<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_02_23_0125235</id>
	<title>NGO Networks In Haiti Cause Problems For ISPs</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1266952920000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="http://www.goodgearguide.com.au/" rel="nofollow">angry tapir</a> sends in an article from GoodGear Guide that begins: <i>"While the communications networks that aid groups set up quickly following the earthquake in Haiti were surely critical to rescue efforts, the new networks have had <a href="http://www.goodgearguide.com.au/article/337060">some negative effects on the local ISP community</a>. More than a month after the earthquake devastated the island nation, local ISPs are starting to grumble about being left out of business opportunities and about how some of the temporary equipment &mdash; using spectrum without proper authorization &mdash; is interfering with their own expensive networks, causing a degradation of their services."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>angry tapir sends in an article from GoodGear Guide that begins : " While the communications networks that aid groups set up quickly following the earthquake in Haiti were surely critical to rescue efforts , the new networks have had some negative effects on the local ISP community .
More than a month after the earthquake devastated the island nation , local ISPs are starting to grumble about being left out of business opportunities and about how some of the temporary equipment    using spectrum without proper authorization    is interfering with their own expensive networks , causing a degradation of their services .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>angry tapir sends in an article from GoodGear Guide that begins: "While the communications networks that aid groups set up quickly following the earthquake in Haiti were surely critical to rescue efforts, the new networks have had some negative effects on the local ISP community.
More than a month after the earthquake devastated the island nation, local ISPs are starting to grumble about being left out of business opportunities and about how some of the temporary equipment — using spectrum without proper authorization — is interfering with their own expensive networks, causing a degradation of their services.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243218</id>
	<title>Re:Haw</title>
	<author>Kizeh</author>
	<datestamp>1266932520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, yes we do. Satellite capacity is limited, and requires fairly expensive and advanced handsets. Good for important, long range communications. Putting up an FM / UHF repeater to serve a bunch of metropolitan two-way analog radios, or an HF antenna to serve long-range analog communications is simple, cheap, cost effective and with prepared hams a matter of hours, if not less. They've repeatedly proven to be useful after emergencies when no official communications capability has existed, or what exists has been overwhelmed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , yes we do .
Satellite capacity is limited , and requires fairly expensive and advanced handsets .
Good for important , long range communications .
Putting up an FM / UHF repeater to serve a bunch of metropolitan two-way analog radios , or an HF antenna to serve long-range analog communications is simple , cheap , cost effective and with prepared hams a matter of hours , if not less .
They 've repeatedly proven to be useful after emergencies when no official communications capability has existed , or what exists has been overwhelmed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, yes we do.
Satellite capacity is limited, and requires fairly expensive and advanced handsets.
Good for important, long range communications.
Putting up an FM / UHF repeater to serve a bunch of metropolitan two-way analog radios, or an HF antenna to serve long-range analog communications is simple, cheap, cost effective and with prepared hams a matter of hours, if not less.
They've repeatedly proven to be useful after emergencies when no official communications capability has existed, or what exists has been overwhelmed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241930</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241884</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>JorDan Clock</author>
	<datestamp>1266915660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Fundamental flaw in the system? I didn't think people choosing free/really cheap products over more expensive products is necessarily a flaw in the system. If anything, it's similar to how sweat shops affect an industry: Really cheap labor and really cheap materials from one country being dumped into another country that produces the same good, but at higher costs.<br> <br>If your industries can't compete with one product, don't whine about it. Make another product and sell it to them! Maybe they should put those free clothes on some cheap laborers and have them go back to making rip off (or legitimate, I'm not sure anymore.) Nike's and sports jerseys; Stuff American's pay crazy high prices for even though the material and labor costs are crazy low.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Fundamental flaw in the system ?
I did n't think people choosing free/really cheap products over more expensive products is necessarily a flaw in the system .
If anything , it 's similar to how sweat shops affect an industry : Really cheap labor and really cheap materials from one country being dumped into another country that produces the same good , but at higher costs .
If your industries ca n't compete with one product , do n't whine about it .
Make another product and sell it to them !
Maybe they should put those free clothes on some cheap laborers and have them go back to making rip off ( or legitimate , I 'm not sure anymore .
) Nike 's and sports jerseys ; Stuff American 's pay crazy high prices for even though the material and labor costs are crazy low .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fundamental flaw in the system?
I didn't think people choosing free/really cheap products over more expensive products is necessarily a flaw in the system.
If anything, it's similar to how sweat shops affect an industry: Really cheap labor and really cheap materials from one country being dumped into another country that produces the same good, but at higher costs.
If your industries can't compete with one product, don't whine about it.
Make another product and sell it to them!
Maybe they should put those free clothes on some cheap laborers and have them go back to making rip off (or legitimate, I'm not sure anymore.
) Nike's and sports jerseys; Stuff American's pay crazy high prices for even though the material and labor costs are crazy low.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242244</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266920580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Blimey, this redistribution of wealth is trickier than I thought.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Blimey , this redistribution of wealth is trickier than I thought .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Blimey, this redistribution of wealth is trickier than I thought.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242334</id>
	<title>Re:Haw</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266922140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>And stop killing our ham radio operators, you goddamn savages.</i> <br> <br>Hate to be responding to a troll, but do you really think that every one of 9 million people in Haiti was responsible for shooting at some Dominicans? Do you consider yourself a goddamned savage because some Americans commit crimes and murders too?</htmltext>
<tokenext>And stop killing our ham radio operators , you goddamn savages .
Hate to be responding to a troll , but do you really think that every one of 9 million people in Haiti was responsible for shooting at some Dominicans ?
Do you consider yourself a goddamned savage because some Americans commit crimes and murders too ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And stop killing our ham radio operators, you goddamn savages.
Hate to be responding to a troll, but do you really think that every one of 9 million people in Haiti was responsible for shooting at some Dominicans?
Do you consider yourself a goddamned savage because some Americans commit crimes and murders too?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710</id>
	<title>Haw</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266956880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The aid organizations could better help Haiti in the long term by hiring the local companies, one Haitian with close ties to the ISP community said. "In order to help rebuild the economy, it would be better if they purchased from the local providers," said St&#233;phane Bruno, a Haitian IT consultant who works closely with the ISPs.</p></div></blockquote><p>

Asking for handouts, asking for treatment of the symptoms rather than the illness. Hey, Haiti, you can be every bit as greedy and corrupt as the U.S. when you learn how to wipe your own asses. Until then, "do as we say, not as we do." And stop killing our ham radio operators, you goddamn savages.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The aid organizations could better help Haiti in the long term by hiring the local companies , one Haitian with close ties to the ISP community said .
" In order to help rebuild the economy , it would be better if they purchased from the local providers , " said St   phane Bruno , a Haitian IT consultant who works closely with the ISPs .
Asking for handouts , asking for treatment of the symptoms rather than the illness .
Hey , Haiti , you can be every bit as greedy and corrupt as the U.S. when you learn how to wipe your own asses .
Until then , " do as we say , not as we do .
" And stop killing our ham radio operators , you goddamn savages .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The aid organizations could better help Haiti in the long term by hiring the local companies, one Haitian with close ties to the ISP community said.
"In order to help rebuild the economy, it would be better if they purchased from the local providers," said Stéphane Bruno, a Haitian IT consultant who works closely with the ISPs.
Asking for handouts, asking for treatment of the symptoms rather than the illness.
Hey, Haiti, you can be every bit as greedy and corrupt as the U.S. when you learn how to wipe your own asses.
Until then, "do as we say, not as we do.
