<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_02_23_2236254</id>
	<title>Criminals Hide Payment-Card Skimmers In Gas Pumps</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1266928560000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>tugfoigel writes <i>"A wave of recent bank-card skimming incidents demonstrate how sophisticated the scam has become. Criminals <a href="http://www.darkreading.com/database\_security/security/attacks/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=223100233">hid bank card-skimming devices inside gas pumps</a> &mdash; in at least one case, even completely replacing the front panel of a pump &mdash; in a recent wave of attacks that demonstrate a more sophisticated, insidious method of stealing money from unsuspecting victims filling up their gas tanks. Some 180 gas stations in Utah, from Salt Lake City to Provo, were reportedly found with these skimming devices sitting inside the gas pumps. The scam was first discovered when a California bank's fraud department discovered that multiple bank card victims reporting problems had all used the same gas pump at a 7-Eleven store in Utah."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>tugfoigel writes " A wave of recent bank-card skimming incidents demonstrate how sophisticated the scam has become .
Criminals hid bank card-skimming devices inside gas pumps    in at least one case , even completely replacing the front panel of a pump    in a recent wave of attacks that demonstrate a more sophisticated , insidious method of stealing money from unsuspecting victims filling up their gas tanks .
Some 180 gas stations in Utah , from Salt Lake City to Provo , were reportedly found with these skimming devices sitting inside the gas pumps .
The scam was first discovered when a California bank 's fraud department discovered that multiple bank card victims reporting problems had all used the same gas pump at a 7-Eleven store in Utah .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>tugfoigel writes "A wave of recent bank-card skimming incidents demonstrate how sophisticated the scam has become.
Criminals hid bank card-skimming devices inside gas pumps — in at least one case, even completely replacing the front panel of a pump — in a recent wave of attacks that demonstrate a more sophisticated, insidious method of stealing money from unsuspecting victims filling up their gas tanks.
Some 180 gas stations in Utah, from Salt Lake City to Provo, were reportedly found with these skimming devices sitting inside the gas pumps.
The scam was first discovered when a California bank's fraud department discovered that multiple bank card victims reporting problems had all used the same gas pump at a 7-Eleven store in Utah.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255194</id>
	<title>Re:Never use Debit</title>
	<author>Nimey</author>
	<datestamp>1266943860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My ATM card can also be run as a credit card -- so gas stations don't need my PIN, and never ask for it.  Retailers will usually run it as an ATM card &amp; require a PIN (saves them a small percent per transaction), while restaurants always do it as a credit card.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My ATM card can also be run as a credit card -- so gas stations do n't need my PIN , and never ask for it .
Retailers will usually run it as an ATM card &amp; require a PIN ( saves them a small percent per transaction ) , while restaurants always do it as a credit card .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My ATM card can also be run as a credit card -- so gas stations don't need my PIN, and never ask for it.
Retailers will usually run it as an ATM card &amp; require a PIN (saves them a small percent per transaction), while restaurants always do it as a credit card.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31257160</id>
	<title>Re:Who is the victim?</title>
	<author>L4t3r4lu5</author>
	<datestamp>1265107500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I love this skit<br> <br> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E" title="youtube.com">Mitchel and Webb - Identity Theft</a> [youtube.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>I love this skit Mitchel and Webb - Identity Theft [ youtube.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I love this skit  Mitchel and Webb - Identity Theft [youtube.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253686</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31258130</id>
	<title>cell phones</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265118720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>since most people have cell phones why not require banks to txt your phone with a verification query for every transaction with the options of verify, refuse, refuse and i think my info was stolen, refuse and have a card rep call me when available.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>since most people have cell phones why not require banks to txt your phone with a verification query for every transaction with the options of verify , refuse , refuse and i think my info was stolen , refuse and have a card rep call me when available .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>since most people have cell phones why not require banks to txt your phone with a verification query for every transaction with the options of verify, refuse, refuse and i think my info was stolen, refuse and have a card rep call me when available.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31256474</id>
	<title>Finally remove the MagSwipe and move to EMV</title>
	<author>DeBaas</author>
	<datestamp>1265142420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Banks should make some haste an move to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">EMV</a> [wikipedia.org]. SmartCards cannot be skimmed. Smartcard can be cracked, but usually that's for cheap smartcards with some old and proprietary encryption method. EMV is much safer. There are currently some <a href="http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/banking/nopin/" title="cam.ac.uk" rel="nofollow">ways to abuse EMV</a> [cam.ac.uk] , but it currently requires a stolen card and a man in the middle attack that puts the criminal at much greater risk than skimming</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Banks should make some haste an move to EMV [ wikipedia.org ] .
SmartCards can not be skimmed .
Smartcard can be cracked , but usually that 's for cheap smartcards with some old and proprietary encryption method .
EMV is much safer .
There are currently some ways to abuse EMV [ cam.ac.uk ] , but it currently requires a stolen card and a man in the middle attack that puts the criminal at much greater risk than skimming</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Banks should make some haste an move to EMV [wikipedia.org].
SmartCards cannot be skimmed.
Smartcard can be cracked, but usually that's for cheap smartcards with some old and proprietary encryption method.
EMV is much safer.
There are currently some ways to abuse EMV [cam.ac.uk] , but it currently requires a stolen card and a man in the middle attack that puts the criminal at much greater risk than skimming</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31256328</id>
	<title>This is not new been happening a while not</title>
	<author>Zebai</author>
	<datestamp>1266955080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This problem has existed for many years now. It is almost impossible to identify a machine that has one of these as most of these machines are inside the actual pump on the interior of the swiper, they are able to do this because the actual locking mechanism that keeps the machine secure almost always a generic lock who's key will fit not only every lock at that gas station, but probably a good 1/4 of all the gas pump locks in a city. I remember seeing a video with a reporter some years ago and they showed how such things are installed and the guy had the thing unlocked, installed, and drove away in not even 2 minutes.</p><p>The technology is a little more resistant than it used to be, requiring the input of a zip code or a pin makes getting it harder but not impossible , just make sure your covering your keystrokes when you put that info in as its possible your being watched by binoculars or a camera with a telephoto so they can pickup your pin info.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This problem has existed for many years now .
It is almost impossible to identify a machine that has one of these as most of these machines are inside the actual pump on the interior of the swiper , they are able to do this because the actual locking mechanism that keeps the machine secure almost always a generic lock who 's key will fit not only every lock at that gas station , but probably a good 1/4 of all the gas pump locks in a city .
I remember seeing a video with a reporter some years ago and they showed how such things are installed and the guy had the thing unlocked , installed , and drove away in not even 2 minutes.The technology is a little more resistant than it used to be , requiring the input of a zip code or a pin makes getting it harder but not impossible , just make sure your covering your keystrokes when you put that info in as its possible your being watched by binoculars or a camera with a telephoto so they can pickup your pin info .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This problem has existed for many years now.
It is almost impossible to identify a machine that has one of these as most of these machines are inside the actual pump on the interior of the swiper, they are able to do this because the actual locking mechanism that keeps the machine secure almost always a generic lock who's key will fit not only every lock at that gas station, but probably a good 1/4 of all the gas pump locks in a city.
I remember seeing a video with a reporter some years ago and they showed how such things are installed and the guy had the thing unlocked, installed, and drove away in not even 2 minutes.The technology is a little more resistant than it used to be, requiring the input of a zip code or a pin makes getting it harder but not impossible , just make sure your covering your keystrokes when you put that info in as its possible your being watched by binoculars or a camera with a telephoto so they can pickup your pin info.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31254482</id>
	<title>Re:Nothing New</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266938700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The move to "Chip" cards ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip\_card[/url]) are rapidly increasing these days. I know my local credit union is fully switched over, although maybe half of the retailers in town actually support them.</p></div><p>The Chip &amp; PIN card system is broken:</p><p>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2010/02/11/chip-and-pin-is-broken/</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The move to " Chip " cards ( [ url ] http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip \ _card [ /url ] ) are rapidly increasing these days .
I know my local credit union is fully switched over , although maybe half of the retailers in town actually support them.The Chip &amp; PIN card system is broken : http : //www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2010/02/11/chip-and-pin-is-broken/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The move to "Chip" cards ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip\_card[/url]) are rapidly increasing these days.
I know my local credit union is fully switched over, although maybe half of the retailers in town actually support them.The Chip &amp; PIN card system is broken:http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2010/02/11/chip-and-pin-is-broken/
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253656</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31254304</id>
	<title>Re:Leave it to california</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266937560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How does that differ from the nanny conservatives watching everything you <i> <b>want</b> </i> to do?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How does that differ from the nanny conservatives watching everything you want to do ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How does that differ from the nanny conservatives watching everything you  want  to do?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253976</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31256644</id>
	<title>Re:Russian mob was doing this in the 1990's</title>
	<author>Bent Mind</author>
	<datestamp>1265101200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Paying clerks $6.00 an hour to work from midnight to 8:00AM</p></div><p>They still have those? I thought they replaced them all with card readers years ago.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Paying clerks $ 6.00 an hour to work from midnight to 8 : 00AMThey still have those ?
I thought they replaced them all with card readers years ago .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Paying clerks $6.00 an hour to work from midnight to 8:00AMThey still have those?
