<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_02_0135238</id>
	<title>Scalpers Earned $25M Gaming Online Ticket Sellers</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1267525380000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>SeattleGameboy writes <i>"An indictment has been issued for online ticket brokers known as 'Wiseguy Tickets and Seats of San Francisco.' From 2002 to 2009, they used bots, server farms, and CAPTCHA hacking to <a href="http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/03/wiseguys-indicted/">buy vast number of premium tickets</a> (Springsteen, Miley Cyrus, NFL, MLB playoffs, etc.) and made $25 million in profits. 'They wrote a script that impersonated users trying to access Facebook, and downloaded hundreds of thousands of possible CAPTCHA challenges from reCAPTCHA. They identified the file ID of each CAPTCHA challenge and created a database of CAPTCHA "answers" to correspond to each ID. The bot would then identify the file ID of a challenge at Ticketmaster and feed back the corresponding answer. The bot also mimicked human behavior by occasionally making mistakes in typing the answer, the authorities said.' I guess you can break any system like CAPTCHA if you want it badly enough."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>SeattleGameboy writes " An indictment has been issued for online ticket brokers known as 'Wiseguy Tickets and Seats of San Francisco .
' From 2002 to 2009 , they used bots , server farms , and CAPTCHA hacking to buy vast number of premium tickets ( Springsteen , Miley Cyrus , NFL , MLB playoffs , etc .
) and made $ 25 million in profits .
'They wrote a script that impersonated users trying to access Facebook , and downloaded hundreds of thousands of possible CAPTCHA challenges from reCAPTCHA .
They identified the file ID of each CAPTCHA challenge and created a database of CAPTCHA " answers " to correspond to each ID .
The bot would then identify the file ID of a challenge at Ticketmaster and feed back the corresponding answer .
The bot also mimicked human behavior by occasionally making mistakes in typing the answer , the authorities said .
' I guess you can break any system like CAPTCHA if you want it badly enough .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>SeattleGameboy writes "An indictment has been issued for online ticket brokers known as 'Wiseguy Tickets and Seats of San Francisco.
' From 2002 to 2009, they used bots, server farms, and CAPTCHA hacking to buy vast number of premium tickets (Springsteen, Miley Cyrus, NFL, MLB playoffs, etc.
) and made $25 million in profits.
'They wrote a script that impersonated users trying to access Facebook, and downloaded hundreds of thousands of possible CAPTCHA challenges from reCAPTCHA.
They identified the file ID of each CAPTCHA challenge and created a database of CAPTCHA "answers" to correspond to each ID.
The bot would then identify the file ID of a challenge at Ticketmaster and feed back the corresponding answer.
The bot also mimicked human behavior by occasionally making mistakes in typing the answer, the authorities said.
' I guess you can break any system like CAPTCHA if you want it badly enough.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328976</id>
	<title>WHo is at fault....both of course.</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1267540860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you leave the door open, then you are stupid for letting in the flies, if you leave the screendoor closed but the main door open, you are stupid in thinking it will be enough to stop a robber, and if you only use a metal plated door, you are stupid in thinking it will stop the terminator. CAPTCHAs have never really worked, even to the new image and text combo ones, i saw that came close once, but it was based on a few QA style system, so not 1 or 2 but 3 or 4 questions about the person just like when you call a phone bank service.</p><p>Anyways, the best way to really get security is with the secureid system, i have used and see its enormous advantage, the ID switches every so often, so even if you know the main password, you need the id to add the last part to concatenate to the rest. However, how many people log unto a website are able to have a system like that that can be verified other then companies giving their employees these. In this situation, I would say, make ticket sales phone based only. If this is something that is time sensitive and that in order to avoid one guy getting all the tickets based on a software that runs, then make it phone based only.</p><p>If you have a website ECommerce site, and it is used to sell products, the person logging to buy up all your products only makes you more money, but tickets is not in the same league as let's say buying a laptop or iphone off the internet. People are not too lazy that calling by phone will get them a secured ticket, but then again it would fall on ticketmaster to handle to cost of the phone lines...<br>which is something they want to avoid, unless they invest almost the same amount in R&amp;D for a better system then what they got...either way, I guess I wont be going to see Metallica anytime soon.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you leave the door open , then you are stupid for letting in the flies , if you leave the screendoor closed but the main door open , you are stupid in thinking it will be enough to stop a robber , and if you only use a metal plated door , you are stupid in thinking it will stop the terminator .
CAPTCHAs have never really worked , even to the new image and text combo ones , i saw that came close once , but it was based on a few QA style system , so not 1 or 2 but 3 or 4 questions about the person just like when you call a phone bank service.Anyways , the best way to really get security is with the secureid system , i have used and see its enormous advantage , the ID switches every so often , so even if you know the main password , you need the id to add the last part to concatenate to the rest .
However , how many people log unto a website are able to have a system like that that can be verified other then companies giving their employees these .
In this situation , I would say , make ticket sales phone based only .
If this is something that is time sensitive and that in order to avoid one guy getting all the tickets based on a software that runs , then make it phone based only.If you have a website ECommerce site , and it is used to sell products , the person logging to buy up all your products only makes you more money , but tickets is not in the same league as let 's say buying a laptop or iphone off the internet .
People are not too lazy that calling by phone will get them a secured ticket , but then again it would fall on ticketmaster to handle to cost of the phone lines...which is something they want to avoid , unless they invest almost the same amount in R&amp;D for a better system then what they got...either way , I guess I wont be going to see Metallica anytime soon .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you leave the door open, then you are stupid for letting in the flies, if you leave the screendoor closed but the main door open, you are stupid in thinking it will be enough to stop a robber, and if you only use a metal plated door, you are stupid in thinking it will stop the terminator.
CAPTCHAs have never really worked, even to the new image and text combo ones, i saw that came close once, but it was based on a few QA style system, so not 1 or 2 but 3 or 4 questions about the person just like when you call a phone bank service.Anyways, the best way to really get security is with the secureid system, i have used and see its enormous advantage, the ID switches every so often, so even if you know the main password, you need the id to add the last part to concatenate to the rest.
However, how many people log unto a website are able to have a system like that that can be verified other then companies giving their employees these.
In this situation, I would say, make ticket sales phone based only.
If this is something that is time sensitive and that in order to avoid one guy getting all the tickets based on a software that runs, then make it phone based only.If you have a website ECommerce site, and it is used to sell products, the person logging to buy up all your products only makes you more money, but tickets is not in the same league as let's say buying a laptop or iphone off the internet.
People are not too lazy that calling by phone will get them a secured ticket, but then again it would fall on ticketmaster to handle to cost of the phone lines...which is something they want to avoid, unless they invest almost the same amount in R&amp;D for a better system then what they got...either way, I guess I wont be going to see Metallica anytime soon.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328590</id>
	<title>linux?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267538040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>for fags.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>for fags .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>for fags.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328372</id>
	<title>Re:Dutch Auction</title>
	<author>Registered Coward v2</author>
	<datestamp>1267534860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>How about a dutch auction?</p><p>Start the price offensively high, and drop it as the concert date approaches. The organiser gets paid the price the market will bear, the scalpers are out of the loop - because by definition, anyone willing to pay a stupid price for a guaranteed ticket will already have paid it.</p><p>You still get the same effective problem - that rich fans are prioritised over poor fans, but more money goes to the artist and the organiser, so they could throw a few benefit concerts or something to sweeten the deal.</p></div><p>The problem is promoters and talent want two things - sold out venues and maximum price per ticket.  Scalpers act as a hedge against lost sales and inaccurate demand / pricing - they take the risk of getting stuck with tickets or losing money; something promoters don't want to accept themselves.  Dutch auctions would probably condition people to wait because they learn prices will fill - which causes prices to fall - and promoters have no idea how much money they make nad when.  They hate scalpers because, in their mind, they are taking "their" money; and convenientlyignore the risk mitigation role.</p><p>Laws barring  reselling of tickets, IMHO, merely serve to restrict the market and raise ticket prices overall so promoters can make more money.  There is no rational reason to bar ticket reselling anymore than to bar reselling of any other good.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How about a dutch auction ? Start the price offensively high , and drop it as the concert date approaches .
The organiser gets paid the price the market will bear , the scalpers are out of the loop - because by definition , anyone willing to pay a stupid price for a guaranteed ticket will already have paid it.You still get the same effective problem - that rich fans are prioritised over poor fans , but more money goes to the artist and the organiser , so they could throw a few benefit concerts or something to sweeten the deal.The problem is promoters and talent want two things - sold out venues and maximum price per ticket .
Scalpers act as a hedge against lost sales and inaccurate demand / pricing - they take the risk of getting stuck with tickets or losing money ; something promoters do n't want to accept themselves .
Dutch auctions would probably condition people to wait because they learn prices will fill - which causes prices to fall - and promoters have no idea how much money they make nad when .
They hate scalpers because , in their mind , they are taking " their " money ; and convenientlyignore the risk mitigation role.Laws barring reselling of tickets , IMHO , merely serve to restrict the market and raise ticket prices overall so promoters can make more money .
There is no rational reason to bar ticket reselling anymore than to bar reselling of any other good .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about a dutch auction?Start the price offensively high, and drop it as the concert date approaches.
The organiser gets paid the price the market will bear, the scalpers are out of the loop - because by definition, anyone willing to pay a stupid price for a guaranteed ticket will already have paid it.You still get the same effective problem - that rich fans are prioritised over poor fans, but more money goes to the artist and the organiser, so they could throw a few benefit concerts or something to sweeten the deal.The problem is promoters and talent want two things - sold out venues and maximum price per ticket.
Scalpers act as a hedge against lost sales and inaccurate demand / pricing - they take the risk of getting stuck with tickets or losing money; something promoters don't want to accept themselves.
Dutch auctions would probably condition people to wait because they learn prices will fill - which causes prices to fall - and promoters have no idea how much money they make nad when.
They hate scalpers because, in their mind, they are taking "their" money; and convenientlyignore the risk mitigation role.Laws barring  reselling of tickets, IMHO, merely serve to restrict the market and raise ticket prices overall so promoters can make more money.
There is no rational reason to bar ticket reselling anymore than to bar reselling of any other good.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328418</id>
	<title>Re:What is the ethical difference?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267535640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Who cares about ethics when there's profit to be had?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Who cares about ethics when there 's profit to be had ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Who cares about ethics when there's profit to be had?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328128</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31367540</id>
	<title>Re:This is pretty ridiculous...</title>
	<author>chaboud</author>
	<datestamp>1267726320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Honestly, I don't generally mind Ticketmaster.  They serve a fairly useful function, and it's my understanding that the convenience fee can often include promoter fees from which Ticketmaster takes no profit.  Promoters would just rather that Ticketmaster absorb the public ill will.</p><p>That said, this falls well within the umbrella of principles leading to, say, the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale\_doctrine" title="wikipedia.org">first sale doctrine</a> [wikipedia.org].  You should read up on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobbs-Merrill\_Co.\_v.\_Straus" title="wikipedia.org">Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus</a> [wikipedia.org] in which the court first established the first sale doctrine.  More to the point, check out <a href="http://supreme.justia.com/us/356/1/case.html" title="justia.com">Northern Pacific R. Co v United States</a> [justia.com], in which the Supreme Court held that vertical price fixing agreements are per se illegal under the Sherman act.  Ticketmaster could have terms-of-service that require that I kill the next person I meet after purchasing a ticket, but that would be an <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal\_agreement" title="wikipedia.org">illegal agreement</a> [wikipedia.org].  Contractual restrictions illegal under the Sherman act count.  Ticketmaster doesn't get to violate contract law just because they use computers.</p><p>More simply, you can't contractually agree to do something illegal, including price fixing.  It's why there's an "S" (suggested) in MSRP and an "A" (Advertised) in MAP.</p><p>You <b>do not</b> have the legal right to the success of the business model of your choosing, and designing/implementing an easily-gamed system is <b>your</b> fault, not the fault of those who game it.  If you ran a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-card\_Monte" title="wikipedia.org">three-card monte</a> [wikipedia.org] game with clear plastic cups and then sued me when you realized that you'd lost your shirt, tough nuts.</p><p><i>My only bias is against being stupid...</i></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Honestly , I do n't generally mind Ticketmaster .
They serve a fairly useful function , and it 's my understanding that the convenience fee can often include promoter fees from which Ticketmaster takes no profit .
