<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_02_15_1952219</id>
	<title>'Iceman' Gets 13 Years For 2nd Hacking Offense</title>
	<author>ScuttleMonkey</author>
	<datestamp>1266221520000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="http://hughpickens.com/" rel="nofollow">Hugh Pickens</a> writes <i>"Computerworld reports that Max Ray Butler, who used the hacker pseudonym Iceman, has been sentenced to <a href="http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9156658/Criminal\_hacker\_Iceman\_gets\_13\_years">13 years in federal prison</a> for hacking into financial institutions and stealing credit card account numbers, the longest known sentence ever handed down for hacking charges. This <a href="http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s\_537532.html">isn't Butler's first time facing a federal hacking sentence</a>. After a promising start as a security consultant who did volunteer work for the FBI, Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers &mdash; including some on federal government networks &mdash; that were susceptible to a security hole. Butler served an 18-month prison term for the crime and fell on hard times after his 2002 release.  In desperation, he turned again to cybercrime and by the time of his arrest in September 2007, he had built the largest marketplace for stolen credit and debit card information in the world."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hugh Pickens writes " Computerworld reports that Max Ray Butler , who used the hacker pseudonym Iceman , has been sentenced to 13 years in federal prison for hacking into financial institutions and stealing credit card account numbers , the longest known sentence ever handed down for hacking charges .
This is n't Butler 's first time facing a federal hacking sentence .
After a promising start as a security consultant who did volunteer work for the FBI , Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers    including some on federal government networks    that were susceptible to a security hole .
Butler served an 18-month prison term for the crime and fell on hard times after his 2002 release .
In desperation , he turned again to cybercrime and by the time of his arrest in September 2007 , he had built the largest marketplace for stolen credit and debit card information in the world .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hugh Pickens writes "Computerworld reports that Max Ray Butler, who used the hacker pseudonym Iceman, has been sentenced to 13 years in federal prison for hacking into financial institutions and stealing credit card account numbers, the longest known sentence ever handed down for hacking charges.
This isn't Butler's first time facing a federal hacking sentence.
After a promising start as a security consultant who did volunteer work for the FBI, Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers — including some on federal government networks — that were susceptible to a security hole.
Butler served an 18-month prison term for the crime and fell on hard times after his 2002 release.
In desperation, he turned again to cybercrime and by the time of his arrest in September 2007, he had built the largest marketplace for stolen credit and debit card information in the world.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148248</id>
	<title>Re:For writing?</title>
	<author>ArmagedionTime</author>
	<datestamp>1266226860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>"Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers "</p><p>I hope that's for releasing/using the software rather than the simple act of writing it.</p></div><p>From TFA:

Authorities allege that during this time, Butler began to illegally hack into computer networks operated by the Air Force, NASA and the federal Defense and Energy departments. He didn't steal any information, but again left open a door so he could re-enter later, authorities said.
</p><p>
Anyone else think that an 18 month term for hacking into federal computers seems a little lenient?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers " I hope that 's for releasing/using the software rather than the simple act of writing it.From TFA : Authorities allege that during this time , Butler began to illegally hack into computer networks operated by the Air Force , NASA and the federal Defense and Energy departments .
He did n't steal any information , but again left open a door so he could re-enter later , authorities said .
Anyone else think that an 18 month term for hacking into federal computers seems a little lenient ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers "I hope that's for releasing/using the software rather than the simple act of writing it.From TFA:

Authorities allege that during this time, Butler began to illegally hack into computer networks operated by the Air Force, NASA and the federal Defense and Energy departments.
He didn't steal any information, but again left open a door so he could re-enter later, authorities said.
Anyone else think that an 18 month term for hacking into federal computers seems a little lenient?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148132</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31152186</id>
	<title>Re:Good.</title>
	<author>spidr\_mnky</author>
	<datestamp>1266255720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Right.  Blaming the criminal and the system are not mutually exclusive.  I think most of the people getting pissy about one side or the other would agree that if you steal, you're a criminal, and that the credit card and banking system is broken as hell.  I'm kind of sad that girlintraining got modded troll, though.  I liked the money in BBQ sauce imagery.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Right .
