<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_05_155202</id>
	<title>Mariposa Botnet Authors Unlikely To See Jail Time</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1267804920000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>krebsonsecurity writes <i>"Three Spanish men were <a href="//news.slashdot.org/story/10/03/03/0328246/Mariposa-Botnet-Beheaded">arrested last month</a> for allegedly building an international network of more than 12 million hacked PCs that were used for everything from identity theft to spamming. But according to Spanish authorities and security experts who helped unravel the crime ring, the accused may very well <a href="http://www.krebsonsecurity.com/2010/03/mariposa-botnet-authors-may-avoid-jail-time/">never see the inside of a jail cell</a> even if they are ultimately found guilty, due to insufficient cyber-crime legislation in Spain. 'It is almost impossible to be sent to prison for these kinds of crimes in Spain, where prison is mainly for serious crime cases,' said Captain Cesar Lorenzana, deputy head technology crime division of the Spanish Civil Guard. ... Spain is one of nearly three dozen countries that is a signatory to the Council of Europe's cybercrime treaty, but  Spanish legislators have not yet ratified the treaty by passing anti-cybercrime laws that would bring its judicial system in line with the treaty's goals."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>krebsonsecurity writes " Three Spanish men were arrested last month for allegedly building an international network of more than 12 million hacked PCs that were used for everything from identity theft to spamming .
But according to Spanish authorities and security experts who helped unravel the crime ring , the accused may very well never see the inside of a jail cell even if they are ultimately found guilty , due to insufficient cyber-crime legislation in Spain .
'It is almost impossible to be sent to prison for these kinds of crimes in Spain , where prison is mainly for serious crime cases, ' said Captain Cesar Lorenzana , deputy head technology crime division of the Spanish Civil Guard .
... Spain is one of nearly three dozen countries that is a signatory to the Council of Europe 's cybercrime treaty , but Spanish legislators have not yet ratified the treaty by passing anti-cybercrime laws that would bring its judicial system in line with the treaty 's goals .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>krebsonsecurity writes "Three Spanish men were arrested last month for allegedly building an international network of more than 12 million hacked PCs that were used for everything from identity theft to spamming.
But according to Spanish authorities and security experts who helped unravel the crime ring, the accused may very well never see the inside of a jail cell even if they are ultimately found guilty, due to insufficient cyber-crime legislation in Spain.
'It is almost impossible to be sent to prison for these kinds of crimes in Spain, where prison is mainly for serious crime cases,' said Captain Cesar Lorenzana, deputy head technology crime division of the Spanish Civil Guard.
... Spain is one of nearly three dozen countries that is a signatory to the Council of Europe's cybercrime treaty, but  Spanish legislators have not yet ratified the treaty by passing anti-cybercrime laws that would bring its judicial system in line with the treaty's goals.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31379552</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>shentino</author>
	<datestamp>1267869240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People doing life without parole might not fear anything but the needle almost by definition have nothing to lose by misbehaving in prison.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People doing life without parole might not fear anything but the needle almost by definition have nothing to lose by misbehaving in prison .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People doing life without parole might not fear anything but the needle almost by definition have nothing to lose by misbehaving in prison.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372420</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372974</id>
	<title>Not getting it, are we?</title>
	<author>cdrguru</author>
	<datestamp>1267814280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is that most of the world has a very simple disconnect between "stuff on computers" and "stuff that affects them".  These folks did nothing to anyone that isn't using a computer.  Therefore, for most of the population of the world there was zero impact.  Nothing.  No difference.</p><p>Now, for a very small minority of people (a few millions out of 6 billion) these people caused trouble.  In no way does this justify in the minds of the rest of the population of the world that there should be any laws against what they did.</p><p>For example, if you go outside your house and step on some ants I am sure the ants being stepped on would like there to be a law against stepping on ants.  The rest of the ant population wasn't affected and neither was the rest of the human population.  So there are no laws against stepping on ants, even if to the ants being stepped on it is a huge life-ending tragedy.</p><p>So for these guys they affected some computer users in a mysterious place outside of the real world.  Good luck with convincing anyone that this is all that important.</p><p>In the US you don't get any law enforcement attention until you cause provable damages in excess of $25,000.  And if you participate in the "crime" by giving away your password through some trojan program the other person isn't going to be taking all the punishment for stealing from you.</p><p>Face it, you live in a different world than most people.  They don't understand your world and you don't understand why yours isn't important to them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is that most of the world has a very simple disconnect between " stuff on computers " and " stuff that affects them " .
These folks did nothing to anyone that is n't using a computer .
Therefore , for most of the population of the world there was zero impact .
Nothing. No difference.Now , for a very small minority of people ( a few millions out of 6 billion ) these people caused trouble .
In no way does this justify in the minds of the rest of the population of the world that there should be any laws against what they did.For example , if you go outside your house and step on some ants I am sure the ants being stepped on would like there to be a law against stepping on ants .
The rest of the ant population was n't affected and neither was the rest of the human population .
So there are no laws against stepping on ants , even if to the ants being stepped on it is a huge life-ending tragedy.So for these guys they affected some computer users in a mysterious place outside of the real world .
Good luck with convincing anyone that this is all that important.In the US you do n't get any law enforcement attention until you cause provable damages in excess of $ 25,000 .
And if you participate in the " crime " by giving away your password through some trojan program the other person is n't going to be taking all the punishment for stealing from you.Face it , you live in a different world than most people .
They do n't understand your world and you do n't understand why yours is n't important to them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is that most of the world has a very simple disconnect between "stuff on computers" and "stuff that affects them".
These folks did nothing to anyone that isn't using a computer.
Therefore, for most of the population of the world there was zero impact.
Nothing.  No difference.Now, for a very small minority of people (a few millions out of 6 billion) these people caused trouble.
In no way does this justify in the minds of the rest of the population of the world that there should be any laws against what they did.For example, if you go outside your house and step on some ants I am sure the ants being stepped on would like there to be a law against stepping on ants.
The rest of the ant population wasn't affected and neither was the rest of the human population.
So there are no laws against stepping on ants, even if to the ants being stepped on it is a huge life-ending tragedy.So for these guys they affected some computer users in a mysterious place outside of the real world.
Good luck with convincing anyone that this is all that important.In the US you don't get any law enforcement attention until you cause provable damages in excess of $25,000.
And if you participate in the "crime" by giving away your password through some trojan program the other person isn't going to be taking all the punishment for stealing from you.Face it, you live in a different world than most people.
They don't understand your world and you don't understand why yours isn't important to them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31375382</id>
	<title>Re:Not getting it, are we?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267782420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Now, for a very small minority of people (a few millions out of 6 billion) these people caused trouble."</p><p>That's a nice way of putting it! I mean, a murder only affects a tiny, infinitesimally small number of people. If a murder affected only a few million lives, I'm not sure people would say "hey, Hitler's actions only affected a small minority of people".</p><p>As to cost, each system that is infected by these guys needs to be rebuilt. New OS install, data restored or recreated. That's not a trivial cost. There is easily 10s to 100s of millions in damages in US alone.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Now , for a very small minority of people ( a few millions out of 6 billion ) these people caused trouble .
" That 's a nice way of putting it !
I mean , a murder only affects a tiny , infinitesimally small number of people .
If a murder affected only a few million lives , I 'm not sure people would say " hey , Hitler 's actions only affected a small minority of people " .As to cost , each system that is infected by these guys needs to be rebuilt .
New OS install , data restored or recreated .
That 's not a trivial cost .
There is easily 10s to 100s of millions in damages in US alone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Now, for a very small minority of people (a few millions out of 6 billion) these people caused trouble.
"That's a nice way of putting it!
I mean, a murder only affects a tiny, infinitesimally small number of people.
If a murder affected only a few million lives, I'm not sure people would say "hey, Hitler's actions only affected a small minority of people".As to cost, each system that is infected by these guys needs to be rebuilt.
New OS install, data restored or recreated.
That's not a trivial cost.
There is easily 10s to 100s of millions in damages in US alone.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372974</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371910</id>
	<title>And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent crime</title>
	<author>cbreaker</author>
	<datestamp>1267808940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes, these people should be punished.   But I agree with Spain's prison/court system when they say that prison is for violent crime.<br><br>There's other ways to punish people and have them be productive to society, instead of rotting in prison.   Sure, there may be special cases, but for the most part if you're not a physical danger to people then there's no need to keep you separated from the population.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , these people should be punished .
But I agree with Spain 's prison/court system when they say that prison is for violent crime.There 's other ways to punish people and have them be productive to society , instead of rotting in prison .
Sure , there may be special cases , but for the most part if you 're not a physical danger to people then there 's no need to keep you separated from the population .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, these people should be punished.
But I agree with Spain's prison/court system when they say that prison is for violent crime.There's other ways to punish people and have them be productive to society, instead of rotting in prison.
Sure, there may be special cases, but for the most part if you're not a physical danger to people then there's no need to keep you separated from the population.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371888</id>
	<title>Is this why they based themselves in Spain?</title>
	<author>Green Light</author>
	<datestamp>1267808820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Are the alleged criminals from Spain, or did they move themselves there, knowing the legal situation?</p><p>No, I did not RTFA!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Are the alleged criminals from Spain , or did they move themselves there , knowing the legal situation ? No , I did not RTFA !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are the alleged criminals from Spain, or did they move themselves there, knowing the legal situation?No, I did not RTFA!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372358</id>
	<title>Re:There SHOULD be existing laws that cover this</title>
	<author>Alinabi</author>
	<datestamp>1267811100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic" title="wikipedia.org">Logic</a> [wikipedia.org]. Read it. Live it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Logic [ wikipedia.org ] .
Read it .
Live it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Logic [wikipedia.org].
Read it.
Live it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372128</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372320</id>
	<title>CALLING ALL SPAMMERS! CALLING ALL CRACKERS!</title>
	<author>Bananatree3</author>
	<datestamp>1267810860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><b>ATTENTION ALL CYBER SCUM</b>
<br> <br>
Are YOU being persecuted in your own home country? Do you face large fines and <b>jail time</b> just cause you're trying to make a living at cyber crime?
<br> <br>
Well, we have just the solution for you! <b> <i>Spain is your cyber crime haven!</i></b></htmltext>
<tokenext>ATTENTION ALL CYBER SCUM Are YOU being persecuted in your own home country ?
Do you face large fines and jail time just cause you 're trying to make a living at cyber crime ?
