<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_25_1442237</id>
	<title>US Not Training Enough Cybersecurity Experts</title>
	<author>CmdrTaco</author>
	<datestamp>1269532860000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>graychase writes <i>"Homeland Security's cybersecurity director, Richard Marshall, warns that universities <a href="http://www.esecurityplanet.com/features/article.php/3872626/US-Faces-Cyber-Security-Gap-Without-Training-Education.htm">aren't turning out enough cybersecurity experts</a> and urges greater scholarship funding. 'Look at all the great football and basketball programs. They're all on scholarships. They're not playing for fun &mdash; they're playing for money.'"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>graychase writes " Homeland Security 's cybersecurity director , Richard Marshall , warns that universities are n't turning out enough cybersecurity experts and urges greater scholarship funding .
'Look at all the great football and basketball programs .
They 're all on scholarships .
They 're not playing for fun    they 're playing for money .
' "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>graychase writes "Homeland Security's cybersecurity director, Richard Marshall, warns that universities aren't turning out enough cybersecurity experts and urges greater scholarship funding.
'Look at all the great football and basketball programs.
They're all on scholarships.
They're not playing for fun — they're playing for money.
'"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31616970</id>
	<title>Re:Nice try...</title>
	<author>stonewolf</author>
	<datestamp>1269509100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nope, there is no job security.</p><p>Repeat after me, there is no job security, there is no job security, there is no job security.</p><p>Repeat it a thousand times. Make it you mantra. When you finally believe it you will have changed your life for the better.</p><p>Stonewolf</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nope , there is no job security.Repeat after me , there is no job security , there is no job security , there is no job security.Repeat it a thousand times .
Make it you mantra .
When you finally believe it you will have changed your life for the better.Stonewolf</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nope, there is no job security.Repeat after me, there is no job security, there is no job security, there is no job security.Repeat it a thousand times.
Make it you mantra.
When you finally believe it you will have changed your life for the better.Stonewolf</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31614600</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613726</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, it's about the money</title>
	<author>chill</author>
	<datestamp>1269541800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Compare apples to apples.  Here is an oldie, but a goodie:</p><p>Michael Jordan having 'retired,' with $40 million in<br>endorsements, makes $178,100 a day, working or not.</p><p>If he sleeps 7 hours a night, he makes $52,000 every<br>night while visions of sugarplums dance in his head.</p><p>If he goes to see a movie, it'll cost him $7.00, but<br>he'll make $18,550 while he's there.</p><p>If he decides to have a 5-minute egg, he'll make<br>$618 while boiling it.</p><p>He makes $7,415/hour more than minimum wage.</p><p>If he wanted to save up for a new Acura NSX<br>($90,000) it would take him a whole 12 hours.</p><p>If someone were to hand him his salary and<br>endorsement money, they would have to do it<br>at the rate of $2.00 every second.</p><p>He'll probably pay around $200 for a nice round<br>of golf, but will be reimbursed $33,390 for<br>that round.</p><p>He'll make about $19.60 while watching the 100- meter dash in the<br>Olympics, and about $15,600 during the Boston Marathon .</p><p>This year, he'll make more than twice as much<br>as all U.S. past Presidents for all of their<br>terms combined.</p><p>Amazing isn't it?</p><p>However...<br>If Jordan saves 100\% of his income for the next<br>500 years, he'll still have less than Bill Gates has<br>at this very moment.</p><p>Game over. Nerd wins<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.....</p><p>* * *</p><p>Now compare your average mid-level technical employee vs the jock who majored in sports and see what is what.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Compare apples to apples .
Here is an oldie , but a goodie : Michael Jordan having 'retired, ' with $ 40 million inendorsements , makes $ 178,100 a day , working or not.If he sleeps 7 hours a night , he makes $ 52,000 everynight while visions of sugarplums dance in his head.If he goes to see a movie , it 'll cost him $ 7.00 , buthe 'll make $ 18,550 while he 's there.If he decides to have a 5-minute egg , he 'll make $ 618 while boiling it.He makes $ 7,415/hour more than minimum wage.If he wanted to save up for a new Acura NSX ( $ 90,000 ) it would take him a whole 12 hours.If someone were to hand him his salary andendorsement money , they would have to do itat the rate of $ 2.00 every second.He 'll probably pay around $ 200 for a nice roundof golf , but will be reimbursed $ 33,390 forthat round.He 'll make about $ 19.60 while watching the 100- meter dash in theOlympics , and about $ 15,600 during the Boston Marathon .This year , he 'll make more than twice as muchas all U.S. past Presidents for all of theirterms combined.Amazing is n't it ? However...If Jordan saves 100 \ % of his income for the next500 years , he 'll still have less than Bill Gates hasat this very moment.Game over .
Nerd wins ..... * * * Now compare your average mid-level technical employee vs the jock who majored in sports and see what is what .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Compare apples to apples.
Here is an oldie, but a goodie:Michael Jordan having 'retired,' with $40 million inendorsements, makes $178,100 a day, working or not.If he sleeps 7 hours a night, he makes $52,000 everynight while visions of sugarplums dance in his head.If he goes to see a movie, it'll cost him $7.00, buthe'll make $18,550 while he's there.If he decides to have a 5-minute egg, he'll make$618 while boiling it.He makes $7,415/hour more than minimum wage.If he wanted to save up for a new Acura NSX($90,000) it would take him a whole 12 hours.If someone were to hand him his salary andendorsement money, they would have to do itat the rate of $2.00 every second.He'll probably pay around $200 for a nice roundof golf, but will be reimbursed $33,390 forthat round.He'll make about $19.60 while watching the 100- meter dash in theOlympics, and about $15,600 during the Boston Marathon .This year, he'll make more than twice as muchas all U.S. past Presidents for all of theirterms combined.Amazing isn't it?However...If Jordan saves 100\% of his income for the next500 years, he'll still have less than Bill Gates hasat this very moment.Game over.
Nerd wins .....* * *Now compare your average mid-level technical employee vs the jock who majored in sports and see what is what.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612142</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613416</id>
	<title>Re:They're not seeing a primary source.</title>
	<author>Simulant</author>
	<datestamp>1269540960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Most importantly for you, probably, is that they already have expensive clearances.  A clearance appears to be worth more than experience to many defense contractors.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>    Most importantly for you , probably , is that they already have expensive clearances .
A clearance appears to be worth more than experience to many defense contractors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
    Most importantly for you, probably, is that they already have expensive clearances.
A clearance appears to be worth more than experience to many defense contractors.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612124</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31614600</id>
	<title>Re:Nice try...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269544560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>your only job security is the skilled application of your craft</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>your only job security is the skilled application of your craft</tokentext>
<sentencetext>your only job security is the skilled application of your craft</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31615902</id>
	<title>Age Issues</title>
	<author>sjanich</author>
	<datestamp>1269548760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>DHS has lots of Cybersecurity job postings.</p><p>Here's the catch:</p><p>If you have spent the last 20years of your post-college professional IT life working in different combinations over time of systems administrator, network engineer, IT project manager, programmer on security, security-ish, and non-security projects and day-to-day IT work, then the you - the 40+ year old - are deemed to be to fucking old to take a new job at DHS/USGOV as as an IT Security Specialist.</p><p>So, that cuts the pool of those available to USGOV by 40-60\%.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>DHS has lots of Cybersecurity job postings.Here 's the catch : If you have spent the last 20years of your post-college professional IT life working in different combinations over time of systems administrator , network engineer , IT project manager , programmer on security , security-ish , and non-security projects and day-to-day IT work , then the you - the 40 + year old - are deemed to be to fucking old to take a new job at DHS/USGOV as as an IT Security Specialist.So , that cuts the pool of those available to USGOV by 40-60 \ % .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>DHS has lots of Cybersecurity job postings.Here's the catch:If you have spent the last 20years of your post-college professional IT life working in different combinations over time of systems administrator, network engineer, IT project manager, programmer on security, security-ish, and non-security projects and day-to-day IT work, then the you - the 40+ year old - are deemed to be to fucking old to take a new job at DHS/USGOV as as an IT Security Specialist.So, that cuts the pool of those available to USGOV by 40-60\%.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612142</id>
	<title>Yeah, it's about the money</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269536940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Starting salary at IBM is about $50k.<br>Additional Compensation:<br>---Employee Stock Purchase Plan.<br>---401k<br>---Options (maybe)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Pre-requisites:  Atleast 4 years of college, optional advanced degrees. Experience with security and engineering solutions.</p><p>Starting Salary of Lebron James: ~$4m per year.<br>Additional Compensation:<br>---$90m Nike Contract<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Pre-requisites:  Ability to dribble and score with a basketball better than any other kid in high school.</p><p>Which would you choose?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Starting salary at IBM is about $ 50k.Additional Compensation : ---Employee Stock Purchase Plan.---401k---Options ( maybe )     Pre-requisites : Atleast 4 years of college , optional advanced degrees .
Experience with security and engineering solutions.Starting Salary of Lebron James : ~ $ 4m per year.Additional Compensation : --- $ 90m Nike Contract       Pre-requisites : Ability to dribble and score with a basketball better than any other kid in high school.Which would you choose ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Starting salary at IBM is about $50k.Additional Compensation:---Employee Stock Purchase Plan.---401k---Options (maybe)
    Pre-requisites:  Atleast 4 years of college, optional advanced degrees.
Experience with security and engineering solutions.Starting Salary of Lebron James: ~$4m per year.Additional Compensation:---$90m Nike Contract
      Pre-requisites:  Ability to dribble and score with a basketball better than any other kid in high school.Which would you choose?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612128</id>
	<title>All it takes...</title>
	<author>garyisabusyguy</author>
	<datestamp>1269536940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...is state subsidized computer "crime" education.</p><p>Israel has had state sponsored training for decades and looky looky they have plenty of forensic experts...</p><p>In the US we threaten anybody that touches these tools with prison and let the mpaa sue Professors that attempt to study anything remotely like security.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...is state subsidized computer " crime " education.Israel has had state sponsored training for decades and looky looky they have plenty of forensic experts...In the US we threaten anybody that touches these tools with prison and let the mpaa sue Professors that attempt to study anything remotely like security .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...is state subsidized computer "crime" education.Israel has had state sponsored training for decades and looky looky they have plenty of forensic experts...In the US we threaten anybody that touches these tools with prison and let the mpaa sue Professors that attempt to study anything remotely like security.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612478</id>
	<title>Universities aren't taking it seriously either</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269537960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>At my current university, there are two undergraduate networking courses and one undergraduate security course. There's one network course in the graduate curriculum, but that's meant as a recap of the two undergrad ones if you didn't get your undergrad here. I would love to load up on network and security classes, but there's simply none being offered.</htmltext>
<tokenext>At my current university , there are two undergraduate networking courses and one undergraduate security course .
There 's one network course in the graduate curriculum , but that 's meant as a recap of the two undergrad ones if you did n't get your undergrad here .
I would love to load up on network and security classes , but there 's simply none being offered .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At my current university, there are two undergraduate networking courses and one undergraduate security course.
There's one network course in the graduate curriculum, but that's meant as a recap of the two undergrad ones if you didn't get your undergrad here.
I would love to load up on network and security classes, but there's simply none being offered.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613680</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, it's about the money</title>
	<author>bughunter</author>
	<datestamp>1269541680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I believe the point was more about influence on the career choices of youth, not statistical likelihood.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I believe the point was more about influence on the career choices of youth , not statistical likelihood .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I believe the point was more about influence on the career choices of youth, not statistical likelihood.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612408</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31626468</id>
	<title>Moron</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269619140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are plenty of cybersecurity experts in the us.  We just don't do drug testing and put up with invasive, privacy busting background checks.  Not to mention the fact that the us govt doesn't pay worth a crap.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are plenty of cybersecurity experts in the us .
We just do n't do drug testing and put up with invasive , privacy busting background checks .
Not to mention the fact that the us govt does n't pay worth a crap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are plenty of cybersecurity experts in the us.
We just don't do drug testing and put up with invasive, privacy busting background checks.
Not to mention the fact that the us govt doesn't pay worth a crap.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613302</id>
	<title>Richard Marshall is a lawyer</title>
	<author>Animats</author>
	<datestamp>1269540600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Of course people aren't going into this field.  Look who's in charge.
</p><p>
This Richard Marshall, "Director of Global Cyber Security Management, Departent (sic) of Homeland Security", is a lawyer. From LinkedIn, his undergraduate degree, from The Citadel, is in history, English &amp; political science.  He then went to Creighton and Georgetown University law schools.