Blaming the criminal and the system are not mutually exclusive .
I think most of the people getting pissy about one side or the other would agree that if you steal , you 're a criminal , and that the credit card and banking system is broken as hell .
I 'm kind of sad that girlintraining got modded troll , though .
I liked the money in BBQ sauce imagery .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Right.
Blaming the criminal and the system are not mutually exclusive.
I think most of the people getting pissy about one side or the other would agree that if you steal, you're a criminal, and that the credit card and banking system is broken as hell.
I'm kind of sad that girlintraining got modded troll, though.
I liked the money in BBQ sauce imagery.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148366</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31151714</id>
	<title>Re:Read the Fine Print</title>
	<author>Binder</author>
	<datestamp>1266249960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I still believe it is ridiculous that murderers get shorter sentences than this.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I still believe it is ridiculous that murderers get shorter sentences than this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I still believe it is ridiculous that murderers get shorter sentences than this.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147908</id>
	<title>long term sentence</title>
	<author>girlintraining</author>
	<datestamp>1266225240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And lesson we've all learned today, class? <i>Don't crap in your own backyard</i>.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And lesson we 've all learned today , class ?
Do n't crap in your own backyard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And lesson we've all learned today, class?
Don't crap in your own backyard.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31149760</id>
	<title>Re:Read the Fine Print</title>
	<author>niknatas</author>
	<datestamp>1266233940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>12 Years, 11 months of the sentence for using the pseudonym Iceman.</p></div><p>I have some photos of what the "Iceman" may look like after his release.</p><p>http://imgur.com/KJHkT.jpg</p><p>-Cheers</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>12 Years , 11 months of the sentence for using the pseudonym Iceman.I have some photos of what the " Iceman " may look like after his release.http : //imgur.com/KJHkT.jpg-Cheers</tokentext>
<sentencetext>12 Years, 11 months of the sentence for using the pseudonym Iceman.I have some photos of what the "Iceman" may look like after his release.http://imgur.com/KJHkT.jpg-Cheers
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31150596</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266239160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's your advice? Work as a day laborer under the table? AKA: breaking the law? A real pillar of morality you are.</p><p>Tax evasion vs. Credit card fraud. Such options! Our society's criminal justice system is a model of rehabilitation!</p><p>"Cry me a river"? Big talk for an internet tough guy. Walk in his shoes for a mile before you pass judgement. I'd love to see you practice what you preach and work as a day laborer. You wouldn't last a month on $5 an hour.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's your advice ?
Work as a day laborer under the table ?
AKA : breaking the law ?
A real pillar of morality you are.Tax evasion vs. Credit card fraud .
Such options !
Our society 's criminal justice system is a model of rehabilitation !
" Cry me a river " ?
Big talk for an internet tough guy .
Walk in his shoes for a mile before you pass judgement .
I 'd love to see you practice what you preach and work as a day laborer .
You would n't last a month on $ 5 an hour .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's your advice?
Work as a day laborer under the table?
AKA: breaking the law?
A real pillar of morality you are.Tax evasion vs. Credit card fraud.
Such options!
Our society's criminal justice system is a model of rehabilitation!
"Cry me a river"?
Big talk for an internet tough guy.
Walk in his shoes for a mile before you pass judgement.
I'd love to see you practice what you preach and work as a day laborer.