Well , we have just the solution for you !
Spain is your cyber crime haven !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>ATTENTION ALL CYBER SCUM
 
Are YOU being persecuted in your own home country?
Do you face large fines and jail time just cause you're trying to make a living at cyber crime?
Well, we have just the solution for you!
Spain is your cyber crime haven!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31373452</id>
	<title>Re:Extradition</title>
	<author>citizenr</author>
	<datestamp>1267816440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Unless all 12 million pcs were in Spain, they should qualify for extradition.  Most likely another EU country, but also the US</p></div><p>Sure, we will sent you then as soon as you send us those CIA kidnappers that ran away from Italy under US protection.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless all 12 million pcs were in Spain , they should qualify for extradition .
Most likely another EU country , but also the USSure , we will sent you then as soon as you send us those CIA kidnappers that ran away from Italy under US protection .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless all 12 million pcs were in Spain, they should qualify for extradition.
Most likely another EU country, but also the USSure, we will sent you then as soon as you send us those CIA kidnappers that ran away from Italy under US protection.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372176</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372810</id>
	<title>Prison for cyber scum</title>
	<author>karlzt</author>
	<datestamp>1267813440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>There should be a separated prison for malware authors.


If you throw them in jail where violent people are then they will get tortured by other prisoners and I don't think they deserve that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There should be a separated prison for malware authors .
If you throw them in jail where violent people are then they will get tortured by other prisoners and I do n't think they deserve that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There should be a separated prison for malware authors.
If you throw them in jail where violent people are then they will get tortured by other prisoners and I don't think they deserve that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31374904</id>
	<title>Re:Serious crime?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267780020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm not saying this behavior is good or acceptable. Nor am I saying they shouldn't go to jail, but it might not be as "damaging" as you're making it out to be in a purely economic standpoint. To be fair, they're also perpetuating / creating a lot of employment.<br>
<br>
Think of all the sysadmins who will be able to point out that either (1) they need more resources to prevent these things or (2) look how great a job they are doing since none of their own systems were infected. In either case, money is going to be spent and vendors / employees will be the beneficiary.<br>
<br>
What about all the credit companies that employ people to do nothing but handle fraud and identity theft. <br>
<br>
Then there are the credit protection companies meant to handle the fallout of these types of issues and keep the data from being used even though it has been attained. <br>
<br>
Add to that all of the government agents dedicated specifically to this task and those related. You don't have to like them; just accept that they do exist and their livelihood depends on these types of folks acting out.<br>
<br>
There is a whole economy (industry) based entirely on spammers and data thieves. <br>
<br>
Again, I'm not saying this behavior is good or acceptable. Nor am I saying they shouldn't go to jail. I am saying ONLY that it might not be as "damaging" as you're making it out to be in a purely economic standpoint.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not saying this behavior is good or acceptable .
Nor am I saying they should n't go to jail , but it might not be as " damaging " as you 're making it out to be in a purely economic standpoint .
To be fair , they 're also perpetuating / creating a lot of employment .
Think of all the sysadmins who will be able to point out that either ( 1 ) they need more resources to prevent these things or ( 2 ) look how great a job they are doing since none of their own systems were infected .
In either case , money is going to be spent and vendors / employees will be the beneficiary .
What about all the credit companies that employ people to do nothing but handle fraud and identity theft .
Then there are the credit protection companies meant to handle the fallout of these types of issues and keep the data from being used even though it has been attained .
Add to that all of the government agents dedicated specifically to this task and those related .
You do n't have to like them ; just accept that they do exist and their livelihood depends on these types of folks acting out .
There is a whole economy ( industry ) based entirely on spammers and data thieves .
Again , I 'm not saying this behavior is good or acceptable .
Nor am I saying they should n't go to jail .
I am saying ONLY that it might not be as " damaging " as you 're making it out to be in a purely economic standpoint .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not saying this behavior is good or acceptable.
Nor am I saying they shouldn't go to jail, but it might not be as "damaging" as you're making it out to be in a purely economic standpoint.
To be fair, they're also perpetuating / creating a lot of employment.
Think of all the sysadmins who will be able to point out that either (1) they need more resources to prevent these things or (2) look how great a job they are doing since none of their own systems were infected.
In either case, money is going to be spent and vendors / employees will be the beneficiary.
What about all the credit companies that employ people to do nothing but handle fraud and identity theft.
Then there are the credit protection companies meant to handle the fallout of these types of issues and keep the data from being used even though it has been attained.
Add to that all of the government agents dedicated specifically to this task and those related.
You don't have to like them; just accept that they do exist and their livelihood depends on these types of folks acting out.
There is a whole economy (industry) based entirely on spammers and data thieves.
Again, I'm not saying this behavior is good or acceptable.
Nor am I saying they shouldn't go to jail.
I am saying ONLY that it might not be as "damaging" as you're making it out to be in a purely economic standpoint.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371964</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372000</id>
	<title>Marisa?!</title>
	<author>e2d2</author>
	<datestamp>1267809420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Every time I see this I think Marisa Bot. Which is totally possible because she was a complete bitch.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Every time I see this I think Marisa Bot .
Which is totally possible because she was a complete bitch .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Every time I see this I think Marisa Bot.
Which is totally possible because she was a complete bitch.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31373004</id>
	<title>Not a menace to society?</title>
	<author>KarlIsNotMyName</author>
	<datestamp>1267814400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't see why these people don't deserve being locked up. Spammers are responsible for severely damaging the usefulness of email, as well as requiring millions of hours of trying to clean up after them, time that could be used for much more productive tasks. And there's still the huge waste of bandwidth from spam. Spammers from where I'm looking are among the scum of the Internet, along with e.g. the makers of malware and those stealing your credit card numbers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't see why these people do n't deserve being locked up .
Spammers are responsible for severely damaging the usefulness of email , as well as requiring millions of hours of trying to clean up after them , time that could be used for much more productive tasks .
And there 's still the huge waste of bandwidth from spam .
Spammers from where I 'm looking are among the scum of the Internet , along with e.g .
the makers of malware and those stealing your credit card numbers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't see why these people don't deserve being locked up.
Spammers are responsible for severely damaging the usefulness of email, as well as requiring millions of hours of trying to clean up after them, time that could be used for much more productive tasks.
And there's still the huge waste of bandwidth from spam.
Spammers from where I'm looking are among the scum of the Internet, along with e.g.
the makers of malware and those stealing your credit card numbers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31375962</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267785540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Forcing someone to work is slavery. And we don't approve of that sort of thing in civilised places.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Forcing someone to work is slavery .
And we do n't approve of that sort of thing in civilised places .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Forcing someone to work is slavery.
And we don't approve of that sort of thing in civilised places.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372352</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371932</id>
	<title>Beats the RIAA lawsuits</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267809060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not going to jail over cybercrime isn't ideal, but I'd take this any day over people being fined millions for downloading a few songs off the Internet. Ridiculous penalties for trivial acts are a lot worse than a few cybercrooks being let go with some large fines instead of jail time.</p><p>(Note: downloading music and videos via p2p is legal in Spain)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not going to jail over cybercrime is n't ideal , but I 'd take this any day over people being fined millions for downloading a few songs off the Internet .
Ridiculous penalties for trivial acts are a lot worse than a few cybercrooks being let go with some large fines instead of jail time .
( Note : downloading music and videos via p2p is legal in Spain )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not going to jail over cybercrime isn't ideal, but I'd take this any day over people being fined millions for downloading a few songs off the Internet.
Ridiculous penalties for trivial acts are a lot worse than a few cybercrooks being let go with some large fines instead of jail time.
(Note: downloading music and videos via p2p is legal in Spain)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372276</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267810620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>And you're posting as an anonymous coward.   So what's that make you?<br><br>It's been proven - OVER AND OVER AND OVER - that prison is NOT a deterrant.   It's not.   "Period."<br><br>Because what does every single criminal think when they perform their crimes?   "I won't get caught."<br><br>If prison and death penalties was an effective deterrant - why are there SO MANY PEOPLE in our prisons, and SO MANY PEOPLE getting murdered every year?<br><br>You actually think the criminal justice system has been "pussified"?   I guess you haven't gotten in trouble for anything, like, ever.   Because they hand out sentences like they were peices of candy in a doctor's office.<br><br>You, sir, are the moron - get your head our of your ass and use your god given brain for once.</htmltext>
<tokenext>And you 're posting as an anonymous coward .
So what 's that make you ? It 's been proven - OVER AND OVER AND OVER - that prison is NOT a deterrant .
It 's not .
" Period. " Because what does every single criminal think when they perform their crimes ?
" I wo n't get caught .
" If prison and death penalties was an effective deterrant - why are there SO MANY PEOPLE in our prisons , and SO MANY PEOPLE getting murdered every year ? You actually think the criminal justice system has been " pussified " ?
I guess you have n't gotten in trouble for anything , like , ever .
Because they hand out sentences like they were peices of candy in a doctor 's office.You , sir , are the moron - get your head our of your ass and use your god given brain for once .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And you're posting as an anonymous coward.
So what's that make you?It's been proven - OVER AND OVER AND OVER - that prison is NOT a deterrant.
It's not.
"Period."Because what does every single criminal think when they perform their crimes?
"I won't get caught.
"If prison and death penalties was an effective deterrant - why are there SO MANY PEOPLE in our prisons, and SO MANY PEOPLE getting murdered every year?You actually think the criminal justice system has been "pussified"?
I guess you haven't gotten in trouble for anything, like, ever.
Because they hand out sentences like they were peices of candy in a doctor's office.You, sir, are the moron - get your head our of your ass and use your god given brain for once.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372164</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372366</id>
	<title>Re:There SHOULD be existing laws that cover this</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267811160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am not a comedian, but my friend is. I sometimes ask him questions about humour. This gives me a better understanding of how humour really works, and I say that's some of the funniest first few words you could possibly dream up in an otherwise wanting-to-be sensible post<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am not a comedian , but my friend is .
I sometimes ask him questions about humour .
This gives me a better understanding of how humour really works , and I say that 's some of the funniest first few words you could possibly dream up in an otherwise wanting-to-be sensible post : - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am not a comedian, but my friend is.
I sometimes ask him questions about humour.