</p><p>
The last person in that job who knew what he was doing was <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amit\_Yoran" title="wikipedia.org">Amit Yoran</a> [wikipedia.org], who had a computer science degree. He kept saying that Microsoft operating systems were the big problem, and was sidelined for that.  He was replaced by Cisco's lobbyist.
</p><p>
What we have now is a lawyer making policy recommendations that effectively mean doing nothing. That's "Homeland Security".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course people are n't going into this field .
Look who 's in charge .
This Richard Marshall , " Director of Global Cyber Security Management , Departent ( sic ) of Homeland Security " , is a lawyer .
From LinkedIn , his undergraduate degree , from The Citadel , is in history , English &amp; political science .
He then went to Creighton and Georgetown University law schools .
The last person in that job who knew what he was doing was Amit Yoran [ wikipedia.org ] , who had a computer science degree .
He kept saying that Microsoft operating systems were the big problem , and was sidelined for that .
He was replaced by Cisco 's lobbyist .
What we have now is a lawyer making policy recommendations that effectively mean doing nothing .
That 's " Homeland Security " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Of course people aren't going into this field.
Look who's in charge.
This Richard Marshall, "Director of Global Cyber Security Management, Departent (sic) of Homeland Security", is a lawyer.
From LinkedIn, his undergraduate degree, from The Citadel, is in history, English &amp; political science.
He then went to Creighton and Georgetown University law schools.
The last person in that job who knew what he was doing was Amit Yoran [wikipedia.org], who had a computer science degree.
He kept saying that Microsoft operating systems were the big problem, and was sidelined for that.
He was replaced by Cisco's lobbyist.
What we have now is a lawyer making policy recommendations that effectively mean doing nothing.
That's "Homeland Security".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612930</id>
	<title>Cyber Corps</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269539340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The Gov has had this program going for over 10 years:<br>"The Federal Cyber Corps Program<br>The Cyber Corps Program is open to students currently completing their junior year of undergraduate school or first-year of graduate school. In addition to a stipend of approximately $1,000 per month, the Program pays for each student's tuition for two years, room and board, and travel to conferences.</p><p>After one year of training, students complete a summer internship in a federal agency, learning first-hand about computer security issues and putting into practice what they've learned in class. By the end of the second year students earn an undergraduate or graduate degree in computer science in addition to multiple federal-level computer security certificates as endorsed by the Committee on National Security Systems (CNSS)."</p><p>http://www.justice.gov/jmd/ocio/cybercorps.htm</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The Gov has had this program going for over 10 years : " The Federal Cyber Corps ProgramThe Cyber Corps Program is open to students currently completing their junior year of undergraduate school or first-year of graduate school .
In addition to a stipend of approximately $ 1,000 per month , the Program pays for each student 's tuition for two years , room and board , and travel to conferences.After one year of training , students complete a summer internship in a federal agency , learning first-hand about computer security issues and putting into practice what they 've learned in class .
By the end of the second year students earn an undergraduate or graduate degree in computer science in addition to multiple federal-level computer security certificates as endorsed by the Committee on National Security Systems ( CNSS ) .
" http : //www.justice.gov/jmd/ocio/cybercorps.htm</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Gov has had this program going for over 10 years:"The Federal Cyber Corps ProgramThe Cyber Corps Program is open to students currently completing their junior year of undergraduate school or first-year of graduate school.
In addition to a stipend of approximately $1,000 per month, the Program pays for each student's tuition for two years, room and board, and travel to conferences.After one year of training, students complete a summer internship in a federal agency, learning first-hand about computer security issues and putting into practice what they've learned in class.
By the end of the second year students earn an undergraduate or graduate degree in computer science in addition to multiple federal-level computer security certificates as endorsed by the Committee on National Security Systems (CNSS).
"http://www.justice.gov/jmd/ocio/cybercorps.htm</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31622050</id>
	<title>Simple Solution</title>
	<author>Tablizer</author>
	<datestamp>1269538680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My company simply outsourced IT security to Nigeri~a &amp;'`~7;\% GET V1AGRa Fr33!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My company simply outsourced IT security to Nigeri ~ a &amp; ' ` ~ 7 ; \ % GET V1AGRa Fr33 !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My company simply outsourced IT security to Nigeri~a &amp;'`~7;\% GET V1AGRa Fr33!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612408</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, it's about the money</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269537720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Lebron James is one of the best basketball players ever to live, not just some run-of-the-mill pickup player.
<p>
Let's make a slightly more appropriate comparison: Samuel Palmisano, CEO of IBM, made $1.8 million last year, plus a bonus of $4.75 million and $13.5 million in stock options. So really, the top performers in tech don't really do so poorly either, especially considering that their career is probably a bit longer than Lebron's.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lebron James is one of the best basketball players ever to live , not just some run-of-the-mill pickup player .
Let 's make a slightly more appropriate comparison : Samuel Palmisano , CEO of IBM , made $ 1.8 million last year , plus a bonus of $ 4.75 million and $ 13.5 million in stock options .
So really , the top performers in tech do n't really do so poorly either , especially considering that their career is probably a bit longer than Lebron 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lebron James is one of the best basketball players ever to live, not just some run-of-the-mill pickup player.
Let's make a slightly more appropriate comparison: Samuel Palmisano, CEO of IBM, made $1.8 million last year, plus a bonus of $4.75 million and $13.5 million in stock options.
So really, the top performers in tech don't really do so poorly either, especially considering that their career is probably a bit longer than Lebron's.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612142</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613746</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, it's about the money</title>
	<author>timeOday</author>
	<datestamp>1269541920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't believe the starting salary at IBM for a technical position could be only about $50K, is it?
<p>
That's what it was 11 years ago when I interviewed there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't believe the starting salary at IBM for a technical position could be only about $ 50K , is it ?
That 's what it was 11 years ago when I interviewed there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't believe the starting salary at IBM for a technical position could be only about $50K, is it?
That's what it was 11 years ago when I interviewed there.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612142</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612874</id>
	<title>Re:Training?</title>
	<author>jhoegl</author>
	<datestamp>1269539100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree, the movie Hackers is a great representation of Cyber Security Experts.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree , the movie Hackers is a great representation of Cyber Security Experts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree, the movie Hackers is a great representation of Cyber Security Experts.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612042</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31614154</id>
	<title>Its not in the culture</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269543000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In the American culture, its the norm to take someone who was born at the right time of the year (for hockey thats January, Febuary or March, for Baseball thats August or September), realise that these kids "are so much bigger than other kids in their grade"...because they are, they were born at the right time of year, give them more playing time and encourage them to play, give them better coaching  and better equipment and the next year its the same (still bigger than a kid 10 or 11 months younger than they are) and give them more opportunities, then give them scholorships to go to college, and then pay them crazy amounts of money on the job.  In computers, people pay their way the whole way, they may get labelled 'geek' in school (and not in any kind of good way), they encourage those in sports to attack them at school and bully them 'to help with the sports players self image'.  Then the 'geeks' finish school, they take on manual labor jobs to pay for higher education.  They are berated because they are not as fast nor as strong as the 'athletic' employees.  They persevere, go to college, put out 50 resumes to get 1 call back working in something still menial 'clean the computer' vacuum the dust out of them, etc.  But hey its a start.  They can then start paying off the student loans for college (loans plus interest).  After graduating from computer janitor to actually doing something to affect the operation of the computer, they can expect to be berated by staff for the staff members mistakes, and be paid accordingly.  Who wouldn't want to jump in and be an overworked, underpaid, unappreciated security guy, who can be blamed for 'ruining the company'? And after 'saving the company' be told 'if you had done your job in the first place we wouldn't have to pay you overtime, so we won't'.  I can see guys lining up for this.  Ready and waiting to be quizzed "Do you save security 2.10A with extra extension.?"  Those without the extra extension need not apply!  And the latest software upgrades (the ones that came out last week), you should have 5 years experience with them!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In the American culture , its the norm to take someone who was born at the right time of the year ( for hockey thats January , Febuary or March , for Baseball thats August or September ) , realise that these kids " are so much bigger than other kids in their grade " ...because they are , they were born at the right time of year , give them more playing time and encourage them to play , give them better coaching and better equipment and the next year its the same ( still bigger than a kid 10 or 11 months younger than they are ) and give them more opportunities , then give them scholorships to go to college , and then pay them crazy amounts of money on the job .
In computers , people pay their way the whole way , they may get labelled 'geek ' in school ( and not in any kind of good way ) , they encourage those in sports to attack them at school and bully them 'to help with the sports players self image' .
Then the 'geeks ' finish school , they take on manual labor jobs to pay for higher education .
They are berated because they are not as fast nor as strong as the 'athletic ' employees .
They persevere , go to college , put out 50 resumes to get 1 call back working in something still menial 'clean the computer ' vacuum the dust out of them , etc .
But hey its a start .
They can then start paying off the student loans for college ( loans plus interest ) .
After graduating from computer janitor to actually doing something to affect the operation of the computer , they can expect to be berated by staff for the staff members mistakes , and be paid accordingly .
Who would n't want to jump in and be an overworked , underpaid , unappreciated security guy , who can be blamed for 'ruining the company ' ?
And after 'saving the company ' be told 'if you had done your job in the first place we would n't have to pay you overtime , so we wo n't' .
I can see guys lining up for this .
Ready and waiting to be quizzed " Do you save security 2.10A with extra extension. ?
" Those without the extra extension need not apply !
And the latest software upgrades ( the ones that came out last week ) , you should have 5 years experience with them !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the American culture, its the norm to take someone who was born at the right time of the year (for hockey thats January, Febuary or March, for Baseball thats August or September), realise that these kids "are so much bigger than other kids in their grade"...because they are, they were born at the right time of year, give them more playing time and encourage them to play, give them better coaching  and better equipment and the next year its the same (still bigger than a kid 10 or 11 months younger than they are) and give them more opportunities, then give them scholorships to go to college, and then pay them crazy amounts of money on the job.
In computers, people pay their way the whole way, they may get labelled 'geek' in school (and not in any kind of good way), they encourage those in sports to attack them at school and bully them 'to help with the sports players self image'.
Then the 'geeks' finish school, they take on manual labor jobs to pay for higher education.
They are berated because they are not as fast nor as strong as the 'athletic' employees.
They persevere, go to college, put out 50 resumes to get 1 call back working in something still menial 'clean the computer' vacuum the dust out of them, etc.
But hey its a start.
They can then start paying off the student loans for college (loans plus interest).
After graduating from computer janitor to actually doing something to affect the operation of the computer, they can expect to be berated by staff for the staff members mistakes, and be paid accordingly.
Who wouldn't want to jump in and be an overworked, underpaid, unappreciated security guy, who can be blamed for 'ruining the company'?
And after 'saving the company' be told 'if you had done your job in the first place we wouldn't have to pay you overtime, so we won't'.
I can see guys lining up for this.
Ready and waiting to be quizzed "Do you save security 2.10A with extra extension.?
"  Those without the extra extension need not apply!
And the latest software upgrades (the ones that came out last week), you should have 5 years experience with them!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612082</id>
	<title>No problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269536820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm sure the US can just hire some of those well-trained and eager Chinese cybersecurity experts who seem friendly and anxious to come across on H1 visa.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sure the US can just hire some of those well-trained and eager Chinese cybersecurity experts who seem friendly and anxious to come across on H1 visa .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sure the US can just hire some of those well-trained and eager Chinese cybersecurity experts who seem friendly and anxious to come across on H1 visa.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612106</id>
	<title>Re:Training?</title>
	<author>Frosty Piss</author>
	<datestamp>1269536820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Offer hookers and machine guns.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Offer hookers and machine guns .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Offer hookers and machine guns.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612042</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613548</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, it's about the money</title>
	<author>The Mighty Buzzard</author>
	<datestamp>1269541320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>True, but Lebron's job is way better at attracting slutty hotties.  Gotta have your priorities.</htmltext>
<tokenext>True , but Lebron 's job is way better at attracting slutty hotties .
Got ta have your priorities .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>True, but Lebron's job is way better at attracting slutty hotties.