You wouldn't last a month on $5 an hour.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148222</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147942</id>
	<title>Read the Fine Print</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266225360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>12 Years, 11 months of the sentence for using the pseudonym Iceman.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>12 Years , 11 months of the sentence for using the pseudonym Iceman .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>12 Years, 11 months of the sentence for using the pseudonym Iceman.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31152628</id>
	<title>Re:Read the Fine Print</title>
	<author>azenpunk</author>
	<datestamp>1266260520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I hope i don't get his vanity license plate by mistake.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I hope i do n't get his vanity license plate by mistake .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hope i don't get his vanity license plate by mistake.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31149614</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148372</id>
	<title>out of desperation?</title>
	<author>methuselah</author>
	<datestamp>1266227460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>what you sympathize with this turd? so i suppose you luv all the pharmaceutical and phallus expansion spam you get in your mailbox every day too? I have had some hard times but, have never gotten so desperate that I thought that I was entitled to do whatever I felt was the easiest way to steal money from someone else. if i had resorted to such action i sure wouldn't want anyone's sympathy and my view of anyone that did sympathize wouldn't be that they were compassionate, it would be what a sucker and it is too bad i didn't steal from that chump. pathetic!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>what you sympathize with this turd ?
so i suppose you luv all the pharmaceutical and phallus expansion spam you get in your mailbox every day too ?
I have had some hard times but , have never gotten so desperate that I thought that I was entitled to do whatever I felt was the easiest way to steal money from someone else .
if i had resorted to such action i sure would n't want anyone 's sympathy and my view of anyone that did sympathize would n't be that they were compassionate , it would be what a sucker and it is too bad i did n't steal from that chump .
pathetic !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>what you sympathize with this turd?
so i suppose you luv all the pharmaceutical and phallus expansion spam you get in your mailbox every day too?
I have had some hard times but, have never gotten so desperate that I thought that I was entitled to do whatever I felt was the easiest way to steal money from someone else.
if i had resorted to such action i sure wouldn't want anyone's sympathy and my view of anyone that did sympathize wouldn't be that they were compassionate, it would be what a sucker and it is too bad i didn't steal from that chump.
pathetic!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31149692</id>
	<title>Re:long term sentence</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266233520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And the </p><p><div class="quote"><p>After a promising start as a security consultant who did volunteer work for the FBI, Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers &mdash; including some on federal government networks</p></div><p> will hopefully teach the DHS and some of those (in)security firms to not to put children in a room filled with sex hungry paedophiles, metaphorically speaking. Speaking of which, I wonder whether the FBI has done that literally sometimes, or would that act belong to the wonderful world of Imaginationland..</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And the After a promising start as a security consultant who did volunteer work for the FBI , Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers    including some on federal government networks will hopefully teach the DHS and some of those ( in ) security firms to not to put children in a room filled with sex hungry paedophiles , metaphorically speaking .
Speaking of which , I wonder whether the FBI has done that literally sometimes , or would that act belong to the wonderful world of Imaginationland. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And the After a promising start as a security consultant who did volunteer work for the FBI, Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers — including some on federal government networks will hopefully teach the DHS and some of those (in)security firms to not to put children in a room filled with sex hungry paedophiles, metaphorically speaking.
Speaking of which, I wonder whether the FBI has done that literally sometimes, or would that act belong to the wonderful world of Imaginationland..
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31149614</id>
	<title>Re:Read the Fine Print</title>
	<author>gad\_zuki!</author>
	<datestamp>1266233280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;12 Years, 11 months of the sentence for using the pseudonym Iceman.</p><p>And after 12 years, 11 months he'll be using the pseudonym Assman.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; 12 Years , 11 months of the sentence for using the pseudonym Iceman.And after 12 years , 11 months he 'll be using the pseudonym Assman .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;12 Years, 11 months of the sentence for using the pseudonym Iceman.And after 12 years, 11 months he'll be using the pseudonym Assman.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148222</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>Peter Simpson</author>
	<datestamp>1266226800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I couldn't get work," he wrote. In desperation, he turned again to cybercrime."</p><p>Cry me a river.</p><p>Try standing out in front of Lowe's or Home Depot on a Saturday morning.  It seems to work for others.</p><p>There's plenty of work for ex-cons who want to work.  He just took the easy way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I could n't get work , " he wrote .
In desperation , he turned again to cybercrime .
" Cry me a river.Try standing out in front of Lowe 's or Home Depot on a Saturday morning .
It seems to work for others.There 's plenty of work for ex-cons who want to work .
He just took the easy way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I couldn't get work," he wrote.