Promoters would just rather that Ticketmaster absorb the public ill will.That said , this falls well within the umbrella of principles leading to , say , the first sale doctrine [ wikipedia.org ] .
You should read up on Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus [ wikipedia.org ] in which the court first established the first sale doctrine .
More to the point , check out Northern Pacific R. Co v United States [ justia.com ] , in which the Supreme Court held that vertical price fixing agreements are per se illegal under the Sherman act .
Ticketmaster could have terms-of-service that require that I kill the next person I meet after purchasing a ticket , but that would be an illegal agreement [ wikipedia.org ] .
Contractual restrictions illegal under the Sherman act count .
Ticketmaster does n't get to violate contract law just because they use computers.More simply , you ca n't contractually agree to do something illegal , including price fixing .
It 's why there 's an " S " ( suggested ) in MSRP and an " A " ( Advertised ) in MAP.You do not have the legal right to the success of the business model of your choosing , and designing/implementing an easily-gamed system is your fault , not the fault of those who game it .
If you ran a three-card monte [ wikipedia.org ] game with clear plastic cups and then sued me when you realized that you 'd lost your shirt , tough nuts.My only bias is against being stupid.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Honestly, I don't generally mind Ticketmaster.
They serve a fairly useful function, and it's my understanding that the convenience fee can often include promoter fees from which Ticketmaster takes no profit.
Promoters would just rather that Ticketmaster absorb the public ill will.That said, this falls well within the umbrella of principles leading to, say, the first sale doctrine [wikipedia.org].
You should read up on Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus [wikipedia.org] in which the court first established the first sale doctrine.
More to the point, check out Northern Pacific R. Co v United States [justia.com], in which the Supreme Court held that vertical price fixing agreements are per se illegal under the Sherman act.
Ticketmaster could have terms-of-service that require that I kill the next person I meet after purchasing a ticket, but that would be an illegal agreement [wikipedia.org].
Contractual restrictions illegal under the Sherman act count.
Ticketmaster doesn't get to violate contract law just because they use computers.More simply, you can't contractually agree to do something illegal, including price fixing.
It's why there's an "S" (suggested) in MSRP and an "A" (Advertised) in MAP.You do not have the legal right to the success of the business model of your choosing, and designing/implementing an easily-gamed system is your fault, not the fault of those who game it.
If you ran a three-card monte [wikipedia.org] game with clear plastic cups and then sued me when you realized that you'd lost your shirt, tough nuts.My only bias is against being stupid...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328348</id>
	<title>Re:Just ban scalping...</title>
	<author>deniable</author>
	<datestamp>1267534680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>They already limit the number of tickets people can buy in one hit and how exactly do they know if the ticket was resold?</htmltext>
<tokenext>They already limit the number of tickets people can buy in one hit and how exactly do they know if the ticket was resold ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They already limit the number of tickets people can buy in one hit and how exactly do they know if the ticket was resold?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328272</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328142</id>
	<title>This is pretty ridiculous...</title>
	<author>chaboud</author>
	<datestamp>1267531560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not illegal to resell tickets above face value in most states (check out <a href="http://www.stubhub.com/" title="stubhub.com">stub hub</a> [stubhub.com] for TicketMaster's very own foray into person-to-person ticket sales), and business can be conducted in alternate states with more lax restrictions on ticket resale.</p><p>Beyond that, smoking a CAPTCHA system with a bit of cleverness is <b>not</b> hacking or unauthorized access in any reasonable way.  This is just a ridiculous attempt to criminalize scuzzy, crappy, opportunistic behavior on the part of one party (scalpers) at the expense of  another scuzzy, crappy, opportunistic party (TicketMaster).  This strikes me as another case of people trying to misuse the law to remedy the <i>unexpected</i> (only by idiots) defeat of a faulty system.  If one reads the article, it seems like Wiseguys (seriously?  That's your name?) made purchases on behalf of ticket brokers <i>(ticket-broker is to scalper as escort is to hooker)</i> with detection-avoiding measures in place to keep TicketMaster from blocking the regulars.</p><p>It's an attempt by TicketMaster to wipe the egg off of their face, a face that most of America hates with a passion.  Perhaps they should find a better way (reverse auction, anyone?) to find the natural market price instead of using time-release scarcity to spur impulse-buys that inevitably result in person-to-person ticket resale later on <a href="http://www.stubhub.com/" title="stubhub.com">stub hub</a> [stubhub.com] where they get to come back for a second skim off the top...</p><p>Oh.. <i>right</i>...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not illegal to resell tickets above face value in most states ( check out stub hub [ stubhub.com ] for TicketMaster 's very own foray into person-to-person ticket sales ) , and business can be conducted in alternate states with more lax restrictions on ticket resale.Beyond that , smoking a CAPTCHA system with a bit of cleverness is not hacking or unauthorized access in any reasonable way .
This is just a ridiculous attempt to criminalize scuzzy , crappy , opportunistic behavior on the part of one party ( scalpers ) at the expense of another scuzzy , crappy , opportunistic party ( TicketMaster ) .
This strikes me as another case of people trying to misuse the law to remedy the unexpected ( only by idiots ) defeat of a faulty system .
If one reads the article , it seems like Wiseguys ( seriously ?
That 's your name ?
) made purchases on behalf of ticket brokers ( ticket-broker is to scalper as escort is to hooker ) with detection-avoiding measures in place to keep TicketMaster from blocking the regulars.It 's an attempt by TicketMaster to wipe the egg off of their face , a face that most of America hates with a passion .
Perhaps they should find a better way ( reverse auction , anyone ?
) to find the natural market price instead of using time-release scarcity to spur impulse-buys that inevitably result in person-to-person ticket resale later on stub hub [ stubhub.com ] where they get to come back for a second skim off the top...Oh.. right.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not illegal to resell tickets above face value in most states (check out stub hub [stubhub.com] for TicketMaster's very own foray into person-to-person ticket sales), and business can be conducted in alternate states with more lax restrictions on ticket resale.Beyond that, smoking a CAPTCHA system with a bit of cleverness is not hacking or unauthorized access in any reasonable way.
This is just a ridiculous attempt to criminalize scuzzy, crappy, opportunistic behavior on the part of one party (scalpers) at the expense of  another scuzzy, crappy, opportunistic party (TicketMaster).
This strikes me as another case of people trying to misuse the law to remedy the unexpected (only by idiots) defeat of a faulty system.
If one reads the article, it seems like Wiseguys (seriously?
That's your name?
) made purchases on behalf of ticket brokers (ticket-broker is to scalper as escort is to hooker) with detection-avoiding measures in place to keep TicketMaster from blocking the regulars.It's an attempt by TicketMaster to wipe the egg off of their face, a face that most of America hates with a passion.
Perhaps they should find a better way (reverse auction, anyone?
) to find the natural market price instead of using time-release scarcity to spur impulse-buys that inevitably result in person-to-person ticket resale later on stub hub [stubhub.com] where they get to come back for a second skim off the top...Oh.. right...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330310</id>
	<title>Re:Are you telling me...</title>
	<author>inviolet</author>
	<datestamp>1267547580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>that Stubhub is owned by Ticketmaster? I can't believe this. The last two times I tried to get into concerts at the Rochester Auditorium Theater and the War Memorial (Blue Cross Arena), it was difficult. Somehow all the good seats vanished almost immediately. But no, there are seats that magically appear on Stubhub. All you have to do is pay $300 for a $75 seat. Infuriated, I refused (obviously, I've been out of the loop for a while). So for one concert I bought tickets from someone on eBay (double the face value!) and for the other I just got cheap tickets in a poor location. Apparently this kind of poor service has no effect since the venues are sold out anyway.</p></div></blockquote><p>Wow do you ever need a semester of Micro 101.  The "face value" of a ticket is just noise -- it has little bearing on the actual <i>value</i> of a ticket.  The actual value can only be determined by a market that is allowed to clear.
</p><p>Since the auditorium is full despite the 300+\% markups, the face value must be incorrect.  And now you are bent out of shape because the incorrect face value set your expectations erroneously low.
</p><p>Ticketmaster uses artificially low face values in order to give the scalpers, who are its risk-mitigation division, some wiggle room.  Scalpers could not perform their service if they had to buy the tickets (and hence risk getting stuck with excess inventory) at their full real value.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>that Stubhub is owned by Ticketmaster ?
I ca n't believe this .
The last two times I tried to get into concerts at the Rochester Auditorium Theater and the War Memorial ( Blue Cross Arena ) , it was difficult .
Somehow all the good seats vanished almost immediately .
But no , there are seats that magically appear on Stubhub .
All you have to do is pay $ 300 for a $ 75 seat .
Infuriated , I refused ( obviously , I 've been out of the loop for a while ) .
So for one concert I bought tickets from someone on eBay ( double the face value !
) and for the other I just got cheap tickets in a poor location .
Apparently this kind of poor service has no effect since the venues are sold out anyway.Wow do you ever need a semester of Micro 101 .
The " face value " of a ticket is just noise -- it has little bearing on the actual value of a ticket .
The actual value can only be determined by a market that is allowed to clear .
Since the auditorium is full despite the 300 + \ % markups , the face value must be incorrect .
And now you are bent out of shape because the incorrect face value set your expectations erroneously low .
Ticketmaster uses artificially low face values in order to give the scalpers , who are its risk-mitigation division , some wiggle room .
Scalpers could not perform their service if they had to buy the tickets ( and hence risk getting stuck with excess inventory ) at their full real value .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>that Stubhub is owned by Ticketmaster?
I can't believe this.
The last two times I tried to get into concerts at the Rochester Auditorium Theater and the War Memorial (Blue Cross Arena), it was difficult.
Somehow all the good seats vanished almost immediately.
But no, there are seats that magically appear on Stubhub.
All you have to do is pay $300 for a $75 seat.
Infuriated, I refused (obviously, I've been out of the loop for a while).
So for one concert I bought tickets from someone on eBay (double the face value!
) and for the other I just got cheap tickets in a poor location.
Apparently this kind of poor service has no effect since the venues are sold out anyway.Wow do you ever need a semester of Micro 101.
The "face value" of a ticket is just noise -- it has little bearing on the actual value of a ticket.
The actual value can only be determined by a market that is allowed to clear.
Since the auditorium is full despite the 300+\% markups, the face value must be incorrect.
And now you are bent out of shape because the incorrect face value set your expectations erroneously low.
Ticketmaster uses artificially low face values in order to give the scalpers, who are its risk-mitigation division, some wiggle room.
Scalpers could not perform their service if they had to buy the tickets (and hence risk getting stuck with excess inventory) at their full real value.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329704</id>
	<title>Re:Dutch Auction</title>
	<author>jandrese</author>
	<datestamp>1267544700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The scalpers would just write a bot to bid in every single auction.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The scalpers would just write a bot to bid in every single auction .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The scalpers would just write a bot to bid in every single auction.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328336</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328858</id>
	<title>Easy solution...</title>
	<author>WoollyMittens</author>
	<datestamp>1267540080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why aren't tickets sold to name? It'd solve all this stupid scalping stuff.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why are n't tickets sold to name ?
It 'd solve all this stupid scalping stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why aren't tickets sold to name?
It'd solve all this stupid scalping stuff.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328216</id>
	<title>Re:Dutch Auction</title>
	<author>jlebrech</author>
	<datestamp>1267532580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>wish I could MOD you up.</p><p>It could also, lower the server load when new tickets start to sell.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>wish I could MOD you up.It could also , lower the server load when new tickets start to sell .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>wish I could MOD you up.It could also, lower the server load when new tickets start to sell.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31339428</id>
	<title>Re:Just ban scalping...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267542000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>If the penalty is serious enough (say jail or huge fines) scalpers wont bother.</i> </p><p>The reak cocksuckers who should be in jail are the bastards who sell the tickets in the first place.</p><p>I once read the back of a ticket for a show "sponsored by the San Francisco Chronicle" at the concert venue in Concord, California.</p><p>Surprise -- EACH FUCKING INDIVIDUAL TICKET included a few bucks of parking fee for the FREE PARKING. And they still had kids in the lot selling VIP parking for an additional $10.</p><p>Understand what's going on here -- EACH ATTENDEE has prepaid a parking fee on EACH ticket. The parking is advertised as "free" because you don't pay at the gate. So, you pay for parking if you drive your cqr in. If you save the promoter space by bringing four other people in your car, you pay the son of a bitch FIVE parking fees. If you WALK in, as I saw many (probably local) kids doing, EACH ONE has paid a parking fee for leaving tjheir cars parked AT HOME in their own driveways.</p><p>Now you know the real guys who should have their nuts crushed -- slowly.</p><p>If I ever again get stuck going to such an event (not likely), I WILL RESIST all attempts at car-pooling and take my own vehicle and park it in MY FUCKING PAID-FOR INDIVIDUAL PARKING SPACE. It's MY fucking carbon and I'll spend it as I see fit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the penalty is serious enough ( say jail or huge fines ) scalpers wont bother .