This gives me a better understanding of how humour really works, and I say that's some of the funniest first few words you could possibly dream up in an otherwise wanting-to-be sensible post :-)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372128</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31375046</id>
	<title>Re:Extradition</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267780740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I imagine extradition to the US would cause more of a fuss than its worth. IMO no european should be extradited to the US unless there is clear cut evidence of violent crime, and even then I'd prefer to see justice served on this side of the pond.</p><p>I get the impression that the legal system in the US is more to do with money/corruption than any kind of justice. That's your own business as long as no euros are held up to it, but extradition treaties and the sharing of information with the US need to be reigned in and reworked.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I imagine extradition to the US would cause more of a fuss than its worth .
IMO no european should be extradited to the US unless there is clear cut evidence of violent crime , and even then I 'd prefer to see justice served on this side of the pond.I get the impression that the legal system in the US is more to do with money/corruption than any kind of justice .
That 's your own business as long as no euros are held up to it , but extradition treaties and the sharing of information with the US need to be reigned in and reworked .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I imagine extradition to the US would cause more of a fuss than its worth.
IMO no european should be extradited to the US unless there is clear cut evidence of violent crime, and even then I'd prefer to see justice served on this side of the pond.I get the impression that the legal system in the US is more to do with money/corruption than any kind of justice.
That's your own business as long as no euros are held up to it, but extradition treaties and the sharing of information with the US need to be reigned in and reworked.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372176</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371876</id>
	<title>So...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267808760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Fine them 50 million, release them, wait for them to knock over a bank, then throw them in jail.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fine them 50 million , release them , wait for them to knock over a bank , then throw them in jail .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fine them 50 million, release them, wait for them to knock over a bank, then throw them in jail.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31373712</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>FlyingGuy</author>
	<datestamp>1267817520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nope no prison for them, just take them out back of the courthouse and put a bullet in each ones head.  Simple, done and over with.</p><p>Those people disrupt and financially ruin thousands of peoples lives, fuck em.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nope no prison for them , just take them out back of the courthouse and put a bullet in each ones head .
Simple , done and over with.Those people disrupt and financially ruin thousands of peoples lives , fuck em .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nope no prison for them, just take them out back of the courthouse and put a bullet in each ones head.
Simple, done and over with.Those people disrupt and financially ruin thousands of peoples lives, fuck em.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371910</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31373508</id>
	<title>Re:Extradition</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267816680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thanks God our laws don't allow to extradite our own citizens. In Spain the government still protects the people (mostly) over the property and (even more important) from the law of third countries.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thanks God our laws do n't allow to extradite our own citizens .
In Spain the government still protects the people ( mostly ) over the property and ( even more important ) from the law of third countries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thanks God our laws don't allow to extradite our own citizens.
In Spain the government still protects the people (mostly) over the property and (even more important) from the law of third countries.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372176</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371988</id>
	<title>Gotta admit</title>
	<author>zapakh</author>
	<datestamp>1267809300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I was expecting the Spanish Inquisition.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I was expecting the Spanish Inquisition .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was expecting the Spanish Inquisition.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371918</id>
	<title>Seems...</title>
	<author>sycodon</author>
	<datestamp>1267809000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...some extrajudicial punishment is in order.</p><p>Maybe being tossed nakkid into the ring with several pissed off bulls.</p><p>Force them to spend a month solid working closely (close quarters) with Nancy Pelosi.</p><p>Fix it up so that in order to eat and drink, they have to make that browser window that keeps asking, "Are sure you want to leave?", go away by only clicking in the browser window.</p><p>Five thousand hours of Steve Ballmer doing the monkey dance.</p><p>Suggestions welcome.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...some extrajudicial punishment is in order.Maybe being tossed nakkid into the ring with several pissed off bulls.Force them to spend a month solid working closely ( close quarters ) with Nancy Pelosi.Fix it up so that in order to eat and drink , they have to make that browser window that keeps asking , " Are sure you want to leave ?
" , go away by only clicking in the browser window.Five thousand hours of Steve Ballmer doing the monkey dance.Suggestions welcome .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...some extrajudicial punishment is in order.Maybe being tossed nakkid into the ring with several pissed off bulls.Force them to spend a month solid working closely (close quarters) with Nancy Pelosi.Fix it up so that in order to eat and drink, they have to make that browser window that keeps asking, "Are sure you want to leave?
", go away by only clicking in the browser window.Five thousand hours of Steve Ballmer doing the monkey dance.Suggestions welcome.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371964</id>
	<title>Serious crime?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267809240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>'It is almost impossible to be sent to prison for these kinds of crimes in Spain, where prison is mainly for serious crime cases,'</i>
<br> <br>
Do they grasp the economic impact of these botnets?  There may not be any physical violence, but the spam hassels, system cleanup, and DDOS attacks create hundreads of millions of dollars in economic damages.  Sure, that's distributed over millions of people, but this sort of macroscopic vandalism is, in fact, a major crime.  Throw the book at 'em.</htmltext>
<tokenext>'It is almost impossible to be sent to prison for these kinds of crimes in Spain , where prison is mainly for serious crime cases, ' Do they grasp the economic impact of these botnets ?
There may not be any physical violence , but the spam hassels , system cleanup , and DDOS attacks create hundreads of millions of dollars in economic damages .
Sure , that 's distributed over millions of people , but this sort of macroscopic vandalism is , in fact , a major crime .
Throw the book at 'em .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>'It is almost impossible to be sent to prison for these kinds of crimes in Spain, where prison is mainly for serious crime cases,'
 
Do they grasp the economic impact of these botnets?
There may not be any physical violence, but the spam hassels, system cleanup, and DDOS attacks create hundreads of millions of dollars in economic damages.
Sure, that's distributed over millions of people, but this sort of macroscopic vandalism is, in fact, a major crime.
Throw the book at 'em.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372098</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>causality</author>
	<datestamp>1267809840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Yes, these people should be punished.   But I agree with Spain's prison/court system when they say that prison is for violent crime.

There's other ways to punish people and have them be productive to society, instead of rotting in prison.   Sure, there may be special cases, but for the most part if you're not a physical danger to people then there's no need to keep you separated from the population.</p></div><p>Any effort spent punishing them would be better put towards hardening the targets.  If you're interested in the prevention of similar events in the future, that is.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , these people should be punished .
But I agree with Spain 's prison/court system when they say that prison is for violent crime .
There 's other ways to punish people and have them be productive to society , instead of rotting in prison .
Sure , there may be special cases , but for the most part if you 're not a physical danger to people then there 's no need to keep you separated from the population.Any effort spent punishing them would be better put towards hardening the targets .
If you 're interested in the prevention of similar events in the future , that is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, these people should be punished.
But I agree with Spain's prison/court system when they say that prison is for violent crime.
There's other ways to punish people and have them be productive to society, instead of rotting in prison.
Sure, there may be special cases, but for the most part if you're not a physical danger to people then there's no need to keep you separated from the population.Any effort spent punishing them would be better put towards hardening the targets.
If you're interested in the prevention of similar events in the future, that is.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371910</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31379112</id>
	<title>Honestly</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267816260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Something<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.ers don't understand is that the majority of the prison population has antisocial personality disorder. The same people that are the best soldiers, the best spies, the best businessmen, and the best politicians-- are the career criminals. Sending them to prison does nothing except ruin any possibility of a legitimate, law abiding future. Sending them to prison gives them contacts and makes them more advanced criminals. Someone suggested solitary confinement. Are you serious? Do you know what that does to someone? When they get out you'll have an extremely dangerous individual. If I sell a bag of weed, I'll go to prison along side of gang members, coke and meth dealers, etc. I'll likely come out as one of them. Do you understand the concept of a cycle? Historically, tougher punishments lead to a better class of criminals. Russian gulags bred the Russian Mafia; many American street gangs have their origins in prisons. Also, many prisons are privatized in America and this disturbing trend says one thing: People are profiting off of others going to prison.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Something /.ers do n't understand is that the majority of the prison population has antisocial personality disorder .
The same people that are the best soldiers , the best spies , the best businessmen , and the best politicians-- are the career criminals .
Sending them to prison does nothing except ruin any possibility of a legitimate , law abiding future .
Sending them to prison gives them contacts and makes them more advanced criminals .
Someone suggested solitary confinement .
Are you serious ?
Do you know what that does to someone ?
When they get out you 'll have an extremely dangerous individual .
If I sell a bag of weed , I 'll go to prison along side of gang members , coke and meth dealers , etc .
I 'll likely come out as one of them .
Do you understand the concept of a cycle ?
Historically , tougher punishments lead to a better class of criminals .
Russian gulags bred the Russian Mafia ; many American street gangs have their origins in prisons .
Also , many prisons are privatized in America and this disturbing trend says one thing : People are profiting off of others going to prison .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Something /.ers don't understand is that the majority of the prison population has antisocial personality disorder.
The same people that are the best soldiers, the best spies, the best businessmen, and the best politicians-- are the career criminals.
Sending them to prison does nothing except ruin any possibility of a legitimate, law abiding future.
Sending them to prison gives them contacts and makes them more advanced criminals.
Someone suggested solitary confinement.
Are you serious?
Do you know what that does to someone?
When they get out you'll have an extremely dangerous individual.
If I sell a bag of weed, I'll go to prison along side of gang members, coke and meth dealers, etc.
I'll likely come out as one of them.
Do you understand the concept of a cycle?
Historically, tougher punishments lead to a better class of criminals.
Russian gulags bred the Russian Mafia; many American street gangs have their origins in prisons.
Also, many prisons are privatized in America and this disturbing trend says one thing: People are profiting off of others going to prison.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31375156</id>
	<title>Extradite them</title>
	<author>Junior Samples</author>
	<datestamp>1267781280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Extradite them to the US and put them on trial here for crimes they've committed on US based PC's.</p><p>After they've served their time here, send them to the next country where they've committed crime for a new trial there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Extradite them to the US and put them on trial here for crimes they 've committed on US based PC 's.After they 've served their time here , send them to the next country where they 've committed crime for a new trial there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Extradite them to the US and put them on trial here for crimes they've committed on US based PC's.After they've served their time here, send them to the next country where they've committed crime for a new trial there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372170</id>
	<title>fuc4 a MARE</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267810140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><A HREF="http://goat.cx/" title="goat.cx" rel="nofollow">one or the other Many of us are balance6 is struck,</a> [goat.cx]</htmltext>
<tokenext>one or the other Many of us are balance6 is struck , [ goat.cx ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>one or the other Many of us are balance6 is struck, [goat.cx]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31373400</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267816200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Because get rich quick is not a sociopathic behavior, no matter how you see it, so should be dealt with differently. Following your line of reasoning, every crime no matter how small or large should be treated the same, throw them in jail.</p></div><p>Hijacking somebody's computer, and using its resources for yourself, however IS sociopathic: You are taking something which does not belong to you, and knowing it is wrong you do it anyway. To hell with the spam, I'm talking purely about the botnet here. There are plenty of 'legal' ways to spam, there are no legal (or moral, or ethical) ways of creating a botnet of zombies.