In desperation, he turned again to cybercrime.
"Cry me a river.Try standing out in front of Lowe's or Home Depot on a Saturday morning.
It seems to work for others.There's plenty of work for ex-cons who want to work.
He just took the easy way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31160496</id>
	<title>Re:Good.</title>
	<author>Rakarra</author>
	<datestamp>1266316080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><blockquote><div><p>If you really want to reduce fraud, make the banks financially responsible for it.</p></div></blockquote><p>And make the rape victims responsible. And the carjacking victims. Yeah man!</p></div><p>Oh come now, those are terrible comparisons. The banks are directly responsible for the amount of security and they are financially benefiting from a system with lax security.</p><p>The banks are not the ones who get victimized here, the merchants are. Sure there are fraudulent merchants who sell numbers, but I think that number pails in comparison to the merchants who unknowingly approve transactions on stolen cards/numbers. The system is not set up to be secure, and there's little that the merchants can do about that.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you really want to reduce fraud , make the banks financially responsible for it.And make the rape victims responsible .
And the carjacking victims .
Yeah man ! Oh come now , those are terrible comparisons .
The banks are directly responsible for the amount of security and they are financially benefiting from a system with lax security.The banks are not the ones who get victimized here , the merchants are .
Sure there are fraudulent merchants who sell numbers , but I think that number pails in comparison to the merchants who unknowingly approve transactions on stolen cards/numbers .
The system is not set up to be secure , and there 's little that the merchants can do about that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you really want to reduce fraud, make the banks financially responsible for it.And make the rape victims responsible.
And the carjacking victims.
Yeah man!Oh come now, those are terrible comparisons.
The banks are directly responsible for the amount of security and they are financially benefiting from a system with lax security.The banks are not the ones who get victimized here, the merchants are.
Sure there are fraudulent merchants who sell numbers, but I think that number pails in comparison to the merchants who unknowingly approve transactions on stolen cards/numbers.
The system is not set up to be secure, and there's little that the merchants can do about that.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31150042</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148438</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>MightyMartian</author>
	<datestamp>1266227700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I might even buy this if it was a sort of "stealing bread to survive" kind of thing, just doing enough online hacking to put a roof over his head and food in his belly.  But even if that's how this second dip into the world of mass theft began, any notion that this was just a form of employment kind of gets disproven by the sheer size of what he did.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I might even buy this if it was a sort of " stealing bread to survive " kind of thing , just doing enough online hacking to put a roof over his head and food in his belly .
But even if that 's how this second dip into the world of mass theft began , any notion that this was just a form of employment kind of gets disproven by the sheer size of what he did .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I might even buy this if it was a sort of "stealing bread to survive" kind of thing, just doing enough online hacking to put a roof over his head and food in his belly.
But even if that's how this second dip into the world of mass theft began, any notion that this was just a form of employment kind of gets disproven by the sheer size of what he did.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148226</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31160426</id>
	<title>Re:Good.</title>
	<author>Rakarra</author>
	<datestamp>1266315720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What actually happens is that increased security can cause people to use their cards less, resulting in lower revenue to them in the form of transaction fees. That's why if you go to a fast food place or the movies, you don't even need to sign your receipt anymore, if the total purchase is below a certain value. Increased convenience = increased use, and they figure that they can make more money out of this increased use than they are losing to fraud.</p></div><p>Mods: Please don't let this languish at the AC default of 0. This is possibly the most important point raised in this story -- the banks have a vested interest in keeping security lax, because less security means more credit card use; and yet they aren't liable for the security breaches. It's sortof like the recent housing market bust when financial institutions could offer high-risk mortgages and then sell them off as low-risk mortgages. Any system where an institution is rewarded when risky behavior pays off but does not have to suffer the consequences of the risk is prone to failure.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What actually happens is that increased security can cause people to use their cards less , resulting in lower revenue to them in the form of transaction fees .
That 's why if you go to a fast food place or the movies , you do n't even need to sign your receipt anymore , if the total purchase is below a certain value .