" And stop killing our ham radio operators, you goddamn savages.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31245298</id>
	<title>UserFriendly already covered it...</title>
	<author>Noughmad</author>
	<datestamp>1266944940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20090109" title="userfriendly.org" rel="nofollow">http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20090109</a> [userfriendly.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/ ? id = 20090109 [ userfriendly.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20090109 [userfriendly.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242652</id>
	<title>No it isn't...</title>
	<author>denzacar</author>
	<datestamp>1266926640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nothing is being "donated to the country". At least regarding "the internets".</p><p>NGOs that are there to provide aid got their own satellite and wireless links because none of the local IPSs were operational at the moment. Nothing is being donated (to Haiti) - it is for their own operational and personal use.<br>Later, since Haitian internet backbone is operational, the backhaul bandwidth was donated (to the NGOs) by two local ISPs - AccessHaiti and MultiLink.</p><p>So in fact, Haitian companies are donating the bandwidth to NGOs who are donating the humanitarian aid and services to Haiti.</p><p>But, now that the local small ISPs are coming back online, they (local ISPs) find that the NGOs are quite happy with their current setup and don't really need the local wireless services - but are willing to switch, they just need more time.<br>They are kinda busy doing something a little more important at the moment.</p><p>Being practically the only game in town (read: the only paying customers) - local ISPs would really like to sell them their services.<br>But, on top of that, the wireless relays the NGOs have set up for themselves are drowning out the wireless signal of the local ISPs.</p><p>So, basically...<br>1 - Local ISP companies are providing the bandwidth to the relief workers for free. Which will probably change in the future.<br>2 - NGOs have their own equipment for the use and distributing of that bandwidth - and they are providing the humanitarian aid for free. They are willing to pay for the bandwidth but are asking for more time to switch to the local providers as they are rather busy at the moment.<br>3 - Local small ISPs would like to sell THEIR bandwidth (that they will buy from the ISPs mentioned under 1) to the NGOs - but they lack the capacity to do that as their wireless networks are being drowned out by the signal of the NGO's equipment.</p><p>So... it is not the case of donated food drowning out the local production.<br>But it is going to be, one way or the other, for a while at least. Because the local ISPs want it that way.<br>Cause it will take time for the local customers to be able to match the NGO's ability to buy the services of the local ISPs.<br>Who will then fix their prices to match the paying capabilities of the NGOs - NOT the local population.<br>So... in the long run, the locals will have to pay more for less longer - because NGOs can pay more and thereby they set the prices.</p><p>But in the LONGER run, when NGOs leave, locals will be left with a working ISP structure, and some money will flow into the community.<br>So, not quite like donating food. Or clothes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nothing is being " donated to the country " .
At least regarding " the internets " .NGOs that are there to provide aid got their own satellite and wireless links because none of the local IPSs were operational at the moment .
Nothing is being donated ( to Haiti ) - it is for their own operational and personal use.Later , since Haitian internet backbone is operational , the backhaul bandwidth was donated ( to the NGOs ) by two local ISPs - AccessHaiti and MultiLink.So in fact , Haitian companies are donating the bandwidth to NGOs who are donating the humanitarian aid and services to Haiti.But , now that the local small ISPs are coming back online , they ( local ISPs ) find that the NGOs are quite happy with their current setup and do n't really need the local wireless services - but are willing to switch , they just need more time.They are kinda busy doing something a little more important at the moment.Being practically the only game in town ( read : the only paying customers ) - local ISPs would really like to sell them their services.But , on top of that , the wireless relays the NGOs have set up for themselves are drowning out the wireless signal of the local ISPs.So , basically...1 - Local ISP companies are providing the bandwidth to the relief workers for free .
Which will probably change in the future.2 - NGOs have their own equipment for the use and distributing of that bandwidth - and they are providing the humanitarian aid for free .
They are willing to pay for the bandwidth but are asking for more time to switch to the local providers as they are rather busy at the moment.3 - Local small ISPs would like to sell THEIR bandwidth ( that they will buy from the ISPs mentioned under 1 ) to the NGOs - but they lack the capacity to do that as their wireless networks are being drowned out by the signal of the NGO 's equipment.So... it is not the case of donated food drowning out the local production.But it is going to be , one way or the other , for a while at least .
Because the local ISPs want it that way.Cause it will take time for the local customers to be able to match the NGO 's ability to buy the services of the local ISPs.Who will then fix their prices to match the paying capabilities of the NGOs - NOT the local population.So... in the long run , the locals will have to pay more for less longer - because NGOs can pay more and thereby they set the prices.But in the LONGER run , when NGOs leave , locals will be left with a working ISP structure , and some money will flow into the community.So , not quite like donating food .
Or clothes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nothing is being "donated to the country".
At least regarding "the internets".NGOs that are there to provide aid got their own satellite and wireless links because none of the local IPSs were operational at the moment.
Nothing is being donated (to Haiti) - it is for their own operational and personal use.Later, since Haitian internet backbone is operational, the backhaul bandwidth was donated (to the NGOs) by two local ISPs - AccessHaiti and MultiLink.So in fact, Haitian companies are donating the bandwidth to NGOs who are donating the humanitarian aid and services to Haiti.But, now that the local small ISPs are coming back online, they (local ISPs) find that the NGOs are quite happy with their current setup and don't really need the local wireless services - but are willing to switch, they just need more time.They are kinda busy doing something a little more important at the moment.Being practically the only game in town (read: the only paying customers) - local ISPs would really like to sell them their services.But, on top of that, the wireless relays the NGOs have set up for themselves are drowning out the wireless signal of the local ISPs.So, basically...1 - Local ISP companies are providing the bandwidth to the relief workers for free.
Which will probably change in the future.2 - NGOs have their own equipment for the use and distributing of that bandwidth - and they are providing the humanitarian aid for free.
They are willing to pay for the bandwidth but are asking for more time to switch to the local providers as they are rather busy at the moment.3 - Local small ISPs would like to sell THEIR bandwidth (that they will buy from the ISPs mentioned under 1) to the NGOs - but they lack the capacity to do that as their wireless networks are being drowned out by the signal of the NGO's equipment.So... it is not the case of donated food drowning out the local production.But it is going to be, one way or the other, for a while at least.
Because the local ISPs want it that way.Cause it will take time for the local customers to be able to match the NGO's ability to buy the services of the local ISPs.Who will then fix their prices to match the paying capabilities of the NGOs - NOT the local population.So... in the long run, the locals will have to pay more for less longer - because NGOs can pay more and thereby they set the prices.But in the LONGER run, when NGOs leave, locals will be left with a working ISP structure, and some money will flow into the community.So, not quite like donating food.
Or clothes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241912</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266915960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is the fundamental reason why we don't dump all of our uneaten food into starving countries. Doing so strongly devalues the local farmer's products and makes it difficult for them to buy seed and fertilizer for the next year.</p><p>It's extremely difficult to compete with free or very, very cheap. In the corporate world, if this is done it's called 'dumping'. In the world food aid world, it's only done if the demand for food far outstrips supplies and doing so would not impact food prices significantly.</p><p>Thus, why the west can live in food glut conditions while many africans are malnourished. Suddenly feeding them all for free would collapse the mainstay of their internal economy.</p><p>Tricky, isn't it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is the fundamental reason why we do n't dump all of our uneaten food into starving countries .
Doing so strongly devalues the local farmer 's products and makes it difficult for them to buy seed and fertilizer for the next year.It 's extremely difficult to compete with free or very , very cheap .
In the corporate world , if this is done it 's called 'dumping' .
In the world food aid world , it 's only done if the demand for food far outstrips supplies and doing so would not impact food prices significantly.Thus , why the west can live in food glut conditions while many africans are malnourished .
Suddenly feeding them all for free would collapse the mainstay of their internal economy.Tricky , is n't it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is the fundamental reason why we don't dump all of our uneaten food into starving countries.
Doing so strongly devalues the local farmer's products and makes it difficult for them to buy seed and fertilizer for the next year.It's extremely difficult to compete with free or very, very cheap.
In the corporate world, if this is done it's called 'dumping'.
In the world food aid world, it's only done if the demand for food far outstrips supplies and doing so would not impact food prices significantly.Thus, why the west can live in food glut conditions while many africans are malnourished.
Suddenly feeding them all for free would collapse the mainstay of their internal economy.Tricky, isn't it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242912</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>Yvanhoe</author>
	<datestamp>1266929760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Donating clothes is bad, but in my experience, the most likely situation here is that cell phone operators fear that people get used to cheap service and they want their monopoly back.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Donating clothes is bad , but in my experience , the most likely situation here is that cell phone operators fear that people get used to cheap service and they want their monopoly back .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Donating clothes is bad, but in my experience, the most likely situation here is that cell phone operators fear that people get used to cheap service and they want their monopoly back.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242838</id>
	<title>Now all Haiti needs is 100,000 Mexican workers.</title>
	<author>bezenek</author>
	<datestamp>1266928980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Now we can ship 100,000 Mexican workers to Haiti to rebuild everything.  They will earn US government-subsidized wages while the Haitians--who need the money/work--relax and watch!<br> <br>
Oh... Sorry... That was Katrina/New Orleans.<br> <br>

-Todd</htmltext>
<tokenext>Now we can ship 100,000 Mexican workers to Haiti to rebuild everything .
They will earn US government-subsidized wages while the Haitians--who need the money/work--relax and watch !
Oh... Sorry... That was Katrina/New Orleans .
-Todd</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now we can ship 100,000 Mexican workers to Haiti to rebuild everything.
They will earn US government-subsidized wages while the Haitians--who need the money/work--relax and watch!
Oh... Sorry... That was Katrina/New Orleans.