I thought they replaced them all with card readers years ago.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253648</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253936</id>
	<title>definitely an inside job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266935040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>taking it to a new level, of course</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>taking it to a new level , of course</tokentext>
<sentencetext>taking it to a new level, of course</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253670</id>
	<title>Encrypt the data for starters</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266933660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>PCI (Payment Card Industry) will deal with this eventually, as traffic should be encrypted from the reader to the backoffice server or whatever brokers the transaction to the payment processor. What needs to be done is encrypt the card information at the reader at the pump, even if the information is transmitted via serial connection (out of PCI scope today). Prudent companies keep the keys to the gas pumps secure as well as do at least daily checks on the pumps (crack the box, look for skimmer).<br>I suspect this type of skimming is more prevalent that is getting press for.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>PCI ( Payment Card Industry ) will deal with this eventually , as traffic should be encrypted from the reader to the backoffice server or whatever brokers the transaction to the payment processor .
What needs to be done is encrypt the card information at the reader at the pump , even if the information is transmitted via serial connection ( out of PCI scope today ) .
Prudent companies keep the keys to the gas pumps secure as well as do at least daily checks on the pumps ( crack the box , look for skimmer ) .I suspect this type of skimming is more prevalent that is getting press for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PCI (Payment Card Industry) will deal with this eventually, as traffic should be encrypted from the reader to the backoffice server or whatever brokers the transaction to the payment processor.
What needs to be done is encrypt the card information at the reader at the pump, even if the information is transmitted via serial connection (out of PCI scope today).
Prudent companies keep the keys to the gas pumps secure as well as do at least daily checks on the pumps (crack the box, look for skimmer).I suspect this type of skimming is more prevalent that is getting press for.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31254658</id>
	<title>Here's a wild concept...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266939960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Use Cash! F*ck all this electronic transfer stuff that banks and others haven't learned to protect yet!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Use Cash !
F * ck all this electronic transfer stuff that banks and others have n't learned to protect yet !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Use Cash!
F*ck all this electronic transfer stuff that banks and others haven't learned to protect yet!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31279848</id>
	<title>Re:Russian mob was doing this in the 1990's</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267103280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And the other half is violence.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And the other half is violence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And the other half is violence.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255192</id>
	<title>its uncovering media bias against hackers</title>
	<author>decora</author>
	<datestamp>1266943800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>these people are not criminals. they are simply pointing out to people how easy it is for you to get ripped off by credit card scanners. by<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. you know. ripping you off with a credit card scanner.</htmltext>
<tokenext>these people are not criminals .
they are simply pointing out to people how easy it is for you to get ripped off by credit card scanners .
by .. you know .
ripping you off with a credit card scanner .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>these people are not criminals.
they are simply pointing out to people how easy it is for you to get ripped off by credit card scanners.
by .. you know.
ripping you off with a credit card scanner.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253428</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255080</id>
	<title>Re:Who is the victim?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266942840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>These banks and merchants have created a system that is weak and exploitable that uses its customers as a buffer and even a shield against those weaknesses. You cannot protect your "secret information" so long as it must be shared in order to use it.</i></p><p>Yup - the whole system is flawed.  There is no reason that the card reader needs to be a trusted device.</p><p>The credit card should be a smartcard with an embedded RSA key.  The card reader gives the card a transaction.  The card displays the amount of the transaction on a built-in display, and the owner enters a PIN directly into a keypad on the card.  If the PIN is correct, the card signs the transaction with a unique signature ID and a timestamp.  The card reader passes the transaction back to the bank, which verifies the signature and then relays back a signed transaction cleared message, at which point the item is sold or pump turns on or whatever (for pre-authorizations like with a gas pump obviously the transaction needs to be tweaked a bit, but probably not a big deal).</p><p>In such a model no component of the system is trusted at all, except for the smartcard (which the owner controls) and the bank (which the bank controls).  The card reader is welcome to log every byte that passes through it, but it can't create another signed transaction without the key.  Replay attacks are prevented by the signature ID - the bank would never accept the same ID twice.</p><p>Credit cards are completely insecure.  Anybody who can look at the card already has enough information to clone it.  You don't even need to read the magnetic stripe - you just have a camera grab the numbers on both side you have enough info to clone the card.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>These banks and merchants have created a system that is weak and exploitable that uses its customers as a buffer and even a shield against those weaknesses .
You can not protect your " secret information " so long as it must be shared in order to use it.Yup - the whole system is flawed .
There is no reason that the card reader needs to be a trusted device.The credit card should be a smartcard with an embedded RSA key .
The card reader gives the card a transaction .
The card displays the amount of the transaction on a built-in display , and the owner enters a PIN directly into a keypad on the card .
If the PIN is correct , the card signs the transaction with a unique signature ID and a timestamp .
The card reader passes the transaction back to the bank , which verifies the signature and then relays back a signed transaction cleared message , at which point the item is sold or pump turns on or whatever ( for pre-authorizations like with a gas pump obviously the transaction needs to be tweaked a bit , but probably not a big deal ) .In such a model no component of the system is trusted at all , except for the smartcard ( which the owner controls ) and the bank ( which the bank controls ) .
The card reader is welcome to log every byte that passes through it , but it ca n't create another signed transaction without the key .
Replay attacks are prevented by the signature ID - the bank would never accept the same ID twice.Credit cards are completely insecure .
Anybody who can look at the card already has enough information to clone it .
You do n't even need to read the magnetic stripe - you just have a camera grab the numbers on both side you have enough info to clone the card .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These banks and merchants have created a system that is weak and exploitable that uses its customers as a buffer and even a shield against those weaknesses.
You cannot protect your "secret information" so long as it must be shared in order to use it.Yup - the whole system is flawed.
There is no reason that the card reader needs to be a trusted device.The credit card should be a smartcard with an embedded RSA key.
The card reader gives the card a transaction.
The card displays the amount of the transaction on a built-in display, and the owner enters a PIN directly into a keypad on the card.
If the PIN is correct, the card signs the transaction with a unique signature ID and a timestamp.
The card reader passes the transaction back to the bank, which verifies the signature and then relays back a signed transaction cleared message, at which point the item is sold or pump turns on or whatever (for pre-authorizations like with a gas pump obviously the transaction needs to be tweaked a bit, but probably not a big deal).In such a model no component of the system is trusted at all, except for the smartcard (which the owner controls) and the bank (which the bank controls).
The card reader is welcome to log every byte that passes through it, but it can't create another signed transaction without the key.
Replay attacks are prevented by the signature ID - the bank would never accept the same ID twice.Credit cards are completely insecure.
Anybody who can look at the card already has enough information to clone it.
You don't even need to read the magnetic stripe - you just have a camera grab the numbers on both side you have enough info to clone the card.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253686</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31257248</id>
	<title>Re:How to solve this for good</title>
	<author>jimicus</author>
	<datestamp>1265108520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wow, what an amazing and original idea.  You should sell it to Mastercard - you'd make a fortune.</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip\_and\_PIN" title="wikipedia.org">Oh, wait... </a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow , what an amazing and original idea .
You should sell it to Mastercard - you 'd make a fortune.Oh , wait... [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow, what an amazing and original idea.
You should sell it to Mastercard - you'd make a fortune.Oh, wait...  [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255220</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31258730</id>
	<title>After all these years...</title>
	<author>osgeek</author>
	<datestamp>1265123220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... there's still no legal mandate to provide digital signatures for credit card transactions!  Why?</p><p>Signing smart cards have been around for well over a decade.  Smart phones could easily handle the duty and give you a processing/verification module that is really tough for a criminal to tamper with.</p><p>It goes like this:</p><p>1. You step up to the register/pump and identify your payment device.  An iPhone can display a bar code with a public key, so that would work well.  Heck, the iPhone camera can even read a bar code off the counter to get the register's public key, but that might be overkill.<br>2. The register uses the bar code identity to encrypt the payment details.<br>3. The iPhone owner approves the transaction, most likely entering a PIN.<br>4. The iPhone sends a strong digital signature of the approved transaction to the register.<br>5. The store/gas station must submit all digital signatures to the bank to get any payment.</p><p>DONE!</p><p>Tractor trailer sized holes that lead to credit card fraud could be sealed.</p><p>What is the friggin' problem here?</p><p>Oh yeah, credit card companies write off the fraud so it doesn't hurt them too much.  Consumers aren't held responsible for using credit card companies that refuse to upgrade their infrastructure.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... there 's still no legal mandate to provide digital signatures for credit card transactions !
Why ? Signing smart cards have been around for well over a decade .
Smart phones could easily handle the duty and give you a processing/verification module that is really tough for a criminal to tamper with.It goes like this : 1 .
You step up to the register/pump and identify your payment device .
An iPhone can display a bar code with a public key , so that would work well .
Heck , the iPhone camera can even read a bar code off the counter to get the register 's public key , but that might be overkill.2 .
The register uses the bar code identity to encrypt the payment details.3 .
The iPhone owner approves the transaction , most likely entering a PIN.4 .
The iPhone sends a strong digital signature of the approved transaction to the register.5 .
