<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_19_1633241</id>
	<title>The Woes of Munich's Linux Migration</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1269027420000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>mikrorechner writes <i>"The H Online has a writeup of the <a href="http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LiMux-project-management-We-were-naive-958824.html">problems encountered by LiMux</a> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux">Wikipedia entry</a>), one of the most prominent Linux migration projects in the world, trying to introduce free software into the highly heterogenous IT infrastructure of the City of Munich. Quoting: 'Florian Schiessl, deputy head of Munich's LiMux project for migrating the city's public administration to Linux, has, for the first time, explained why migrating the city's computing landscape to open source software has taken longer than originally planned.'"</i> Here is <a href="http://www.floschi.info/2010/03/quality-over-time-in-munich/">Shiessl's blog</a>, in which he details some of the transition problems.</htmltext>
<tokenext>mikrorechner writes " The H Online has a writeup of the problems encountered by LiMux ( Wikipedia entry ) , one of the most prominent Linux migration projects in the world , trying to introduce free software into the highly heterogenous IT infrastructure of the City of Munich .
Quoting : 'Florian Schiessl , deputy head of Munich 's LiMux project for migrating the city 's public administration to Linux , has , for the first time , explained why migrating the city 's computing landscape to open source software has taken longer than originally planned .
' " Here is Shiessl 's blog , in which he details some of the transition problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>mikrorechner writes "The H Online has a writeup of the problems encountered by LiMux (Wikipedia entry), one of the most prominent Linux migration projects in the world, trying to introduce free software into the highly heterogenous IT infrastructure of the City of Munich.
Quoting: 'Florian Schiessl, deputy head of Munich's LiMux project for migrating the city's public administration to Linux, has, for the first time, explained why migrating the city's computing landscape to open source software has taken longer than originally planned.
'" Here is Shiessl's blog, in which he details some of the transition problems.</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542840</id>
	<title>Re:We thought about doing this in Canada</title>
	<author>WrongSizeGlass</author>
	<datestamp>1268989320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>But we couldn't find a catchy pun or play on words to name the project, so we ditched it altogether.</p></div><p>Really? What about "Canux"? Isn't that already your nickname?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>But we could n't find a catchy pun or play on words to name the project , so we ditched it altogether.Really ?
What about " Canux " ?
Is n't that already your nickname ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But we couldn't find a catchy pun or play on words to name the project, so we ditched it altogether.Really?
What about "Canux"?
Isn't that already your nickname?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542628</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543130</id>
	<title>Why so prominent?</title>
	<author>Mark\_in\_Brazil</author>
	<datestamp>1268990520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why is the Linux migration project in Munich so prominent, as mentioned in TFS? I know of <b>much</b> larger migrations, both in terms of the number of computers and the geographic area covered.  The Brazilian government has been migrating to Free Software in mass.  The Bank of Brazil, for example, has over 100,000 computers running Firefox and BrOffice.  As of last June, the estimate was right at 100,000, with 65,000 of those machines running Linux and 35,000 running other operating systems.  The Bank of Brazil has branches and offices all over Brazil, which is a very large country.  The mass migration happened in 2006, before the migration really began in Munich.  The number of machines involved (counting the Linux boxes only) is about 5 times as large as the number of machines to be involved in Munich, and instead of being located in a single city, they are spread out all over a country that's larger than the US would be if it didn't have Alaska, but smaller than the US with Alaska (i.e., larger in area than the "lower 48" plus DC plus Hawaii).  In the year 2006 alone, the Bank of Brazil estimated that it saved R$20MM by using Free Software.</p><p>FWIW, I've also seen Linux desktops at the ITI (Brazil's IT Institute).  Even totally non-nerdy ITI employees seemed perfectly at home on Linux desktops when I was there as long ago as early-to-mid 2005.   The Bank of Brazil branch where my company has its account has all Linux desktops.  The managers who take care of my account think it's funny when I crane my neck to look at their monitors and geek out on the software their 'puters are running.  They are total non-nerds and not only appear to be happy with the Linux desktops, but told me they are.  It took them a minute to figure out what I was asking - they didn't think of using Linux desktops as anything all that unusual.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is the Linux migration project in Munich so prominent , as mentioned in TFS ?
I know of much larger migrations , both in terms of the number of computers and the geographic area covered .
The Brazilian government has been migrating to Free Software in mass .
The Bank of Brazil , for example , has over 100,000 computers running Firefox and BrOffice .
As of last June , the estimate was right at 100,000 , with 65,000 of those machines running Linux and 35,000 running other operating systems .
The Bank of Brazil has branches and offices all over Brazil , which is a very large country .
The mass migration happened in 2006 , before the migration really began in Munich .
The number of machines involved ( counting the Linux boxes only ) is about 5 times as large as the number of machines to be involved in Munich , and instead of being located in a single city , they are spread out all over a country that 's larger than the US would be if it did n't have Alaska , but smaller than the US with Alaska ( i.e. , larger in area than the " lower 48 " plus DC plus Hawaii ) .
In the year 2006 alone , the Bank of Brazil estimated that it saved R $ 20MM by using Free Software.FWIW , I 've also seen Linux desktops at the ITI ( Brazil 's IT Institute ) .
Even totally non-nerdy ITI employees seemed perfectly at home on Linux desktops when I was there as long ago as early-to-mid 2005 .
The Bank of Brazil branch where my company has its account has all Linux desktops .
The managers who take care of my account think it 's funny when I crane my neck to look at their monitors and geek out on the software their 'puters are running .
They are total non-nerds and not only appear to be happy with the Linux desktops , but told me they are .
It took them a minute to figure out what I was asking - they did n't think of using Linux desktops as anything all that unusual .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is the Linux migration project in Munich so prominent, as mentioned in TFS?
I know of much larger migrations, both in terms of the number of computers and the geographic area covered.
The Brazilian government has been migrating to Free Software in mass.
The Bank of Brazil, for example, has over 100,000 computers running Firefox and BrOffice.
As of last June, the estimate was right at 100,000, with 65,000 of those machines running Linux and 35,000 running other operating systems.
The Bank of Brazil has branches and offices all over Brazil, which is a very large country.
The mass migration happened in 2006, before the migration really began in Munich.
The number of machines involved (counting the Linux boxes only) is about 5 times as large as the number of machines to be involved in Munich, and instead of being located in a single city, they are spread out all over a country that's larger than the US would be if it didn't have Alaska, but smaller than the US with Alaska (i.e., larger in area than the "lower 48" plus DC plus Hawaii).
In the year 2006 alone, the Bank of Brazil estimated that it saved R$20MM by using Free Software.FWIW, I've also seen Linux desktops at the ITI (Brazil's IT Institute).
Even totally non-nerdy ITI employees seemed perfectly at home on Linux desktops when I was there as long ago as early-to-mid 2005.
The Bank of Brazil branch where my company has its account has all Linux desktops.
The managers who take care of my account think it's funny when I crane my neck to look at their monitors and geek out on the software their 'puters are running.
They are total non-nerds and not only appear to be happy with the Linux desktops, but told me they are.
It took them a minute to figure out what I was asking - they didn't think of using Linux desktops as anything all that unusual.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542856</id>
	<title>Re:No free lunch, but a range of benefits.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268989380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, because it's not like there's a large number of german companies that specialize in windows development and managing windows. That's only something that open source has.</p><p>Let's be a little honest about the benefits of OSS please. There are plenty, but saying that proprietary software is bad for the local economy is just misleading.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , because it 's not like there 's a large number of german companies that specialize in windows development and managing windows .
That 's only something that open source has.Let 's be a little honest about the benefits of OSS please .
There are plenty , but saying that proprietary software is bad for the local economy is just misleading .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, because it's not like there's a large number of german companies that specialize in windows development and managing windows.
That's only something that open source has.Let's be a little honest about the benefits of OSS please.
There are plenty, but saying that proprietary software is bad for the local economy is just misleading.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31544564</id>
	<title>Re:Wrong approach</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268996460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That was not your 0.02, that was more like your millions of dollars over budget and never able to recoup those loses.</p><p>Theres a point where everyone looks around and says, "you know the estimates on this job have long gone over budget and we will forever be in debt trying this"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That was not your 0.02 , that was more like your millions of dollars over budget and never able to recoup those loses.Theres a point where everyone looks around and says , " you know the estimates on this job have long gone over budget and we will forever be in debt trying this "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That was not your 0.02, that was more like your millions of dollars over budget and never able to recoup those loses.Theres a point where everyone looks around and says, "you know the estimates on this job have long gone over budget and we will forever be in debt trying this"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542646</id>
	<title>Move them all into the CLOUD</title>
	<author>Spy Handler</author>
	<datestamp>1269031620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>1. Move them all into CLOUD computing
2. ???
3. Profit!</htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
Move them all into CLOUD computing 2 .
? ? ? 3 .
Profit !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
Move them all into CLOUD computing
2.
???
3.
Profit!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543440</id>
	<title>Re:No free lunch, but a range of benefits.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268991600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Yes, because it's not like there's a large number of german companies that specialize in windows development and managing windows.</p></div><p>Windows and MS Office are developed in Seattle and India. Linux is developed all over the world with some heavyweights from Europe and Germany, while OOo is mainly developed by the old StarOffice-Team in Hamburg, Germany (now Sun, soon Oracle).</p><p>While it is not "buy german" it is a lot closer to home and a lot less dependent on a single entity.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , because it 's not like there 's a large number of german companies that specialize in windows development and managing windows.Windows and MS Office are developed in Seattle and India .
Linux is developed all over the world with some heavyweights from Europe and Germany , while OOo is mainly developed by the old StarOffice-Team in Hamburg , Germany ( now Sun , soon Oracle ) .While it is not " buy german " it is a lot closer to home and a lot less dependent on a single entity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, because it's not like there's a large number of german companies that specialize in windows development and managing windows.Windows and MS Office are developed in Seattle and India.
Linux is developed all over the world with some heavyweights from Europe and Germany, while OOo is mainly developed by the old StarOffice-Team in Hamburg, Germany (now Sun, soon Oracle).While it is not "buy german" it is a lot closer to home and a lot less dependent on a single entity.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542856</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543714</id>
	<title>VBA</title>
	<author>thethibs</author>
	<datestamp>1268992800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The Open Office team (if such a thing exists) is going to have to grapple with VBA sooner or later. There are millions of apps running as VBA extensions to Word and Excel. I have more than a few myself and I'm not about to give them up.</p><p>Open office is always in catch-up mode. The next play in the game is in "quantitative analysis for the middle manager". The Excel-compatible tools and extensions are already in use while Open Office is still fixing layout bugs. </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The Open Office team ( if such a thing exists ) is going to have to grapple with VBA sooner or later .
There are millions of apps running as VBA extensions to Word and Excel .
I have more than a few myself and I 'm not about to give them up.Open office is always in catch-up mode .
The next play in the game is in " quantitative analysis for the middle manager " .
The Excel-compatible tools and extensions are already in use while Open Office is still fixing layout bugs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Open Office team (if such a thing exists) is going to have to grapple with VBA sooner or later.