As somebody else in this thread said, "Prison is meant to protect society from the people being imprisoned as well as serving as punishment and deterrent. If there is no need to protect society (or conversely, protect them from revenge/vigilante attacks) then seeking other forms of punishment that are less costly seems to me to be a good idea.", And I agree with that completely. However, what constitutes a 'need to protect society', is what we're differing on.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Because get rich quick is not a sociopathic behavior , no matter how you see it , so should be dealt with differently .
Following your line of reasoning , every crime no matter how small or large should be treated the same , throw them in jail.Hijacking somebody 's computer , and using its resources for yourself , however IS sociopathic : You are taking something which does not belong to you , and knowing it is wrong you do it anyway .
To hell with the spam , I 'm talking purely about the botnet here .
There are plenty of 'legal ' ways to spam , there are no legal ( or moral , or ethical ) ways of creating a botnet of zombies .
As somebody else in this thread said , " Prison is meant to protect society from the people being imprisoned as well as serving as punishment and deterrent .
If there is no need to protect society ( or conversely , protect them from revenge/vigilante attacks ) then seeking other forms of punishment that are less costly seems to me to be a good idea .
" , And I agree with that completely .
However , what constitutes a 'need to protect society ' , is what we 're differing on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because get rich quick is not a sociopathic behavior, no matter how you see it, so should be dealt with differently.
Following your line of reasoning, every crime no matter how small or large should be treated the same, throw them in jail.Hijacking somebody's computer, and using its resources for yourself, however IS sociopathic: You are taking something which does not belong to you, and knowing it is wrong you do it anyway.
To hell with the spam, I'm talking purely about the botnet here.
There are plenty of 'legal' ways to spam, there are no legal (or moral, or ethical) ways of creating a botnet of zombies.
As somebody else in this thread said, "Prison is meant to protect society from the people being imprisoned as well as serving as punishment and deterrent.
If there is no need to protect society (or conversely, protect them from revenge/vigilante attacks) then seeking other forms of punishment that are less costly seems to me to be a good idea.
", And I agree with that completely.
However, what constitutes a 'need to protect society', is what we're differing on.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372308</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31375618</id>
	<title>Cool...</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1267783800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Cool...now that all the hackers know where to live if they need to operate a botnet,<br>I welcome our new botnet overlords....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Cool...now that all the hackers know where to live if they need to operate a botnet,I welcome our new botnet overlords... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cool...now that all the hackers know where to live if they need to operate a botnet,I welcome our new botnet overlords....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31373268</id>
	<title>turn them over to the victims</title>
	<author>e3m4n</author>
	<datestamp>1267815540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Thats fine that they dont get jail time, as long as they are turned over to the victims of their crime to do as they see fit. I say tie the bastards to a tree in the wilderness and say 'I hope to hell you have a lot of good friends looking for you, because you can only live 3 days without water'. Then just leave them there to contemplate life, death, the afterlife and/or make peace with their god. It will be a very long 3 - 5 days.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Thats fine that they dont get jail time , as long as they are turned over to the victims of their crime to do as they see fit .
I say tie the bastards to a tree in the wilderness and say 'I hope to hell you have a lot of good friends looking for you , because you can only live 3 days without water' .
Then just leave them there to contemplate life , death , the afterlife and/or make peace with their god .
It will be a very long 3 - 5 days .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thats fine that they dont get jail time, as long as they are turned over to the victims of their crime to do as they see fit.
I say tie the bastards to a tree in the wilderness and say 'I hope to hell you have a lot of good friends looking for you, because you can only live 3 days without water'.
Then just leave them there to contemplate life, death, the afterlife and/or make peace with their god.
It will be a very long 3 - 5 days.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372308</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>0racle</author>
	<datestamp>1267810800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The summary said Spain reserved prison for 'serious crime cases.' Depending on how Spain defines 'serious crime' your examples could count and still most spammers wouldn't be eligible for jail, which is still a better situation then in the US. There are other ways to punish people, jail doesn't have to be the only one.<blockquote><div><p>It's showing the same sociopathic behavior as my other examples, so why should it be special?</p></div></blockquote><p>Because get rich quick is not a sociopathic behavior, no matter how you see it, so should be dealt with differently. Following your line of reasoning, every crime no matter how small or large should be treated the same, throw them in jail.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The summary said Spain reserved prison for 'serious crime cases .
' Depending on how Spain defines 'serious crime ' your examples could count and still most spammers would n't be eligible for jail , which is still a better situation then in the US .
There are other ways to punish people , jail does n't have to be the only one.It 's showing the same sociopathic behavior as my other examples , so why should it be special ? Because get rich quick is not a sociopathic behavior , no matter how you see it , so should be dealt with differently .
Following your line of reasoning , every crime no matter how small or large should be treated the same , throw them in jail .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The summary said Spain reserved prison for 'serious crime cases.
' Depending on how Spain defines 'serious crime' your examples could count and still most spammers wouldn't be eligible for jail, which is still a better situation then in the US.
There are other ways to punish people, jail doesn't have to be the only one.It's showing the same sociopathic behavior as my other examples, so why should it be special?Because get rich quick is not a sociopathic behavior, no matter how you see it, so should be dealt with differently.
Following your line of reasoning, every crime no matter how small or large should be treated the same, throw them in jail.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372044</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372030</id>
	<title>Must they be charged with "cybercrime"?</title>
	<author>John Hasler</author>
	<datestamp>1267809540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Aren't things such as fraud serious crimes in Spain?  Or could they be extradited?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Are n't things such as fraud serious crimes in Spain ?
Or could they be extradited ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Aren't things such as fraud serious crimes in Spain?
Or could they be extradited?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372044</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267809600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>And what of Con men, who will happily pay the fine and go right back out and swindle more people?<br>
<br>
Or people whom, through callous disregard, 15,000 people in Bhopal die from a venting of tonnes of poisonous gas?<br>
<br>
Or somebody who steals cars without the threat of violence?<br>
<br>
None of those are 'violent' crime. And yet I feel that prison is a reasonable punishment for all of them. What makes a botnet different? It's showing the same sociopathic behavior as my other examples, so why should it be special?</htmltext>
<tokenext>And what of Con men , who will happily pay the fine and go right back out and swindle more people ?
Or people whom , through callous disregard , 15,000 people in Bhopal die from a venting of tonnes of poisonous gas ?
Or somebody who steals cars without the threat of violence ?
None of those are 'violent ' crime .
And yet I feel that prison is a reasonable punishment for all of them .
What makes a botnet different ?
It 's showing the same sociopathic behavior as my other examples , so why should it be special ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And what of Con men, who will happily pay the fine and go right back out and swindle more people?
Or people whom, through callous disregard, 15,000 people in Bhopal die from a venting of tonnes of poisonous gas?
Or somebody who steals cars without the threat of violence?
None of those are 'violent' crime.
And yet I feel that prison is a reasonable punishment for all of them.
What makes a botnet different?
It's showing the same sociopathic behavior as my other examples, so why should it be special?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371910</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372502</id>
	<title>what do you propose?</title>
	<author>grapeape</author>
	<datestamp>1267811880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While I'd agree that non-violent crime needs some better for of punishment, the majority seems to think that having someone sit in jail for carrying a bag of pot is acceptable, so should someone that scammed people out of money, clogged inboxes and essentially broke into millions of computers be an even more acceptable jail resident?  As long as no one was hurt should people found guilty of breaking and entering, grand theft, larceny and forgery be set free as well?  Frankly I think that cybercrimes should be punishable at the same level of their real world equivalent, though perhaps the punishments on both sides should be reevaluated if there is really is a better alternative to jail.</p><p>I'm amazed at how often the more savy people on the internet tend to dismiss this kind of thing and blame the victim, in the real world you dont see people going "well he shouldnt have had such a nice car" or "you shouldnt have kept money in your house", or "well its your fault you didnt have better locks" yet online it seems there always seems to be this unexplicable symapthy for the criminal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While I 'd agree that non-violent crime needs some better for of punishment , the majority seems to think that having someone sit in jail for carrying a bag of pot is acceptable , so should someone that scammed people out of money , clogged inboxes and essentially broke into millions of computers be an even more acceptable jail resident ?
As long as no one was hurt should people found guilty of breaking and entering , grand theft , larceny and forgery be set free as well ?
Frankly I think that cybercrimes should be punishable at the same level of their real world equivalent , though perhaps the punishments on both sides should be reevaluated if there is really is a better alternative to jail.I 'm amazed at how often the more savy people on the internet tend to dismiss this kind of thing and blame the victim , in the real world you dont see people going " well he shouldnt have had such a nice car " or " you shouldnt have kept money in your house " , or " well its your fault you didnt have better locks " yet online it seems there always seems to be this unexplicable symapthy for the criminal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I'd agree that non-violent crime needs some better for of punishment, the majority seems to think that having someone sit in jail for carrying a bag of pot is acceptable, so should someone that scammed people out of money, clogged inboxes and essentially broke into millions of computers be an even more acceptable jail resident?
As long as no one was hurt should people found guilty of breaking and entering, grand theft, larceny and forgery be set free as well?
Frankly I think that cybercrimes should be punishable at the same level of their real world equivalent, though perhaps the punishments on both sides should be reevaluated if there is really is a better alternative to jail.I'm amazed at how often the more savy people on the internet tend to dismiss this kind of thing and blame the victim, in the real world you dont see people going "well he shouldnt have had such a nice car" or "you shouldnt have kept money in your house", or "well its your fault you didnt have better locks" yet online it seems there always seems to be this unexplicable symapthy for the criminal.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371910</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31373024</id>
	<title>privacy</title>
	<author>Nyall</author>
	<datestamp>1267814520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There aren't privacy laws that they can nail them with?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are n't privacy laws that they can nail them with ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There aren't privacy laws that they can nail them with?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371916</id>
	<title>Enter the lawyers?</title>
	<author>greatgreygreengreasy</author>
	<datestamp>1267809000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If Spain is anywhere near as litigious as the US, I could see them facing a rather large class-action lawsuit from the owners of infected computers.  But IANAL, and certainly not a Spanish lawyer.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If Spain is anywhere near as litigious as the US , I could see them facing a rather large class-action lawsuit from the owners of infected computers .
