<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_05_0241241</id>
	<title>Toyota Black Box Data Is More Closed Than Others'</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1267812720000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>wjr writes <i>"Many cars these days contain black boxes that record information (speed, accelerator position, etc) and can preserve information in the case of an accident.  Ford and Chrysler say that they use 'open systems' so anyone can read out the data; General Motors has licensed Bosch to produce a device capable of reading its cars' black boxes.  On the other hand, Toyota has <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100304/ap\_on\_hi\_te/us\_toyota\_black\_boxes">only a single laptop in the US</a> capable of reading its cars' black boxes, and generally won't allow the data to be read without a court order.  Honda seems to have a similar policy. This is emerging as an issue in the investigation into unintended acceleration."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>wjr writes " Many cars these days contain black boxes that record information ( speed , accelerator position , etc ) and can preserve information in the case of an accident .
Ford and Chrysler say that they use 'open systems ' so anyone can read out the data ; General Motors has licensed Bosch to produce a device capable of reading its cars ' black boxes .
On the other hand , Toyota has only a single laptop in the US capable of reading its cars ' black boxes , and generally wo n't allow the data to be read without a court order .
Honda seems to have a similar policy .
This is emerging as an issue in the investigation into unintended acceleration .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>wjr writes "Many cars these days contain black boxes that record information (speed, accelerator position, etc) and can preserve information in the case of an accident.
Ford and Chrysler say that they use 'open systems' so anyone can read out the data; General Motors has licensed Bosch to produce a device capable of reading its cars' black boxes.
On the other hand, Toyota has only a single laptop in the US capable of reading its cars' black boxes, and generally won't allow the data to be read without a court order.
Honda seems to have a similar policy.
This is emerging as an issue in the investigation into unintended acceleration.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368620</id>
	<title>YUO FAIL IT</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267782240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>very sick and its for it. I don't Baby take my Fear the reaper Distended. All I of the above channel, you might a relatively fun to be again. at least.' Nobody BSD culminated in as the premiere with any sort a child knows argued by Eric filed countersuit, opinion in other market. Therefore survival prospects same worth7ess had become like the system clean so that you don't so that you don't are allowed to play PROBLEM STEMS YOUR SPARE TIME very sick and its Could sink your fear the reaper already aware, *BSD Been the best, from one folder on balance is struck, BSD style.' In the with process and BEEN LOOKING FOR!</htmltext>
<tokenext>very sick and its for it .
I do n't Baby take my Fear the reaper Distended .
All I of the above channel , you might a relatively fun to be again .
at least .
' Nobody BSD culminated in as the premiere with any sort a child knows argued by Eric filed countersuit , opinion in other market .
Therefore survival prospects same worth7ess had become like the system clean so that you do n't so that you do n't are allowed to play PROBLEM STEMS YOUR SPARE TIME very sick and its Could sink your fear the reaper already aware , * BSD Been the best , from one folder on balance is struck , BSD style .
' In the with process and BEEN LOOKING FOR !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>very sick and its for it.
I don't Baby take my Fear the reaper Distended.
All I of the above channel, you might a relatively fun to be again.
at least.
' Nobody BSD culminated in as the premiere with any sort a child knows argued by Eric filed countersuit, opinion in other market.
Therefore survival prospects same worth7ess had become like the system clean so that you don't so that you don't are allowed to play PROBLEM STEMS YOUR SPARE TIME very sick and its Could sink your fear the reaper already aware, *BSD Been the best, from one folder on balance is struck, BSD style.
' In the with process and BEEN LOOKING FOR!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368132</id>
	<title>Re:A challenge...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267819380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The only hack I'm interested in is one that disables the system. I consider these "black boxes" a massive invasion of privacy and in no way benefit me personally. Yes I know the argument would be what if I'm the victim in an accident wouldn't I want the courts to access the other guy's black box? The same argument can be made for recording phone calls and other invasions of privacy. You'd have to accept all privacy is bad. I don't wish to live under a microscope. I'm tired of people giving away my freedom because they think it makes them safer. all it does is make you less free. I should be able to drive to the store without a record of it being kept in my car. Already most of my purchases are tracked so now my location is tracked as well? I know so far the information is hard to access but the government is pushing for more and more access to the information. Eventually the info will be provided for things like divorce court. Do I have something to hide? That isn't the point the point is do we all want to live where we have to second guess how our actions will be interpreted later?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The only hack I 'm interested in is one that disables the system .
I consider these " black boxes " a massive invasion of privacy and in no way benefit me personally .
Yes I know the argument would be what if I 'm the victim in an accident would n't I want the courts to access the other guy 's black box ?
The same argument can be made for recording phone calls and other invasions of privacy .
You 'd have to accept all privacy is bad .
I do n't wish to live under a microscope .
I 'm tired of people giving away my freedom because they think it makes them safer .
all it does is make you less free .
I should be able to drive to the store without a record of it being kept in my car .
Already most of my purchases are tracked so now my location is tracked as well ?
I know so far the information is hard to access but the government is pushing for more and more access to the information .
Eventually the info will be provided for things like divorce court .
Do I have something to hide ?
That is n't the point the point is do we all want to live where we have to second guess how our actions will be interpreted later ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only hack I'm interested in is one that disables the system.
I consider these "black boxes" a massive invasion of privacy and in no way benefit me personally.
Yes I know the argument would be what if I'm the victim in an accident wouldn't I want the courts to access the other guy's black box?
The same argument can be made for recording phone calls and other invasions of privacy.
You'd have to accept all privacy is bad.
I don't wish to live under a microscope.
I'm tired of people giving away my freedom because they think it makes them safer.
all it does is make you less free.
I should be able to drive to the store without a record of it being kept in my car.
Already most of my purchases are tracked so now my location is tracked as well?
I know so far the information is hard to access but the government is pushing for more and more access to the information.
Eventually the info will be provided for things like divorce court.
Do I have something to hide?
That isn't the point the point is do we all want to live where we have to second guess how our actions will be interpreted later?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31367888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31369998</id>
	<title>Re:Surprising</title>
	<author>xactuary</author>
	<datestamp>1267798920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Stop This? Nonsense!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Stop This ?
Nonsense !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stop This?
Nonsense!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368746</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31447406</id>
	<title>unknown danger</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268316240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wanna talk about spinning out of control Toyota is Dropping the ball in a huge way.<br>Another very public runaway car related to the pedal recall  http://www.carpedalrecall.com check if your car is affected<br>but then recalling all Tundra trucks from 2000 - 2003 so many they don't even release a number of affected vehicles .<br>I Can't see it getting any better for them any time soon , just worse<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wan na talk about spinning out of control Toyota is Dropping the ball in a huge way.Another very public runaway car related to the pedal recall http : //www.carpedalrecall.com check if your car is affectedbut then recalling all Tundra trucks from 2000 - 2003 so many they do n't even release a number of affected vehicles .I Ca n't see it getting any better for them any time soon , just worse .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wanna talk about spinning out of control Toyota is Dropping the ball in a huge way.Another very public runaway car related to the pedal recall  http://www.carpedalrecall.com check if your car is affectedbut then recalling all Tundra trucks from 2000 - 2003 so many they don't even release a number of affected vehicles .I Can't see it getting any better for them any time soon , just worse ...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31372206</id>
	<title>Re:Let's nip this Toyota bashing in the bud</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267810320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How do you get that they were "holding back" out of that? All I see is the all-too-common disconnect between a corporation and the product users. In this case they eventually got around to finding a couple replicable and fixable issues. Where's the malice? News articles on a single crash event can't prompt instant recalls for millions of vehicles, so I fail to see the correlation there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How do you get that they were " holding back " out of that ?
All I see is the all-too-common disconnect between a corporation and the product users .
In this case they eventually got around to finding a couple replicable and fixable issues .
Where 's the malice ?
News articles on a single crash event ca n't prompt instant recalls for millions of vehicles , so I fail to see the correlation there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How do you get that they were "holding back" out of that?
All I see is the all-too-common disconnect between a corporation and the product users.
In this case they eventually got around to finding a couple replicable and fixable issues.
Where's the malice?
News articles on a single crash event can't prompt instant recalls for millions of vehicles, so I fail to see the correlation there.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368122</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31369546</id>
	<title>Re:A challenge...</title>
	<author>brufleth</author>
	<datestamp>1267794300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The data is probably just standard unencrypted hex in the NVM.  All you really need is to line up the data with the parameters.  Assuming four byte values you could run the car through known cycles instrumented up and then start looking to line things up like RPM, temp, torque, etc.  Not something most people could do in their garage but certainly not impossible.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The data is probably just standard unencrypted hex in the NVM .
All you really need is to line up the data with the parameters .
Assuming four byte values you could run the car through known cycles instrumented up and then start looking to line things up like RPM , temp , torque , etc .
Not something most people could do in their garage but certainly not impossible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The data is probably just standard unencrypted hex in the NVM.
All you really need is to line up the data with the parameters.
Assuming four byte values you could run the car through known cycles instrumented up and then start looking to line things up like RPM, temp, torque, etc.