Gotta have your priorities.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612408</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612556</id>
	<title>It's hard to learn</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269538260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>when the government and industry decide to move away from making systems and software increasingly more secure and instead focus on draconian laws with punitive sentences that start at a decade for benign acts regardless of intent or whether you informed the target of their weakness and how to correct it.</p><p>Security through sentencing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>when the government and industry decide to move away from making systems and software increasingly more secure and instead focus on draconian laws with punitive sentences that start at a decade for benign acts regardless of intent or whether you informed the target of their weakness and how to correct it.Security through sentencing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>when the government and industry decide to move away from making systems and software increasingly more secure and instead focus on draconian laws with punitive sentences that start at a decade for benign acts regardless of intent or whether you informed the target of their weakness and how to correct it.Security through sentencing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612484</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, it's about the money</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269537960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I see your point but the contrast isn't always that stark.<br> <br>I recently quit my job as an IT Manager for a large resort. I was expelled from school in the 8th grade and never got a GED. When I quit I was making $50k. Never a day of college in my life.<br> <br>There is a small cache of people out there that hold many things higher on the ladder than money that also put their convictions into practice..... of course, if I would have had a wife and children, I probably wouldn't have made the decision to quit--- just for their sake... but since it was just me, I felt that although I did a great deal of work there, that my 'work' didn't really qualify in the way I wanted it to... What I am saying is that I felt it was wrong for me, being 24 years old, to be making over double that of which so many people there, double my age were making, when in fact they put in more physical work in 1 single day than I did in an entire week. It became a daily struggle to have to fend off the mental insinuations ushered in by the rest of the management there that I was 'better' than the other people simply because my skillset allowed me to circumvent hard honest labor while exceeding the contemptuous honest laborers in monetary gain.<br> <br>What I am trying to say is that people making millions of dollars for contributing so little to society are doing a massive disservice to themselves in the long run. When they have to look back on their lives I am pretty sure it is a tough experience if they are honest with themselves-- and the alternative is just lying to yourself which also takes its toll on you, mentally. No amount of money can ever satisfy the troubled, guilty conscience. Ever wonder why so many 'successful' people are miserable bitter substance abusers?<br> <br>About a year after quitting that job I read this quote and it expressed my feelings very well:<blockquote><div><p>Governor Washburn of Wisconsin in his annual message, January 9, 1873, declared: "Some law seems to be required to break up the schools where gamblers are made. These are everywhere. Even the church (unwittingly, no doubt) is sometimes found doing the work of the devil. Gift concerts, gift enterprises and raffles, sometimes in aid of religious or charitable objects, but often for less worthy purposes, lotteries, prize packages, etc., are all devices to obtain money without value received. Nothing is so demoralizing or intoxicating, particularly to the young, as the acquisition of money or property without labor. Respectable people engaging in these change enterprises, and easing their consciences with the reflection that the money is to go to a good object, it is not strange that the youth of the state should so often fall into the habits which the excitement of games of hazard is almost certain to engender."</p></div></blockquote></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I see your point but the contrast is n't always that stark .
I recently quit my job as an IT Manager for a large resort .
I was expelled from school in the 8th grade and never got a GED .
When I quit I was making $ 50k .
Never a day of college in my life .
There is a small cache of people out there that hold many things higher on the ladder than money that also put their convictions into practice..... of course , if I would have had a wife and children , I probably would n't have made the decision to quit--- just for their sake... but since it was just me , I felt that although I did a great deal of work there , that my 'work ' did n't really qualify in the way I wanted it to... What I am saying is that I felt it was wrong for me , being 24 years old , to be making over double that of which so many people there , double my age were making , when in fact they put in more physical work in 1 single day than I did in an entire week .
It became a daily struggle to have to fend off the mental insinuations ushered in by the rest of the management there that I was 'better ' than the other people simply because my skillset allowed me to circumvent hard honest labor while exceeding the contemptuous honest laborers in monetary gain .
What I am trying to say is that people making millions of dollars for contributing so little to society are doing a massive disservice to themselves in the long run .
When they have to look back on their lives I am pretty sure it is a tough experience if they are honest with themselves-- and the alternative is just lying to yourself which also takes its toll on you , mentally .
No amount of money can ever satisfy the troubled , guilty conscience .
Ever wonder why so many 'successful ' people are miserable bitter substance abusers ?
About a year after quitting that job I read this quote and it expressed my feelings very well : Governor Washburn of Wisconsin in his annual message , January 9 , 1873 , declared : " Some law seems to be required to break up the schools where gamblers are made .
These are everywhere .
Even the church ( unwittingly , no doubt ) is sometimes found doing the work of the devil .
Gift concerts , gift enterprises and raffles , sometimes in aid of religious or charitable objects , but often for less worthy purposes , lotteries , prize packages , etc. , are all devices to obtain money without value received .
Nothing is so demoralizing or intoxicating , particularly to the young , as the acquisition of money or property without labor .
Respectable people engaging in these change enterprises , and easing their consciences with the reflection that the money is to go to a good object , it is not strange that the youth of the state should so often fall into the habits which the excitement of games of hazard is almost certain to engender .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I see your point but the contrast isn't always that stark.
I recently quit my job as an IT Manager for a large resort.
I was expelled from school in the 8th grade and never got a GED.
When I quit I was making $50k.
Never a day of college in my life.
There is a small cache of people out there that hold many things higher on the ladder than money that also put their convictions into practice..... of course, if I would have had a wife and children, I probably wouldn't have made the decision to quit--- just for their sake... but since it was just me, I felt that although I did a great deal of work there, that my 'work' didn't really qualify in the way I wanted it to... What I am saying is that I felt it was wrong for me, being 24 years old, to be making over double that of which so many people there, double my age were making, when in fact they put in more physical work in 1 single day than I did in an entire week.
It became a daily struggle to have to fend off the mental insinuations ushered in by the rest of the management there that I was 'better' than the other people simply because my skillset allowed me to circumvent hard honest labor while exceeding the contemptuous honest laborers in monetary gain.
What I am trying to say is that people making millions of dollars for contributing so little to society are doing a massive disservice to themselves in the long run.
When they have to look back on their lives I am pretty sure it is a tough experience if they are honest with themselves-- and the alternative is just lying to yourself which also takes its toll on you, mentally.
No amount of money can ever satisfy the troubled, guilty conscience.
Ever wonder why so many 'successful' people are miserable bitter substance abusers?
About a year after quitting that job I read this quote and it expressed my feelings very well:Governor Washburn of Wisconsin in his annual message, January 9, 1873, declared: "Some law seems to be required to break up the schools where gamblers are made.
These are everywhere.
Even the church (unwittingly, no doubt) is sometimes found doing the work of the devil.
Gift concerts, gift enterprises and raffles, sometimes in aid of religious or charitable objects, but often for less worthy purposes, lotteries, prize packages, etc., are all devices to obtain money without value received.
Nothing is so demoralizing or intoxicating, particularly to the young, as the acquisition of money or property without labor.
Respectable people engaging in these change enterprises, and easing their consciences with the reflection that the money is to go to a good object, it is not strange that the youth of the state should so often fall into the habits which the excitement of games of hazard is almost certain to engender.
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612142</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612124</id>
	<title>They're not seeing a primary source.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269536880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Working in the industry and hiring new Cyber talent on a weekly basis, I'd say that the author's aren't looking in the right place.  We find the best, most talented folks are coming out of the military.  These ladies and gentlemen are very disciplined, highly trained and have real (very real) experience not only within the ranks of military cyber operations, but most also have a good deal of experience in the intelligence community.  They all have a great deal of experience (and preference) with open source tools, but understand the proper application and integration of COTS products as well.  Anyway, my two cents.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Working in the industry and hiring new Cyber talent on a weekly basis , I 'd say that the author 's are n't looking in the right place .
We find the best , most talented folks are coming out of the military .
These ladies and gentlemen are very disciplined , highly trained and have real ( very real ) experience not only within the ranks of military cyber operations , but most also have a good deal of experience in the intelligence community .
They all have a great deal of experience ( and preference ) with open source tools , but understand the proper application and integration of COTS products as well .
Anyway , my two cents .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Working in the industry and hiring new Cyber talent on a weekly basis, I'd say that the author's aren't looking in the right place.
We find the best, most talented folks are coming out of the military.
These ladies and gentlemen are very disciplined, highly trained and have real (very real) experience not only within the ranks of military cyber operations, but most also have a good deal of experience in the intelligence community.
They all have a great deal of experience (and preference) with open source tools, but understand the proper application and integration of COTS products as well.
Anyway, my two cents.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31617706</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, it's about the money</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269511800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>yahoo disagrees</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>yahoo disagrees</tokentext>
<sentencetext>yahoo disagrees</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613548</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31614774</id>
	<title>I'm pretty sure...</title>
	<author>Blue6</author>
	<datestamp>1269545040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Most of these stories are puff pieces done for or due to the FUD big consulting companies like CSC, Lockheed, Northup put out to the Bureaucrats in order to keep billing rates high. I have over 10 years of networking experience and a MS in Info Sec from a DHS sponsored school. I have applied multiple times to various positions and have never received a response back.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most of these stories are puff pieces done for or due to the FUD big consulting companies like CSC , Lockheed , Northup put out to the Bureaucrats in order to keep billing rates high .
I have over 10 years of networking experience and a MS in Info Sec from a DHS sponsored school .
I have applied multiple times to various positions and have never received a response back .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most of these stories are puff pieces done for or due to the FUD big consulting companies like CSC, Lockheed, Northup put out to the Bureaucrats in order to keep billing rates high.
I have over 10 years of networking experience and a MS in Info Sec from a DHS sponsored school.
I have applied multiple times to various positions and have never received a response back.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612072</id>
	<title>Nice try...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269536760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nice try, but the public prefer jock-sniffing to everything else.</p><p>Besides, why train more people and drive down the wages of those who had the initiative to learn on their own? Businesses exist to fuck over their employees, so said employees should not dilute their advantage.</p><p>Your only "job security" is hoarding knowledge.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nice try , but the public prefer jock-sniffing to everything else.Besides , why train more people and drive down the wages of those who had the initiative to learn on their own ?
Businesses exist to fuck over their employees , so said employees should not dilute their advantage.Your only " job security " is hoarding knowledge .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nice try, but the public prefer jock-sniffing to everything else.Besides, why train more people and drive down the wages of those who had the initiative to learn on their own?
Businesses exist to fuck over their employees, so said employees should not dilute their advantage.Your only "job security" is hoarding knowledge.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612080</id>
	<title>Easy solution</title>
	<author>Skyshadow</author>
	<datestamp>1269536820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>We'll just recruit our cybersecurity from the obvious source: China.
<br> <br>
I, er, hear they may have some relevant experience.</htmltext>
<tokenext>We 'll just recruit our cybersecurity from the obvious source : China .
I , er , hear they may have some relevant experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We'll just recruit our cybersecurity from the obvious source: China.
I, er, hear they may have some relevant experience.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31615716</id>
	<title>Define Cyber Security</title>
	<author>mordred99</author>
	<datestamp>1269548160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You have to define Cyber Security.  Do you mean Code Hacking, Network Sniffing, Biometric Algorithm Creation, new Theoretical Application Creation, Compliance Program Expert, Firewall Manager, etc.  Each different job requires a different skill set.  If you want someone that can do all of these, then you have to pay the proper salary for that person, wait 10 years after they graduate so they have the skills to do each of those jobs, etc.  Currently the Cyber jobs I look for want all of those things, plus 10 years experience, when the fields have only existed for a few years. Define Cyber Security - and then define what you are willing to compensate and define the requirements then you will be able to make broad statements about enough people in the field to fill a job requirement.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You have to define Cyber Security .
Do you mean Code Hacking , Network Sniffing , Biometric Algorithm Creation , new Theoretical Application Creation , Compliance Program Expert , Firewall Manager , etc .
Each different job requires a different skill set .
If you want someone that can do all of these , then you have to pay the proper salary for that person , wait 10 years after they graduate so they have the skills to do each of those jobs , etc .
Currently the Cyber jobs I look for want all of those things , plus 10 years experience , when the fields have only existed for a few years .
Define Cyber Security - and then define what you are willing to compensate and define the requirements then you will be able to make broad statements about enough people in the field to fill a job requirement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You have to define Cyber Security.
Do you mean Code Hacking, Network Sniffing, Biometric Algorithm Creation, new Theoretical Application Creation, Compliance Program Expert, Firewall Manager, etc.
Each different job requires a different skill set.
If you want someone that can do all of these, then you have to pay the proper salary for that person, wait 10 years after they graduate so they have the skills to do each of those jobs, etc.
Currently the Cyber jobs I look for want all of those things, plus 10 years experience, when the fields have only existed for a few years.
Define Cyber Security - and then define what you are willing to compensate and define the requirements then you will be able to make broad statements about enough people in the field to fill a job requirement.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613542</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, it's about the money</title>
	<author>Bigbutt</author>
	<datestamp>1269541320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, considering most folks don't really work <b>for</b> IBM (most are contractors subject to dismissal at a moment's notice), I'd go with Basketball.</p><p>[John]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , considering most folks do n't really work for IBM ( most are contractors subject to dismissal at a moment 's notice ) , I 'd go with Basketball .