The store/gas station must submit all digital signatures to the bank to get any payment.DONE ! Tractor trailer sized holes that lead to credit card fraud could be sealed.What is the friggin ' problem here ? Oh yeah , credit card companies write off the fraud so it does n't hurt them too much .
Consumers are n't held responsible for using credit card companies that refuse to upgrade their infrastructure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... there's still no legal mandate to provide digital signatures for credit card transactions!
Why?Signing smart cards have been around for well over a decade.
Smart phones could easily handle the duty and give you a processing/verification module that is really tough for a criminal to tamper with.It goes like this:1.
You step up to the register/pump and identify your payment device.
An iPhone can display a bar code with a public key, so that would work well.
Heck, the iPhone camera can even read a bar code off the counter to get the register's public key, but that might be overkill.2.
The register uses the bar code identity to encrypt the payment details.3.
The iPhone owner approves the transaction, most likely entering a PIN.4.
The iPhone sends a strong digital signature of the approved transaction to the register.5.
The store/gas station must submit all digital signatures to the bank to get any payment.DONE!Tractor trailer sized holes that lead to credit card fraud could be sealed.What is the friggin' problem here?Oh yeah, credit card companies write off the fraud so it doesn't hurt them too much.
Consumers aren't held responsible for using credit card companies that refuse to upgrade their infrastructure.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255310</id>
	<title>Because carrying around big wad of cash is safe</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266944640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At the end of the day, I would rather have my credit card swiped and have the bank cover any fraud charges than carry around a wad of cash.  The single most dangerous activity you will do regularly is withdraw cash from an ATM that is slightly hidden or in a dark area.  I swipe my card safe in the knowledge that my bank will cover any fraud.</p><p>Yes, I've had my debit card used fraudulently for about $700 and the bank reversed the charges immediately.  I was out the money for about 30 minutes beyond the time I first discovered.</p><p>I also use the service from my bank that texts me when I use my card.  I know two people who were able to stop a fraud transaction within minutes of it actually happening by seeing the alerts.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At the end of the day , I would rather have my credit card swiped and have the bank cover any fraud charges than carry around a wad of cash .
The single most dangerous activity you will do regularly is withdraw cash from an ATM that is slightly hidden or in a dark area .
I swipe my card safe in the knowledge that my bank will cover any fraud.Yes , I 've had my debit card used fraudulently for about $ 700 and the bank reversed the charges immediately .
I was out the money for about 30 minutes beyond the time I first discovered.I also use the service from my bank that texts me when I use my card .
I know two people who were able to stop a fraud transaction within minutes of it actually happening by seeing the alerts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At the end of the day, I would rather have my credit card swiped and have the bank cover any fraud charges than carry around a wad of cash.
The single most dangerous activity you will do regularly is withdraw cash from an ATM that is slightly hidden or in a dark area.
I swipe my card safe in the knowledge that my bank will cover any fraud.Yes, I've had my debit card used fraudulently for about $700 and the bank reversed the charges immediately.
I was out the money for about 30 minutes beyond the time I first discovered.I also use the service from my bank that texts me when I use my card.
I know two people who were able to stop a fraud transaction within minutes of it actually happening by seeing the alerts.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253920</id>
	<title>New SCO business model.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266934980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think we found the method SCO is using to get out of bankruptcy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think we found the method SCO is using to get out of bankruptcy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think we found the method SCO is using to get out of bankruptcy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31257336</id>
	<title>Re:Who is the victim?</title>
	<author>laddiebuck</author>
	<datestamp>1265109480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Mitchell and Webb had a good sketch about this a couple of years ago expressing much the same thoughts but snappily and funnily. (Sorry!)<br>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E" title="youtube.com">Mitchell and Webb - Identity Theft</a> [youtube.com] <br> <br>

That's the radio version; I've only seen the TV version (check out the DVDs, or just watch their sketches on YouTube, they're a surprisingly intelligent sketch show).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Mitchell and Webb had a good sketch about this a couple of years ago expressing much the same thoughts but snappily and funnily .
( Sorry ! ) Mitchell and Webb - Identity Theft [ youtube.com ] That 's the radio version ; I 've only seen the TV version ( check out the DVDs , or just watch their sketches on YouTube , they 're a surprisingly intelligent sketch show ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mitchell and Webb had a good sketch about this a couple of years ago expressing much the same thoughts but snappily and funnily.
(Sorry!)
Mitchell and Webb - Identity Theft [youtube.com]  

That's the radio version; I've only seen the TV version (check out the DVDs, or just watch their sketches on YouTube, they're a surprisingly intelligent sketch show).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253686</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253648</id>
	<title>Russian mob was doing this in the 1990's</title>
	<author>DVD9</author>
	<datestamp>1266933480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>And yeah maybe it is an inside job. Paying clerks $6.00 an hour to work from midnight to 8:00AM does not buy a lot of loyalty. Where do you think most of the pilfered credit card numbers really come from? Try paying people a living wage and this won't happen. Employees who have to live with their mother are not adverse to listening to some ones criminal scheme, which to them sounds like justice rendered.</htmltext>
<tokenext>And yeah maybe it is an inside job .
Paying clerks $ 6.00 an hour to work from midnight to 8 : 00AM does not buy a lot of loyalty .
Where do you think most of the pilfered credit card numbers really come from ?
Try paying people a living wage and this wo n't happen .
Employees who have to live with their mother are not adverse to listening to some ones criminal scheme , which to them sounds like justice rendered .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And yeah maybe it is an inside job.
Paying clerks $6.00 an hour to work from midnight to 8:00AM does not buy a lot of loyalty.
Where do you think most of the pilfered credit card numbers really come from?
Try paying people a living wage and this won't happen.
Employees who have to live with their mother are not adverse to listening to some ones criminal scheme, which to them sounds like justice rendered.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255618</id>
	<title>Re:Who is the victim?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266947700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't like the way the credit system is set up either. I bet if you do a lot of fraud (and/or any other thievery), it's quite easy to keep your debts paid off and maintain a nice and healty credit rating on your own accounts. Especially since it's not your money being spent. It's the people you fuck over that get their credit ruined and can't get work or have trouble getting checks cashed, etc. The people that play honest and may lose track are the ones that get dinged. Thus credit scores really are completely worthless as a system of trust or credibility, and shouldn't be used for that. (If anything, credit scores should only be applicable and restricted to obtaining other credit or loans and nothing else.)</p><p>So yeah, I do see where you're coming from.</p><p>There needs to be some serious fixin' in legislation, but I figure the majority of current political office holders don't are afraid of upsetting their campaign contributors. Too bad too many people play the stupid party game such that they don't get thrown out.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't like the way the credit system is set up either .
I bet if you do a lot of fraud ( and/or any other thievery ) , it 's quite easy to keep your debts paid off and maintain a nice and healty credit rating on your own accounts .
Especially since it 's not your money being spent .
It 's the people you fuck over that get their credit ruined and ca n't get work or have trouble getting checks cashed , etc .
The people that play honest and may lose track are the ones that get dinged .
Thus credit scores really are completely worthless as a system of trust or credibility , and should n't be used for that .
( If anything , credit scores should only be applicable and restricted to obtaining other credit or loans and nothing else .
) So yeah , I do see where you 're coming from.There needs to be some serious fixin ' in legislation , but I figure the majority of current political office holders do n't are afraid of upsetting their campaign contributors .
Too bad too many people play the stupid party game such that they do n't get thrown out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't like the way the credit system is set up either.
I bet if you do a lot of fraud (and/or any other thievery), it's quite easy to keep your debts paid off and maintain a nice and healty credit rating on your own accounts.
Especially since it's not your money being spent.
It's the people you fuck over that get their credit ruined and can't get work or have trouble getting checks cashed, etc.
The people that play honest and may lose track are the ones that get dinged.
Thus credit scores really are completely worthless as a system of trust or credibility, and shouldn't be used for that.
(If anything, credit scores should only be applicable and restricted to obtaining other credit or loans and nothing else.
)So yeah, I do see where you're coming from.There needs to be some serious fixin' in legislation, but I figure the majority of current political office holders don't are afraid of upsetting their campaign contributors.
Too bad too many people play the stupid party game such that they don't get thrown out.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253686</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255178</id>
	<title>Minimum wage increase - the panacea.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266943740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes. *All* conflict arises from economic disparity. Why, if only we could fight poverty would could stop fighting each other. I've never even *heard* of a rich man stealing (much less murdering).<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/sarcasm.<br> <br>

Dynamite = the end of war. Failed. The airplane = the end of war. Failed. Television = the end of war. Failed. Atomic bomb = the end of war. Failed. Let's extrapolate. If you were to do something so humanitarian as to end hunger, you would also end hungry armies. Who could then wage more efficient war. Humans bring about their own problems, not their circumstances.<br> <br>

Of course, the answer is Jesus, but many people don't want to hear that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes .
* All * conflict arises from economic disparity .
Why , if only we could fight poverty would could stop fighting each other .
I 've never even * heard * of a rich man stealing ( much less murdering ) .
/sarcasm . Dynamite = the end of war .
Failed. The airplane = the end of war .
Failed. Television = the end of war .
Failed. Atomic bomb = the end of war .