Not something most people could do in their garage but certainly not impossible.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31367990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368128</id>
	<title>Re:Time must have changed.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267819320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's not as inconsistent as you'd think- if the owner of car wants the blackbox data, she should get it, no problem.  If anybody else wants the data, let 'em either ask the owner to voluntarily go along with it, or ask a judge for a court order (with appropriate legal conditionals so the judge can't just rubberstamp it).</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not as inconsistent as you 'd think- if the owner of car wants the blackbox data , she should get it , no problem .
If anybody else wants the data , let 'em either ask the owner to voluntarily go along with it , or ask a judge for a court order ( with appropriate legal conditionals so the judge ca n't just rubberstamp it ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not as inconsistent as you'd think- if the owner of car wants the blackbox data, she should get it, no problem.
If anybody else wants the data, let 'em either ask the owner to voluntarily go along with it, or ask a judge for a court order (with appropriate legal conditionals so the judge can't just rubberstamp it).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31367980</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368156</id>
	<title>Re:Let's nip this Toyota bashing in the bud</title>
	<author>Lehk228</author>
	<datestamp>1267819620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>those failing tires? were made by bridgestone/firestone, a japanese company.<br> <br>and the pinto?<blockquote><div><p>However, a 1991 law review paper by Gary Schwartz[17] claimed the case against the Pinto was less clear-cut than commonly supposed. The number who died in Pinto rear-impact fires, according to Schwartz, was well below the hundreds cited in contemporary news reports and closer to the twenty-seven recorded by a limited National Highway Traffic Safety Administration database. Given the Pinto's production figures (over 2 million built), this was not substantially worse than typical for the time. Schwartz argued that the car was no more fire-prone than other cars of the time, that its fatality rates were lower than comparably sized imported automobiles, and that the supposed "smoking gun" document that plaintiffs claimed showed Ford's callousness in designing the Pinto was actually a document based on National Highway Traffic Safety Administration regulations about the value of a human life rather than a document containing an assessment of Ford's potential tort liability.</p></div></blockquote></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>those failing tires ?
were made by bridgestone/firestone , a japanese company .
and the pinto ? However , a 1991 law review paper by Gary Schwartz [ 17 ] claimed the case against the Pinto was less clear-cut than commonly supposed .
The number who died in Pinto rear-impact fires , according to Schwartz , was well below the hundreds cited in contemporary news reports and closer to the twenty-seven recorded by a limited National Highway Traffic Safety Administration database .
Given the Pinto 's production figures ( over 2 million built ) , this was not substantially worse than typical for the time .
Schwartz argued that the car was no more fire-prone than other cars of the time , that its fatality rates were lower than comparably sized imported automobiles , and that the supposed " smoking gun " document that plaintiffs claimed showed Ford 's callousness in designing the Pinto was actually a document based on National Highway Traffic Safety Administration regulations about the value of a human life rather than a document containing an assessment of Ford 's potential tort liability .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>those failing tires?
were made by bridgestone/firestone, a japanese company.
and the pinto?However, a 1991 law review paper by Gary Schwartz[17] claimed the case against the Pinto was less clear-cut than commonly supposed.
The number who died in Pinto rear-impact fires, according to Schwartz, was well below the hundreds cited in contemporary news reports and closer to the twenty-seven recorded by a limited National Highway Traffic Safety Administration database.
Given the Pinto's production figures (over 2 million built), this was not substantially worse than typical for the time.
Schwartz argued that the car was no more fire-prone than other cars of the time, that its fatality rates were lower than comparably sized imported automobiles, and that the supposed "smoking gun" document that plaintiffs claimed showed Ford's callousness in designing the Pinto was actually a document based on National Highway Traffic Safety Administration regulations about the value of a human life rather than a document containing an assessment of Ford's potential tort liability.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368000</id>
	<title>Let's nip this Toyota bashing in the bud</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267731420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Absolutely *no* car manufacturer has your best interest at heart. Not Toyota, not Ford, not GM, not a single one of them.</p><p>Who made the SUVs that literally jumped off their tires and turtled at so much as a harsh look? Who made trucks and thought it was a brilliant idea to mount the gas tanks *outside* of the frame? Who made cars that exploded when they were nudged at the backend? Which car manufacturer computes the costs of killing some of their customers vs. spending a bit more to make each vehicle safe?</p><p>It's not just Toyota. But, today, with the US government being the largest shareholder in GM, I would bet that life for Toyota is going to get really bad.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Absolutely * no * car manufacturer has your best interest at heart .
Not Toyota , not Ford , not GM , not a single one of them.Who made the SUVs that literally jumped off their tires and turtled at so much as a harsh look ?
Who made trucks and thought it was a brilliant idea to mount the gas tanks * outside * of the frame ?
Who made cars that exploded when they were nudged at the backend ?
Which car manufacturer computes the costs of killing some of their customers vs. spending a bit more to make each vehicle safe ? It 's not just Toyota .
But , today , with the US government being the largest shareholder in GM , I would bet that life for Toyota is going to get really bad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Absolutely *no* car manufacturer has your best interest at heart.
Not Toyota, not Ford, not GM, not a single one of them.Who made the SUVs that literally jumped off their tires and turtled at so much as a harsh look?
Who made trucks and thought it was a brilliant idea to mount the gas tanks *outside* of the frame?
Who made cars that exploded when they were nudged at the backend?
Which car manufacturer computes the costs of killing some of their customers vs. spending a bit more to make each vehicle safe?It's not just Toyota.
But, today, with the US government being the largest shareholder in GM, I would bet that life for Toyota is going to get really bad.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31369892</id>
	<title>Language Barrier.....</title>
	<author>IHC Navistar</author>
	<datestamp>1267797780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I believe that Toyota's obstinence to providing such information to the concerned parties in the light of such serious safety issues is the result of a serious language barrier between Japanese and American English. Someone should provide the Japs with an accurate explaination of the following important sayings and terminology:</p><p>1) "We will screw you to the wall in a court of law",</p><p>2) "Gorilla Lawyer assrape",</p><p>3) "Pound me in the ass prison",</p><p>4) "Contempt Of Court",</p><p>5) "There is another nuke headed your way, in the form of a lawsuit",</p><p>6) "You don't have a choice",</p><p>7) "We're not in Japan",</p><p>8) "Supoena",</p><p>9) "De-listing"</p><p>and last, but certainly not least,</p><p>10) "North Korean Menace".</p><p>I believe that the clarification and explanation of the aforementioned terms would lead to the speedy resolution of the problems that are currently occurring with the Toyota Motor Corporation and it's products.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I believe that Toyota 's obstinence to providing such information to the concerned parties in the light of such serious safety issues is the result of a serious language barrier between Japanese and American English .
Someone should provide the Japs with an accurate explaination of the following important sayings and terminology : 1 ) " We will screw you to the wall in a court of law " ,2 ) " Gorilla Lawyer assrape " ,3 ) " Pound me in the ass prison " ,4 ) " Contempt Of Court " ,5 ) " There is another nuke headed your way , in the form of a lawsuit " ,6 ) " You do n't have a choice " ,7 ) " We 're not in Japan " ,8 ) " Supoena " ,9 ) " De-listing " and last , but certainly not least,10 ) " North Korean Menace " .I believe that the clarification and explanation of the aforementioned terms would lead to the speedy resolution of the problems that are currently occurring with the Toyota Motor Corporation and it 's products .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I believe that Toyota's obstinence to providing such information to the concerned parties in the light of such serious safety issues is the result of a serious language barrier between Japanese and American English.
Someone should provide the Japs with an accurate explaination of the following important sayings and terminology:1) "We will screw you to the wall in a court of law",2) "Gorilla Lawyer assrape",3) "Pound me in the ass prison",4) "Contempt Of Court",5) "There is another nuke headed your way, in the form of a lawsuit",6) "You don't have a choice",7) "We're not in Japan",8) "Supoena",9) "De-listing"and last, but certainly not least,10) "North Korean Menace".I believe that the clarification and explanation of the aforementioned terms would lead to the speedy resolution of the problems that are currently occurring with the Toyota Motor Corporation and it's products.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31369766</id>
	<title>That's interesting.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267796640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's interesting.  Perhaps openness is related to quality...  When Toyota's quality was high (back in the '90's, they used industry standard computer interfaces).  Back then, Ford and GM were both pretty shoddy and they used proprietary software.  Now, Toyota's quality definitely has dropped off (I saw it back in 2002 when a friend bought a new Celica and my decade older MR2 was higher quality) and they've gone proprietary.  Ford and GM quality has definitely improved, and they've gone open...  Hmmm.  Coincedence, perhaps...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's interesting .
Perhaps openness is related to quality... When Toyota 's quality was high ( back in the '90 's , they used industry standard computer interfaces ) .
Back then , Ford and GM were both pretty shoddy and they used proprietary software .
Now , Toyota 's quality definitely has dropped off ( I saw it back in 2002 when a friend bought a new Celica and my decade older MR2 was higher quality ) and they 've gone proprietary .
Ford and GM quality has definitely improved , and they 've gone open... Hmmm. Coincedence , perhaps.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's interesting.
Perhaps openness is related to quality...  When Toyota's quality was high (back in the '90's, they used industry standard computer interfaces).
Back then, Ford and GM were both pretty shoddy and they used proprietary software.
Now, Toyota's quality definitely has dropped off (I saw it back in 2002 when a friend bought a new Celica and my decade older MR2 was higher quality) and they've gone proprietary.
