<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_02_20_2112201</id>
	<title>Math Anxiety Affects Skills As Basic As Counting</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1266661740000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>thirty-seven writes <i>"According to four Canadian psychologists, a study they have conducted shows that math anxiety, 'the feeling of fear and dread of performing mathematical calculations,' can negatively affect mathematical tasks much simpler and more basic than previously thought. In the study, participants were asked to count black squares on a white screen.  The number of squares shown ranged from one to nine and participants were given as much time as they wanted before answering.  When the number of squares was in the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subitizing\_and\_counting">subitizing range</a> (one to four), both math-anxious and non-math-anxious participants performed equally well, but when the number of squares was in the counting range (five to nine), the math-anxious group took longer and were less accurate. The University of Waterloo's <a href="http://newsrelease.uwaterloo.ca/news.php?id=5165">news release about the study</a> includes this interesting note: 'Previous studies have shown that a weakness in basic math abilities has a greater negative effect on employment opportunities than reading difficulties [do].'"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>thirty-seven writes " According to four Canadian psychologists , a study they have conducted shows that math anxiety , 'the feeling of fear and dread of performing mathematical calculations, ' can negatively affect mathematical tasks much simpler and more basic than previously thought .
In the study , participants were asked to count black squares on a white screen .
The number of squares shown ranged from one to nine and participants were given as much time as they wanted before answering .
When the number of squares was in the subitizing range ( one to four ) , both math-anxious and non-math-anxious participants performed equally well , but when the number of squares was in the counting range ( five to nine ) , the math-anxious group took longer and were less accurate .
The University of Waterloo 's news release about the study includes this interesting note : 'Previous studies have shown that a weakness in basic math abilities has a greater negative effect on employment opportunities than reading difficulties [ do ] .
' "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>thirty-seven writes "According to four Canadian psychologists, a study they have conducted shows that math anxiety, 'the feeling of fear and dread of performing mathematical calculations,' can negatively affect mathematical tasks much simpler and more basic than previously thought.
In the study, participants were asked to count black squares on a white screen.
The number of squares shown ranged from one to nine and participants were given as much time as they wanted before answering.
When the number of squares was in the subitizing range (one to four), both math-anxious and non-math-anxious participants performed equally well, but when the number of squares was in the counting range (five to nine), the math-anxious group took longer and were less accurate.
The University of Waterloo's news release about the study includes this interesting note: 'Previous studies have shown that a weakness in basic math abilities has a greater negative effect on employment opportunities than reading difficulties [do].
'"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214018</id>
	<title>More than one anxiety?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266668220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The experiment sounds more like it highlights performance anxiety.  Perhaps it's just me, but I don't equate simple "counting" with Math.  Once you start doing something with the number you've counted, then it's Math.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The experiment sounds more like it highlights performance anxiety .
Perhaps it 's just me , but I do n't equate simple " counting " with Math .
Once you start doing something with the number you 've counted , then it 's Math .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The experiment sounds more like it highlights performance anxiety.
Perhaps it's just me, but I don't equate simple "counting" with Math.
Once you start doing something with the number you've counted, then it's Math.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214414</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>UncleMidriff</author>
	<datestamp>1266671220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have a bachelor's degree in math, and I graduated with a 4.0 GPA.  Though I realize that's not all that impressive among the Slashdot crowd, I have done math that would make most normal men weep, and I excelled at it.  However, if you were to come up to me and ask me what 7*13 is, I would turn white as a sheet, stammer a bit, and, after several minutes, give you an answer that is likely incorrect.  There's just something about being put on the spot like that that shifts my brain into panic mode.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a bachelor 's degree in math , and I graduated with a 4.0 GPA .
Though I realize that 's not all that impressive among the Slashdot crowd , I have done math that would make most normal men weep , and I excelled at it .
However , if you were to come up to me and ask me what 7 * 13 is , I would turn white as a sheet , stammer a bit , and , after several minutes , give you an answer that is likely incorrect .
There 's just something about being put on the spot like that that shifts my brain into panic mode .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a bachelor's degree in math, and I graduated with a 4.0 GPA.
Though I realize that's not all that impressive among the Slashdot crowd, I have done math that would make most normal men weep, and I excelled at it.
However, if you were to come up to me and ask me what 7*13 is, I would turn white as a sheet, stammer a bit, and, after several minutes, give you an answer that is likely incorrect.
There's just something about being put on the spot like that that shifts my brain into panic mode.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214040</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213978</id>
	<title>Re:Oh God....</title>
	<author>mdwh2</author>
	<datestamp>1266667860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Mathematicians don't care about trivial things like the actual numerical answer. As long as you've shown there's a solution, that's good enough<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>(I think this applies to other subject areas - most of the subject matter is unrelated to what lay people commonly think it's about. I had a History teacher at school who said she was "bad at dates". Another example would be someone studying English, with bad spelling...)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Mathematicians do n't care about trivial things like the actual numerical answer .
As long as you 've shown there 's a solution , that 's good enough : ) ( I think this applies to other subject areas - most of the subject matter is unrelated to what lay people commonly think it 's about .
I had a History teacher at school who said she was " bad at dates " .
Another example would be someone studying English , with bad spelling... )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mathematicians don't care about trivial things like the actual numerical answer.
As long as you've shown there's a solution, that's good enough :)(I think this applies to other subject areas - most of the subject matter is unrelated to what lay people commonly think it's about.
I had a History teacher at school who said she was "bad at dates".
Another example would be someone studying English, with bad spelling...)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213864</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31217356</id>
	<title>Re:How math is taught</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266752040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Then your math tests are broken. At my university, time was never an issue for math tests, people would tend to be finished far earlier and having checked their results for the 5th time at the end of the test or they wouldn't have been able to come up with anything relevant in the last half hour.<br>Sure there are some exceptions, but usually the difference in skill and creativity of the best and the worst you still want to pass are great enough that you don't usually need time constraints to sort them.<br>Of course the problem is that designing such a really good math exam takes real skill and quite a lot of time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Then your math tests are broken .
At my university , time was never an issue for math tests , people would tend to be finished far earlier and having checked their results for the 5th time at the end of the test or they would n't have been able to come up with anything relevant in the last half hour.Sure there are some exceptions , but usually the difference in skill and creativity of the best and the worst you still want to pass are great enough that you do n't usually need time constraints to sort them.Of course the problem is that designing such a really good math exam takes real skill and quite a lot of time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then your math tests are broken.
At my university, time was never an issue for math tests, people would tend to be finished far earlier and having checked their results for the 5th time at the end of the test or they wouldn't have been able to come up with anything relevant in the last half hour.Sure there are some exceptions, but usually the difference in skill and creativity of the best and the worst you still want to pass are great enough that you don't usually need time constraints to sort them.Of course the problem is that designing such a really good math exam takes real skill and quite a lot of time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31215246</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31216236</id>
	<title>Re:We're learning more and more about math anxiety</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266689100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or get rid of genders, so that one half of the students isn't pushed to identify with teachers who embody a math-anxious gender stereotype. Oh sorry, this is Slashdot, nobody will understand what the fuck I'm talking about. Because if that alien species called girls is bad at math it must be in their genes, right?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or get rid of genders , so that one half of the students is n't pushed to identify with teachers who embody a math-anxious gender stereotype .
Oh sorry , this is Slashdot , nobody will understand what the fuck I 'm talking about .
Because if that alien species called girls is bad at math it must be in their genes , right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or get rid of genders, so that one half of the students isn't pushed to identify with teachers who embody a math-anxious gender stereotype.
Oh sorry, this is Slashdot, nobody will understand what the fuck I'm talking about.
Because if that alien species called girls is bad at math it must be in their genes, right?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214096</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213816</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>ndogg</author>
	<datestamp>1266666060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sure, and a part of science is all about confirming those things that seem "obvious."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure , and a part of science is all about confirming those things that seem " obvious .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure, and a part of science is all about confirming those things that seem "obvious.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213730</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31229128</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266853380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1. Come up to UncleMidriff.<br>2. Ask him, "what is 7 * 13?".<br>3. ???<br>4. Profit!</p><p>Hint: #3 involves a little thing called "blackmail". (Wait, are #3 hints allowed...?)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
Come up to UncleMidriff.2 .
Ask him , " what is 7 * 13 ? " .3 .
? ? ? 4. Profit ! Hint : # 3 involves a little thing called " blackmail " .
( Wait , are # 3 hints allowed... ?
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
Come up to UncleMidriff.2.
Ask him, "what is 7 * 13?".3.
???4. Profit!Hint: #3 involves a little thing called "blackmail".
(Wait, are #3 hints allowed...?
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214414</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31225994</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>Krabbs</author>
	<datestamp>1266774900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well, sometimes something that seems 'obvious' turn out to be wrong, which is why we have science.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , sometimes something that seems 'obvious ' turn out to be wrong , which is why we have science .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, sometimes something that seems 'obvious' turn out to be wrong, which is why we have science.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213730</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214124</id>
	<title>Good research</title>
	<author>T Murphy</author>
	<datestamp>1266669180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The idea that some people have a hard time with math is nothing new, but understanding what makes it difficult is important. If math anxiety affects people at such a basic level, addressing their anxiety could create a huge improvement. It would be interesting if we learn enough about how people learn that some day average math skills means a strong grasp of algebra and calculus without needing a calculator.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The idea that some people have a hard time with math is nothing new , but understanding what makes it difficult is important .
If math anxiety affects people at such a basic level , addressing their anxiety could create a huge improvement .
It would be interesting if we learn enough about how people learn that some day average math skills means a strong grasp of algebra and calculus without needing a calculator .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The idea that some people have a hard time with math is nothing new, but understanding what makes it difficult is important.
If math anxiety affects people at such a basic level, addressing their anxiety could create a huge improvement.
It would be interesting if we learn enough about how people learn that some day average math skills means a strong grasp of algebra and calculus without needing a calculator.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31216002</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266686820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Isn't it obvious that the fear of something will have an impact even on the simplest things where something relative to that fear is involved ?</p></div><p>I don't think it's math anxiety that caused these results.  I think it's anxiety in general.<br>
<br>
I took part in a psych study about a decade ago (conveniently at the U of Waterloo) for a similar thing.  I was asked to count arcs -- line-drawn half-circles, pointed in an upwards or downwards direction placed randomly on a screen.  There would be somewhere between 5 to 15 of these on the screen, and instructions were to count all the "upward arcs" or "downward arcs" as fast as possible.  After a few trials, I thought myself so good at this counting that after just a flash of the screen I would hit spacebar indicating I had counted them, then count them in my head and answer.  I'm pretty sure I got almost all of them right.  Half way through the experiment, I got really bad at this for some reason and even had to count one arc at a time or take a wild guess if I had hit spacebar too early.<br>
<br>
After the experiment I was told that many of the arcs were positioned to make faces.  The first half of the experiment had smiling faces -- 2 arcs down for happy eyebrows and an upward arc for a smiling mouth.  The second half had angry/sad faces, 2 ups for eyebrows and a down for the mouth.<br>
<br>
Turns out, the angry faces significantly affected my ability to count.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is n't it obvious that the fear of something will have an impact even on the simplest things where something relative to that fear is involved ? I do n't think it 's math anxiety that caused these results .
I think it 's anxiety in general .
I took part in a psych study about a decade ago ( conveniently at the U of Waterloo ) for a similar thing .
I was asked to count arcs -- line-drawn half-circles , pointed in an upwards or downwards direction placed randomly on a screen .
There would be somewhere between 5 to 15 of these on the screen , and instructions were to count all the " upward arcs " or " downward arcs " as fast as possible .
After a few trials , I thought myself so good at this counting that after just a flash of the screen I would hit spacebar indicating I had counted them , then count them in my head and answer .
I 'm pretty sure I got almost all of them right .
Half way through the experiment , I got really bad at this for some reason and even had to count one arc at a time or take a wild guess if I had hit spacebar too early .
After the experiment I was told that many of the arcs were positioned to make faces .
The first half of the experiment had smiling faces -- 2 arcs down for happy eyebrows and an upward arc for a smiling mouth .
The second half had angry/sad faces , 2 ups for eyebrows and a down for the mouth .
Turns out , the angry faces significantly affected my ability to count .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Isn't it obvious that the fear of something will have an impact even on the simplest things where something relative to that fear is involved ?I don't think it's math anxiety that caused these results.
I think it's anxiety in general.
I took part in a psych study about a decade ago (conveniently at the U of Waterloo) for a similar thing.
I was asked to count arcs -- line-drawn half-circles, pointed in an upwards or downwards direction placed randomly on a screen.
There would be somewhere between 5 to 15 of these on the screen, and instructions were to count all the "upward arcs" or "downward arcs" as fast as possible.
After a few trials, I thought myself so good at this counting that after just a flash of the screen I would hit spacebar indicating I had counted them, then count them in my head and answer.
I'm pretty sure I got almost all of them right.
Half way through the experiment, I got really bad at this for some reason and even had to count one arc at a time or take a wild guess if I had hit spacebar too early.
After the experiment I was told that many of the arcs were positioned to make faces.
The first half of the experiment had smiling faces -- 2 arcs down for happy eyebrows and an upward arc for a smiling mouth.
The second half had angry/sad faces, 2 ups for eyebrows and a down for the mouth.
Turns out, the angry faces significantly affected my ability to count.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213730</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213764</id>
	<title>fear of math</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266665640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would imagine that someone that was very bad at math would be anxious about having to use their weakened mathematical ability.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would imagine that someone that was very bad at math would be anxious about having to use their weakened mathematical ability .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would imagine that someone that was very bad at math would be anxious about having to use their weakened mathematical ability.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31217224</id>
	<title>Re:How math is taught</title>
	<author>u38cg</author>
	<datestamp>1266748920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As a part-time music teacher currently doing a maths degree, it is strikingly obvious that most of my lecturers are utterly clueless about basic pedagogy.  Some of their lecture techniques are downright harmful.  The classic is issuing notes, but with blanks left in "so you have to pay attention".  Result: lecturer flies through material and nobody pays him any attention while they try to find and copy down the blanks.  Grrr.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a part-time music teacher currently doing a maths degree , it is strikingly obvious that most of my lecturers are utterly clueless about basic pedagogy .
Some of their lecture techniques are downright harmful .
The classic is issuing notes , but with blanks left in " so you have to pay attention " .
Result : lecturer flies through material and nobody pays him any attention while they try to find and copy down the blanks .
Grrr .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a part-time music teacher currently doing a maths degree, it is strikingly obvious that most of my lecturers are utterly clueless about basic pedagogy.
Some of their lecture techniques are downright harmful.
The classic is issuing notes, but with blanks left in "so you have to pay attention".
Result: lecturer flies through material and nobody pays him any attention while they try to find and copy down the blanks.
Grrr.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213920</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213904</id>
	<title>Real math anxiety is...</title>
	<author>creimer</author>
	<datestamp>1266666900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Deciding whether the conditional argument of a for loop should be <i>i &lt; size<i> or <i>i &lt; (size - 1)</i> when programming.</i></i></htmltext>
<tokenext>Deciding whether the conditional argument of a for loop should be i or i when programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Deciding whether the conditional argument of a for loop should be i  or i  when programming.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31220280</id>
	<title>Re:How math is taught</title>
	<author>loserMcloser</author>
	<datestamp>1266780180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Having sat through a number of maths classes, and lectures, I find that the people teaching the subject, often fail to appreciate that what they find easy is not necessarily the case for others. This means they don't show the necessary steps or fail to find techniques to facilitate the understanding. Sometimes its almost as if they want to make maths hard to learn. Of course people end up get anxious since they end up feeling stupid.</p></div><p>Having taught a number of math classes, I find that the people taking the subject often fail to appreciate that learning math takes a considerable amount of effort <i>outside of class</i>. You should not expect to go to math lectures for three hours a week and have the subject poured into your brain in that short amount of time. You should expect that there will be times in a math class when you don't understand what the instructor is saying. It is your responsibility as a student to go over and reconstruct what the instructor did in class. Keep track of the things you didn't understand and then actually <i>spend some time thinking about them</i>! If you still can't figure them out on your own, then <i>ask questions about them later</i>.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Although we talk about car analogies here, in order to make things easy to understand to the, I find the same can benefit maths. By trying to understand what the skill set of your audience is and adapting the teaching helps. For example the 'sum' sign looks hard until (if amongst computer people) you explain its just a 'for each' with addition and the 'pi' sign is a 'for each' with multiplication. In certain cases it is equivalent to the linguistic differences between English and Chinese, in that they both can talk about the same thing, but the way in which they do so is not the same.</p></div><p>Math is taught in an abstract way because that is its power: we want mathematical facts to be as widely applicable as possible. If all the instructor teaches is car analogies, then that is all the students will learn, and will end up being lost when they need to apply the same facts to chemical processes, for example. As well, an instructor is usually not guaranteed that all his/her students are computer science majors, so tailoring examples to the audience is not always practical. There isn't time in class to come up with one analogy for the biology majors, and another analogy for the chemistry majors, and then make it really abstract for the math majors, etc. Again, it is the student's responsibility to grapple with the concepts and notation <i>on their own</i>, and if they still can't figure it out, then <i>ask for help</i>!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Having sat through a number of maths classes , and lectures , I find that the people teaching the subject , often fail to appreciate that what they find easy is not necessarily the case for others .
This means they do n't show the necessary steps or fail to find techniques to facilitate the understanding .
Sometimes its almost as if they want to make maths hard to learn .
Of course people end up get anxious since they end up feeling stupid.Having taught a number of math classes , I find that the people taking the subject often fail to appreciate that learning math takes a considerable amount of effort outside of class .
You should not expect to go to math lectures for three hours a week and have the subject poured into your brain in that short amount of time .
You should expect that there will be times in a math class when you do n't understand what the instructor is saying .
It is your responsibility as a student to go over and reconstruct what the instructor did in class .
Keep track of the things you did n't understand and then actually spend some time thinking about them !
If you still ca n't figure them out on your own , then ask questions about them later.Although we talk about car analogies here , in order to make things easy to understand to the , I find the same can benefit maths .
By trying to understand what the skill set of your audience is and adapting the teaching helps .
For example the 'sum ' sign looks hard until ( if amongst computer people ) you explain its just a 'for each ' with addition and the 'pi ' sign is a 'for each ' with multiplication .
In certain cases it is equivalent to the linguistic differences between English and Chinese , in that they both can talk about the same thing , but the way in which they do so is not the same.Math is taught in an abstract way because that is its power : we want mathematical facts to be as widely applicable as possible .
If all the instructor teaches is car analogies , then that is all the students will learn , and will end up being lost when they need to apply the same facts to chemical processes , for example .
As well , an instructor is usually not guaranteed that all his/her students are computer science majors , so tailoring examples to the audience is not always practical .
There is n't time in class to come up with one analogy for the biology majors , and another analogy for the chemistry majors , and then make it really abstract for the math majors , etc .
Again , it is the student 's responsibility to grapple with the concepts and notation on their own , and if they still ca n't figure it out , then ask for help !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having sat through a number of maths classes, and lectures, I find that the people teaching the subject, often fail to appreciate that what they find easy is not necessarily the case for others.
This means they don't show the necessary steps or fail to find techniques to facilitate the understanding.
Sometimes its almost as if they want to make maths hard to learn.
Of course people end up get anxious since they end up feeling stupid.Having taught a number of math classes, I find that the people taking the subject often fail to appreciate that learning math takes a considerable amount of effort outside of class.
You should not expect to go to math lectures for three hours a week and have the subject poured into your brain in that short amount of time.
You should expect that there will be times in a math class when you don't understand what the instructor is saying.
It is your responsibility as a student to go over and reconstruct what the instructor did in class.
Keep track of the things you didn't understand and then actually spend some time thinking about them!
If you still can't figure them out on your own, then ask questions about them later.Although we talk about car analogies here, in order to make things easy to understand to the, I find the same can benefit maths.
By trying to understand what the skill set of your audience is and adapting the teaching helps.
For example the 'sum' sign looks hard until (if amongst computer people) you explain its just a 'for each' with addition and the 'pi' sign is a 'for each' with multiplication.
In certain cases it is equivalent to the linguistic differences between English and Chinese, in that they both can talk about the same thing, but the way in which they do so is not the same.Math is taught in an abstract way because that is its power: we want mathematical facts to be as widely applicable as possible.
If all the instructor teaches is car analogies, then that is all the students will learn, and will end up being lost when they need to apply the same facts to chemical processes, for example.
As well, an instructor is usually not guaranteed that all his/her students are computer science majors, so tailoring examples to the audience is not always practical.
There isn't time in class to come up with one analogy for the biology majors, and another analogy for the chemistry majors, and then make it really abstract for the math majors, etc.
Again, it is the student's responsibility to grapple with the concepts and notation on their own, and if they still can't figure it out, then ask for help!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213920</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31222916</id>
	<title>Even picking a number is hard</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266752880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I taught remedial algebra at a community college and I found that math anxious students had a hard time just picking a number. When I wanted a number (for a slope or y intercept or what have you), I'd ask them to shout out a number. Deafening silence. It would take several minutes and I'd repeat that there is no wrong answer. Still nothing. Then someone would ask if there was really no wrong answer. Yep, no wrong answer.</p><p>I would do this all semester long until they got good at shouting out numbers. It still took weeks until someone would just shout out '2'.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I taught remedial algebra at a community college and I found that math anxious students had a hard time just picking a number .
When I wanted a number ( for a slope or y intercept or what have you ) , I 'd ask them to shout out a number .
Deafening silence .
It would take several minutes and I 'd repeat that there is no wrong answer .
Still nothing .
Then someone would ask if there was really no wrong answer .
Yep , no wrong answer.I would do this all semester long until they got good at shouting out numbers .
It still took weeks until someone would just shout out '2' .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I taught remedial algebra at a community college and I found that math anxious students had a hard time just picking a number.
When I wanted a number (for a slope or y intercept or what have you), I'd ask them to shout out a number.
Deafening silence.
It would take several minutes and I'd repeat that there is no wrong answer.
Still nothing.
Then someone would ask if there was really no wrong answer.
Yep, no wrong answer.I would do this all semester long until they got good at shouting out numbers.
It still took weeks until someone would just shout out '2'.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213830</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266666120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It was also "obvious" that the Sun orbited the Earth until a significant amount of data supporting the heliocentric theory was found.  Science requires data not just peoples' "intuition" which is very often wrong.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It was also " obvious " that the Sun orbited the Earth until a significant amount of data supporting the heliocentric theory was found .
Science requires data not just peoples ' " intuition " which is very often wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It was also "obvious" that the Sun orbited the Earth until a significant amount of data supporting the heliocentric theory was found.
Science requires data not just peoples' "intuition" which is very often wrong.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213730</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214490</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266671820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Math anxiety also inhibits the training one must secure to improve and thus conquer their anxiety.</p><p>Classical conditioning means numbers equal something to be scared of.</p><p>Operant conditioning means that avoidance of numbers rewards by removing fear.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Math anxiety also inhibits the training one must secure to improve and thus conquer their anxiety.Classical conditioning means numbers equal something to be scared of.Operant conditioning means that avoidance of numbers rewards by removing fear .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Math anxiety also inhibits the training one must secure to improve and thus conquer their anxiety.Classical conditioning means numbers equal something to be scared of.Operant conditioning means that avoidance of numbers rewards by removing fear.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214040</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214016</id>
	<title>Re:The REAL story - Canadian Uni Students are Dumb</title>
	<author>melikamp</author>
	<datestamp>1266668220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I wonder how much better they would perform if each correct response was earning them $50. Some people just won't follow even the most basic kind of instructions unless they are strongly and personally motivated.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I wonder how much better they would perform if each correct response was earning them $ 50 .
Some people just wo n't follow even the most basic kind of instructions unless they are strongly and personally motivated .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wonder how much better they would perform if each correct response was earning them $50.
Some people just won't follow even the most basic kind of instructions unless they are strongly and personally motivated.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213870</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31216044</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>fuzzyfuzzyfungus</author>
	<datestamp>1266687180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Luckily there is a fairly easy way to test that...<br> <br>