Failed. Let 's extrapolate .
If you were to do something so humanitarian as to end hunger , you would also end hungry armies .
Who could then wage more efficient war .
Humans bring about their own problems , not their circumstances .
Of course , the answer is Jesus , but many people do n't want to hear that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes.
*All* conflict arises from economic disparity.
Why, if only we could fight poverty would could stop fighting each other.
I've never even *heard* of a rich man stealing (much less murdering).
/sarcasm. 

Dynamite = the end of war.
Failed. The airplane = the end of war.
Failed. Television = the end of war.
Failed. Atomic bomb = the end of war.
Failed. Let's extrapolate.
If you were to do something so humanitarian as to end hunger, you would also end hungry armies.
Who could then wage more efficient war.
Humans bring about their own problems, not their circumstances.
Of course, the answer is Jesus, but many people don't want to hear that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253648</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31267272</id>
	<title>insiders?</title>
	<author>GregNorc</author>
	<datestamp>1265119680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Insiders being paid off to look the other way?</p><p>Maybe.</p><p>Or maybe it's a gas station that isn't manned 24/7?</p><p>I've seen gas stations in the suburbs where they only have a clerk from say, 8am-8pm. During late hours when they don't get much business, you can use a credit card at the pump, but there's no clerk.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Insiders being paid off to look the other way ? Maybe.Or maybe it 's a gas station that is n't manned 24/7 ? I 've seen gas stations in the suburbs where they only have a clerk from say , 8am-8pm .
During late hours when they do n't get much business , you can use a credit card at the pump , but there 's no clerk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Insiders being paid off to look the other way?Maybe.Or maybe it's a gas station that isn't manned 24/7?I've seen gas stations in the suburbs where they only have a clerk from say, 8am-8pm.
During late hours when they don't get much business, you can use a credit card at the pump, but there's no clerk.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253428</id>
	<title>Kdawson FUD</title>
	<author>sexconker</author>
	<datestamp>1266932340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How is this shit news for nerds?<br>Any fucking fucking nerd has known about this tactic for decades.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How is this shit news for nerds ? Any fucking fucking nerd has known about this tactic for decades .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How is this shit news for nerds?Any fucking fucking nerd has known about this tactic for decades.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31254390</id>
	<title>Re:Nothing New</title>
	<author>Zencyde</author>
	<datestamp>1266938220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's unfortunate that chip cards are still pretty useless from a security standpoint: <a href="http://www.silicon.com/technology/security/2007/02/06/chip-and-pin-hack-attack-demoed-39165665/" title="silicon.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.silicon.com/technology/security/2007/02/06/chip-and-pin-hack-attack-demoed-39165665/</a> [silicon.com] <br> <br>I think Japan might have the right idea with using phones for this purpose instead of magnetic cards. At least with a phone you could always be required to transmit a couple forms of identity (let's say a thumbprint and a password) and the easiest path of compromise is to man in the middle the radio signals. Throw in some encryption and that should put it beyond the reach of MOST criminals. Sure, not everyone owns a phone. But how much longer is that going to be?</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's unfortunate that chip cards are still pretty useless from a security standpoint : http : //www.silicon.com/technology/security/2007/02/06/chip-and-pin-hack-attack-demoed-39165665/ [ silicon.com ] I think Japan might have the right idea with using phones for this purpose instead of magnetic cards .
At least with a phone you could always be required to transmit a couple forms of identity ( let 's say a thumbprint and a password ) and the easiest path of compromise is to man in the middle the radio signals .
Throw in some encryption and that should put it beyond the reach of MOST criminals .
Sure , not everyone owns a phone .
But how much longer is that going to be ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's unfortunate that chip cards are still pretty useless from a security standpoint: http://www.silicon.com/technology/security/2007/02/06/chip-and-pin-hack-attack-demoed-39165665/ [silicon.com]  I think Japan might have the right idea with using phones for this purpose instead of magnetic cards.
At least with a phone you could always be required to transmit a couple forms of identity (let's say a thumbprint and a password) and the easiest path of compromise is to man in the middle the radio signals.
Throw in some encryption and that should put it beyond the reach of MOST criminals.
Sure, not everyone owns a phone.
But how much longer is that going to be?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253656</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31256048</id>
	<title>Of course...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266951840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No one want to pay to update these fine examples of 1950's technology.  That would be too difficult.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No one want to pay to update these fine examples of 1950 's technology .
That would be too difficult .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No one want to pay to update these fine examples of 1950's technology.
That would be too difficult.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253914</id>
	<title>Use legal tender, huh?</title>
	<author>macraig</author>
	<datestamp>1266934980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is but one reason why I use only cash to buy gas.  The other is that greedy operators like ARCO will skim $0.45 off the top of every debit card transaction.  I happened to be an early victim of debit card reproduction over a decade ago, before these current devices even existed; back then it apparently required collusion with a station employee to redirect outside security cameras and collect register data.  The result was the same: my Versatel card was duplicated without ever leaving my possession, and then a withdrawal spree took place over three days at race track and casino third-party ATMs all over four counties.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is but one reason why I use only cash to buy gas .
The other is that greedy operators like ARCO will skim $ 0.45 off the top of every debit card transaction .
I happened to be an early victim of debit card reproduction over a decade ago , before these current devices even existed ; back then it apparently required collusion with a station employee to redirect outside security cameras and collect register data .
The result was the same : my Versatel card was duplicated without ever leaving my possession , and then a withdrawal spree took place over three days at race track and casino third-party ATMs all over four counties .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is but one reason why I use only cash to buy gas.
The other is that greedy operators like ARCO will skim $0.45 off the top of every debit card transaction.
I happened to be an early victim of debit card reproduction over a decade ago, before these current devices even existed; back then it apparently required collusion with a station employee to redirect outside security cameras and collect register data.
The result was the same: my Versatel card was duplicated without ever leaving my possession, and then a withdrawal spree took place over three days at race track and casino third-party ATMs all over four counties.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31256420</id>
	<title>Nothing new</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265141940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The east europeans have been doing this in western Europe for many years by now.<br>That is why 95\%+ of all cards in Denmark has a chip that must be used, and Sweden will have completed the card replacement cycle this year.</p><p>US is technological way behind the rest of the civilized world.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The east europeans have been doing this in western Europe for many years by now.That is why 95 \ % + of all cards in Denmark has a chip that must be used , and Sweden will have completed the card replacement cycle this year.US is technological way behind the rest of the civilized world .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The east europeans have been doing this in western Europe for many years by now.That is why 95\%+ of all cards in Denmark has a chip that must be used, and Sweden will have completed the card replacement cycle this year.US is technological way behind the rest of the civilized world.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31258210</id>
	<title>Just requires a little more sophistication.</title>
	<author>Ihlosi</author>
	<datestamp>1265119680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>Then the reader sends a formatted packet containing the PIN (if entered), the options (credit vs debit etc) and the amount of the purchase. </i> <p>

If the crooks have compromised the reader, they can have your card encrypt a couple of packets they plan to use before going through with the actual legitimate transaction.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Then the reader sends a formatted packet containing the PIN ( if entered ) , the options ( credit vs debit etc ) and the amount of the purchase .
If the crooks have compromised the reader , they can have your card encrypt a couple of packets they plan to use before going through with the actual legitimate transaction .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then the reader sends a formatted packet containing the PIN (if entered), the options (credit vs debit etc) and the amount of the purchase.
If the crooks have compromised the reader, they can have your card encrypt a couple of packets they plan to use before going through with the actual legitimate transaction.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255220</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255254</id>
	<title>Re:Encrypt the data for starters</title>
	<author>Stoutlimb</author>
	<datestamp>1266944280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a gas pump mechanic, I can say that it's a battle just to get the owners to crack the pumps open once a month to check for fuel leaks and other safety issues.</p><p>As for keys, a dozen keys will open every pump on the continent.  I've never come across a pump that needed a unique key.  Heck most gas stations won't even put pad locks on their underground fuel tanks.  This sometimes leads to confused seniors in RV's dumping their septic tanks down there, thinking it was a sewer line made for motor homes...  I hate to say it but most people involved in the gas station industry are so dumb they need helmets.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a gas pump mechanic , I can say that it 's a battle just to get the owners to crack the pumps open once a month to check for fuel leaks and other safety issues.As for keys , a dozen keys will open every pump on the continent .
I 've never come across a pump that needed a unique key .
Heck most gas stations wo n't even put pad locks on their underground fuel tanks .
This sometimes leads to confused seniors in RV 's dumping their septic tanks down there , thinking it was a sewer line made for motor homes... I hate to say it but most people involved in the gas station industry are so dumb they need helmets .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a gas pump mechanic, I can say that it's a battle just to get the owners to crack the pumps open once a month to check for fuel leaks and other safety issues.As for keys, a dozen keys will open every pump on the continent.
I've never come across a pump that needed a unique key.
Heck most gas stations won't even put pad locks on their underground fuel tanks.