[ John ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, considering most folks don't really work for IBM (most are contractors subject to dismissal at a moment's notice), I'd go with Basketball.
[John]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612142</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31615296</id>
	<title>Re:Universities aren't taking it seriously either</title>
	<author>element-o.p.</author>
	<datestamp>1269546780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>They actually offered a &quot;computer security&quot; course at the University from which I earned my Bachelor's Degree.  Unfortunately, the &quot;computer security&quot; course they offered was a monumental waste of time.  We spent almost the entire semester learning about encryption algorithms (RSA, DSA, etc.) and coding these algorithms.  While it certainly is important to understand encryption, there is a *lot* more to computer security than being able to implement an RSA encryption algorithm.</htmltext>
<tokenext>They actually offered a " computer security " course at the University from which I earned my Bachelor 's Degree .
Unfortunately , the " computer security " course they offered was a monumental waste of time .
We spent almost the entire semester learning about encryption algorithms ( RSA , DSA , etc .
) and coding these algorithms .
While it certainly is important to understand encryption , there is a * lot * more to computer security than being able to implement an RSA encryption algorithm .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They actually offered a "computer security" course at the University from which I earned my Bachelor's Degree.
Unfortunately, the "computer security" course they offered was a monumental waste of time.
We spent almost the entire semester learning about encryption algorithms (RSA, DSA, etc.
) and coding these algorithms.
While it certainly is important to understand encryption, there is a *lot* more to computer security than being able to implement an RSA encryption algorithm.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31627482</id>
	<title>Where have all the hackers gone?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269623220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://strydehax.blogspot.com/2010/03/where-have-all-hackers-gone.html" title="blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://strydehax.blogspot.com/2010/03/where-have-all-hackers-gone.html</a> [blogspot.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //strydehax.blogspot.com/2010/03/where-have-all-hackers-gone.html [ blogspot.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://strydehax.blogspot.com/2010/03/where-have-all-hackers-gone.html [blogspot.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613140</id>
	<title>That's not the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269540060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are plenty of people graduating with computer security degrees these days; I'm one of them.  There are quite a few programs already offered by various colleges to attract more security students to their program.  RIT, for example, offers what essentially amounts to a free ride for anyone who is willing to work for the NSA after they get out.  I live in Texas, so I know from personal experience that Texas A&amp;M, UTSA, and a plethora of smaller universities and community colleges are cranking out security graduates non-stop.  The CCDC (Collegiate Cyber Defense Competition) is a pretty big deal in this area.<br> <br>The real problem is that very few 20-somethings in this field want to work for the government, let alone the DHS of all places.  Anyone who is coming out with a security degree is obviously going to be active on the internet every day, and I shouldn't have to explain the general feeling towards government cyber-security practices among the internet crowd on Slashdot, of all places.  Even here in south Texas, where you'd expect the most support for agencies such as the DHS, I've never met a security major that is at all interested in working for the government, despite what essentially amounts to begging and pleading to take a job there.  I know that I probably couldn't look myself in the mirror every day if I worked for the DHS or NSA as a security expert.  Protecting our nation's computer infrastructure is one thing, but there is no one in the field who believes that's actually all that our government does with its security staff.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are plenty of people graduating with computer security degrees these days ; I 'm one of them .
There are quite a few programs already offered by various colleges to attract more security students to their program .
RIT , for example , offers what essentially amounts to a free ride for anyone who is willing to work for the NSA after they get out .
I live in Texas , so I know from personal experience that Texas A&amp;M , UTSA , and a plethora of smaller universities and community colleges are cranking out security graduates non-stop .
The CCDC ( Collegiate Cyber Defense Competition ) is a pretty big deal in this area .
The real problem is that very few 20-somethings in this field want to work for the government , let alone the DHS of all places .
Anyone who is coming out with a security degree is obviously going to be active on the internet every day , and I should n't have to explain the general feeling towards government cyber-security practices among the internet crowd on Slashdot , of all places .
Even here in south Texas , where you 'd expect the most support for agencies such as the DHS , I 've never met a security major that is at all interested in working for the government , despite what essentially amounts to begging and pleading to take a job there .
I know that I probably could n't look myself in the mirror every day if I worked for the DHS or NSA as a security expert .
Protecting our nation 's computer infrastructure is one thing , but there is no one in the field who believes that 's actually all that our government does with its security staff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are plenty of people graduating with computer security degrees these days; I'm one of them.
There are quite a few programs already offered by various colleges to attract more security students to their program.
RIT, for example, offers what essentially amounts to a free ride for anyone who is willing to work for the NSA after they get out.
I live in Texas, so I know from personal experience that Texas A&amp;M, UTSA, and a plethora of smaller universities and community colleges are cranking out security graduates non-stop.
The CCDC (Collegiate Cyber Defense Competition) is a pretty big deal in this area.
The real problem is that very few 20-somethings in this field want to work for the government, let alone the DHS of all places.
Anyone who is coming out with a security degree is obviously going to be active on the internet every day, and I shouldn't have to explain the general feeling towards government cyber-security practices among the internet crowd on Slashdot, of all places.
Even here in south Texas, where you'd expect the most support for agencies such as the DHS, I've never met a security major that is at all interested in working for the government, despite what essentially amounts to begging and pleading to take a job there.
I know that I probably couldn't look myself in the mirror every day if I worked for the DHS or NSA as a security expert.
Protecting our nation's computer infrastructure is one thing, but there is no one in the field who believes that's actually all that our government does with its security staff.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612342</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, it's about the money</title>
	<author>garyisabusyguy</author>
	<datestamp>1269537540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sure... sure... However, IBM has about 400,000 employees, probably bringin on a few thousand out of each graduating class.</p><p>There is usually only one or two 'Lebrons' that show up in a graduating class.</p><p>IF we taught mathmatics and statistics to our children, then the choice to go with the (relatively) certain tech job over the (totally) unlikely NBA career would be obvious.</p><p>Unfortunately we don't, and our youth suffer as a result</p><p>btw, anybody seen 'Hoop Dreams'?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure... sure... However , IBM has about 400,000 employees , probably bringin on a few thousand out of each graduating class.There is usually only one or two 'Lebrons ' that show up in a graduating class.IF we taught mathmatics and statistics to our children , then the choice to go with the ( relatively ) certain tech job over the ( totally ) unlikely NBA career would be obvious.Unfortunately we do n't , and our youth suffer as a resultbtw , anybody seen 'Hoop Dreams ' ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure... sure... However, IBM has about 400,000 employees, probably bringin on a few thousand out of each graduating class.There is usually only one or two 'Lebrons' that show up in a graduating class.IF we taught mathmatics and statistics to our children, then the choice to go with the (relatively) certain tech job over the (totally) unlikely NBA career would be obvious.Unfortunately we don't, and our youth suffer as a resultbtw, anybody seen 'Hoop Dreams'?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612142</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31615772</id>
	<title>Re:Nice try...</title>
	<author>couchslug</author>
	<datestamp>1269548340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"your only job security is the skilled application of your craft"</p><p>In a perfect world, honest virtue is rewarded.</p><p>In the real world, doing what your employer wants is what give him reason to keep you. What that is can be professional or not, and can be utterly divorced from anything one might regard as common sense.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" your only job security is the skilled application of your craft " In a perfect world , honest virtue is rewarded.In the real world , doing what your employer wants is what give him reason to keep you .
What that is can be professional or not , and can be utterly divorced from anything one might regard as common sense .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"your only job security is the skilled application of your craft"In a perfect world, honest virtue is rewarded.In the real world, doing what your employer wants is what give him reason to keep you.
What that is can be professional or not, and can be utterly divorced from anything one might regard as common sense.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31614600</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31619240</id>
	<title>Looking in the wrong places</title>
	<author>rhythmx</author>
	<datestamp>1269519360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>About 20\% of the best people I know employed as Security Researchers did not even graduate high school, including myself. I see this trending downward as more and more schools now have something of a security curriculum, but its still very much an industry of self-motivated voodoo programming. Universities have always been decent at training operational security people (configuring/monitoring security appliances and policy issues), but I've yet to hear of a school with a good program on vulnerability discovery, exploitation, and reverse engineering code. For me, at least, its much more of a mindset thing more than a skillset thing, which is a lot harder to teach.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>About 20 \ % of the best people I know employed as Security Researchers did not even graduate high school , including myself .
I see this trending downward as more and more schools now have something of a security curriculum , but its still very much an industry of self-motivated voodoo programming .
Universities have always been decent at training operational security people ( configuring/monitoring security appliances and policy issues ) , but I 've yet to hear of a school with a good program on vulnerability discovery , exploitation , and reverse engineering code .
For me , at least , its much more of a mindset thing more than a skillset thing , which is a lot harder to teach .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>About 20\% of the best people I know employed as Security Researchers did not even graduate high school, including myself.
I see this trending downward as more and more schools now have something of a security curriculum, but its still very much an industry of self-motivated voodoo programming.
Universities have always been decent at training operational security people (configuring/monitoring security appliances and policy issues), but I've yet to hear of a school with a good program on vulnerability discovery, exploitation, and reverse engineering code.
For me, at least, its much more of a mindset thing more than a skillset thing, which is a lot harder to teach.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31619286</id>
	<title>Re:Training?</title>
	<author>rhythmx</author>
	<datestamp>1269519600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've seen the NSA recruiting at Defcon and making it a point to say that you would still be accepted even if you had drug convictions. Playing to the crowd for sure<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've seen the NSA recruiting at Defcon and making it a point to say that you would still be accepted even if you had drug convictions .
Playing to the crowd for sure : P</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've seen the NSA recruiting at Defcon and making it a point to say that you would still be accepted even if you had drug convictions.
Playing to the crowd for sure :P</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612042</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612508</id>
	<title>Sports = Big bucks... for the school</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269538080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unless the US government is planning on becoming a university booster, then I would expect that sports programs will continue to get the scholarships.  He is right, they are playing for money... college sports is big bucks for the school.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless the US government is planning on becoming a university booster , then I would expect that sports programs will continue to get the scholarships .
He is right , they are playing for money... college sports is big bucks for the school .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless the US government is planning on becoming a university booster, then I would expect that sports programs will continue to get the scholarships.
He is right, they are playing for money... college sports is big bucks for the school.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612720</id>
	<title>In the meantime ....</title>
	<author>artgeeq</author>
	<datestamp>1269538800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How are cybersecurity experts really trained? In universities? Private industry is on the cutting edge of computing, not academia.</p><p>So, what about private industry? Would anyone really want their son, daughter, nephew or niece to to go into any field that would prepare them to be cybersecurity experts? Outside of jobs that require security clearances, it seems that there is a pretty good chance of getting offshored or at least oursourced. Who wants that kind of job security?</p><p>Funny, despite all the comments universities, when earning an "advanced" degree in computer science (where many of the students could not program their way out of a wet paper bag), the US government gave me no tax breaks whatsoever with the hefty tuition. In my case, I did not overly care, but in general, the incentives for earning academic credentials in computer science seem somewhat limited.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How are cybersecurity experts really trained ?
In universities ?
Private industry is on the cutting edge of computing , not academia.So , what about private industry ?
Would anyone really want their son , daughter , nephew or niece to to go into any field that would prepare them to be cybersecurity experts ?
Outside of jobs that require security clearances , it seems that there is a pretty good chance of getting offshored or at least oursourced .
Who wants that kind of job security ? Funny , despite all the comments universities , when earning an " advanced " degree in computer science ( where many of the students could not program their way out of a wet paper bag ) , the US government gave me no tax breaks whatsoever with the hefty tuition .
In my case , I did not overly care , but in general , the incentives for earning academic credentials in computer science seem somewhat limited .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How are cybersecurity experts really trained?
In universities?
Private industry is on the cutting edge of computing, not academia.So, what about private industry?
Would anyone really want their son, daughter, nephew or niece to to go into any field that would prepare them to be cybersecurity experts?
Outside of jobs that require security clearances, it seems that there is a pretty good chance of getting offshored or at least oursourced.
Who wants that kind of job security?Funny, despite all the comments universities, when earning an "advanced" degree in computer science (where many of the students could not program their way out of a wet paper bag), the US government gave me no tax breaks whatsoever with the hefty tuition.