There are millions of apps running as VBA extensions to Word and Excel.
I have more than a few myself and I'm not about to give them up.Open office is always in catch-up mode.
The next play in the game is in "quantitative analysis for the middle manager".
The Excel-compatible tools and extensions are already in use while Open Office is still fixing layout bugs. </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31546646</id>
	<title>Re:Limuxwatch</title>
	<author>BlindBear</author>
	<datestamp>1269011520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>He's mostly harmless, intelligent people can see that he has pent up anger issues inside of him, I like to check on him once in a while just to see if he is still going. He probably doesn't 'get it'  --- freedom and all that stuff, maybe he is worried that Microsoft stock is about to tank, I would be! Who would buy that stock after Microsoft lost the LSE platform deal last year after those catastrophic failures. What a recommendation! I still chuckle.</htmltext>
<tokenext>He 's mostly harmless , intelligent people can see that he has pent up anger issues inside of him , I like to check on him once in a while just to see if he is still going .
He probably does n't 'get it ' --- freedom and all that stuff , maybe he is worried that Microsoft stock is about to tank , I would be !
Who would buy that stock after Microsoft lost the LSE platform deal last year after those catastrophic failures .
What a recommendation !
I still chuckle .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He's mostly harmless, intelligent people can see that he has pent up anger issues inside of him, I like to check on him once in a while just to see if he is still going.
He probably doesn't 'get it'  --- freedom and all that stuff, maybe he is worried that Microsoft stock is about to tank, I would be!
Who would buy that stock after Microsoft lost the LSE platform deal last year after those catastrophic failures.
What a recommendation!
I still chuckle.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543786</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542530</id>
	<title>I came first</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269031080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Be sure to lick it all up! XD</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Be sure to lick it all up !
XD</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Be sure to lick it all up!
XD</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543356</id>
	<title>Why has it taken longer than planned?</title>
	<author>Gordonjcp</author>
	<datestamp>1268991300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Because ripping out an infrastructure that relies on closed-source proprietary software and replacing it with free, Free software is hard.  Really, really hard.</p><p>Yes, it's easy to rip out that clunky old Exchange server that has never really worked right, and slap in something running Exim and Courier-IMAP.  The tricky bit is all the little edge cases and micro-applications - things that are *really important* that rely on someone running an Excel macro on the right machine at the right time.  No, I'm not saying they should keep those - but you've got to make a very compelling case to get rid of them and have someone write an equivalent in $favourite\_language.</p><p>It's harder than you think.  If you don't think it's hard, send in your CV.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because ripping out an infrastructure that relies on closed-source proprietary software and replacing it with free , Free software is hard .
Really , really hard.Yes , it 's easy to rip out that clunky old Exchange server that has never really worked right , and slap in something running Exim and Courier-IMAP .
The tricky bit is all the little edge cases and micro-applications - things that are * really important * that rely on someone running an Excel macro on the right machine at the right time .
No , I 'm not saying they should keep those - but you 've got to make a very compelling case to get rid of them and have someone write an equivalent in $ favourite \ _language.It 's harder than you think .
If you do n't think it 's hard , send in your CV .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because ripping out an infrastructure that relies on closed-source proprietary software and replacing it with free, Free software is hard.
Really, really hard.Yes, it's easy to rip out that clunky old Exchange server that has never really worked right, and slap in something running Exim and Courier-IMAP.
The tricky bit is all the little edge cases and micro-applications - things that are *really important* that rely on someone running an Excel macro on the right machine at the right time.
No, I'm not saying they should keep those - but you've got to make a very compelling case to get rid of them and have someone write an equivalent in $favourite\_language.It's harder than you think.
If you don't think it's hard, send in your CV.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542580</id>
	<title>There is no free lunch</title>
	<author>rshol</author>
	<datestamp>1269031260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Either buy a proprietary system or pay to do it yourself.  You pays your money and you takes your chances.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Either buy a proprietary system or pay to do it yourself .
You pays your money and you takes your chances .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Either buy a proprietary system or pay to do it yourself.
You pays your money and you takes your chances.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542852</id>
	<title>Wrong approach</title>
	<author>Sub Zero 992</author>
	<datestamp>1268989380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, they tried a horizontal migration strategy, moving from location to location and department to department. That meant the problems never stopped.</p><p>A better approach might have been to do a vertical top-down migration: Servers: first roll out a directory server infrastructure, then a CIFS strategy etc.; Clients: migrate away from MSIE / Active X, then to CUPS, then away from MS Office etc.. And then, finally, to change the desktop OS out from underneath.</p><p>A suggested strategy for those planning something similar: 1: migrate the server services (and create a shiny new unified and consistent infrastructure); 2: migrate the desktop apps to FOSS alternatives (chose apps which will work under your target desktop OS); 3: switch out the desktop OS for linux (the users retain the apps they have become used to).</p><p>Just my  0,02</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , they tried a horizontal migration strategy , moving from location to location and department to department .
That meant the problems never stopped.A better approach might have been to do a vertical top-down migration : Servers : first roll out a directory server infrastructure , then a CIFS strategy etc .
; Clients : migrate away from MSIE / Active X , then to CUPS , then away from MS Office etc.. And then , finally , to change the desktop OS out from underneath.A suggested strategy for those planning something similar : 1 : migrate the server services ( and create a shiny new unified and consistent infrastructure ) ; 2 : migrate the desktop apps to FOSS alternatives ( chose apps which will work under your target desktop OS ) ; 3 : switch out the desktop OS for linux ( the users retain the apps they have become used to ) .Just my 0,02</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, they tried a horizontal migration strategy, moving from location to location and department to department.
That meant the problems never stopped.A better approach might have been to do a vertical top-down migration: Servers: first roll out a directory server infrastructure, then a CIFS strategy etc.
; Clients: migrate away from MSIE / Active X, then to CUPS, then away from MS Office etc.. And then, finally, to change the desktop OS out from underneath.A suggested strategy for those planning something similar: 1: migrate the server services (and create a shiny new unified and consistent infrastructure); 2: migrate the desktop apps to FOSS alternatives (chose apps which will work under your target desktop OS); 3: switch out the desktop OS for linux (the users retain the apps they have become used to).Just my  0,02</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542750</id>
	<title>Re:Bad title is bad.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269032160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It doesn't take more work to switch to free software, it takes work to switch to any other platform, regardless of whether it's free or fee based.</p><p>Unfortunantly the blog as already been<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.'d</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It does n't take more work to switch to free software , it takes work to switch to any other platform , regardless of whether it 's free or fee based.Unfortunantly the blog as already been / .
'd</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It doesn't take more work to switch to free software, it takes work to switch to any other platform, regardless of whether it's free or fee based.Unfortunantly the blog as already been /.
'd</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542668</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31544482</id>
	<title>Re:We thought about doing this in Canada</title>
	<author>shutdown -p now</author>
	<datestamp>1268996100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Actually, it was ditched because they couldn't agree on the relative order of "English" and "Fran&#231;ais" in the language selector in installer: Quebec threated to proclaim independence if they got it wrong, and Alberta said it would vote the other way just to see that happen.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , it was ditched because they could n't agree on the relative order of " English " and " Fran   ais " in the language selector in installer : Quebec threated to proclaim independence if they got it wrong , and Alberta said it would vote the other way just to see that happen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, it was ditched because they couldn't agree on the relative order of "English" and "Français" in the language selector in installer: Quebec threated to proclaim independence if they got it wrong, and Alberta said it would vote the other way just to see that happen.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542628</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31547966</id>
	<title>How come noone mentions GOsa?</title>
	<author>Pav</author>
	<datestamp>1269117120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How come in these discussions noone ever mentions the software they're using (eg. GOsa, see <a href="https://www.gosa-project.org/" title="gosa-project.org">https://www.gosa-project.org/</a> [gosa-project.org] ) ?  GOsa is a web admin front-end which allows management of clients and servers through an LDAP based infrastructre and RPC backend.  Services that can be managed include Samba+PDC, email+groupware, FAI &amp; OPSI (for auto-install of Linux and Windows clients), DNS, DHCP, Squid, Asterisk, Linux terminal server clients, and quite a bit more.  It IS very hard to get working though.</p><p>Hmmm...  I just noticed that Munich is no longer listed as a reference on the GOsa site - I wonder if there is a story there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How come in these discussions noone ever mentions the software they 're using ( eg .
GOsa , see https : //www.gosa-project.org/ [ gosa-project.org ] ) ?
GOsa is a web admin front-end which allows management of clients and servers through an LDAP based infrastructre and RPC backend .
Services that can be managed include Samba + PDC , email + groupware , FAI &amp; OPSI ( for auto-install of Linux and Windows clients ) , DNS , DHCP , Squid , Asterisk , Linux terminal server clients , and quite a bit more .
It IS very hard to get working though.Hmmm... I just noticed that Munich is no longer listed as a reference on the GOsa site - I wonder if there is a story there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How come in these discussions noone ever mentions the software they're using (eg.
GOsa, see https://www.gosa-project.org/ [gosa-project.org] ) ?
GOsa is a web admin front-end which allows management of clients and servers through an LDAP based infrastructre and RPC backend.
Services that can be managed include Samba+PDC, email+groupware, FAI &amp; OPSI (for auto-install of Linux and Windows clients), DNS, DHCP, Squid, Asterisk, Linux terminal server clients, and quite a bit more.
It IS very hard to get working though.Hmmm...  I just noticed that Munich is no longer listed as a reference on the GOsa site - I wonder if there is a story there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31548764</id>
	<title>Well, it is not done.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269092160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In a place I know about (massive, their IT operations have more personnel than most technology companies) Windows XP is still widely available, this has to do with cost and complexity: lets say that people start producing documents only with the newest MS formats (which are not backwards compatible), then you find yourself having two different formats per applications from the same software provider you have to contend with.</p><p>Of course you can tell people to use the older standard, but then you should ask yourslef why do you need the newer software if you have to stay with the old features.</p><p>My point being that anybody telling you that Migrating from MS to MS is simpler is lying to you.</p><p>At least if you move from CLosed to Open you know that the document format should not be an obstacle any more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In a place I know about ( massive , their IT operations have more personnel than most technology companies ) Windows XP is still widely available , this has to do with cost and complexity : lets say that people start producing documents only with the newest MS formats ( which are not backwards compatible ) , then you find yourself having two different formats per applications from the same software provider you have to contend with.Of course you can tell people to use the older standard , but then you should ask yourslef why do you need the newer software if you have to stay with the old features.My point being that anybody telling you that Migrating from MS to MS is simpler is lying to you.At least if you move from CLosed to Open you know that the document format should not be an obstacle any more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In a place I know about (massive, their IT operations have more personnel than most technology companies) Windows XP is still widely available, this has to do with cost and complexity: lets say that people start producing documents only with the newest MS formats (which are not backwards compatible), then you find yourself having two different formats per applications from the same software provider you have to contend with.Of course you can tell people to use the older standard, but then you should ask yourslef why do you need the newer software if you have to stay with the old features.My point being that anybody telling you that Migrating from MS to MS is simpler is lying to you.At least if you move from CLosed to Open you know that the document format should not be an obstacle any more.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543456</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31552424</id>
	<title>Wollmux</title>
	<author>fritsd</author>
	<datestamp>1269082080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Their <a href="http://www.osor.eu/projects/wollmux" title="www.osor.eu">"Eierlegende Wollmux"</a> [www.osor.eu] also sounds useful. (translation: "including the kitchensink"??)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Their " Eierlegende Wollmux " [ www.osor.eu ] also sounds useful .