This sometimes leads to confused seniors in RV's dumping their septic tanks down there, thinking it was a sewer line made for motor homes...  I hate to say it but most people involved in the gas station industry are so dumb they need helmets.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253670</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253656</id>
	<title>Nothing New</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266933540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This got my credit card over a year ago in Saskatchewan, Canada. However, my card was skimmed at a do-it-yourself ticket-terminal at the local movie theatre.</p><p>It turned out it was a very large network of people who came together and organized the attack and paid people all over the country to do this and sent the info back to 'headquarters' in Ontario Canada.</p><p>They racked up over $600 in charges and it all appeared to have been used at Gas stations in Toronto / Missisaga in Ontario.</p><p>They put these things on any 'do-it-yourself' terminal they could find. This included pay-at-the-pump gas stations, ATM's, and any kiosk that could read a debit/credit card.</p><p>Luckily Mastercard covers things like this so it was much easier to report and reverse than a few friends of mine who had their debit cards skimmed. They had a much harder process to deal with.</p><p>The move to "Chip" cards ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip\_card[/url]) are rapidly increasing these days. I know my local credit union is fully switched over, although maybe half of the retailers in town actually support them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This got my credit card over a year ago in Saskatchewan , Canada .
However , my card was skimmed at a do-it-yourself ticket-terminal at the local movie theatre.It turned out it was a very large network of people who came together and organized the attack and paid people all over the country to do this and sent the info back to 'headquarters ' in Ontario Canada.They racked up over $ 600 in charges and it all appeared to have been used at Gas stations in Toronto / Missisaga in Ontario.They put these things on any 'do-it-yourself ' terminal they could find .
This included pay-at-the-pump gas stations , ATM 's , and any kiosk that could read a debit/credit card.Luckily Mastercard covers things like this so it was much easier to report and reverse than a few friends of mine who had their debit cards skimmed .
They had a much harder process to deal with.The move to " Chip " cards ( [ url ] http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip \ _card [ /url ] ) are rapidly increasing these days .
I know my local credit union is fully switched over , although maybe half of the retailers in town actually support them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This got my credit card over a year ago in Saskatchewan, Canada.
However, my card was skimmed at a do-it-yourself ticket-terminal at the local movie theatre.It turned out it was a very large network of people who came together and organized the attack and paid people all over the country to do this and sent the info back to 'headquarters' in Ontario Canada.They racked up over $600 in charges and it all appeared to have been used at Gas stations in Toronto / Missisaga in Ontario.They put these things on any 'do-it-yourself' terminal they could find.
This included pay-at-the-pump gas stations, ATM's, and any kiosk that could read a debit/credit card.Luckily Mastercard covers things like this so it was much easier to report and reverse than a few friends of mine who had their debit cards skimmed.
They had a much harder process to deal with.The move to "Chip" cards ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip\_card[/url]) are rapidly increasing these days.
I know my local credit union is fully switched over, although maybe half of the retailers in town actually support them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31254786</id>
	<title>The pumps are the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266940860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been following this since first I heard about it a week or two ago. My first thought was that it HAD to be an inside job for someone to be able to access the pumps since they are locked with keys. Then I ran across this article that says there are basically one or two key configurations for all pumps across the country:</p><p>http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&amp;sid=9782411</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been following this since first I heard about it a week or two ago .
My first thought was that it HAD to be an inside job for someone to be able to access the pumps since they are locked with keys .
Then I ran across this article that says there are basically one or two key configurations for all pumps across the country : http : //www.ksl.com/index.php ? nid = 148&amp;sid = 9782411</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been following this since first I heard about it a week or two ago.
My first thought was that it HAD to be an inside job for someone to be able to access the pumps since they are locked with keys.
Then I ran across this article that says there are basically one or two key configurations for all pumps across the country:http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&amp;sid=9782411</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253472</id>
	<title>Re:Great</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266932580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't use the reader on the pump.  If it's a prepay pump, inform the attendant (they won't care) and then corporate.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't use the reader on the pump .
If it 's a prepay pump , inform the attendant ( they wo n't care ) and then corporate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't use the reader on the pump.
If it's a prepay pump, inform the attendant (they won't care) and then corporate.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255220</id>
	<title>How to solve this for good</title>
	<author>jonwil</author>
	<datestamp>1266944100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Equip all cards with a simple chip. This chip contains an encryption algorithim (something strong enough to not be easily cracked by running brute force on data packets). It would also contain a secret key unique to your account. And it should not give the key itself out.</p><p>Then the reader sends a formatted packet containing the PIN (if entered), the options (credit vs debit etc) and the amount of the purchase. The card encrypts this data and hands the reader a data packet saying "this is a chip-and-pin transaction" and containing the encrypted data. The reader sends this through the bank networks to the issuing bank.</p><p>The issuing bank has another copy of the secret key which it uses to decrypt the data packet and validate that the transaction is possible (i.e. enough money there etc) and returns a "yes, proceed" result to the card reader. The bank would ONLY record the transaction as a chip-and-pin if it was sent through this process (thus preventing dodgy or compromised swipe-only terminals reading the mag stripe and running up the transaction like a mag stripe transaction but telling the bank its chip-and-pin)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Equip all cards with a simple chip .
This chip contains an encryption algorithim ( something strong enough to not be easily cracked by running brute force on data packets ) .
It would also contain a secret key unique to your account .
And it should not give the key itself out.Then the reader sends a formatted packet containing the PIN ( if entered ) , the options ( credit vs debit etc ) and the amount of the purchase .
The card encrypts this data and hands the reader a data packet saying " this is a chip-and-pin transaction " and containing the encrypted data .
The reader sends this through the bank networks to the issuing bank.The issuing bank has another copy of the secret key which it uses to decrypt the data packet and validate that the transaction is possible ( i.e .
enough money there etc ) and returns a " yes , proceed " result to the card reader .
The bank would ONLY record the transaction as a chip-and-pin if it was sent through this process ( thus preventing dodgy or compromised swipe-only terminals reading the mag stripe and running up the transaction like a mag stripe transaction but telling the bank its chip-and-pin )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Equip all cards with a simple chip.
This chip contains an encryption algorithim (something strong enough to not be easily cracked by running brute force on data packets).
It would also contain a secret key unique to your account.
And it should not give the key itself out.Then the reader sends a formatted packet containing the PIN (if entered), the options (credit vs debit etc) and the amount of the purchase.
The card encrypts this data and hands the reader a data packet saying "this is a chip-and-pin transaction" and containing the encrypted data.
The reader sends this through the bank networks to the issuing bank.The issuing bank has another copy of the secret key which it uses to decrypt the data packet and validate that the transaction is possible (i.e.
enough money there etc) and returns a "yes, proceed" result to the card reader.
The bank would ONLY record the transaction as a chip-and-pin if it was sent through this process (thus preventing dodgy or compromised swipe-only terminals reading the mag stripe and running up the transaction like a mag stripe transaction but telling the bank its chip-and-pin)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253722</id>
	<title>Alternate title</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266933900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>After waiting patiently for the US Government to implement a carbon tax, the ever-altruistic Utah mafia has decided to take matters into their own hands.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>After waiting patiently for the US Government to implement a carbon tax , the ever-altruistic Utah mafia has decided to take matters into their own hands .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After waiting patiently for the US Government to implement a carbon tax, the ever-altruistic Utah mafia has decided to take matters into their own hands.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31260496</id>
	<title>Re:Russian mob was doing this in the 1990's</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265131560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For the most part, gas stations stay open @ night to avoid huge insurance bills.  The amount actually collected during the graveyard shift is pretty minimal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For the most part , gas stations stay open @ night to avoid huge insurance bills .
The amount actually collected during the graveyard shift is pretty minimal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For the most part, gas stations stay open @ night to avoid huge insurance bills.
The amount actually collected during the graveyard shift is pretty minimal.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253648</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255404</id>
	<title>Re:Kdawson FUD</title>
	<author>stonewallred</author>
	<datestamp>1266945480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>flamebait it is. But it would be news if they told how they did it, disclosed the methods of obtaining the skimmers, drew us some diagrams and maybe upload some spec sheets on the various pumps and the dimensional drawings. Then it would be tech news.</htmltext>
<tokenext>flamebait it is .
But it would be news if they told how they did it , disclosed the methods of obtaining the skimmers , drew us some diagrams and maybe upload some spec sheets on the various pumps and the dimensional drawings .
Then it would be tech news .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>flamebait it is.
But it would be news if they told how they did it, disclosed the methods of obtaining the skimmers, drew us some diagrams and maybe upload some spec sheets on the various pumps and the dimensional drawings.
Then it would be tech news.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253428</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253874</id>
	<title>Never use Debit</title>
	<author>TheNarrator</author>
	<datestamp>1266934740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Obviously you have to use debit at an ATM, but at gas stations i use credit, even with my debit card, because once they have your pin they can get cash out of your account and not just do a credit card charge.  The crooks would much rather have the greenbacks than having to buy crap with your stolen card and fence it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Obviously you have to use debit at an ATM , but at gas stations i use credit , even with my debit card , because once they have your pin they can get cash out of your account and not just do a credit card charge .
The crooks would much rather have the greenbacks than having to buy crap with your stolen card and fence it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Obviously you have to use debit at an ATM, but at gas stations i use credit, even with my debit card, because once they have your pin they can get cash out of your account and not just do a credit card charge.