The reak cocksuckers who should be in jail are the bastards who sell the tickets in the first place.I once read the back of a ticket for a show " sponsored by the San Francisco Chronicle " at the concert venue in Concord , California.Surprise -- EACH FUCKING INDIVIDUAL TICKET included a few bucks of parking fee for the FREE PARKING .
And they still had kids in the lot selling VIP parking for an additional $ 10.Understand what 's going on here -- EACH ATTENDEE has prepaid a parking fee on EACH ticket .
The parking is advertised as " free " because you do n't pay at the gate .
So , you pay for parking if you drive your cqr in .
If you save the promoter space by bringing four other people in your car , you pay the son of a bitch FIVE parking fees .
If you WALK in , as I saw many ( probably local ) kids doing , EACH ONE has paid a parking fee for leaving tjheir cars parked AT HOME in their own driveways.Now you know the real guys who should have their nuts crushed -- slowly.If I ever again get stuck going to such an event ( not likely ) , I WILL RESIST all attempts at car-pooling and take my own vehicle and park it in MY FUCKING PAID-FOR INDIVIDUAL PARKING SPACE .
It 's MY fucking carbon and I 'll spend it as I see fit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the penalty is serious enough (say jail or huge fines) scalpers wont bother.
The reak cocksuckers who should be in jail are the bastards who sell the tickets in the first place.I once read the back of a ticket for a show "sponsored by the San Francisco Chronicle" at the concert venue in Concord, California.Surprise -- EACH FUCKING INDIVIDUAL TICKET included a few bucks of parking fee for the FREE PARKING.
And they still had kids in the lot selling VIP parking for an additional $10.Understand what's going on here -- EACH ATTENDEE has prepaid a parking fee on EACH ticket.
The parking is advertised as "free" because you don't pay at the gate.
So, you pay for parking if you drive your cqr in.
If you save the promoter space by bringing four other people in your car, you pay the son of a bitch FIVE parking fees.
If you WALK in, as I saw many (probably local) kids doing, EACH ONE has paid a parking fee for leaving tjheir cars parked AT HOME in their own driveways.Now you know the real guys who should have their nuts crushed -- slowly.If I ever again get stuck going to such an event (not likely), I WILL RESIST all attempts at car-pooling and take my own vehicle and park it in MY FUCKING PAID-FOR INDIVIDUAL PARKING SPACE.
It's MY fucking carbon and I'll spend it as I see fit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328272</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31336240</id>
	<title>Re:Are you telling me...</title>
	<author>TheSync</author>
	<datestamp>1267526700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Stubhub is owned by Ticketmaster? </i></p><p>No, Stubhub is NOT owned by Ticketmaster, it is owned by eBay. Reseller <a href="http://www.ticketsnow.com/" title="ticketsnow.com">TicketsNow</a> [ticketsnow.com] is owned by Ticketmaster.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Stubhub is owned by Ticketmaster ?
No , Stubhub is NOT owned by Ticketmaster , it is owned by eBay .
Reseller TicketsNow [ ticketsnow.com ] is owned by Ticketmaster .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stubhub is owned by Ticketmaster?
No, Stubhub is NOT owned by Ticketmaster, it is owned by eBay.
Reseller TicketsNow [ticketsnow.com] is owned by Ticketmaster.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328128</id>
	<title>What is the ethical difference?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267531440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Between WiseGuy's and Goldman Sachs?  Both use computers to game their respective markets.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Between WiseGuy 's and Goldman Sachs ?
Both use computers to game their respective markets .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Between WiseGuy's and Goldman Sachs?
Both use computers to game their respective markets.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31331222</id>
	<title>Scalping == good</title>
	<author>CapnStank</author>
	<datestamp>1267551660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Scalping can be good too... My girlfriend wanted to attend a concert because of a certain artist playing. We bought the tickets and a month before the event the artist we desired cancelled. The other artists were still performing so Ticketmaster refused to issue a refund because our preferred artist was listed as "a guest" and not headlining the show. What did we do? Got our money back. I'd be out $180 if scalping was illegal.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Scalping can be good too... My girlfriend wanted to attend a concert because of a certain artist playing .
We bought the tickets and a month before the event the artist we desired cancelled .
The other artists were still performing so Ticketmaster refused to issue a refund because our preferred artist was listed as " a guest " and not headlining the show .
What did we do ?
Got our money back .
I 'd be out $ 180 if scalping was illegal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Scalping can be good too... My girlfriend wanted to attend a concert because of a certain artist playing.
We bought the tickets and a month before the event the artist we desired cancelled.
The other artists were still performing so Ticketmaster refused to issue a refund because our preferred artist was listed as "a guest" and not headlining the show.
What did we do?
Got our money back.
I'd be out $180 if scalping was illegal.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328482</id>
	<title>Re:What is the ethical difference?</title>
	<author>Shivetya</author>
	<datestamp>1267536660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>they donate to politicians?</p><p>Seems to be the difference between acceptable and not acceptable is how in favor you are with the politicians who write the laws.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>they donate to politicians ? Seems to be the difference between acceptable and not acceptable is how in favor you are with the politicians who write the laws .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>they donate to politicians?Seems to be the difference between acceptable and not acceptable is how in favor you are with the politicians who write the laws.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328128</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329780</id>
	<title>Re:Are you telling me...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267545000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've always suspected that most of the bigger scalpers are in league with Ticketmaster.  Heck, the ones in this article might have been hit just because they didn't pay Ticketmaster the proper kickbacks on their scalping operation.  It just didn't seem feasable to me that someone stuck going through the same slow overloaded crappy interface as everybody else would be able to snap up <b>all</b> of the good tickets within milliseconds of them going on sale (who am I kidding, they were all gone well before ticket sales opened up) otherwise.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've always suspected that most of the bigger scalpers are in league with Ticketmaster .
Heck , the ones in this article might have been hit just because they did n't pay Ticketmaster the proper kickbacks on their scalping operation .
It just did n't seem feasable to me that someone stuck going through the same slow overloaded crappy interface as everybody else would be able to snap up all of the good tickets within milliseconds of them going on sale ( who am I kidding , they were all gone well before ticket sales opened up ) otherwise .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've always suspected that most of the bigger scalpers are in league with Ticketmaster.
Heck, the ones in this article might have been hit just because they didn't pay Ticketmaster the proper kickbacks on their scalping operation.
It just didn't seem feasable to me that someone stuck going through the same slow overloaded crappy interface as everybody else would be able to snap up all of the good tickets within milliseconds of them going on sale (who am I kidding, they were all gone well before ticket sales opened up) otherwise.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328930</id>
	<title>We pass so many useless laws, why not one for this</title>
	<author>haplo21112</author>
	<datestamp>1267540620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just make it a law that its illegal to resell tickets for anymore than the face value.</p><p>Hell why don't we just go all the way and print the purchasers name on the damned ticket and if you don't show up at the event with positive ID sorry out of luck.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just make it a law that its illegal to resell tickets for anymore than the face value.Hell why do n't we just go all the way and print the purchasers name on the damned ticket and if you do n't show up at the event with positive ID sorry out of luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just make it a law that its illegal to resell tickets for anymore than the face value.Hell why don't we just go all the way and print the purchasers name on the damned ticket and if you don't show up at the event with positive ID sorry out of luck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276</id>
	<title>Are you telling me...</title>
	<author>cvtan</author>
	<datestamp>1267533540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>that Stubhub is owned by Ticketmaster?  I can't believe this.  The last two times I tried to get into concerts at the Rochester Auditorium Theater and the War Memorial (Blue Cross Arena), it was difficult.  Somehow all the good seats vanished almost immediately.  But no, there are seats that magically appear on Stubhub.  All you have to do is pay $300 for a $75 seat.  Infuriated, I refused (obviously, I've been out of the loop for a while).  So for one concert I bought tickets from someone on eBay (double the face value!) and for the other I just got cheap tickets in a poor location.  Apparently this kind of poor service has no effect since the venues are sold out anyway.  This makes me not want to go to events like this and just buy the DVD!  Maybe you have to be a teenager to put up with this BS.  I still have the antiquated belief that ticket resellers should not make more money than the artists or promoters.  You don't see Wallstreet brokers doing this.  Oh, wait...</htmltext>
<tokenext>that Stubhub is owned by Ticketmaster ?
I ca n't believe this .
The last two times I tried to get into concerts at the Rochester Auditorium Theater and the War Memorial ( Blue Cross Arena ) , it was difficult .
Somehow all the good seats vanished almost immediately .
But no , there are seats that magically appear on Stubhub .
All you have to do is pay $ 300 for a $ 75 seat .
Infuriated , I refused ( obviously , I 've been out of the loop for a while ) .
So for one concert I bought tickets from someone on eBay ( double the face value !
) and for the other I just got cheap tickets in a poor location .
Apparently this kind of poor service has no effect since the venues are sold out anyway .
This makes me not want to go to events like this and just buy the DVD !
Maybe you have to be a teenager to put up with this BS .
I still have the antiquated belief that ticket resellers should not make more money than the artists or promoters .
You do n't see Wallstreet brokers doing this .
Oh , wait.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>that Stubhub is owned by Ticketmaster?
I can't believe this.
The last two times I tried to get into concerts at the Rochester Auditorium Theater and the War Memorial (Blue Cross Arena), it was difficult.
Somehow all the good seats vanished almost immediately.
But no, there are seats that magically appear on Stubhub.
All you have to do is pay $300 for a $75 seat.
Infuriated, I refused (obviously, I've been out of the loop for a while).
So for one concert I bought tickets from someone on eBay (double the face value!
) and for the other I just got cheap tickets in a poor location.
Apparently this kind of poor service has no effect since the venues are sold out anyway.
This makes me not want to go to events like this and just buy the DVD!
Maybe you have to be a teenager to put up with this BS.
I still have the antiquated belief that ticket resellers should not make more money than the artists or promoters.
You don't see Wallstreet brokers doing this.
Oh, wait...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328424</id>
	<title>$25 million gaming dollars</title>
	<author>bryan1945</author>
	<datestamp>1267535760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is this like the South Park episode where Butters earned $300 million theoretical Internet dollars?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is this like the South Park episode where Butters earned $ 300 million theoretical Internet dollars ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is this like the South Park episode where Butters earned $300 million theoretical Internet dollars?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329050</id>
	<title>You mean they aren't dynamically generated?</title>
	<author>davidwr</author>
	<datestamp>1267541340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wow, I assumed that when used for "serious" applications they were either dynamically generated in real time or at least batch-generated and not re-used.</p><p>From the looks of things though, Slashdot's captcha pool is drawn from the top n=NOTSOBIGNUM words geeks would find humorous.</p><p>Ironically, my<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. captcha is "profits" - hmm, maybe I'm wrong, maybe<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. matches captchas to the topic of the article.  On the other hand, maybe it's just an illusion.  Am I still in The Matrix?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow , I assumed that when used for " serious " applications they were either dynamically generated in real time or at least batch-generated and not re-used.From the looks of things though , Slashdot 's captcha pool is drawn from the top n = NOTSOBIGNUM words geeks would find humorous.Ironically , my / .
captcha is " profits " - hmm , maybe I 'm wrong , maybe / .
matches captchas to the topic of the article .
On the other hand , maybe it 's just an illusion .
Am I still in The Matrix ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow, I assumed that when used for "serious" applications they were either dynamically generated in real time or at least batch-generated and not re-used.From the looks of things though, Slashdot's captcha pool is drawn from the top n=NOTSOBIGNUM words geeks would find humorous.Ironically, my /.
captcha is "profits" - hmm, maybe I'm wrong, maybe /.
matches captchas to the topic of the article.