Increased convenience = increased use , and they figure that they can make more money out of this increased use than they are losing to fraud.Mods : Please do n't let this languish at the AC default of 0 .
This is possibly the most important point raised in this story -- the banks have a vested interest in keeping security lax , because less security means more credit card use ; and yet they are n't liable for the security breaches .
It 's sortof like the recent housing market bust when financial institutions could offer high-risk mortgages and then sell them off as low-risk mortgages .
Any system where an institution is rewarded when risky behavior pays off but does not have to suffer the consequences of the risk is prone to failure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What actually happens is that increased security can cause people to use their cards less, resulting in lower revenue to them in the form of transaction fees.
That's why if you go to a fast food place or the movies, you don't even need to sign your receipt anymore, if the total purchase is below a certain value.
Increased convenience = increased use, and they figure that they can make more money out of this increased use than they are losing to fraud.Mods: Please don't let this languish at the AC default of 0.
This is possibly the most important point raised in this story -- the banks have a vested interest in keeping security lax, because less security means more credit card use; and yet they aren't liable for the security breaches.
It's sortof like the recent housing market bust when financial institutions could offer high-risk mortgages and then sell them off as low-risk mortgages.
Any system where an institution is rewarded when risky behavior pays off but does not have to suffer the consequences of the risk is prone to failure.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31149160</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31153822</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266322140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you're self-employed, you fill out your own W2 forms and are responsible for giving the money to the government.</p><p>Just because you're a day laborer doesn't mean you have to evade taxes, unless you intend to.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 're self-employed , you fill out your own W2 forms and are responsible for giving the money to the government.Just because you 're a day laborer does n't mean you have to evade taxes , unless you intend to .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you're self-employed, you fill out your own W2 forms and are responsible for giving the money to the government.Just because you're a day laborer doesn't mean you have to evade taxes, unless you intend to.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31150596</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148072</id>
	<title>Interesting.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266226020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>"It is a shame that someone with so much ability chose to use it in a manner that hurt many people," Dembosky said in an e-mail message."</i> <br> <br>
That in light of
<br> <br> <i>
"Butler served an 18-month prison term for the crime and fell on hard times after his 2002 release, he said in a sentencing memorandum filed Thursday. "I was homeless, staying on a friends couch. I couldn't get work," he wrote. In desperation, he turned again to cybercrime."</i>
<br> <br>
I'm not saying he's right,  but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" It is a shame that someone with so much ability chose to use it in a manner that hurt many people , " Dembosky said in an e-mail message .
" That in light of " Butler served an 18-month prison term for the crime and fell on hard times after his 2002 release , he said in a sentencing memorandum filed Thursday .
" I was homeless , staying on a friends couch .
I could n't get work , " he wrote .
In desperation , he turned again to cybercrime .
" I 'm not saying he 's right , but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"It is a shame that someone with so much ability chose to use it in a manner that hurt many people," Dembosky said in an e-mail message.
"  
That in light of
  
"Butler served an 18-month prison term for the crime and fell on hard times after his 2002 release, he said in a sentencing memorandum filed Thursday.
"I was homeless, staying on a friends couch.
I couldn't get work," he wrote.
In desperation, he turned again to cybercrime.