The crooks would much rather have the greenbacks than having to buy crap with your stolen card and fence it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253436</id>
	<title>Great</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266932400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I remember running into something like this a long time ago when I was in New York City. There was this small piece of metal in the card slot. Needless to say I didn't insert my debit card in to find out what it was. </p><p> How do I protect myself from a skimmer inside a gas pump? </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I remember running into something like this a long time ago when I was in New York City .
There was this small piece of metal in the card slot .
Needless to say I did n't insert my debit card in to find out what it was .
How do I protect myself from a skimmer inside a gas pump ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I remember running into something like this a long time ago when I was in New York City.
There was this small piece of metal in the card slot.
Needless to say I didn't insert my debit card in to find out what it was.
How do I protect myself from a skimmer inside a gas pump? </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31271664</id>
	<title>czarspeed</title>
	<author>czarspeed</author>
	<datestamp>1267110900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Go find a dumpster pull out an old ironing board and 4 soup cans and buld your self a rocket powered skate board. Problem solved.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Go find a dumpster pull out an old ironing board and 4 soup cans and buld your self a rocket powered skate board .
Problem solved .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Go find a dumpster pull out an old ironing board and 4 soup cans and buld your self a rocket powered skate board.
Problem solved.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31257560</id>
	<title>Been going on in the UK for ages</title>
	<author>alecwood</author>
	<datestamp>1265112300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here in the UK, especially since the advent of 'Chip &amp; Pin' security, card skimmers and other intercept methods have become increasingly common, and fuel pumps are among the most common targets of all. The reason why is ease of access. You're stood at the pump for quite a long time (in the UK you have to keep the handle squeezed to pump fuel, no latch) with noone paying any real attention to you. Since you're stood for so long you have ample opportunity to install your device, and since there are no attendants, just a couple of cashiers, the chances of detection are minimal. Since automatic number plate recognition technology was added to aid in apprehending fuel thieves, the cashiers have no reason to look at the CCTV screens either, so they don't.</p><p>I was had by just such a device a couple of years ago, but here the banks are so confident in chip and pin as a security method they weren't exactly sympathetic - and bank fraud is now a matter for the banks, not the police. It took a long struggle to get my money back, and in the end the best I could manage was about 50\% of it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here in the UK , especially since the advent of 'Chip &amp; Pin ' security , card skimmers and other intercept methods have become increasingly common , and fuel pumps are among the most common targets of all .
The reason why is ease of access .
You 're stood at the pump for quite a long time ( in the UK you have to keep the handle squeezed to pump fuel , no latch ) with noone paying any real attention to you .
Since you 're stood for so long you have ample opportunity to install your device , and since there are no attendants , just a couple of cashiers , the chances of detection are minimal .
Since automatic number plate recognition technology was added to aid in apprehending fuel thieves , the cashiers have no reason to look at the CCTV screens either , so they do n't.I was had by just such a device a couple of years ago , but here the banks are so confident in chip and pin as a security method they were n't exactly sympathetic - and bank fraud is now a matter for the banks , not the police .
It took a long struggle to get my money back , and in the end the best I could manage was about 50 \ % of it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here in the UK, especially since the advent of 'Chip &amp; Pin' security, card skimmers and other intercept methods have become increasingly common, and fuel pumps are among the most common targets of all.
The reason why is ease of access.
You're stood at the pump for quite a long time (in the UK you have to keep the handle squeezed to pump fuel, no latch) with noone paying any real attention to you.
Since you're stood for so long you have ample opportunity to install your device, and since there are no attendants, just a couple of cashiers, the chances of detection are minimal.
Since automatic number plate recognition technology was added to aid in apprehending fuel thieves, the cashiers have no reason to look at the CCTV screens either, so they don't.I was had by just such a device a couple of years ago, but here the banks are so confident in chip and pin as a security method they weren't exactly sympathetic - and bank fraud is now a matter for the banks, not the police.
It took a long struggle to get my money back, and in the end the best I could manage was about 50\% of it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31256588</id>
	<title>Re:How to solve this for good</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265143560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nice try, and your suggestion does seem to be significantly better than what we have now.</p><p>You have the potential for replay attacks here because a valid packet for a specific amount would always look the same.  We can fix that by throwing some random data in there too which the bank sends out and then checks later.</p><p>You also haven't talked about the fact that the reader could throw loads of these packets at the chip, for a variety of amounts and simply store the resulting packets for later use or analysis.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nice try , and your suggestion does seem to be significantly better than what we have now.You have the potential for replay attacks here because a valid packet for a specific amount would always look the same .
We can fix that by throwing some random data in there too which the bank sends out and then checks later.You also have n't talked about the fact that the reader could throw loads of these packets at the chip , for a variety of amounts and simply store the resulting packets for later use or analysis .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nice try, and your suggestion does seem to be significantly better than what we have now.You have the potential for replay attacks here because a valid packet for a specific amount would always look the same.
We can fix that by throwing some random data in there too which the bank sends out and then checks later.You also haven't talked about the fact that the reader could throw loads of these packets at the chip, for a variety of amounts and simply store the resulting packets for later use or analysis.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255220</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253686</id>
	<title>Who is the victim?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266933720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Let's define this scenario clearly.  You put your money in a bank.  The bank then gives you access to the bank's services.  It's not access to "your" money so much as it is access to a money exchange service.  (Think of an ATM and similar services as a vending machine that serves up cash and other things in exchange for the money in your bank account.)</p><p>Now there are the criminal parties.  These parties are the ones who come in and exploit weaknesses in the system to get cash and other things.  In the course of exploiting these weaknesses, they use the credentials of other people to extract the cash and other things from the actual victims.</p><p>Who are the actual victims?  They are the banks themselves and they are the sellers of other things.</p><p>When the people whose credentials were used in the commission of a crime against the banks and merchants are charged with responsibility for the criminal acts, it is the banks and merchants who are victimizing the people... their customers!  The criminal performed their crimes against the banks and merchants.  It is the banks and merchants who are passing the burden along to the innocent individuals who quite literally have no way to protect or control the situation.  It is the banks and merchants who have the means to control and protect.</p><p>Every time I hear "identity theft" and other referrals of uninvolved parties as victims of a crime, the lie bothers me.  These banks and merchants have created a system that is weak and exploitable that uses its customers as a buffer and even a shield against those weaknesses.  You cannot protect your "secret information" so long as it must be shared in order to use it.  And once that information is out there and used, the banks and merchants take money from your account instead of theirs.  The original victims are, in turn, victimizing the innocent by declaring that the innocents are victims of the original crime.</p><p>I am sure there are plenty of people who disagree with my sentiments on the matter.  But if you do, point out the flaw in the logic I presented.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Let 's define this scenario clearly .
You put your money in a bank .
The bank then gives you access to the bank 's services .
It 's not access to " your " money so much as it is access to a money exchange service .
( Think of an ATM and similar services as a vending machine that serves up cash and other things in exchange for the money in your bank account .
) Now there are the criminal parties .
These parties are the ones who come in and exploit weaknesses in the system to get cash and other things .
In the course of exploiting these weaknesses , they use the credentials of other people to extract the cash and other things from the actual victims.Who are the actual victims ?
They are the banks themselves and they are the sellers of other things.When the people whose credentials were used in the commission of a crime against the banks and merchants are charged with responsibility for the criminal acts , it is the banks and merchants who are victimizing the people... their customers !
The criminal performed their crimes against the banks and merchants .
It is the banks and merchants who are passing the burden along to the innocent individuals who quite literally have no way to protect or control the situation .
It is the banks and merchants who have the means to control and protect.Every time I hear " identity theft " and other referrals of uninvolved parties as victims of a crime , the lie bothers me .
These banks and merchants have created a system that is weak and exploitable that uses its customers as a buffer and even a shield against those weaknesses .
You can not protect your " secret information " so long as it must be shared in order to use it .
And once that information is out there and used , the banks and merchants take money from your account instead of theirs .
The original victims are , in turn , victimizing the innocent by declaring that the innocents are victims of the original crime.I am sure there are plenty of people who disagree with my sentiments on the matter .
But if you do , point out the flaw in the logic I presented .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let's define this scenario clearly.
You put your money in a bank.
The bank then gives you access to the bank's services.
It's not access to "your" money so much as it is access to a money exchange service.
(Think of an ATM and similar services as a vending machine that serves up cash and other things in exchange for the money in your bank account.
)Now there are the criminal parties.
These parties are the ones who come in and exploit weaknesses in the system to get cash and other things.
In the course of exploiting these weaknesses, they use the credentials of other people to extract the cash and other things from the actual victims.Who are the actual victims?
They are the banks themselves and they are the sellers of other things.When the people whose credentials were used in the commission of a crime against the banks and merchants are charged with responsibility for the criminal acts, it is the banks and merchants who are victimizing the people... their customers!
The criminal performed their crimes against the banks and merchants.
It is the banks and merchants who are passing the burden along to the innocent individuals who quite literally have no way to protect or control the situation.
It is the banks and merchants who have the means to control and protect.Every time I hear "identity theft" and other referrals of uninvolved parties as victims of a crime, the lie bothers me.