On the other hand, maybe it's just an illusion.
Am I still in The Matrix?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328032</id>
	<title>Why is it illegal?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267530300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They didn't rob the bank.</p><p>They didn't print fake dollar bill.</p><p>Every single dollar that they paid good money for purchasing the tickets are REAL money.</p><p>What's illegal about what they have done??</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They did n't rob the bank.They did n't print fake dollar bill.Every single dollar that they paid good money for purchasing the tickets are REAL money.What 's illegal about what they have done ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They didn't rob the bank.They didn't print fake dollar bill.Every single dollar that they paid good money for purchasing the tickets are REAL money.What's illegal about what they have done?
?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31327996</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330478</id>
	<title>Re:This is pretty ridiculous...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267548300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>This is just a ridiculous attempt to criminalize scuzzy, crappy, opportunistic behavior on the part of one party (scalpers) at the expense of another scuzzy, crappy, opportunistic party (TicketMaster). This strikes me as another case of people trying to misuse the law to remedy the unexpected (only by idiots) defeat of a faulty system.</p></div><p>
This is just your bias preventing you from seeing the argument.  If you RTFI (Indictment), you'll see that TicketMaster had clear ToS on their site which specifically prohibited the purchase of tickets on their websites for commercial re-sale.  Wiseguys wasn't even selling their tickets to the consumer, but to scalpers to sell for even MORE markup to the consumer.</p><p>
Their software also jockeyed Wiseguys to the front of the queue, when Ticketmasters was legally obligated to sell on a first-come, first serve basis and spent millions on technology assuring users were queued in that manner.  They put forth good faith and effort in creating that technology and yes, efforts to work around it, with or without success, is illegal.</p><p>IANAL, and I am no fan of Ticketmaster, but it's pretty striking that you would dismiss a company's right to protect itself in its contracts and reputation just because you do not like with the company.  Ticketmaster made the same amount of money it would have regardless of if it sold to private buyers or if Wiseguys bought all of their tickets; however, their contractual agreements with the venues, artists, etc., hold that they sell the tickets with specific conditions, of which they would be violating by turning a blind eye to whom is buying their tickets.</p><p>It is also the expectation that all consumers have equal opportunity to buy tickets using their website which is harmed when, despite their best efforts, companies with technological advantages deliberately overcome the considerable amount of defenses Ticketmaster put into place to prevent that sort of behavior.</p><p>Disliking the prosecuting company does not make their actions a misuse of law.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is just a ridiculous attempt to criminalize scuzzy , crappy , opportunistic behavior on the part of one party ( scalpers ) at the expense of another scuzzy , crappy , opportunistic party ( TicketMaster ) .
This strikes me as another case of people trying to misuse the law to remedy the unexpected ( only by idiots ) defeat of a faulty system .
This is just your bias preventing you from seeing the argument .
If you RTFI ( Indictment ) , you 'll see that TicketMaster had clear ToS on their site which specifically prohibited the purchase of tickets on their websites for commercial re-sale .
Wiseguys was n't even selling their tickets to the consumer , but to scalpers to sell for even MORE markup to the consumer .
Their software also jockeyed Wiseguys to the front of the queue , when Ticketmasters was legally obligated to sell on a first-come , first serve basis and spent millions on technology assuring users were queued in that manner .
They put forth good faith and effort in creating that technology and yes , efforts to work around it , with or without success , is illegal.IANAL , and I am no fan of Ticketmaster , but it 's pretty striking that you would dismiss a company 's right to protect itself in its contracts and reputation just because you do not like with the company .
Ticketmaster made the same amount of money it would have regardless of if it sold to private buyers or if Wiseguys bought all of their tickets ; however , their contractual agreements with the venues , artists , etc. , hold that they sell the tickets with specific conditions , of which they would be violating by turning a blind eye to whom is buying their tickets.It is also the expectation that all consumers have equal opportunity to buy tickets using their website which is harmed when , despite their best efforts , companies with technological advantages deliberately overcome the considerable amount of defenses Ticketmaster put into place to prevent that sort of behavior.Disliking the prosecuting company does not make their actions a misuse of law .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is just a ridiculous attempt to criminalize scuzzy, crappy, opportunistic behavior on the part of one party (scalpers) at the expense of another scuzzy, crappy, opportunistic party (TicketMaster).
This strikes me as another case of people trying to misuse the law to remedy the unexpected (only by idiots) defeat of a faulty system.
This is just your bias preventing you from seeing the argument.
If you RTFI (Indictment), you'll see that TicketMaster had clear ToS on their site which specifically prohibited the purchase of tickets on their websites for commercial re-sale.
Wiseguys wasn't even selling their tickets to the consumer, but to scalpers to sell for even MORE markup to the consumer.
Their software also jockeyed Wiseguys to the front of the queue, when Ticketmasters was legally obligated to sell on a first-come, first serve basis and spent millions on technology assuring users were queued in that manner.
They put forth good faith and effort in creating that technology and yes, efforts to work around it, with or without success, is illegal.IANAL, and I am no fan of Ticketmaster, but it's pretty striking that you would dismiss a company's right to protect itself in its contracts and reputation just because you do not like with the company.
Ticketmaster made the same amount of money it would have regardless of if it sold to private buyers or if Wiseguys bought all of their tickets; however, their contractual agreements with the venues, artists, etc., hold that they sell the tickets with specific conditions, of which they would be violating by turning a blind eye to whom is buying their tickets.It is also the expectation that all consumers have equal opportunity to buy tickets using their website which is harmed when, despite their best efforts, companies with technological advantages deliberately overcome the considerable amount of defenses Ticketmaster put into place to prevent that sort of behavior.Disliking the prosecuting company does not make their actions a misuse of law.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328142</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329028</id>
	<title>Ticketmaster fees are on the same level as scalpin</title>
	<author>Joe The Dragon</author>
	<datestamp>1267541220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ticketmaster fees are on the same level as scalping so why not jail them as well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ticketmaster fees are on the same level as scalping so why not jail them as well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ticketmaster fees are on the same level as scalping so why not jail them as well.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330396</id>
	<title>Monopolies</title>
	<author>Thaelon</author>
	<datestamp>1267547940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yet nobody is complaining over the monopoly, or near monopoly held by Ticketmaster and Livenation (who are looking to merge, actually so they can fuck you even harder).</p><p>Ever heard of the infamous Ticketmaster(TM) "convenience fee"?  That's right, they charge you a "convenience fee" just because they can get away with it because you don't have a choice.  It's a market in dire need of some trust busting.  Fortunately it's pure entertainment and concert going is not something your life depends on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yet nobody is complaining over the monopoly , or near monopoly held by Ticketmaster and Livenation ( who are looking to merge , actually so they can fuck you even harder ) .Ever heard of the infamous Ticketmaster ( TM ) " convenience fee " ?
That 's right , they charge you a " convenience fee " just because they can get away with it because you do n't have a choice .
It 's a market in dire need of some trust busting .
Fortunately it 's pure entertainment and concert going is not something your life depends on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yet nobody is complaining over the monopoly, or near monopoly held by Ticketmaster and Livenation (who are looking to merge, actually so they can fuck you even harder).Ever heard of the infamous Ticketmaster(TM) "convenience fee"?
That's right, they charge you a "convenience fee" just because they can get away with it because you don't have a choice.
It's a market in dire need of some trust busting.
Fortunately it's pure entertainment and concert going is not something your life depends on.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31336306</id>
	<title>Re:Monopolies</title>
	<author>TheSync</author>
	<datestamp>1267527000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Ever heard of the infamous Ticketmaster(TM) "convenience fee"?</i></p><p>A look at their SEC filing shows that most of the "convenience fee" ends up going back to the venues as exclusive lock-in fees.  This shifts risk away from the venue by replacing variable earnings from tickets into dependable flat payments from Ticketmaster.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ever heard of the infamous Ticketmaster ( TM ) " convenience fee " ? A look at their SEC filing shows that most of the " convenience fee " ends up going back to the venues as exclusive lock-in fees .
This shifts risk away from the venue by replacing variable earnings from tickets into dependable flat payments from Ticketmaster .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ever heard of the infamous Ticketmaster(TM) "convenience fee"?A look at their SEC filing shows that most of the "convenience fee" ends up going back to the venues as exclusive lock-in fees.
This shifts risk away from the venue by replacing variable earnings from tickets into dependable flat payments from Ticketmaster.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330396</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31332536</id>
	<title>Re:Are you telling me...</title>
	<author>ari\_j</author>
	<datestamp>1267556280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm just surprised that they aren't sending DMCA take-down notices to eBay to further interfere with the competitive market for tickets.  Many companies do that to destroy the secondary market for their products, including DVDs (legal to sell under first-sale doctrine) and toys, based on my personal experience and second-hand accounts plus a lawsuit that a guy brought against Autodesk for doing it enough that his eBay account was suspended, even though he filed counter notices and had every auction reinstated by eBay.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm just surprised that they are n't sending DMCA take-down notices to eBay to further interfere with the competitive market for tickets .
Many companies do that to destroy the secondary market for their products , including DVDs ( legal to sell under first-sale doctrine ) and toys , based on my personal experience and second-hand accounts plus a lawsuit that a guy brought against Autodesk for doing it enough that his eBay account was suspended , even though he filed counter notices and had every auction reinstated by eBay .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm just surprised that they aren't sending DMCA take-down notices to eBay to further interfere with the competitive market for tickets.
Many companies do that to destroy the secondary market for their products, including DVDs (legal to sell under first-sale doctrine) and toys, based on my personal experience and second-hand accounts plus a lawsuit that a guy brought against Autodesk for doing it enough that his eBay account was suspended, even though he filed counter notices and had every auction reinstated by eBay.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329190</id>
	<title>Re:Dutch Auction</title>
	<author>halcyon1234</author>
	<datestamp>1267542180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about no ticket pre-sales at all?  You show up at the door, buy a ticket, and immediately enter the venue. If you're buying tickets for a group of friends, they need to be with you.</p><p>If the venue needs to bump up the ticket price by 5\% to make up for the present value they won't be getting with a pre-sale, fine. Better than then 250\% scumbag markup that currently exists.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about no ticket pre-sales at all ?
You show up at the door , buy a ticket , and immediately enter the venue .
If you 're buying tickets for a group of friends , they need to be with you.If the venue needs to bump up the ticket price by 5 \ % to make up for the present value they wo n't be getting with a pre-sale , fine .
Better than then 250 \ % scumbag markup that currently exists .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about no ticket pre-sales at all?
You show up at the door, buy a ticket, and immediately enter the venue.
If you're buying tickets for a group of friends, they need to be with you.If the venue needs to bump up the ticket price by 5\% to make up for the present value they won't be getting with a pre-sale, fine.
Better than then 250\% scumbag markup that currently exists.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126</id>
	<title>Dutch Auction</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267531440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about a dutch auction?</p><p>Start the price offensively high, and drop it as the concert date approaches. The organiser gets paid the price the market will bear, the scalpers are out of the loop - because by definition, anyone willing to pay a stupid price for a guaranteed ticket will already have paid it.</p><p>You still get the same effective problem - that rich fans are prioritised over poor fans, but more money goes to the artist and the organiser, so they could throw a few benefit concerts or something to sweeten the deal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about a dutch auction ? Start the price offensively high , and drop it as the concert date approaches .
The organiser gets paid the price the market will bear , the scalpers are out of the loop - because by definition , anyone willing to pay a stupid price for a guaranteed ticket will already have paid it.You still get the same effective problem - that rich fans are prioritised over poor fans , but more money goes to the artist and the organiser , so they could throw a few benefit concerts or something to sweeten the deal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about a dutch auction?Start the price offensively high, and drop it as the concert date approaches.
The organiser gets paid the price the market will bear, the scalpers are out of the loop - because by definition, anyone willing to pay a stupid price for a guaranteed ticket will already have paid it.You still get the same effective problem - that rich fans are prioritised over poor fans, but more money goes to the artist and the organiser, so they could throw a few benefit concerts or something to sweeten the deal.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328284</id>
	<title>Buying the tickets was not the problem</title>
	<author>houghi</author>
	<datestamp>1267533780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From the article</p><p><div class="quote"><p> The perpetrators took orders from ticket brokers, who were required to provide credit card numbers and account holder names in advance of a purchase so they could be programmed into the bot. Once the account holders received the tickets, they'd send them to Wiseguy, which would refund their credit card account. Wiseguy also had a bank of about 1,000 phone numbers that the bot submitted as customer contact numbers.</p> </div><p>So the tickets were payed. That is not the issue. Wether reselling should be allowed or not is another matter. What I am worried about is that they abused the credit card numbers of other people.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>From the article The perpetrators took orders from ticket brokers , who were required to provide credit card numbers and account holder names in advance of a purchase so they could be programmed into the bot .