In my case, I did not overly care, but in general, the incentives for earning academic credentials in computer science seem somewhat limited.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31614150</id>
	<title>Re:They're not seeing a primary source.</title>
	<author>centuren</author>
	<datestamp>1269542940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The whole statement seems to show a wildly inaccurate perspective on how education and industry go together:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>"Homeland Security's cybersecurity director, Richard Marshall, warns that universities aren't turning out enough cybersecurity experts and urges greater scholarship funding.</p> </div><p>Universities do not turn out experts, period. If one needs more national security experts, the place to look isn't for upcoming graduates from Harvard's "Department of National Security", because no such thing exists. Hopefully, 4-year degrees in cybersecurity don't/won't exist, either. Universities educate students, giving them knowledge and skills to put them in a situation where they can be trained into these rolls. I went to an engineering school, and the CIA had a booth at the job fair every year, and 3 or 4 of my friends interned with the NSA, at least one of whom accepted a job there after he finished his graduate degree(s).</p><p>Richard Marshall's statement seems absurd; if they need more cybersecurity experts then they should recruit and train more people. With today's unemployment rate, it's not like there aren't people with the education out there looking for jobs. If you want more experts, hire people and train them. Scholarships might put more inexperienced graduates into the hiring pool, but does nothing to produce more cybersecurity <em>experts</em>. People in Marshall's position need to start realizing that companies and agencies alike invest in developing employees when it comes to jobs as specific as cybersecurity. Just throwing more certification graduates into the world isn't likely to improve anything.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The whole statement seems to show a wildly inaccurate perspective on how education and industry go together : " Homeland Security 's cybersecurity director , Richard Marshall , warns that universities are n't turning out enough cybersecurity experts and urges greater scholarship funding .
Universities do not turn out experts , period .
If one needs more national security experts , the place to look is n't for upcoming graduates from Harvard 's " Department of National Security " , because no such thing exists .
Hopefully , 4-year degrees in cybersecurity do n't/wo n't exist , either .
Universities educate students , giving them knowledge and skills to put them in a situation where they can be trained into these rolls .
I went to an engineering school , and the CIA had a booth at the job fair every year , and 3 or 4 of my friends interned with the NSA , at least one of whom accepted a job there after he finished his graduate degree ( s ) .Richard Marshall 's statement seems absurd ; if they need more cybersecurity experts then they should recruit and train more people .
With today 's unemployment rate , it 's not like there are n't people with the education out there looking for jobs .
If you want more experts , hire people and train them .
Scholarships might put more inexperienced graduates into the hiring pool , but does nothing to produce more cybersecurity experts .
People in Marshall 's position need to start realizing that companies and agencies alike invest in developing employees when it comes to jobs as specific as cybersecurity .
Just throwing more certification graduates into the world is n't likely to improve anything .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The whole statement seems to show a wildly inaccurate perspective on how education and industry go together:"Homeland Security's cybersecurity director, Richard Marshall, warns that universities aren't turning out enough cybersecurity experts and urges greater scholarship funding.
Universities do not turn out experts, period.
If one needs more national security experts, the place to look isn't for upcoming graduates from Harvard's "Department of National Security", because no such thing exists.
Hopefully, 4-year degrees in cybersecurity don't/won't exist, either.
Universities educate students, giving them knowledge and skills to put them in a situation where they can be trained into these rolls.
I went to an engineering school, and the CIA had a booth at the job fair every year, and 3 or 4 of my friends interned with the NSA, at least one of whom accepted a job there after he finished his graduate degree(s).Richard Marshall's statement seems absurd; if they need more cybersecurity experts then they should recruit and train more people.
With today's unemployment rate, it's not like there aren't people with the education out there looking for jobs.
If you want more experts, hire people and train them.
Scholarships might put more inexperienced graduates into the hiring pool, but does nothing to produce more cybersecurity experts.
People in Marshall's position need to start realizing that companies and agencies alike invest in developing employees when it comes to jobs as specific as cybersecurity.
Just throwing more certification graduates into the world isn't likely to improve anything.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612124</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613372</id>
	<title>Re:That's not the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269540840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Boy, that's a long winded way to say that you don't want to take the drug test.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Boy , that 's a long winded way to say that you do n't want to take the drug test .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Boy, that's a long winded way to say that you don't want to take the drug test.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613140</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612800</id>
	<title>Re:Training?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269538980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Or just offer more money? Seriously, if you need x people with a certain skill, and you can only find y
We don't just "run out" of people with skills; a perceived shortage just means the opportunities aren't tempting.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Or just offer more money ?
Seriously , if you need x people with a certain skill , and you can only find y We do n't just " run out " of people with skills ; a perceived shortage just means the opportunities are n't tempting .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or just offer more money?
Seriously, if you need x people with a certain skill, and you can only find y
We don't just "run out" of people with skills; a perceived shortage just means the opportunities aren't tempting.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612042</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31614104</id>
	<title>Re:Universities aren't taking it seriously either</title>
	<author>chill</author>
	<datestamp>1269542820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And there lies the biggest problem.  The majority of people have been so brainwashed to think college and university education is the answer, they don't know where else to look much less how to learn.  It is not just you, it is also some of the idiots doing the hiring.</p><p>I'll let you in on a little secret.  In the IT world and especially security, experience counts for much, much more than any degree.  Degrees get you past HR bots and substitute for experience only in kids coming right out of college who ONLY went to college.</p><p>Screw the college courses.  Take some SANS courses, get your CISSP and possibly GIAC certifications.  Pick a specialty and LEARN it.  I don't mean regurgitate answers to the CISSP exam, actually GROK a subject.  If you're interested in NETWORK security, know TCP/IP inside out, understand BGP, grasp the basics of Cisco IOS, speak Nessus, Wireshark and Snort like second languages.</p><p>When interviewing people for jobs like these, I'm interested in what you KNOW not what classes you took.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And there lies the biggest problem .
The majority of people have been so brainwashed to think college and university education is the answer , they do n't know where else to look much less how to learn .
It is not just you , it is also some of the idiots doing the hiring.I 'll let you in on a little secret .
In the IT world and especially security , experience counts for much , much more than any degree .
Degrees get you past HR bots and substitute for experience only in kids coming right out of college who ONLY went to college.Screw the college courses .
Take some SANS courses , get your CISSP and possibly GIAC certifications .
Pick a specialty and LEARN it .
I do n't mean regurgitate answers to the CISSP exam , actually GROK a subject .
If you 're interested in NETWORK security , know TCP/IP inside out , understand BGP , grasp the basics of Cisco IOS , speak Nessus , Wireshark and Snort like second languages.When interviewing people for jobs like these , I 'm interested in what you KNOW not what classes you took .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And there lies the biggest problem.
The majority of people have been so brainwashed to think college and university education is the answer, they don't know where else to look much less how to learn.
It is not just you, it is also some of the idiots doing the hiring.I'll let you in on a little secret.
In the IT world and especially security, experience counts for much, much more than any degree.
Degrees get you past HR bots and substitute for experience only in kids coming right out of college who ONLY went to college.Screw the college courses.
Take some SANS courses, get your CISSP and possibly GIAC certifications.
Pick a specialty and LEARN it.
I don't mean regurgitate answers to the CISSP exam, actually GROK a subject.
If you're interested in NETWORK security, know TCP/IP inside out, understand BGP, grasp the basics of Cisco IOS, speak Nessus, Wireshark and Snort like second languages.When interviewing people for jobs like these, I'm interested in what you KNOW not what classes you took.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613102</id>
	<title>Athletic scholarships</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269539940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
At my university athletic scholarships are funded in part by dedicated donors only interested in athletic programs  ("No, I won't give anything to the university as a whole, but I will buy red turf for the football field."  Really.)   And much of the shortfall is made up by student "activity fees" about half of which goes straight to the athletic department and a big chunk of that to scholarships.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At my university athletic scholarships are funded in part by dedicated donors only interested in athletic programs ( " No , I wo n't give anything to the university as a whole , but I will buy red turf for the football field .
" Really .
) And much of the shortfall is made up by student " activity fees " about half of which goes straight to the athletic department and a big chunk of that to scholarships .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
At my university athletic scholarships are funded in part by dedicated donors only interested in athletic programs  ("No, I won't give anything to the university as a whole, but I will buy red turf for the football field.
"  Really.
)   And much of the shortfall is made up by student "activity fees" about half of which goes straight to the athletic department and a big chunk of that to scholarships.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613036</id>
	<title>DHS already has a scholarship program, but</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269539700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>DHS has a small scholarship/fellowship program (http://www.orau.gov/dhsed/), but the fellowship program is on hold this year (http://www.orau.gov/dhsed/2010pages/fellowship.html).... Now the DHS cybersecurity guy is complaining and saying "more scholarship money!".  Go figure.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>DHS has a small scholarship/fellowship program ( http : //www.orau.gov/dhsed/ ) , but the fellowship program is on hold this year ( http : //www.orau.gov/dhsed/2010pages/fellowship.html ) .... Now the DHS cybersecurity guy is complaining and saying " more scholarship money ! " .
Go figure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>DHS has a small scholarship/fellowship program (http://www.orau.gov/dhsed/), but the fellowship program is on hold this year (http://www.orau.gov/dhsed/2010pages/fellowship.html).... Now the DHS cybersecurity guy is complaining and saying "more scholarship money!".
Go figure.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31615424</id>
	<title>Re:It's hard to learn</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269547200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Meh...hacking into other peoples' systems without prior permission is kind of a big deal, in my opinion.  However, I have always thought it would be fun to have some kind of cracking LAN party.  Bring your laptop (or whatever), with the understanding that others at the party *will* be trying to break into it.  Last one owned wins.  Then when it's all over, everyone tells everyone else what they did to break into the box and what the owner of the box could have done to make it more secure.  When you're done, you burn the box to the ground and rebuild it from scratch, just to be sure.
<br> <br>
You gain valuable knowledge about securing your own systems and about exploiting other systems.  You get the fun of cracking and the benefits of &quot;lessons learned&quot; without the legal risk of unauthorized cracking or the expense of recovering from a security breach on a production system.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Meh...hacking into other peoples ' systems without prior permission is kind of a big deal , in my opinion .
However , I have always thought it would be fun to have some kind of cracking LAN party .
Bring your laptop ( or whatever ) , with the understanding that others at the party * will * be trying to break into it .
Last one owned wins .
Then when it 's all over , everyone tells everyone else what they did to break into the box and what the owner of the box could have done to make it more secure .
When you 're done , you burn the box to the ground and rebuild it from scratch , just to be sure .
You gain valuable knowledge about securing your own systems and about exploiting other systems .
You get the fun of cracking and the benefits of " lessons learned " without the legal risk of unauthorized cracking or the expense of recovering from a security breach on a production system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Meh...hacking into other peoples' systems without prior permission is kind of a big deal, in my opinion.
However, I have always thought it would be fun to have some kind of cracking LAN party.
Bring your laptop (or whatever), with the understanding that others at the party *will* be trying to break into it.
Last one owned wins.
Then when it's all over, everyone tells everyone else what they did to break into the box and what the owner of the box could have done to make it more secure.
When you're done, you burn the box to the ground and rebuild it from scratch, just to be sure.
You gain valuable knowledge about securing your own systems and about exploiting other systems.
You get the fun of cracking and the benefits of "lessons learned" without the legal risk of unauthorized cracking or the expense of recovering from a security breach on a production system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612556</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612402</id>
	<title>Don't worry!</title>
	<author>brennz</author>
	<datestamp>1269537660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If the universities fail to produce enough security experts, <a href="http://www.isc2.org/" title="isc2.org">ISC2</a> [isc2.org] is happy to convert your tech support guy into a CISSP for the low rate of $600, and $200 a year thereafter!  If you order now, you can also get a CAP certification along with a free toaster.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If the universities fail to produce enough security experts , ISC2 [ isc2.org ] is happy to convert your tech support guy into a CISSP for the low rate of $ 600 , and $ 200 a year thereafter !
If you order now , you can also get a CAP certification along with a free toaster .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the universities fail to produce enough security experts, ISC2 [isc2.org] is happy to convert your tech support guy into a CISSP for the low rate of $600, and $200 a year thereafter!
If you order now, you can also get a CAP certification along with a free toaster.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612042</id>
	<title>Training?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269536640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Shouldn't they be recruiting them from the trenches or simply luring script kiddies into the evil clutches of our federal government with promises of "no bedtimes", "free games, pizza &amp; soda" and "no one here will make fun of you because everyone here will be like you"?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Should n't they be recruiting them from the trenches or simply luring script kiddies into the evil clutches of our federal government with promises of " no bedtimes " , " free games , pizza &amp; soda " and " no one here will make fun of you because everyone here will be like you " ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Shouldn't they be recruiting them from the trenches or simply luring script kiddies into the evil clutches of our federal government with promises of "no bedtimes", "free games, pizza &amp; soda" and "no one here will make fun of you because everyone here will be like you"?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31619328</id>
	<title>Re:They're not seeing a primary source.</title>
	<author>rhythmx</author>
	<datestamp>1269519780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>We have had a request out for a Security Researcher with a clearance for over a year now. Not a single candidate with a military background has come through yet with the right skillset for exploitation development. The Military is only cranking out operations people, which aren't really that hard to come by.</htmltext>
<tokenext>We have had a request out for a Security Researcher with a clearance for over a year now .