With chemical anxiolytics, you can substantially damp somebody's anxiety responses to things that usually scare them. With the right chemical anxiolytics, you can even do so without rendering them useless for other things.<br> <br>

Repeat the experiment; but have all participants(normal and anxiety groups) take a pill ~30 minutes before the questioning. Half of each group will get a placebo, half will get a milligram or two of Lorazepam. The effect of Lorazepam on the normal group will let us know if its effect on general mental acuticity at that dose is an issue. The effect on the anxiety group will tell us what we want to know. If being stupid makes you anxious, the drugged half of the anxiety group will be just as stupid (and a little happier) than the undrugged half. If anxiety makes you stupid, the drugged half of the anxiety group should perform substantially better than the undrugged half(though, if the anxiety is relatively minor, the placebo effect might also be quite helpful, so you might actually have to have three groups: nothing, placebo, Lorazepam for each of the test populations).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Luckily there is a fairly easy way to test that.. . With chemical anxiolytics , you can substantially damp somebody 's anxiety responses to things that usually scare them .
With the right chemical anxiolytics , you can even do so without rendering them useless for other things .
Repeat the experiment ; but have all participants ( normal and anxiety groups ) take a pill ~ 30 minutes before the questioning .
Half of each group will get a placebo , half will get a milligram or two of Lorazepam .
The effect of Lorazepam on the normal group will let us know if its effect on general mental acuticity at that dose is an issue .
The effect on the anxiety group will tell us what we want to know .
If being stupid makes you anxious , the drugged half of the anxiety group will be just as stupid ( and a little happier ) than the undrugged half .
If anxiety makes you stupid , the drugged half of the anxiety group should perform substantially better than the undrugged half ( though , if the anxiety is relatively minor , the placebo effect might also be quite helpful , so you might actually have to have three groups : nothing , placebo , Lorazepam for each of the test populations ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Luckily there is a fairly easy way to test that... 

With chemical anxiolytics, you can substantially damp somebody's anxiety responses to things that usually scare them.
With the right chemical anxiolytics, you can even do so without rendering them useless for other things.
Repeat the experiment; but have all participants(normal and anxiety groups) take a pill ~30 minutes before the questioning.
Half of each group will get a placebo, half will get a milligram or two of Lorazepam.
The effect of Lorazepam on the normal group will let us know if its effect on general mental acuticity at that dose is an issue.
The effect on the anxiety group will tell us what we want to know.
If being stupid makes you anxious, the drugged half of the anxiety group will be just as stupid (and a little happier) than the undrugged half.
If anxiety makes you stupid, the drugged half of the anxiety group should perform substantially better than the undrugged half(though, if the anxiety is relatively minor, the placebo effect might also be quite helpful, so you might actually have to have three groups: nothing, placebo, Lorazepam for each of the test populations).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214040</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213730</id>
	<title>Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>ls671</author>
	<datestamp>1266665340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Isn't it obvious that the fear of something will have an impact even on the simplest things where something relative to that fear is involved ?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is n't it obvious that the fear of something will have an impact even on the simplest things where something relative to that fear is involved ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Isn't it obvious that the fear of something will have an impact even on the simplest things where something relative to that fear is involved ?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31216290</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>Borg Bucolic</author>
	<datestamp>1266689520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I wonder where the belief came from that says you need a talent for something to be able to do it at all. It is like this:
<p>
   I don't do fishing. I don't have a talent for it. I tried it once because someone made me. I just sat there and waited and waited and I didn't catch a fish. I just don't understand fish. Besides, I don't even like fish. I am a beef person living in a vast prairie, I won't ever need to fish in future. Why should I learn to do it? If I had to fish for any reason, I'd would just hire someone to do it. Someone like a fish-geek. I never understood those people. They are not very social, always alone, by themselves in a boat. I don't even understand what they are saying. They are always talking bait, lures, and the "one that got away," whatever that is.
</p><p>
   Now, replace fish with: tying shoes, riding a bicycle, reading, math, thinking anything. Math is not something you need any talent for, no more having a talent for parenthood. And if your for real, everybody sucks at that from the start. It ain't stopped people from having babies. Saying you suck at something is an excuse to avoid doing it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I wonder where the belief came from that says you need a talent for something to be able to do it at all .
It is like this : I do n't do fishing .
I do n't have a talent for it .
I tried it once because someone made me .
I just sat there and waited and waited and I did n't catch a fish .
I just do n't understand fish .
Besides , I do n't even like fish .
I am a beef person living in a vast prairie , I wo n't ever need to fish in future .
Why should I learn to do it ?
If I had to fish for any reason , I 'd would just hire someone to do it .
Someone like a fish-geek .
I never understood those people .
They are not very social , always alone , by themselves in a boat .
I do n't even understand what they are saying .
They are always talking bait , lures , and the " one that got away , " whatever that is .
Now , replace fish with : tying shoes , riding a bicycle , reading , math , thinking anything .
Math is not something you need any talent for , no more having a talent for parenthood .
And if your for real , everybody sucks at that from the start .
It ai n't stopped people from having babies .
Saying you suck at something is an excuse to avoid doing it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wonder where the belief came from that says you need a talent for something to be able to do it at all.
It is like this:

   I don't do fishing.
I don't have a talent for it.
I tried it once because someone made me.
I just sat there and waited and waited and I didn't catch a fish.
I just don't understand fish.
Besides, I don't even like fish.
I am a beef person living in a vast prairie, I won't ever need to fish in future.
Why should I learn to do it?
If I had to fish for any reason, I'd would just hire someone to do it.
Someone like a fish-geek.
I never understood those people.
They are not very social, always alone, by themselves in a boat.
I don't even understand what they are saying.
They are always talking bait, lures, and the "one that got away," whatever that is.
Now, replace fish with: tying shoes, riding a bicycle, reading, math, thinking anything.
Math is not something you need any talent for, no more having a talent for parenthood.
And if your for real, everybody sucks at that from the start.
It ain't stopped people from having babies.
Saying you suck at something is an excuse to avoid doing it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214040</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214074</id>
	<title>Just Leave out the Numbers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266668580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have NEVER been able to do arithmetic well, but did ok at most types of math as long as there were no numbers!   Of course I never went much beyond ordinary differential equations.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have NEVER been able to do arithmetic well , but did ok at most types of math as long as there were no numbers !
Of course I never went much beyond ordinary differential equations .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have NEVER been able to do arithmetic well, but did ok at most types of math as long as there were no numbers!
Of course I never went much beyond ordinary differential equations.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214268</id>
	<title>Re:Oh God....</title>
	<author>ClosedSource</author>
	<datestamp>1266670200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Perhaps that's why people hated playing D&amp;D with me - took to long to calculate things. On the other hand, it could be that they figured out that I was only there because my wife insisted.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perhaps that 's why people hated playing D&amp;D with me - took to long to calculate things .
On the other hand , it could be that they figured out that I was only there because my wife insisted .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perhaps that's why people hated playing D&amp;D with me - took to long to calculate things.
On the other hand, it could be that they figured out that I was only there because my wife insisted.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213864</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31215246</id>
	<title>Re:How math is taught</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266678360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Given the rapid pace of many math classes, and the insufficient time controls allowed for many exams, it's not just an issue of understand the concept but being able to solve the problem fast enough to complete the rest of the exam.</p><p>I'm glad I quit out of math based classes--nothing on the job I do now requires any calculation beyond high school algebra, and if I can't do the resultant arithmetic in my head there is always a calculator in easy access.</p><p>That means I don't need calculus, I don't need physics, I don't need linear algebra in four or more dimensions to get the work done. I can learn how to think well enough without dealing with abstract concepts from what is essentially made-up math from a basic concept, thank you very much. That's what puzzles are for, that's what thinking games such as chess and Go are for.</p><p>Math anxiety doesn't exist for me anymore because I just gave a big fuck you to advanced mathematics. The less math I have in my life and in my work, I grow happier each and every day.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Given the rapid pace of many math classes , and the insufficient time controls allowed for many exams , it 's not just an issue of understand the concept but being able to solve the problem fast enough to complete the rest of the exam.I 'm glad I quit out of math based classes--nothing on the job I do now requires any calculation beyond high school algebra , and if I ca n't do the resultant arithmetic in my head there is always a calculator in easy access.That means I do n't need calculus , I do n't need physics , I do n't need linear algebra in four or more dimensions to get the work done .
I can learn how to think well enough without dealing with abstract concepts from what is essentially made-up math from a basic concept , thank you very much .
That 's what puzzles are for , that 's what thinking games such as chess and Go are for.Math anxiety does n't exist for me anymore because I just gave a big fuck you to advanced mathematics .
The less math I have in my life and in my work , I grow happier each and every day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Given the rapid pace of many math classes, and the insufficient time controls allowed for many exams, it's not just an issue of understand the concept but being able to solve the problem fast enough to complete the rest of the exam.I'm glad I quit out of math based classes--nothing on the job I do now requires any calculation beyond high school algebra, and if I can't do the resultant arithmetic in my head there is always a calculator in easy access.That means I don't need calculus, I don't need physics, I don't need linear algebra in four or more dimensions to get the work done.
I can learn how to think well enough without dealing with abstract concepts from what is essentially made-up math from a basic concept, thank you very much.
That's what puzzles are for, that's what thinking games such as chess and Go are for.Math anxiety doesn't exist for me anymore because I just gave a big fuck you to advanced mathematics.
The less math I have in my life and in my work, I grow happier each and every day.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213920</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214486</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>maxume</author>
	<datestamp>1266671760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I wanna see how they reverse Venus. Must be an awful big rocket.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I wan na see how they reverse Venus .
Must be an awful big rocket .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wanna see how they reverse Venus.
Must be an awful big rocket.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213830</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214678</id>
	<title>Re:How math is taught</title>
	<author>maxume</author>
	<datestamp>1266673260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The skill sets of the audience members are likely to vary wildly. The ones that don't know what the first 5 minutes of the class are about get to waste an hour.</p><p>Still, most math education is done in a presentational style.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The skill sets of the audience members are likely to vary wildly .
The ones that do n't know what the first 5 minutes of the class are about get to waste an hour.Still , most math education is done in a presentational style .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The skill sets of the audience members are likely to vary wildly.
The ones that don't know what the first 5 minutes of the class are about get to waste an hour.Still, most math education is done in a presentational style.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213920</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31217612</id>
	<title>Which all makes me think of stupiditis</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266757920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maths anxiety, dyslexia etc are well known components of the broader syndrome known to us professionals as stupiditis. More than 50\% of the population are affected by this malady, the most obvious symptom being gullibility of the sufferer when presented with plausible but nonsense explanations for their own lack of ability.</p><p>The symptoms can be kept under control by paying me to help them. We find that when a sufferer is provided with the services of a facilitator, special computer software and extended time to complete exams and so on, their scores increase, thus vindicating our techniques and clinical diagnosis.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maths anxiety , dyslexia etc are well known components of the broader syndrome known to us professionals as stupiditis .
More than 50 \ % of the population are affected by this malady , the most obvious symptom being gullibility of the sufferer when presented with plausible but nonsense explanations for their own lack of ability.The symptoms can be kept under control by paying me to help them .
We find that when a sufferer is provided with the services of a facilitator , special computer software and extended time to complete exams and so on , their scores increase , thus vindicating our techniques and clinical diagnosis .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maths anxiety, dyslexia etc are well known components of the broader syndrome known to us professionals as stupiditis.
More than 50\% of the population are affected by this malady, the most obvious symptom being gullibility of the sufferer when presented with plausible but nonsense explanations for their own lack of ability.The symptoms can be kept under control by paying me to help them.
We find that when a sufferer is provided with the services of a facilitator, special computer software and extended time to complete exams and so on, their scores increase, thus vindicating our techniques and clinical diagnosis.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214476</id>
	<title>Re:Well...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266671640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A couple weeks ago I was taking a class in first aid. One of the things we had to do was count the number of respirations / heartbeats in 15 seconds to get a count of how many per minute, compare to normal, and then infer what the state of health of the "casualty" was. As we were doing this on dummies, we would have to count out loud (one one thousand two one thousand etc) and then look at the instructor and ask what we counted.</p><p>This was part of a larger simulation, so it wasn't until a while later that one of the instructors asked me what happened to ten. Me: "I thought I was missing something..." The very act of having to add "one thousand" after each number screwed me up and I managed to omit ten.</p><p>In reality, this wouldn't have been a problem because I wouldn't have been trying to yell out numbers above a bunch of noise; I would have been looking at my watch.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A couple weeks ago I was taking a class in first aid .
One of the things we had to do was count the number of respirations / heartbeats in 15 seconds to get a count of how many per minute , compare to normal , and then infer what the state of health of the " casualty " was .
As we were doing this on dummies , we would have to count out loud ( one one thousand two one thousand etc ) and then look at the instructor and ask what we counted.This was part of a larger simulation , so it was n't until a while later that one of the instructors asked me what happened to ten .
Me : " I thought I was missing something... " The very act of having to add " one thousand " after each number screwed me up and I managed to omit ten.In reality , this would n't have been a problem because I would n't have been trying to yell out numbers above a bunch of noise ; I would have been looking at my watch .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A couple weeks ago I was taking a class in first aid.
One of the things we had to do was count the number of respirations / heartbeats in 15 seconds to get a count of how many per minute, compare to normal, and then infer what the state of health of the "casualty" was.
As we were doing this on dummies, we would have to count out loud (one one thousand two one thousand etc) and then look at the instructor and ask what we counted.This was part of a larger simulation, so it wasn't until a while later that one of the instructors asked me what happened to ten.
Me: "I thought I was missing something..." The very act of having to add "one thousand" after each number screwed me up and I managed to omit ten.In reality, this wouldn't have been a problem because I wouldn't have been trying to yell out numbers above a bunch of noise; I would have been looking at my watch.
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31236872</id>
	<title>Math Disability?</title>
	<author>Raquiellet</author>
	<datestamp>1266836460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have seriously sucked at math my whole life.  In grade school I was put in the "special" math class.  In high school I flunked Algebra.  In community college I barely passed Pre-algebra and despite being highly motivated and studying really hard failed Algebra 1.  In retrospect it doesn't make sense that I should be so dumb in this are and so very smart in some others.  I know that I get incredibly anxious even thinking about math.  Perhaps I need to conquer that anxiety so I can at least get through the basic math requirement for a BA!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have seriously sucked at math my whole life .
In grade school I was put in the " special " math class .
In high school I flunked Algebra .
In community college I barely passed Pre-algebra and despite being highly motivated and studying really hard failed Algebra 1 .
In retrospect it does n't make sense that I should be so dumb in this are and so very smart in some others .
I know that I get incredibly anxious even thinking about math .
Perhaps I need to conquer that anxiety so I can at least get through the basic math requirement for a BA !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have seriously sucked at math my whole life.
In grade school I was put in the "special" math class.
In high school I flunked Algebra.
In community college I barely passed Pre-algebra and despite being highly motivated and studying really hard failed Algebra 1.
In retrospect it doesn't make sense that I should be so dumb in this are and so very smart in some others.
I know that I get incredibly anxious even thinking about math.
Perhaps I need to conquer that anxiety so I can at least get through the basic math requirement for a BA!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31217046</id>
	<title>Re:Causation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266745260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You could be right. I know I often freeze and struggle with basic math. I get anxious about getting it wrong, and end up not being able to see the answer. However, this most likely came from when I struggled so much as a kid to come up with the answer.</p><p>However, at university I'm amongst the top in my classes on statistics and similar. I am fine, given I don't need to do the basic calculations.</p><p>This could mean that either my brain isn't wired to do basic arithmetic well, or that anxiety and such, inhibits my ability to do basic arithmetic.</p><p>Either way, it's a bit late for me, but hopefully people looking into these problems, from either angle will find good solutions for children in the future.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You could be right .
I know I often freeze and struggle with basic math .
I get anxious about getting it wrong , and end up not being able to see the answer .
However , this most likely came from when I struggled so much as a kid to come up with the answer.However , at university I 'm amongst the top in my classes on statistics and similar .
I am fine , given I do n't need to do the basic calculations.This could mean that either my brain is n't wired to do basic arithmetic well , or that anxiety and such , inhibits my ability to do basic arithmetic.Either way , it 's a bit late for me , but hopefully people looking into these problems , from either angle will find good solutions for children in the future .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You could be right.
I know I often freeze and struggle with basic math.
I get anxious about getting it wrong, and end up not being able to see the answer.
However, this most likely came from when I struggled so much as a kid to come up with the answer.However, at university I'm amongst the top in my classes on statistics and similar.
I am fine, given I don't need to do the basic calculations.This could mean that either my brain isn't wired to do basic arithmetic well, or that anxiety and such, inhibits my ability to do basic arithmetic.Either way, it's a bit late for me, but hopefully people looking into these problems, from either angle will find good solutions for children in the future.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214106</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31215522</id>
	<title>Re:Meh</title>
	<author>GammaKitsune</author>
	<datestamp>1266681420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nothing helps you get over an anxiety problem like people telling you you're just lazy, let me tell you. You're just not working hard enough, stupid! Only an hour or two (or three) on your math homework? And you still haven't made any progress? You'll sit there all night until you miraculously figure it all out, dummy!</p><p>And every time you look down at that sheet you break into a cold sweat. You get a head full of fog, and every stab at every problem is like groping around blindly. You desperately flip through your notes or pour over the text book, both of which are like trying to read Cyrillic. And all the while, everyone else in the class blazes through the material, leaving you far behind. It's because you're not trying hard enough. Work harder, moron.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nothing helps you get over an anxiety problem like people telling you you 're just lazy , let me tell you .
You 're just not working hard enough , stupid !
Only an hour or two ( or three ) on your math homework ?
And you still have n't made any progress ?
You 'll sit there all night until you miraculously figure it all out , dummy ! And every time you look down at that sheet you break into a cold sweat .
You get a head full of fog , and every stab at every problem is like groping around blindly .
You desperately flip through your notes or pour over the text book , both of which are like trying to read Cyrillic .
And all the while , everyone else in the class blazes through the material , leaving you far behind .
It 's because you 're not trying hard enough .
Work harder , moron .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nothing helps you get over an anxiety problem like people telling you you're just lazy, let me tell you.
You're just not working hard enough, stupid!
Only an hour or two (or three) on your math homework?
And you still haven't made any progress?
You'll sit there all night until you miraculously figure it all out, dummy!And every time you look down at that sheet you break into a cold sweat.
You get a head full of fog, and every stab at every problem is like groping around blindly.
You desperately flip through your notes or pour over the text book, both of which are like trying to read Cyrillic.
And all the while, everyone else in the class blazes through the material, leaving you far behind.
It's because you're not trying hard enough.
Work harder, moron.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213844</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214848</id>
	<title>Re:How math is taught</title>
	<author>phantomfive</author>
	<datestamp>1266675120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>One difference I've noticed is people who are good at math tend to look at algebra in terms of pictures, or abstract chunks, whereas people who are not just get confused.<br> <br>
For example, a person good at math will see 3x+7y^2 +5 = 3x +7y^2 + c to be as simple as  A+5 = A +c.  They can group the complex group into a single piece in their mind.  Or they can easily 'flip the chalkboard' around in the mind and realize that 7y = x is the same as x = 7y.  If there is one thing that distinguishes a person who is good at math from a person who is not, I would say this is it.<br> <br>
Although in elementary school, the difference between someone who is good and someone who is bad tends to be whether they have someone at home helping them memorize their arithmetic tables.</htmltext>
<tokenext>One difference I 've noticed is people who are good at math tend to look at algebra in terms of pictures , or abstract chunks , whereas people who are not just get confused .
For example , a person good at math will see 3x + 7y ^ 2 + 5 = 3x + 7y ^ 2 + c to be as simple as A + 5 = A + c .
They can group the complex group into a single piece in their mind .
Or they can easily 'flip the chalkboard ' around in the mind and realize that 7y = x is the same as x = 7y .
If there is one thing that distinguishes a person who is good at math from a person who is not , I would say this is it .
Although in elementary school , the difference between someone who is good and someone who is bad tends to be whether they have someone at home helping them memorize their arithmetic tables .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One difference I've noticed is people who are good at math tend to look at algebra in terms of pictures, or abstract chunks, whereas people who are not just get confused.
For example, a person good at math will see 3x+7y^2 +5 = 3x +7y^2 + c to be as simple as  A+5 = A +c.
They can group the complex group into a single piece in their mind.
Or they can easily 'flip the chalkboard' around in the mind and realize that 7y = x is the same as x = 7y.
If there is one thing that distinguishes a person who is good at math from a person who is not, I would say this is it.
Although in elementary school, the difference between someone who is good and someone who is bad tends to be whether they have someone at home helping them memorize their arithmetic tables.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213920</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213788</id>
	<title>In a second study by Canadian psychologists</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266665880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It was found study participants reported much more anxiety during sexual performance when Canadian psychologists were also in the room monitoring.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It was found study participants reported much more anxiety during sexual performance when Canadian psychologists were also in the room monitoring .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It was found study participants reported much more anxiety during sexual performance when Canadian psychologists were also in the room monitoring.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31215572</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266681960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Everyone always says that the earth revolves around the sun, but that's just as true as the sun revolving around the earth. Both are equally valid in the eyes of Science. The only thing that makes a heliocentric model more widely used is its usefulness and relative mathematical simplicity. Universities taught the Geocentric model using epicycles long before anyone suggested a simpler model.</p><p>Especially in light of the lack of an absolute frame of reference, we must realise that it's impossible to state for certain which is true. We only know that one model requires a simpler mathematical explanation than the other, and that that's why it was considered scientifically acceptable.</p><p>Both models will fit the data equally well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Everyone always says that the earth revolves around the sun , but that 's just as true as the sun revolving around the earth .
Both are equally valid in the eyes of Science .
The only thing that makes a heliocentric model more widely used is its usefulness and relative mathematical simplicity .
Universities taught the Geocentric model using epicycles long before anyone suggested a simpler model.Especially in light of the lack of an absolute frame of reference , we must realise that it 's impossible to state for certain which is true .
We only know that one model requires a simpler mathematical explanation than the other , and that that 's why it was considered scientifically acceptable.Both models will fit the data equally well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Everyone always says that the earth revolves around the sun, but that's just as true as the sun revolving around the earth.
Both are equally valid in the eyes of Science.
The only thing that makes a heliocentric model more widely used is its usefulness and relative mathematical simplicity.
Universities taught the Geocentric model using epicycles long before anyone suggested a simpler model.Especially in light of the lack of an absolute frame of reference, we must realise that it's impossible to state for certain which is true.
We only know that one model requires a simpler mathematical explanation than the other, and that that's why it was considered scientifically acceptable.Both models will fit the data equally well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213830</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31215548</id>
	<title>My Story</title>
	<author>carp3\_noct3m</author>
	<datestamp>1266681780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I happen to be one of these people, so I have some knowledge about the subject. Although I cannot speak for everyone, in my cause there was a very strong correlation between my fear of math (or my lack of math ability) and my performance. At a younger age (elementary school) I simply found math to be non-practical, and therefore ignored it(which is to say I did the bare minimum to get by in class). Once I did this however, by the time I got to highschool, I had severely fallen behind in math all around. My first and only class I failed was algebra, which I retook and finally passed with a C. To me, it was such an abstract thing that it seemed pointless in its difficulty. I should qualify that in all other subjects I excelled, including things like networking (boolean functions and binary, that I saw had practical benifit, I could do in my head no problem) Now, after serving in the military, and going back to  college, it has been over 7 years since I had a college level math course, and still struggle, but I have found something that helps me tremendously. Finding practical applications that require whatever level of math I'm studying. My main tool for this at the moment, however bizarre this may sound, is building things in Garry's Mod, via the Wire Mod tool. It requires some very complicated mathmatical procedures to do something such as build a 10 cyclinder engine wiring to fire off in the correct sequence at high speed. In short, I believe it is a matter of learning types, I am a visual/kinetic learner, and need some substantial problem to wrap my head around and things have slowly (not without hard work) falling into place for me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one in a similar situation.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I happen to be one of these people , so I have some knowledge about the subject .
Although I can not speak for everyone , in my cause there was a very strong correlation between my fear of math ( or my lack of math ability ) and my performance .
At a younger age ( elementary school ) I simply found math to be non-practical , and therefore ignored it ( which is to say I did the bare minimum to get by in class ) .
Once I did this however , by the time I got to highschool , I had severely fallen behind in math all around .
My first and only class I failed was algebra , which I retook and finally passed with a C. To me , it was such an abstract thing that it seemed pointless in its difficulty .
I should qualify that in all other subjects I excelled , including things like networking ( boolean functions and binary , that I saw had practical benifit , I could do in my head no problem ) Now , after serving in the military , and going back to college , it has been over 7 years since I had a college level math course , and still struggle , but I have found something that helps me tremendously .
Finding practical applications that require whatever level of math I 'm studying .
My main tool for this at the moment , however bizarre this may sound , is building things in Garry 's Mod , via the Wire Mod tool .
It requires some very complicated mathmatical procedures to do something such as build a 10 cyclinder engine wiring to fire off in the correct sequence at high speed .
In short , I believe it is a matter of learning types , I am a visual/kinetic learner , and need some substantial problem to wrap my head around and things have slowly ( not without hard work ) falling into place for me , and I 'm sure I 'm not the only one in a similar situation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I happen to be one of these people, so I have some knowledge about the subject.
Although I cannot speak for everyone, in my cause there was a very strong correlation between my fear of math (or my lack of math ability) and my performance.
At a younger age (elementary school) I simply found math to be non-practical, and therefore ignored it(which is to say I did the bare minimum to get by in class).