Ford and GM quality has definitely improved, and they've gone open...  Hmmm.  Coincedence, perhaps...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368010</id>
	<title>This..</title>
	<author>countertrolling</author>
	<datestamp>1267731480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>is their new <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5QErPDNcj4" title="youtube.com" rel="nofollow">jingle</a> [youtube.com]..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>is their new jingle [ youtube.com ] . .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>is their new jingle [youtube.com]..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31374804</id>
	<title>Re:A challenge...</title>
	<author>thePowerOfGrayskull</author>
	<datestamp>1267822620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Melodramatic much? Let's look for a moment at what the company says:<p><div class="quote"><p>When Toyota was asked by the AP to explain what exactly its recorders do collect, a company statement said Thursday that the devices record data from five seconds before until two seconds after an air bag is deployed in a crash.

The statement said information is captured about vehicle speed, the accelerator's angle, gear shift position, whether the seat belt was used and the angle of the driver's seat.</p></div><p>I understand that a large part of the real issue here is the fact that the data is *not* open -- we do presently have to take this information on trust, which is not acceptable.
</p><p>
Taking them at face value, your complaints about privacy are irrelevant.  As a software developer, my ability to debug a critical system failure FAR outweighs your self-righteous indignation over having a five second snapshot of your driving taken for any given point in time. And it's got nothing to do with your trips to Hank's Triple-X After Hours Club -- it's to do with my work, my product, and my livelihood.  You're just a casualty of unfortunate code at this point.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Melodramatic much ?
Let 's look for a moment at what the company says : When Toyota was asked by the AP to explain what exactly its recorders do collect , a company statement said Thursday that the devices record data from five seconds before until two seconds after an air bag is deployed in a crash .
The statement said information is captured about vehicle speed , the accelerator 's angle , gear shift position , whether the seat belt was used and the angle of the driver 's seat.I understand that a large part of the real issue here is the fact that the data is * not * open -- we do presently have to take this information on trust , which is not acceptable .
Taking them at face value , your complaints about privacy are irrelevant .
As a software developer , my ability to debug a critical system failure FAR outweighs your self-righteous indignation over having a five second snapshot of your driving taken for any given point in time .
And it 's got nothing to do with your trips to Hank 's Triple-X After Hours Club -- it 's to do with my work , my product , and my livelihood .
You 're just a casualty of unfortunate code at this point .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Melodramatic much?
Let's look for a moment at what the company says:When Toyota was asked by the AP to explain what exactly its recorders do collect, a company statement said Thursday that the devices record data from five seconds before until two seconds after an air bag is deployed in a crash.
The statement said information is captured about vehicle speed, the accelerator's angle, gear shift position, whether the seat belt was used and the angle of the driver's seat.I understand that a large part of the real issue here is the fact that the data is *not* open -- we do presently have to take this information on trust, which is not acceptable.
Taking them at face value, your complaints about privacy are irrelevant.
As a software developer, my ability to debug a critical system failure FAR outweighs your self-righteous indignation over having a five second snapshot of your driving taken for any given point in time.
And it's got nothing to do with your trips to Hank's Triple-X After Hours Club -- it's to do with my work, my product, and my livelihood.
You're just a casualty of unfortunate code at this point.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368132</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31369174</id>
	<title>Plain text data</title>
	<author>flyingfsck</author>
	<datestamp>1267789440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Actually, the Toyota data is not encrypted at all.  It is simply saved in plain text Hiragana...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , the Toyota data is not encrypted at all .
It is simply saved in plain text Hiragana.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, the Toyota data is not encrypted at all.
It is simply saved in plain text Hiragana...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31369878</id>
	<title>Good</title>
	<author>pydev</author>
	<datestamp>1267797720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm happy that Toyota is taking data security and privacy seriously.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm happy that Toyota is taking data security and privacy seriously .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm happy that Toyota is taking data security and privacy seriously.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31367988</id>
	<title>Uh huh</title>
	<author>TheSpoom</author>
	<datestamp>1267731300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Toyota sees only loss potentials in making an open access EDR, since more data provided in crashes means more potential liability.  Therefore, they encrypt it and make it only available by court order.</p><p>Pure business (you know, excluding the human factor as usual).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Toyota sees only loss potentials in making an open access EDR , since more data provided in crashes means more potential liability .
Therefore , they encrypt it and make it only available by court order.Pure business ( you know , excluding the human factor as usual ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Toyota sees only loss potentials in making an open access EDR, since more data provided in crashes means more potential liability.
Therefore, they encrypt it and make it only available by court order.Pure business (you know, excluding the human factor as usual).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31369740</id>
	<title>Re:A challenge...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267796400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't know about the motives of the parent AC, but a lot of people worry about privacy because they have something to hide.  In this case they don't want their vehicle to rat them out with hard facts about how they were driving in the seconds before their air bags deployed.<br> <br>
If this evidence was easily available, we might realize that our big problem with traffic accidents, injuries and deaths aren't hardware or software -- it's the driver, stupid.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know about the motives of the parent AC , but a lot of people worry about privacy because they have something to hide .
In this case they do n't want their vehicle to rat them out with hard facts about how they were driving in the seconds before their air bags deployed .
If this evidence was easily available , we might realize that our big problem with traffic accidents , injuries and deaths are n't hardware or software -- it 's the driver , stupid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know about the motives of the parent AC, but a lot of people worry about privacy because they have something to hide.
In this case they don't want their vehicle to rat them out with hard facts about how they were driving in the seconds before their air bags deployed.
If this evidence was easily available, we might realize that our big problem with traffic accidents, injuries and deaths aren't hardware or software -- it's the driver, stupid.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368132</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31370630</id>
	<title>Why fly by wire?</title>
	<author>soupforare</author>
	<datestamp>1267802820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How much is really being saved by not having linkages to the throttle body?  How many more models and manufacturers are going to be affected by funky electronic throttle controllers?  What the hell happens when the pots get dirty?</htmltext>
<tokenext>How much is really being saved by not having linkages to the throttle body ?
How many more models and manufacturers are going to be affected by funky electronic throttle controllers ?
What the hell happens when the pots get dirty ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How much is really being saved by not having linkages to the throttle body?
How many more models and manufacturers are going to be affected by funky electronic throttle controllers?
What the hell happens when the pots get dirty?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368008</id>
	<title>It could be that Toyota is just being responsible</title>
	<author>OrwellianLurker</author>
	<datestamp>1267731480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Toyota<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... generally won't allow the data to be read without a court order.</p></div><p>All it takes is a court order. So essentially the only thing slowing the investigations would be an unwilling Federal government.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Toyota ... generally wo n't allow the data to be read without a court order.All it takes is a court order .
So essentially the only thing slowing the investigations would be an unwilling Federal government .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Toyota ... generally won't allow the data to be read without a court order.All it takes is a court order.
So essentially the only thing slowing the investigations would be an unwilling Federal government.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31369642</id>
	<title>Good for the criminals</title>
	<author>shicaca</author>
	<datestamp>1267795500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I can see how this is a GOOD thing to some people, though. Thinking of the privacy concerns, obviously. If you were at fault in an accident and you had a ford/gm/etc the insurance companies would own you in a day of reviews. Now if you had a Toyota / Honda, have fun<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... delaying the game for as loooong as possible. Nice for the criminals, not for the general public in cases such as this, though.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I can see how this is a GOOD thing to some people , though .
Thinking of the privacy concerns , obviously .
If you were at fault in an accident and you had a ford/gm/etc the insurance companies would own you in a day of reviews .
Now if you had a Toyota / Honda , have fun ... delaying the game for as loooong as possible .
Nice for the criminals , not for the general public in cases such as this , though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can see how this is a GOOD thing to some people, though.
Thinking of the privacy concerns, obviously.
If you were at fault in an accident and you had a ford/gm/etc the insurance companies would own you in a day of reviews.
Now if you had a Toyota / Honda, have fun ... delaying the game for as loooong as possible.
Nice for the criminals, not for the general public in cases such as this, though.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368124</id>
	<title>Re:Uh huh</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267819260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're right.  And most of these accidents and screaming crisis victims are idiots who hit the wrong pedal.  for the most part, attempts to show these cars are flying away out of control have failed.  Yes, even with the pedal and mat recalls.  Toyota screwed up in not using Japanese Denso pedals in all their cars.  The US Pedal manufacturer was well outside spec.  This shit happens when you make stuff in China or the USA.</p><p>And a cornered animal is a dangerous animal.  Toyota is a worldwide automaker that is profitable most of the time.  They can weather this, but know for long term benefit, they have to aggressively fight for US customers now.  Zero \% financing for 5 years takes away a ton of profit, and GM has been forced to match that offer.  Unlike toyota, GM is unable to afford that kind of profit loss.</p><p>This single incident is going to add at least ten, probably far more, years to how long it will take GM to pay back her debts.  Democrat regulators and congressmen who smirk as they grind Toyota for shit GM does day in day out (they had a huge recall in February too!) are being idiots.  They have forced Toyota to make their cars much more affordable.  Even at 9\% lower sales volume last month, they will probably sell MORE cars this quarter, and GM fewer. And those cars GM sells will have far less profit.</p><p>GMAC was the primary moneymaker for GM.  Toyota just took that off the table.  Chrysler will probably have to match that or suffer even worse sales.  There are no good reactions, except for Toyota to take a big hit now in the USA that is easily absorbed by their growth in the Eastern Hemisphere.</p><p>Oh, and I am happy with a car that some plaintiff, cop, or government bureaucrat can't take my data from.  I will probably never read my black box.  I don't want anyone else too.  I don't even have an ugly ass toyota, but I appreciate their self interest matching my own here.  What's funny is that I think Chevies are the most stylish, but am so turned off by this crisis witchhunt that I'll probably buy a Honda.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're right .