Not a single candidate with a military background has come through yet with the right skillset for exploitation development .
The Military is only cranking out operations people , which are n't really that hard to come by .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We have had a request out for a Security Researcher with a clearance for over a year now.
Not a single candidate with a military background has come through yet with the right skillset for exploitation development.
The Military is only cranking out operations people, which aren't really that hard to come by.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612124</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613806</id>
	<title>Barriers</title>
	<author>The Aethereal</author>
	<datestamp>1269542040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If we don't have enough cybersecurity experts, why are we passing a law requiring licensing, which will only bar more people from the field?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If we do n't have enough cybersecurity experts , why are we passing a law requiring licensing , which will only bar more people from the field ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If we don't have enough cybersecurity experts, why are we passing a law requiring licensing, which will only bar more people from the field?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613344</id>
	<title>Re:They're not seeing a primary source.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269540720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The best, most talented aren't coming out of the military. The military has some stringent guidelines on physical health and background that a lot of people don't make the grade for, but nonetheless are well-suited for the work. Anyone with asthma, short-sighted, or is gay, or bad credit, etc., are all ineligible for military work. I should know -- I <i>am</i> one of those "cyber security" experts, and I <i>did</i> look into joining the military, but was ruled ineligible. The talent pool that the military can recruit from is significantly smaller than total pool size.</p><p>And as anyone in IT will tell you, overspecialization can kill your career; You need to remain flexible, continually expanding your skillset, and often find yourself in peripheral fields because a job isn't available in your field of choice. Many of us wind up taking help desk positions when five years ago we would have been network administrators, simply because of consolidation, outsourcing, and the fact that IT in general does poorly in a recessionary economy. A lot of that talent we had moved into other fields that have better job security, and they are no longer trained to current requirements. This is a side-effect of capitalism and is neither good nor bad, but it does shrink the pool size.</p><p>If the Department of Homeland Security wants more people to choose from, they need to either lower their requirements to what the job actually requires, or they need to consider liasoning with the Department of Commerce, trade, etc., and funding IT projects that will bring people back into the field and increase the pool of currently-trained and available workers, <i>or</i> they raise the amount they're willing to pay, offer training, etc.; Like the medical field does. The Department of Homeland Security needs to offer a career path, not just a job, in that scenario. Otherwise, what's the point?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The best , most talented are n't coming out of the military .
The military has some stringent guidelines on physical health and background that a lot of people do n't make the grade for , but nonetheless are well-suited for the work .
Anyone with asthma , short-sighted , or is gay , or bad credit , etc. , are all ineligible for military work .
I should know -- I am one of those " cyber security " experts , and I did look into joining the military , but was ruled ineligible .
The talent pool that the military can recruit from is significantly smaller than total pool size.And as anyone in IT will tell you , overspecialization can kill your career ; You need to remain flexible , continually expanding your skillset , and often find yourself in peripheral fields because a job is n't available in your field of choice .
Many of us wind up taking help desk positions when five years ago we would have been network administrators , simply because of consolidation , outsourcing , and the fact that IT in general does poorly in a recessionary economy .
A lot of that talent we had moved into other fields that have better job security , and they are no longer trained to current requirements .
This is a side-effect of capitalism and is neither good nor bad , but it does shrink the pool size.If the Department of Homeland Security wants more people to choose from , they need to either lower their requirements to what the job actually requires , or they need to consider liasoning with the Department of Commerce , trade , etc. , and funding IT projects that will bring people back into the field and increase the pool of currently-trained and available workers , or they raise the amount they 're willing to pay , offer training , etc .
; Like the medical field does .
The Department of Homeland Security needs to offer a career path , not just a job , in that scenario .
Otherwise , what 's the point ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The best, most talented aren't coming out of the military.
The military has some stringent guidelines on physical health and background that a lot of people don't make the grade for, but nonetheless are well-suited for the work.
Anyone with asthma, short-sighted, or is gay, or bad credit, etc., are all ineligible for military work.
I should know -- I am one of those "cyber security" experts, and I did look into joining the military, but was ruled ineligible.
The talent pool that the military can recruit from is significantly smaller than total pool size.And as anyone in IT will tell you, overspecialization can kill your career; You need to remain flexible, continually expanding your skillset, and often find yourself in peripheral fields because a job isn't available in your field of choice.
Many of us wind up taking help desk positions when five years ago we would have been network administrators, simply because of consolidation, outsourcing, and the fact that IT in general does poorly in a recessionary economy.
A lot of that talent we had moved into other fields that have better job security, and they are no longer trained to current requirements.
This is a side-effect of capitalism and is neither good nor bad, but it does shrink the pool size.If the Department of Homeland Security wants more people to choose from, they need to either lower their requirements to what the job actually requires, or they need to consider liasoning with the Department of Commerce, trade, etc., and funding IT projects that will bring people back into the field and increase the pool of currently-trained and available workers, or they raise the amount they're willing to pay, offer training, etc.
; Like the medical field does.
The Department of Homeland Security needs to offer a career path, not just a job, in that scenario.
Otherwise, what's the point?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612124</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31614626</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, it's about the money</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269544620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Let me see if I understand what you are saying.  Because you achieved a measure of success (and to be honest, $50K per year doesn't sound overly generous to me, but maybe some of this is location -- the cost of living in Alaska is rather high) due to some combination of hard work, natural talent and good timing, you felt guilty because you were making more money than people twice your age who were doing more *physical* work than you were.  With all due respect, I think you were missing a couple of very important factors.
<br> <br>
You may not have paid your dues in school, since you were expelled in 8th grade, but somehow I doubt you immediately jumped from 8th grade to IT manager.  To get that position without the benefit of a GED, you obviously spent some time working hard to learn enough about IT to convince your employer that you were qualified to do the job.  I *did* graduate from high school, I busted my butt to get my four year degree (in considerably more time than four years, but I digress) and I <i>still</i> poured a lot of time effort and money into studying system administration before I got my break in IT.  If you landed a cush position without the educational credentials I earned, then (barring nepotism), you either were naturally gifted or were a very hard worker and most likely, you were some combination of the two.  That means you possessed at least two qualities that are in short supply: talent and determination.  If those qualities are in short supply, employers will pay well for people who possess them -- that's just econ 101.
<br> <br>
Second, I think you are devaluing the work you did.  It may not have taken a lot of physical effort, but mental effort is every bit as taxing.  Leadership, vision, responsibility, and the ability to set a goal and take steps to achieve it <i>are</i> most certainly &quot;work.&quot;  To say that the other people working at the resort with you who were providing physical labor were more &quot;worthy&quot; than you, is almost certainly false (unless you spent 40 hours a week posting on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. and playing spider solitaire &lt;grin&gt;).  As an IT manager, your decisions directly affected the business's bottom line, and therefore, if you screwed up, there was a really good chance that you would have lost your job.  For example, a gardener probably won't get fired for planting a gardenia in the wrong location, but if you type "rm -Rf<nobr> <wbr></nobr>./" on the wrong console window...well, you get the idea.  Risk and pay are often directly proportional.
<br> <br>
I disagree that IT work is not &quot;hard, honest labor.&quot;  Again, not all work is physical.  You said it yourself: &quot;What I am trying to say is that people making millions of dollars for contributing so little to society are doing a massive disservice to themselves in the long run.&quot;  I agree.  I don't think, however, that you contributed little to society (or to your employer).  There is a great deal of responsibility in IT, and a lot of mental effort required to create innovative solutions to real-world business problems.  Where I work, we created a revolutionary network in one of the most remote parts of the U.S.  Our work brings telemedicine, distance education and a boat-load of other real-world benefits to people who have traditionally been very, very isolated.  I see that as a <i>huge</i> contribution to at least a portion of society.  I may have a lot of free time at work some days, but I have also put in extremely long hours or canceled weekend plans with my family on other days when something was broken.  It all evens out in the wash.
<br> <br>
Finally, if other people -- be they other managers, or the people they manage -- are sniping at you for the job you do, then either 1) they are insecure that a young guy like yourself is doing such a good job (BTDT), or 2) they are jealous of the success that your hard work and natural talent have brought you.  In either case, it's not your problem.  It's <i>theirs</i> and there is no reason for you to take on the burden of their issues.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Let me see if I understand what you are saying .
Because you achieved a measure of success ( and to be honest , $ 50K per year does n't sound overly generous to me , but maybe some of this is location -- the cost of living in Alaska is rather high ) due to some combination of hard work , natural talent and good timing , you felt guilty because you were making more money than people twice your age who were doing more * physical * work than you were .
With all due respect , I think you were missing a couple of very important factors .
You may not have paid your dues in school , since you were expelled in 8th grade , but somehow I doubt you immediately jumped from 8th grade to IT manager .
To get that position without the benefit of a GED , you obviously spent some time working hard to learn enough about IT to convince your employer that you were qualified to do the job .
I * did * graduate from high school , I busted my butt to get my four year degree ( in considerably more time than four years , but I digress ) and I still poured a lot of time effort and money into studying system administration before I got my break in IT .
If you landed a cush position without the educational credentials I earned , then ( barring nepotism ) , you either were naturally gifted or were a very hard worker and most likely , you were some combination of the two .
That means you possessed at least two qualities that are in short supply : talent and determination .
If those qualities are in short supply , employers will pay well for people who possess them -- that 's just econ 101 .
Second , I think you are devaluing the work you did .
It may not have taken a lot of physical effort , but mental effort is every bit as taxing .
Leadership , vision , responsibility , and the ability to set a goal and take steps to achieve it are most certainly " work .
" To say that the other people working at the resort with you who were providing physical labor were more " worthy " than you , is almost certainly false ( unless you spent 40 hours a week posting on / .
and playing spider solitaire ) .
As an IT manager , your decisions directly affected the business 's bottom line , and therefore , if you screwed up , there was a really good chance that you would have lost your job .
For example , a gardener probably wo n't get fired for planting a gardenia in the wrong location , but if you type " rm -Rf ./ " on the wrong console window...well , you get the idea .
Risk and pay are often directly proportional .
I disagree that IT work is not " hard , honest labor .
" Again , not all work is physical .
You said it yourself : " What I am trying to say is that people making millions of dollars for contributing so little to society are doing a massive disservice to themselves in the long run .
" I agree .
I do n't think , however , that you contributed little to society ( or to your employer ) .
There is a great deal of responsibility in IT , and a lot of mental effort required to create innovative solutions to real-world business problems .
Where I work , we created a revolutionary network in one of the most remote parts of the U.S. Our work brings telemedicine , distance education and a boat-load of other real-world benefits to people who have traditionally been very , very isolated .
I see that as a huge contribution to at least a portion of society .
I may have a lot of free time at work some days , but I have also put in extremely long hours or canceled weekend plans with my family on other days when something was broken .
It all evens out in the wash . Finally , if other people -- be they other managers , or the people they manage -- are sniping at you for the job you do , then either 1 ) they are insecure that a young guy like yourself is doing such a good job ( BTDT ) , or 2 ) they are jealous of the success that your hard work and natural talent have brought you .
In either case , it 's not your problem .
It 's theirs and there is no reason for you to take on the burden of their issues .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let me see if I understand what you are saying.
Because you achieved a measure of success (and to be honest, $50K per year doesn't sound overly generous to me, but maybe some of this is location -- the cost of living in Alaska is rather high) due to some combination of hard work, natural talent and good timing, you felt guilty because you were making more money than people twice your age who were doing more *physical* work than you were.
With all due respect, I think you were missing a couple of very important factors.
You may not have paid your dues in school, since you were expelled in 8th grade, but somehow I doubt you immediately jumped from 8th grade to IT manager.
To get that position without the benefit of a GED, you obviously spent some time working hard to learn enough about IT to convince your employer that you were qualified to do the job.
I *did* graduate from high school, I busted my butt to get my four year degree (in considerably more time than four years, but I digress) and I still poured a lot of time effort and money into studying system administration before I got my break in IT.
If you landed a cush position without the educational credentials I earned, then (barring nepotism), you either were naturally gifted or were a very hard worker and most likely, you were some combination of the two.
That means you possessed at least two qualities that are in short supply: talent and determination.