( translation : " including the kitchensink " ? ?
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Their "Eierlegende Wollmux" [www.osor.eu] also sounds useful.
(translation: "including the kitchensink"??
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31547966</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31546202</id>
	<title>Re:Bad title is bad.</title>
	<author>Kjella</author>
	<datestamp>1269006420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The thing is, this is <b>business as usual</b> at many places. Being nimble is how IT departments survive, if you get people skilled in some tools you hand them those tools instead of retraining. If there's money in the budget to buy new hardware you might upgrade your laptops and use a new OS, if you don't you stay and the old OS stays. Companies split and merge and reorganize and there's never the one unified global perfect IT solution.</p><p>I have met companies where it was utterly impossible to get the tools you needed because they had to be run up and down the whole chain of command and tested to work for all users and often they'd try to give you something else that didn't do the job. Everything was raised to the level of Policy with capital P, it was full of absurdities like we could only get machines with the new corporate image but vital software was not approved, only for the old but we couldn't get the old image because that was Policy straight from the top. My estimate, just from the time they were messing us around - and we were consultants and billing - I suspect they lost at least 10,000$ between the three of us.</p><p>Don't get me wrong, I'm all for systems handled by a competent system administrator, with proper images and procedures to operate like a real department and not hodgepodge central. But this "you can have any software you want, as long as it's a black T-Ford" is not productive at all. Most of the time, it works quite fine for all of them even though they different solutions, because they've all been adapted to what they're doing and whatnot. The only real problem is when you try coming in and think we'll replace all of this with a Linux solution. Then you discover that there's thousands of little gotchas everywhere and you're "one system to rule them all" is almost as unworkable as the old system. Or you manage to pull it together for a short while only to see people tearing it apart in ten different directions again.</p><p>It's always safer to make changes you know the impact of. Maybe there's some magical company out there that's avoided it, but in every company I've been to there's been a gray mass of "I don't know enough about who and how is using this to say if we can change it." even from the people who should be the most authoritative on it. There's no real way of making sure everyone's been asked, but you can bet the screaming will start once something breaks. And so people don't want to do it, they don't want to do the big corporate-wide changes. Run it by the local IT department, make the changes locally and if it works, great. No need to wake the slumbering beast of trying to push it into the standard application list unless you got a fetish for paperwork and meetings and writing documentation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The thing is , this is business as usual at many places .
Being nimble is how IT departments survive , if you get people skilled in some tools you hand them those tools instead of retraining .
If there 's money in the budget to buy new hardware you might upgrade your laptops and use a new OS , if you do n't you stay and the old OS stays .
Companies split and merge and reorganize and there 's never the one unified global perfect IT solution.I have met companies where it was utterly impossible to get the tools you needed because they had to be run up and down the whole chain of command and tested to work for all users and often they 'd try to give you something else that did n't do the job .
Everything was raised to the level of Policy with capital P , it was full of absurdities like we could only get machines with the new corporate image but vital software was not approved , only for the old but we could n't get the old image because that was Policy straight from the top .
My estimate , just from the time they were messing us around - and we were consultants and billing - I suspect they lost at least 10,000 $ between the three of us.Do n't get me wrong , I 'm all for systems handled by a competent system administrator , with proper images and procedures to operate like a real department and not hodgepodge central .
But this " you can have any software you want , as long as it 's a black T-Ford " is not productive at all .
Most of the time , it works quite fine for all of them even though they different solutions , because they 've all been adapted to what they 're doing and whatnot .
The only real problem is when you try coming in and think we 'll replace all of this with a Linux solution .
Then you discover that there 's thousands of little gotchas everywhere and you 're " one system to rule them all " is almost as unworkable as the old system .
Or you manage to pull it together for a short while only to see people tearing it apart in ten different directions again.It 's always safer to make changes you know the impact of .
Maybe there 's some magical company out there that 's avoided it , but in every company I 've been to there 's been a gray mass of " I do n't know enough about who and how is using this to say if we can change it .
" even from the people who should be the most authoritative on it .
There 's no real way of making sure everyone 's been asked , but you can bet the screaming will start once something breaks .
And so people do n't want to do it , they do n't want to do the big corporate-wide changes .
Run it by the local IT department , make the changes locally and if it works , great .
No need to wake the slumbering beast of trying to push it into the standard application list unless you got a fetish for paperwork and meetings and writing documentation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The thing is, this is business as usual at many places.
Being nimble is how IT departments survive, if you get people skilled in some tools you hand them those tools instead of retraining.
If there's money in the budget to buy new hardware you might upgrade your laptops and use a new OS, if you don't you stay and the old OS stays.
Companies split and merge and reorganize and there's never the one unified global perfect IT solution.I have met companies where it was utterly impossible to get the tools you needed because they had to be run up and down the whole chain of command and tested to work for all users and often they'd try to give you something else that didn't do the job.
Everything was raised to the level of Policy with capital P, it was full of absurdities like we could only get machines with the new corporate image but vital software was not approved, only for the old but we couldn't get the old image because that was Policy straight from the top.
My estimate, just from the time they were messing us around - and we were consultants and billing - I suspect they lost at least 10,000$ between the three of us.Don't get me wrong, I'm all for systems handled by a competent system administrator, with proper images and procedures to operate like a real department and not hodgepodge central.
But this "you can have any software you want, as long as it's a black T-Ford" is not productive at all.
Most of the time, it works quite fine for all of them even though they different solutions, because they've all been adapted to what they're doing and whatnot.
The only real problem is when you try coming in and think we'll replace all of this with a Linux solution.
Then you discover that there's thousands of little gotchas everywhere and you're "one system to rule them all" is almost as unworkable as the old system.
Or you manage to pull it together for a short while only to see people tearing it apart in ten different directions again.It's always safer to make changes you know the impact of.
Maybe there's some magical company out there that's avoided it, but in every company I've been to there's been a gray mass of "I don't know enough about who and how is using this to say if we can change it.
" even from the people who should be the most authoritative on it.
There's no real way of making sure everyone's been asked, but you can bet the screaming will start once something breaks.
And so people don't want to do it, they don't want to do the big corporate-wide changes.
Run it by the local IT department, make the changes locally and if it works, great.
No need to wake the slumbering beast of trying to push it into the standard application list unless you got a fetish for paperwork and meetings and writing documentation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542956</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31544052</id>
	<title>Re:Move them all into the CLOUD</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268994180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>CLOUD computing</p></div><p>You mean the dumb terminal/mainframe model, only with overly complex, less reliable "terminals" and less reliable "mainframes"?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>CLOUD computingYou mean the dumb terminal/mainframe model , only with overly complex , less reliable " terminals " and less reliable " mainframes " ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>CLOUD computingYou mean the dumb terminal/mainframe model, only with overly complex, less reliable "terminals" and less reliable "mainframes"?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542646</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543298</id>
	<title>Re:No free lunch, but a range of benefits.</title>
	<author>h4rr4r</author>
	<datestamp>1268991060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I wonder how much of the "cost savings" on software licenses is being consumed by developer hours recreating functionality.</i></p><p>Even if it consumes every last cent, it would still be a big win. That is money you spent in the local economy not exported, plus it means they are free from future payments for this tech.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I wonder how much of the " cost savings " on software licenses is being consumed by developer hours recreating functionality.Even if it consumes every last cent , it would still be a big win .
That is money you spent in the local economy not exported , plus it means they are free from future payments for this tech .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wonder how much of the "cost savings" on software licenses is being consumed by developer hours recreating functionality.Even if it consumes every last cent, it would still be a big win.
That is money you spent in the local economy not exported, plus it means they are free from future payments for this tech.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543034</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543148</id>
	<title>Re:No free lunch, but a range of benefits.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268990640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If they stuck with proprietary products, who would they be paying to improve it?</p></div><p>The company that develops and sell the product ? and get on with their main business of governing and running a city ?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If they stuck with proprietary products , who would they be paying to improve it ? The company that develops and sell the product ?
and get on with their main business of governing and running a city ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If they stuck with proprietary products, who would they be paying to improve it?The company that develops and sell the product ?
and get on with their main business of governing and running a city ?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543026</id>
	<title>Re:how much did this all cost?</title>
	<author>LWATCDR</author>
	<datestamp>1268990040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can think of some befits.<br>1. The money be spent on in house staff and or local consultants instead of on Microsoft Software. That money will say in country and flow through the economy and not be exported out of country.<br>2. Long term savings. Once the migration is done there will be no need to purchase new versions of Office, Windows, and other proprietary software.<br>3. Enhanced expandability. To add a news server or clients do not require purchasing more CALs. also if you have spent the money on in house talent then you have more development staff to implement new projects.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can think of some befits.1 .
The money be spent on in house staff and or local consultants instead of on Microsoft Software .
That money will say in country and flow through the economy and not be exported out of country.2 .
Long term savings .
Once the migration is done there will be no need to purchase new versions of Office , Windows , and other proprietary software.3 .
Enhanced expandability .
To add a news server or clients do not require purchasing more CALs .
also if you have spent the money on in house talent then you have more development staff to implement new projects .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can think of some befits.1.
The money be spent on in house staff and or local consultants instead of on Microsoft Software.
That money will say in country and flow through the economy and not be exported out of country.2.
Long term savings.
Once the migration is done there will be no need to purchase new versions of Office, Windows, and other proprietary software.3.
Enhanced expandability.
To add a news server or clients do not require purchasing more CALs.
also if you have spent the money on in house talent then you have more development staff to implement new projects.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31545572</id>
	<title>Re:Bad title is bad.</title>
	<author>frank\_adrian314159</author>
	<datestamp>1269002160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Very true, by the sound of the blog most of their problems stem from how poorly the systems were managed before.</i> </p><p>If they weren't smart enough to do the research to know this <i>before</i> they started, they were unqualified to do the migration.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Very true , by the sound of the blog most of their problems stem from how poorly the systems were managed before .
If they were n't smart enough to do the research to know this before they started , they were unqualified to do the migration .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Very true, by the sound of the blog most of their problems stem from how poorly the systems were managed before.