And most of these accidents and screaming crisis victims are idiots who hit the wrong pedal .
for the most part , attempts to show these cars are flying away out of control have failed .
Yes , even with the pedal and mat recalls .
Toyota screwed up in not using Japanese Denso pedals in all their cars .
The US Pedal manufacturer was well outside spec .
This shit happens when you make stuff in China or the USA.And a cornered animal is a dangerous animal .
Toyota is a worldwide automaker that is profitable most of the time .
They can weather this , but know for long term benefit , they have to aggressively fight for US customers now .
Zero \ % financing for 5 years takes away a ton of profit , and GM has been forced to match that offer .
Unlike toyota , GM is unable to afford that kind of profit loss.This single incident is going to add at least ten , probably far more , years to how long it will take GM to pay back her debts .
Democrat regulators and congressmen who smirk as they grind Toyota for shit GM does day in day out ( they had a huge recall in February too !
) are being idiots .
They have forced Toyota to make their cars much more affordable .
Even at 9 \ % lower sales volume last month , they will probably sell MORE cars this quarter , and GM fewer .
And those cars GM sells will have far less profit.GMAC was the primary moneymaker for GM .
Toyota just took that off the table .
Chrysler will probably have to match that or suffer even worse sales .
There are no good reactions , except for Toyota to take a big hit now in the USA that is easily absorbed by their growth in the Eastern Hemisphere.Oh , and I am happy with a car that some plaintiff , cop , or government bureaucrat ca n't take my data from .
I will probably never read my black box .
I do n't want anyone else too .
I do n't even have an ugly ass toyota , but I appreciate their self interest matching my own here .
What 's funny is that I think Chevies are the most stylish , but am so turned off by this crisis witchhunt that I 'll probably buy a Honda .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're right.
And most of these accidents and screaming crisis victims are idiots who hit the wrong pedal.
for the most part, attempts to show these cars are flying away out of control have failed.
Yes, even with the pedal and mat recalls.
Toyota screwed up in not using Japanese Denso pedals in all their cars.
The US Pedal manufacturer was well outside spec.
This shit happens when you make stuff in China or the USA.And a cornered animal is a dangerous animal.
Toyota is a worldwide automaker that is profitable most of the time.
They can weather this, but know for long term benefit, they have to aggressively fight for US customers now.
Zero \% financing for 5 years takes away a ton of profit, and GM has been forced to match that offer.
Unlike toyota, GM is unable to afford that kind of profit loss.This single incident is going to add at least ten, probably far more, years to how long it will take GM to pay back her debts.
Democrat regulators and congressmen who smirk as they grind Toyota for shit GM does day in day out (they had a huge recall in February too!
) are being idiots.
They have forced Toyota to make their cars much more affordable.
Even at 9\% lower sales volume last month, they will probably sell MORE cars this quarter, and GM fewer.
And those cars GM sells will have far less profit.GMAC was the primary moneymaker for GM.
Toyota just took that off the table.
Chrysler will probably have to match that or suffer even worse sales.
There are no good reactions, except for Toyota to take a big hit now in the USA that is easily absorbed by their growth in the Eastern Hemisphere.Oh, and I am happy with a car that some plaintiff, cop, or government bureaucrat can't take my data from.
I will probably never read my black box.
I don't want anyone else too.
I don't even have an ugly ass toyota, but I appreciate their self interest matching my own here.
What's funny is that I think Chevies are the most stylish, but am so turned off by this crisis witchhunt that I'll probably buy a Honda.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31367988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368746</id>
	<title>Surprising</title>
	<author>theArtificial</author>
	<datestamp>1267784100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Will Toyota stop at nothing?!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Will Toyota stop at nothing ?
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Will Toyota stop at nothing?
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31371000</id>
	<title>Let me turn my black box off</title>
	<author>davidwr</author>
	<datestamp>1267804740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>However, if it is on I want to be able to read the data.</p><p>The only reason I should not be allowed to turn it off is if:</p><p>1) if I'm not the owner<br>2) if my insurance company has offered me a choice: Pay $FAIRANDREASONABLE and turn it off or pay $SOMEWHATLESS but leave it on and I take the discount.  This is similar to my choice to use an anti-theft device.</p><p>I would also make an exception that I could not legally defeat any tamper-evident technology - if I have it on, it should be tamper-evident to prevent fraud.  I could turn it off, I could tamper with it, I could load my own software, etc. but if I did, it would no longer be "certified" or usable in court.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>However , if it is on I want to be able to read the data.The only reason I should not be allowed to turn it off is if : 1 ) if I 'm not the owner2 ) if my insurance company has offered me a choice : Pay $ FAIRANDREASONABLE and turn it off or pay $ SOMEWHATLESS but leave it on and I take the discount .
This is similar to my choice to use an anti-theft device.I would also make an exception that I could not legally defeat any tamper-evident technology - if I have it on , it should be tamper-evident to prevent fraud .
I could turn it off , I could tamper with it , I could load my own software , etc .
but if I did , it would no longer be " certified " or usable in court .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>However, if it is on I want to be able to read the data.The only reason I should not be allowed to turn it off is if:1) if I'm not the owner2) if my insurance company has offered me a choice: Pay $FAIRANDREASONABLE and turn it off or pay $SOMEWHATLESS but leave it on and I take the discount.
This is similar to my choice to use an anti-theft device.I would also make an exception that I could not legally defeat any tamper-evident technology - if I have it on, it should be tamper-evident to prevent fraud.
I could turn it off, I could tamper with it, I could load my own software, etc.
but if I did, it would no longer be "certified" or usable in court.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31369226</id>
	<title>Why should the owner get the data?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267790040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's a recording device in the car intended for accident diagnosis, nothing else.  Like the cockpit voice recorder in an airplane.  If the car was equipped with a required-by-law voice recorder, and my spouse or teenager drives the car, I wouldn't be entitled to listen to their recorded conversations after the fact.  This telemetry recording thing doesn't record conversations but it's still considered private data.  It's accessible through a court order if necessary, and that's good enough.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's a recording device in the car intended for accident diagnosis , nothing else .
Like the cockpit voice recorder in an airplane .
If the car was equipped with a required-by-law voice recorder , and my spouse or teenager drives the car , I would n't be entitled to listen to their recorded conversations after the fact .
This telemetry recording thing does n't record conversations but it 's still considered private data .
It 's accessible through a court order if necessary , and that 's good enough .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's a recording device in the car intended for accident diagnosis, nothing else.
Like the cockpit voice recorder in an airplane.
If the car was equipped with a required-by-law voice recorder, and my spouse or teenager drives the car, I wouldn't be entitled to listen to their recorded conversations after the fact.
This telemetry recording thing doesn't record conversations but it's still considered private data.
It's accessible through a court order if necessary, and that's good enough.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368128</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31370450</id>
	<title>Nothing New Here</title>
	<author>gryf</author>
	<datestamp>1267801860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Until very recently it seems no manufacturer let the public into the 'black box' without a court order of some variety. In California, it was/is a legal requirement.<blockquote><div><p>A few states are joining the debate. A California law that went into effect in July 2004 requires manufacturers to provide customers with information on black boxes in cars and states that the data cannot be obtained without a court order or the owner's permission.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
See this old CNET story <a href="http://news.cnet.com/Rocky-road-for-car-black-boxes/2009-1041\_3-5604449.html" title="cnet.com" rel="nofollow">Rocky road for car 'black boxes'</a> [cnet.com].</p><p>
Toyota's lack of openess about data that imperils individual privacy is no skin off of my back. If Government Motors wants to penalize Toyota for it, perhaps it should be mentioned that mandating car electronics <em>more</em> accessible is a bad idea. Look at how Google got hacked by China.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Until very recently it seems no manufacturer let the public into the 'black box ' without a court order of some variety .
In California , it was/is a legal requirement.A few states are joining the debate .
A California law that went into effect in July 2004 requires manufacturers to provide customers with information on black boxes in cars and states that the data can not be obtained without a court order or the owner 's permission .
See this old CNET story Rocky road for car 'black boxes ' [ cnet.com ] .
Toyota 's lack of openess about data that imperils individual privacy is no skin off of my back .
If Government Motors wants to penalize Toyota for it , perhaps it should be mentioned that mandating car electronics more accessible is a bad idea .
Look at how Google got hacked by China .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Until very recently it seems no manufacturer let the public into the 'black box' without a court order of some variety.
In California, it was/is a legal requirement.A few states are joining the debate.
A California law that went into effect in July 2004 requires manufacturers to provide customers with information on black boxes in cars and states that the data cannot be obtained without a court order or the owner's permission.
See this old CNET story Rocky road for car 'black boxes' [cnet.com].