-Todd</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242074</id>
	<title>Re:No good deed.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266918060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I hear you, however this era of 'altruism' may feel like we are patronizing the Haitians. It is true that giving food and temporary shelters is great and will save some lifes, but you cannot just rebuild a country by doing this. <br> <br>
But, in order to rebuild a country, you need more than just throwing food at refugees. <a href="http://www.newsweek.com/id/232907" title="newsweek.com" rel="nofollow">This</a> [newsweek.com] article is interesting as it brings Katrina experience to help Haiti. It seems the best results happen when the locals are involved. There are many reports of this in Thailand after the tsunami. <br> <br>
There is nothing wrong with helping but helping without asking the opinion of the locals and keeping out of the loop will never give good results, it will leave the impression that you treat them like children and infantilize them. Now that the local ISPs have voiced their opinion, we should listen to their proposals and try to formulate a plan.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I hear you , however this era of 'altruism ' may feel like we are patronizing the Haitians .
It is true that giving food and temporary shelters is great and will save some lifes , but you can not just rebuild a country by doing this .
But , in order to rebuild a country , you need more than just throwing food at refugees .
This [ newsweek.com ] article is interesting as it brings Katrina experience to help Haiti .
It seems the best results happen when the locals are involved .
There are many reports of this in Thailand after the tsunami .
There is nothing wrong with helping but helping without asking the opinion of the locals and keeping out of the loop will never give good results , it will leave the impression that you treat them like children and infantilize them .
Now that the local ISPs have voiced their opinion , we should listen to their proposals and try to formulate a plan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hear you, however this era of 'altruism' may feel like we are patronizing the Haitians.
It is true that giving food and temporary shelters is great and will save some lifes, but you cannot just rebuild a country by doing this.
But, in order to rebuild a country, you need more than just throwing food at refugees.
This [newsweek.com] article is interesting as it brings Katrina experience to help Haiti.
It seems the best results happen when the locals are involved.
There are many reports of this in Thailand after the tsunami.
There is nothing wrong with helping but helping without asking the opinion of the locals and keeping out of the loop will never give good results, it will leave the impression that you treat them like children and infantilize them.
Now that the local ISPs have voiced their opinion, we should listen to their proposals and try to formulate a plan.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241702</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241882</id>
	<title>Dead Aid</title>
	<author>matushorvath</author>
	<datestamp>1266915600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I read an interesting book on the subject, by an African woman with first hand experience with aid (Dambisa Moyo: Dead Aid - Why Aid Is Not Working and How There Is a Better Way for Africa). It explains with how sending aid to poor countries often causes more problems then it solves. If you give something for free, you ruin the part of economy that provided the same thing for money. Then when the aid stops, there are no local producers to replace it. The countries become dependent on aid.</p><p>Of course this does not apply to emergency situations like the one in Haiti, where there was no local producer to produce enough food, shelter, water... But if there are local ISPs capable of providing internet access, then the NGOs should definitely use them, and not compete with them by maintaining their own network. That would give work to the local people, which in turn helps a bit in re-establishing the Haitian economy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I read an interesting book on the subject , by an African woman with first hand experience with aid ( Dambisa Moyo : Dead Aid - Why Aid Is Not Working and How There Is a Better Way for Africa ) .
It explains with how sending aid to poor countries often causes more problems then it solves .
If you give something for free , you ruin the part of economy that provided the same thing for money .
Then when the aid stops , there are no local producers to replace it .
The countries become dependent on aid.Of course this does not apply to emergency situations like the one in Haiti , where there was no local producer to produce enough food , shelter , water... But if there are local ISPs capable of providing internet access , then the NGOs should definitely use them , and not compete with them by maintaining their own network .
That would give work to the local people , which in turn helps a bit in re-establishing the Haitian economy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I read an interesting book on the subject, by an African woman with first hand experience with aid (Dambisa Moyo: Dead Aid - Why Aid Is Not Working and How There Is a Better Way for Africa).
It explains with how sending aid to poor countries often causes more problems then it solves.
If you give something for free, you ruin the part of economy that provided the same thing for money.
Then when the aid stops, there are no local producers to replace it.
The countries become dependent on aid.Of course this does not apply to emergency situations like the one in Haiti, where there was no local producer to produce enough food, shelter, water... But if there are local ISPs capable of providing internet access, then the NGOs should definitely use them, and not compete with them by maintaining their own network.
That would give work to the local people, which in turn helps a bit in re-establishing the Haitian economy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241930</id>
	<title>Re:Haw</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266916140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>And stop killing our ham radio operators, you goddamn savages.</p></div><p>One of the articles found by google said it was Dominican people who were attacked. Are you Dominican? Maybe US ham radio operators should try installing repeaters in Pakistan, Afganistan, Iraq and Iran and see how they get on.</p><p>And while I am at it, do we really need earth based repeaters in this day and age? Aren't there enough birds in the sky, especially over the Americas?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And stop killing our ham radio operators , you goddamn savages.One of the articles found by google said it was Dominican people who were attacked .
Are you Dominican ?
Maybe US ham radio operators should try installing repeaters in Pakistan , Afganistan , Iraq and Iran and see how they get on.And while I am at it , do we really need earth based repeaters in this day and age ?
Are n't there enough birds in the sky , especially over the Americas ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And stop killing our ham radio operators, you goddamn savages.One of the articles found by google said it was Dominican people who were attacked.
Are you Dominican?
Maybe US ham radio operators should try installing repeaters in Pakistan, Afganistan, Iraq and Iran and see how they get on.And while I am at it, do we really need earth based repeaters in this day and age?
Aren't there enough birds in the sky, especially over the Americas?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242268</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>noidentity</author>
	<datestamp>1266920880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>in that case, the free clothes have devastated local clothes industry. There's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them...</p></div>
</blockquote><p>Agreed. That's why I love having support and being able to sit on the couch all day long, every day. But for some reason, I'm barely strong enough to even stand. Oh well, who needs muscles anyway?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>in that case , the free clothes have devastated local clothes industry .
There 's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them.. . Agreed. That 's why I love having support and being able to sit on the couch all day long , every day .
But for some reason , I 'm barely strong enough to even stand .
Oh well , who needs muscles anyway ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>in that case, the free clothes have devastated local clothes industry.
There's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them...
Agreed. That's why I love having support and being able to sit on the couch all day long, every day.
But for some reason, I'm barely strong enough to even stand.
Oh well, who needs muscles anyway?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243020</id>
	<title>Re:No good deed.....</title>
	<author>demonlapin</author>
	<datestamp>1266930540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>A really good deed that would have helped the country out would be for the NGO's to hire local ISPs for their connection.  Restarts the local economy while taking advantage of people who've already solved most of the same problems you're going to have.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A really good deed that would have helped the country out would be for the NGO 's to hire local ISPs for their connection .
Restarts the local economy while taking advantage of people who 've already solved most of the same problems you 're going to have .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A really good deed that would have helped the country out would be for the NGO's to hire local ISPs for their connection.
Restarts the local economy while taking advantage of people who've already solved most of the same problems you're going to have.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241702</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241910</id>
	<title>Technology and home</title>
	<author>countertop</author>
	<datestamp>1266915900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>About technology and countertops: <a href="http://www.livingstonesurfaces.com/" title="livingstonesurfaces.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.livingstonesurfaces.com/</a> [livingstonesurfaces.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>About technology and countertops : http : //www.livingstonesurfaces.com/ [ livingstonesurfaces.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>About technology and countertops: http://www.livingstonesurfaces.com/ [livingstonesurfaces.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241924</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>thsths</author>
	<datestamp>1266916080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; There's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them...</p><p>The flaw is that the free stuff will not flow forever.  So it is important to maintain both commercially viable local systems, and a functioning local society.  Both aspects have received way too little attention in Haiti, and that is the reason that most of the aid will fail in making a lasting impact.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; There 's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them...The flaw is that the free stuff will not flow forever .
So it is important to maintain both commercially viable local systems , and a functioning local society .
Both aspects have received way too little attention in Haiti , and that is the reason that most of the aid will fail in making a lasting impact .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; There's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them...The flaw is that the free stuff will not flow forever.
So it is important to maintain both commercially viable local systems, and a functioning local society.
Both aspects have received way too little attention in Haiti, and that is the reason that most of the aid will fail in making a lasting impact.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241702</id>
	<title>No good deed.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266956760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>goes un-complained about</htmltext>
<tokenext>goes un-complained about</tokentext>
<sentencetext>goes un-complained about</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31244032</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>stdarg</author>
	<datestamp>1266938400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The NGOs are not taking away customers or resources from the ISPs so that analogy doesn't work. (Well, except for the interference issue, which is true but simply a result of the non-functioning Haitian government in the aftermath of the earthquake... I'm sure they will get their frequencies sorted out.)</p><p>It's more like this (after the interference issues are solved). Someone came in and set up their own clothing factory, but they are only providing clothing to their own workers. Those workers wouldn't even be there if it hadn't been for the earthquake, so the local clothing factory is not being harmed at all. Then the local factories whine about missing "business opportunities". It's pretty shameless.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The NGOs are not taking away customers or resources from the ISPs so that analogy does n't work .