If they weren't smart enough to do the research to know this before they started, they were unqualified to do the migration.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542956</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542938</id>
	<title>Re:Bad title is bad. (coral cache)</title>
	<author>Statecraftsman</author>
	<datestamp>1268989680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://www.floschi.info.nyud.net/2010/03/quality-over-time-in-munich/" title="nyud.net">http://www.floschi.info.nyud.net/2010/03/quality-over-time-in-munich/</a> [nyud.net] may work at some point in the future.</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.floschi.info.nyud.net/2010/03/quality-over-time-in-munich/ [ nyud.net ] may work at some point in the future .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.floschi.info.nyud.net/2010/03/quality-over-time-in-munich/ [nyud.net] may work at some point in the future.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542750</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31548110</id>
	<title>Re:The real reason its late</title>
	<author>xtracto</author>
	<datestamp>1269077700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>They're installing <b>Gentoo</b>, which takes approximately 18 - 19 years for a full <b>emerge</b>.</p></div><p>You're welcome.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>They 're installing Gentoo , which takes approximately 18 - 19 years for a full emerge.You 're welcome .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They're installing Gentoo, which takes approximately 18 - 19 years for a full emerge.You're welcome.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542794</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542972</id>
	<title>Re:They should switch to all Macs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268989860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>homogenous != homogorgeous</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>homogenous ! = homogorgeous</tokentext>
<sentencetext>homogenous != homogorgeous</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542548</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543150</id>
	<title>bit34</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268990640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><A HREF="http://goat.cx/" title="goat.cx" rel="nofollow">right now. I tried, as5 of them all, watershed essay, world wiil have</a> [goat.cx]</htmltext>
<tokenext>right now .
I tried , as5 of them all , watershed essay , world wiil have [ goat.cx ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>right now.
I tried, as5 of them all, watershed essay, world wiil have [goat.cx]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542794</id>
	<title>The real reason its late</title>
	<author>Alanonfire</author>
	<datestamp>1269032340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>They're installing Debian, which takes approximately 18 - 19 years for a full install.<br> <br>
This task involves downloading 142909<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.iso images, burning and installing each disc on to every computer.</htmltext>
<tokenext>They 're installing Debian , which takes approximately 18 - 19 years for a full install .
This task involves downloading 142909 .iso images , burning and installing each disc on to every computer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They're installing Debian, which takes approximately 18 - 19 years for a full install.
This task involves downloading 142909 .iso images, burning and installing each disc on to every computer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31545652</id>
	<title>Re:No free lunch, but a range of benefits.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269002580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Is Germany still tattooing the employee IDs on the programmer's wrists?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is Germany still tattooing the employee IDs on the programmer 's wrists ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is Germany still tattooing the employee IDs on the programmer's wrists?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543348</id>
	<title>Re:how much did this all cost?</title>
	<author>calmofthestorm</author>
	<datestamp>1268991240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I wonder how much of the  cost is migrating away from Windows and how much is migrating to Linux.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I wonder how much of the cost is migrating away from Windows and how much is migrating to Linux .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wonder how much of the  cost is migrating away from Windows and how much is migrating to Linux.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543652</id>
	<title>Re:how much did this all cost?</title>
	<author>Todd Knarr</author>
	<datestamp>1268992440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, migrating an entire organization to the newest version of Windows (with the accompanying upgrades to all the other MS software) isn't exactly cheap. That's why so many corporations are still running XP: they can't justify the costs of upgrading to Vista or Windows 7.</p><p>I note that a lot of the problems they ran into weren't problems with the Linux-based software, they were problems with the proprietary (Windows and Windows-based) software not wanting to play nice with anybody else. One advantage of moving to open-source, standards-based software is competition. In the proprietary environment all those lock-in "features" that caused all the problems during the Linux migration also act to keep you locked in to a single vendor who can then charge high prices because you've no alternative. Once you're on standards-based and open-source software, though, <i>any</i> vendor can come in and take it over. That leads to lower costs down the road because you can dump vendors who try to over-charge without any disruption to your systems.</p><p>It also leads to lower migration costs the next time. OpenOffice doesn't provide some features you need? You can replace it with any other software that handles ODF without any disruption and without any problems with document formatting. Need to talk to another organization that doesn't use OpenOffice? No problem, as long as their software understands ODF you should be able to read each other's documents reliably and correctly (and right now I think the only major word-processing software out there that doesn't handle ODF correctly is Microsoft Word).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , migrating an entire organization to the newest version of Windows ( with the accompanying upgrades to all the other MS software ) is n't exactly cheap .
That 's why so many corporations are still running XP : they ca n't justify the costs of upgrading to Vista or Windows 7.I note that a lot of the problems they ran into were n't problems with the Linux-based software , they were problems with the proprietary ( Windows and Windows-based ) software not wanting to play nice with anybody else .
One advantage of moving to open-source , standards-based software is competition .
In the proprietary environment all those lock-in " features " that caused all the problems during the Linux migration also act to keep you locked in to a single vendor who can then charge high prices because you 've no alternative .
Once you 're on standards-based and open-source software , though , any vendor can come in and take it over .
That leads to lower costs down the road because you can dump vendors who try to over-charge without any disruption to your systems.It also leads to lower migration costs the next time .
OpenOffice does n't provide some features you need ?
You can replace it with any other software that handles ODF without any disruption and without any problems with document formatting .
Need to talk to another organization that does n't use OpenOffice ?
No problem , as long as their software understands ODF you should be able to read each other 's documents reliably and correctly ( and right now I think the only major word-processing software out there that does n't handle ODF correctly is Microsoft Word ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, migrating an entire organization to the newest version of Windows (with the accompanying upgrades to all the other MS software) isn't exactly cheap.
That's why so many corporations are still running XP: they can't justify the costs of upgrading to Vista or Windows 7.I note that a lot of the problems they ran into weren't problems with the Linux-based software, they were problems with the proprietary (Windows and Windows-based) software not wanting to play nice with anybody else.
One advantage of moving to open-source, standards-based software is competition.
In the proprietary environment all those lock-in "features" that caused all the problems during the Linux migration also act to keep you locked in to a single vendor who can then charge high prices because you've no alternative.
Once you're on standards-based and open-source software, though, any vendor can come in and take it over.
That leads to lower costs down the road because you can dump vendors who try to over-charge without any disruption to your systems.It also leads to lower migration costs the next time.
OpenOffice doesn't provide some features you need?
You can replace it with any other software that handles ODF without any disruption and without any problems with document formatting.
Need to talk to another organization that doesn't use OpenOffice?
No problem, as long as their software understands ODF you should be able to read each other's documents reliably and correctly (and right now I think the only major word-processing software out there that doesn't handle ODF correctly is Microsoft Word).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542806</id>
	<title>how much did this all cost?</title>
	<author>alen</author>
	<datestamp>1269032340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>sounds like they spent a lot of money. what is the difference in spending the money on OSS compared to MS software? the software might be free, but it sounds like you will spend the same amount of money on making everything work like it did before with the same functionality</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>sounds like they spent a lot of money .
what is the difference in spending the money on OSS compared to MS software ?
the software might be free , but it sounds like you will spend the same amount of money on making everything work like it did before with the same functionality</tokentext>
<sentencetext>sounds like they spent a lot of money.
what is the difference in spending the money on OSS compared to MS software?
the software might be free, but it sounds like you will spend the same amount of money on making everything work like it did before with the same functionality</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543582</id>
	<title>Re:The real reason its late</title>
	<author>maxwell demon</author>
	<datestamp>1268992200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>They're installing Debian, which takes approximately 18 - 19 years for a full install.</p></div></blockquote><p>I thought that was Gentoo?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>They 're installing Debian , which takes approximately 18 - 19 years for a full install.I thought that was Gentoo ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They're installing Debian, which takes approximately 18 - 19 years for a full install.I thought that was Gentoo?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542794</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543034</id>
	<title>Re:No free lunch, but a range of benefits.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268990100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They'd be paying German programmers if that was important to them.  Otherwise they'd outsource it to India like every other large organization.  The article mentions that the IT department was somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 employees.  Employees are trainable.  It doesn't matter if they are running Linux, Windows, Unix or OSX.  Their systems required trained administrators.</p><p>To all the OSS zealots, where is the cost savings on labor?  Where is the meme that it takes more labor resources to manage Windows servers?  Is Munich going to downsize their IT department once they're done with their Linux migration?  Or are they going to find themselves living in the real world and realize that x number and y number of applications requires z number of staff to support?</p><p>I wonder how much of the "cost savings" on software licenses is being consumed by developer hours recreating functionality.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They 'd be paying German programmers if that was important to them .
Otherwise they 'd outsource it to India like every other large organization .
The article mentions that the IT department was somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 employees .
Employees are trainable .
It does n't matter if they are running Linux , Windows , Unix or OSX .
Their systems required trained administrators.To all the OSS zealots , where is the cost savings on labor ?
Where is the meme that it takes more labor resources to manage Windows servers ?
Is Munich going to downsize their IT department once they 're done with their Linux migration ?
Or are they going to find themselves living in the real world and realize that x number and y number of applications requires z number of staff to support ? I wonder how much of the " cost savings " on software licenses is being consumed by developer hours recreating functionality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They'd be paying German programmers if that was important to them.
Otherwise they'd outsource it to India like every other large organization.
The article mentions that the IT department was somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 employees.
Employees are trainable.
It doesn't matter if they are running Linux, Windows, Unix or OSX.
Their systems required trained administrators.To all the OSS zealots, where is the cost savings on labor?
Where is the meme that it takes more labor resources to manage Windows servers?
Is Munich going to downsize their IT department once they're done with their Linux migration?
Or are they going to find themselves living in the real world and realize that x number and y number of applications requires z number of staff to support?I wonder how much of the "cost savings" on software licenses is being consumed by developer hours recreating functionality.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31544196</id>
	<title>Re:Wrong approach</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268994840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem with converting the desktop OS last is that it creates a *lot* of extra work. First, you do all the work to make everything work with Windows as the desktop OS. Then, just when you get that working, you turn around and flush it and switch to Linux instead? Talk about a lot of wasted effort.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem with converting the desktop OS last is that it creates a * lot * of extra work .
First , you do all the work to make everything work with Windows as the desktop OS .
Then , just when you get that working , you turn around and flush it and switch to Linux instead ?
Talk about a lot of wasted effort .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem with converting the desktop OS last is that it creates a *lot* of extra work.
First, you do all the work to make everything work with Windows as the desktop OS.
Then, just when you get that working, you turn around and flush it and switch to Linux instead?
Talk about a lot of wasted effort.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542990</id>
	<title>Re:how much did this all cost?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268989920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They aren't trying to make "everything work like it did before with the same functionality". They could have </p><p><div class="quote"><p>We could have switched to linux clients in just a few months, giving the order to all 21 IT units to set up a linux client until end of 2008. No further specifications, no standardization and no consolidation. I&rsquo;m pretty sure they would have done this excellent and then I would have published great news in 2007 or 2008 &ldquo;LiMux done, Munich completely on free software&rdquo;.</p> </div><p> but the aim is/was to move from a very heterogeneous network (in terms of used OS and software solutions) to some overall standard, which is why it takes so long.</p><p>Can I still keep my geek card if I actually read TFA?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>They are n't trying to make " everything work like it did before with the same functionality " .
They could have We could have switched to linux clients in just a few months , giving the order to all 21 IT units to set up a linux client until end of 2008 .