Once I did this however, by the time I got to highschool, I had severely fallen behind in math all around.
My first and only class I failed was algebra, which I retook and finally passed with a C. To me, it was such an abstract thing that it seemed pointless in its difficulty.
I should qualify that in all other subjects I excelled, including things like networking (boolean functions and binary, that I saw had practical benifit, I could do in my head no problem) Now, after serving in the military, and going back to  college, it has been over 7 years since I had a college level math course, and still struggle, but I have found something that helps me tremendously.
Finding practical applications that require whatever level of math I'm studying.
My main tool for this at the moment, however bizarre this may sound, is building things in Garry's Mod, via the Wire Mod tool.
It requires some very complicated mathmatical procedures to do something such as build a 10 cyclinder engine wiring to fire off in the correct sequence at high speed.
In short, I believe it is a matter of learning types, I am a visual/kinetic learner, and need some substantial problem to wrap my head around and things have slowly (not without hard work) falling into place for me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one in a similar situation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31240948</id>
	<title>Programming and fear of math</title>
	<author>cavebison</author>
	<datestamp>1266862500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a successful programmer, but have always had math anxiety. Don't ask me to split the restaurant bill or work out the change at the supermarket. But I've always been great with algebra - symbols, equations, love em. Numbers, can't do em. Maybe it's money anxiety.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>I think it stems back to school - having to stand up in class and answer math questions. I found it very awkward and stressful doing that, and the feeling returns when I'm put on the spot to answer a math question. I think everyone has areas of confidence and areas of self-doubt which affects their abilities.</p><p>Perhaps it comes down to that trite saying - believe in yourself and you will succeed! In this case, it probably applies. The fact I don't believe I'll be right makes me fail. Yoda would not be pleased.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a successful programmer , but have always had math anxiety .
Do n't ask me to split the restaurant bill or work out the change at the supermarket .
But I 've always been great with algebra - symbols , equations , love em .
Numbers , ca n't do em .
Maybe it 's money anxiety .
: ) I think it stems back to school - having to stand up in class and answer math questions .
I found it very awkward and stressful doing that , and the feeling returns when I 'm put on the spot to answer a math question .
I think everyone has areas of confidence and areas of self-doubt which affects their abilities.Perhaps it comes down to that trite saying - believe in yourself and you will succeed !
In this case , it probably applies .
The fact I do n't believe I 'll be right makes me fail .
Yoda would not be pleased .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a successful programmer, but have always had math anxiety.
Don't ask me to split the restaurant bill or work out the change at the supermarket.
But I've always been great with algebra - symbols, equations, love em.
Numbers, can't do em.
Maybe it's money anxiety.
:)I think it stems back to school - having to stand up in class and answer math questions.
I found it very awkward and stressful doing that, and the feeling returns when I'm put on the spot to answer a math question.
I think everyone has areas of confidence and areas of self-doubt which affects their abilities.Perhaps it comes down to that trite saying - believe in yourself and you will succeed!
In this case, it probably applies.
The fact I don't believe I'll be right makes me fail.
Yoda would not be pleased.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214096</id>
	<title>We're learning more and more about math anxiety</title>
	<author>JoshuaZ</author>
	<datestamp>1266668880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Math anxiety is turning out to be a much more complicated phenomena than one might thing. For example, there also was a very interesting study by Sian Beilock at the University of Chichago. Beilock showed that young girls who were exposed to female elementary school teachers were much more likely to develop math anxiety themselves than those not exposed to such teachers. See <a href="http://hpl.uchicago.edu/Publications/PNAS\_2010.pdf" title="uchicago.edu">http://hpl.uchicago.edu/Publications/PNAS\_2010.pdf</a> [uchicago.edu]. The exact consequences of Beilock's study are not clear. But combined with the study above, it seems to suggest that we need to do a better job with elementary school teachers. We need to either get rid of the school teachers with math anxiety or get rid of their math anxiety problems. Possibly some combination of both approaches may be in order: Improve the mathematical confidence of elementary school teachers whom we can effect and get rid of those we can't.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Math anxiety is turning out to be a much more complicated phenomena than one might thing .
For example , there also was a very interesting study by Sian Beilock at the University of Chichago .
Beilock showed that young girls who were exposed to female elementary school teachers were much more likely to develop math anxiety themselves than those not exposed to such teachers .
See http : //hpl.uchicago.edu/Publications/PNAS \ _2010.pdf [ uchicago.edu ] .
The exact consequences of Beilock 's study are not clear .
But combined with the study above , it seems to suggest that we need to do a better job with elementary school teachers .
We need to either get rid of the school teachers with math anxiety or get rid of their math anxiety problems .
Possibly some combination of both approaches may be in order : Improve the mathematical confidence of elementary school teachers whom we can effect and get rid of those we ca n't .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Math anxiety is turning out to be a much more complicated phenomena than one might thing.
For example, there also was a very interesting study by Sian Beilock at the University of Chichago.
Beilock showed that young girls who were exposed to female elementary school teachers were much more likely to develop math anxiety themselves than those not exposed to such teachers.
See http://hpl.uchicago.edu/Publications/PNAS\_2010.pdf [uchicago.edu].
The exact consequences of Beilock's study are not clear.
But combined with the study above, it seems to suggest that we need to do a better job with elementary school teachers.
We need to either get rid of the school teachers with math anxiety or get rid of their math anxiety problems.
Possibly some combination of both approaches may be in order: Improve the mathematical confidence of elementary school teachers whom we can effect and get rid of those we can't.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213864</id>
	<title>Re:Oh God....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266666540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just an anecdote but oddly enough most of the people I know that have gone on to high level math (&gt;&gt;Calc 3) tend not to be terribly good at doing basic math in their heads.  It could be just my imagination or it could be that they rely much more on calculators/computers to do most of the actual calculations for them but it would be interesting to see a study on it.  Perhaps study how anxiety affects basic math skills among those who are very advanced in mathematics.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just an anecdote but oddly enough most of the people I know that have gone on to high level math ( &gt; &gt; Calc 3 ) tend not to be terribly good at doing basic math in their heads .
It could be just my imagination or it could be that they rely much more on calculators/computers to do most of the actual calculations for them but it would be interesting to see a study on it .
Perhaps study how anxiety affects basic math skills among those who are very advanced in mathematics .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just an anecdote but oddly enough most of the people I know that have gone on to high level math (&gt;&gt;Calc 3) tend not to be terribly good at doing basic math in their heads.
It could be just my imagination or it could be that they rely much more on calculators/computers to do most of the actual calculations for them but it would be interesting to see a study on it.
Perhaps study how anxiety affects basic math skills among those who are very advanced in mathematics.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213792</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31216338</id>
	<title>Re:We're learning more and more about math anxiety</title>
	<author>Borg Bucolic</author>
	<datestamp>1266689940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Taking this from personal experience: The reason "elementary" teachers can't teach math effectively is because they don't know it themselves. I have teacher candidates that barely pass a basic skills test in math. You know, adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing. That sort of stuff.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Taking this from personal experience : The reason " elementary " teachers ca n't teach math effectively is because they do n't know it themselves .
I have teacher candidates that barely pass a basic skills test in math .
You know , adding , subtracting , multiplying , and dividing .
That sort of stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Taking this from personal experience: The reason "elementary" teachers can't teach math effectively is because they don't know it themselves.
I have teacher candidates that barely pass a basic skills test in math.
You know, adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing.
That sort of stuff.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214096</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31222404</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266749940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>that is actually discussed at length in the article. Present theories of anxiety suggest that tasks as simple as basic counting should not be affected by anxiety (due to how little processing resources they demand). As such, the authors present the theory that perhaps a numerical processing deficit proceeds (and perhaps causes) the anxiety. As of current, the literature believes that anxiety causes the deficit and there are certainly studies that are consistent with that claim.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>that is actually discussed at length in the article .
Present theories of anxiety suggest that tasks as simple as basic counting should not be affected by anxiety ( due to how little processing resources they demand ) .
As such , the authors present the theory that perhaps a numerical processing deficit proceeds ( and perhaps causes ) the anxiety .
As of current , the literature believes that anxiety causes the deficit and there are certainly studies that are consistent with that claim .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>that is actually discussed at length in the article.
Present theories of anxiety suggest that tasks as simple as basic counting should not be affected by anxiety (due to how little processing resources they demand).
As such, the authors present the theory that perhaps a numerical processing deficit proceeds (and perhaps causes) the anxiety.
As of current, the literature believes that anxiety causes the deficit and there are certainly studies that are consistent with that claim.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214040</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31216766</id>
	<title>Re:How math is taught</title>
	<author>chthonicdaemon</author>
	<datestamp>1266783060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As an educator myself, I have grappled with this problem.  Shared vernacular is hard to find.  Just look at your own example: you used "for each" assuming that someone would understand what that meant.  I have spent many hours trying to explain the concept of a for loop to very smart Chemical Engineering students, some never get it.  I suppose we could conclude I was a bad teacher unless we consider that no course that I have heard of has 100\% pass rate.  There is a lot of active cognitive research into the best way to teach things, but I firmly believe that application of math is not enough -- it poses the danger of letting people think that the math is constrained by the application.  I hear what you're saying about adapting to the incoming skillset, and you'd be surprised: most educators try pretty hard to do that.  But perhaps the lack of consensus as to the end goal is part of what makes it hard to find a single good method of teaching that works for everyone in your class.  If your goal is to find students that are gifted in math, you may decide to pose hard, puzzling questions.  If your goal is for everyone to have some rudimentary knowledge, you may teach more simple rote work.  So perhaps your experience of people trying to make it hard was a manefestation of a math department with a strong postgraduate group that benefits from a tough selection.  It's hard to believe people teaching a subject have made no effort to try and achieve their goals.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As an educator myself , I have grappled with this problem .
Shared vernacular is hard to find .
Just look at your own example : you used " for each " assuming that someone would understand what that meant .
I have spent many hours trying to explain the concept of a for loop to very smart Chemical Engineering students , some never get it .
I suppose we could conclude I was a bad teacher unless we consider that no course that I have heard of has 100 \ % pass rate .
There is a lot of active cognitive research into the best way to teach things , but I firmly believe that application of math is not enough -- it poses the danger of letting people think that the math is constrained by the application .
I hear what you 're saying about adapting to the incoming skillset , and you 'd be surprised : most educators try pretty hard to do that .
But perhaps the lack of consensus as to the end goal is part of what makes it hard to find a single good method of teaching that works for everyone in your class .
If your goal is to find students that are gifted in math , you may decide to pose hard , puzzling questions .
If your goal is for everyone to have some rudimentary knowledge , you may teach more simple rote work .
So perhaps your experience of people trying to make it hard was a manefestation of a math department with a strong postgraduate group that benefits from a tough selection .
It 's hard to believe people teaching a subject have made no effort to try and achieve their goals .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As an educator myself, I have grappled with this problem.
Shared vernacular is hard to find.
Just look at your own example: you used "for each" assuming that someone would understand what that meant.
I have spent many hours trying to explain the concept of a for loop to very smart Chemical Engineering students, some never get it.
I suppose we could conclude I was a bad teacher unless we consider that no course that I have heard of has 100\% pass rate.
There is a lot of active cognitive research into the best way to teach things, but I firmly believe that application of math is not enough -- it poses the danger of letting people think that the math is constrained by the application.
I hear what you're saying about adapting to the incoming skillset, and you'd be surprised: most educators try pretty hard to do that.
But perhaps the lack of consensus as to the end goal is part of what makes it hard to find a single good method of teaching that works for everyone in your class.
If your goal is to find students that are gifted in math, you may decide to pose hard, puzzling questions.
If your goal is for everyone to have some rudimentary knowledge, you may teach more simple rote work.
So perhaps your experience of people trying to make it hard was a manefestation of a math department with a strong postgraduate group that benefits from a tough selection.
It's hard to believe people teaching a subject have made no effort to try and achieve their goals.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213920</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31219376</id>
	<title>Re:Oh God....</title>
	<author>fishexe</author>
	<datestamp>1266775800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Oh god, how did I make it this far? Was this all some sort of ruse to make me feel good about myself? Has my whole life so far been a lie? How can I major in CS if I can't even count!</p></div><p>Calm down!  There's a job waiting for you at Microsoft when you graduate!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh god , how did I make it this far ?
Was this all some sort of ruse to make me feel good about myself ?
Has my whole life so far been a lie ?
How can I major in CS if I ca n't even count ! Calm down !
There 's a job waiting for you at Microsoft when you graduate !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh god, how did I make it this far?
Was this all some sort of ruse to make me feel good about myself?
Has my whole life so far been a lie?
How can I major in CS if I can't even count!Calm down!
There's a job waiting for you at Microsoft when you graduate!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213792</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31215528</id>
	<title>Re:Causation</title>
	<author>aukset</author>
	<datestamp>1266681540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are correct to state that this study does not prove causation, but you have to also take into consideration that this study does not exist in isolation. There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that anxiety about a task leads to a decreased aptitude at performing that task. Causation can be implied, but it can also be the case that there is causation in both directions: feedback that an individual is a poor performer at math reinforces the anxiety, which in turn causes the poor performance, resulting in additional feedback that the individual is a poor performer at math, increasing anxiety further.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are correct to state that this study does not prove causation , but you have to also take into consideration that this study does not exist in isolation .
There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that anxiety about a task leads to a decreased aptitude at performing that task .
Causation can be implied , but it can also be the case that there is causation in both directions : feedback that an individual is a poor performer at math reinforces the anxiety , which in turn causes the poor performance , resulting in additional feedback that the individual is a poor performer at math , increasing anxiety further .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are correct to state that this study does not prove causation, but you have to also take into consideration that this study does not exist in isolation.
There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that anxiety about a task leads to a decreased aptitude at performing that task.
Causation can be implied, but it can also be the case that there is causation in both directions: feedback that an individual is a poor performer at math reinforces the anxiety, which in turn causes the poor performance, resulting in additional feedback that the individual is a poor performer at math, increasing anxiety further.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214106</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214116</id>
	<title>Re:How math is taught</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266669180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I can't quite understand what you're trying to get across, can you make a car analogy please?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't quite understand what you 're trying to get across , can you make a car analogy please ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't quite understand what you're trying to get across, can you make a car analogy please?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213920</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213770</id>
	<title>Well...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266665640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sort of, this is a pretty damn simple task. Would you really have guessed that somebody who was math anxious would have trouble counting to 9?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sort of , this is a pretty damn simple task .
Would you really have guessed that somebody who was math anxious would have trouble counting to 9 ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sort of, this is a pretty damn simple task.
Would you really have guessed that somebody who was math anxious would have trouble counting to 9?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213730</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214106</id>
	<title>Causation</title>
	<author>dcollins</author>
	<datestamp>1266669060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is the first time on Slashdot that I'll that say there's a legitimate call for "correlation is not causation". The claim in the article is that "anxiety about mathematics can adversely affect tasks as simple as basic counting". But the reported data is simply that "math anxious individuals, relative to their non-math anxious peers, demonstrated a deficit in the counting range (five to nine)..."</p><p>I don't see any support for the hypothesis that math anxiety "affects" or "impacts" (per the article) basic math tasks. I think an equally-well supported hypothesis is that people who suck at counting to 5 wind up developing math anxiety.</p><p>To test their hypothesis, they need to take equally-skilled people and somehow make an experimental group anxious about the upcoming task (or something). I don't see that happening here. Frankly, I'm highly skeptical of this whole "math anxiety" postulate. I think we've got to accept the fact that for some people, even basic arithmetic is monumentally difficult, and not blame it on their "feelings" towards the task.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is the first time on Slashdot that I 'll that say there 's a legitimate call for " correlation is not causation " .
The claim in the article is that " anxiety about mathematics can adversely affect tasks as simple as basic counting " .
But the reported data is simply that " math anxious individuals , relative to their non-math anxious peers , demonstrated a deficit in the counting range ( five to nine ) ... " I do n't see any support for the hypothesis that math anxiety " affects " or " impacts " ( per the article ) basic math tasks .
I think an equally-well supported hypothesis is that people who suck at counting to 5 wind up developing math anxiety.To test their hypothesis , they need to take equally-skilled people and somehow make an experimental group anxious about the upcoming task ( or something ) .
I do n't see that happening here .
Frankly , I 'm highly skeptical of this whole " math anxiety " postulate .
I think we 've got to accept the fact that for some people , even basic arithmetic is monumentally difficult , and not blame it on their " feelings " towards the task .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is the first time on Slashdot that I'll that say there's a legitimate call for "correlation is not causation".
The claim in the article is that "anxiety about mathematics can adversely affect tasks as simple as basic counting".
But the reported data is simply that "math anxious individuals, relative to their non-math anxious peers, demonstrated a deficit in the counting range (five to nine)..."I don't see any support for the hypothesis that math anxiety "affects" or "impacts" (per the article) basic math tasks.
I think an equally-well supported hypothesis is that people who suck at counting to 5 wind up developing math anxiety.To test their hypothesis, they need to take equally-skilled people and somehow make an experimental group anxious about the upcoming task (or something).
I don't see that happening here.
Frankly, I'm highly skeptical of this whole "math anxiety" postulate.
I think we've got to accept the fact that for some people, even basic arithmetic is monumentally difficult, and not blame it on their "feelings" towards the task.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31217044</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>vikstar</author>
	<datestamp>1266745200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Isn't it also obvious that if you have a floating helium balloon inside your car, when you brake the balloon will move forward inside the car, or when you accelerate the balloon will be pushed back?<br>Isn't it also obvious that if your friend has three identical boxes with one of them containing a prize, you choose one box and he opens it revealing that the prize is not inside it and he tells you that you have one last chance to choose, then it doesn't matter if you keep your current choice or switch to the last remaining box, since it is 50/50 that the prize is in either?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is n't it also obvious that if you have a floating helium balloon inside your car , when you brake the balloon will move forward inside the car , or when you accelerate the balloon will be pushed back ? Is n't it also obvious that if your friend has three identical boxes with one of them containing a prize , you choose one box and he opens it revealing that the prize is not inside it and he tells you that you have one last chance to choose , then it does n't matter if you keep your current choice or switch to the last remaining box , since it is 50/50 that the prize is in either ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Isn't it also obvious that if you have a floating helium balloon inside your car, when you brake the balloon will move forward inside the car, or when you accelerate the balloon will be pushed back?Isn't it also obvious that if your friend has three identical boxes with one of them containing a prize, you choose one box and he opens it revealing that the prize is not inside it and he tells you that you have one last chance to choose, then it doesn't matter if you keep your current choice or switch to the last remaining box, since it is 50/50 that the prize is in either?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213730</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213774</id>
	<title>Somewhere back in Germany around 1920...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266665640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A chicken farmer couldn't count the chickens before they hatched.</p><p>The rest is His Story.</p><p>HH!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A chicken farmer could n't count the chickens before they hatched.The rest is His Story.HH !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A chicken farmer couldn't count the chickens before they hatched.The rest is His Story.HH!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31222654</id>
	<title>Re:Causation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266751380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Perhaps if you read the original article you would see that the entire discussion section focuses on the issue of whether the anxiety precedes the deficit or whether the deficit precedes the anxiety. You comment clearly preceded your reading of the article.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perhaps if you read the original article you would see that the entire discussion section focuses on the issue of whether the anxiety precedes the deficit or whether the deficit precedes the anxiety .
You comment clearly preceded your reading of the article .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perhaps if you read the original article you would see that the entire discussion section focuses on the issue of whether the anxiety precedes the deficit or whether the deficit precedes the anxiety.
You comment clearly preceded your reading of the article.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214106</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213970</id>
	<title>I can't read, but I can count!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266667800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Previous studies have shown that a weakness in basic math abilities has a greater negative effect on employment opportunities than reading difficulties <b>[do]</b>.</p></div><p>Apparently this is applicable for the position of Slashdot Editor.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Previous studies have shown that a weakness in basic math abilities has a greater negative effect on employment opportunities than reading difficulties [ do ] .Apparently this is applicable for the position of Slashdot Editor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Previous studies have shown that a weakness in basic math abilities has a greater negative effect on employment opportunities than reading difficulties [do].Apparently this is applicable for the position of Slashdot Editor.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31217600</id>
	<title>I'm a high-school teacher...</title>
	<author>hyfe</author>
	<datestamp>1266757620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm a high-school teacher (16-18 year olds) and can confirm this.