( Well , except for the interference issue , which is true but simply a result of the non-functioning Haitian government in the aftermath of the earthquake... I 'm sure they will get their frequencies sorted out .
) It 's more like this ( after the interference issues are solved ) .
Someone came in and set up their own clothing factory , but they are only providing clothing to their own workers .
Those workers would n't even be there if it had n't been for the earthquake , so the local clothing factory is not being harmed at all .
Then the local factories whine about missing " business opportunities " .
It 's pretty shameless .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The NGOs are not taking away customers or resources from the ISPs so that analogy doesn't work.
(Well, except for the interference issue, which is true but simply a result of the non-functioning Haitian government in the aftermath of the earthquake... I'm sure they will get their frequencies sorted out.
)It's more like this (after the interference issues are solved).
Someone came in and set up their own clothing factory, but they are only providing clothing to their own workers.
Those workers wouldn't even be there if it hadn't been for the earthquake, so the local clothing factory is not being harmed at all.
Then the local factories whine about missing "business opportunities".
It's pretty shameless.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242110</id>
	<title>Re:Haw</title>
	<author>BlueTrin</author>
	<datestamp>1266918840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In any crisis, the worst can come out of people who are usually held in place by the law. Just look at <a href="http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/07/katrina-rape-murder-.html" title="boingboing.net" rel="nofollow">what happened after Katrina</a> [boingboing.net]</htmltext>
<tokenext>In any crisis , the worst can come out of people who are usually held in place by the law .
Just look at what happened after Katrina [ boingboing.net ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In any crisis, the worst can come out of people who are usually held in place by the law.
Just look at what happened after Katrina [boingboing.net]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243080</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>demonlapin</author>
	<datestamp>1266931080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them...</p></div><p>Would you be upset if (e.g.) Wal-Mart came into your town, opened a mega-market, and promptly put every mom and pop store out of business because they sell things cheaper?  How do you think that any local industry can compete with "free"? (FWIW, free is a real benefit to the people getting the free stuff, but it does leave the local economy unable to provide for itself. Autarky isn't that important in developed countries, but when you live somewhere with civil unrest or unreliable utilities, where you might get cut off for a few months or a year, it starts to be a valuable thing.)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them...Would you be upset if ( e.g .
) Wal-Mart came into your town , opened a mega-market , and promptly put every mom and pop store out of business because they sell things cheaper ?
How do you think that any local industry can compete with " free " ?
( FWIW , free is a real benefit to the people getting the free stuff , but it does leave the local economy unable to provide for itself .
Autarky is n't that important in developed countries , but when you live somewhere with civil unrest or unreliable utilities , where you might get cut off for a few months or a year , it starts to be a valuable thing .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them...Would you be upset if (e.g.
) Wal-Mart came into your town, opened a mega-market, and promptly put every mom and pop store out of business because they sell things cheaper?
How do you think that any local industry can compete with "free"?
(FWIW, free is a real benefit to the people getting the free stuff, but it does leave the local economy unable to provide for itself.
Autarky isn't that important in developed countries, but when you live somewhere with civil unrest or unreliable utilities, where you might get cut off for a few months or a year, it starts to be a valuable thing.
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242118</id>
	<title>Re:Haw</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266919020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Isn't in the USA where you could be busted by the Sheriff/FBI for setting unauthorized radio systems (for example the pringles'antenna)? I do not know what is wrong about asking people (including NGO) to abide to the laws of the country; an emergency situation may justify breaking them but after that the aim should be to return to legality.</p><p>Also, as it is posted, using the country infrastructures where available will help the country get the infrastructure they need, or are the NGO going to leave their systems for use by the Haitian people?</p><p>I do not know how many people of the USA can still have this attitude of "we are doing this for your good, so I won't care at all if you are ok with it and don't you dare protest about it". One would tell that since Irak you could have learnt something...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is n't in the USA where you could be busted by the Sheriff/FBI for setting unauthorized radio systems ( for example the pringles'antenna ) ?
I do not know what is wrong about asking people ( including NGO ) to abide to the laws of the country ; an emergency situation may justify breaking them but after that the aim should be to return to legality.Also , as it is posted , using the country infrastructures where available will help the country get the infrastructure they need , or are the NGO going to leave their systems for use by the Haitian people ? I do not know how many people of the USA can still have this attitude of " we are doing this for your good , so I wo n't care at all if you are ok with it and do n't you dare protest about it " .
One would tell that since Irak you could have learnt something.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Isn't in the USA where you could be busted by the Sheriff/FBI for setting unauthorized radio systems (for example the pringles'antenna)?
I do not know what is wrong about asking people (including NGO) to abide to the laws of the country; an emergency situation may justify breaking them but after that the aim should be to return to legality.Also, as it is posted, using the country infrastructures where available will help the country get the infrastructure they need, or are the NGO going to leave their systems for use by the Haitian people?I do not know how many people of the USA can still have this attitude of "we are doing this for your good, so I won't care at all if you are ok with it and don't you dare protest about it".
One would tell that since Irak you could have learnt something...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243984</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>stdarg</author>
	<datestamp>1266938100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's a huge difference between affecting a nation's food security (which can mean mass starvation if exports fluctuate) and affecting a nation's ISPs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a huge difference between affecting a nation 's food security ( which can mean mass starvation if exports fluctuate ) and affecting a nation 's ISPs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a huge difference between affecting a nation's food security (which can mean mass starvation if exports fluctuate) and affecting a nation's ISPs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31266362</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1265113260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Uum, it&rsquo;s the same fundamental flaw in logic, as giving more food to a country, that the land can support by itself. (Talking about long-term here. Not about short-term catastrophes.)<br>Because the only effect that will have, in of course a growing population. Because people in poor countries tend to get more children, to cope with deaths. So you have to give even more.<br>Or if you don&rsquo;t, even more children will die of hunger.</p><p>So the intention of saving children from starvation, has turned into making it possible for even more children to get born, only to starve.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:/</p><p>That&rsquo;s why it&rsquo;s much wiser, to teach a man how to fish, than to give him a fish.<br>And it&rsquo;s even wiser, to support education as a whole, and to give him the Internet, as a meta-resource for everything he could possibly learn. Including how to fish.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Uum , it    s the same fundamental flaw in logic , as giving more food to a country , that the land can support by itself .
( Talking about long-term here .
Not about short-term catastrophes .
) Because the only effect that will have , in of course a growing population .
Because people in poor countries tend to get more children , to cope with deaths .
So you have to give even more.Or if you don    t , even more children will die of hunger.So the intention of saving children from starvation , has turned into making it possible for even more children to get born , only to starve .
: /That    s why it    s much wiser , to teach a man how to fish , than to give him a fish.And it    s even wiser , to support education as a whole , and to give him the Internet , as a meta-resource for everything he could possibly learn .
Including how to fish .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Uum, it’s the same fundamental flaw in logic, as giving more food to a country, that the land can support by itself.
(Talking about long-term here.
Not about short-term catastrophes.
)Because the only effect that will have, in of course a growing population.
Because people in poor countries tend to get more children, to cope with deaths.
So you have to give even more.Or if you don’t, even more children will die of hunger.So the intention of saving children from starvation, has turned into making it possible for even more children to get born, only to starve.
:/That’s why it’s much wiser, to teach a man how to fish, than to give him a fish.And it’s even wiser, to support education as a whole, and to give him the Internet, as a meta-resource for everything he could possibly learn.
Including how to fish.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242952</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266930120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What about when the local community is not able to offer the product/service you need?  In this case, I really doubt that a Haitian ISP is set up to offer enough bandwidth to cater to all those NGOs and whatnot, particularly after they get their infrastructure all destroyed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What about when the local community is not able to offer the product/service you need ?
In this case , I really doubt that a Haitian ISP is set up to offer enough bandwidth to cater to all those NGOs and whatnot , particularly after they get their infrastructure all destroyed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What about when the local community is not able to offer the product/service you need?
In this case, I really doubt that a Haitian ISP is set up to offer enough bandwidth to cater to all those NGOs and whatnot, particularly after they get their infrastructure all destroyed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242520</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31244586</id>
	<title>We did (and do) dump food.</title>
	<author>SuperBanana</author>
	<datestamp>1266941040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>This is the fundamental reason why we don't dump all of our uneaten food into starving countries. Doing so strongly devalues the local farmer's products and makes it difficult for them to buy seed and fertilizer for the next year.</i>

</p><p>We do dump food.