No further specifications , no standardization and no consolidation .
I    m pretty sure they would have done this excellent and then I would have published great news in 2007 or 2008    LiMux done , Munich completely on free software    .
but the aim is/was to move from a very heterogeneous network ( in terms of used OS and software solutions ) to some overall standard , which is why it takes so long.Can I still keep my geek card if I actually read TFA ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They aren't trying to make "everything work like it did before with the same functionality".
They could have We could have switched to linux clients in just a few months, giving the order to all 21 IT units to set up a linux client until end of 2008.
No further specifications, no standardization and no consolidation.
I’m pretty sure they would have done this excellent and then I would have published great news in 2007 or 2008 “LiMux done, Munich completely on free software”.
but the aim is/was to move from a very heterogeneous network (in terms of used OS and software solutions) to some overall standard, which is why it takes so long.Can I still keep my geek card if I actually read TFA?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542550</id>
	<title>woa!  Smit thee with penquin turds!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269031140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yup !!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yup !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yup !
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542936</id>
	<title>Good that they're reaching out</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268989680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's good that they're talking about it to the community, maybe there's something we can do to help.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's good that they 're talking about it to the community , maybe there 's something we can do to help .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's good that they're talking about it to the community, maybe there's something we can do to help.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31548712</id>
	<title>Well.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269091200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You didn't provide a single link to back up your assertions, so maybe it is important but not prominent (I know of a big bank, one of those involved in the global financial crisis, that just in one location has 500 Red Hat desktops, but they don't go around talking about it).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You did n't provide a single link to back up your assertions , so maybe it is important but not prominent ( I know of a big bank , one of those involved in the global financial crisis , that just in one location has 500 Red Hat desktops , but they do n't go around talking about it ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You didn't provide a single link to back up your assertions, so maybe it is important but not prominent (I know of a big bank, one of those involved in the global financial crisis, that just in one location has 500 Red Hat desktops, but they don't go around talking about it).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543130</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31545810</id>
	<title>Re:The real reason its late</title>
	<author>elashish14</author>
	<datestamp>1269003540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That or he meant a <i>new version</i> rather than a full install.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That or he meant a new version rather than a full install .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That or he meant a new version rather than a full install.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543456</id>
	<title>Perspective</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1268991720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>How does this compare to the problems experienced by people migrating 15,000 clients running various Windows releases to Windows 7? Is migrating to Linux more or less costly than migrating to the latest release out of Redmond?</htmltext>
<tokenext>How does this compare to the problems experienced by people migrating 15,000 clients running various Windows releases to Windows 7 ?
Is migrating to Linux more or less costly than migrating to the latest release out of Redmond ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How does this compare to the problems experienced by people migrating 15,000 clients running various Windows releases to Windows 7?
Is migrating to Linux more or less costly than migrating to the latest release out of Redmond?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31545108</id>
	<title>Re:No free lunch, but a range of benefits.</title>
	<author>Bert64</author>
	<datestamp>1268999100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Those companies which specialize in windows development and management can only do so to a limited degree, they cannot modify the core of the system or provide proper support (ie bugfixes)...<br>They are effectively limited to providing first line support, and have to defer to a foreign corporation for anything more advanced.</p><p>And even if you buy through a local reseller and buy whatever support you can locally, the price of the software itself is still going out of the local econony.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Those companies which specialize in windows development and management can only do so to a limited degree , they can not modify the core of the system or provide proper support ( ie bugfixes ) ...They are effectively limited to providing first line support , and have to defer to a foreign corporation for anything more advanced.And even if you buy through a local reseller and buy whatever support you can locally , the price of the software itself is still going out of the local econony .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Those companies which specialize in windows development and management can only do so to a limited degree, they cannot modify the core of the system or provide proper support (ie bugfixes)...They are effectively limited to providing first line support, and have to defer to a foreign corporation for anything more advanced.And even if you buy through a local reseller and buy whatever support you can locally, the price of the software itself is still going out of the local econony.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542856</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31544712</id>
	<title>Re:VBA</title>
	<author>oatworm</author>
	<datestamp>1268997120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>They're <a href="http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/VBA" title="openoffice.org">already grappling</a> [openoffice.org].  The problem here is that MS Office and VBA are moving targets and Microsoft isn't perfect at adhering to its documented implementation.  To Microsoft's credit, when you're dealing with something as big as VBA, it's difficult to line up documentation and behavior; that's part of the reason why standards committees take so long nailing down how something is specified and how it should be implemented.</htmltext>
<tokenext>They 're already grappling [ openoffice.org ] .
The problem here is that MS Office and VBA are moving targets and Microsoft is n't perfect at adhering to its documented implementation .
To Microsoft 's credit , when you 're dealing with something as big as VBA , it 's difficult to line up documentation and behavior ; that 's part of the reason why standards committees take so long nailing down how something is specified and how it should be implemented .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They're already grappling [openoffice.org].
The problem here is that MS Office and VBA are moving targets and Microsoft isn't perfect at adhering to its documented implementation.
To Microsoft's credit, when you're dealing with something as big as VBA, it's difficult to line up documentation and behavior; that's part of the reason why standards committees take so long nailing down how something is specified and how it should be implemented.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543714</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542628</id>
	<title>We thought about doing this in Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269031560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But we couldn't find a catchy pun or play on words to name the project, so we ditched it altogether.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But we could n't find a catchy pun or play on words to name the project , so we ditched it altogether .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But we couldn't find a catchy pun or play on words to name the project, so we ditched it altogether.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542548</id>
	<title>They should switch to all Macs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269031140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Then their IT infrastructure will be homogenous.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Then their IT infrastructure will be homogenous .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then their IT infrastructure will be homogenous.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31544390</id>
	<title>its irrelevant</title>
	<author>unity100</author>
	<datestamp>1268995740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>they would have the same problems migrating to anything, and even if they werent naive. observe the picture below<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Previously, around 1,000 staff had been maintaining the 15,000 PCs making up the Munich computing landscape in 21 independent IT centres. There was, according to Schie&#223;l, no common directory, no common user management, no common hardware or software management. There were more than 300 applications in use, many of which did the same job. On the desktop side, there were 21 different Windows systems with different update levels and security settings.</p></div></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>they would have the same problems migrating to anything , and even if they werent naive .
observe the picture below : Previously , around 1,000 staff had been maintaining the 15,000 PCs making up the Munich computing landscape in 21 independent IT centres .
There was , according to Schie   l , no common directory , no common user management , no common hardware or software management .
There were more than 300 applications in use , many of which did the same job .
On the desktop side , there were 21 different Windows systems with different update levels and security settings .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>they would have the same problems migrating to anything, and even if they werent naive.
observe the picture below :Previously, around 1,000 staff had been maintaining the 15,000 PCs making up the Munich computing landscape in 21 independent IT centres.
There was, according to Schießl, no common directory, no common user management, no common hardware or software management.
There were more than 300 applications in use, many of which did the same job.
On the desktop side, there were 21 different Windows systems with different update levels and security settings.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543786</id>
	<title>Limuxwatch</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268993280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seems that the good ol' Limuxwatch troll woke up again:</p><p><a href="http://limuxwatch.blogspot.com/" title="blogspot.com">http://limuxwatch.blogspot.com/</a> [blogspot.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seems that the good ol ' Limuxwatch troll woke up again : http : //limuxwatch.blogspot.com/ [ blogspot.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seems that the good ol' Limuxwatch troll woke up again:http://limuxwatch.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543664</id>
	<title>As usual</title>
	<author>OpenSourced</author>
	<datestamp>1268992500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The real problem then was that they didn't made an in-depth analysis of what they were using originally. It's always the same. Lately (it's more often lately, I have to recognize that the wall of MS starts to show some cracks) some computer guy in a company will get to me and say "we are planning to move to Open Office (not full Linux, not yet). What do you think?" And then I ask: "What do you have mounted on MS Office?. I mean macros, Access applications, complex Excel sheets..." And they don't know. They have some general idea of the bigger Access apps, but nothing else. And regardless of it, they dare to make a plan of migration. Not only that, they, as very likely the manager in charge of the Munich migration, get paid much more than I do! I guess blind optimism is more valued than knowledgeable pessimism.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The real problem then was that they did n't made an in-depth analysis of what they were using originally .
It 's always the same .
Lately ( it 's more often lately , I have to recognize that the wall of MS starts to show some cracks ) some computer guy in a company will get to me and say " we are planning to move to Open Office ( not full Linux , not yet ) .
What do you think ?
" And then I ask : " What do you have mounted on MS Office ? .
I mean macros , Access applications , complex Excel sheets... " And they do n't know .
They have some general idea of the bigger Access apps , but nothing else .
And regardless of it , they dare to make a plan of migration .
Not only that , they , as very likely the manager in charge of the Munich migration , get paid much more than I do !
I guess blind optimism is more valued than knowledgeable pessimism .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The real problem then was that they didn't made an in-depth analysis of what they were using originally.
It's always the same.
Lately (it's more often lately, I have to recognize that the wall of MS starts to show some cracks) some computer guy in a company will get to me and say "we are planning to move to Open Office (not full Linux, not yet).
What do you think?
" And then I ask: "What do you have mounted on MS Office?.
I mean macros, Access applications, complex Excel sheets..." And they don't know.
They have some general idea of the bigger Access apps, but nothing else.
And regardless of it, they dare to make a plan of migration.
Not only that, they, as very likely the manager in charge of the Munich migration, get paid much more than I do!
I guess blind optimism is more valued than knowledgeable pessimism.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543640</id>
	<title>Sounds painful</title>
	<author>Anonymous Struct</author>
	<datestamp>1268992380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But honestly, a lot of the problems he's talking about aren't Linux migration problems, they're problems with how things were being done.  Converting this city from where it was at to Windows 7 and Server 2k8 doesn't sound like it would have been any easier.  At least when they're done with this, they'll be on an open platform instead of another closed one.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But honestly , a lot of the problems he 's talking about are n't Linux migration problems , they 're problems with how things were being done .
Converting this city from where it was at to Windows 7 and Server 2k8 does n't sound like it would have been any easier .
At least when they 're done with this , they 'll be on an open platform instead of another closed one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But honestly, a lot of the problems he's talking about aren't Linux migration problems, they're problems with how things were being done.
Converting this city from where it was at to Windows 7 and Server 2k8 doesn't sound like it would have been any easier.
At least when they're done with this, they'll be on an open platform instead of another closed one.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542890</id>
	<title>Similar stories</title>
	<author>diegocg</author>
	<datestamp>1268989560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Regional government of the autonomous community of Valencia (Spain) also <a href="http://lwn.net/Articles/338511/" title="lwn.net">switched</a> [lwn.net] to free software, last year they released a <a href="http://www.gvpontis.gva.es/fileadmin/conselleria/images/Documentacion/memoria/gvpontis\_ingles.pdf" title="gvpontis.gva.es">detailed report</a> [gvpontis.gva.es] (english) of the problems they found and how they fixed it. It took a lot of time to complete it (4 years) and they still depend on propietary software for some systems. These migrations need a lot of work...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Regional government of the autonomous community of Valencia ( Spain ) also switched [ lwn.net ] to free software , last year they released a detailed report [ gvpontis.gva.es ] ( english ) of the problems they found and how they fixed it .