When I get my students I work really hard on teaching them to relax during math tests. Mainly by going around chatting, drawing stupid stuff on the whiteboard and just generally being bored. I estimate this improves math grades by around half a point (on a scale from 1 to 6, where the entire scale is actually used).

Grades jump up by atleast 1 grade when I take over classes though. The rest I attribute to me being awsome.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a high-school teacher ( 16-18 year olds ) and can confirm this .
When I get my students I work really hard on teaching them to relax during math tests .
Mainly by going around chatting , drawing stupid stuff on the whiteboard and just generally being bored .
I estimate this improves math grades by around half a point ( on a scale from 1 to 6 , where the entire scale is actually used ) .
Grades jump up by atleast 1 grade when I take over classes though .
The rest I attribute to me being awsome .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a high-school teacher (16-18 year olds) and can confirm this.
When I get my students I work really hard on teaching them to relax during math tests.
Mainly by going around chatting, drawing stupid stuff on the whiteboard and just generally being bored.
I estimate this improves math grades by around half a point (on a scale from 1 to 6, where the entire scale is actually used).
Grades jump up by atleast 1 grade when I take over classes though.
The rest I attribute to me being awsome.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31216228</id>
	<title>Re:Oh God....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266689040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>most of the people I know that have gone on to high level math (&gt;&gt;Calc 3) tend not to be terribly good at doing basic math in their heads</p></div><p>For your statistics: "Me too!"</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>most of the people I know that have gone on to high level math ( &gt; &gt; Calc 3 ) tend not to be terribly good at doing basic math in their headsFor your statistics : " Me too !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>most of the people I know that have gone on to high level math (&gt;&gt;Calc 3) tend not to be terribly good at doing basic math in their headsFor your statistics: "Me too!
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213864</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213914</id>
	<title>Re:Oh God....</title>
	<author>Dunbal</author>
	<datestamp>1266667080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Just an anecdote but oddly enough most of the people I know that have gone on to high level math (&gt;&gt;Calc 3) tend not to be terribly good at doing basic math in their heads.</i></p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Heh, I'm just the opposite. I'm very good at mental arithmetic, and I can multiply 4 digit numbers in my head usually faster than someone who reaches for a calculator, but I absolutely suck at math - especially trig (Calculus not so much). However I chalk it up to carelessness because I understand the concepts fine but I keep dropping or changing a sign here and there when I'm working out a problem. Which is why I went into a field in the biological sciences. Pretty much all the numbers are positive! Now my most complicated "formula" is "ok the kid weighs 8kg and the dose is 40mg/kg so 320mg per day divided by 3 is (rounding and adjusting up to the next dose easiest to dispense) 120mg 3 times a day... (scribble scribble scribble) here you go, call me in 3 days".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just an anecdote but oddly enough most of the people I know that have gone on to high level math ( &gt; &gt; Calc 3 ) tend not to be terribly good at doing basic math in their heads .
      Heh , I 'm just the opposite .
I 'm very good at mental arithmetic , and I can multiply 4 digit numbers in my head usually faster than someone who reaches for a calculator , but I absolutely suck at math - especially trig ( Calculus not so much ) .
However I chalk it up to carelessness because I understand the concepts fine but I keep dropping or changing a sign here and there when I 'm working out a problem .
Which is why I went into a field in the biological sciences .
Pretty much all the numbers are positive !
Now my most complicated " formula " is " ok the kid weighs 8kg and the dose is 40mg/kg so 320mg per day divided by 3 is ( rounding and adjusting up to the next dose easiest to dispense ) 120mg 3 times a day... ( scribble scribble scribble ) here you go , call me in 3 days " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just an anecdote but oddly enough most of the people I know that have gone on to high level math (&gt;&gt;Calc 3) tend not to be terribly good at doing basic math in their heads.
      Heh, I'm just the opposite.
I'm very good at mental arithmetic, and I can multiply 4 digit numbers in my head usually faster than someone who reaches for a calculator, but I absolutely suck at math - especially trig (Calculus not so much).
However I chalk it up to carelessness because I understand the concepts fine but I keep dropping or changing a sign here and there when I'm working out a problem.
Which is why I went into a field in the biological sciences.
Pretty much all the numbers are positive!
Now my most complicated "formula" is "ok the kid weighs 8kg and the dose is 40mg/kg so 320mg per day divided by 3 is (rounding and adjusting up to the next dose easiest to dispense) 120mg 3 times a day... (scribble scribble scribble) here you go, call me in 3 days".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213864</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31226046</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>Krabbs</author>
	<datestamp>1266775200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I guess, in the future, they'll just question random people on Slashdot instead of doing actual studies.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess , in the future , they 'll just question random people on Slashdot instead of doing actual studies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess, in the future, they'll just question random people on Slashdot instead of doing actual studies.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213730</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31216878</id>
	<title>Re:Causation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266784860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think the idea behind the study is that act of counting to 9 is so simple that the hypothesis that the math-anxious group simply sucks at counting is unlikely enough to be reasonably dismissed. You can probably easily show in a more casual setting that the math-anxious people are highly able to count within single digits.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the idea behind the study is that act of counting to 9 is so simple that the hypothesis that the math-anxious group simply sucks at counting is unlikely enough to be reasonably dismissed .
You can probably easily show in a more casual setting that the math-anxious people are highly able to count within single digits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the idea behind the study is that act of counting to 9 is so simple that the hypothesis that the math-anxious group simply sucks at counting is unlikely enough to be reasonably dismissed.
You can probably easily show in a more casual setting that the math-anxious people are highly able to count within single digits.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214106</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31219302</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>fishexe</author>
	<datestamp>1266775440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Isn't it obvious that the fear of something will have an impact even on the simplest things where something relative to that fear is involved ?</p></div><p>Sure, but just taking obvious things for granted isn't science.  Testing everything, even the obvious, is how science progresses.  Remember, people once said "Isn't it obvious the sun revolves around the Earth?"</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is n't it obvious that the fear of something will have an impact even on the simplest things where something relative to that fear is involved ? Sure , but just taking obvious things for granted is n't science .
Testing everything , even the obvious , is how science progresses .
Remember , people once said " Is n't it obvious the sun revolves around the Earth ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Isn't it obvious that the fear of something will have an impact even on the simplest things where something relative to that fear is involved ?Sure, but just taking obvious things for granted isn't science.
Testing everything, even the obvious, is how science progresses.
Remember, people once said "Isn't it obvious the sun revolves around the Earth?
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213730</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31308398</id>
	<title>Re:Oh God....</title>
	<author>badkarmadayaccount</author>
	<datestamp>1267348380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Here's another datum: I have no problem with either integrals or low level number crunching, but I have the habit of making brain dead mistakes in the silliest of places.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's another datum : I have no problem with either integrals or low level number crunching , but I have the habit of making brain dead mistakes in the silliest of places .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's another datum: I have no problem with either integrals or low level number crunching, but I have the habit of making brain dead mistakes in the silliest of places.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31216228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31218108</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>TiberiusMonkey</author>
	<datestamp>1266764340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Same, but I'm even worse, my field is robotics and as a dyslexic I've fought against maths my whole life, the other day someone asked me what's 2 divided by 2, I swear it took me 2 seconds before I answered.

It's not that I couldn't do something so very very simple, I just grew up being bullied and laughed at for not being able to do these things in school and my brain will literally regress back to those days when I'm asked things on the spot.  If someone asked me 7*13 on the spot I'd likely be the same as you, in fact I know I would.