</p><p>In the 80's, Regan re-instituted all the price controls and tariffs on sugar.  Poorer countries which relied on the US for sugar sales suddenly found a giant chunk of their exports gone, and farmers switched to growing different crops.

</p><p>What did we do then?  Provided "assistance" food to those countries- the same crops that farmers were growing.

</p><p>I'm not sure that we still "provide" food "assistance", but I know the sugar tariff remains (which protects around a thousand corporate sugar cane growers), as do hundreds of other tariffs that protect very small farming interests and hurt worldwide access to our markets.

</p><p>Guess how High Fructose Corn Syrup became the predominant sweetener, by the way?  Yep, the price controls from the 80's made it a much cheaper alternative because the government wasn't artificially propping up the price.  Our national diet, fucked for the sake of ~1000 sugarcane farmers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is the fundamental reason why we do n't dump all of our uneaten food into starving countries .
Doing so strongly devalues the local farmer 's products and makes it difficult for them to buy seed and fertilizer for the next year .
We do dump food .
In the 80 's , Regan re-instituted all the price controls and tariffs on sugar .
Poorer countries which relied on the US for sugar sales suddenly found a giant chunk of their exports gone , and farmers switched to growing different crops .
What did we do then ?
Provided " assistance " food to those countries- the same crops that farmers were growing .
I 'm not sure that we still " provide " food " assistance " , but I know the sugar tariff remains ( which protects around a thousand corporate sugar cane growers ) , as do hundreds of other tariffs that protect very small farming interests and hurt worldwide access to our markets .
Guess how High Fructose Corn Syrup became the predominant sweetener , by the way ?
Yep , the price controls from the 80 's made it a much cheaper alternative because the government was n't artificially propping up the price .
Our national diet , fucked for the sake of ~ 1000 sugarcane farmers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> This is the fundamental reason why we don't dump all of our uneaten food into starving countries.
Doing so strongly devalues the local farmer's products and makes it difficult for them to buy seed and fertilizer for the next year.
We do dump food.
In the 80's, Regan re-instituted all the price controls and tariffs on sugar.
Poorer countries which relied on the US for sugar sales suddenly found a giant chunk of their exports gone, and farmers switched to growing different crops.
What did we do then?
Provided "assistance" food to those countries- the same crops that farmers were growing.
I'm not sure that we still "provide" food "assistance", but I know the sugar tariff remains (which protects around a thousand corporate sugar cane growers), as do hundreds of other tariffs that protect very small farming interests and hurt worldwide access to our markets.
Guess how High Fructose Corn Syrup became the predominant sweetener, by the way?
Yep, the price controls from the 80's made it a much cheaper alternative because the government wasn't artificially propping up the price.
Our national diet, fucked for the sake of ~1000 sugarcane farmers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31244922</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266942960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The fact that comments starting with "I didn't rtfa" like this are modded interesting is just sad IMO and shows no respect at all for the people working in Haiti.<br>It's not giving free stuff to a poor country, its for the the aid groups, so they are able to set up programs like http://www.oxfam.org/en/emergencies/haiti-earthquake/cash-for-work-photo-gallery</p><p>Please think twice before just flushing such a comment in the wild.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The fact that comments starting with " I did n't rtfa " like this are modded interesting is just sad IMO and shows no respect at all for the people working in Haiti.It 's not giving free stuff to a poor country , its for the the aid groups , so they are able to set up programs like http : //www.oxfam.org/en/emergencies/haiti-earthquake/cash-for-work-photo-galleryPlease think twice before just flushing such a comment in the wild .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The fact that comments starting with "I didn't rtfa" like this are modded interesting is just sad IMO and shows no respect at all for the people working in Haiti.It's not giving free stuff to a poor country, its for the the aid groups, so they are able to set up programs like http://www.oxfam.org/en/emergencies/haiti-earthquake/cash-for-work-photo-galleryPlease think twice before just flushing such a comment in the wild.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31256266</id>
	<title>Re:No good deed.....</title>
	<author>Brendan Cassidy</author>
	<datestamp>1266954480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I understand your point that fixing the problems of a developing community by just stepping in and doing it yourself doesn't affect lasting change. Feel-good projects like building schools in Africa often end up abandoned by the community once the builders leave because we try to implement solutions that are specific to <i>our</i> society without considering that other societies simply work differently. In the long term, projects that instead empower the community to solve their own problems (for instance, micro-lending organizations like Kiva) are much more effective.</p><p>However, unlike projects that try to make the world a better place for generations to come, providing network access in Haiti was never intended to be a long-term fix... Rather, it was more like an air drop of emergency rations to bombed-out areas. The network access that's being provided is <b>free</b> and is absolutely temporary, so I don't see how this could be construed as a ploy to create dependencies.</p><p>There are lots of instances where aid is provided in a non-beneficial way, but this isn't one of them. Stop trying so hard to be cynical.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I understand your point that fixing the problems of a developing community by just stepping in and doing it yourself does n't affect lasting change .
Feel-good projects like building schools in Africa often end up abandoned by the community once the builders leave because we try to implement solutions that are specific to our society without considering that other societies simply work differently .
In the long term , projects that instead empower the community to solve their own problems ( for instance , micro-lending organizations like Kiva ) are much more effective.However , unlike projects that try to make the world a better place for generations to come , providing network access in Haiti was never intended to be a long-term fix... Rather , it was more like an air drop of emergency rations to bombed-out areas .
The network access that 's being provided is free and is absolutely temporary , so I do n't see how this could be construed as a ploy to create dependencies.There are lots of instances where aid is provided in a non-beneficial way , but this is n't one of them .
Stop trying so hard to be cynical .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I understand your point that fixing the problems of a developing community by just stepping in and doing it yourself doesn't affect lasting change.
Feel-good projects like building schools in Africa often end up abandoned by the community once the builders leave because we try to implement solutions that are specific to our society without considering that other societies simply work differently.
In the long term, projects that instead empower the community to solve their own problems (for instance, micro-lending organizations like Kiva) are much more effective.However, unlike projects that try to make the world a better place for generations to come, providing network access in Haiti was never intended to be a long-term fix... Rather, it was more like an air drop of emergency rations to bombed-out areas.
The network access that's being provided is free and is absolutely temporary, so I don't see how this could be construed as a ploy to create dependencies.There are lots of instances where aid is provided in a non-beneficial way, but this isn't one of them.
Stop trying so hard to be cynical.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243570</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242184</id>
	<title>Capitalism, Baby!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266919860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is never a disaster big enough to stop capitalist exploitation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is never a disaster big enough to stop capitalist exploitation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is never a disaster big enough to stop capitalist exploitation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31246150</id>
	<title>Re:We did (and do) dump food.</title>
	<author>operagost</author>
	<datestamp>1266948180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Reagan didn't set the price.  However, the tariffs and quotas obviously had the same effect.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Reagan did n't set the price .
However , the tariffs and quotas obviously had the same effect .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Reagan didn't set the price.
However, the tariffs and quotas obviously had the same effect.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31244586</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242374</id>
	<title>Connecting Those Who Need IT Most</title>
	<author>weaselville</author>
	<datestamp>1266922620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <a href="http://inveneo.org/" title="inveneo.org" rel="nofollow">Inveneo</a> [inveneo.org] certainly does involve local service providers in their work.  In fact, that is what they are all about.  I recommend that you have a look at their interesting business model.</p><p>P.S. Their <a href="http://www.inveneo.org/?q=haiti-wifi-network" title="inveneo.org" rel="nofollow">&quot;How to Deploy Long-Distance WiFi in Haiti&quot;</a> [inveneo.org] is a very informative read for the radio geeks among us.</p><p>P.P.S. I am a former Inveneo employee.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Inveneo [ inveneo.org ] certainly does involve local service providers in their work .
In fact , that is what they are all about .
I recommend that you have a look at their interesting business model.P.S .
Their " How to Deploy Long-Distance WiFi in Haiti " [ inveneo.org ] is a very informative read for the radio geeks among us.P.P.S .
I am a former Inveneo employee .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Inveneo [inveneo.org] certainly does involve local service providers in their work.
In fact, that is what they are all about.
I recommend that you have a look at their interesting business model.P.S.
Their "How to Deploy Long-Distance WiFi in Haiti" [inveneo.org] is a very informative read for the radio geeks among us.P.P.S.
I am a former Inveneo employee.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243574</id>
	<title>Re:Haw</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266935460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran are also goddamn savages? Retard!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So Pakistan , Afghanistan , Iraq , and Iran are also goddamn savages ?
Retard !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran are also goddamn savages?
Retard!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241930</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241846</id>
	<title>Re:Haw</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266958380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When did they ever ask for handouts? You're trolling, not to mention racist.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When did they ever ask for handouts ?