It took a lot of time to complete it ( 4 years ) and they still depend on propietary software for some systems .
These migrations need a lot of work.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Regional government of the autonomous community of Valencia (Spain) also switched [lwn.net] to free software, last year they released a detailed report [gvpontis.gva.es] (english) of the problems they found and how they fixed it.
It took a lot of time to complete it (4 years) and they still depend on propietary software for some systems.
These migrations need a lot of work...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543270</id>
	<title>Re:Bad title is bad.</title>
	<author>Obfuscant</author>
	<datestamp>1268991000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>there is much digital waste to be cleaned up on exit from the proprietary.</i> <p>
This is not a proprietary/FOSS issue. Every programmer knows that version 2 of the code is better than version 1. More than once I've "rm *<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.o" and gotten rid of more than just the objects on the way to recompiling them all, and every time that happens, the code I write to replace what went away is tighter, cleaner, and runs faster. I already know what works, I already know the processes, and I usually come up with a better solution to doing the same thing. (Of course I never benefit from that now, since it taught me to use RCS...)</p><p>
This would happen with a change from Proprietary A to Proprietary B just as much as from Proprietary to FOSS. Or FOSS to proprietary.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>there is much digital waste to be cleaned up on exit from the proprietary .
This is not a proprietary/FOSS issue .
Every programmer knows that version 2 of the code is better than version 1 .
More than once I 've " rm * .o " and gotten rid of more than just the objects on the way to recompiling them all , and every time that happens , the code I write to replace what went away is tighter , cleaner , and runs faster .
I already know what works , I already know the processes , and I usually come up with a better solution to doing the same thing .
( Of course I never benefit from that now , since it taught me to use RCS... ) This would happen with a change from Proprietary A to Proprietary B just as much as from Proprietary to FOSS .
Or FOSS to proprietary .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>there is much digital waste to be cleaned up on exit from the proprietary.
This is not a proprietary/FOSS issue.
Every programmer knows that version 2 of the code is better than version 1.
More than once I've "rm * .o" and gotten rid of more than just the objects on the way to recompiling them all, and every time that happens, the code I write to replace what went away is tighter, cleaner, and runs faster.
I already know what works, I already know the processes, and I usually come up with a better solution to doing the same thing.
(Of course I never benefit from that now, since it taught me to use RCS...)
This would happen with a change from Proprietary A to Proprietary B just as much as from Proprietary to FOSS.
Or FOSS to proprietary.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542668</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31544370</id>
	<title>dissolve the filth, den Filz auskaemmen</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268995620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I tip my hat to the Munich Municipality and Mr. Schiessl who pulled that project throught! <p>

I can see here in Vienna, Austria, what influence M$ has on local decisison makers: </p><p>
The migration project of Vienna weas cut short ( or terminated ) because there was a Kindergarten Software in VB which would not run under Linux. ( The SW-company offered to rewqrite it for Linux, but that was turned down ) </p><p>
Another poster here wrote that they can have now German Programmers modifying the programs to what they like.
And the money stays so to say in town.</p><p>
The US economy - under B. Obama will try to push their IP laws onto the whole world, as that is the only thing bringing enough cash for the US: a 2 cent plastic disk is sold for hundreds of Dollars. Thats business.</p><p>
The US economy depends on it - if they can not keep it up, then there is trouble ahead.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I tip my hat to the Munich Municipality and Mr. Schiessl who pulled that project throught !
I can see here in Vienna , Austria , what influence M $ has on local decisison makers : The migration project of Vienna weas cut short ( or terminated ) because there was a Kindergarten Software in VB which would not run under Linux .
( The SW-company offered to rewqrite it for Linux , but that was turned down ) Another poster here wrote that they can have now German Programmers modifying the programs to what they like .
And the money stays so to say in town .
The US economy - under B. Obama will try to push their IP laws onto the whole world , as that is the only thing bringing enough cash for the US : a 2 cent plastic disk is sold for hundreds of Dollars .
Thats business .
The US economy depends on it - if they can not keep it up , then there is trouble ahead .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I tip my hat to the Munich Municipality and Mr. Schiessl who pulled that project throught!
I can see here in Vienna, Austria, what influence M$ has on local decisison makers: 
The migration project of Vienna weas cut short ( or terminated ) because there was a Kindergarten Software in VB which would not run under Linux.
( The SW-company offered to rewqrite it for Linux, but that was turned down ) 
Another poster here wrote that they can have now German Programmers modifying the programs to what they like.
And the money stays so to say in town.
The US economy - under B. Obama will try to push their IP laws onto the whole world, as that is the only thing bringing enough cash for the US: a 2 cent plastic disk is sold for hundreds of Dollars.
Thats business.
The US economy depends on it - if they can not keep it up, then there is trouble ahead.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543360</id>
	<title>Problems with linux installations</title>
	<author>bigredradio</author>
	<datestamp>1268991300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>la la la la la la la<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...I can't hear you<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...la la la la la la la la</htmltext>
<tokenext>la la la la la la la ...I ca n't hear you ...la la la la la la la la</tokentext>
<sentencetext>la la la la la la la ...I can't hear you ...la la la la la la la la</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31545532</id>
	<title>Clue... less</title>
	<author>frank\_adrian314159</author>
	<datestamp>1269001800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I read TFA, what he said was as predictable as the sunrise the next morning.  They were surprised because a Microsoft network had apps that had dependencies on Microsoft products?  That there were large numbers of VBA and macros?  That vendors weren't particularly gleeful about supporting Linux?</p><p>Christ, as clueless as these people were, it's a wonder they're able to migrate their asses to work each morning let alone one OS to another.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I read TFA , what he said was as predictable as the sunrise the next morning .
They were surprised because a Microsoft network had apps that had dependencies on Microsoft products ?
That there were large numbers of VBA and macros ?
That vendors were n't particularly gleeful about supporting Linux ? Christ , as clueless as these people were , it 's a wonder they 're able to migrate their asses to work each morning let alone one OS to another .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I read TFA, what he said was as predictable as the sunrise the next morning.
They were surprised because a Microsoft network had apps that had dependencies on Microsoft products?
That there were large numbers of VBA and macros?
That vendors weren't particularly gleeful about supporting Linux?Christ, as clueless as these people were, it's a wonder they're able to migrate their asses to work each morning let alone one OS to another.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31544288</id>
	<title>Re:Why so prominent?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268995260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh cool poor niggers and spics are more prominent than Aryans. Pfft ok.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh cool poor niggers and spics are more prominent than Aryans .
Pfft ok .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh cool poor niggers and spics are more prominent than Aryans.
Pfft ok.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543130</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543228</id>
	<title>Re:No free lunch, but a range of benefits.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268990880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sorry but I don't see how this argument holds up.</p><p>All the big interesting FOSS packages are developed wherever they are developed. Meanwhile, the local customization and workflow apps are generally done locally even with closed source. There's probably only a handful of situations where some proprietary vertical app could be replaced with a locally developed alternative, and as far as I know Munich has not released any such things as "FOSS".</p><p>However Slashdot will mod up anything that sounds like a full employment act for developers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry but I do n't see how this argument holds up.All the big interesting FOSS packages are developed wherever they are developed .
Meanwhile , the local customization and workflow apps are generally done locally even with closed source .
There 's probably only a handful of situations where some proprietary vertical app could be replaced with a locally developed alternative , and as far as I know Munich has not released any such things as " FOSS " .However Slashdot will mod up anything that sounds like a full employment act for developers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry but I don't see how this argument holds up.All the big interesting FOSS packages are developed wherever they are developed.
Meanwhile, the local customization and workflow apps are generally done locally even with closed source.
There's probably only a handful of situations where some proprietary vertical app could be replaced with a locally developed alternative, and as far as I know Munich has not released any such things as "FOSS".However Slashdot will mod up anything that sounds like a full employment act for developers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543134</id>
	<title>Re:how much did this all cost?</title>
	<author>diegocg</author>
	<datestamp>1268990580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If I remember correctly, switching to open source was more expensive than keeping the propietary software. But they still went for open source and open standards, because long term it would be more cheap - no licenses, possibility of choosing different software that implements the same protocol, posibility of choosing better software vendors, not just one...etc etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If I remember correctly , switching to open source was more expensive than keeping the propietary software .
But they still went for open source and open standards , because long term it would be more cheap - no licenses , possibility of choosing different software that implements the same protocol , posibility of choosing better software vendors , not just one...etc etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I remember correctly, switching to open source was more expensive than keeping the propietary software.
But they still went for open source and open standards, because long term it would be more cheap - no licenses, possibility of choosing different software that implements the same protocol, posibility of choosing better software vendors, not just one...etc etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31544464</id>
	<title>Re:Why so prominent?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268995980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some possible explanations:</p><p>Perhaps it's because Munich is in Europe, and so the opposite side (i.e. Microsoft) tried to make more noise about it, because they had higher hopes of stopping a major change. I wouldn't be surprised if they more easily shrugged Brazil off as a "lost cause" to them because the relative prize tags are considerably more in favor of free software.</p><p>Another possibility is that Germans might have a higher affinity to the English-speaking parts of the web than Brazilians, and so Germans are more strongly represented on Slashdot than Brazilians.</p><p>Mind you, I don't know if any of that's true, just brainstorming. Anyway, thanks for pointing out those numbers, they're very good to know.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some possible explanations : Perhaps it 's because Munich is in Europe , and so the opposite side ( i.e .
Microsoft ) tried to make more noise about it , because they had higher hopes of stopping a major change .
I would n't be surprised if they more easily shrugged Brazil off as a " lost cause " to them because the relative prize tags are considerably more in favor of free software.Another possibility is that Germans might have a higher affinity to the English-speaking parts of the web than Brazilians , and so Germans are more strongly represented on Slashdot than Brazilians.Mind you , I do n't know if any of that 's true , just brainstorming .
Anyway , thanks for pointing out those numbers , they 're very good to know .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some possible explanations:Perhaps it's because Munich is in Europe, and so the opposite side (i.e.
Microsoft) tried to make more noise about it, because they had higher hopes of stopping a major change.
I wouldn't be surprised if they more easily shrugged Brazil off as a "lost cause" to them because the relative prize tags are considerably more in favor of free software.Another possibility is that Germans might have a higher affinity to the English-speaking parts of the web than Brazilians, and so Germans are more strongly represented on Slashdot than Brazilians.Mind you, I don't know if any of that's true, just brainstorming.