If those qualities are in short supply, employers will pay well for people who possess them -- that's just econ 101.
Second, I think you are devaluing the work you did.
It may not have taken a lot of physical effort, but mental effort is every bit as taxing.
Leadership, vision, responsibility, and the ability to set a goal and take steps to achieve it are most certainly "work.
"  To say that the other people working at the resort with you who were providing physical labor were more "worthy" than you, is almost certainly false (unless you spent 40 hours a week posting on /.
and playing spider solitaire ).
As an IT manager, your decisions directly affected the business's bottom line, and therefore, if you screwed up, there was a really good chance that you would have lost your job.
For example, a gardener probably won't get fired for planting a gardenia in the wrong location, but if you type "rm -Rf ./" on the wrong console window...well, you get the idea.
Risk and pay are often directly proportional.
I disagree that IT work is not "hard, honest labor.
"  Again, not all work is physical.
You said it yourself: "What I am trying to say is that people making millions of dollars for contributing so little to society are doing a massive disservice to themselves in the long run.
"  I agree.
I don't think, however, that you contributed little to society (or to your employer).
There is a great deal of responsibility in IT, and a lot of mental effort required to create innovative solutions to real-world business problems.
Where I work, we created a revolutionary network in one of the most remote parts of the U.S.  Our work brings telemedicine, distance education and a boat-load of other real-world benefits to people who have traditionally been very, very isolated.
I see that as a huge contribution to at least a portion of society.
I may have a lot of free time at work some days, but I have also put in extremely long hours or canceled weekend plans with my family on other days when something was broken.
It all evens out in the wash.
 
Finally, if other people -- be they other managers, or the people they manage -- are sniping at you for the job you do, then either 1) they are insecure that a young guy like yourself is doing such a good job (BTDT), or 2) they are jealous of the success that your hard work and natural talent have brought you.
In either case, it's not your problem.
It's theirs and there is no reason for you to take on the burden of their issues.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612484</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31615176</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, it's about the money</title>
	<author>ThrowAwaySociety</author>
	<datestamp>1269546360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Sure... sure... However, IBM has about 400,000 employees, probably bringin on a few thousand out of each graduating class.</p><p>There is usually only one or two 'Lebrons' that show up in a graduating class.</p><p>IF we taught mathmatics and statistics to our children, then the choice to go with the (relatively) certain tech job over the (totally) unlikely NBA career would be obvious.</p><p>Unfortunately we don't, and our youth suffer as a result</p><p>btw, anybody seen 'Hoop Dreams'?</p></div><p>These days, IBM only really hires sales staff and in the US. There are a few legacy technical employees, and a few technical contractors, but they have essentially announced that all new technical staff will be overseas.</p><p>I'd say your chances of playing professional b-ball are about as good as your chances of getting hired as an engineer at Big Blue.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure... sure... However , IBM has about 400,000 employees , probably bringin on a few thousand out of each graduating class.There is usually only one or two 'Lebrons ' that show up in a graduating class.IF we taught mathmatics and statistics to our children , then the choice to go with the ( relatively ) certain tech job over the ( totally ) unlikely NBA career would be obvious.Unfortunately we do n't , and our youth suffer as a resultbtw , anybody seen 'Hoop Dreams ' ? These days , IBM only really hires sales staff and in the US .
There are a few legacy technical employees , and a few technical contractors , but they have essentially announced that all new technical staff will be overseas.I 'd say your chances of playing professional b-ball are about as good as your chances of getting hired as an engineer at Big Blue .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure... sure... However, IBM has about 400,000 employees, probably bringin on a few thousand out of each graduating class.There is usually only one or two 'Lebrons' that show up in a graduating class.IF we taught mathmatics and statistics to our children, then the choice to go with the (relatively) certain tech job over the (totally) unlikely NBA career would be obvious.Unfortunately we don't, and our youth suffer as a resultbtw, anybody seen 'Hoop Dreams'?These days, IBM only really hires sales staff and in the US.
There are a few legacy technical employees, and a few technical contractors, but they have essentially announced that all new technical staff will be overseas.I'd say your chances of playing professional b-ball are about as good as your chances of getting hired as an engineer at Big Blue.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612342</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31614454</id>
	<title>Re:Universities aren't taking it seriously either</title>
	<author>centuren</author>
	<datestamp>1269544020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>At my current university, there are two undergraduate networking courses and one undergraduate security course. There's one network course in the graduate curriculum, but that's meant as a recap of the two undergrad ones if you didn't get your undergrad here. I would love to load up on network and security classes, but there's simply none being offered.</p></div><p>I don't really feel that having a lot more is appropriate. I'd rather see people with degrees in Computer Science go into network security then see people graduate with a specialty in Network Security. When I think "Cyber Security Expert" I think of someone who, say, writes custom kernel patches, works in the field of cryptography, or writes packet-level intrusion detection tools. These are all security things, but they don't need security courses given in university to match them. Knowing how to patch a system to be more secure is a result of knowing how those systems work on that base level. Cryptography means studying lots of math. Communication and authentication handlers is again, understanding how it's handled in the OS.</p><p>The problem with network security courses at school, is they either have to be offered late in your program, or be largely superficial. If you're interested in the field, I'd talk to some people in the industry (I hear the government is recruiting), and ask what you should be studying. Recruiters, specifically, as they'll be able to say what they look for in a graduate's skill set.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>At my current university , there are two undergraduate networking courses and one undergraduate security course .
There 's one network course in the graduate curriculum , but that 's meant as a recap of the two undergrad ones if you did n't get your undergrad here .
I would love to load up on network and security classes , but there 's simply none being offered.I do n't really feel that having a lot more is appropriate .
I 'd rather see people with degrees in Computer Science go into network security then see people graduate with a specialty in Network Security .
When I think " Cyber Security Expert " I think of someone who , say , writes custom kernel patches , works in the field of cryptography , or writes packet-level intrusion detection tools .
These are all security things , but they do n't need security courses given in university to match them .
Knowing how to patch a system to be more secure is a result of knowing how those systems work on that base level .
Cryptography means studying lots of math .
Communication and authentication handlers is again , understanding how it 's handled in the OS.The problem with network security courses at school , is they either have to be offered late in your program , or be largely superficial .
If you 're interested in the field , I 'd talk to some people in the industry ( I hear the government is recruiting ) , and ask what you should be studying .
Recruiters , specifically , as they 'll be able to say what they look for in a graduate 's skill set .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At my current university, there are two undergraduate networking courses and one undergraduate security course.
There's one network course in the graduate curriculum, but that's meant as a recap of the two undergrad ones if you didn't get your undergrad here.
I would love to load up on network and security classes, but there's simply none being offered.I don't really feel that having a lot more is appropriate.
I'd rather see people with degrees in Computer Science go into network security then see people graduate with a specialty in Network Security.
When I think "Cyber Security Expert" I think of someone who, say, writes custom kernel patches, works in the field of cryptography, or writes packet-level intrusion detection tools.
These are all security things, but they don't need security courses given in university to match them.
Knowing how to patch a system to be more secure is a result of knowing how those systems work on that base level.
Cryptography means studying lots of math.
Communication and authentication handlers is again, understanding how it's handled in the OS.The problem with network security courses at school, is they either have to be offered late in your program, or be largely superficial.
If you're interested in the field, I'd talk to some people in the industry (I hear the government is recruiting), and ask what you should be studying.
Recruiters, specifically, as they'll be able to say what they look for in a graduate's skill set.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31612478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613058</id>
	<title>Universities lag behind the technology</title>
	<author>r7</author>
	<datestamp>1269539760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Universities are lagging not just in security tech but systems tech in general, and systems administration in particular.  Network engineering training programs do a a much better job, and software engineering programs do a fair job addressing security.  The missing component is systems administration.</p><p>Security is only as good as its weakest link.  If you are focused on communications, or focused on code, and ignore the larger picture (i.e., systems) vulnerabilities will be inevitable.</p><p>Another problem is financial.  Bean counters and stock holders are focused on the short term whereas security requires a long-term perspective.  Because new features can be implemented quickly, without taking time to implement security (see any Microsoft OS for the most obvious examples) they often are.  Only high-level input from systems analysts (i.e., senior systems administrators) can address this/  This is also why a lot of applications are coded in scripting languages like PHP and Perl which don't provide for strong compile-time code checking or have good run-time security profiles.</p><p>When universities have Unix/Linux Systems Administration degree programs we will see better computer and communications security, especially if those programs are run by experienced sysadmins (as opposed to PhDs or career academics).  When systems administion graduates have a seat at table alongside project managers, software engineers, requirements analysts, hr and accounting you will see better security.</p><p>Until then it will continue to be the same ol' same ol', with lots of activity in Bugtraq and CERT, and lots of time wasted on software upgrades.<br>
&nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Universities are lagging not just in security tech but systems tech in general , and systems administration in particular .
Network engineering training programs do a a much better job , and software engineering programs do a fair job addressing security .
The missing component is systems administration.Security is only as good as its weakest link .
If you are focused on communications , or focused on code , and ignore the larger picture ( i.e. , systems ) vulnerabilities will be inevitable.Another problem is financial .
Bean counters and stock holders are focused on the short term whereas security requires a long-term perspective .
Because new features can be implemented quickly , without taking time to implement security ( see any Microsoft OS for the most obvious examples ) they often are .
Only high-level input from systems analysts ( i.e. , senior systems administrators ) can address this/ This is also why a lot of applications are coded in scripting languages like PHP and Perl which do n't provide for strong compile-time code checking or have good run-time security profiles.When universities have Unix/Linux Systems Administration degree programs we will see better computer and communications security , especially if those programs are run by experienced sysadmins ( as opposed to PhDs or career academics ) .
When systems administion graduates have a seat at table alongside project managers , software engineers , requirements analysts , hr and accounting you will see better security.Until then it will continue to be the same ol ' same ol ' , with lots of activity in Bugtraq and CERT , and lots of time wasted on software upgrades .
 </tokentext>
<sentencetext>Universities are lagging not just in security tech but systems tech in general, and systems administration in particular.
Network engineering training programs do a a much better job, and software engineering programs do a fair job addressing security.
The missing component is systems administration.Security is only as good as its weakest link.
If you are focused on communications, or focused on code, and ignore the larger picture (i.e., systems) vulnerabilities will be inevitable.Another problem is financial.
Bean counters and stock holders are focused on the short term whereas security requires a long-term perspective.
Because new features can be implemented quickly, without taking time to implement security (see any Microsoft OS for the most obvious examples) they often are.
Only high-level input from systems analysts (i.e., senior systems administrators) can address this/  This is also why a lot of applications are coded in scripting languages like PHP and Perl which don't provide for strong compile-time code checking or have good run-time security profiles.When universities have Unix/Linux Systems Administration degree programs we will see better computer and communications security, especially if those programs are run by experienced sysadmins (as opposed to PhDs or career academics).
When systems administion graduates have a seat at table alongside project managers, software engineers, requirements analysts, hr and accounting you will see better security.Until then it will continue to be the same ol' same ol', with lots of activity in Bugtraq and CERT, and lots of time wasted on software upgrades.
 </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613002</id>
	<title>The government isn't hiring them</title>
	<author>99BottlesOfBeerInMyF</author>
	<datestamp>1269539580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are lots of people out there interested in cyber security. "Hackers" are in all the movies and are kind of cool. But the ability to become a legitimate security expert is limited, partly because the government which hires tons of people to perform physical investigations and fire guns, has failed to keep up with the times. Look at the military, for example. If you want to be a well paid cyber security expert, or even an important one, you basically have to go into the private sector. You're sure never getting promoted within the ranks of the armed forces, or even well paid so why deal with being constantly undervalued? And their focus is completely wrong. First unlike the private sector they care about how physically fit you are much more than about how competent you are. Second, they care a lot more about credentials and conformity than the industry does. Computer, especially computer security is a young field. I've worked with lots of network security experts that had a PhD and wore a suit, but I've worked with just as many that had no degree (or a degree in jazz) and wore lewd t-shirts or dressed like The Cure. Industry considers this latter category to be a huge asset and even makes sure to show them off to clients; we have those quirky genius types on staff. The government just writes them off as not real experts because they didn't give up a $100k job doing real security to go back and get a degree they don't need.</p><p>And frankly, while the industry has respect for the NSA, it has pretty much written off the rest of the government as a lost cause when it comes to security. They're too firmly in the pockets of corporate interests, useless contractors, and bureaucratic nonsense. How many competent security experts have refused or quit working for homeland defense saying it was impossible to do the job given the resources and idiotic policies? </p><p>Seriously, if the government does not think there are enough experts, start handing out scholarships and setting up internships. The NSA already does so. Better yet, start hiring security people with actual authority and discretion, like experts in some other fields have. Put security experts in charge of hiring, retaining, promoting, and running security, instead of being beholden to superiors who want to run them like they do the motor pool.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are lots of people out there interested in cyber security .