Toyota's lack of openess about data that imperils individual privacy is no skin off of my back.
If Government Motors wants to penalize Toyota for it, perhaps it should be mentioned that mandating car electronics more accessible is a bad idea.
Look at how Google got hacked by China.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31370038</id>
	<title>Ridiculous.  Force auto makers to open source it!</title>
	<author>rcb1974</author>
	<datestamp>1267799160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Back in the old days, pretty much everything was mechanical, so you could feasibly dissect your car and see how everything worked.  Now with computers, machine code, and embedded systems handling so many critical operations in your car, this has changed.  Computers are much harder and practically impossible for engineers (who don't have huge budgets and laboratories) to dissect and reverse engineer.  If the code were exposed, then it would be orders of magnitude easier for people who don't work at Toyota to figure out what is going on with unintended acceleration.  It should be clear to lawmakers that:<br> <br>
1)  All the code used in an automobiles or other system that can potentially threaten public safety should be required to be open source.  All companies need to be subject to this law, not just Toyota.  That way the code can be reviewed and studied by anyone who is interested in knowing how the systems work that they trust their lives with work.  The law should apply to software driven (or hardware like microcontrollers and FPGAs that is flashed with software) medical devices or any code whose development is funded by taxpayer dollars.  There should be some exceptions, such as software used in military applications.  Don't want the enemy to have that.  Bottom line in this case: we need to pass laws to force all automakers to publish all their code online so it can be peer reviewed by the people who use it.<br> <br>
2)  The interface to automobile computers should be a widely used standard such as USB, not some proprietary interface that only 1 laptop in the USA can use.  I should be able to just insert a USB stick in my car, wait for my car to download all the black box data, engine diagnostic codes, etc onto my USB stick in CSV (or other easily readable) files.  Then once a light on my dashboard turns off, I'll know its safe to remove my USB stick so I can open up the files on my computer.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Back in the old days , pretty much everything was mechanical , so you could feasibly dissect your car and see how everything worked .
Now with computers , machine code , and embedded systems handling so many critical operations in your car , this has changed .
Computers are much harder and practically impossible for engineers ( who do n't have huge budgets and laboratories ) to dissect and reverse engineer .
If the code were exposed , then it would be orders of magnitude easier for people who do n't work at Toyota to figure out what is going on with unintended acceleration .
It should be clear to lawmakers that : 1 ) All the code used in an automobiles or other system that can potentially threaten public safety should be required to be open source .
All companies need to be subject to this law , not just Toyota .
That way the code can be reviewed and studied by anyone who is interested in knowing how the systems work that they trust their lives with work .
The law should apply to software driven ( or hardware like microcontrollers and FPGAs that is flashed with software ) medical devices or any code whose development is funded by taxpayer dollars .
There should be some exceptions , such as software used in military applications .
Do n't want the enemy to have that .
Bottom line in this case : we need to pass laws to force all automakers to publish all their code online so it can be peer reviewed by the people who use it .
2 ) The interface to automobile computers should be a widely used standard such as USB , not some proprietary interface that only 1 laptop in the USA can use .
I should be able to just insert a USB stick in my car , wait for my car to download all the black box data , engine diagnostic codes , etc onto my USB stick in CSV ( or other easily readable ) files .
Then once a light on my dashboard turns off , I 'll know its safe to remove my USB stick so I can open up the files on my computer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back in the old days, pretty much everything was mechanical, so you could feasibly dissect your car and see how everything worked.
Now with computers, machine code, and embedded systems handling so many critical operations in your car, this has changed.
Computers are much harder and practically impossible for engineers (who don't have huge budgets and laboratories) to dissect and reverse engineer.
If the code were exposed, then it would be orders of magnitude easier for people who don't work at Toyota to figure out what is going on with unintended acceleration.
It should be clear to lawmakers that: 
1)  All the code used in an automobiles or other system that can potentially threaten public safety should be required to be open source.
All companies need to be subject to this law, not just Toyota.
That way the code can be reviewed and studied by anyone who is interested in knowing how the systems work that they trust their lives with work.
The law should apply to software driven (or hardware like microcontrollers and FPGAs that is flashed with software) medical devices or any code whose development is funded by taxpayer dollars.
There should be some exceptions, such as software used in military applications.
Don't want the enemy to have that.
Bottom line in this case: we need to pass laws to force all automakers to publish all their code online so it can be peer reviewed by the people who use it.
2)  The interface to automobile computers should be a widely used standard such as USB, not some proprietary interface that only 1 laptop in the USA can use.
I should be able to just insert a USB stick in my car, wait for my car to download all the black box data, engine diagnostic codes, etc onto my USB stick in CSV (or other easily readable) files.
Then once a light on my dashboard turns off, I'll know its safe to remove my USB stick so I can open up the files on my computer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31367888</id>
	<title>A challenge...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267729980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wouldn't it be grand if the guys who hacked <a href="https//games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/03/05/027258" title="slashdot.org">Ubisoft's latest game</a> [slashdot.org] took on this challenge instead?</p><p>And it would be covered in extra-special awesomesauce to see the code posted to SourceForge.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Would n't it be grand if the guys who hacked Ubisoft 's latest game [ slashdot.org ] took on this challenge instead ? And it would be covered in extra-special awesomesauce to see the code posted to SourceForge .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wouldn't it be grand if the guys who hacked Ubisoft's latest game [slashdot.org] took on this challenge instead?And it would be covered in extra-special awesomesauce to see the code posted to SourceForge.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31369276</id>
	<title>Re:Time must have changed.</title>
	<author>Registered Coward v2</author>
	<datestamp>1267790940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It seems like it was only yesterday when people were complaining that the black box data was there in the first place. Then came along the complaints on how it was being used against people in courts and in accident investigations. Then the complaint was that only certain people could get the information and you couldn't get it to clear your name or anything- even in one case where I believe the prosecutor got the information and decided it was worthless and tossed it (may be wrong on that).</p><p>Now, it seems that everything happening that would have caused a complaint is good and those not allowing it to happen is bad. Go figure.</p></div><p>IANAL, but isn't it the case, in the US at least, that a prosecutor has to provide the defense with all the evidence pertaining to the case in their possession?  They then would have to provide any black box data they had; otherwise they'd be withholding evidence.</p><p>In a civil case you'd probably be able to get it through discovery.</p><p>As a side note; I wonder if Toyota could build a small device to plug in like on OBDC Code Reader,and let it record reams of data, say 3 months worth; that can then be used to troubleshoot the problem?  Offer owners a deal - such a s a free oil change every time they bring in the car to get the device swapped?  That way, they'd have real world data to analyze.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It seems like it was only yesterday when people were complaining that the black box data was there in the first place .
Then came along the complaints on how it was being used against people in courts and in accident investigations .
Then the complaint was that only certain people could get the information and you could n't get it to clear your name or anything- even in one case where I believe the prosecutor got the information and decided it was worthless and tossed it ( may be wrong on that ) .Now , it seems that everything happening that would have caused a complaint is good and those not allowing it to happen is bad .
Go figure.IANAL , but is n't it the case , in the US at least , that a prosecutor has to provide the defense with all the evidence pertaining to the case in their possession ?
They then would have to provide any black box data they had ; otherwise they 'd be withholding evidence.In a civil case you 'd probably be able to get it through discovery.As a side note ; I wonder if Toyota could build a small device to plug in like on OBDC Code Reader,and let it record reams of data , say 3 months worth ; that can then be used to troubleshoot the problem ?
Offer owners a deal - such a s a free oil change every time they bring in the car to get the device swapped ?
That way , they 'd have real world data to analyze .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It seems like it was only yesterday when people were complaining that the black box data was there in the first place.
Then came along the complaints on how it was being used against people in courts and in accident investigations.
Then the complaint was that only certain people could get the information and you couldn't get it to clear your name or anything- even in one case where I believe the prosecutor got the information and decided it was worthless and tossed it (may be wrong on that).Now, it seems that everything happening that would have caused a complaint is good and those not allowing it to happen is bad.
Go figure.IANAL, but isn't it the case, in the US at least, that a prosecutor has to provide the defense with all the evidence pertaining to the case in their possession?
They then would have to provide any black box data they had; otherwise they'd be withholding evidence.In a civil case you'd probably be able to get it through discovery.As a side note; I wonder if Toyota could build a small device to plug in like on OBDC Code Reader,and let it record reams of data, say 3 months worth; that can then be used to troubleshoot the problem?
Offer owners a deal - such a s a free oil change every time they bring in the car to get the device swapped?
That way, they'd have real world data to analyze.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31367980</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31372022</id>
	<title>It's a military thing.</title>
	<author>Oxford\_Comma\_Lover</author>
	<datestamp>1267809540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>&gt; But, today, with the US government being the largest shareholder in GM, I would bet that life for Toyota is going to get really bad.</i></p><p>Let's be honest.  The elephant in the room during the GM buyout was the production capacity.  The United States cannot afford to lose the production capacity of GM, because in the event of a full scale sustained conventional war we would need its production capacity.  The government buyout wasn't only about keeping money in Detroit or helping other GM stockholders or even the fact that the government often buys GM--it was absolutely necessary from the standpoint of defense.  That it was done without bringing GM into the military-industrial complex is a good thing.</p><p>On a related issue, we should be treating Detroit like it got hit with Katrina.  It's probably in worse shape than New Orleans at this point.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; But , today , with the US government being the largest shareholder in GM , I would bet that life for Toyota is going to get really bad.Let 's be honest .