Give me a piece of paper and it all goes away.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Same , but I 'm even worse , my field is robotics and as a dyslexic I 've fought against maths my whole life , the other day someone asked me what 's 2 divided by 2 , I swear it took me 2 seconds before I answered .
It 's not that I could n't do something so very very simple , I just grew up being bullied and laughed at for not being able to do these things in school and my brain will literally regress back to those days when I 'm asked things on the spot .
If someone asked me 7 * 13 on the spot I 'd likely be the same as you , in fact I know I would .
Give me a piece of paper and it all goes away .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Same, but I'm even worse, my field is robotics and as a dyslexic I've fought against maths my whole life, the other day someone asked me what's 2 divided by 2, I swear it took me 2 seconds before I answered.
It's not that I couldn't do something so very very simple, I just grew up being bullied and laughed at for not being able to do these things in school and my brain will literally regress back to those days when I'm asked things on the spot.
If someone asked me 7*13 on the spot I'd likely be the same as you, in fact I know I would.
Give me a piece of paper and it all goes away.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214414</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214324</id>
	<title>Re:We're learning more and more about math anxiety</title>
	<author>JoshuaZ</author>
	<datestamp>1266670560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Er, missing an import phrase there. Female elementary school teachers <i> with math anxiety</i> is the relevant category of teachers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Er , missing an import phrase there .
Female elementary school teachers with math anxiety is the relevant category of teachers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Er, missing an import phrase there.
Female elementary school teachers  with math anxiety is the relevant category of teachers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214096</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31215152</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>robot256</author>
	<datestamp>1266677640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Exactly.  When science (actually Galileo) tried to confirm the "obvious" notion that heavy objects fall faster, it turned out that what was everybody thought was "obvious" was wrong.  Hence the need to confirm things that seem obvious at first glance with scientific observation and analysis.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly .
When science ( actually Galileo ) tried to confirm the " obvious " notion that heavy objects fall faster , it turned out that what was everybody thought was " obvious " was wrong .
Hence the need to confirm things that seem obvious at first glance with scientific observation and analysis .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly.
When science (actually Galileo) tried to confirm the "obvious" notion that heavy objects fall faster, it turned out that what was everybody thought was "obvious" was wrong.
Hence the need to confirm things that seem obvious at first glance with scientific observation and analysis.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213816</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31216180</id>
	<title>Re:Meh</title>
	<author>fuzzyfuzzyfungus</author>
	<datestamp>1266688500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Psychologists might like the answer to be "Therapy"; but, even if they explicitly say so, I doubt it'll make much difference.<br> <br>

Basic anti-anxiety techniques can easily be administered by people much cheaper than psychologists(generic social workers, pretty much any teacher or aide with a little training) and there is a collection of anti-anxiety drugs with fairly favorable safety profiles that can be handed out by anybody who can write a prescription(which, if the experience with things like Ritalin is any indication, will sometimes be a fancy psychiatrist; but will more often just be the family doctor). Drilling math problems, especially low-level arithmetic, is a task practically tailor-made for computers(and software for the purpose has already entered the educational market).<br> <br>

A few psychologists will probably pick up lucrative gigs administering soothing words and flashcards to the spawn of the neurotic upper middle class for $150/hour; but(assuming that the research holds up) that is going to be a very niche treatment model. Everybody else will get 10 minutes of breathing exercises or a benzo and then a trip to the computer lab. And, frankly, I'd be delighted if a few rounds of that is all it takes. Widespread innumeracy isn't a good thing and, if we sit around waiting for people to just snap out of it, we'll be waiting a while.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Psychologists might like the answer to be " Therapy " ; but , even if they explicitly say so , I doubt it 'll make much difference .
Basic anti-anxiety techniques can easily be administered by people much cheaper than psychologists ( generic social workers , pretty much any teacher or aide with a little training ) and there is a collection of anti-anxiety drugs with fairly favorable safety profiles that can be handed out by anybody who can write a prescription ( which , if the experience with things like Ritalin is any indication , will sometimes be a fancy psychiatrist ; but will more often just be the family doctor ) .
Drilling math problems , especially low-level arithmetic , is a task practically tailor-made for computers ( and software for the purpose has already entered the educational market ) .
A few psychologists will probably pick up lucrative gigs administering soothing words and flashcards to the spawn of the neurotic upper middle class for $ 150/hour ; but ( assuming that the research holds up ) that is going to be a very niche treatment model .
Everybody else will get 10 minutes of breathing exercises or a benzo and then a trip to the computer lab .
And , frankly , I 'd be delighted if a few rounds of that is all it takes .
Widespread innumeracy is n't a good thing and , if we sit around waiting for people to just snap out of it , we 'll be waiting a while .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Psychologists might like the answer to be "Therapy"; but, even if they explicitly say so, I doubt it'll make much difference.
Basic anti-anxiety techniques can easily be administered by people much cheaper than psychologists(generic social workers, pretty much any teacher or aide with a little training) and there is a collection of anti-anxiety drugs with fairly favorable safety profiles that can be handed out by anybody who can write a prescription(which, if the experience with things like Ritalin is any indication, will sometimes be a fancy psychiatrist; but will more often just be the family doctor).
Drilling math problems, especially low-level arithmetic, is a task practically tailor-made for computers(and software for the purpose has already entered the educational market).
A few psychologists will probably pick up lucrative gigs administering soothing words and flashcards to the spawn of the neurotic upper middle class for $150/hour; but(assuming that the research holds up) that is going to be a very niche treatment model.
Everybody else will get 10 minutes of breathing exercises or a benzo and then a trip to the computer lab.
And, frankly, I'd be delighted if a few rounds of that is all it takes.
Widespread innumeracy isn't a good thing and, if we sit around waiting for people to just snap out of it, we'll be waiting a while.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213844</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213792</id>
	<title>Oh God....</title>
	<author>zach\_the\_lizard</author>
	<datestamp>1266665880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Oh my god! That calc test on surface integrals is scaring me! How many days do I have until I have to take it? Let's see, one, two, four? Shit, shit! Let's start over. One, two, three, where was I? Oh god, how did I make it this far? Was this all some sort of ruse to make me feel good about myself? Has my whole life so far been a lie? How can I major in CS if I can't even count! If only I had learned that I was terribly afraid of math all those years ago....I think there is only one way out of here: majoring in education or running for office. Or is that two? Dammit, there we go again!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh my god !
That calc test on surface integrals is scaring me !
How many days do I have until I have to take it ?
Let 's see , one , two , four ?
Shit , shit !
Let 's start over .
One , two , three , where was I ?
Oh god , how did I make it this far ?
Was this all some sort of ruse to make me feel good about myself ?
Has my whole life so far been a lie ?
How can I major in CS if I ca n't even count !
If only I had learned that I was terribly afraid of math all those years ago....I think there is only one way out of here : majoring in education or running for office .
Or is that two ?
Dammit , there we go again !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh my god!
That calc test on surface integrals is scaring me!
How many days do I have until I have to take it?
Let's see, one, two, four?
Shit, shit!
Let's start over.
One, two, three, where was I?
Oh god, how did I make it this far?
Was this all some sort of ruse to make me feel good about myself?
Has my whole life so far been a lie?
How can I major in CS if I can't even count!
If only I had learned that I was terribly afraid of math all those years ago....I think there is only one way out of here: majoring in education or running for office.
Or is that two?
Dammit, there we go again!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31216302</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266689580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>( 7 * 10) + (7 * 3)<br>70 + 21<br>91</p><p>Very easy if you break it into chunks.  I cannot solve 7 * 13 directly but can solve it in easy-to-digest-steps.  I tend to attempt to re-cast the problem when forced to do it mentally.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>( 7 * 10 ) + ( 7 * 3 ) 70 + 2191Very easy if you break it into chunks .
I can not solve 7 * 13 directly but can solve it in easy-to-digest-steps .
I tend to attempt to re-cast the problem when forced to do it mentally .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>( 7 * 10) + (7 * 3)70 + 2191Very easy if you break it into chunks.
I cannot solve 7 * 13 directly but can solve it in easy-to-digest-steps.
I tend to attempt to re-cast the problem when forced to do it mentally.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214414</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214600</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266672540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or to prove that Earth is actually warming.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P</p><p>But oh well, every winter people say "oh noes, look outside, it's cold".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or to prove that Earth is actually warming .
: PBut oh well , every winter people say " oh noes , look outside , it 's cold " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or to prove that Earth is actually warming.
:PBut oh well, every winter people say "oh noes, look outside, it's cold".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213830</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213992</id>
	<title>Not surpised</title>
	<author>oycob</author>
	<datestamp>1266668040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I do voulenteer work for a non-profit organization helping high-school kids with their homework, and with the kids who aren't that confident with math there's always these really simple mistakes - at least when I'm sitting there helping them/watching what they're writing. Suddenly 4+4 isn't 8, and 1/2 isn't 0,5... when I point these things out, it's obvious that they really do know these things. They're just stressed out, and that's what keeping them from performing. For a lot of these kids the same thing happens during tests. They kind of blank out and do weird things that they wouldn't normally do (I'm still talking math here...). I would imagine that standing there with lots of psychologists observing you counting these squares would make people stressed out... I for one would wonder what trick they were trying to pull - how is this a trick question? No wonder it takes someone who's not confident with math a little time to answer. But hey, this is perhaps exactly what they were trying to show with all this. So there ya go.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do voulenteer work for a non-profit organization helping high-school kids with their homework , and with the kids who are n't that confident with math there 's always these really simple mistakes - at least when I 'm sitting there helping them/watching what they 're writing .
Suddenly 4 + 4 is n't 8 , and 1/2 is n't 0,5... when I point these things out , it 's obvious that they really do know these things .
They 're just stressed out , and that 's what keeping them from performing .
For a lot of these kids the same thing happens during tests .
They kind of blank out and do weird things that they would n't normally do ( I 'm still talking math here... ) .
I would imagine that standing there with lots of psychologists observing you counting these squares would make people stressed out... I for one would wonder what trick they were trying to pull - how is this a trick question ?
No wonder it takes someone who 's not confident with math a little time to answer .
But hey , this is perhaps exactly what they were trying to show with all this .
So there ya go .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I do voulenteer work for a non-profit organization helping high-school kids with their homework, and with the kids who aren't that confident with math there's always these really simple mistakes - at least when I'm sitting there helping them/watching what they're writing.
Suddenly 4+4 isn't 8, and 1/2 isn't 0,5... when I point these things out, it's obvious that they really do know these things.
They're just stressed out, and that's what keeping them from performing.
For a lot of these kids the same thing happens during tests.
They kind of blank out and do weird things that they wouldn't normally do (I'm still talking math here...).
I would imagine that standing there with lots of psychologists observing you counting these squares would make people stressed out... I for one would wonder what trick they were trying to pull - how is this a trick question?
No wonder it takes someone who's not confident with math a little time to answer.
But hey, this is perhaps exactly what they were trying to show with all this.
So there ya go.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213922</id>
	<title>Training and Confidence</title>
	<author>y4ku</author>
	<datestamp>1266667140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think the issue is one of confidence.
If you do math on a daily basis, or even have to count things as in this study on a daily basis with the knowledge that you must be right, you'll be more confident in your final answer because you're used to it.
Put a guy from a machine shop that has to count 1000 drill bits before he ships them to make sure the shipping order is precise, and he'll top that study.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the issue is one of confidence .
If you do math on a daily basis , or even have to count things as in this study on a daily basis with the knowledge that you must be right , you 'll be more confident in your final answer because you 're used to it .
Put a guy from a machine shop that has to count 1000 drill bits before he ships them to make sure the shipping order is precise , and he 'll top that study .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the issue is one of confidence.
If you do math on a daily basis, or even have to count things as in this study on a daily basis with the knowledge that you must be right, you'll be more confident in your final answer because you're used to it.
Put a guy from a machine shop that has to count 1000 drill bits before he ships them to make sure the shipping order is precise, and he'll top that study.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31215920</id>
	<title>Cognitive styles, poor teaching, and poor testing.</title>
	<author>kklein</author>
	<datestamp>1266685800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I use and even sometimes teach factor analysis, item response theory (Rasch and multiparameter), structural equation modeling (okay, so most of those are flavors of the same thing), as well as a whole host of other statistical analyses. But as I prepare to go back to grad school for a PhD, and therefore need the GRE again, I'm struck--yet again--how absolute shit I am at arithmetic. Questions that require me to just manipulate variables around are no problem, but if they throw an actual value in there, and I have to work on that with scratch paper, I have to be REEEEALLY slow and careful, because I make more stupid arithmetic errors than anyone I know.

</p><p>I also joke (but not joking, really) that I can't count. I'll count something 3 times and come up with a different number. I'm terrible. Terrible.

</p><p>Writing code in R is easier for me than the multiplication table.

</p><p>However, as an applied linguist, I also know quite a bit about another cognitive activity, and I think I've noticed a pattern. When I'm learning a new language, I tear through the grammar and make very few mistakes. But vocabulary? It's here and then it's gone. I study the same words over and over and over again, and they just don't stick. It's embarrassing.

</p><p>So what do these two things have in common? Working in code, moving variables around, and human language grammar are all procedural knowledge. They are "processing"-intensive. Numbers, the multiplication table, and vocabulary are all stored, static knowledge. They are memory-intensive. So if I'm bad at those things, perhaps we would expect that I would also have a terrible memory, right.

</p><p>Guess what? I live by lists and notes to myself. I have a memory like a sieve. I first started doing this with my research--taking detailed notes on everything I did--because I once realized when I was done prepping, carrying out, and interpreting a particularly labor-intensive analysis of some of my data, that I had just done it the previous weekend, and just... forgot. Luckily, my findings were the same both times.  Sometimes I find things that I've written to myself and I have no recollection of writing them, but I know my handwriting, so I just do what they say. Seriously. I'm like the guy from <i>Memento.</i>

</p><p>So at the heart of this whole "math anxiety" thing, I think, we might just have different cognitive styles at work here. I'm a university researcher. I'm not dumb. I've turned out fine, by doing the things I'm bad at in a way that takes advantage of things I'm good at. You know, like everyone does all the time. What might make people anxious about math is that--and this is coming from a professional tester (what do you think "item response theory" is for?)--we assess it in a very one-dimensional way that does not "bias for best" (a saying in the testing community--design tests that allow the examinee to show off their best, because that's what we're really interested in).

</p><p>In the US, at least, we have a really flawed way of teaching and assessing math skills--one which, I think, leads a lot of people to quit because they think they can't do it, or that it's boring. Math is no more boring than stirring a bowl, and everyone loves cake. It's just a means to an end, but we never get the actual cake in the school system, so people get all worried about stirring and finally just end up buying cake from the store and saying "wow,  you must be really good at stirring"--when the pros use machines for that crap.