You 're trolling , not to mention racist .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When did they ever ask for handouts?
You're trolling, not to mention racist.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241766</id>
	<title>Re:Haw</title>
	<author>zappepcs</author>
	<datestamp>1266957360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is a larger problem to this. Those same local ISP and service providers operate on a shoestring budget for the most part, and even in the USA operators will cut back on operating costs to keep a profit. The trouble this brings is that they are not equipped to fully integrated to emergency situations. Recent hurricanes and non-natural disasters in the USA led to regulations that are simply expensive to comply with in order to be compliant with state of emergency situations. It's expensive enough to pay for 4 hour response times to outages, but pay for 24-72 hour battery backup at every remote site, and longer at key sites and the cost is nearly unrecoverable.</p><p>When huge cash injections come for emergency aid, it DOES leave the businesses out of the loop. IMO, it's the fault of the government for not stating up front that local ISP/providers will eventually benefit from the cash and infrastructure injection as part of building future emergency response preparedness.</p><p>Yes, there are of course arguments on both sides, but I'm just saying they do have a real and rational point.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is a larger problem to this .
Those same local ISP and service providers operate on a shoestring budget for the most part , and even in the USA operators will cut back on operating costs to keep a profit .
The trouble this brings is that they are not equipped to fully integrated to emergency situations .
Recent hurricanes and non-natural disasters in the USA led to regulations that are simply expensive to comply with in order to be compliant with state of emergency situations .
It 's expensive enough to pay for 4 hour response times to outages , but pay for 24-72 hour battery backup at every remote site , and longer at key sites and the cost is nearly unrecoverable.When huge cash injections come for emergency aid , it DOES leave the businesses out of the loop .
IMO , it 's the fault of the government for not stating up front that local ISP/providers will eventually benefit from the cash and infrastructure injection as part of building future emergency response preparedness.Yes , there are of course arguments on both sides , but I 'm just saying they do have a real and rational point .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is a larger problem to this.
Those same local ISP and service providers operate on a shoestring budget for the most part, and even in the USA operators will cut back on operating costs to keep a profit.
The trouble this brings is that they are not equipped to fully integrated to emergency situations.
Recent hurricanes and non-natural disasters in the USA led to regulations that are simply expensive to comply with in order to be compliant with state of emergency situations.
It's expensive enough to pay for 4 hour response times to outages, but pay for 24-72 hour battery backup at every remote site, and longer at key sites and the cost is nearly unrecoverable.When huge cash injections come for emergency aid, it DOES leave the businesses out of the loop.
IMO, it's the fault of the government for not stating up front that local ISP/providers will eventually benefit from the cash and infrastructure injection as part of building future emergency response preparedness.Yes, there are of course arguments on both sides, but I'm just saying they do have a real and rational point.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31247038</id>
	<title>Re:mod parent up</title>
	<author>Eunuchswear</author>
	<datestamp>1266951300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I don't see why a much larger free software movement wouldn't disrupt the mainstream software industry in the same way.</p></div></blockquote><p>No reason at all.  But that is a good thing, the "mainstream software industry" is a parasite on the productive economy.  Every dollar it makes is a dollar that could have been used for doing something useful.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't see why a much larger free software movement would n't disrupt the mainstream software industry in the same way.No reason at all .
But that is a good thing , the " mainstream software industry " is a parasite on the productive economy .
Every dollar it makes is a dollar that could have been used for doing something useful .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't see why a much larger free software movement wouldn't disrupt the mainstream software industry in the same way.No reason at all.
But that is a good thing, the "mainstream software industry" is a parasite on the productive economy.
Every dollar it makes is a dollar that could have been used for doing something useful.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243976</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243408</id>
	<title>What does NGO stand for???</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266934440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I hate articles that use abbreviations but don't define them first!<br>What the hell does NGO stand for?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I hate articles that use abbreviations but do n't define them first ! What the hell does NGO stand for ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hate articles that use abbreviations but don't define them first!What the hell does NGO stand for?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241908</id>
	<title>Re:Haw</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266915900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh yea, play the race card BITCH! I'll show you trolling, you cock-smoking, butter-ass shoving, cooked penis eating, FUCKHEAD!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh yea , play the race card BITCH !
I 'll show you trolling , you cock-smoking , butter-ass shoving , cooked penis eating , FUCKHEAD !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh yea, play the race card BITCH!
I'll show you trolling, you cock-smoking, butter-ass shoving, cooked penis eating, FUCKHEAD!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241846</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241888</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266915660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The aid groups are not 'donating internets' as a relief measure, they just need the networks to be up to run their operation.<br>The networks are temporary and it doesn't sound like the NGOs have a problem working with local ISPs so no big deal.<br>I guess the story is about greedy ISPs but hey, these guys have been through hell too and they have a right to want things to get back to normal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The aid groups are not 'donating internets ' as a relief measure , they just need the networks to be up to run their operation.The networks are temporary and it does n't sound like the NGOs have a problem working with local ISPs so no big deal.I guess the story is about greedy ISPs but hey , these guys have been through hell too and they have a right to want things to get back to normal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The aid groups are not 'donating internets' as a relief measure, they just need the networks to be up to run their operation.The networks are temporary and it doesn't sound like the NGOs have a problem working with local ISPs so no big deal.I guess the story is about greedy ISPs but hey, these guys have been through hell too and they have a right to want things to get back to normal.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241920</id>
	<title>Reminds me of the joke</title>
	<author>WinstonWolfIT</author>
	<datestamp>1266916020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That ends with "He had a hat!"</htmltext>
<tokenext>That ends with " He had a hat !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That ends with "He had a hat!
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243896</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>stdarg</author>
	<datestamp>1266937680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What's greedy about it?</p></div><p>What's greedy about it is that there's a massive international relief effort going on and rather than being part of it the local ISPs want to profit from it. Look at the wording in the article, they feel left out of "business opportunities."</p><p><div class="quote"><p>A fundamental principle of international aid (and given that within the past six weeks I've been in the Solomon Islands, and on stand-by to go to Haiti, the Cook Islands and Tonga, to help with disaster relief I think I've got some clue on the topic) is that you try and spend aid money in the affected community.</p></div><p>I understand that you know a lot about this, but that doesn't make it correct in every situation. International aid is pretty inefficient in places like Africa, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan where spending locally means a big chunk of the money disappears to corruption, bribery, "security," etc. That's why there's a call from many for organizations to donate goods and services and not just cash.</p><p>Sometimes spending locally makes economic sense (to the NGO). For instance, getting a local translator is cheaper than flying in a translator, that's obvious. In this case, the cost of setting up the NGO network has already been incurred since the local ISPs were not functioning soon enough after the earthquake, so from an economic perspective it doesn't make much sense to now start paying local ISPs.</p><p>From an aid perspective, you're right of course, it helps Haitians if we donate money to their ISPs (that's what this is since there's no economic motivation for doing it) but you need to show why it makes more sense to donate to their ISPs and not, say, to a restaurant whose kitchen needs to be refurnished.</p><p>The ISPs apparently have fully functional networks again, they obviously don't need much help. They're just missing out on some profits that wouldn't be there anyway without the earthquake. It's not like their customers are canceling accounts and switching over to the free NGO network.</p><p>But the restaurant needs money to reopen and be part of the community again. Which one does the most good for the limited aid money?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What 's greedy about it ? What 's greedy about it is that there 's a massive international relief effort going on and rather than being part of it the local ISPs want to profit from it .
Look at the wording in the article , they feel left out of " business opportunities .
" A fundamental principle of international aid ( and given that within the past six weeks I 've been in the Solomon Islands , and on stand-by to go to Haiti , the Cook Islands and Tonga , to help with disaster relief I think I 've got some clue on the topic ) is that you try and spend aid money in the affected community.I understand that you know a lot about this , but that does n't make it correct in every situation .
International aid is pretty inefficient in places like Africa , Iraq , Pakistan and Afghanistan where spending locally means a big chunk of the money disappears to corruption , bribery , " security , " etc .
That 's why there 's a call from many for organizations to donate goods and services and not just cash.Sometimes spending locally makes economic sense ( to the NGO ) .
For instance , getting a local translator is cheaper than flying in a translator , that 's obvious .
In this case , the cost of setting up the NGO network has already been incurred since the local ISPs were not functioning soon enough after the earthquake , so from an economic perspective it does n't make much sense to now start paying local ISPs.From an aid perspective , you 're right of course , it helps Haitians if we donate money to their ISPs ( that 's what this is since there 's no economic motivation for doing it ) but you need to show why it makes more sense to donate to their ISPs and not , say , to a restaurant whose kitchen needs to be refurnished.The ISPs apparently have fully functional networks again , they obviously do n't need much help .