The elephant in the room during the GM buyout was the production capacity .
The United States can not afford to lose the production capacity of GM , because in the event of a full scale sustained conventional war we would need its production capacity .
The government buyout was n't only about keeping money in Detroit or helping other GM stockholders or even the fact that the government often buys GM--it was absolutely necessary from the standpoint of defense .
That it was done without bringing GM into the military-industrial complex is a good thing.On a related issue , we should be treating Detroit like it got hit with Katrina .
It 's probably in worse shape than New Orleans at this point .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; But, today, with the US government being the largest shareholder in GM, I would bet that life for Toyota is going to get really bad.Let's be honest.
The elephant in the room during the GM buyout was the production capacity.
The United States cannot afford to lose the production capacity of GM, because in the event of a full scale sustained conventional war we would need its production capacity.
The government buyout wasn't only about keeping money in Detroit or helping other GM stockholders or even the fact that the government often buys GM--it was absolutely necessary from the standpoint of defense.
That it was done without bringing GM into the military-industrial complex is a good thing.On a related issue, we should be treating Detroit like it got hit with Katrina.
It's probably in worse shape than New Orleans at this point.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31371984</id>
	<title>Simple fix, No need for Hacking/Cracking...</title>
	<author>s0litaire</author>
	<datestamp>1267809300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><tt>1) Learn to drive "Stick" / "Manual Clutch"<br>2) Toyota starts a free "Kamikaze" exchange program<br>3) Bring in your faulty Automatic Gearbox car for a nice new Stick-shift one.<br>4) No more runaway cards with sticking Gas peddles!!!<br>5) ???<br>6) Profit (Well live till you get home anyway)<br><br>Problem solved<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D</tt></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 ) Learn to drive " Stick " / " Manual Clutch " 2 ) Toyota starts a free " Kamikaze " exchange program3 ) Bring in your faulty Automatic Gearbox car for a nice new Stick-shift one.4 ) No more runaway cards with sticking Gas peddles ! !
! 5 ) ? ?
? 6 ) Profit ( Well live till you get home anyway ) Problem solved : D</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1) Learn to drive "Stick" / "Manual Clutch"2) Toyota starts a free "Kamikaze" exchange program3) Bring in your faulty Automatic Gearbox car for a nice new Stick-shift one.4) No more runaway cards with sticking Gas peddles!!
!5) ??
?6) Profit (Well live till you get home anyway)Problem solved :D</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31371364</id>
	<title>OBDII - On Board Diagnostics</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267806480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On board diagnostics or OBD II is what every car (AFAIK) uses for it's control system.  It's CANBUS at it's heart and it's an open standard that is easily downloaded from the internet.  Even if black-box data is not part of the OBD spec, certainly everything that goes on the wire is.  I would think an enterprising hacker could make good use of the OBD spec.</p><p>Regards,<br>Jason C. Wells</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On board diagnostics or OBD II is what every car ( AFAIK ) uses for it 's control system .
It 's CANBUS at it 's heart and it 's an open standard that is easily downloaded from the internet .
Even if black-box data is not part of the OBD spec , certainly everything that goes on the wire is .
I would think an enterprising hacker could make good use of the OBD spec.Regards,Jason C. Wells</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On board diagnostics or OBD II is what every car (AFAIK) uses for it's control system.
It's CANBUS at it's heart and it's an open standard that is easily downloaded from the internet.
Even if black-box data is not part of the OBD spec, certainly everything that goes on the wire is.
I would think an enterprising hacker could make good use of the OBD spec.Regards,Jason C. Wells</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31382424</id>
	<title>Re:It could be that Toyota is just being responsib</title>
	<author>Radio\_active\_cgb</author>
	<datestamp>1267906500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't think so. With just one laptop (and likely its operator) covering the the US (North America?), it would take a day or two to bring the laptop to the vehicle. Multiply by the (likely increasing) number of court orders, and now you're dealing with delays just getting the data read out. This assumes the the data was even stored for later retrieval (and I suspect it wasn't).</p><p>The way the story initially broke, I think they've been aware of their unintended acceleration problems for a while, and was trying to resolve them quietly. They were successful until one of their executives blundered by admitting that they had a problem, then it blew up in their face. Now they're being forced into allocating more resources to deal with existing engineering problems, and additional public relations issues.</p><p>I think Toyota just didn't see the potential need for greater post-development support, or they would have been better prepared.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't think so .
With just one laptop ( and likely its operator ) covering the the US ( North America ?
) , it would take a day or two to bring the laptop to the vehicle .
Multiply by the ( likely increasing ) number of court orders , and now you 're dealing with delays just getting the data read out .
This assumes the the data was even stored for later retrieval ( and I suspect it was n't ) .The way the story initially broke , I think they 've been aware of their unintended acceleration problems for a while , and was trying to resolve them quietly .
They were successful until one of their executives blundered by admitting that they had a problem , then it blew up in their face .
Now they 're being forced into allocating more resources to deal with existing engineering problems , and additional public relations issues.I think Toyota just did n't see the potential need for greater post-development support , or they would have been better prepared .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't think so.
With just one laptop (and likely its operator) covering the the US (North America?
), it would take a day or two to bring the laptop to the vehicle.
Multiply by the (likely increasing) number of court orders, and now you're dealing with delays just getting the data read out.
This assumes the the data was even stored for later retrieval (and I suspect it wasn't).The way the story initially broke, I think they've been aware of their unintended acceleration problems for a while, and was trying to resolve them quietly.
They were successful until one of their executives blundered by admitting that they had a problem, then it blew up in their face.
Now they're being forced into allocating more resources to deal with existing engineering problems, and additional public relations issues.I think Toyota just didn't see the potential need for greater post-development support, or they would have been better prepared.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31367990</id>
	<title>Re:A challenge...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267731300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Wouldn't it be grand if the guys who hacked Ubisoft's latest game [slashdot.org] took on this challenge instead?</p></div><p>It would be nice, but it's impossible. They'd have to be some sort of elite uber-hacker to even attempt such a challenge.</p><p>Absolutely impossible.</p><p>Not a hope in hell.</p><p>Can't be done.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Would n't it be grand if the guys who hacked Ubisoft 's latest game [ slashdot.org ] took on this challenge instead ? It would be nice , but it 's impossible .
They 'd have to be some sort of elite uber-hacker to even attempt such a challenge.Absolutely impossible.Not a hope in hell.Ca n't be done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wouldn't it be grand if the guys who hacked Ubisoft's latest game [slashdot.org] took on this challenge instead?It would be nice, but it's impossible.
They'd have to be some sort of elite uber-hacker to even attempt such a challenge.Absolutely impossible.Not a hope in hell.Can't be done.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31367888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368122</id>
	<title>Re:Let's nip this Toyota bashing in the bud</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267819260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>You know what? When all these "sudden recalls" came out from Toyota once their acceleration issue came to light in the media, it indicates to me one thing.<br>
Toyota has been holding back a lot of recalls at the expense of customer safety.<br>
So champion Toyota all you want, and come up with a conspiracy theory that the USA gov is behind this whole thing.<br>
It indicates to me Toyota was playing with fire and now they got burned.  Nothing more, nothing less.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You know what ?
When all these " sudden recalls " came out from Toyota once their acceleration issue came to light in the media , it indicates to me one thing .
Toyota has been holding back a lot of recalls at the expense of customer safety .
So champion Toyota all you want , and come up with a conspiracy theory that the USA gov is behind this whole thing .
It indicates to me Toyota was playing with fire and now they got burned .
Nothing more , nothing less .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know what?
When all these "sudden recalls" came out from Toyota once their acceleration issue came to light in the media, it indicates to me one thing.
Toyota has been holding back a lot of recalls at the expense of customer safety.
So champion Toyota all you want, and come up with a conspiracy theory that the USA gov is behind this whole thing.
It indicates to me Toyota was playing with fire and now they got burned.
Nothing more, nothing less.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31369284</id>
	<title>Re:Uh huh</title>
	<author>tehcyder</author>
	<datestamp>1267791060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Toyota sees only loss potentials in making an open access EDR, since more data provided in crashes means more potential liability. Therefore, they encrypt it and make it only available by court order.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
So you think that this information should be freely available?
<br>
<br>
As the information is only for use in a court case, it seems perfectly sensible to require a court order to access it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Toyota sees only loss potentials in making an open access EDR , since more data provided in crashes means more potential liability .
Therefore , they encrypt it and make it only available by court order .
So you think that this information should be freely available ?
As the information is only for use in a court case , it seems perfectly sensible to require a court order to access it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Toyota sees only loss potentials in making an open access EDR, since more data provided in crashes means more potential liability.
Therefore, they encrypt it and make it only available by court order.
So you think that this information should be freely available?
As the information is only for use in a court case, it seems perfectly sensible to require a court order to access it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31367988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368744</id>
	<title>Anyone</title>
	<author>G4Cube</author>
	<datestamp>1267784100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>got a crashed Prius to hack? If we can break DRM in a day.....</htmltext>
<tokenext>got a crashed Prius to hack ?