Anyway, thanks for pointing out those numbers, they're very good to know.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543130</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31546318</id>
	<title>Re:Why so prominent?</title>
	<author>iksrazal\_br</author>
	<datestamp>1269007500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"The Bank of Brazil has branches and offices all over Brazil, which is a very large country. The mass migration happened in 2006, before the migration really began in Munich. "
<br>  <br> 
As an American expatriate, living in Brazil, who has a bank account at the Bank of Brazil, and until recently worked for the Brazilian government doing everything from linux embedded to java, lets not get carried away.  The ATM's all run OS/2 from what I've seen. Their online site uses java security which ironically often breaks both opera and firefox access for linux users - if you call their support they will tell you they don't support linux.
<br>  <br> 
And imho don't trust any numbers you see from the Brazilian government - any mandates are ignored at will. Their is lots of open source in the government, but its used in pragmatic way, not because its required.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" The Bank of Brazil has branches and offices all over Brazil , which is a very large country .
The mass migration happened in 2006 , before the migration really began in Munich .
" As an American expatriate , living in Brazil , who has a bank account at the Bank of Brazil , and until recently worked for the Brazilian government doing everything from linux embedded to java , lets not get carried away .
The ATM 's all run OS/2 from what I 've seen .
Their online site uses java security which ironically often breaks both opera and firefox access for linux users - if you call their support they will tell you they do n't support linux .
And imho do n't trust any numbers you see from the Brazilian government - any mandates are ignored at will .
Their is lots of open source in the government , but its used in pragmatic way , not because its required .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"The Bank of Brazil has branches and offices all over Brazil, which is a very large country.
The mass migration happened in 2006, before the migration really began in Munich.
"
   
As an American expatriate, living in Brazil, who has a bank account at the Bank of Brazil, and until recently worked for the Brazilian government doing everything from linux embedded to java, lets not get carried away.
The ATM's all run OS/2 from what I've seen.
Their online site uses java security which ironically often breaks both opera and firefox access for linux users - if you call their support they will tell you they don't support linux.
And imho don't trust any numbers you see from the Brazilian government - any mandates are ignored at will.
Their is lots of open source in the government, but its used in pragmatic way, not because its required.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543130</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543170</id>
	<title>Re:how much did this all cost?</title>
	<author>Josef Meixner</author>
	<datestamp>1268990700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They hope to save in the future. As a lot of the costs are consolidating their terrible IT landscape it is not clear, what a migration to the latest MS offering would have costs, either. It is not as if it would have been free either, who knows how many of the macros would have broken down when run in a current version of Excel, who knows how many old programs might stop working on Vista (and be it due to a stupid installer). It would have been cheaper, at least probably because a lot would have still worked, but when they write that they found 21 different Windows setups with differing patch levels and security settings, I am not so sure if it really would have been cheaper.</p><p>What they probably hope is, that the next migration will be cheaper, the OSS they use won't cost them to upgrade, the costs of the upgrade in work to be done by their IT department are probably not very different when upgrading a Linux solution from a MS solution. But all the work to get their systems closer to a common base might actually make the next big roll out simpler and therefor cheaper.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They hope to save in the future .
As a lot of the costs are consolidating their terrible IT landscape it is not clear , what a migration to the latest MS offering would have costs , either .
It is not as if it would have been free either , who knows how many of the macros would have broken down when run in a current version of Excel , who knows how many old programs might stop working on Vista ( and be it due to a stupid installer ) .
It would have been cheaper , at least probably because a lot would have still worked , but when they write that they found 21 different Windows setups with differing patch levels and security settings , I am not so sure if it really would have been cheaper.What they probably hope is , that the next migration will be cheaper , the OSS they use wo n't cost them to upgrade , the costs of the upgrade in work to be done by their IT department are probably not very different when upgrading a Linux solution from a MS solution .
But all the work to get their systems closer to a common base might actually make the next big roll out simpler and therefor cheaper .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They hope to save in the future.
As a lot of the costs are consolidating their terrible IT landscape it is not clear, what a migration to the latest MS offering would have costs, either.
It is not as if it would have been free either, who knows how many of the macros would have broken down when run in a current version of Excel, who knows how many old programs might stop working on Vista (and be it due to a stupid installer).
It would have been cheaper, at least probably because a lot would have still worked, but when they write that they found 21 different Windows setups with differing patch levels and security settings, I am not so sure if it really would have been cheaper.What they probably hope is, that the next migration will be cheaper, the OSS they use won't cost them to upgrade, the costs of the upgrade in work to be done by their IT department are probably not very different when upgrading a Linux solution from a MS solution.
But all the work to get their systems closer to a common base might actually make the next big roll out simpler and therefor cheaper.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542846</id>
	<title>Here's his problem...</title>
	<author>MikeRT</author>
	<datestamp>1268989320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Previously, around 1,000 staff had been maintaining the 15,000 PCs making up the Munich computing landscape in 21 independent IT centres. There was, according to Schie&#223;l, no common directory, no common user management, no common hardware or software management. There were more than 300 applications in use, many of which did the same job. On the desktop side, there were 21 different Windows systems with different update levels and security settings</p></div>
</blockquote><p>

You can't convert a bureaucracy like this anymore than you can build a political/military empire by invading a dozen good size countries and trying to integrate them all at once. Rome wasn't built in a day. They should have gone in first with the intention of standardizing things, straightening out all of the kinks and quirks each little fief had. All of the file servers here where possible, all OpenOffice there...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Previously , around 1,000 staff had been maintaining the 15,000 PCs making up the Munich computing landscape in 21 independent IT centres .
There was , according to Schie   l , no common directory , no common user management , no common hardware or software management .
There were more than 300 applications in use , many of which did the same job .
On the desktop side , there were 21 different Windows systems with different update levels and security settings You ca n't convert a bureaucracy like this anymore than you can build a political/military empire by invading a dozen good size countries and trying to integrate them all at once .
Rome was n't built in a day .
They should have gone in first with the intention of standardizing things , straightening out all of the kinks and quirks each little fief had .
All of the file servers here where possible , all OpenOffice there.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Previously, around 1,000 staff had been maintaining the 15,000 PCs making up the Munich computing landscape in 21 independent IT centres.
There was, according to Schießl, no common directory, no common user management, no common hardware or software management.
There were more than 300 applications in use, many of which did the same job.
On the desktop side, there were 21 different Windows systems with different update levels and security settings


You can't convert a bureaucracy like this anymore than you can build a political/military empire by invading a dozen good size countries and trying to integrate them all at once.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
They should have gone in first with the intention of standardizing things, straightening out all of the kinks and quirks each little fief had.
All of the file servers here where possible, all OpenOffice there...
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543526</id>
	<title>Wait for it...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268991900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Countdown to Microsoft using this situation for "the REAL cost of Linux" in 3...2...1...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Countdown to Microsoft using this situation for " the REAL cost of Linux " in 3...2...1.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Countdown to Microsoft using this situation for "the REAL cost of Linux" in 3...2...1...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542668</id>
	<title>Bad title is bad.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269031740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I recommend to read the blog as it's more informative and it's also rather optimistic. Not just woes as the title would lead you to believe. Of course making the switch to free software takes work, but it's a great opportunity for constant improvement and as Mr. Shiessl points out, there is much digital waste to be cleaned up on exit from the proprietary.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I recommend to read the blog as it 's more informative and it 's also rather optimistic .
Not just woes as the title would lead you to believe .
Of course making the switch to free software takes work , but it 's a great opportunity for constant improvement and as Mr. Shiessl points out , there is much digital waste to be cleaned up on exit from the proprietary .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I recommend to read the blog as it's more informative and it's also rather optimistic.
Not just woes as the title would lead you to believe.
Of course making the switch to free software takes work, but it's a great opportunity for constant improvement and as Mr. Shiessl points out, there is much digital waste to be cleaned up on exit from the proprietary.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31545298</id>
	<title>Re:Bad title is bad.</title>
	<author>Lulfas</author>
	<datestamp>1269000060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It was also a great opportunity to waste $10m at a time when Germany is about ready to get bent over to pay for the useless Greeks.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It was also a great opportunity to waste $ 10m at a time when Germany is about ready to get bent over to pay for the useless Greeks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It was also a great opportunity to waste $10m at a time when Germany is about ready to get bent over to pay for the useless Greeks.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542668</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543662</id>
	<title>Re:They should switch to all Macs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268992500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://typicalmacintoshuser.com/" title="typicalmacintoshuser.com" rel="nofollow">Yeth they would</a> [typicalmacintoshuser.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeth they would [ typicalmacintoshuser.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeth they would [typicalmacintoshuser.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542548</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31548908</id>
	<title>Re:As usual</title>
	<author>dotancohen</author>
	<datestamp>1269093840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>blind optimism is more valued than knowledgeable pessimism.</p></div><p>The truest quote I've ever heard. I am going to use that, what's your real name so that I can properly attribute it?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>blind optimism is more valued than knowledgeable pessimism.The truest quote I 've ever heard .
I am going to use that , what 's your real name so that I can properly attribute it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>blind optimism is more valued than knowledgeable pessimism.The truest quote I've ever heard.
I am going to use that, what's your real name so that I can properly attribute it?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543952</id>
	<title>Re:The real reason its late</title>
	<author>shish</author>
	<datestamp>1268993880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>People download more than the first debian ISO? I don't even do that; just grab the netinst, boot, and hit "enter" to select the defaults for a couple of minutes; total process about 30 minutes including download time...</htmltext>
<tokenext>People download more than the first debian ISO ?
I do n't even do that ; just grab the netinst , boot , and hit " enter " to select the defaults for a couple of minutes ; total process about 30 minutes including download time.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People download more than the first debian ISO?
I don't even do that; just grab the netinst, boot, and hit "enter" to select the defaults for a couple of minutes; total process about 30 minutes including download time...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542794</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542956</id>
	<title>Re:Bad title is bad.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268989800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Very true, by the sound of the blog most of their problems stem from how poorly the systems were managed before.  Different versions of Windows running different levels of updates; hundreds of authorized apps, many with overlapping or duplicate functionality; unauthorized applications that had made their way into the work-flows without being documented; proprietary software that didn't follow open standards.  I wonder how much of their effort has gone into just getting their infrastructure should have been before the transition even started.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Very true , by the sound of the blog most of their problems stem from how poorly the systems were managed before .
Different versions of Windows running different levels of updates ; hundreds of authorized apps , many with overlapping or duplicate functionality ; unauthorized applications that had made their way into the work-flows without being documented ; proprietary software that did n't follow open standards .
I wonder how much of their effort has gone into just getting their infrastructure should have been before the transition even started .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Very true, by the sound of the blog most of their problems stem from how poorly the systems were managed before.
Different versions of Windows running different levels of updates; hundreds of authorized apps, many with overlapping or duplicate functionality; unauthorized applications that had made their way into the work-flows without being documented; proprietary software that didn't follow open standards.