But IANAL , and certainly not a Spanish lawyer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If Spain is anywhere near as litigious as the US, I could see them facing a rather large class-action lawsuit from the owners of infected computers.
But IANAL, and certainly not a Spanish lawyer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31375118</id>
	<title>Re:what do you propose?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267781100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>While I'd agree that non-violent crime needs some better for of punishment, the majority seems to think that having someone sit in jail for carrying a bag of pot is acceptable, so should someone that scammed people out of money, clogged inboxes and essentially broke into millions of computers be an even more acceptable jail resident?  As long as no one was hurt should people found guilty of breaking and entering, grand theft, larceny and forgery be set free as well?  Frankly I think that cybercrimes should be punishable at the same level of their real world equivalent, though perhaps the punishments on both sides should be reevaluated if there is really is a better alternative to jail.</p><p>I'm amazed at how often the more savy people on the internet tend to dismiss this kind of thing and blame the victim, in the real world you dont see people going "well he shouldnt have had such a nice car" or "you shouldnt have kept money in your house", or "well its your fault you didnt have better locks" yet online it seems there always seems to be this unexplicable symapthy for the criminal.</p></div><p>Fallacious reasoning, and grammatical errors all in one post!</p><p>Who'd-a-thunk it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>While I 'd agree that non-violent crime needs some better for of punishment , the majority seems to think that having someone sit in jail for carrying a bag of pot is acceptable , so should someone that scammed people out of money , clogged inboxes and essentially broke into millions of computers be an even more acceptable jail resident ?
As long as no one was hurt should people found guilty of breaking and entering , grand theft , larceny and forgery be set free as well ?
Frankly I think that cybercrimes should be punishable at the same level of their real world equivalent , though perhaps the punishments on both sides should be reevaluated if there is really is a better alternative to jail.I 'm amazed at how often the more savy people on the internet tend to dismiss this kind of thing and blame the victim , in the real world you dont see people going " well he shouldnt have had such a nice car " or " you shouldnt have kept money in your house " , or " well its your fault you didnt have better locks " yet online it seems there always seems to be this unexplicable symapthy for the criminal.Fallacious reasoning , and grammatical errors all in one post ! Who 'd-a-thunk it : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I'd agree that non-violent crime needs some better for of punishment, the majority seems to think that having someone sit in jail for carrying a bag of pot is acceptable, so should someone that scammed people out of money, clogged inboxes and essentially broke into millions of computers be an even more acceptable jail resident?
As long as no one was hurt should people found guilty of breaking and entering, grand theft, larceny and forgery be set free as well?
Frankly I think that cybercrimes should be punishable at the same level of their real world equivalent, though perhaps the punishments on both sides should be reevaluated if there is really is a better alternative to jail.I'm amazed at how often the more savy people on the internet tend to dismiss this kind of thing and blame the victim, in the real world you dont see people going "well he shouldnt have had such a nice car" or "you shouldnt have kept money in your house", or "well its your fault you didnt have better locks" yet online it seems there always seems to be this unexplicable symapthy for the criminal.Fallacious reasoning, and grammatical errors all in one post!Who'd-a-thunk it :)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372502</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31373096</id>
	<title>Re:Gotta admit</title>
	<author>dclozier</author>
	<datestamp>1267814820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Don't worry - once ACTA is finalized they'll come again.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't worry - once ACTA is finalized they 'll come again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't worry - once ACTA is finalized they'll come again.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372086</id>
	<title>In Soviet Spain, RIAA is afraid of YOU!</title>
	<author>Shompol</author>
	<datestamp>1267809780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Pack your bags, kids, we are moving to Spain!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Pack your bags , kids , we are moving to Spain !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pack your bags, kids, we are moving to Spain!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31376310</id>
	<title>Sure, but . . .</title>
	<author>Cyberllama</author>
	<datestamp>1267787880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unless every single one of those computer's is physically in Spain, couldn't they be extradited? Or does Spanish law make that hard/impossible?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless every single one of those computer 's is physically in Spain , could n't they be extradited ?
Or does Spanish law make that hard/impossible ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless every single one of those computer's is physically in Spain, couldn't they be extradited?
Or does Spanish law make that hard/impossible?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372352</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>Tim C</author>
	<datestamp>1267811040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Prison is meant to protect society from the people being imprisoned as well as serving as punishment and deterrent.</p><p>If there is no need to protect society (or conversely, protect them from revenge/vigilante attacks) then seeking other forms of punishment that are less costly seems to me to be a good idea. While someone is in prison not only are they not contributing to society (if only by paying taxes on the things they buy), but society is paying to house and feed them. Why not keep the non-dangerous criminals in the community, and perhaps force them to work off their crimes?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Prison is meant to protect society from the people being imprisoned as well as serving as punishment and deterrent.If there is no need to protect society ( or conversely , protect them from revenge/vigilante attacks ) then seeking other forms of punishment that are less costly seems to me to be a good idea .
While someone is in prison not only are they not contributing to society ( if only by paying taxes on the things they buy ) , but society is paying to house and feed them .
Why not keep the non-dangerous criminals in the community , and perhaps force them to work off their crimes ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Prison is meant to protect society from the people being imprisoned as well as serving as punishment and deterrent.If there is no need to protect society (or conversely, protect them from revenge/vigilante attacks) then seeking other forms of punishment that are less costly seems to me to be a good idea.
While someone is in prison not only are they not contributing to society (if only by paying taxes on the things they buy), but society is paying to house and feed them.
Why not keep the non-dangerous criminals in the community, and perhaps force them to work off their crimes?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372306</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>siloko</author>
	<datestamp>1267810800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Or people whom, through callous disregard, 15,000 people in Bhopal die from a venting of tonnes of poisonous gas?</p></div><p>AND</p><p><div class="quote"><p>None of those are 'violent' crime.</p></div><p>Only for someone with an extremely narrow view of what constitutes violence. I agree with the GP so long as one has a sensibly broad interpretation of 'violence'</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Or people whom , through callous disregard , 15,000 people in Bhopal die from a venting of tonnes of poisonous gas ? ANDNone of those are 'violent ' crime.Only for someone with an extremely narrow view of what constitutes violence .
I agree with the GP so long as one has a sensibly broad interpretation of 'violence '</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or people whom, through callous disregard, 15,000 people in Bhopal die from a venting of tonnes of poisonous gas?ANDNone of those are 'violent' crime.Only for someone with an extremely narrow view of what constitutes violence.
I agree with the GP so long as one has a sensibly broad interpretation of 'violence'
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372044</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372128</id>
	<title>There SHOULD be existing laws that cover this</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267809960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am not a lawyer.   But my best friend is.  And sometimes I ask him questions about the law, how it is applied, and so on.  This gives me a better understanding of how it <b> really </b> works, whether I agree with that or not.  This should not be a problem that there are no cyber crime specific laws.  There should be existing laws that cover crime and one would hope that Spain's laws aren't so weak that those don't apply.  Really, are we supposed to believe that Spanish authorities are honestly going to say "Sure, we have laws against stealing, but we didn't write those laws to specifically deal with stealing by computer, so you're out of luck"?  That would be like arguing that you are powerless to arrest someone who killed another person by smashing an iPhone against the temple of the other person in a fit of anger because you have no laws that specifically cover killing via smashing with an iPhone.  There are certainly negative aspects of Spain, such as their weak stance on illegal immigration, but I'm finding it hard to believe that some existing law on thievery won't do the job here.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am not a lawyer .
But my best friend is .
And sometimes I ask him questions about the law , how it is applied , and so on .
This gives me a better understanding of how it really works , whether I agree with that or not .
This should not be a problem that there are no cyber crime specific laws .
There should be existing laws that cover crime and one would hope that Spain 's laws are n't so weak that those do n't apply .
Really , are we supposed to believe that Spanish authorities are honestly going to say " Sure , we have laws against stealing , but we did n't write those laws to specifically deal with stealing by computer , so you 're out of luck " ?
That would be like arguing that you are powerless to arrest someone who killed another person by smashing an iPhone against the temple of the other person in a fit of anger because you have no laws that specifically cover killing via smashing with an iPhone .
There are certainly negative aspects of Spain , such as their weak stance on illegal immigration , but I 'm finding it hard to believe that some existing law on thievery wo n't do the job here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am not a lawyer.
But my best friend is.
And sometimes I ask him questions about the law, how it is applied, and so on.
This gives me a better understanding of how it  really  works, whether I agree with that or not.
This should not be a problem that there are no cyber crime specific laws.
There should be existing laws that cover crime and one would hope that Spain's laws aren't so weak that those don't apply.
Really, are we supposed to believe that Spanish authorities are honestly going to say "Sure, we have laws against stealing, but we didn't write those laws to specifically deal with stealing by computer, so you're out of luck"?
That would be like arguing that you are powerless to arrest someone who killed another person by smashing an iPhone against the temple of the other person in a fit of anger because you have no laws that specifically cover killing via smashing with an iPhone.
There are certainly negative aspects of Spain, such as their weak stance on illegal immigration, but I'm finding it hard to believe that some existing law on thievery won't do the job here.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372164</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267810080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are a moron.  The purpose of any system of punishment is to set an example for other people who would commit the same crime.  If you don't send criminals to prison, you get more criminals.  Period.  Nobody gives a shit if they might have to pay a fine or do some community service.  They'll take that risk.  It's because of fucking idiots like you who have pussified our criminal justice system that crime rates continue to increase.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are a moron .
The purpose of any system of punishment is to set an example for other people who would commit the same crime .
If you do n't send criminals to prison , you get more criminals .
Period. Nobody gives a shit if they might have to pay a fine or do some community service .
They 'll take that risk .
It 's because of fucking idiots like you who have pussified our criminal justice system that crime rates continue to increase .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are a moron.
The purpose of any system of punishment is to set an example for other people who would commit the same crime.
If you don't send criminals to prison, you get more criminals.
Period.  Nobody gives a shit if they might have to pay a fine or do some community service.
They'll take that risk.