If we can break DRM in a day.... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>got a crashed Prius to hack?
If we can break DRM in a day.....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368808</id>
	<title>DMCA Irony</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267784940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So now Toyoa is being "accused" for using propietary software. It wasn't a long time ago when I read about some US association to declare open software "communism" and "hazardous to capitalism".</p><p>I would love to see a court case where Toyota will sue National Highway Traffic Safety Administration due violating DMCA when trying to pry the data out from the Toyota black boxes.</p><p>That'd be irony.</p><p>BTW: My sympathies are on victims' and their families' side. I am sorry for their loss.</p><p>BTW2: And in my opinion there should be an international law for making black boxes both obligatory and open format (not even tied to single company solutions like Bosch).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So now Toyoa is being " accused " for using propietary software .
It was n't a long time ago when I read about some US association to declare open software " communism " and " hazardous to capitalism " .I would love to see a court case where Toyota will sue National Highway Traffic Safety Administration due violating DMCA when trying to pry the data out from the Toyota black boxes.That 'd be irony.BTW : My sympathies are on victims ' and their families ' side .
I am sorry for their loss.BTW2 : And in my opinion there should be an international law for making black boxes both obligatory and open format ( not even tied to single company solutions like Bosch ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So now Toyoa is being "accused" for using propietary software.
It wasn't a long time ago when I read about some US association to declare open software "communism" and "hazardous to capitalism".I would love to see a court case where Toyota will sue National Highway Traffic Safety Administration due violating DMCA when trying to pry the data out from the Toyota black boxes.That'd be irony.BTW: My sympathies are on victims' and their families' side.
I am sorry for their loss.BTW2: And in my opinion there should be an international law for making black boxes both obligatory and open format (not even tied to single company solutions like Bosch).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368112</id>
	<title>Chill out</title>
	<author>KamuZ</author>
	<datestamp>1267732740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Chill out, they only need a court order and seems the USA Federal Government is always good at giving these ones away.</p><p>No need to "hack" the box or anything like it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Chill out , they only need a court order and seems the USA Federal Government is always good at giving these ones away.No need to " hack " the box or anything like it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Chill out, they only need a court order and seems the USA Federal Government is always good at giving these ones away.No need to "hack" the box or anything like it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31367980</id>
	<title>Time must have changed.</title>
	<author>sumdumass</author>
	<datestamp>1267731060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It seems like it was only yesterday when people were complaining that the black box data was there in the first place. Then came along the complaints on how it was being used against people in courts and in accident investigations. Then the complaint was that only certain people could get the information and you couldn't get it to clear your name or anything- even in one case where I believe the prosecutor got the information and decided it was worthless and tossed it (may be wrong on that).</p><p>Now, it seems that everything happening that would have caused a complaint is good and those not allowing it to happen is bad. Go figure.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It seems like it was only yesterday when people were complaining that the black box data was there in the first place .
Then came along the complaints on how it was being used against people in courts and in accident investigations .
Then the complaint was that only certain people could get the information and you could n't get it to clear your name or anything- even in one case where I believe the prosecutor got the information and decided it was worthless and tossed it ( may be wrong on that ) .Now , it seems that everything happening that would have caused a complaint is good and those not allowing it to happen is bad .
Go figure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It seems like it was only yesterday when people were complaining that the black box data was there in the first place.
Then came along the complaints on how it was being used against people in courts and in accident investigations.
Then the complaint was that only certain people could get the information and you couldn't get it to clear your name or anything- even in one case where I believe the prosecutor got the information and decided it was worthless and tossed it (may be wrong on that).Now, it seems that everything happening that would have caused a complaint is good and those not allowing it to happen is bad.
Go figure.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31371288</id>
	<title>After market chips</title>
	<author>griffinme</author>
	<datestamp>1267806120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe I am confused. Hasn't this already been done by the after market chip makers?</p><p>
&nbsp; <a href="http://www.performancechipsdirect.com/" title="performanc...direct.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.performancechipsdirect.com/</a> [performanc...direct.com]  Just one of many makers I found.</p><p>Car nuts have been hacking cars much longer then hackers have been hacking software.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe I am confused .
Has n't this already been done by the after market chip makers ?
  http : //www.performancechipsdirect.com/ [ performanc...direct.com ] Just one of many makers I found.Car nuts have been hacking cars much longer then hackers have been hacking software .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe I am confused.
Hasn't this already been done by the after market chip makers?
  http://www.performancechipsdirect.com/ [performanc...direct.com]  Just one of many makers I found.Car nuts have been hacking cars much longer then hackers have been hacking software.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31371484</id>
	<title>Re:Let's nip this Toyota bashing in the bud</title>
	<author>TubeSteak</author>
	<datestamp>1267807020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Toyota has been holding back a lot of recalls at the expense of customer safety.</p></div><p> <a href="http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/recallmonthlyreports.cfm" title="dot.gov">http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/recallmonthlyreports.cfm</a> [dot.gov]<br>I can't wait to see the February report.</p><p>Car companies have been issuing/expanding recalls (~500K vehicles) recently and mostly counting on the fact that since Toyota is in the news, they won't be.</p><p>I also love how Chevrolet/Chrysler/Dodge seem to be buying Ads on Google related to the keyword "recall".<br>/I also never realized how many recalls there are for motorcycles.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Toyota has been holding back a lot of recalls at the expense of customer safety .
http : //www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/recallmonthlyreports.cfm [ dot.gov ] I ca n't wait to see the February report.Car companies have been issuing/expanding recalls ( ~ 500K vehicles ) recently and mostly counting on the fact that since Toyota is in the news , they wo n't be.I also love how Chevrolet/Chrysler/Dodge seem to be buying Ads on Google related to the keyword " recall " ./I also never realized how many recalls there are for motorcycles .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Toyota has been holding back a lot of recalls at the expense of customer safety.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/recallmonthlyreports.cfm [dot.gov]I can't wait to see the February report.Car companies have been issuing/expanding recalls (~500K vehicles) recently and mostly counting on the fact that since Toyota is in the news, they won't be.I also love how Chevrolet/Chrysler/Dodge seem to be buying Ads on Google related to the keyword "recall"./I also never realized how many recalls there are for motorcycles.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368122</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31371986</id>
	<title>re: black boxes and privacy</title>
	<author>King\_TJ</author>
	<datestamp>1267809300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Initially, these automobile black boxes weren't even intended for use as "accident scene reconstruction aids".  They started out as equipment the auto makers installed for their own internal use.  (It makes a useful tool for their engineers and quality people to examine post-crash data. EG. The speed a car was traveling at time of impact, to see if their "5MPH bumper" was really holding up as intended at the rated speed.)  Like most things though, as soon as people figured out they were able to collect and store this data, their eyes lit up and they all wanted a piece of it for their own purposes (government, lawyers, car insurance companies, etc.).</p><p>Now, I'm pretty sure this will pan out in the end with a federal govt. mandated "standard" for black boxes for ALL cars and trucks sold in the country, with a list of required data they must keep and a length of time they must snapshot all of it.  (And given today's government, I think it's safe to say they'll throw in a new law, for good measure, that makes it a serious crime to tamper with the box or disable it.)</p><p>To be honest, yes, I think Toyota was hiding some information in some of these past court cases.  They've said too many inconsistent things about the data they supposedly do or don't collect for me to believe their black boxes were changed around that often, or failed to collect obviously relevant data they claimed they weren't collecting at that time.)  But like the O.P. said, all of this is just "smoke and mirrors" over the REAL issue of consumer privacy.</p><p>Reality is, folks:  No matter WHAT some hidden recorder box captures in your vehicle as you drive, if the car has a serious design flaw and something goes wrong, people get injured or DIE.  No black box in a car has EVER saved a person's life in an accident.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Initially , these automobile black boxes were n't even intended for use as " accident scene reconstruction aids " .
They started out as equipment the auto makers installed for their own internal use .
( It makes a useful tool for their engineers and quality people to examine post-crash data .
EG. The speed a car was traveling at time of impact , to see if their " 5MPH bumper " was really holding up as intended at the rated speed .
) Like most things though , as soon as people figured out they were able to collect and store this data , their eyes lit up and they all wanted a piece of it for their own purposes ( government , lawyers , car insurance companies , etc .
) .Now , I 'm pretty sure this will pan out in the end with a federal govt .
mandated " standard " for black boxes for ALL cars and trucks sold in the country , with a list of required data they must keep and a length of time they must snapshot all of it .
( And given today 's government , I think it 's safe to say they 'll throw in a new law , for good measure , that makes it a serious crime to tamper with the box or disable it .
) To be honest , yes , I think Toyota was hiding some information in some of these past court cases .
They 've said too many inconsistent things about the data they supposedly do or do n't collect for me to believe their black boxes were changed around that often , or failed to collect obviously relevant data they claimed they were n't collecting at that time .
) But like the O.P .
said , all of this is just " smoke and mirrors " over the REAL issue of consumer privacy.Reality is , folks : No matter WHAT some hidden recorder box captures in your vehicle as you drive , if the car has a serious design flaw and something goes wrong , people get injured or DIE .
No black box in a car has EVER saved a person 's life in an accident .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Initially, these automobile black boxes weren't even intended for use as "accident scene reconstruction aids".
They started out as equipment the auto makers installed for their own internal use.