Once the account holders received the tickets , they 'd send them to Wiseguy , which would refund their credit card account .
Wiseguy also had a bank of about 1,000 phone numbers that the bot submitted as customer contact numbers .
So the tickets were payed .
That is not the issue .
Wether reselling should be allowed or not is another matter .
What I am worried about is that they abused the credit card numbers of other people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From the article The perpetrators took orders from ticket brokers, who were required to provide credit card numbers and account holder names in advance of a purchase so they could be programmed into the bot.
Once the account holders received the tickets, they'd send them to Wiseguy, which would refund their credit card account.
Wiseguy also had a bank of about 1,000 phone numbers that the bot submitted as customer contact numbers.
So the tickets were payed.
That is not the issue.
Wether reselling should be allowed or not is another matter.
What I am worried about is that they abused the credit card numbers of other people.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31331580</id>
	<title>Re:Dutch Auction</title>
	<author>Necroloth</author>
	<datestamp>1267553040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>yes, a 10,000+ long queue is ideal</htmltext>
<tokenext>yes , a 10,000 + long queue is ideal</tokentext>
<sentencetext>yes, a 10,000+ long queue is ideal</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329190</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328466</id>
	<title>Re:Just ban scalping...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267536480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why just tickets? Why not the same rules for anyone who sells a Chinese-built electronics product for more than the two bowls of rice the poor guy at the factory was paid?</p><p>We live in a capitalist society, with there is a chain of resellers from the factory to the consumer, raising the prices at every step. That's how it's supposed to work (the other way, with fixed prices is usually called communism or socialism). That's the way it works for electronics, for cars, for food...</p><p>Are tickets more important than even food, since we seem to not just be willing to accept that they get sold at a fixed price, but actually consider it wrong (legally or morally) to treat them the exact same way?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why just tickets ?
Why not the same rules for anyone who sells a Chinese-built electronics product for more than the two bowls of rice the poor guy at the factory was paid ? We live in a capitalist society , with there is a chain of resellers from the factory to the consumer , raising the prices at every step .
That 's how it 's supposed to work ( the other way , with fixed prices is usually called communism or socialism ) .
That 's the way it works for electronics , for cars , for food...Are tickets more important than even food , since we seem to not just be willing to accept that they get sold at a fixed price , but actually consider it wrong ( legally or morally ) to treat them the exact same way ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why just tickets?
Why not the same rules for anyone who sells a Chinese-built electronics product for more than the two bowls of rice the poor guy at the factory was paid?We live in a capitalist society, with there is a chain of resellers from the factory to the consumer, raising the prices at every step.
That's how it's supposed to work (the other way, with fixed prices is usually called communism or socialism).
That's the way it works for electronics, for cars, for food...Are tickets more important than even food, since we seem to not just be willing to accept that they get sold at a fixed price, but actually consider it wrong (legally or morally) to treat them the exact same way?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328272</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330652</id>
	<title>Re:Are you telling me...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267548960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is damned funny! I love this $h*t. Big-name (according to the label) 'artists' get bussed into your town and of course, being the uninformed dork you are, you queue up for whatever they're serving. Why are you shocked (SHOCKED!) that someone would be making big money off the tickets you complain about not getting?<br>Law and demand, my brother. Invisible hand of the market and all that $h*t. Welcome to the new economy, same as the old economy.</p><p>Why don't you apply this simple filter to your future concert-going plans:</p><p>sub dont\_go {<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; if ($artist == 'LOCAL\_BAND' &amp;&amp; $venue == 'SOME\_BAR')<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; {print ("Get out of the basement!");}<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; else<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; {print ("Rent a movie!");}<br>}</p><p>if ($artist == 'BIG\_NAME' &amp;&amp; $venue == 'BIG\_PLACE')<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; { &amp;dont\_go;}<br>end</p><p>See? Works like a charm.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is damned funny !
I love this $ h * t. Big-name ( according to the label ) 'artists ' get bussed into your town and of course , being the uninformed dork you are , you queue up for whatever they 're serving .
Why are you shocked ( SHOCKED !
) that someone would be making big money off the tickets you complain about not getting ? Law and demand , my brother .
Invisible hand of the market and all that $ h * t. Welcome to the new economy , same as the old economy.Why do n't you apply this simple filter to your future concert-going plans : sub dont \ _go {     if ( $ artist = = 'LOCAL \ _BAND ' &amp;&amp; $ venue = = 'SOME \ _BAR ' )         { print ( " Get out of the basement !
" ) ; }     else         { print ( " Rent a movie !
" ) ; } } if ( $ artist = = 'BIG \ _NAME ' &amp;&amp; $ venue = = 'BIG \ _PLACE ' )     { &amp;dont \ _go ; } endSee ?
Works like a charm .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is damned funny!
I love this $h*t. Big-name (according to the label) 'artists' get bussed into your town and of course, being the uninformed dork you are, you queue up for whatever they're serving.
Why are you shocked (SHOCKED!
) that someone would be making big money off the tickets you complain about not getting?Law and demand, my brother.
Invisible hand of the market and all that $h*t. Welcome to the new economy, same as the old economy.Why don't you apply this simple filter to your future concert-going plans:sub dont\_go {
    if ($artist == 'LOCAL\_BAND' &amp;&amp; $venue == 'SOME\_BAR')
        {print ("Get out of the basement!
");}
    else
        {print ("Rent a movie!
");}}if ($artist == 'BIG\_NAME' &amp;&amp; $venue == 'BIG\_PLACE')
    { &amp;dont\_go;}endSee?
Works like a charm.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329110</id>
	<title>Re:What is the ethical difference?</title>
	<author>chaotixx</author>
	<datestamp>1267541700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>One of the two has effectively captured their market regulators.</htmltext>
<tokenext>One of the two has effectively captured their market regulators .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One of the two has effectively captured their market regulators.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328128</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31336458</id>
	<title>Re:Dutch Auction</title>
	<author>TheSync</author>
	<datestamp>1267527660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>How about a dutch auction?</i></p><p>Artists HATE this idea.  They are trying to signal to their fans that they believe "in the little guy", thus (in public) they say they like cheap tickets that sell on the primary market below their actual value in the resale market.</p><p>Yet artists typically resell the batch of tickets they get for their shows.  Plus when their tickets resell for big money, it signals to promoters and venues that they are "sure sell-outs" which helps them put together tours to ensure their ongoing livelihood.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about a dutch auction ? Artists HATE this idea .
They are trying to signal to their fans that they believe " in the little guy " , thus ( in public ) they say they like cheap tickets that sell on the primary market below their actual value in the resale market.Yet artists typically resell the batch of tickets they get for their shows .
Plus when their tickets resell for big money , it signals to promoters and venues that they are " sure sell-outs " which helps them put together tours to ensure their ongoing livelihood .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about a dutch auction?Artists HATE this idea.
They are trying to signal to their fans that they believe "in the little guy", thus (in public) they say they like cheap tickets that sell on the primary market below their actual value in the resale market.Yet artists typically resell the batch of tickets they get for their shows.
Plus when their tickets resell for big money, it signals to promoters and venues that they are "sure sell-outs" which helps them put together tours to ensure their ongoing livelihood.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31337620</id>
	<title>Technical challenge</title>
	<author>Wayne247</author>
	<datestamp>1267532220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So while just about everyone on this thread is actively debating the legality of mass-buying and reselling tickets, as a Slashdot member, I'm interesting in how they broke the system.</p><p>It seems to me that, while reCAPTCHA created a very interesting system, they exposed themselves to a ridiculously simple attack: the reuse of previous catpchas and the reuse of their identification numbers.</p><p>Fixing this would be very easy. I'm thinking of this method:<br>1. Every graphic image of captcha in the system is assigned a unique ID along with the response, just like it is right now.<br>2. When an external website requests a challenge, the system picks a captcha ID at random in the database.<br>3. Take this captcha ID and write it in a database, along with a random number.<br>4. From now on, the random number (ie "public random ID") is used for the website that is using it.<br>5. As soon as the challenge is solved (website proceeds with the rest of the user authentication), the public random ID database item for this number is marked "Wasted", and will never be used again.</p><p>There! Fixed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So while just about everyone on this thread is actively debating the legality of mass-buying and reselling tickets , as a Slashdot member , I 'm interesting in how they broke the system.It seems to me that , while reCAPTCHA created a very interesting system , they exposed themselves to a ridiculously simple attack : the reuse of previous catpchas and the reuse of their identification numbers.Fixing this would be very easy .
I 'm thinking of this method : 1 .
Every graphic image of captcha in the system is assigned a unique ID along with the response , just like it is right now.2 .
When an external website requests a challenge , the system picks a captcha ID at random in the database.3 .
Take this captcha ID and write it in a database , along with a random number.4 .
From now on , the random number ( ie " public random ID " ) is used for the website that is using it.5 .
As soon as the challenge is solved ( website proceeds with the rest of the user authentication ) , the public random ID database item for this number is marked " Wasted " , and will never be used again.There !
Fixed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So while just about everyone on this thread is actively debating the legality of mass-buying and reselling tickets, as a Slashdot member, I'm interesting in how they broke the system.It seems to me that, while reCAPTCHA created a very interesting system, they exposed themselves to a ridiculously simple attack: the reuse of previous catpchas and the reuse of their identification numbers.Fixing this would be very easy.
I'm thinking of this method:1.
Every graphic image of captcha in the system is assigned a unique ID along with the response, just like it is right now.2.
When an external website requests a challenge, the system picks a captcha ID at random in the database.3.
Take this captcha ID and write it in a database, along with a random number.4.
From now on, the random number (ie "public random ID") is used for the website that is using it.5.
As soon as the challenge is solved (website proceeds with the rest of the user authentication), the public random ID database item for this number is marked "Wasted", and will never be used again.There!
Fixed.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328378</id>
	<title>why is this in any way illigal this is usa</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267534980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>when did automated trading of goods become outlawed in the united states</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>when did automated trading of goods become outlawed in the united states</tokentext>
<sentencetext>when did automated trading of goods become outlawed in the united states</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328436</id>
	<title>Re:Dutch Auction</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267535880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Two problems:<br>Brand loyalty<br>all your most dedicated fans are now going to either pay outrageous prices for admittance or run the risk of missing shows<br>Last-minute-buyer profits<br>you wouldn't be able to overcharge the people that try to buy tickets the day of the event</p><p>I guess you could solve that by getting a "frequent buyer" benefits program and establishing a 200\% markup on "day-of" tickets.</p><p>Though, personally it would annoy me to buy tickets this way; having to try and gamble for the lowest price.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Two problems : Brand loyaltyall your most dedicated fans are now going to either pay outrageous prices for admittance or run the risk of missing showsLast-minute-buyer profitsyou would n't be able to overcharge the people that try to buy tickets the day of the eventI guess you could solve that by getting a " frequent buyer " benefits program and establishing a 200 \ % markup on " day-of " tickets.Though , personally it would annoy me to buy tickets this way ; having to try and gamble for the lowest price .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Two problems:Brand loyaltyall your most dedicated fans are now going to either pay outrageous prices for admittance or run the risk of missing showsLast-minute-buyer profitsyou wouldn't be able to overcharge the people that try to buy tickets the day of the eventI guess you could solve that by getting a "frequent buyer" benefits program and establishing a 200\% markup on "day-of" tickets.Though, personally it would annoy me to buy tickets this way; having to try and gamble for the lowest price.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328770</id>
	<title>Re:Dutch Auction</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267539540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That would never work. Have you never been to a concert? Demand for tickets increases as the event approaches. Most people don't know well in advance whether they'll be able to go or just can't decide but as the date gets closer, an increasing number of people do decide and also, as there's more publicity about the upcoming event, more people become aware of it. And you know what the logical action for any business is when they have a finite supply and increasing demand. That (and the need to have money to cover some costs early) is the reason why tickets are often sold (legitimately) with schemes like price X until two months before the event, Y until one month and then Z, where X&lt;Y&lt;Z. With your proposed system prices would be high when demand is low and low when demand is high.</p><p>Now, since sometimes it should imho be perfectly ok to resell a ticket, such as in case you have one and for some reason simply cannot go. But to solve that (and give organizers more profits), I'd implement a system that if (and only if) an event is sold out, those who still want tickets, can sign up to a queue and then allow people who have tickets but can't go return theirs for a refund. Then the organizers could demand ID that matches the name on the ticket and both allow people who cannot go "resell" theirs (with no profit) and be able to make more profits from the event (if a paid refund is X they can then sell the ticket to someone signed up in the queue for Z or maybe even a little more just to cover the cost of processing the refund).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That would never work .