They 're just missing out on some profits that would n't be there anyway without the earthquake .
It 's not like their customers are canceling accounts and switching over to the free NGO network.But the restaurant needs money to reopen and be part of the community again .
Which one does the most good for the limited aid money ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What's greedy about it?What's greedy about it is that there's a massive international relief effort going on and rather than being part of it the local ISPs want to profit from it.
Look at the wording in the article, they feel left out of "business opportunities.
"A fundamental principle of international aid (and given that within the past six weeks I've been in the Solomon Islands, and on stand-by to go to Haiti, the Cook Islands and Tonga, to help with disaster relief I think I've got some clue on the topic) is that you try and spend aid money in the affected community.I understand that you know a lot about this, but that doesn't make it correct in every situation.
International aid is pretty inefficient in places like Africa, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan where spending locally means a big chunk of the money disappears to corruption, bribery, "security," etc.
That's why there's a call from many for organizations to donate goods and services and not just cash.Sometimes spending locally makes economic sense (to the NGO).
For instance, getting a local translator is cheaper than flying in a translator, that's obvious.
In this case, the cost of setting up the NGO network has already been incurred since the local ISPs were not functioning soon enough after the earthquake, so from an economic perspective it doesn't make much sense to now start paying local ISPs.From an aid perspective, you're right of course, it helps Haitians if we donate money to their ISPs (that's what this is since there's no economic motivation for doing it) but you need to show why it makes more sense to donate to their ISPs and not, say, to a restaurant whose kitchen needs to be refurnished.The ISPs apparently have fully functional networks again, they obviously don't need much help.
They're just missing out on some profits that wouldn't be there anyway without the earthquake.
It's not like their customers are canceling accounts and switching over to the free NGO network.But the restaurant needs money to reopen and be part of the community again.
Which one does the most good for the limited aid money?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242520</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242338</id>
	<title>Re:Haw</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266922200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You're trolling, not to mention racist.</p></div><p>I hate the anti-US-plug-in for no reason as much as the next guy, but US is not a race.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're trolling , not to mention racist.I hate the anti-US-plug-in for no reason as much as the next guy , but US is not a race .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're trolling, not to mention racist.I hate the anti-US-plug-in for no reason as much as the next guy, but US is not a race.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241846</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243314</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>ivoras</author>
	<datestamp>1266933600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them...</p></div><p>Yes, it's called "human nature" and by overwhelming agreement it's one of the worst things in the universe. Unfortunately, no two people agree on how to fix it...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them...Yes , it 's called " human nature " and by overwhelming agreement it 's one of the worst things in the universe .
Unfortunately , no two people agree on how to fix it.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them...Yes, it's called "human nature" and by overwhelming agreement it's one of the worst things in the universe.
Unfortunately, no two people agree on how to fix it...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31244104</id>
	<title>Re:Dead Aid</title>
	<author>stdarg</author>
	<datestamp>1266938700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't buy that argument. I mean, I buy it in the sense that I know it happens, but it's not necessary at all. Here's how it *should* work.</p><p>The US gives free food to Haiti, the Haitians are happy. The farmers are a bit worried -- how do they compete with free once the disaster is over?</p><p>The Haitian government recognizes this and says, don't worry farmers, you know how the US massively subsidizes their own farmers? Guess what, we're doing that too! The overall economic cost is equal since the people will be slowly taxed to the same level as what the subsidy costs, which means that over time, as you farmers become more efficient, we'll be able to just switch over to locally produced food with no economic impact.</p><p>That's what *should* happen. Instead, governments in these countries don't give a shit about food security so they never start a system like what the US has. That's the problem, not the free food! The real-world solution is the tough-love approach of just cutting off food aid, but it's a real shame because there's a perfectly acceptable alternate path that has the same end result (strong local food economy) but a much gentler approach.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't buy that argument .
I mean , I buy it in the sense that I know it happens , but it 's not necessary at all .
Here 's how it * should * work.The US gives free food to Haiti , the Haitians are happy .
The farmers are a bit worried -- how do they compete with free once the disaster is over ? The Haitian government recognizes this and says , do n't worry farmers , you know how the US massively subsidizes their own farmers ?
Guess what , we 're doing that too !
The overall economic cost is equal since the people will be slowly taxed to the same level as what the subsidy costs , which means that over time , as you farmers become more efficient , we 'll be able to just switch over to locally produced food with no economic impact.That 's what * should * happen .
Instead , governments in these countries do n't give a shit about food security so they never start a system like what the US has .
That 's the problem , not the free food !
The real-world solution is the tough-love approach of just cutting off food aid , but it 's a real shame because there 's a perfectly acceptable alternate path that has the same end result ( strong local food economy ) but a much gentler approach .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't buy that argument.
I mean, I buy it in the sense that I know it happens, but it's not necessary at all.
Here's how it *should* work.The US gives free food to Haiti, the Haitians are happy.
The farmers are a bit worried -- how do they compete with free once the disaster is over?The Haitian government recognizes this and says, don't worry farmers, you know how the US massively subsidizes their own farmers?
Guess what, we're doing that too!
The overall economic cost is equal since the people will be slowly taxed to the same level as what the subsidy costs, which means that over time, as you farmers become more efficient, we'll be able to just switch over to locally produced food with no economic impact.That's what *should* happen.
Instead, governments in these countries don't give a shit about food security so they never start a system like what the US has.
That's the problem, not the free food!
The real-world solution is the tough-love approach of just cutting off food aid, but it's a real shame because there's a perfectly acceptable alternate path that has the same end result (strong local food economy) but a much gentler approach.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241882</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243450</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266934620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I wonder how that applies to giving away free source code...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I wonder how that applies to giving away free source code.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wonder how that applies to giving away free source code...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241718</id>
	<title>Damn it....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266956880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If it weren't for the temporary networks interfering with my wireless I would have had first post</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If it were n't for the temporary networks interfering with my wireless I would have had first post</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If it weren't for the temporary networks interfering with my wireless I would have had first post</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242520</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>sn00ker</author>
	<datestamp>1266924780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I guess the story is about greedy ISPs</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
What's greedy about it? A fundamental principle of international aid (and given that within the past six weeks I've been in the Solomon Islands, and on stand-by to go to Haiti, the Cook Islands and Tonga, to help with disaster relief I think I've got some clue on the topic) is that you try and spend aid money in the affected community. The people who live there and the businesses that operate there must remain viable once the relief effort is over, and that means keeping businesses alive until the locals are in a position to earn and spend money themselves.
</p><p>
Donating services is nice if the locals cannot immediately furnish your requirements, but as soon as there's local capability available for utilisation it is a failure of the aid system if that capability goes unused. It is <strong>not</strong> a good use of aid money to use donated services in place of local ones when carrying out relief work.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess the story is about greedy ISPs What 's greedy about it ?
A fundamental principle of international aid ( and given that within the past six weeks I 've been in the Solomon Islands , and on stand-by to go to Haiti , the Cook Islands and Tonga , to help with disaster relief I think I 've got some clue on the topic ) is that you try and spend aid money in the affected community .
The people who live there and the businesses that operate there must remain viable once the relief effort is over , and that means keeping businesses alive until the locals are in a position to earn and spend money themselves .
Donating services is nice if the locals can not immediately furnish your requirements , but as soon as there 's local capability available for utilisation it is a failure of the aid system if that capability goes unused .
It is not a good use of aid money to use donated services in place of local ones when carrying out relief work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess the story is about greedy ISPs

What's greedy about it?
A fundamental principle of international aid (and given that within the past six weeks I've been in the Solomon Islands, and on stand-by to go to Haiti, the Cook Islands and Tonga, to help with disaster relief I think I've got some clue on the topic) is that you try and spend aid money in the affected community.
The people who live there and the businesses that operate there must remain viable once the relief effort is over, and that means keeping businesses alive until the locals are in a position to earn and spend money themselves.
Donating services is nice if the locals cannot immediately furnish your requirements, but as soon as there's local capability available for utilisation it is a failure of the aid system if that capability goes unused.
It is not a good use of aid money to use donated services in place of local ones when carrying out relief work.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834</id>
	<title>Flawed system.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266958140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I didn't rtfa, so I don't know if this is analogous to donating clothes to poor countries, but in that case, the free clothes have devastated local clothes industry. There's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I did n't rtfa , so I do n't know if this is analogous to donating clothes to poor countries , but in that case , the free clothes have devastated local clothes industry .
There 's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I didn't rtfa, so I don't know if this is analogous to donating clothes to poor countries, but in that case, the free clothes have devastated local clothes industry.