</p><p>So, to sum up, I don't actually think we have an "anxiety" problem. People are anxious because they think they suck at math. They think they suck at math because they suck at math. But sucking at math might be due to totally benign cognitive style differences that are easily routed around. --If we can fix our pedagogical and assessment approaches to math education, I think you'll see this "anxiety" disappear, and find that most people can handle math-intensive tasks if they are presented them in a better, and more realistic, way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I use and even sometimes teach factor analysis , item response theory ( Rasch and multiparameter ) , structural equation modeling ( okay , so most of those are flavors of the same thing ) , as well as a whole host of other statistical analyses .
But as I prepare to go back to grad school for a PhD , and therefore need the GRE again , I 'm struck--yet again--how absolute shit I am at arithmetic .
Questions that require me to just manipulate variables around are no problem , but if they throw an actual value in there , and I have to work on that with scratch paper , I have to be REEEEALLY slow and careful , because I make more stupid arithmetic errors than anyone I know .
I also joke ( but not joking , really ) that I ca n't count .
I 'll count something 3 times and come up with a different number .
I 'm terrible .
Terrible . Writing code in R is easier for me than the multiplication table .
However , as an applied linguist , I also know quite a bit about another cognitive activity , and I think I 've noticed a pattern .
When I 'm learning a new language , I tear through the grammar and make very few mistakes .
But vocabulary ?
It 's here and then it 's gone .
I study the same words over and over and over again , and they just do n't stick .
It 's embarrassing .
So what do these two things have in common ?
Working in code , moving variables around , and human language grammar are all procedural knowledge .
They are " processing " -intensive .
Numbers , the multiplication table , and vocabulary are all stored , static knowledge .
They are memory-intensive .
So if I 'm bad at those things , perhaps we would expect that I would also have a terrible memory , right .
Guess what ?
I live by lists and notes to myself .
I have a memory like a sieve .
I first started doing this with my research--taking detailed notes on everything I did--because I once realized when I was done prepping , carrying out , and interpreting a particularly labor-intensive analysis of some of my data , that I had just done it the previous weekend , and just... forgot. Luckily , my findings were the same both times .
Sometimes I find things that I 've written to myself and I have no recollection of writing them , but I know my handwriting , so I just do what they say .
Seriously. I 'm like the guy from Memento .
So at the heart of this whole " math anxiety " thing , I think , we might just have different cognitive styles at work here .
I 'm a university researcher .
I 'm not dumb .
I 've turned out fine , by doing the things I 'm bad at in a way that takes advantage of things I 'm good at .
You know , like everyone does all the time .
What might make people anxious about math is that--and this is coming from a professional tester ( what do you think " item response theory " is for ?
) --we assess it in a very one-dimensional way that does not " bias for best " ( a saying in the testing community--design tests that allow the examinee to show off their best , because that 's what we 're really interested in ) .
In the US , at least , we have a really flawed way of teaching and assessing math skills--one which , I think , leads a lot of people to quit because they think they ca n't do it , or that it 's boring .
Math is no more boring than stirring a bowl , and everyone loves cake .
It 's just a means to an end , but we never get the actual cake in the school system , so people get all worried about stirring and finally just end up buying cake from the store and saying " wow , you must be really good at stirring " --when the pros use machines for that crap .
So , to sum up , I do n't actually think we have an " anxiety " problem .
People are anxious because they think they suck at math .
They think they suck at math because they suck at math .
But sucking at math might be due to totally benign cognitive style differences that are easily routed around .
--If we can fix our pedagogical and assessment approaches to math education , I think you 'll see this " anxiety " disappear , and find that most people can handle math-intensive tasks if they are presented them in a better , and more realistic , way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I use and even sometimes teach factor analysis, item response theory (Rasch and multiparameter), structural equation modeling (okay, so most of those are flavors of the same thing), as well as a whole host of other statistical analyses.
But as I prepare to go back to grad school for a PhD, and therefore need the GRE again, I'm struck--yet again--how absolute shit I am at arithmetic.
Questions that require me to just manipulate variables around are no problem, but if they throw an actual value in there, and I have to work on that with scratch paper, I have to be REEEEALLY slow and careful, because I make more stupid arithmetic errors than anyone I know.
I also joke (but not joking, really) that I can't count.
I'll count something 3 times and come up with a different number.
I'm terrible.
Terrible.

Writing code in R is easier for me than the multiplication table.
However, as an applied linguist, I also know quite a bit about another cognitive activity, and I think I've noticed a pattern.
When I'm learning a new language, I tear through the grammar and make very few mistakes.
But vocabulary?
It's here and then it's gone.
I study the same words over and over and over again, and they just don't stick.
It's embarrassing.
So what do these two things have in common?
Working in code, moving variables around, and human language grammar are all procedural knowledge.
They are "processing"-intensive.
Numbers, the multiplication table, and vocabulary are all stored, static knowledge.
They are memory-intensive.
So if I'm bad at those things, perhaps we would expect that I would also have a terrible memory, right.
Guess what?
I live by lists and notes to myself.
I have a memory like a sieve.
I first started doing this with my research--taking detailed notes on everything I did--because I once realized when I was done prepping, carrying out, and interpreting a particularly labor-intensive analysis of some of my data, that I had just done it the previous weekend, and just... forgot. Luckily, my findings were the same both times.
Sometimes I find things that I've written to myself and I have no recollection of writing them, but I know my handwriting, so I just do what they say.
Seriously. I'm like the guy from Memento.
So at the heart of this whole "math anxiety" thing, I think, we might just have different cognitive styles at work here.
I'm a university researcher.
I'm not dumb.
I've turned out fine, by doing the things I'm bad at in a way that takes advantage of things I'm good at.
You know, like everyone does all the time.
What might make people anxious about math is that--and this is coming from a professional tester (what do you think "item response theory" is for?
)--we assess it in a very one-dimensional way that does not "bias for best" (a saying in the testing community--design tests that allow the examinee to show off their best, because that's what we're really interested in).
In the US, at least, we have a really flawed way of teaching and assessing math skills--one which, I think, leads a lot of people to quit because they think they can't do it, or that it's boring.
Math is no more boring than stirring a bowl, and everyone loves cake.
It's just a means to an end, but we never get the actual cake in the school system, so people get all worried about stirring and finally just end up buying cake from the store and saying "wow,  you must be really good at stirring"--when the pros use machines for that crap.
So, to sum up, I don't actually think we have an "anxiety" problem.
People are anxious because they think they suck at math.
They think they suck at math because they suck at math.
But sucking at math might be due to totally benign cognitive style differences that are easily routed around.
--If we can fix our pedagogical and assessment approaches to math education, I think you'll see this "anxiety" disappear, and find that most people can handle math-intensive tasks if they are presented them in a better, and more realistic, way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213864</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213772</id>
	<title>nth post!</title>
	<author>Colz Grigor</author>
	<datestamp>1266665640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I guess this explains why so many "first post"s actually aren't...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess this explains why so many " first post " s actually are n't.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess this explains why so many "first post"s actually aren't...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213870</id>
	<title>The REAL story - Canadian Uni Students are Dumb as</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266666540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>In two experiments, 28 undergraduate students - 14 with low math anxiety and 14 with high math anxiety - were shown a set of black squares on a computer screen. The squares ranged in number from one to nine and participants were simply asked to identify the number of squares.
</p><p>
Although they were timed, participants were not rushed and the display stayed on the screen until a response was made.

</p><p>
When there were one to four squares presented (the subitizing range), both groups of students performed equally well.