Have you never been to a concert ?
Demand for tickets increases as the event approaches .
Most people do n't know well in advance whether they 'll be able to go or just ca n't decide but as the date gets closer , an increasing number of people do decide and also , as there 's more publicity about the upcoming event , more people become aware of it .
And you know what the logical action for any business is when they have a finite supply and increasing demand .
That ( and the need to have money to cover some costs early ) is the reason why tickets are often sold ( legitimately ) with schemes like price X until two months before the event , Y until one month and then Z , where XNow , since sometimes it should imho be perfectly ok to resell a ticket , such as in case you have one and for some reason simply can not go .
But to solve that ( and give organizers more profits ) , I 'd implement a system that if ( and only if ) an event is sold out , those who still want tickets , can sign up to a queue and then allow people who have tickets but ca n't go return theirs for a refund .
Then the organizers could demand ID that matches the name on the ticket and both allow people who can not go " resell " theirs ( with no profit ) and be able to make more profits from the event ( if a paid refund is X they can then sell the ticket to someone signed up in the queue for Z or maybe even a little more just to cover the cost of processing the refund ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That would never work.
Have you never been to a concert?
Demand for tickets increases as the event approaches.
Most people don't know well in advance whether they'll be able to go or just can't decide but as the date gets closer, an increasing number of people do decide and also, as there's more publicity about the upcoming event, more people become aware of it.
And you know what the logical action for any business is when they have a finite supply and increasing demand.
That (and the need to have money to cover some costs early) is the reason why tickets are often sold (legitimately) with schemes like price X until two months before the event, Y until one month and then Z, where XNow, since sometimes it should imho be perfectly ok to resell a ticket, such as in case you have one and for some reason simply cannot go.
But to solve that (and give organizers more profits), I'd implement a system that if (and only if) an event is sold out, those who still want tickets, can sign up to a queue and then allow people who have tickets but can't go return theirs for a refund.
Then the organizers could demand ID that matches the name on the ticket and both allow people who cannot go "resell" theirs (with no profit) and be able to make more profits from the event (if a paid refund is X they can then sell the ticket to someone signed up in the queue for Z or maybe even a little more just to cover the cost of processing the refund).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31336172</id>
	<title>Proof about the authorities.</title>
	<author>bezenek</author>
	<datestamp>1267526400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"the authorities said.' I guess you can break any system like CAPTCHA if you want it badly enough."<br> <br>
All this proves is the "authorities" do not know computability theory.<br> <br>I.e., it should be impossible to make a CAPTCHA which will work for every person and will not be breakable by a machine.<br> <br>
-Todd</htmltext>
<tokenext>" the authorities said .
' I guess you can break any system like CAPTCHA if you want it badly enough .
" All this proves is the " authorities " do not know computability theory .
I.e. , it should be impossible to make a CAPTCHA which will work for every person and will not be breakable by a machine .
-Todd</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"the authorities said.
' I guess you can break any system like CAPTCHA if you want it badly enough.
" 
All this proves is the "authorities" do not know computability theory.
I.e., it should be impossible to make a CAPTCHA which will work for every person and will not be breakable by a machine.
-Todd</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328160</id>
	<title>It's not one guy!</title>
	<author>spammeister</author>
	<datestamp>1267531860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm sure it was upwards in the many of dozens if not in the hundreds of individuals. This is probably only a problem because they didn't pay any taxes on income earned this way.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sure it was upwards in the many of dozens if not in the hundreds of individuals .
This is probably only a problem because they did n't pay any taxes on income earned this way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sure it was upwards in the many of dozens if not in the hundreds of individuals.
This is probably only a problem because they didn't pay any taxes on income earned this way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328674</id>
	<title>Love/hate relationship</title>
	<author>pongo000</author>
	<datestamp>1267538700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ticket scalpers and domain squatters:  Love 'em or hate 'em!</p><p>Sometimes I believe<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.ers are pissed at these types because <b>they</b> didn't think of the idea first.</p><p>It's a free market (after all, don't markets want to be free?)...I say kudos to them for figuring out how to scam the scam.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ticket scalpers and domain squatters : Love 'em or hate 'em ! Sometimes I believe /.ers are pissed at these types because they did n't think of the idea first.It 's a free market ( after all , do n't markets want to be free ?
) ...I say kudos to them for figuring out how to scam the scam .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ticket scalpers and domain squatters:  Love 'em or hate 'em!Sometimes I believe /.ers are pissed at these types because they didn't think of the idea first.It's a free market (after all, don't markets want to be free?
)...I say kudos to them for figuring out how to scam the scam.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31343958</id>
	<title>Say what?</title>
	<author>Hognoxious</author>
	<datestamp>1267624200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>They identified the file ID of each CAPTCHA challenge and created a database of CAPTCHA "answers" to correspond to each ID.</p></div></blockquote><p>Sorry, they reuse the IDs rather than munging them?  How hard is it to rename a file?</p><p>While that's less retarded than calling the file $WHATTHEANSEWRIS.jpg the difference isn't much.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>They identified the file ID of each CAPTCHA challenge and created a database of CAPTCHA " answers " to correspond to each ID.Sorry , they reuse the IDs rather than munging them ?
How hard is it to rename a file ? While that 's less retarded than calling the file $ WHATTHEANSEWRIS.jpg the difference is n't much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They identified the file ID of each CAPTCHA challenge and created a database of CAPTCHA "answers" to correspond to each ID.Sorry, they reuse the IDs rather than munging them?
How hard is it to rename a file?While that's less retarded than calling the file $WHATTHEANSEWRIS.jpg the difference isn't much.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328728</id>
	<title>Random ID</title>
	<author>Yowz882</author>
	<datestamp>1267539180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>..downloaded hundreds of thousands of possible CAPTCHA challenges from reCAPTCHA. They identified the file ID of each CAPTCHA challenge and created a database of CAPTCHA "answers" to correspond to each ID. The bot would then identify the file ID of a challenge at Ticketmaster and feed back the corresponding answer."</i> <br> <br>
This was an easy one.  Why didn't the developers implement a random ID for each captcha created?  For example, if my CAPTCHA system produced "Ableoo", I would put this in a temporary table with a random unique ID.  In fact, to make it more secure, I would put a time stamp on it so that it's only active for 1 minute!  The next time it produces the same Captcha, it will use a different ID.</htmltext>
<tokenext>..downloaded hundreds of thousands of possible CAPTCHA challenges from reCAPTCHA .
They identified the file ID of each CAPTCHA challenge and created a database of CAPTCHA " answers " to correspond to each ID .
The bot would then identify the file ID of a challenge at Ticketmaster and feed back the corresponding answer .
" This was an easy one .
Why did n't the developers implement a random ID for each captcha created ?
For example , if my CAPTCHA system produced " Ableoo " , I would put this in a temporary table with a random unique ID .
In fact , to make it more secure , I would put a time stamp on it so that it 's only active for 1 minute !
The next time it produces the same Captcha , it will use a different ID .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>..downloaded hundreds of thousands of possible CAPTCHA challenges from reCAPTCHA.
They identified the file ID of each CAPTCHA challenge and created a database of CAPTCHA "answers" to correspond to each ID.
The bot would then identify the file ID of a challenge at Ticketmaster and feed back the corresponding answer.
"  
This was an easy one.
Why didn't the developers implement a random ID for each captcha created?
For example, if my CAPTCHA system produced "Ableoo", I would put this in a temporary table with a random unique ID.
In fact, to make it more secure, I would put a time stamp on it so that it's only active for 1 minute!
The next time it produces the same Captcha, it will use a different ID.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328272</id>
	<title>Just ban scalping...</title>
	<author>jonwil</author>
	<datestamp>1267533480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Anyone who sells a ticket for more than its face value (with a suitable legal definition of "face value") would be hit in a big way. Any tickets they are in possession of would be forfeited back to the event organizer (who could go ahead and resell them)</p><p>If the penalty is serious enough (say jail or huge fines) scalpers wont bother.</p><p>Event organizers/ticket sellers could limit the number of tickets they will sell to any one person (so scalpers cant come in and buy 50-100 tickets or whatever)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Anyone who sells a ticket for more than its face value ( with a suitable legal definition of " face value " ) would be hit in a big way .
Any tickets they are in possession of would be forfeited back to the event organizer ( who could go ahead and resell them ) If the penalty is serious enough ( say jail or huge fines ) scalpers wont bother.Event organizers/ticket sellers could limit the number of tickets they will sell to any one person ( so scalpers cant come in and buy 50-100 tickets or whatever )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anyone who sells a ticket for more than its face value (with a suitable legal definition of "face value") would be hit in a big way.
Any tickets they are in possession of would be forfeited back to the event organizer (who could go ahead and resell them)If the penalty is serious enough (say jail or huge fines) scalpers wont bother.Event organizers/ticket sellers could limit the number of tickets they will sell to any one person (so scalpers cant come in and buy 50-100 tickets or whatever)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328026</id>
	<title>Re:What a lot of work.</title>
	<author>Hognoxious</author>
	<datestamp>1267530240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Wouldn't it have been easier just to make the money legitimately?</p></div></blockquote><p>Perhaps, if you're Celine Dion or George Lucas.</p><p>But 25 million would take quite a few years for most people to earn.</p><p>P.S. Did they do anything that was actually illegal?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Would n't it have been easier just to make the money legitimately ? Perhaps , if you 're Celine Dion or George Lucas.But 25 million would take quite a few years for most people to earn.P.S .
Did they do anything that was actually illegal ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wouldn't it have been easier just to make the money legitimately?Perhaps, if you're Celine Dion or George Lucas.But 25 million would take quite a few years for most people to earn.P.S.
Did they do anything that was actually illegal?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31327996</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31332066</id>
	<title>"the file ID of each CAPTCHA"?</title>
	<author>hondo77</author>
	<datestamp>1267554900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The geniuses at Ticketmaster saw nothing wrong with having each CAPTCHA image identified by the same ID over and over?</htmltext>
<tokenext>The geniuses at Ticketmaster saw nothing wrong with having each CAPTCHA image identified by the same ID over and over ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The geniuses at Ticketmaster saw nothing wrong with having each CAPTCHA image identified by the same ID over and over?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31333688</id>
	<title>Re:Dutch Auction</title>
	<author>kramerd</author>
	<datestamp>1267560720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem with that is that some events are popular (like sports and concerts). I know I am not going to fight the Friday night traffic in a big city, pay the $20 for parking, and then wait in a giant line for a couple of hours (days?) only to find out that the last ticket was sold 45 minutes ago and this line is actually for the bar next door that is showing a televised feed I could have watched at home.</p><p>I'm especially not going to take a vacation day on friday, drive to the city, paying for a hotel room that I have to book months in advance to guarantee a decent palce and end up not getting a ticket for the football game on Saturday because the guy in front of me is holding a spot for 50 people who show up while I sleep. From where I stand, paying ticketmaster a $12.50 robbery fee, $2.50 to print my own ticket (seriously, wtf, they have to update the sales server to recognize a sale, whether they mail it to me or I print it, so why the hell is it more expensive to print it instead of having them cover postage?!?!?), and 6.99 for shipping/handling even though I printed my ticket and I'm the only one handling it, is still better than buying from a scalper (or as you suggest, not getting a ticket at all).</p><p>No ticket presales means mostly locals with way, way too much free time get to go to popular events. Maybe I just wanted to spend 2 hours at a concert, not 8 hours in limbo for a 2 hour concert.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem with that is that some events are popular ( like sports and concerts ) .
I know I am not going to fight the Friday night traffic in a big city , pay the $ 20 for parking , and then wait in a giant line for a couple of hours ( days ?