There's some fundamental flaw in the system if giving people free stuff is bad for them...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243976</id>
	<title>mod parent up</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266938040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I know that's considered blasphemy on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. But I think it's an excellent question. If giving food and other commodities away for free hurts other for-profit industries, I don't see why a much larger free software movement wouldn't disrupt the mainstream software industry in the same way. If OpenOffice, GIMP, et. al. ever rose to the same level (quality-wise and acceptance-wise) as Office and Photoshop, it's going to be a sad time for all those programmers and developers working at MS and Adobe who get handed a pink slip.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I know that 's considered blasphemy on / .
But I think it 's an excellent question .
If giving food and other commodities away for free hurts other for-profit industries , I do n't see why a much larger free software movement would n't disrupt the mainstream software industry in the same way .
If OpenOffice , GIMP , et .
al. ever rose to the same level ( quality-wise and acceptance-wise ) as Office and Photoshop , it 's going to be a sad time for all those programmers and developers working at MS and Adobe who get handed a pink slip .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know that's considered blasphemy on /.
But I think it's an excellent question.
If giving food and other commodities away for free hurts other for-profit industries, I don't see why a much larger free software movement wouldn't disrupt the mainstream software industry in the same way.
If OpenOffice, GIMP, et.
al. ever rose to the same level (quality-wise and acceptance-wise) as Office and Photoshop, it's going to be a sad time for all those programmers and developers working at MS and Adobe who get handed a pink slip.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243450</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242402</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>Kooty-Sentinel</author>
	<datestamp>1266923220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>
I think this is a little different than just giving out free clothes.

It's more like someone coming into your clothing factory, using your machines which YOU paid for and manufacturing and giving away free clothes. Which hurts your business.

Not saying their whining is right - I'm just saying I do get where they are coming from.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think this is a little different than just giving out free clothes .
It 's more like someone coming into your clothing factory , using your machines which YOU paid for and manufacturing and giving away free clothes .
Which hurts your business .
Not saying their whining is right - I 'm just saying I do get where they are coming from .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I think this is a little different than just giving out free clothes.
It's more like someone coming into your clothing factory, using your machines which YOU paid for and manufacturing and giving away free clothes.
Which hurts your business.
Not saying their whining is right - I'm just saying I do get where they are coming from.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243570</id>
	<title>Re:No good deed.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266935460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's not exactly a good deed. The good deed would have been to help the existing infrastructure. I always get cynical about these disasters and the appeals that inevitably follow, because with all of that cash sloshing around it's a nice big target for unscrupulous people and organisations to walk in and start taking a chunk of the pie.<br> <br>

Personally, it's why I only give to local charities I know and then work outwards. That might seem harsh, but I want to know that my money has actually gone somewhere and with stuff like this I don't know if it would. I saw hotels getting rebuilt pretty quickly and ordinary people being left with nothing when it came to the tsunami in Asia. I simply see charities as businesses who get tax-free and other breaks.<br> <br>

I also hate the dependencies that charities seem to create in third-world countries that don't help them and destroy any local industries. Cynically, I can see it as nothing other than a ploy for charities to hang around for years collecting money without any real solution to the problem - because if there was a solution they wouldn't exist!</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not exactly a good deed .
The good deed would have been to help the existing infrastructure .
I always get cynical about these disasters and the appeals that inevitably follow , because with all of that cash sloshing around it 's a nice big target for unscrupulous people and organisations to walk in and start taking a chunk of the pie .
Personally , it 's why I only give to local charities I know and then work outwards .
That might seem harsh , but I want to know that my money has actually gone somewhere and with stuff like this I do n't know if it would .
I saw hotels getting rebuilt pretty quickly and ordinary people being left with nothing when it came to the tsunami in Asia .
I simply see charities as businesses who get tax-free and other breaks .
I also hate the dependencies that charities seem to create in third-world countries that do n't help them and destroy any local industries .
Cynically , I can see it as nothing other than a ploy for charities to hang around for years collecting money without any real solution to the problem - because if there was a solution they would n't exist !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not exactly a good deed.
The good deed would have been to help the existing infrastructure.
I always get cynical about these disasters and the appeals that inevitably follow, because with all of that cash sloshing around it's a nice big target for unscrupulous people and organisations to walk in and start taking a chunk of the pie.
Personally, it's why I only give to local charities I know and then work outwards.
That might seem harsh, but I want to know that my money has actually gone somewhere and with stuff like this I don't know if it would.
I saw hotels getting rebuilt pretty quickly and ordinary people being left with nothing when it came to the tsunami in Asia.
I simply see charities as businesses who get tax-free and other breaks.
I also hate the dependencies that charities seem to create in third-world countries that don't help them and destroy any local industries.
Cynically, I can see it as nothing other than a ploy for charities to hang around for years collecting money without any real solution to the problem - because if there was a solution they wouldn't exist!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241702</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31246986</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed system.</title>
	<author>Eunuchswear</author>
	<datestamp>1266951180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>This is the fundamental reason why we don't dump all of our uneaten food into starving countries.</p></div></blockquote><p>This is Haiti.  We <b>do</b> dump our uneaten food.  That's what destroyed the Haitian farming industry, which is who such a large part of the population lives in Port au Prince instead of the countryside, which is why so many people died when the earthquake struck.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is the fundamental reason why we do n't dump all of our uneaten food into starving countries.This is Haiti .
We do dump our uneaten food .
That 's what destroyed the Haitian farming industry , which is who such a large part of the population lives in Port au Prince instead of the countryside , which is why so many people died when the earthquake struck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is the fundamental reason why we don't dump all of our uneaten food into starving countries.This is Haiti.
We do dump our uneaten food.
That's what destroyed the Haitian farming industry, which is who such a large part of the population lives in Port au Prince instead of the countryside, which is why so many people died when the earthquake struck.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243584</id>
	<title>as someone who actually has people down there...</title>
	<author>pointbeing</author>
	<datestamp>1266935520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...we showed up with a pair of satellite dishes but all our network connections are wired.  Additionally, we didn't feel we could or should rely on local ISPs for communications since we need those communications to be reliable and secure and sending a buncha people down there with no way to talk across the pond to home station didn't seem like the smartest move I've heard of.</p><p>So now the ISPs want the NGOs to shut off all the expensive hardware folks shipped down there and use local resources?</p><p>In the interest of full disclosure we do work for a GO, just not the one in Haiti.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...we showed up with a pair of satellite dishes but all our network connections are wired .
Additionally , we did n't feel we could or should rely on local ISPs for communications since we need those communications to be reliable and secure and sending a buncha people down there with no way to talk across the pond to home station did n't seem like the smartest move I 've heard of.So now the ISPs want the NGOs to shut off all the expensive hardware folks shipped down there and use local resources ? In the interest of full disclosure we do work for a GO , just not the one in Haiti .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...we showed up with a pair of satellite dishes but all our network connections are wired.
Additionally, we didn't feel we could or should rely on local ISPs for communications since we need those communications to be reliable and secure and sending a buncha people down there with no way to talk across the pond to home station didn't seem like the smartest move I've heard of.So now the ISPs want the NGOs to shut off all the expensive hardware folks shipped down there and use local resources?In the interest of full disclosure we do work for a GO, just not the one in Haiti.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_10</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243896
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242520
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241888
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_17</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243218
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241930
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_8</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31244032
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242402
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_7</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243574
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241930
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_14</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31244922
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_18</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243020
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241702
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_1</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242244
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241912
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_5</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241924
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_22</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31256266
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243570
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241702
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_9</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242912
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_26</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31246986
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241912
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_23</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243314
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_20</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242074
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241702
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_27</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241766
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_11</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241908
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241846
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_24</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242334
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_21</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242118
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_15</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242952
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242520
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241888
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_2</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31247038
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243976
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243450
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241912
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_28</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242268
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_25</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31266362
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_6</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241884
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_19</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242110
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_13</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243080
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_12</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242338
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241846
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_16</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31244104
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241882
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_0</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242652
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31246150
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31244586
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241912
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_23_0125235_3</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243984
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241912
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
</commentlist>
</thread>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_23_0125235.2</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243584
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_23_0125235.0</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241702
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243020
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243570
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31256266
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242074
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_23_0125235.4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243408
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_23_0125235.1</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241710
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242110
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241930
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243574
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243218
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242118
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241846
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241908
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242338
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241766
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242334
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_23_0125235.5</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241882
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31244104
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_23_0125235.3</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241834
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31244922
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31266362
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242912
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242402
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31244032
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243314
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241924
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241912
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243450
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243976
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31247038
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243984
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31244586
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31246150
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31246986
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242244
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242652
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243080
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241884
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242268
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31241888
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242520
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31243896
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_0125235.31242952
</commentlist>
</conversation>