It's because of fucking idiots like you who have pussified our criminal justice system that crime rates continue to increase.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371910</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372042</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267809600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>they need to be separated from the computer poplulation!</htmltext>
<tokenext>they need to be separated from the computer poplulation !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>they need to be separated from the computer poplulation!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371910</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31373640</id>
	<title>amazingly thrifty</title>
	<author>sabt-pestnu</author>
	<datestamp>1267817280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There's other ways to punish people and have them be productive to society, instead of rotting in prison.</p></div><p>I am amazed at your thrift and foresight.  Instead of rotting in prison, they can be productive to society as fertilizer, rotting outside of prison!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's other ways to punish people and have them be productive to society , instead of rotting in prison.I am amazed at your thrift and foresight .
Instead of rotting in prison , they can be productive to society as fertilizer , rotting outside of prison !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's other ways to punish people and have them be productive to society, instead of rotting in prison.I am amazed at your thrift and foresight.
Instead of rotting in prison, they can be productive to society as fertilizer, rotting outside of prison!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371910</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372594</id>
	<title>Re:Beats the RIAA lawsuits</title>
	<author>BrokenHalo</author>
	<datestamp>1267812420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes, but all we're doing here is redefining what makes a cybercriminal. Thugs using the court system for extorting thousands or millions of dollars from individuals for trivial offences that hurt no-one and deprive no-one of their property are just another facet of a legal system that informs us that crime does indeed pay.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , but all we 're doing here is redefining what makes a cybercriminal .
Thugs using the court system for extorting thousands or millions of dollars from individuals for trivial offences that hurt no-one and deprive no-one of their property are just another facet of a legal system that informs us that crime does indeed pay .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, but all we're doing here is redefining what makes a cybercriminal.
Thugs using the court system for extorting thousands or millions of dollars from individuals for trivial offences that hurt no-one and deprive no-one of their property are just another facet of a legal system that informs us that crime does indeed pay.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371932</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372426</id>
	<title>Re:There SHOULD be existing laws that cover this</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267811520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>During a the civil war and after, lots of people from Spain emigrated to other countries to work and live free. I don't think Spain has such a bad memory as other countries where people tend to forget their origins and ask for stricter immigration laws.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>During a the civil war and after , lots of people from Spain emigrated to other countries to work and live free .
I do n't think Spain has such a bad memory as other countries where people tend to forget their origins and ask for stricter immigration laws .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>During a the civil war and after, lots of people from Spain emigrated to other countries to work and live free.
I don't think Spain has such a bad memory as other countries where people tend to forget their origins and ask for stricter immigration laws.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372128</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31381560</id>
	<title>Re:Not getting it, are we?</title>
	<author>shentino</author>
	<datestamp>1267899300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Also, the ants aren't actually strong enough to do a damned thing about it, since only people laws can restrain people.</p><p>Ants are scum, they have no value to humans, so it is not illegal to torture them or even kill them.  In fact, we PAY people to get rid of them.  It will never be illegal to hurt them, simply because they have no apparent value to humans.  This, btw, is why it usually IS illegal to hurt bigger animals, like cute puppies and cute kittens.</p><p>There are powerful people that get away with squashing little people all the time, and they are for all practical purposes people stepping on ants.  This includes the rich fatcats with huge lobby budgets who are effectively untouchable.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Also , the ants are n't actually strong enough to do a damned thing about it , since only people laws can restrain people.Ants are scum , they have no value to humans , so it is not illegal to torture them or even kill them .
In fact , we PAY people to get rid of them .
It will never be illegal to hurt them , simply because they have no apparent value to humans .
This , btw , is why it usually IS illegal to hurt bigger animals , like cute puppies and cute kittens.There are powerful people that get away with squashing little people all the time , and they are for all practical purposes people stepping on ants .
This includes the rich fatcats with huge lobby budgets who are effectively untouchable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Also, the ants aren't actually strong enough to do a damned thing about it, since only people laws can restrain people.Ants are scum, they have no value to humans, so it is not illegal to torture them or even kill them.
In fact, we PAY people to get rid of them.
It will never be illegal to hurt them, simply because they have no apparent value to humans.
This, btw, is why it usually IS illegal to hurt bigger animals, like cute puppies and cute kittens.There are powerful people that get away with squashing little people all the time, and they are for all practical purposes people stepping on ants.
This includes the rich fatcats with huge lobby budgets who are effectively untouchable.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372974</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31374258</id>
	<title>No jail? That's fine.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267820040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just let us know their names and release them back into the population. All the 20-somethings who spent countless hours cleaning malware from their relative's PCs will make short work of them. Seriously, as I sit there trying every method imaginable to delete gynopdul.dll from the system32 folder I just daydream about what it would be like to shoot these assholes in the groin with a shotgun.</p><p>Heck, I hear Spain is nice this time of year...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just let us know their names and release them back into the population .
All the 20-somethings who spent countless hours cleaning malware from their relative 's PCs will make short work of them .
Seriously , as I sit there trying every method imaginable to delete gynopdul.dll from the system32 folder I just daydream about what it would be like to shoot these assholes in the groin with a shotgun.Heck , I hear Spain is nice this time of year.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just let us know their names and release them back into the population.
All the 20-somethings who spent countless hours cleaning malware from their relative's PCs will make short work of them.
Seriously, as I sit there trying every method imaginable to delete gynopdul.dll from the system32 folder I just daydream about what it would be like to shoot these assholes in the groin with a shotgun.Heck, I hear Spain is nice this time of year...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31376048</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267786200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, because all of the statistics on reform are proof that prison works. </p><p>Quote from "Blow": "I went into prison with a bachelor's degree in weed, and came out with a master's in cocaine."</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , because all of the statistics on reform are proof that prison works .
Quote from " Blow " : " I went into prison with a bachelor 's degree in weed , and came out with a master 's in cocaine .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, because all of the statistics on reform are proof that prison works.
Quote from "Blow": "I went into prison with a bachelor's degree in weed, and came out with a master's in cocaine.
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372454</id>
	<title>Make punishment fit the crime...</title>
	<author>BrokenHalo</author>
	<datestamp>1267811700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Essentially what these spammers have mostly done is cause a lot of people a great deal of inconvenience. If they are guilty of phishing attacks, then that would surely come under the heading of theft or fraud, which <i>would</i> be punishable by jail under Spanish law.<br> <br>Otherwise, jailing the creeps only places another drain on society, when what you really want is to stop them being antisocial, and preferably discourage others from doing the same. So how about this, for a change:<br> <br>Make the guys do something actually useful for a few years. Like send them out on supervised work orders to pick up rubbish from the streets, scrub public loos and remove graffiti.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Essentially what these spammers have mostly done is cause a lot of people a great deal of inconvenience .
If they are guilty of phishing attacks , then that would surely come under the heading of theft or fraud , which would be punishable by jail under Spanish law .
Otherwise , jailing the creeps only places another drain on society , when what you really want is to stop them being antisocial , and preferably discourage others from doing the same .
So how about this , for a change : Make the guys do something actually useful for a few years .
Like send them out on supervised work orders to pick up rubbish from the streets , scrub public loos and remove graffiti .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Essentially what these spammers have mostly done is cause a lot of people a great deal of inconvenience.
If they are guilty of phishing attacks, then that would surely come under the heading of theft or fraud, which would be punishable by jail under Spanish law.
Otherwise, jailing the creeps only places another drain on society, when what you really want is to stop them being antisocial, and preferably discourage others from doing the same.
So how about this, for a change: Make the guys do something actually useful for a few years.
Like send them out on supervised work orders to pick up rubbish from the streets, scrub public loos and remove graffiti.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371876</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372176</id>
	<title>Extradition</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267810140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Unless all 12 million pcs were in Spain, they should qualify for extradition.  Most likely another EU country, but also the US.  Heck, Spain could just shop these guys around if they really want to maximize the pain to these guys.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless all 12 million pcs were in Spain , they should qualify for extradition .
Most likely another EU country , but also the US .
Heck , Spain could just shop these guys around if they really want to maximize the pain to these guys .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless all 12 million pcs were in Spain, they should qualify for extradition.
Most likely another EU country, but also the US.
Heck, Spain could just shop these guys around if they really want to maximize the pain to these guys.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31376122</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>naplam33</author>
	<datestamp>1267786560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>The Spanish system is too lax in many aspects, even terrorists that have killed dozens of people can get out of jail in maybe 20 years. By the way, there's also a recent case of a teenager who raped and burned alive a retarded girl, and he's now (like ~6 years later) out of prison and <a href="http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espana/policia/detiene/Madrid/Rafita/mientras/robaba/coche/elpepuesp/20100124elpepunac\_5/Tes" title="elpais.com" rel="nofollow">commiting crimes like car theft</a> [elpais.com], just because he was underage he is now out of prison. The maximum time you can spend in prison is 30 years (or 40 for terrorism), and the reductions apply to that time, not the time you were sentenced to (so for instance you can be sentenced to 200 years, but reductions apply to a 30-year period so you'll probably be out of jail even sooner than 30 years).</htmltext>
<tokenext>The Spanish system is too lax in many aspects , even terrorists that have killed dozens of people can get out of jail in maybe 20 years .
By the way , there 's also a recent case of a teenager who raped and burned alive a retarded girl , and he 's now ( like ~ 6 years later ) out of prison and commiting crimes like car theft [ elpais.com ] , just because he was underage he is now out of prison .
The maximum time you can spend in prison is 30 years ( or 40 for terrorism ) , and the reductions apply to that time , not the time you were sentenced to ( so for instance you can be sentenced to 200 years , but reductions apply to a 30-year period so you 'll probably be out of jail even sooner than 30 years ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Spanish system is too lax in many aspects, even terrorists that have killed dozens of people can get out of jail in maybe 20 years.
By the way, there's also a recent case of a teenager who raped and burned alive a retarded girl, and he's now (like ~6 years later) out of prison and commiting crimes like car theft [elpais.com], just because he was underage he is now out of prison.
The maximum time you can spend in prison is 30 years (or 40 for terrorism), and the reductions apply to that time, not the time you were sentenced to (so for instance you can be sentenced to 200 years, but reductions apply to a 30-year period so you'll probably be out of jail even sooner than 30 years).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371910</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372152</id>
	<title>WTF</title>
	<author>shemyazaz</author>
	<datestamp>1267810020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ok, I can understand having muddy rules where the operation of a botnet is concerned, but what I do not understand is how they can get away with launching that DDOS attack. Shouldn't that be like large scale vandalism or something? Hard to imagine them getting away scott free.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ok , I can understand having muddy rules where the operation of a botnet is concerned , but what I do not understand is how they can get away with launching that DDOS attack .