) only to find out that the last ticket was sold 45 minutes ago and this line is actually for the bar next door that is showing a televised feed I could have watched at home.I 'm especially not going to take a vacation day on friday , drive to the city , paying for a hotel room that I have to book months in advance to guarantee a decent palce and end up not getting a ticket for the football game on Saturday because the guy in front of me is holding a spot for 50 people who show up while I sleep .
From where I stand , paying ticketmaster a $ 12.50 robbery fee , $ 2.50 to print my own ticket ( seriously , wtf , they have to update the sales server to recognize a sale , whether they mail it to me or I print it , so why the hell is it more expensive to print it instead of having them cover postage ? ! ? ! ?
) , and 6.99 for shipping/handling even though I printed my ticket and I 'm the only one handling it , is still better than buying from a scalper ( or as you suggest , not getting a ticket at all ) .No ticket presales means mostly locals with way , way too much free time get to go to popular events .
Maybe I just wanted to spend 2 hours at a concert , not 8 hours in limbo for a 2 hour concert .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem with that is that some events are popular (like sports and concerts).
I know I am not going to fight the Friday night traffic in a big city, pay the $20 for parking, and then wait in a giant line for a couple of hours (days?
) only to find out that the last ticket was sold 45 minutes ago and this line is actually for the bar next door that is showing a televised feed I could have watched at home.I'm especially not going to take a vacation day on friday, drive to the city, paying for a hotel room that I have to book months in advance to guarantee a decent palce and end up not getting a ticket for the football game on Saturday because the guy in front of me is holding a spot for 50 people who show up while I sleep.
From where I stand, paying ticketmaster a $12.50 robbery fee, $2.50 to print my own ticket (seriously, wtf, they have to update the sales server to recognize a sale, whether they mail it to me or I print it, so why the hell is it more expensive to print it instead of having them cover postage?!?!?
), and 6.99 for shipping/handling even though I printed my ticket and I'm the only one handling it, is still better than buying from a scalper (or as you suggest, not getting a ticket at all).No ticket presales means mostly locals with way, way too much free time get to go to popular events.
Maybe I just wanted to spend 2 hours at a concert, not 8 hours in limbo for a 2 hour concert.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329190</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329418</id>
	<title>Re:Are you telling me...</title>
	<author>Kurt Granroth</author>
	<datestamp>1267543260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Stubhub is owned by eBay, not Ticketmaster.  Ticketmaster owns TicketsNow.</p><p>So how do tickets "magically" appear on Stubhub, eBay, or TicketsNow before you can buy them retail?  Well, there are several ways.</p><p>First, some of the tickets for sale on the reseller sites don't yet exist.  The sellers are gambling that they will get the tickets before you need them.  This practice may soon be illegal (and I think already is in New Jersey).</p><p>The most common way, though, is via "presales".  See, tickets don't go on sale all at the same time.  The promoter, concert venue, and artist (and more) all get a certain number of tickets that they can sell before the official onsale date.  A common use for these are fanclub tickets.  That is, if you are part of the U2 fan club, then you are given the option of buying a certain number of tickets at (usually) a reduced price and before anybody else can buy them.  American Express often has some deals like this as well.  The end result is that a lot of the very best tickets are sold well before the tickets look like they are on sale at all.  Well, every ticket scalper is part of every fan club and do whatever it takes to be part of a "presale".  They then take their tickets to your favorite resale spot and voila, the ticket magically appears there before you could have bought it direct.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Stubhub is owned by eBay , not Ticketmaster .
Ticketmaster owns TicketsNow.So how do tickets " magically " appear on Stubhub , eBay , or TicketsNow before you can buy them retail ?
Well , there are several ways.First , some of the tickets for sale on the reseller sites do n't yet exist .
The sellers are gambling that they will get the tickets before you need them .
This practice may soon be illegal ( and I think already is in New Jersey ) .The most common way , though , is via " presales " .
See , tickets do n't go on sale all at the same time .
The promoter , concert venue , and artist ( and more ) all get a certain number of tickets that they can sell before the official onsale date .
A common use for these are fanclub tickets .
That is , if you are part of the U2 fan club , then you are given the option of buying a certain number of tickets at ( usually ) a reduced price and before anybody else can buy them .
American Express often has some deals like this as well .
The end result is that a lot of the very best tickets are sold well before the tickets look like they are on sale at all .
Well , every ticket scalper is part of every fan club and do whatever it takes to be part of a " presale " .
They then take their tickets to your favorite resale spot and voila , the ticket magically appears there before you could have bought it direct .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stubhub is owned by eBay, not Ticketmaster.
Ticketmaster owns TicketsNow.So how do tickets "magically" appear on Stubhub, eBay, or TicketsNow before you can buy them retail?
Well, there are several ways.First, some of the tickets for sale on the reseller sites don't yet exist.
The sellers are gambling that they will get the tickets before you need them.
This practice may soon be illegal (and I think already is in New Jersey).The most common way, though, is via "presales".
See, tickets don't go on sale all at the same time.
The promoter, concert venue, and artist (and more) all get a certain number of tickets that they can sell before the official onsale date.
A common use for these are fanclub tickets.
That is, if you are part of the U2 fan club, then you are given the option of buying a certain number of tickets at (usually) a reduced price and before anybody else can buy them.
American Express often has some deals like this as well.
The end result is that a lot of the very best tickets are sold well before the tickets look like they are on sale at all.
Well, every ticket scalper is part of every fan club and do whatever it takes to be part of a "presale".
They then take their tickets to your favorite resale spot and voila, the ticket magically appears there before you could have bought it direct.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329928</id>
	<title>Re:Just ban scalping...</title>
	<author>AmonTheMetalhead</author>
	<datestamp>1267545660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>They already limit the amount of tickets per person, fat load of good that'll do you when an organized scalper comes along with thousand different id's &amp; computers, they'll still swamp the queue preventing the real customer from getting a ticket.</htmltext>
<tokenext>They already limit the amount of tickets per person , fat load of good that 'll do you when an organized scalper comes along with thousand different id 's &amp; computers , they 'll still swamp the queue preventing the real customer from getting a ticket .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They already limit the amount of tickets per person, fat load of good that'll do you when an organized scalper comes along with thousand different id's &amp; computers, they'll still swamp the queue preventing the real customer from getting a ticket.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328272</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330300</id>
	<title>Illegal?</title>
	<author>iamacyborg</author>
	<datestamp>1267547580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>These guys were providing a service, ensuring that tickets are distributed based on who is the biggest fan and willing to pay the most, instead of who is the fastest to click a button.

The real problem is that the venue intentionally prices the tickets below the market price, so the demand for the tickets greatly exceeded the supply - leading to a demand for services like these guys provide.</htmltext>
<tokenext>These guys were providing a service , ensuring that tickets are distributed based on who is the biggest fan and willing to pay the most , instead of who is the fastest to click a button .
The real problem is that the venue intentionally prices the tickets below the market price , so the demand for the tickets greatly exceeded the supply - leading to a demand for services like these guys provide .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These guys were providing a service, ensuring that tickets are distributed based on who is the biggest fan and willing to pay the most, instead of who is the fastest to click a button.
The real problem is that the venue intentionally prices the tickets below the market price, so the demand for the tickets greatly exceeded the supply - leading to a demand for services like these guys provide.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31336394</id>
	<title>Re:We pass so many useless laws, why not one for t</title>
	<author>TheSync</author>
	<datestamp>1267527300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Hell why don't we just go all the way and print the purchasers name on the damned ticket and if you don't show up at the event with positive ID sorry out of luck.</i></p><p>Some artists (such as <a href="http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=11513359" title="wthr.com">Miley Cyrus</a> [wthr.com]) are insisting on "ticketless" ticketing, where you just show your credit card and ID at the venue.</p><p>There is a tension between artists who want to seem like anyone can buy a cheap ticket, the venues who dislike the variability of ticket sales, ticketing companies that make money by mitigating the risk to the venue, and brokers who mitigate the risk to the ticketers.  A "sure sell-out" artist like Miley Cyrus can do "no-scalping" ticketless ticketing, but most artists who may or may not sell out a venue could not get the venue to agree to ticketless ticketing without reselling.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hell why do n't we just go all the way and print the purchasers name on the damned ticket and if you do n't show up at the event with positive ID sorry out of luck.Some artists ( such as Miley Cyrus [ wthr.com ] ) are insisting on " ticketless " ticketing , where you just show your credit card and ID at the venue.There is a tension between artists who want to seem like anyone can buy a cheap ticket , the venues who dislike the variability of ticket sales , ticketing companies that make money by mitigating the risk to the venue , and brokers who mitigate the risk to the ticketers .
A " sure sell-out " artist like Miley Cyrus can do " no-scalping " ticketless ticketing , but most artists who may or may not sell out a venue could not get the venue to agree to ticketless ticketing without reselling .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hell why don't we just go all the way and print the purchasers name on the damned ticket and if you don't show up at the event with positive ID sorry out of luck.Some artists (such as Miley Cyrus [wthr.com]) are insisting on "ticketless" ticketing, where you just show your credit card and ID at the venue.There is a tension between artists who want to seem like anyone can buy a cheap ticket, the venues who dislike the variability of ticket sales, ticketing companies that make money by mitigating the risk to the venue, and brokers who mitigate the risk to the ticketers.
A "sure sell-out" artist like Miley Cyrus can do "no-scalping" ticketless ticketing, but most artists who may or may not sell out a venue could not get the venue to agree to ticketless ticketing without reselling.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328930</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329940</id>
	<title>Re:This is pretty ridiculous...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267545720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Agree.
<br>
<br>
They're basically doing what Ticketmaster and Tickets.com are doing. Get the tickets from the acts and resell them + "Convenience Charge"
<br>
<br>
Convenience Charge
This fee covers costs that allow Ticketmaster to provide the widest range of available tickets while giving you multiple ways to purchase. Tickets are available in many neighborhoods via local ticket outlet locations, our telephone reservation system and Ticketmaster.com. Tickets can be purchased through at least one distribution channel virtually 24 hours a day. The convenience charge varies by event and is determined by negotiations with arena operators, promoters and others, based on costs for each event.
<br>
<br>
Last 2-3 times I bought tickets from them the Convenience Charge is 80-150\% of face value. How is that not scalping?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Agree .
They 're basically doing what Ticketmaster and Tickets.com are doing .
Get the tickets from the acts and resell them + " Convenience Charge " Convenience Charge This fee covers costs that allow Ticketmaster to provide the widest range of available tickets while giving you multiple ways to purchase .
Tickets are available in many neighborhoods via local ticket outlet locations , our telephone reservation system and Ticketmaster.com .
Tickets can be purchased through at least one distribution channel virtually 24 hours a day .
The convenience charge varies by event and is determined by negotiations with arena operators , promoters and others , based on costs for each event .
Last 2-3 times I bought tickets from them the Convenience Charge is 80-150 \ % of face value .
How is that not scalping ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agree.
They're basically doing what Ticketmaster and Tickets.com are doing.
Get the tickets from the acts and resell them + "Convenience Charge"


Convenience Charge
This fee covers costs that allow Ticketmaster to provide the widest range of available tickets while giving you multiple ways to purchase.
Tickets are available in many neighborhoods via local ticket outlet locations, our telephone reservation system and Ticketmaster.com.
Tickets can be purchased through at least one distribution channel virtually 24 hours a day.
The convenience charge varies by event and is determined by negotiations with arena operators, promoters and others, based on costs for each event.
Last 2-3 times I bought tickets from them the Convenience Charge is 80-150\% of face value.
How is that not scalping?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328142</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31343878</id>
	<title>Re:Random ID</title>
	<author>metaforest</author>
	<datestamp>1267623600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are forgetting that one could cache an MD5 hash of the image and have a pretty good chance of identifying that image regardless of it's image URL or request information, simply based on it's content.  Apparently ReCAPTCHA was flawed in a number of different ways, and WiseGuys and others have apparently learned to exploit that weakness through straight-forward data-mining, and strategic IP and code theft.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are forgetting that one could cache an MD5 hash of the image and have a pretty good chance of identifying that image regardless of it 's image URL or request information , simply based on it 's content .