These banks and merchants have created a system that is weak and exploitable that uses its customers as a buffer and even a shield against those weaknesses.
You cannot protect your "secret information" so long as it must be shared in order to use it.
And once that information is out there and used, the banks and merchants take money from your account instead of theirs.
The original victims are, in turn, victimizing the innocent by declaring that the innocents are victims of the original crime.I am sure there are plenty of people who disagree with my sentiments on the matter.
But if you do, point out the flaw in the logic I presented.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255066</id>
	<title>Pump security?</title>
	<author>PPH</author>
	<datestamp>1266942840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We had a crew of people running around here (the Seattle area) not long ago. They were getting inside the pump and circumventing the controls to enable the pump. And then they'd steal a few hundred gallons at a time with a specially equipped pickup truck.
</p><p>You'd think they would have some sort of tamper alarm and pump shutdown to keep unauthorizedd people from screwing around inside the pumps.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We had a crew of people running around here ( the Seattle area ) not long ago .
They were getting inside the pump and circumventing the controls to enable the pump .
And then they 'd steal a few hundred gallons at a time with a specially equipped pickup truck .
You 'd think they would have some sort of tamper alarm and pump shutdown to keep unauthorizedd people from screwing around inside the pumps .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We had a crew of people running around here (the Seattle area) not long ago.
They were getting inside the pump and circumventing the controls to enable the pump.
And then they'd steal a few hundred gallons at a time with a specially equipped pickup truck.
You'd think they would have some sort of tamper alarm and pump shutdown to keep unauthorizedd people from screwing around inside the pumps.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253976</id>
	<title>Leave it to california</title>
	<author>jeffmeden</author>
	<datestamp>1266935280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"The scam was first discovered when a California bank's fraud department discovered that multiple bank card victims reporting problems had all used the same gas pump at a 7-Eleven store in Utah."</p><p>Of course those nanny liberals in CA found out about it, they are watching EVERYTHING YOU DO.  In Utah, they were simply waiting for the free market (or Jesus) to sort it out.</p><p>Anonymous?  I probably should have.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" The scam was first discovered when a California bank 's fraud department discovered that multiple bank card victims reporting problems had all used the same gas pump at a 7-Eleven store in Utah .
" Of course those nanny liberals in CA found out about it , they are watching EVERYTHING YOU DO .
In Utah , they were simply waiting for the free market ( or Jesus ) to sort it out.Anonymous ?
I probably should have .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"The scam was first discovered when a California bank's fraud department discovered that multiple bank card victims reporting problems had all used the same gas pump at a 7-Eleven store in Utah.
"Of course those nanny liberals in CA found out about it, they are watching EVERYTHING YOU DO.
In Utah, they were simply waiting for the free market (or Jesus) to sort it out.Anonymous?
I probably should have.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31258938</id>
	<title>Re:Russian mob was doing this in the 1990's</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265124300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>According to your logic, the folks in wall-street are all pure, honest, angels because they make a decent living. Last time I checked, greed knows no bounds.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>According to your logic , the folks in wall-street are all pure , honest , angels because they make a decent living .
Last time I checked , greed knows no bounds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>According to your logic, the folks in wall-street are all pure, honest, angels because they make a decent living.
Last time I checked, greed knows no bounds.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253648</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31261202</id>
	<title>Re:Who is the victim?</title>
	<author>osgeek</author>
	<datestamp>1265134440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is entirely true.  I put another post in this thread describing how to use digital signatures with your cell phone to avoid using easily obtainable information for payments.  Rich0 describes that same method below.  This is an easily solvable problem that banks don't give a shit to solve.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is entirely true .
I put another post in this thread describing how to use digital signatures with your cell phone to avoid using easily obtainable information for payments .
Rich0 describes that same method below .
This is an easily solvable problem that banks do n't give a shit to solve .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is entirely true.
I put another post in this thread describing how to use digital signatures with your cell phone to avoid using easily obtainable information for payments.
Rich0 describes that same method below.
This is an easily solvable problem that banks don't give a shit to solve.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253686</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31254922</id>
	<title>Re:Russian mob was doing this in the 1990's</title>
	<author>kramerd</author>
	<datestamp>1266941820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> Paying clerks $6.00 an hour to work from midnight to 8:00AM does not buy a lot of loyalty.</p> </div><p>Especially since federal minimum wage is 7.25 an hour...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Paying clerks $ 6.00 an hour to work from midnight to 8 : 00AM does not buy a lot of loyalty .
Especially since federal minimum wage is 7.25 an hour.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Paying clerks $6.00 an hour to work from midnight to 8:00AM does not buy a lot of loyalty.
Especially since federal minimum wage is 7.25 an hour...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253648</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31254890</id>
	<title>wow.....</title>
	<author>trum4n</author>
	<datestamp>1266941460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Never thought i'd get ripped off by a gas pump.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Never thought i 'd get ripped off by a gas pump .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Never thought i'd get ripped off by a gas pump.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255126</id>
	<title>Re:Russian mob was doing this in the 1990's</title>
	<author>ShakaUVM</author>
	<datestamp>1266943260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;&gt;Where do you think most of the pilfered credit card numbers really come from?</p><p>I had a friend (and no, it really was a friend, not me) that was involved in a ring of guys that did that sort of stuff out of Northridge. They'd take lists of CC numbers, pair them with PINs, reprogram some new cards using mag card writers, and then go to some place around 11:30, pull out all the money they could, wait for midnight to flip around, pull out all the money they could, split the money amongst them all, and bailed.</p><p>They'd use card readers and compromised clerks to get the CC numbers, and shoulder surfing (I imagine) to get the PINs. They'd move from gas station to gas station randomly in the LA area.</p><p>Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; &gt; Where do you think most of the pilfered credit card numbers really come from ? I had a friend ( and no , it really was a friend , not me ) that was involved in a ring of guys that did that sort of stuff out of Northridge .
They 'd take lists of CC numbers , pair them with PINs , reprogram some new cards using mag card writers , and then go to some place around 11 : 30 , pull out all the money they could , wait for midnight to flip around , pull out all the money they could , split the money amongst them all , and bailed.They 'd use card readers and compromised clerks to get the CC numbers , and shoulder surfing ( I imagine ) to get the PINs .
They 'd move from gas station to gas station randomly in the LA area.Now you know , and knowing is half the battle .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;&gt;Where do you think most of the pilfered credit card numbers really come from?I had a friend (and no, it really was a friend, not me) that was involved in a ring of guys that did that sort of stuff out of Northridge.
They'd take lists of CC numbers, pair them with PINs, reprogram some new cards using mag card writers, and then go to some place around 11:30, pull out all the money they could, wait for midnight to flip around, pull out all the money they could, split the money amongst them all, and bailed.They'd use card readers and compromised clerks to get the CC numbers, and shoulder surfing (I imagine) to get the PINs.
They'd move from gas station to gas station randomly in the LA area.Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253648</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255234</id>
	<title>That's why I usually pump and scoot</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266944160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>no point getting victimized<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p><p>This got inside job written all over it.<br>As others have indicated, most gas stations have more cameras than Fort Knox (after all, it's black gold).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>no point getting victimized ; ) This got inside job written all over it.As others have indicated , most gas stations have more cameras than Fort Knox ( after all , it 's black gold ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>no point getting victimized ;)This got inside job written all over it.As others have indicated, most gas stations have more cameras than Fort Knox (after all, it's black gold).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31254012</id>
	<title>Re:Russian mob was doing this in the 1990's</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266935520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Except standing around with your thumb up your ass for 7 hours, and spending an hour mopping, and stocking cigarettes isn't worth more than $6 an hour.  I used to work the 11 to 7 shift at 7-11.  Oh, and all the free slurpees you can drink ain't bad either.</p><p>Paying people more than the job is worth won't buy loyalty, unless you're paying them a lot more.  And believe it or not, those are fairly low-margin operations.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Except standing around with your thumb up your ass for 7 hours , and spending an hour mopping , and stocking cigarettes is n't worth more than $ 6 an hour .
I used to work the 11 to 7 shift at 7-11 .
Oh , and all the free slurpees you can drink ai n't bad either.Paying people more than the job is worth wo n't buy loyalty , unless you 're paying them a lot more .
And believe it or not , those are fairly low-margin operations .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Except standing around with your thumb up your ass for 7 hours, and spending an hour mopping, and stocking cigarettes isn't worth more than $6 an hour.
I used to work the 11 to 7 shift at 7-11.
Oh, and all the free slurpees you can drink ain't bad either.Paying people more than the job is worth won't buy loyalty, unless you're paying them a lot more.
And believe it or not, those are fairly low-margin operations.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253648</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31265326</id>
	<title>Re:How to solve this for good</title>
	<author>Xibby</author>
	<datestamp>1265108400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Problem with a new solution is dealing with all the legacy hardware out there for processing transactions. Retailers have to buy new readers that would support both old and new cards, or buy new readers and keep the old ones in service. Retailers profits are hurt.</p><p>Card Issuers could force the change over by only processing transactions with the new cards, but if retailers push back and not install new readers the Card Issuers profits take a hit.</p><p>Consumers would have to update as well. Some people just won't do it. Example: Old ladies who have an old card without a mag stripe and no expiration date in their deceased 25 years ago husbands name. Card issuers and retailers can either loose out on the transaction or make the sale.</p><p>A bit of a stalemate all around really until the cost of dealing with the fraud exceeds the cost of updating the hardware.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Problem with a new solution is dealing with all the legacy hardware out there for processing transactions .