Should n't that be like large scale vandalism or something ?
Hard to imagine them getting away scott free .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ok, I can understand having muddy rules where the operation of a botnet is concerned, but what I do not understand is how they can get away with launching that DDOS attack.
Shouldn't that be like large scale vandalism or something?
Hard to imagine them getting away scott free.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31374292</id>
	<title>Re:Serious crime?</title>
	<author>thomst</author>
	<datestamp>1267820160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Do they grasp the economic impact of these botnets?  There may not be any physical violence, but the spam hassels, system cleanup, and DDOS attacks create hundreads of millions of dollars in economic damages.  Sure, that's distributed over millions of people, but this sort of macroscopic vandalism is, in fact, a major crime.  Throw the book at 'em.</p></div><p>Which part of </p><p><div class="quote"><p>"Spain is one of nearly three dozen countries that is a signatory to the Council of Europe's cybercrime treaty, but Spanish legislators have not yet ratified the treaty by passing anti-cybercrime laws that would bring its judicial system in line with the treaty's goals,"</p></div><p> was unclear to you?</p><p>They <i>can't</i> "throw the book at 'em", because <b>there <i>is</i> no "book"</b>. What they've done <i>is not a crime under Spanish law</i>.</p><p>What needs to happen is that some country that has an extradition treaty with Spain (and that has laws against computer intrusion, etc.) needs to bring charges against them and request their extradition for prosecution under those laws.</p><p> <i>Disclaimer:</i> IANAL. And, most likely, neither are you.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do they grasp the economic impact of these botnets ?
There may not be any physical violence , but the spam hassels , system cleanup , and DDOS attacks create hundreads of millions of dollars in economic damages .
Sure , that 's distributed over millions of people , but this sort of macroscopic vandalism is , in fact , a major crime .
Throw the book at 'em.Which part of " Spain is one of nearly three dozen countries that is a signatory to the Council of Europe 's cybercrime treaty , but Spanish legislators have not yet ratified the treaty by passing anti-cybercrime laws that would bring its judicial system in line with the treaty 's goals , " was unclear to you ? They ca n't " throw the book at 'em " , because there is no " book " .
What they 've done is not a crime under Spanish law.What needs to happen is that some country that has an extradition treaty with Spain ( and that has laws against computer intrusion , etc .
) needs to bring charges against them and request their extradition for prosecution under those laws .
Disclaimer : IANAL .
And , most likely , neither are you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do they grasp the economic impact of these botnets?
There may not be any physical violence, but the spam hassels, system cleanup, and DDOS attacks create hundreads of millions of dollars in economic damages.
Sure, that's distributed over millions of people, but this sort of macroscopic vandalism is, in fact, a major crime.
Throw the book at 'em.Which part of "Spain is one of nearly three dozen countries that is a signatory to the Council of Europe's cybercrime treaty, but Spanish legislators have not yet ratified the treaty by passing anti-cybercrime laws that would bring its judicial system in line with the treaty's goals," was unclear to you?They can't "throw the book at 'em", because there is no "book".
What they've done is not a crime under Spanish law.What needs to happen is that some country that has an extradition treaty with Spain (and that has laws against computer intrusion, etc.
) needs to bring charges against them and request their extradition for prosecution under those laws.
Disclaimer: IANAL.
And, most likely, neither are you.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371964</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371912</id>
	<title>Awsome</title>
	<author>robinstar1574</author>
	<datestamp>1267808940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So the Spanish never thought to prosecute cybercrime yet. *waddles over to spain* just kidding</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So the Spanish never thought to prosecute cybercrime yet .
* waddles over to spain * just kidding</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So the Spanish never thought to prosecute cybercrime yet.
*waddles over to spain* just kidding</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31374224</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1267819860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Theres a difference between my geek rich quick scheme of 'The Pet Rock 2' and breaking into someones house and using their PC without permission to scam millions of other people out of money, likely stealing personal information from the infected machines along the way.</p><p>All crimes are treated as crimes.  The level of punishment is adjusted based on the effect of the crime.</p><p>Throwing a soda can on the ground is a crime and comes with a small fine cause its very likely to do anyone any serious damage.</p><p>Throwing 12 million soda cans on the ground is an entirely different story.  At that point, yes, you throw them in jail, after you've made them pick every single can up with their teeth.</p><p>You don't throw everyone in jail because 'they committed a crime', no one anywhere is suggesting that.  People do tend to get pissed off when you do something on a massive scale to millions of people and then you get a slap on the wrist.</p><p>Personally, I'd execute all of them if found guilty.  They won't commit the crime again and I promise you that will deter a few others from doing it.</p><p>Alternatively, to be 'fair', we give them a slap on the wrist.  One for each PC infected, given by the owner (or designated hitter) of the infected PC.  Thats fair is it not?  Its less than they would get for breaking into someones home and infecting their PC.  So<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... &gt; 12 million slaps.  Yep, lets see how well they survive that one.</p><p>A little perspective goes a long way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Theres a difference between my geek rich quick scheme of 'The Pet Rock 2 ' and breaking into someones house and using their PC without permission to scam millions of other people out of money , likely stealing personal information from the infected machines along the way.All crimes are treated as crimes .
The level of punishment is adjusted based on the effect of the crime.Throwing a soda can on the ground is a crime and comes with a small fine cause its very likely to do anyone any serious damage.Throwing 12 million soda cans on the ground is an entirely different story .
At that point , yes , you throw them in jail , after you 've made them pick every single can up with their teeth.You do n't throw everyone in jail because 'they committed a crime ' , no one anywhere is suggesting that .
People do tend to get pissed off when you do something on a massive scale to millions of people and then you get a slap on the wrist.Personally , I 'd execute all of them if found guilty .
They wo n't commit the crime again and I promise you that will deter a few others from doing it.Alternatively , to be 'fair ' , we give them a slap on the wrist .
One for each PC infected , given by the owner ( or designated hitter ) of the infected PC .
Thats fair is it not ?
Its less than they would get for breaking into someones home and infecting their PC .
So ... &gt; 12 million slaps .
Yep , lets see how well they survive that one.A little perspective goes a long way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Theres a difference between my geek rich quick scheme of 'The Pet Rock 2' and breaking into someones house and using their PC without permission to scam millions of other people out of money, likely stealing personal information from the infected machines along the way.All crimes are treated as crimes.
The level of punishment is adjusted based on the effect of the crime.Throwing a soda can on the ground is a crime and comes with a small fine cause its very likely to do anyone any serious damage.Throwing 12 million soda cans on the ground is an entirely different story.
At that point, yes, you throw them in jail, after you've made them pick every single can up with their teeth.You don't throw everyone in jail because 'they committed a crime', no one anywhere is suggesting that.
People do tend to get pissed off when you do something on a massive scale to millions of people and then you get a slap on the wrist.Personally, I'd execute all of them if found guilty.
They won't commit the crime again and I promise you that will deter a few others from doing it.Alternatively, to be 'fair', we give them a slap on the wrist.
One for each PC infected, given by the owner (or designated hitter) of the infected PC.
Thats fair is it not?
Its less than they would get for breaking into someones home and infecting their PC.
So ... &gt; 12 million slaps.
Yep, lets see how well they survive that one.A little perspective goes a long way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372308</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372224</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267810440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Change that from 'no prison for non-violent criminals' to 'no prison with violent criminals for non-violent criminals' and I think you're on to something.  I say lock these guys up for a good stay, even if not in the same prison they keep killers, rapists, and other physically violent criminals in.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Change that from 'no prison for non-violent criminals ' to 'no prison with violent criminals for non-violent criminals ' and I think you 're on to something .
I say lock these guys up for a good stay , even if not in the same prison they keep killers , rapists , and other physically violent criminals in .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Change that from 'no prison for non-violent criminals' to 'no prison with violent criminals for non-violent criminals' and I think you're on to something.
I say lock these guys up for a good stay, even if not in the same prison they keep killers, rapists, and other physically violent criminals in.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371910</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31374260</id>
	<title>Re:Beats the RIAA lawsuits</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1267820040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So you offer to fix a horribly broken law by allowing another horribly broken law to exist?  Brilliant.  Two wrongs do make a right after all!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So you offer to fix a horribly broken law by allowing another horribly broken law to exist ?
Brilliant. Two wrongs do make a right after all !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you offer to fix a horribly broken law by allowing another horribly broken law to exist?
Brilliant.  Two wrongs do make a right after all!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371932</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31373656</id>
	<title>"Cyber-crime legislation"?</title>
	<author>Corson</author>
	<datestamp>1267817340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"insufficient cyber-crime legislation" -- Money was obviously stoled from people's bank accounts, shouldn't that be sufficient to prosecute the thiefs?</htmltext>
<tokenext>" insufficient cyber-crime legislation " -- Money was obviously stoled from people 's bank accounts , should n't that be sufficient to prosecute the thiefs ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"insufficient cyber-crime legislation" -- Money was obviously stoled from people's bank accounts, shouldn't that be sufficient to prosecute the thiefs?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372420</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>jellomizer</author>
	<datestamp>1267811460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The point of a prison really isn't punishment per-say but a way to keep dangerous people away from the public so they don't hurt others.   The Death Penalty should be only used if the person would still be a threat while they are still in prison.  (which usually isn't the case even for the most horrible criminals).</p><p>Now for the United states there is this odd rule about Cruel and Unusual Punishment.  However it is kinda odd, but it is often a bad detractor for new innovations in justice.  Things like castration of serious sex offenders, Having to pay back people they scammed with 50\% APR in installments....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The point of a prison really is n't punishment per-say but a way to keep dangerous people away from the public so they do n't hurt others .
The Death Penalty should be only used if the person would still be a threat while they are still in prison .
( which usually is n't the case even for the most horrible criminals ) .Now for the United states there is this odd rule about Cruel and Unusual Punishment .
However it is kinda odd , but it is often a bad detractor for new innovations in justice .
Things like castration of serious sex offenders , Having to pay back people they scammed with 50 \ % APR in installments... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The point of a prison really isn't punishment per-say but a way to keep dangerous people away from the public so they don't hurt others.
The Death Penalty should be only used if the person would still be a threat while they are still in prison.
(which usually isn't the case even for the most horrible criminals).Now for the United states there is this odd rule about Cruel and Unusual Punishment.
However it is kinda odd, but it is often a bad detractor for new innovations in justice.