I wonder how much of their effort has gone into just getting their infrastructure should have been before the transition even started.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542668</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543020</id>
	<title>Re:how much did this all cost?</title>
	<author>CityZen</author>
	<datestamp>1268989980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not really possible to asses that.  The article really doesn't have much to say about Linux, so much as it was about all the crufty patchwork of multiple systems they were using before.  There's a big cost associated with continuing to use the current kludges, though it is difficult to assign hard numbers to, since they come in the form of lost opportunities and inefficiency spread throughout the whole organization.</p><p>Moving to any modern, unified system, whether based around Microsoft software or OSS, is a tremendous task for a big organization like that.  And without a parallel universe (that made the other choice) to compare to, you cannot really say which choice was better.  You can only guess.  Sure, you can try to make an educated guess by trying to figure out how much of the legacy applications will still work on the new system without changes, but until you try to actually do that work, you won't know how wrong you were.  [99\% compatible is worthless if you were depending upon the 1\% of things that don't work.]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not really possible to asses that .
The article really does n't have much to say about Linux , so much as it was about all the crufty patchwork of multiple systems they were using before .
There 's a big cost associated with continuing to use the current kludges , though it is difficult to assign hard numbers to , since they come in the form of lost opportunities and inefficiency spread throughout the whole organization.Moving to any modern , unified system , whether based around Microsoft software or OSS , is a tremendous task for a big organization like that .
And without a parallel universe ( that made the other choice ) to compare to , you can not really say which choice was better .
You can only guess .
Sure , you can try to make an educated guess by trying to figure out how much of the legacy applications will still work on the new system without changes , but until you try to actually do that work , you wo n't know how wrong you were .
[ 99 \ % compatible is worthless if you were depending upon the 1 \ % of things that do n't work .
]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not really possible to asses that.
The article really doesn't have much to say about Linux, so much as it was about all the crufty patchwork of multiple systems they were using before.
There's a big cost associated with continuing to use the current kludges, though it is difficult to assign hard numbers to, since they come in the form of lost opportunities and inefficiency spread throughout the whole organization.Moving to any modern, unified system, whether based around Microsoft software or OSS, is a tremendous task for a big organization like that.
And without a parallel universe (that made the other choice) to compare to, you cannot really say which choice was better.
You can only guess.
Sure, you can try to make an educated guess by trying to figure out how much of the legacy applications will still work on the new system without changes, but until you try to actually do that work, you won't know how wrong you were.
[99\% compatible is worthless if you were depending upon the 1\% of things that don't work.
]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31545548</id>
	<title>Re:Why so prominent?</title>
	<author>Jah-Wren Ryel</author>
	<datestamp>1269001860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Why is the Linux migration project in Munich so prominent, as mentioned in TFS?</p></div><p>Because the guy who wrote it is German and lives in Munich.</p><p>There's nothing stopping you from writing up a submission about Banco do Brasil yourself.  You seem to have access to a source with a whole bunch of good information, I'm sure a success story like the one you described would get coverage on slashdot too if someone made the effort to submit it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is the Linux migration project in Munich so prominent , as mentioned in TFS ? Because the guy who wrote it is German and lives in Munich.There 's nothing stopping you from writing up a submission about Banco do Brasil yourself .
You seem to have access to a source with a whole bunch of good information , I 'm sure a success story like the one you described would get coverage on slashdot too if someone made the effort to submit it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is the Linux migration project in Munich so prominent, as mentioned in TFS?Because the guy who wrote it is German and lives in Munich.There's nothing stopping you from writing up a submission about Banco do Brasil yourself.
You seem to have access to a source with a whole bunch of good information, I'm sure a success story like the one you described would get coverage on slashdot too if someone made the effort to submit it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543130</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542632</id>
	<title>Re:They should switch to all Macs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269031560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Then their IT infrastructure will be homogenous.</p></div><p>Well, at least we're not homophobic.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Then their IT infrastructure will be homogenous.Well , at least we 're not homophobic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then their IT infrastructure will be homogenous.Well, at least we're not homophobic.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542548</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31545994</id>
	<title>Woes oh woes</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269004620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It was mostly micosoft saying 'whoa'.  I have no doubts that there are some people who are paid by them to be an obstacle.  The thing those people have to understand is: the new system *really is* better, and being too big an obstacle, and being too stubborn will get you an opportunity to offer your skills somewhere else.  The thing to do is to embrace the new system, discover what it can do, see what problems it solves, and move on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It was mostly micosoft saying 'whoa' .
I have no doubts that there are some people who are paid by them to be an obstacle .
The thing those people have to understand is : the new system * really is * better , and being too big an obstacle , and being too stubborn will get you an opportunity to offer your skills somewhere else .
The thing to do is to embrace the new system , discover what it can do , see what problems it solves , and move on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It was mostly micosoft saying 'whoa'.
I have no doubts that there are some people who are paid by them to be an obstacle.
The thing those people have to understand is: the new system *really is* better, and being too big an obstacle, and being too stubborn will get you an opportunity to offer your skills somewhere else.
The thing to do is to embrace the new system, discover what it can do, see what problems it solves, and move on.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31544262</id>
	<title>Re:Why so prominent?</title>
	<author>Josir</author>
	<datestamp>1268995080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why is the Linux migration is so proeminent? because it's damned late. If it was done on planned schedule, people would not talk about it.
In fact, for some bureocrats, if it on time, it is fine even if the final product quality is questionable. What matter is to fill the Gantt's chart!!!

If the Banco do Brasil project failed in any aspect, a lot of "analysts" would be talking about them daily!!!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is the Linux migration is so proeminent ?
because it 's damned late .
If it was done on planned schedule , people would not talk about it .
In fact , for some bureocrats , if it on time , it is fine even if the final product quality is questionable .
What matter is to fill the Gantt 's chart ! ! !
If the Banco do Brasil project failed in any aspect , a lot of " analysts " would be talking about them daily ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is the Linux migration is so proeminent?
because it's damned late.
If it was done on planned schedule, people would not talk about it.
In fact, for some bureocrats, if it on time, it is fine even if the final product quality is questionable.
What matter is to fill the Gantt's chart!!!
If the Banco do Brasil project failed in any aspect, a lot of "analysts" would be talking about them daily!!
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543130</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31544098</id>
	<title>Re:No free lunch, but a range of benefits.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268994420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Have you ever heard of I18N?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Have you ever heard of I18N ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have you ever heard of I18N?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31545310</id>
	<title>Re:No free lunch, but a range of benefits.</title>
	<author>Bert64</author>
	<datestamp>1269000120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The development costs will be a one off...<br>Having maintained windows, linux, solaris and novell based networks my experience is basically...</p><p>You require competent staff to manage any system properly, microsoft marketing says otherwise so windows networks often end up being operated very badly by incompetent staff (and have major security and stability problems as a result)... Generally only more competent people even know linux exists, so the cheaper less competent staff will never even think to try linux - if they did the results would still be bad but probably not as bad as a poorly deployed windows setup.</p><p>If you don't mind a poor setup, windows will cost more than linux but you will probably not be able to find as many extremely cheap low skilled staff pretending to have linux skills as windows...</p><p>If you want a good secure linux setup you need decent staff...<br>If you want a good secure windows setup you not only need decent staff but also a lot of third party software...</p><p>It's also my experience that you need more staff to maintain a windows setup unless you cut corners...</p><p>The problem is corner cutting, people think they can cut corners with windows but the end result is a huge insecure mess.. 99\% of the companies i've ever been to simply don't have the budget to maintain a windows network properly..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The development costs will be a one off...Having maintained windows , linux , solaris and novell based networks my experience is basically...You require competent staff to manage any system properly , microsoft marketing says otherwise so windows networks often end up being operated very badly by incompetent staff ( and have major security and stability problems as a result ) ... Generally only more competent people even know linux exists , so the cheaper less competent staff will never even think to try linux - if they did the results would still be bad but probably not as bad as a poorly deployed windows setup.If you do n't mind a poor setup , windows will cost more than linux but you will probably not be able to find as many extremely cheap low skilled staff pretending to have linux skills as windows...If you want a good secure linux setup you need decent staff...If you want a good secure windows setup you not only need decent staff but also a lot of third party software...It 's also my experience that you need more staff to maintain a windows setup unless you cut corners...The problem is corner cutting , people think they can cut corners with windows but the end result is a huge insecure mess.. 99 \ % of the companies i 've ever been to simply do n't have the budget to maintain a windows network properly. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The development costs will be a one off...Having maintained windows, linux, solaris and novell based networks my experience is basically...You require competent staff to manage any system properly, microsoft marketing says otherwise so windows networks often end up being operated very badly by incompetent staff (and have major security and stability problems as a result)... Generally only more competent people even know linux exists, so the cheaper less competent staff will never even think to try linux - if they did the results would still be bad but probably not as bad as a poorly deployed windows setup.If you don't mind a poor setup, windows will cost more than linux but you will probably not be able to find as many extremely cheap low skilled staff pretending to have linux skills as windows...If you want a good secure linux setup you need decent staff...If you want a good secure windows setup you not only need decent staff but also a lot of third party software...It's also my experience that you need more staff to maintain a windows setup unless you cut corners...The problem is corner cutting, people think they can cut corners with windows but the end result is a huge insecure mess.. 99\% of the companies i've ever been to simply don't have the budget to maintain a windows network properly..</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543034</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31547114</id>
	<title>Re:how much did this all cost?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269016440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>it is not clear[] what a migration to the latest MS offering would have [cost]<br>[...]I am not so sure if it really would have been cheaper</i><br>Apparently, you're not aware of how Ballmer personally made the trip to Munich and offered them fire-sale prices on everything.</p><p><i>What they probably hope is[] that the next migration will be cheaper</i><br>Yup. After the prices they were offered by Ballmer, staying all-M$ would have been cheaper in the short run--but what they were doing was looking down the road.</p><p>gewg\_</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>it is not clear [ ] what a migration to the latest MS offering would have [ cost ] [ ... ] I am not so sure if it really would have been cheaperApparently , you 're not aware of how Ballmer personally made the trip to Munich and offered them fire-sale prices on everything.What they probably hope is [ ] that the next migration will be cheaperYup .
After the prices they were offered by Ballmer , staying all-M $ would have been cheaper in the short run--but what they were doing was looking down the road.gewg \ _</tokentext>
<sentencetext>it is not clear[] what a migration to the latest MS offering would have [cost][...]I am not so sure if it really would have been cheaperApparently, you're not aware of how Ballmer personally made the trip to Munich and offered them fire-sale prices on everything.What they probably hope is[] that the next migration will be cheaperYup.
After the prices they were offered by Ballmer, staying all-M$ would have been cheaper in the short run--but what they were doing was looking down the road.gewg\_</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31543170</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542788</id>
	<title>No free lunch, but a range of benefits.</title>
	<author>khasim</author>
	<datestamp>1269032280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The advantage with FOSS is that Germany can hire German programmers to modify the software used by Munich's government (which is also German).</p><p>If they stuck with proprietary products, who would they be paying to improve it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The advantage with FOSS is that Germany can hire German programmers to modify the software used by Munich 's government ( which is also German ) .If they stuck with proprietary products , who would they be paying to improve it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The advantage with FOSS is that Germany can hire German programmers to modify the software used by Munich's government (which is also German).If they stuck with proprietary products, who would they be paying to improve it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_19_1633241.31542580</parent>
</comment>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_19_1633241_31</id>
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