Apparently ReCAPTCHA was flawed in a number of different ways , and WiseGuys and others have apparently learned to exploit that weakness through straight-forward data-mining , and strategic IP and code theft .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are forgetting that one could cache an MD5 hash of the image and have a pretty good chance of identifying that image regardless of it's image URL or request information, simply based on it's content.
Apparently ReCAPTCHA was flawed in a number of different ways, and WiseGuys and others have apparently learned to exploit that weakness through straight-forward data-mining, and strategic IP and code theft.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328728</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328336</id>
	<title>Re:Dutch Auction</title>
	<author>oever</author>
	<datestamp>1267534500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The 'clock' in a dutch auction takes about 30 seconds to go to zero. That means that a sequential auction for 100.000 tickets would take about a month. That should give all people interested ample opportunity to attempt to buy a ticket at the desired price.</p><p>However, just like the stock exchange, the day price of a ticket would depend on psychological factors. That means that the price would fluctuate and the a price that is perceived high one day is percieved low another day. This creates opportunity for ticket trading.</p><p>A better system for the artists would be to do parallel ebay-style bidding. You start by bidding $10 and if there are less people bidding more than $10 than there are tickets, you get a ticket. At a specified time the bidding is frozen and you either have a ticket or not.</p><p>For the concert-goers, this system has the disadvantage that they are not sure of a ticket until the bidding expires.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The 'clock ' in a dutch auction takes about 30 seconds to go to zero .
That means that a sequential auction for 100.000 tickets would take about a month .
That should give all people interested ample opportunity to attempt to buy a ticket at the desired price.However , just like the stock exchange , the day price of a ticket would depend on psychological factors .
That means that the price would fluctuate and the a price that is perceived high one day is percieved low another day .
This creates opportunity for ticket trading.A better system for the artists would be to do parallel ebay-style bidding .
You start by bidding $ 10 and if there are less people bidding more than $ 10 than there are tickets , you get a ticket .
At a specified time the bidding is frozen and you either have a ticket or not.For the concert-goers , this system has the disadvantage that they are not sure of a ticket until the bidding expires .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The 'clock' in a dutch auction takes about 30 seconds to go to zero.
That means that a sequential auction for 100.000 tickets would take about a month.
That should give all people interested ample opportunity to attempt to buy a ticket at the desired price.However, just like the stock exchange, the day price of a ticket would depend on psychological factors.
That means that the price would fluctuate and the a price that is perceived high one day is percieved low another day.
This creates opportunity for ticket trading.A better system for the artists would be to do parallel ebay-style bidding.
You start by bidding $10 and if there are less people bidding more than $10 than there are tickets, you get a ticket.
At a specified time the bidding is frozen and you either have a ticket or not.For the concert-goers, this system has the disadvantage that they are not sure of a ticket until the bidding expires.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328364</id>
	<title>Bigger scum than TicketMaster in same business!</title>
	<author>Kaz Kylheku</author>
	<datestamp>1267534800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wow<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,,,,</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow ,,,,</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow ,,,,</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31333302</id>
	<title>Ticketmaster did it too, only worse</title>
	<author>freelunch</author>
	<datestamp>1267559160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The FTC gave TM a slap on the wrist for doing the same thing, and then they approved TM's acquisition of Live Nation.  Their conduct was arguably much worse.</p><p> <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/19/arts/music/19ticket.html" title="nytimes.com">Ticketmaster Reaches Settlement on Complaints of Deceptive Sales</a> [nytimes.com]<br><i><br>The Federal Trade Commission has reached a settlement with Ticketmaster over complaints that the company used deceptive tactics to steer Bruce Springsteen fans to more expensive tickets through its own reseller last year.</i></p><p><i>The complaints stemmed from 14 Bruce Springsteen concerts last year where fans were steered to a Web site with inflated prices.</i></p><p><i>The settlement, announced Tuesday by the F.T.C.'s chairman, Jon Leibowitz, came after an investigation into 14 Springsteen concerts last May and June in which thousands of customers on Ticketmaster's Web site were pointed to TicketsNow.com, an eBay-like resale marketplace with no price caps, that offered similar tickets at inflated prices.</i></p><p><i>In some cases, brokers on TicketsNow advertised tickets they did not have, and the fans never got the tickets they paid for.</i></p><p><i>Under the terms of the settlement, Ticketmaster must pay refunds to fans and disclose the availability of tickets it resells through its subsidiary.</i></p><p><i>"TicketsNow.com sold phantom tickets without letting consumers know that the tickets did not exist," Mr. Leibowitz said in a statement. "Then, the company held onto consumers' money, sometimes for months, when it knew those fans weren't going to see Springsteen. Clearly consumers deserve better. They deserve to know what they're buying, including the risk that their tickets won't materialize."<br></i></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The FTC gave TM a slap on the wrist for doing the same thing , and then they approved TM 's acquisition of Live Nation .
Their conduct was arguably much worse .
Ticketmaster Reaches Settlement on Complaints of Deceptive Sales [ nytimes.com ] The Federal Trade Commission has reached a settlement with Ticketmaster over complaints that the company used deceptive tactics to steer Bruce Springsteen fans to more expensive tickets through its own reseller last year.The complaints stemmed from 14 Bruce Springsteen concerts last year where fans were steered to a Web site with inflated prices.The settlement , announced Tuesday by the F.T.C .
's chairman , Jon Leibowitz , came after an investigation into 14 Springsteen concerts last May and June in which thousands of customers on Ticketmaster 's Web site were pointed to TicketsNow.com , an eBay-like resale marketplace with no price caps , that offered similar tickets at inflated prices.In some cases , brokers on TicketsNow advertised tickets they did not have , and the fans never got the tickets they paid for.Under the terms of the settlement , Ticketmaster must pay refunds to fans and disclose the availability of tickets it resells through its subsidiary .
" TicketsNow.com sold phantom tickets without letting consumers know that the tickets did not exist , " Mr. Leibowitz said in a statement .
" Then , the company held onto consumers ' money , sometimes for months , when it knew those fans were n't going to see Springsteen .
Clearly consumers deserve better .
They deserve to know what they 're buying , including the risk that their tickets wo n't materialize .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The FTC gave TM a slap on the wrist for doing the same thing, and then they approved TM's acquisition of Live Nation.
Their conduct was arguably much worse.
Ticketmaster Reaches Settlement on Complaints of Deceptive Sales [nytimes.com]The Federal Trade Commission has reached a settlement with Ticketmaster over complaints that the company used deceptive tactics to steer Bruce Springsteen fans to more expensive tickets through its own reseller last year.The complaints stemmed from 14 Bruce Springsteen concerts last year where fans were steered to a Web site with inflated prices.The settlement, announced Tuesday by the F.T.C.
's chairman, Jon Leibowitz, came after an investigation into 14 Springsteen concerts last May and June in which thousands of customers on Ticketmaster's Web site were pointed to TicketsNow.com, an eBay-like resale marketplace with no price caps, that offered similar tickets at inflated prices.In some cases, brokers on TicketsNow advertised tickets they did not have, and the fans never got the tickets they paid for.Under the terms of the settlement, Ticketmaster must pay refunds to fans and disclose the availability of tickets it resells through its subsidiary.
"TicketsNow.com sold phantom tickets without letting consumers know that the tickets did not exist," Mr. Leibowitz said in a statement.
"Then, the company held onto consumers' money, sometimes for months, when it knew those fans weren't going to see Springsteen.
Clearly consumers deserve better.
They deserve to know what they're buying, including the risk that their tickets won't materialize.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328266</id>
	<title>So..</title>
	<author>bunkymag</author>
	<datestamp>1267533480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>.. how much did Ticketmaster make over the period through mark-ups and their ridiculous "handling fees"?</htmltext>
<tokenext>.. how much did Ticketmaster make over the period through mark-ups and their ridiculous " handling fees " ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>.. how much did Ticketmaster make over the period through mark-ups and their ridiculous "handling fees"?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31327996</id>
	<title>What a lot of work.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267529760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wouldn't it have been easier just to make the money legitimately?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Would n't it have been easier just to make the money legitimately ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wouldn't it have been easier just to make the money legitimately?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328474</id>
	<title>Wangmeo</title>
	<author>wangmeo</author>
	<datestamp>1267536540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Good jobs
<a href="http://www.hayvui.com/" title="hayvui.com" rel="nofollow"> </a> [hayvui.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Good jobs [ hayvui.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good jobs
  [hayvui.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328896</id>
	<title>Re:Are you telling me...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267540320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Stop the presses: some thing you want to buy costs more than you want to pay. Boo hoo.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Stop the presses : some thing you want to buy costs more than you want to pay .
Boo hoo .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stop the presses: some thing you want to buy costs more than you want to pay.
Boo hoo.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31336430</id>
	<title>Bag of Crap - Calendar Edition</title>
	<author>Fnord666</author>
	<datestamp>1267527540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe Ticketmaster could use the same response that woot.com used recently.  It seems that every know and then woot.com offers a "bag of crap" for sale.  The shipment contains random stuff, but is almost always a good deal.  So good, in fact, that a significant number of wooters have automated buying scripts that look for these deals.  When one comes along, they sell out in seconds.  One day not long ago, woot offered for sale a "bag of crap - calendar edition" or something similar.  The scripts matched on the text and bought as quick as a flash.  I don't know how many warehouses of desk calendars woot was able to get rid of, but it was spectacular.
</p><p>
Ticketmaster just needs to price all tickets at $10,000 each for the first 10 minutes.  See how many of these tickets the automation buys.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe Ticketmaster could use the same response that woot.com used recently .
It seems that every know and then woot.com offers a " bag of crap " for sale .
The shipment contains random stuff , but is almost always a good deal .
So good , in fact , that a significant number of wooters have automated buying scripts that look for these deals .
When one comes along , they sell out in seconds .
One day not long ago , woot offered for sale a " bag of crap - calendar edition " or something similar .
The scripts matched on the text and bought as quick as a flash .
I do n't know how many warehouses of desk calendars woot was able to get rid of , but it was spectacular .
Ticketmaster just needs to price all tickets at $ 10,000 each for the first 10 minutes .
See how many of these tickets the automation buys .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe Ticketmaster could use the same response that woot.com used recently.
It seems that every know and then woot.com offers a "bag of crap" for sale.
The shipment contains random stuff, but is almost always a good deal.
So good, in fact, that a significant number of wooters have automated buying scripts that look for these deals.
When one comes along, they sell out in seconds.
One day not long ago, woot offered for sale a "bag of crap - calendar edition" or something similar.
The scripts matched on the text and bought as quick as a flash.
I don't know how many warehouses of desk calendars woot was able to get rid of, but it was spectacular.
Ticketmaster just needs to price all tickets at $10,000 each for the first 10 minutes.
See how many of these tickets the automation buys.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_14</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329780
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_26</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330652
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_7</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31367540
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330478
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328142
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330310
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_20</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31336240
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_18</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31336394
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328930
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_2</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328026
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31327996
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_8</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328770
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_24</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31336458
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_23</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329704
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328336
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_5</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328216
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_28</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328896
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_27</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31336306
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330396
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_0</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329940
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328142
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_21</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31331580
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329190
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_9</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329110
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328128
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_25</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328372
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_1</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328482
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328128
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_11</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328466
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328272
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_15</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328348
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328272
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_12</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328032
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31327996
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_19</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329928
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328272
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_16</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329418
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_13</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328418
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328128
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_10</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31339428
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328272
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_6</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328436
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_22</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31332536
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_17</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31333688
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329190
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_02_0135238_3</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31343878
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328728
</commentlist>
</thread>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_02_0135238.1</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328930
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31336394
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_02_0135238.6</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328160
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_02_0135238.4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31327996
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328032
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328026
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_02_0135238.13</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330300
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_02_0135238.7</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328728
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31343878
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_02_0135238.11</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31331222
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_02_0135238.5</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328272
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329928
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328348
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328466
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31339428
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_02_0135238.12</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328126
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328216
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328336
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329704
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328436
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329190
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31333688
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31331580
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328372
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31336458
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328770
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_02_0135238.10</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330396
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31336306
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_02_0135238.8</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328858
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_02_0135238.2</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328276
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328896
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329780
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330652
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330310
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329418
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31336240
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31332536
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_02_0135238.0</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328266
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_02_0135238.9</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328128
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328418
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329110
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328482
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_02_0135238.3</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31328142
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31329940
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31330478
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_0135238.31367540
</commentlist>
</conversation>