</p><p>
But when there were five or more squares presented (the counting range), the math anxious students were significantly slower and less accurate in counting the squares.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
If you can't count to 9, you shouldn't be in university.  Just as if you can't write a 2-page memo, you shouldn't be in university.
</p><p>
Maybe I can get a grant to study whether it's due to the consumption of Canadian beer, or just colder weather freezing their grey matter.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In two experiments , 28 undergraduate students - 14 with low math anxiety and 14 with high math anxiety - were shown a set of black squares on a computer screen .
The squares ranged in number from one to nine and participants were simply asked to identify the number of squares .
Although they were timed , participants were not rushed and the display stayed on the screen until a response was made .
When there were one to four squares presented ( the subitizing range ) , both groups of students performed equally well .
But when there were five or more squares presented ( the counting range ) , the math anxious students were significantly slower and less accurate in counting the squares .
If you ca n't count to 9 , you should n't be in university .
Just as if you ca n't write a 2-page memo , you should n't be in university .
Maybe I can get a grant to study whether it 's due to the consumption of Canadian beer , or just colder weather freezing their grey matter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In two experiments, 28 undergraduate students - 14 with low math anxiety and 14 with high math anxiety - were shown a set of black squares on a computer screen.
The squares ranged in number from one to nine and participants were simply asked to identify the number of squares.
Although they were timed, participants were not rushed and the display stayed on the screen until a response was made.
When there were one to four squares presented (the subitizing range), both groups of students performed equally well.
But when there were five or more squares presented (the counting range), the math anxious students were significantly slower and less accurate in counting the squares.
If you can't count to 9, you shouldn't be in university.
Just as if you can't write a 2-page memo, you shouldn't be in university.
Maybe I can get a grant to study whether it's due to the consumption of Canadian beer, or just colder weather freezing their grey matter.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31215020</id>
	<title>Re:The REAL story - Canadian Uni Students are Dumb</title>
	<author>Kral\_Blbec</author>
	<datestamp>1266676440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd have to argue that if you can't write a memo in under 2 pages you shouldnt be in a university.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd have to argue that if you ca n't write a memo in under 2 pages you shouldnt be in a university .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd have to argue that if you can't write a memo in under 2 pages you shouldnt be in a university.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213870</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213912</id>
	<title>Re:Oh God....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266667080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think it has a lot to do with the frequency of calculations.  Most high order math doesn't require dealing with large numbers, but variables.  So you don't get a lot of fiddling with actual calculations in your day to day life, other than maybe adding up bills (which you tend to estimate on anyway-  you round things up or down for easy adding).  I used to be able to take a square root to 4 significant figures in my head in just a few seconds.  I still remember how, but trying to do so would take me a minute or so-  I just don't practice multiplication and division of large numbers every day anymore.  No real need to.  But if I practiced again I'd get my speed back.  I think the same goes for most people who learn and study higher mathematics-  any loss in calculation speed is due to not needing to use it often.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think it has a lot to do with the frequency of calculations .
Most high order math does n't require dealing with large numbers , but variables .
So you do n't get a lot of fiddling with actual calculations in your day to day life , other than maybe adding up bills ( which you tend to estimate on anyway- you round things up or down for easy adding ) .
I used to be able to take a square root to 4 significant figures in my head in just a few seconds .
I still remember how , but trying to do so would take me a minute or so- I just do n't practice multiplication and division of large numbers every day anymore .
No real need to .
But if I practiced again I 'd get my speed back .
I think the same goes for most people who learn and study higher mathematics- any loss in calculation speed is due to not needing to use it often .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think it has a lot to do with the frequency of calculations.
Most high order math doesn't require dealing with large numbers, but variables.
So you don't get a lot of fiddling with actual calculations in your day to day life, other than maybe adding up bills (which you tend to estimate on anyway-  you round things up or down for easy adding).
I used to be able to take a square root to 4 significant figures in my head in just a few seconds.
I still remember how, but trying to do so would take me a minute or so-  I just don't practice multiplication and division of large numbers every day anymore.
No real need to.
But if I practiced again I'd get my speed back.
I think the same goes for most people who learn and study higher mathematics-  any loss in calculation speed is due to not needing to use it often.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213864</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31215310</id>
	<title>Re:The REAL story - Canadian Uni Students are Dumb</title>
	<author>MrShaggy</author>
	<datestamp>1266678900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Between the beer and a thc count so high, it would raise Jerry Garcia from the dead, you might have something.</p><p>However while i was in my technician class, the math was killer. i was ok using my text-book.</p><p>The minute I had to use the calculator that is part of the course I went for a  shit.</p><p>The idea that I might have the same issues makes more sense.</p><p>Not that I am an idiot, just forgot how  poor my math is.</p><p>Not too mention I am Canadian</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Between the beer and a thc count so high , it would raise Jerry Garcia from the dead , you might have something.However while i was in my technician class , the math was killer .
i was ok using my text-book.The minute I had to use the calculator that is part of the course I went for a shit.The idea that I might have the same issues makes more sense.Not that I am an idiot , just forgot how poor my math is.Not too mention I am Canadian</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Between the beer and a thc count so high, it would raise Jerry Garcia from the dead, you might have something.However while i was in my technician class, the math was killer.
i was ok using my text-book.The minute I had to use the calculator that is part of the course I went for a  shit.The idea that I might have the same issues makes more sense.Not that I am an idiot, just forgot how  poor my math is.Not too mention I am Canadian</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213870</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214128</id>
	<title>Re:The REAL story - Canadian Uni Students are Dumb</title>
	<author>ObsessiveMathsFreak</author>
	<datestamp>1266669240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Just as if you can't write a 2-page memo, you shouldn't be in university.</p></div></blockquote><p>Curious. I would think knowing how to write a memo that wasn't two or more pages long would have been the requirement.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just as if you ca n't write a 2-page memo , you should n't be in university.Curious .
I would think knowing how to write a memo that was n't two or more pages long would have been the requirement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just as if you can't write a 2-page memo, you shouldn't be in university.Curious.
I would think knowing how to write a memo that wasn't two or more pages long would have been the requirement.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213870</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213832</id>
	<title>Doesn't apply to Picard</title>
	<author>nycguy</author>
	<datestamp>1266666180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o\_eSwq1ewsU" title="youtube.com">There...are...four...lights!</a> [youtube.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>There...are...four...lights !
[ youtube.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There...are...four...lights!
[youtube.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31216666</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266694980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>people just need to smoke a joint and chill out</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>people just need to smoke a joint and chill out</tokentext>
<sentencetext>people just need to smoke a joint and chill out</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213730</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214772</id>
	<title>Re:Real math anxiety is...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266674340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Uh, I think you mean whether the conditional should be <i>i &lt; size</i> or <i>i &lt;= size</i>.  size-1 is not all that common.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Uh , I think you mean whether the conditional should be i or i .
size-1 is not all that common .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Uh, I think you mean whether the conditional should be i  or i .
size-1 is not all that common.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213904</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214224</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266669900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>And how much more "confirmation" did this "science" provide?</htmltext>
<tokenext>And how much more " confirmation " did this " science " provide ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And how much more "confirmation" did this "science" provide?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213816</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213844</id>
	<title>Meh</title>
	<author>Dunbal</author>
	<datestamp>1266666300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Psychologists are great at making excuses for everything. Especially when the probable "solution" is going to be - THERAPY! Wow I didn't see that one coming. No conflict of interest whatsoever.</p><p>The bottom line is if you can't count, you can't count. AND practice makes perfect. Oh and guess what - doing something over and over also reduces anxiety. Hey, maybe those people are "anxious" about math because they're the ones that never did their math homework! Maybe doing math homework and doing the "extra credit" problems and oh I will go all out here - doing the EVEN numbered problems even when your teacher only assigned the ODD numbered problems, and WITHOUT looking at the answers in the back of the book, help build confidence and reduce anxiety.</p><p>Call me when they pass a law banning math classes because they are a form of emotional "child abuse". No child left behind.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Psychologists are great at making excuses for everything .
Especially when the probable " solution " is going to be - THERAPY !
Wow I did n't see that one coming .
No conflict of interest whatsoever.The bottom line is if you ca n't count , you ca n't count .
AND practice makes perfect .
Oh and guess what - doing something over and over also reduces anxiety .
Hey , maybe those people are " anxious " about math because they 're the ones that never did their math homework !
Maybe doing math homework and doing the " extra credit " problems and oh I will go all out here - doing the EVEN numbered problems even when your teacher only assigned the ODD numbered problems , and WITHOUT looking at the answers in the back of the book , help build confidence and reduce anxiety.Call me when they pass a law banning math classes because they are a form of emotional " child abuse " .
No child left behind .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Psychologists are great at making excuses for everything.
Especially when the probable "solution" is going to be - THERAPY!
Wow I didn't see that one coming.
No conflict of interest whatsoever.The bottom line is if you can't count, you can't count.
AND practice makes perfect.
Oh and guess what - doing something over and over also reduces anxiety.
Hey, maybe those people are "anxious" about math because they're the ones that never did their math homework!
Maybe doing math homework and doing the "extra credit" problems and oh I will go all out here - doing the EVEN numbered problems even when your teacher only assigned the ODD numbered problems, and WITHOUT looking at the answers in the back of the book, help build confidence and reduce anxiety.Call me when they pass a law banning math classes because they are a form of emotional "child abuse".
No child left behind.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31218974</id>
	<title>Got the cause and effect flipped?</title>
	<author>mrbamboo</author>
	<datestamp>1266772980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Instead of math anxiety causing people to be bad at math. Maybe they have math anxiety because they are bad a math?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Instead of math anxiety causing people to be bad at math .
Maybe they have math anxiety because they are bad a math ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Instead of math anxiety causing people to be bad at math.
Maybe they have math anxiety because they are bad a math?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214088</id>
	<title>Re:Oh God....</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1266668880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe these people are generally like my math prof during my university years. He was an absolute math genius. Yet calculation (ya know, the good ol' 2+2=4) was not his forte. Not because it was hard. Quite the opposite. It was boring. Or "trivial" as he loved to say. He hated trivial stuff. You could literally see how teaching entry level math was a veritable chore and outright torture to him. How come these idiots couldn't wrap their feeble brains around a simple concept like double integrals...</p><p>These people don't really care about the solution for a calculation, they care about finding one. The old joke about a mathematician sitting in a burning room, spotting a fire extinguisher and going "there's a solution!" before turning around in his bed to sleep is pretty dead on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe these people are generally like my math prof during my university years .
He was an absolute math genius .
Yet calculation ( ya know , the good ol ' 2 + 2 = 4 ) was not his forte .
Not because it was hard .
Quite the opposite .
It was boring .
Or " trivial " as he loved to say .
He hated trivial stuff .
You could literally see how teaching entry level math was a veritable chore and outright torture to him .
How come these idiots could n't wrap their feeble brains around a simple concept like double integrals...These people do n't really care about the solution for a calculation , they care about finding one .
The old joke about a mathematician sitting in a burning room , spotting a fire extinguisher and going " there 's a solution !
" before turning around in his bed to sleep is pretty dead on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe these people are generally like my math prof during my university years.
He was an absolute math genius.
Yet calculation (ya know, the good ol' 2+2=4) was not his forte.
Not because it was hard.
Quite the opposite.
It was boring.
Or "trivial" as he loved to say.
He hated trivial stuff.
You could literally see how teaching entry level math was a veritable chore and outright torture to him.
How come these idiots couldn't wrap their feeble brains around a simple concept like double integrals...These people don't really care about the solution for a calculation, they care about finding one.
The old joke about a mathematician sitting in a burning room, spotting a fire extinguisher and going "there's a solution!
" before turning around in his bed to sleep is pretty dead on.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213864</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213920</id>
	<title>How math is taught</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266667140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My impression, through my own experience and people I have spoken to, is that maths is hard to learn because it is generally abstract. For example I get the general feeling that more people pass calculus when they are given an application that help provide a visual context to the skill, such as physics. This is probably the same reason why computers sometimes detract people from using them. The only difference is that we spend a huge amount of time and effort trying to make computers easy, though I am not sure the same can be said about mathematics.</p><p>Having sat through a number of maths classes, and lectures, I find that the people teaching the subject, often fail to appreciate that what they find easy is not necessarily the case for others. This means they don't show the necessary steps or fail to find techniques to facilitate the understanding. Sometimes its almost as if they want to make maths hard to learn. Of course people end up get anxious since they end up feeling stupid.</p><p>Although we talk about car analogies here, in order to make things easy to understand to the, I find the same can benefit maths. By trying to understand what the skill set of your audience is and adapting the teaching helps. For example the 'sum' sign looks hard until (if amongst computer people) you explain its just a 'for each' with addition and the 'pi' sign is a 'for each' with multiplication. In certain cases it is equivalent to the linguistic differences between English and Chinese, in that they both can talk about the same thing, but the way in which they do so is not the same.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My impression , through my own experience and people I have spoken to , is that maths is hard to learn because it is generally abstract .
For example I get the general feeling that more people pass calculus when they are given an application that help provide a visual context to the skill , such as physics .
This is probably the same reason why computers sometimes detract people from using them .
The only difference is that we spend a huge amount of time and effort trying to make computers easy , though I am not sure the same can be said about mathematics.Having sat through a number of maths classes , and lectures , I find that the people teaching the subject , often fail to appreciate that what they find easy is not necessarily the case for others .
This means they do n't show the necessary steps or fail to find techniques to facilitate the understanding .
Sometimes its almost as if they want to make maths hard to learn .
Of course people end up get anxious since they end up feeling stupid.Although we talk about car analogies here , in order to make things easy to understand to the , I find the same can benefit maths .
By trying to understand what the skill set of your audience is and adapting the teaching helps .
For example the 'sum ' sign looks hard until ( if amongst computer people ) you explain its just a 'for each ' with addition and the 'pi ' sign is a 'for each ' with multiplication .
In certain cases it is equivalent to the linguistic differences between English and Chinese , in that they both can talk about the same thing , but the way in which they do so is not the same .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My impression, through my own experience and people I have spoken to, is that maths is hard to learn because it is generally abstract.
For example I get the general feeling that more people pass calculus when they are given an application that help provide a visual context to the skill, such as physics.
This is probably the same reason why computers sometimes detract people from using them.
The only difference is that we spend a huge amount of time and effort trying to make computers easy, though I am not sure the same can be said about mathematics.Having sat through a number of maths classes, and lectures, I find that the people teaching the subject, often fail to appreciate that what they find easy is not necessarily the case for others.
This means they don't show the necessary steps or fail to find techniques to facilitate the understanding.
Sometimes its almost as if they want to make maths hard to learn.
Of course people end up get anxious since they end up feeling stupid.Although we talk about car analogies here, in order to make things easy to understand to the, I find the same can benefit maths.
By trying to understand what the skill set of your audience is and adapting the teaching helps.
For example the 'sum' sign looks hard until (if amongst computer people) you explain its just a 'for each' with addition and the 'pi' sign is a 'for each' with multiplication.
In certain cases it is equivalent to the linguistic differences between English and Chinese, in that they both can talk about the same thing, but the way in which they do so is not the same.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214392</id>
	<title>Re:How math is taught</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266671100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"My impression, through my own experience and people I have spoken to, is that maths is hard to learn because it is generally abstract."</p><p>Something I blogged about 2 years ago:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>So here I am thinking obsessively deep about what exactly that "biggest idea" should be in each of math and computer sci classes. And oddly I find that all the different math/compsci classes sort of get sucked into the same single, primary big idea in my head. My concern is that it's such a big idea that it can't fit into a single class, or really into the sequence of subjects already mapped out. Or that it will be comprehensible at the level of incoming students...</p><p>For today let's say it's this: <i>Abstraction</i>. Getting comfortable with it. Getting proficient with it. Knowing deeply what it implies (Getting rid of details. Panning out just the key big-league concept that you need to apply.) Being able to recognize that any knowledge domain will have a bunch of different abstraction levels, and being able to pick the right one you want to be working at. And being comfortable with <i>forgetting everything else</i> as long as yourk work lasts.</p></div><p>To summarize, I argue this: <b>The whole point of a math class is to be abstract.</b> If it's not abstract, then it's not math. If you didn't need to practice your abstraction skills, then you wouldn't need any math classes.</p><p><a href="http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&amp;friendId=65175992&amp;blogId=425845770" title="myspace.com">http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&amp;friendId=65175992&amp;blogId=425845770</a> [myspace.com]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" My impression , through my own experience and people I have spoken to , is that maths is hard to learn because it is generally abstract .
" Something I blogged about 2 years ago : So here I am thinking obsessively deep about what exactly that " biggest idea " should be in each of math and computer sci classes .
And oddly I find that all the different math/compsci classes sort of get sucked into the same single , primary big idea in my head .
My concern is that it 's such a big idea that it ca n't fit into a single class , or really into the sequence of subjects already mapped out .
Or that it will be comprehensible at the level of incoming students...For today let 's say it 's this : Abstraction .
Getting comfortable with it .
Getting proficient with it .
Knowing deeply what it implies ( Getting rid of details .
Panning out just the key big-league concept that you need to apply .
) Being able to recognize that any knowledge domain will have a bunch of different abstraction levels , and being able to pick the right one you want to be working at .
And being comfortable with forgetting everything else as long as yourk work lasts.To summarize , I argue this : The whole point of a math class is to be abstract .
If it 's not abstract , then it 's not math .
If you did n't need to practice your abstraction skills , then you would n't need any math classes.http : //blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm ? fuseaction = blog.view&amp;friendId = 65175992&amp;blogId = 425845770 [ myspace.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"My impression, through my own experience and people I have spoken to, is that maths is hard to learn because it is generally abstract.
"Something I blogged about 2 years ago:So here I am thinking obsessively deep about what exactly that "biggest idea" should be in each of math and computer sci classes.
And oddly I find that all the different math/compsci classes sort of get sucked into the same single, primary big idea in my head.
My concern is that it's such a big idea that it can't fit into a single class, or really into the sequence of subjects already mapped out.
Or that it will be comprehensible at the level of incoming students...For today let's say it's this: Abstraction.
Getting comfortable with it.
Getting proficient with it.
Knowing deeply what it implies (Getting rid of details.
Panning out just the key big-league concept that you need to apply.
) Being able to recognize that any knowledge domain will have a bunch of different abstraction levels, and being able to pick the right one you want to be working at.
And being comfortable with forgetting everything else as long as yourk work lasts.To summarize, I argue this: The whole point of a math class is to be abstract.
If it's not abstract, then it's not math.
If you didn't need to practice your abstraction skills, then you wouldn't need any math classes.http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&amp;friendId=65175992&amp;blogId=425845770 [myspace.com]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213920</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31217902</id>
	<title>/me</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266762420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>/me wonders how you can be "less accurate" when counting between 5 and 9?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>/me wonders how you can be " less accurate " when counting between 5 and 9 ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>/me wonders how you can be "less accurate" when counting between 5 and 9?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31216770</id>
	<title>Re:How math is taught</title>
	<author>Yuuki Dasu</author>
	<datestamp>1266783120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>To summarize, I argue this: <b>The whole point of a math class is to be abstract.</b> If it's not abstract, then it's not math. If you didn't need to practice your abstraction skills, then you wouldn't need any math classes.</p></div><p>Certainly, math from the level of Algebra onward is an exercise in abstraction.  However, that's a far cry from saying that abstraction is the goal of math education.  As the GP and others (http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1557648&amp;cid=31215548 for example) suggest, many people understand math better when they have concrete examples to work with.  This concept makes me think of a gem from <i>Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynmann</i>, from a chapter titled <i>A Different Box of Tools</i>:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>I had a scheme, which I still use today when somebody is explaining something that I'm trying to understand: I keep making up examples. For instance, the mathematicians would come in with a terrific theorem, and they're all excited. As they're telling me the conditions of the theorem, I construct something which fits all the conditions.</p></div><p>I don't mean to knock abstraction, as it's vital to learn, as you argue in your blog post, with your wonderful Introductory Algebra example.  As you say, trying out all values would take "a hella long time".  Still, many students understand the abstract generalization better after you give a few concrete examples.  That's all people are asking for: solid applications of things in order to connect them to what they know and can understand, instead of sequences of meaningless rules of operations.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>To summarize , I argue this : The whole point of a math class is to be abstract .
If it 's not abstract , then it 's not math .
If you did n't need to practice your abstraction skills , then you would n't need any math classes.Certainly , math from the level of Algebra onward is an exercise in abstraction .
However , that 's a far cry from saying that abstraction is the goal of math education .
As the GP and others ( http : //science.slashdot.org/comments.pl ? sid = 1557648&amp;cid = 31215548 for example ) suggest , many people understand math better when they have concrete examples to work with .
This concept makes me think of a gem from Surely You 're Joking , Mr. Feynmann , from a chapter titled A Different Box of Tools : I had a scheme , which I still use today when somebody is explaining something that I 'm trying to understand : I keep making up examples .
For instance , the mathematicians would come in with a terrific theorem , and they 're all excited .
As they 're telling me the conditions of the theorem , I construct something which fits all the conditions.I do n't mean to knock abstraction , as it 's vital to learn , as you argue in your blog post , with your wonderful Introductory Algebra example .
As you say , trying out all values would take " a hella long time " .
Still , many students understand the abstract generalization better after you give a few concrete examples .
That 's all people are asking for : solid applications of things in order to connect them to what they know and can understand , instead of sequences of meaningless rules of operations .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To summarize, I argue this: The whole point of a math class is to be abstract.
If it's not abstract, then it's not math.
If you didn't need to practice your abstraction skills, then you wouldn't need any math classes.Certainly, math from the level of Algebra onward is an exercise in abstraction.
However, that's a far cry from saying that abstraction is the goal of math education.
As the GP and others (http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1557648&amp;cid=31215548 for example) suggest, many people understand math better when they have concrete examples to work with.
This concept makes me think of a gem from Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynmann, from a chapter titled A Different Box of Tools:I had a scheme, which I still use today when somebody is explaining something that I'm trying to understand: I keep making up examples.
For instance, the mathematicians would come in with a terrific theorem, and they're all excited.
As they're telling me the conditions of the theorem, I construct something which fits all the conditions.I don't mean to knock abstraction, as it's vital to learn, as you argue in your blog post, with your wonderful Introductory Algebra example.
As you say, trying out all values would take "a hella long time".
Still, many students understand the abstract generalization better after you give a few concrete examples.
That's all people are asking for: solid applications of things in order to connect them to what they know and can understand, instead of sequences of meaningless rules of operations.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214392</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214126</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>dcollins</author>
	<datestamp>1266669180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Isn't it obvious that the fear of something will have an impact even on the simplest things where something relative to that fear is involved?"</p><p>I'll say: no, not obvious. Equally legitimate suppositions:<br>(1) It is the difficulty of the task which "will have an impact" on people's emotional state, not the other way around.<br>(2) People's fear reactions should make them more focused, attentive, and capable.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Is n't it obvious that the fear of something will have an impact even on the simplest things where something relative to that fear is involved ?
" I 'll say : no , not obvious .
Equally legitimate suppositions : ( 1 ) It is the difficulty of the task which " will have an impact " on people 's emotional state , not the other way around .
( 2 ) People 's fear reactions should make them more focused , attentive , and capable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Isn't it obvious that the fear of something will have an impact even on the simplest things where something relative to that fear is involved?
"I'll say: no, not obvious.
Equally legitimate suppositions:(1) It is the difficulty of the task which "will have an impact" on people's emotional state, not the other way around.
(2) People's fear reactions should make them more focused, attentive, and capable.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213730</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214320</id>
	<title>Re:Meh</title>
	<author>ClosedSource</author>
	<datestamp>1266670500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Psychologists are great at making excuses for everything."</p><p>Yes, it's a tough life for a psychopath these days. How can one manipulate people if everybody else is so empathetic?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Psychologists are great at making excuses for everything .
" Yes , it 's a tough life for a psychopath these days .
How can one manipulate people if everybody else is so empathetic ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Psychologists are great at making excuses for everything.
"Yes, it's a tough life for a psychopath these days.
How can one manipulate people if everybody else is so empathetic?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213844</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31218566</id>
	<title>Examples help when solving math</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266769080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I find it interesting that many people who cannot solve basic mathematical problems are able to easily solve same problems translated in money terms. Quite often, problem is the lack of abstract thinking ability.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I find it interesting that many people who can not solve basic mathematical problems are able to easily solve same problems translated in money terms .
Quite often , problem is the lack of abstract thinking ability .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I find it interesting that many people who cannot solve basic mathematical problems are able to easily solve same problems translated in money terms.
Quite often, problem is the lack of abstract thinking ability.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214100</id>
	<title>Re:Meh</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266669000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're assuming they can do the problems in the first place. The reality is if you don't understand the basics, say fundamental theorem of calc, you're going to have a hard time solving the problems, say working with taylor polynomials. Or maybe practice alone will allow you to divine the answer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're assuming they can do the problems in the first place .
The reality is if you do n't understand the basics , say fundamental theorem of calc , you 're going to have a hard time solving the problems , say working with taylor polynomials .
Or maybe practice alone will allow you to divine the answer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're assuming they can do the problems in the first place.
The reality is if you don't understand the basics, say fundamental theorem of calc, you're going to have a hard time solving the problems, say working with taylor polynomials.
Or maybe practice alone will allow you to divine the answer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213844</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31214040</id>
	<title>Re:Isn't it obvious ?</title>
	<author>DeadboltX</author>
	<datestamp>1266668400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Maybe the group that has math anxiety has it because they suck at math.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe the group that has math anxiety has it because they suck at math .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe the group that has math anxiety has it because they suck at math.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_20_2112201.31213730</parent>
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