(It makes a useful tool for their engineers and quality people to examine post-crash data.
EG. The speed a car was traveling at time of impact, to see if their "5MPH bumper" was really holding up as intended at the rated speed.
)  Like most things though, as soon as people figured out they were able to collect and store this data, their eyes lit up and they all wanted a piece of it for their own purposes (government, lawyers, car insurance companies, etc.
).Now, I'm pretty sure this will pan out in the end with a federal govt.
mandated "standard" for black boxes for ALL cars and trucks sold in the country, with a list of required data they must keep and a length of time they must snapshot all of it.
(And given today's government, I think it's safe to say they'll throw in a new law, for good measure, that makes it a serious crime to tamper with the box or disable it.
)To be honest, yes, I think Toyota was hiding some information in some of these past court cases.
They've said too many inconsistent things about the data they supposedly do or don't collect for me to believe their black boxes were changed around that often, or failed to collect obviously relevant data they claimed they weren't collecting at that time.
)  But like the O.P.
said, all of this is just "smoke and mirrors" over the REAL issue of consumer privacy.Reality is, folks:  No matter WHAT some hidden recorder box captures in your vehicle as you drive, if the car has a serious design flaw and something goes wrong, people get injured or DIE.
No black box in a car has EVER saved a person's life in an accident.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368132</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31376192</id>
	<title>Testify</title>
	<author>not\_hylas( )</author>
	<datestamp>1267787040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You realize, I hope, that your car will testify against you in court.<br>Don't piss it off - it WILL Rick-roll your ass.</p><p>See: On Star</p><p><a href="http://www.onstar.com/us\_english/jsp/equip\_vehicles/current\_vehicles.jsp" title="onstar.com">http://www.onstar.com/us\_english/jsp/equip\_vehicles/current\_vehicles.jsp</a> [onstar.com]</p><p>Y'all like that commercial where On Star shuts your motor off and allow the Police to have their way with the driver?<br>(it's in the context of a stolen car)<br>Can't wait for the first person mistakenly tazed to death for blowing by a cruiser.<br>Misuse of this will soon be news.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You realize , I hope , that your car will testify against you in court.Do n't piss it off - it WILL Rick-roll your ass.See : On Starhttp : //www.onstar.com/us \ _english/jsp/equip \ _vehicles/current \ _vehicles.jsp [ onstar.com ] Y'all like that commercial where On Star shuts your motor off and allow the Police to have their way with the driver ?
( it 's in the context of a stolen car ) Ca n't wait for the first person mistakenly tazed to death for blowing by a cruiser.Misuse of this will soon be news .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You realize, I hope, that your car will testify against you in court.Don't piss it off - it WILL Rick-roll your ass.See: On Starhttp://www.onstar.com/us\_english/jsp/equip\_vehicles/current\_vehicles.jsp [onstar.com]Y'all like that commercial where On Star shuts your motor off and allow the Police to have their way with the driver?
(it's in the context of a stolen car)Can't wait for the first person mistakenly tazed to death for blowing by a cruiser.Misuse of this will soon be news.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368182</id>
	<title>Re:Let's nip this Toyota bashing in the bud</title>
	<author>DigiShaman</author>
	<datestamp>1267819860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>with the US government being the largest shareholder in GM, I would bet that life for Toyota is going to get really bad.</i></p><p>Toyota screwed up big time, for sure. But make no mistake about it. These hearings on Toyota were aimed at one thing and one thing only. To make them look bad so our Federal Gov can continue to capture the UAW votes by bolstering GM sales.</p><p>Now you tell me? How fucked up is <i>that</i>?!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>with the US government being the largest shareholder in GM , I would bet that life for Toyota is going to get really bad.Toyota screwed up big time , for sure .
But make no mistake about it .
These hearings on Toyota were aimed at one thing and one thing only .
To make them look bad so our Federal Gov can continue to capture the UAW votes by bolstering GM sales.Now you tell me ?
How fucked up is that ?
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>with the US government being the largest shareholder in GM, I would bet that life for Toyota is going to get really bad.Toyota screwed up big time, for sure.
But make no mistake about it.
These hearings on Toyota were aimed at one thing and one thing only.
To make them look bad so our Federal Gov can continue to capture the UAW votes by bolstering GM sales.Now you tell me?
How fucked up is that?
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31371962</id>
	<title>Re:Let's nip this Toyota bashing in the bud</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1267809180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nice antiamerican, antiunion rant there, buddy, but <a href="http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/cartruck2006.cfm" title="uaw.org">UAW</a> [uaw.org] workers work for Toyota. From the supplied link:</p><blockquote><div><p>The Toyota Corolla, for example, is made in the United States by UAW members, but the Canadian model is made in a nonunion plant and other models are imported from a third country. To be sure you have a union-made vehicle, buy one of the vehicles on this list.</p></div></blockquote><p>Toyota workers unionized because they were being screwed over by Toyota, which is the only reason to unionize. You can thank unions for the five day work week, paid vacations, eight hour days, and absence of sweatshops.</p><p>I'm not in the UAW, but I am a card-carrying member of a labor union. The stockholders of my employer's company bargain collectively, why shouldn't I? The company that bargains with you for a contract has lawyers, and it's not feasable for every employee to hire a lawyer to look over the cotract. With numbers come strength. You alone are no match for an army of stockholders who employ an army of lawyers.</p><p>If you have an asshole boss (luckily I have a good boss) you REALLY need a union.</p><p>BTW, I'm eligible for a pension in a couple of years, thanks to my union. Anybody who works for a living who is anti-union* is insane.</p><p>* Unless they are a member of the Teamsters; that union is worse than useless.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Nice antiamerican , antiunion rant there , buddy , but UAW [ uaw.org ] workers work for Toyota .
From the supplied link : The Toyota Corolla , for example , is made in the United States by UAW members , but the Canadian model is made in a nonunion plant and other models are imported from a third country .
To be sure you have a union-made vehicle , buy one of the vehicles on this list.Toyota workers unionized because they were being screwed over by Toyota , which is the only reason to unionize .
You can thank unions for the five day work week , paid vacations , eight hour days , and absence of sweatshops.I 'm not in the UAW , but I am a card-carrying member of a labor union .
The stockholders of my employer 's company bargain collectively , why should n't I ?
The company that bargains with you for a contract has lawyers , and it 's not feasable for every employee to hire a lawyer to look over the cotract .
With numbers come strength .
You alone are no match for an army of stockholders who employ an army of lawyers.If you have an asshole boss ( luckily I have a good boss ) you REALLY need a union.BTW , I 'm eligible for a pension in a couple of years , thanks to my union .
Anybody who works for a living who is anti-union * is insane .
* Unless they are a member of the Teamsters ; that union is worse than useless .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nice antiamerican, antiunion rant there, buddy, but UAW [uaw.org] workers work for Toyota.
From the supplied link:The Toyota Corolla, for example, is made in the United States by UAW members, but the Canadian model is made in a nonunion plant and other models are imported from a third country.
To be sure you have a union-made vehicle, buy one of the vehicles on this list.Toyota workers unionized because they were being screwed over by Toyota, which is the only reason to unionize.
You can thank unions for the five day work week, paid vacations, eight hour days, and absence of sweatshops.I'm not in the UAW, but I am a card-carrying member of a labor union.
The stockholders of my employer's company bargain collectively, why shouldn't I?
The company that bargains with you for a contract has lawyers, and it's not feasable for every employee to hire a lawyer to look over the cotract.
With numbers come strength.
You alone are no match for an army of stockholders who employ an army of lawyers.If you have an asshole boss (luckily I have a good boss) you REALLY need a union.BTW, I'm eligible for a pension in a couple of years, thanks to my union.
Anybody who works for a living who is anti-union* is insane.
* Unless they are a member of the Teamsters; that union is worse than useless.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368182</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31369698</id>
	<title>Re:A challenge...</title>
	<author>Idbar</author>
	<datestamp>1267795920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have mixed feelings here. Since black boxes are a reality in every car, for the sake of privacy, I rather have one the it's not that much open to anyone</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have mixed feelings here .
Since black boxes are a reality in every car , for the sake of privacy , I rather have one the it 's not that much open to anyone</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have mixed feelings here.
Since black boxes are a reality in every car, for the sake of privacy, I rather have one the it's not that much open to anyone</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368132</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368688</id>
	<title>FUD</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267783260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Can we stop with the boring Toyota FUD articles and get back to being Slashdot? This is getting annoying. Thanks!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Can we stop with the boring Toyota FUD articles and get back to being Slashdot ?
This is getting annoying .
Thanks !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can we stop with the boring Toyota FUD articles and get back to being Slashdot?
This is getting annoying.
Thanks!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31371654</id>
	<title>Re:Let's nip this Toyota bashing in the bud</title>
	<author>swordgeek</author>
	<datestamp>1267807800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Even more than we generally realise, since the UAW builds Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, and so forth in the US--but still demonize them as 'foreign devil' cars.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Even more than we generally realise , since the UAW builds Toyotas , Hondas , Nissans , and so forth in the US--but still demonize them as 'foreign devil ' cars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even more than we generally realise, since the UAW builds Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, and so forth in the US--but still demonize them as 'foreign devil' cars.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_05_0241241.31368182</parent>
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