Things like castration of serious sex offenders, Having to pay back people they scammed with 50\% APR in installments....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371910</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31371926</id>
	<title>Theft and fraud are not crimes in Spain?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267809060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This sounds like another "there ought to be a law" call for adoption of the new cybercrime treaty when there are plenty of laws already on the books that just need to be enforced.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This sounds like another " there ought to be a law " call for adoption of the new cybercrime treaty when there are plenty of laws already on the books that just need to be enforced .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This sounds like another "there ought to be a law" call for adoption of the new cybercrime treaty when there are plenty of laws already on the books that just need to be enforced.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31372728</id>
	<title>Re:There SHOULD be existing laws that cover this</title>
	<author>horza</author>
	<datestamp>1267813140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's a poor analogy. They have laws against fraud. The article says it will take longer to gather evidence and proof of wrong-doing to put them in jail, rather than being able to short-cut and just tie them to a bunch of hacked IP addresses to put them in the slammer. If you bash somebody with an object, it's pretty easy to identify the victim and get prints off the object. The article implies that the digital forensics in this instance is hard work.</p><p>Maybe a better analogy is gun or knife control. In the US, carrying a gun or knife (I know each State has difference laws, but in general) is legal. If somebody is murdered, you then have to find the weapon, the perpetrator, and circumstantial evidence or witnesses. In the UK we short-cut this and just assume anybody carrying a gun or knife is guilty, either having committed a crime or is about to, and we put them directly in jail if anybody is found in the streets to be carrying one. A botnet, ignoring abusing somebody else's resources, could in theory be used to try and find a cure for cancer. In practice it will probably be used by spammers. So do you ban the tool or punish the ultimate crime? There is no clear cut answer, it is very much influenced by democratic ideals vs police resources.</p><p>I personally disagree with either jail time or simply a fine. Many hours of community services, tidying pavements or painting over graffiti, seems a more appropriate punishment.</p><p>Phillip.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's a poor analogy .
They have laws against fraud .
The article says it will take longer to gather evidence and proof of wrong-doing to put them in jail , rather than being able to short-cut and just tie them to a bunch of hacked IP addresses to put them in the slammer .
If you bash somebody with an object , it 's pretty easy to identify the victim and get prints off the object .
The article implies that the digital forensics in this instance is hard work.Maybe a better analogy is gun or knife control .
In the US , carrying a gun or knife ( I know each State has difference laws , but in general ) is legal .
If somebody is murdered , you then have to find the weapon , the perpetrator , and circumstantial evidence or witnesses .
In the UK we short-cut this and just assume anybody carrying a gun or knife is guilty , either having committed a crime or is about to , and we put them directly in jail if anybody is found in the streets to be carrying one .
A botnet , ignoring abusing somebody else 's resources , could in theory be used to try and find a cure for cancer .
In practice it will probably be used by spammers .
So do you ban the tool or punish the ultimate crime ?
There is no clear cut answer , it is very much influenced by democratic ideals vs police resources.I personally disagree with either jail time or simply a fine .
Many hours of community services , tidying pavements or painting over graffiti , seems a more appropriate punishment.Phillip .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's a poor analogy.
They have laws against fraud.
The article says it will take longer to gather evidence and proof of wrong-doing to put them in jail, rather than being able to short-cut and just tie them to a bunch of hacked IP addresses to put them in the slammer.
If you bash somebody with an object, it's pretty easy to identify the victim and get prints off the object.
The article implies that the digital forensics in this instance is hard work.Maybe a better analogy is gun or knife control.
In the US, carrying a gun or knife (I know each State has difference laws, but in general) is legal.
If somebody is murdered, you then have to find the weapon, the perpetrator, and circumstantial evidence or witnesses.
In the UK we short-cut this and just assume anybody carrying a gun or knife is guilty, either having committed a crime or is about to, and we put them directly in jail if anybody is found in the streets to be carrying one.
A botnet, ignoring abusing somebody else's resources, could in theory be used to try and find a cure for cancer.
In practice it will probably be used by spammers.
So do you ban the tool or punish the ultimate crime?
There is no clear cut answer, it is very much influenced by democratic ideals vs police resources.I personally disagree with either jail time or simply a fine.
Many hours of community services, tidying pavements or painting over graffiti, seems a more appropriate punishment.Phillip.</sentencetext>
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<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31373286</id>
	<title>Re:And prison SHOULDN'T be used for non-violent cr</title>
	<author>Jahava</author>
	<datestamp>1267815720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Yes, these people should be punished.   But I agree with Spain's prison/court system when they say that prison is for violent crime.</p></div><p>Punishment aside, prison (in this sense) is a method of restricting disruptive peoples' access to society, thus eliminating their ability to disrupt society. These people are certainly disruptive to society. Your argument, therefore, must be that there is a more appropriate method to restrict their access to society besides imprisonment. I agree, in theory, since it is via electronic access, rather than physical access, that they have proven themselves a threat. If you can <b>effectively</b> deny their electronic access to society, then perhaps that is a viable solution. Imprisonment is a nice failsafe, though: in prison, their life is controlled, and thus their electronic access is controlled.</p><p>However, don't forget that while their vector is electronic, they have demonstrated themselves to be willing of crossing the mental threshold and engaging in harmful activities. Don't pretend that just because their crime is electronic that the impacts of this crime are any less real. They have stolen identities, causing financial damage to institutions and multifaceted damage to those individuals. Financial damage costs money to recover from. That money could be distributed amongst the populous (via fines, increased service rates, etc.), or burdened upon a few unlucky individuals (potentially ruining their lives), but there <em>is</em> a cost. Their botnet compromised millions of machines (if even one in every thousand crashed because of them, this is still substantial data and time loss), provided platforms for cyber-attacks, and burdened millions with spam messages. At a scale of 13 million machines, I wouldn't be surprised if some lives were lost.</p><p>I am assuming here that they're not stupid. They were perfectly aware of all of this. They knew the damage, pain, and mayhem that their actions were causing on a widespread level, and yet they went ahead and performed them. They have demonstrated that they are capable of inflicting significant harm to others for personal gain. While their current vector was electronic, I can understand why society (Spanish and as a whole) might want someone who has demonstrated this will to be removed from it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , these people should be punished .
But I agree with Spain 's prison/court system when they say that prison is for violent crime.Punishment aside , prison ( in this sense ) is a method of restricting disruptive peoples ' access to society , thus eliminating their ability to disrupt society .
These people are certainly disruptive to society .
Your argument , therefore , must be that there is a more appropriate method to restrict their access to society besides imprisonment .
I agree , in theory , since it is via electronic access , rather than physical access , that they have proven themselves a threat .
If you can effectively deny their electronic access to society , then perhaps that is a viable solution .
Imprisonment is a nice failsafe , though : in prison , their life is controlled , and thus their electronic access is controlled.However , do n't forget that while their vector is electronic , they have demonstrated themselves to be willing of crossing the mental threshold and engaging in harmful activities .
Do n't pretend that just because their crime is electronic that the impacts of this crime are any less real .
They have stolen identities , causing financial damage to institutions and multifaceted damage to those individuals .
Financial damage costs money to recover from .
That money could be distributed amongst the populous ( via fines , increased service rates , etc .
) , or burdened upon a few unlucky individuals ( potentially ruining their lives ) , but there is a cost .
Their botnet compromised millions of machines ( if even one in every thousand crashed because of them , this is still substantial data and time loss ) , provided platforms for cyber-attacks , and burdened millions with spam messages .
At a scale of 13 million machines , I would n't be surprised if some lives were lost.I am assuming here that they 're not stupid .
They were perfectly aware of all of this .
They knew the damage , pain , and mayhem that their actions were causing on a widespread level , and yet they went ahead and performed them .
They have demonstrated that they are capable of inflicting significant harm to others for personal gain .
While their current vector was electronic , I can understand why society ( Spanish and as a whole ) might want someone who has demonstrated this will to be removed from it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, these people should be punished.
But I agree with Spain's prison/court system when they say that prison is for violent crime.Punishment aside, prison (in this sense) is a method of restricting disruptive peoples' access to society, thus eliminating their ability to disrupt society.
These people are certainly disruptive to society.
Your argument, therefore, must be that there is a more appropriate method to restrict their access to society besides imprisonment.
I agree, in theory, since it is via electronic access, rather than physical access, that they have proven themselves a threat.
If you can effectively deny their electronic access to society, then perhaps that is a viable solution.
Imprisonment is a nice failsafe, though: in prison, their life is controlled, and thus their electronic access is controlled.However, don't forget that while their vector is electronic, they have demonstrated themselves to be willing of crossing the mental threshold and engaging in harmful activities.
Don't pretend that just because their crime is electronic that the impacts of this crime are any less real.
They have stolen identities, causing financial damage to institutions and multifaceted damage to those individuals.
Financial damage costs money to recover from.
That money could be distributed amongst the populous (via fines, increased service rates, etc.
), or burdened upon a few unlucky individuals (potentially ruining their lives), but there is a cost.
Their botnet compromised millions of machines (if even one in every thousand crashed because of them, this is still substantial data and time loss), provided platforms for cyber-attacks, and burdened millions with spam messages.
At a scale of 13 million machines, I wouldn't be surprised if some lives were lost.I am assuming here that they're not stupid.
They were perfectly aware of all of this.
They knew the damage, pain, and mayhem that their actions were causing on a widespread level, and yet they went ahead and performed them.
They have demonstrated that they are capable of inflicting significant harm to others for personal gain.
While their current vector was electronic, I can understand why society (Spanish and as a whole) might want someone who has demonstrated this will to be removed from it.
	</sentencetext>
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<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_155202.31374898</id>
	<title>Re:what do you propose?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267780020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Frankly I think that cybercrimes should be punishable at the same level of their real world equivalent, though perhaps the punishments on both sides should be reevaluated if there is really is a better alternative to jail</p></div><p>This *is* the real world! Computer crime is not happening in the "imaginary world".</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Frankly I think that cybercrimes should be punishable at the same level of their real world equivalent , though perhaps the punishments on both sides should be reevaluated if there is really is a better alternative to jailThis * is * the real world !
Computer crime is not happening in the " imaginary world " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Frankly I think that cybercrimes should be punishable at the same level of their real world equivalent, though perhaps the punishments on both sides should be reevaluated if there is really is a better alternative to jailThis *is* the real world!
Computer crime is not happening in the "imaginary world".
	</sentencetext>
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