" Hackers " are in all the movies and are kind of cool .
But the ability to become a legitimate security expert is limited , partly because the government which hires tons of people to perform physical investigations and fire guns , has failed to keep up with the times .
Look at the military , for example .
If you want to be a well paid cyber security expert , or even an important one , you basically have to go into the private sector .
You 're sure never getting promoted within the ranks of the armed forces , or even well paid so why deal with being constantly undervalued ?
And their focus is completely wrong .
First unlike the private sector they care about how physically fit you are much more than about how competent you are .
Second , they care a lot more about credentials and conformity than the industry does .
Computer , especially computer security is a young field .
I 've worked with lots of network security experts that had a PhD and wore a suit , but I 've worked with just as many that had no degree ( or a degree in jazz ) and wore lewd t-shirts or dressed like The Cure .
Industry considers this latter category to be a huge asset and even makes sure to show them off to clients ; we have those quirky genius types on staff .
The government just writes them off as not real experts because they did n't give up a $ 100k job doing real security to go back and get a degree they do n't need.And frankly , while the industry has respect for the NSA , it has pretty much written off the rest of the government as a lost cause when it comes to security .
They 're too firmly in the pockets of corporate interests , useless contractors , and bureaucratic nonsense .
How many competent security experts have refused or quit working for homeland defense saying it was impossible to do the job given the resources and idiotic policies ?
Seriously , if the government does not think there are enough experts , start handing out scholarships and setting up internships .
The NSA already does so .
Better yet , start hiring security people with actual authority and discretion , like experts in some other fields have .
Put security experts in charge of hiring , retaining , promoting , and running security , instead of being beholden to superiors who want to run them like they do the motor pool .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are lots of people out there interested in cyber security.
"Hackers" are in all the movies and are kind of cool.
But the ability to become a legitimate security expert is limited, partly because the government which hires tons of people to perform physical investigations and fire guns, has failed to keep up with the times.
Look at the military, for example.
If you want to be a well paid cyber security expert, or even an important one, you basically have to go into the private sector.
You're sure never getting promoted within the ranks of the armed forces, or even well paid so why deal with being constantly undervalued?
And their focus is completely wrong.
First unlike the private sector they care about how physically fit you are much more than about how competent you are.
Second, they care a lot more about credentials and conformity than the industry does.
Computer, especially computer security is a young field.
I've worked with lots of network security experts that had a PhD and wore a suit, but I've worked with just as many that had no degree (or a degree in jazz) and wore lewd t-shirts or dressed like The Cure.
Industry considers this latter category to be a huge asset and even makes sure to show them off to clients; we have those quirky genius types on staff.
The government just writes them off as not real experts because they didn't give up a $100k job doing real security to go back and get a degree they don't need.And frankly, while the industry has respect for the NSA, it has pretty much written off the rest of the government as a lost cause when it comes to security.
They're too firmly in the pockets of corporate interests, useless contractors, and bureaucratic nonsense.
How many competent security experts have refused or quit working for homeland defense saying it was impossible to do the job given the resources and idiotic policies?
Seriously, if the government does not think there are enough experts, start handing out scholarships and setting up internships.
The NSA already does so.
Better yet, start hiring security people with actual authority and discretion, like experts in some other fields have.
Put security experts in charge of hiring, retaining, promoting, and running security, instead of being beholden to superiors who want to run them like they do the motor pool.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31613278</id>
	<title>Define the job first</title>
	<author>ErichTheRed</author>
	<datestamp>1269540480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One problem with IT in general, and especially its little niche subfields, is the lack of formal training. Skilled trades get apprenticeships to teach newbies the ropes on the job. Professions like medicine, pharmacy, engineering, etc. have standard accredited training and licensure requirements.</p><p>We have none of that. The field is still so wild-westy that vendors largely control training and education. Universities provide grads a CS or a "vocational" IT degree, but it's all theory. Lots of us didn't even go to school. I'm a science guy by education, and wound up here. Other people I know were educated in something not even close to IT. Still others took the "Get Certified and Make $100K In 10 Days!!!!" training courses.</p><p>When a software developer or IT guy gets out in the real world, the education side of things is usually left up to vendors, who are desperately trying to push their latest product. It takes a new guy a long time to realize that (a) VendorX doesn't have a completel lock on FieldY, and (b) VendorX is trotting out the exact same thing as 10 years ago, this time with an improved support structure. (Example: VDI is "OMG -drool- brand new hot technology" but VMs have been around in the mainframe world for eons, and thin clients have been...OK...for years. The difference now is that bandwidth is cheap and fast, which it wasn't 10 years ago.)</p><p>So what do the Feds want as "cybersecurity experts?" Are they thinking of capturing virus writers and forcing them to work for us? Are they thinking the guy installing Symantec Antivirus from vendor instructions is an expert? And what could universities possibly do about it? Courses like "CYS 425 - Introduction to SQL Injection Attacks?" In my mind, anyone who really belongs in the "IT profession" should be grounded so well in the fundamentals that they can be crafty enough to find security flaws in their own software. If they're systems guys (like me,) they should be smart enough to test vendor assertions.</p><p>Instead of just giving scholarships for CS degrees, I think the profession should rally around making sure everyone is qualified for an IT job at the level they're working at. And I think that some of this needs to be general enough to transcend vendors. Someone should know "operating systems" instead of "Windows" or "Linux". it shouldn't be an absolute culture shock to take a person working in a Windows environmnent and put them in front of RHEL with a small amount of introduction. How many of you guys work in Windows-centric place that has one Linux box everyone is afraid to touch? THAT'S what we have to fix!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One problem with IT in general , and especially its little niche subfields , is the lack of formal training .
Skilled trades get apprenticeships to teach newbies the ropes on the job .
Professions like medicine , pharmacy , engineering , etc .
have standard accredited training and licensure requirements.We have none of that .
The field is still so wild-westy that vendors largely control training and education .
Universities provide grads a CS or a " vocational " IT degree , but it 's all theory .
Lots of us did n't even go to school .
I 'm a science guy by education , and wound up here .
Other people I know were educated in something not even close to IT .
Still others took the " Get Certified and Make $ 100K In 10 Days ! ! ! !
" training courses.When a software developer or IT guy gets out in the real world , the education side of things is usually left up to vendors , who are desperately trying to push their latest product .
It takes a new guy a long time to realize that ( a ) VendorX does n't have a completel lock on FieldY , and ( b ) VendorX is trotting out the exact same thing as 10 years ago , this time with an improved support structure .
( Example : VDI is " OMG -drool- brand new hot technology " but VMs have been around in the mainframe world for eons , and thin clients have been...OK...for years .
The difference now is that bandwidth is cheap and fast , which it was n't 10 years ago .
) So what do the Feds want as " cybersecurity experts ?
" Are they thinking of capturing virus writers and forcing them to work for us ?
Are they thinking the guy installing Symantec Antivirus from vendor instructions is an expert ?
And what could universities possibly do about it ?
Courses like " CYS 425 - Introduction to SQL Injection Attacks ?
" In my mind , anyone who really belongs in the " IT profession " should be grounded so well in the fundamentals that they can be crafty enough to find security flaws in their own software .
If they 're systems guys ( like me , ) they should be smart enough to test vendor assertions.Instead of just giving scholarships for CS degrees , I think the profession should rally around making sure everyone is qualified for an IT job at the level they 're working at .
And I think that some of this needs to be general enough to transcend vendors .
Someone should know " operating systems " instead of " Windows " or " Linux " .
it should n't be an absolute culture shock to take a person working in a Windows environmnent and put them in front of RHEL with a small amount of introduction .
How many of you guys work in Windows-centric place that has one Linux box everyone is afraid to touch ?
THAT 'S what we have to fix !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One problem with IT in general, and especially its little niche subfields, is the lack of formal training.
Skilled trades get apprenticeships to teach newbies the ropes on the job.
Professions like medicine, pharmacy, engineering, etc.
have standard accredited training and licensure requirements.We have none of that.
The field is still so wild-westy that vendors largely control training and education.
Universities provide grads a CS or a "vocational" IT degree, but it's all theory.
Lots of us didn't even go to school.
I'm a science guy by education, and wound up here.
Other people I know were educated in something not even close to IT.
Still others took the "Get Certified and Make $100K In 10 Days!!!!
" training courses.When a software developer or IT guy gets out in the real world, the education side of things is usually left up to vendors, who are desperately trying to push their latest product.
It takes a new guy a long time to realize that (a) VendorX doesn't have a completel lock on FieldY, and (b) VendorX is trotting out the exact same thing as 10 years ago, this time with an improved support structure.
(Example: VDI is "OMG -drool- brand new hot technology" but VMs have been around in the mainframe world for eons, and thin clients have been...OK...for years.
The difference now is that bandwidth is cheap and fast, which it wasn't 10 years ago.
)So what do the Feds want as "cybersecurity experts?
" Are they thinking of capturing virus writers and forcing them to work for us?
Are they thinking the guy installing Symantec Antivirus from vendor instructions is an expert?
And what could universities possibly do about it?
Courses like "CYS 425 - Introduction to SQL Injection Attacks?
" In my mind, anyone who really belongs in the "IT profession" should be grounded so well in the fundamentals that they can be crafty enough to find security flaws in their own software.
If they're systems guys (like me,) they should be smart enough to test vendor assertions.Instead of just giving scholarships for CS degrees, I think the profession should rally around making sure everyone is qualified for an IT job at the level they're working at.
And I think that some of this needs to be general enough to transcend vendors.
Someone should know "operating systems" instead of "Windows" or "Linux".
it shouldn't be an absolute culture shock to take a person working in a Windows environmnent and put them in front of RHEL with a small amount of introduction.
How many of you guys work in Windows-centric place that has one Linux box everyone is afraid to touch?
THAT'S what we have to fix!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31616752</id>
	<title>USA: Defenseless, Weak, and Exploitable</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269508560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For months now, I have seen a campaign in the press to present the USA as defenseless, weak, and exploitable as far as our networking infrastructure goes. We are in a crisis of not enough experts to secure our networks. The demand is for huge sums to be given to education (including certifying apparently the entire Pentagon staff with that worthless CEH junk) in the hopes that some day, we can catch up. For now, we're wide open. So, badniks, here we are, caught off-guard by the security crisis. Please attack us! Show us who you are and where you come from and what areas of our network interest you. Hurry, this crisis won't last forever. (A real military analogy of what's going on is counter-sniper fire. A soldier pokes his helmet up over the parapet of his trench, while another solider notes where the sniper is firing from.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For months now , I have seen a campaign in the press to present the USA as defenseless , weak , and exploitable as far as our networking infrastructure goes .
We are in a crisis of not enough experts to secure our networks .
The demand is for huge sums to be given to education ( including certifying apparently the entire Pentagon staff with that worthless CEH junk ) in the hopes that some day , we can catch up .
For now , we 're wide open .
So , badniks , here we are , caught off-guard by the security crisis .
Please attack us !
Show us who you are and where you come from and what areas of our network interest you .
Hurry , this crisis wo n't last forever .
( A real military analogy of what 's going on is counter-sniper fire .
A soldier pokes his helmet up over the parapet of his trench , while another solider notes where the sniper is firing from .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For months now, I have seen a campaign in the press to present the USA as defenseless, weak, and exploitable as far as our networking infrastructure goes.
We are in a crisis of not enough experts to secure our networks.
The demand is for huge sums to be given to education (including certifying apparently the entire Pentagon staff with that worthless CEH junk) in the hopes that some day, we can catch up.
For now, we're wide open.
So, badniks, here we are, caught off-guard by the security crisis.
Please attack us!
Show us who you are and where you come from and what areas of our network interest you.
Hurry, this crisis won't last forever.
(A real military analogy of what's going on is counter-sniper fire.
A soldier pokes his helmet up over the parapet of his trench, while another solider notes where the sniper is firing from.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_25_1442237.31617584</id>
	<title>why not use the hackers in jail to work for gov so</title>
	<author>Joe The Dragon</author>
	<datestamp>1269511260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>why not use the hackers in jail to work for gov so they can help us and not just take up lockup space?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>why not use the hackers in jail to work for gov so they can help us and not just take up lockup space ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>why not use the hackers in jail to work for gov so they can help us and not just take up lockup space?</sentencetext>
</comment>
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