Retailers have to buy new readers that would support both old and new cards , or buy new readers and keep the old ones in service .
Retailers profits are hurt.Card Issuers could force the change over by only processing transactions with the new cards , but if retailers push back and not install new readers the Card Issuers profits take a hit.Consumers would have to update as well .
Some people just wo n't do it .
Example : Old ladies who have an old card without a mag stripe and no expiration date in their deceased 25 years ago husbands name .
Card issuers and retailers can either loose out on the transaction or make the sale.A bit of a stalemate all around really until the cost of dealing with the fraud exceeds the cost of updating the hardware .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Problem with a new solution is dealing with all the legacy hardware out there for processing transactions.
Retailers have to buy new readers that would support both old and new cards, or buy new readers and keep the old ones in service.
Retailers profits are hurt.Card Issuers could force the change over by only processing transactions with the new cards, but if retailers push back and not install new readers the Card Issuers profits take a hit.Consumers would have to update as well.
Some people just won't do it.
Example: Old ladies who have an old card without a mag stripe and no expiration date in their deceased 25 years ago husbands name.
Card issuers and retailers can either loose out on the transaction or make the sale.A bit of a stalemate all around really until the cost of dealing with the fraud exceeds the cost of updating the hardware.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255220</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253476</id>
	<title>Re:Great</title>
	<author>zippthorne</author>
	<datestamp>1266932640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Pay at the counter.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Pay at the counter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pay at the counter.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31254666</id>
	<title>Re:Russian mob was doing this in the 1990's</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266940020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Paying clerks $6.00 an hour</p></div><p>I'm pretty sure minimum wage is $7.25/hr.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Paying clerks $ 6.00 an hourI 'm pretty sure minimum wage is $ 7.25/hr .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Paying clerks $6.00 an hourI'm pretty sure minimum wage is $7.25/hr.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253648</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31257142</id>
	<title>Re:Who is the victim?</title>
	<author>noidentity</author>
	<datestamp>1265107260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Every time I hear "identity theft" and other referrals of uninvolved parties as victims of a crime, the lie bothers me.</p></div></blockquote><p>Same here. The <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E" title="youtube.com">Mitchell &amp; Webb Identity Theft</a> [youtube.com] parody perfectly illustrates how it's the <i>bank</i> who's had money stolen and been tricked, but is trying to reframe it as if it has something to do with you.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Every time I hear " identity theft " and other referrals of uninvolved parties as victims of a crime , the lie bothers me.Same here .
The Mitchell &amp; Webb Identity Theft [ youtube.com ] parody perfectly illustrates how it 's the bank who 's had money stolen and been tricked , but is trying to reframe it as if it has something to do with you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Every time I hear "identity theft" and other referrals of uninvolved parties as victims of a crime, the lie bothers me.Same here.
The Mitchell &amp; Webb Identity Theft [youtube.com] parody perfectly illustrates how it's the bank who's had money stolen and been tricked, but is trying to reframe it as if it has something to do with you.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253686</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253826</id>
	<title>mod 04</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266934440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>moans and groans 4rseholes at Walnut NIGGER community</htmltext>
<tokenext>moans and groans 4rseholes at Walnut NIGGER community</tokentext>
<sentencetext>moans and groans 4rseholes at Walnut NIGGER community</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31255050</id>
	<title>Re:Who is the victim?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266942720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't disagree... but if the system is so flawed then where does it need fixing?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't disagree... but if the system is so flawed then where does it need fixing ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't disagree... but if the system is so flawed then where does it need fixing?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253686</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31256170</id>
	<title>Samuel Jackson's Opinion</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266953220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><em>Cue in Samuel Jackson. After arriving in an El Camino at the local gas station in American Fork, UT, he gets out and takes a look at the prices.</em>

<p>
<strong>Samuel:</strong> Enough is enough. I have had it with these motherf*king prices in this motherf*king place. Strap yourself in, I'm about to fill the f*king truck.
</p><p>
<em>Samuel tosses the hose over into the back of the El Camino. Swipes his card and begins filling. Just when the back of the truck has been filled to capacity thanks to a thick, liquid-proof lining, Chuck Norris comes out of the store with an Uzi.</em>
</p><p>
<strong>Chuck:</strong> You gonna pay for all that gas.
</p><p>
<strong>Samuel:</strong> I just did!
</p><p>
<strong>Chuck:</strong> No you didn't.
</p><p>
<em>Samuel checks the pump and sees all sorts of jumbled characters. Biting his lip and cocking his head back with a nearly spent cigarette butt still in his mouth...</em>
</p><p>
<strong>Samuel:</strong> Pleeeeeez! Goddammit! I hate this hacker crap.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Cue in Samuel Jackson .
After arriving in an El Camino at the local gas station in American Fork , UT , he gets out and takes a look at the prices .
Samuel : Enough is enough .
I have had it with these motherf * king prices in this motherf * king place .
Strap yourself in , I 'm about to fill the f * king truck .
Samuel tosses the hose over into the back of the El Camino .
Swipes his card and begins filling .
Just when the back of the truck has been filled to capacity thanks to a thick , liquid-proof lining , Chuck Norris comes out of the store with an Uzi .
Chuck : You gon na pay for all that gas .
Samuel : I just did !
Chuck : No you did n't .
Samuel checks the pump and sees all sorts of jumbled characters .
Biting his lip and cocking his head back with a nearly spent cigarette butt still in his mouth.. . Samuel : Pleeeeeez !
Goddammit ! I hate this hacker crap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cue in Samuel Jackson.
After arriving in an El Camino at the local gas station in American Fork, UT, he gets out and takes a look at the prices.
Samuel: Enough is enough.
I have had it with these motherf*king prices in this motherf*king place.
Strap yourself in, I'm about to fill the f*king truck.
Samuel tosses the hose over into the back of the El Camino.
Swipes his card and begins filling.
Just when the back of the truck has been filled to capacity thanks to a thick, liquid-proof lining, Chuck Norris comes out of the store with an Uzi.
Chuck: You gonna pay for all that gas.
Samuel: I just did!
Chuck: No you didn't.
Samuel checks the pump and sees all sorts of jumbled characters.
Biting his lip and cocking his head back with a nearly spent cigarette butt still in his mouth...

Samuel: Pleeeeeez!
Goddammit! I hate this hacker crap.
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31258004</id>
	<title>Economics FAIL</title>
	<author>wintercolby</author>
	<datestamp>1265117280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm sorry, but in psuedo code:<br>
<br>
Price != Cost + desired margin(profit)<br>
Price == demand/supply<br>
<br>
As evidence:<br>
The average price in New Jersey is <a href="http://www.newjerseygasprices.com/" title="newjerseygasprices.com" rel="nofollow">2.47 per gallon</a> [newjerseygasprices.com], and the average fuel price in Pennsylvania is <a href="http://www.pennsylvaniagasprices.com//" title="pennsylvan...prices.com" rel="nofollow">2.73 per gallon</a> [pennsylvan...prices.com].  New Jersey has a law that all pumps MUST be full service, so they have to hire at least one extra attendant, this does nothing to the price in comparison to prices in neighboring states.  I am not suggesting that the minimum raise be increased, Economics 101 states that the net affect of minimum wage IS teenagers and college students with less work experience while the economy catches up to absorb the difference.  I am suggesting that gas stations start paying their employees a living wage and provide reasonable benefits, and then brag like hell.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sorry , but in psuedo code : Price ! = Cost + desired margin ( profit ) Price = = demand/supply As evidence : The average price in New Jersey is 2.47 per gallon [ newjerseygasprices.com ] , and the average fuel price in Pennsylvania is 2.73 per gallon [ pennsylvan...prices.com ] .
New Jersey has a law that all pumps MUST be full service , so they have to hire at least one extra attendant , this does nothing to the price in comparison to prices in neighboring states .
I am not suggesting that the minimum raise be increased , Economics 101 states that the net affect of minimum wage IS teenagers and college students with less work experience while the economy catches up to absorb the difference .
I am suggesting that gas stations start paying their employees a living wage and provide reasonable benefits , and then brag like hell .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sorry, but in psuedo code:

Price != Cost + desired margin(profit)
Price == demand/supply

As evidence:
The average price in New Jersey is 2.47 per gallon [newjerseygasprices.com], and the average fuel price in Pennsylvania is 2.73 per gallon [pennsylvan...prices.com].
New Jersey has a law that all pumps MUST be full service, so they have to hire at least one extra attendant, this does nothing to the price in comparison to prices in neighboring states.
I am not suggesting that the minimum raise be increased, Economics 101 states that the net affect of minimum wage IS teenagers and college students with less work experience while the economy catches up to absorb the difference.
I am suggesting that gas stations start paying their employees a living wage and provide reasonable benefits, and then brag like hell.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2236254.31253648</parent>
</comment>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_2236254_8</id>
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