"
 
I'm not saying he's right,  but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31150042</id>
	<title>Re:Good.</title>
	<author>Obfuscant</author>
	<datestamp>1266235440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>If you really want to reduce fraud, make the banks financially responsible for it.</i> <p>
And make the rape victims responsible. And the carjacking victims. Yeah man!</p><p>
<i>We should absolutely punish those who take unfair advantage of the system. But if we really want results, we should fix the system.</i> </p><p>
What would be the results of "fixing the system"? If you make the banks eat every penny of fraud, you'll wind up with a system that is much more inconvenient for the honest users. You might as well not have a credit card.</p><p>
Here's an example. I was travelling. As in I was not at home. I made a charge in Holland. VISA called me at home, where I wasn't, and left a vague message saying "call us". I went on to England and made some more charges. I got home and "got the message". I called VISA. They asked me if I had made the charge in Holland. I said yes. "No problem". Two days later, another "call us message". I did. "Did you make this charge in Holland?" Yes. "Did you make this charge in England?" Yes. "No problem."</p><p>
A few days later, yet another "call us" message. I did. Again, "did you make this charge in Holland?" Yes. Yes. I asked why I was repeatedly being called about this, and finally someone forwarded me to the fraud department. "Those people are morons" (paraphrasing). "Your card was compromised in Holland, we are cancelling it and sending you a new one."</p><p>
Well, that's very nice, I said, but I'm leaving on a trip tomorrow at 6AM and I need that card to pay for things. Why didn't you do this the first time I called? "Those people are morons." (paraphrased)</p><p>
So I get my new card and realize that my webhosting is paid on the old one. I've cut up the old one and destroyed it, and I'm not near my vast files filled with past statements, but I know I need to get the account data changed. "I need to change the account for my billing," I say. "What's the old account number?" "I dunno, I don't have that card anymore." "We can't change accounts without the old number." Sigh.</p><p>
So, no, <em>I</em> don't think the system should be fixed because the system becomes unusable when the security becomes tight. I LIKE being able to order stuff over the phone and have it shipped to my work instead of billing address (because of the security issue of UPS just dropping stuff on my front step with no signature). I sometimes NEED to be able to buy stuff with my personal card and have it delivered to odd places around the world so I can get my work done when I'm there.</p><p>
Security and convenience is a trade-off. You want to err on the side of security. Most people want to err on the side of convenience.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you really want to reduce fraud , make the banks financially responsible for it .
And make the rape victims responsible .
And the carjacking victims .
Yeah man !
We should absolutely punish those who take unfair advantage of the system .
But if we really want results , we should fix the system .
What would be the results of " fixing the system " ?
If you make the banks eat every penny of fraud , you 'll wind up with a system that is much more inconvenient for the honest users .
You might as well not have a credit card .
Here 's an example .
I was travelling .
As in I was not at home .
I made a charge in Holland .
VISA called me at home , where I was n't , and left a vague message saying " call us " .
I went on to England and made some more charges .
I got home and " got the message " .
I called VISA .
They asked me if I had made the charge in Holland .
I said yes .
" No problem " .
Two days later , another " call us message " .
I did .
" Did you make this charge in Holland ?
" Yes .
" Did you make this charge in England ?
" Yes .
" No problem .
" A few days later , yet another " call us " message .
I did .
Again , " did you make this charge in Holland ?
" Yes .
Yes. I asked why I was repeatedly being called about this , and finally someone forwarded me to the fraud department .
" Those people are morons " ( paraphrasing ) .
" Your card was compromised in Holland , we are cancelling it and sending you a new one .
" Well , that 's very nice , I said , but I 'm leaving on a trip tomorrow at 6AM and I need that card to pay for things .
Why did n't you do this the first time I called ?
" Those people are morons .
" ( paraphrased ) So I get my new card and realize that my webhosting is paid on the old one .
I 've cut up the old one and destroyed it , and I 'm not near my vast files filled with past statements , but I know I need to get the account data changed .
" I need to change the account for my billing , " I say .
" What 's the old account number ?
" " I dunno , I do n't have that card anymore .
" " We ca n't change accounts without the old number .
" Sigh .
So , no , I do n't think the system should be fixed because the system becomes unusable when the security becomes tight .
I LIKE being able to order stuff over the phone and have it shipped to my work instead of billing address ( because of the security issue of UPS just dropping stuff on my front step with no signature ) .
I sometimes NEED to be able to buy stuff with my personal card and have it delivered to odd places around the world so I can get my work done when I 'm there .
Security and convenience is a trade-off .
You want to err on the side of security .
Most people want to err on the side of convenience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you really want to reduce fraud, make the banks financially responsible for it.
And make the rape victims responsible.
And the carjacking victims.
Yeah man!
We should absolutely punish those who take unfair advantage of the system.
But if we really want results, we should fix the system.
What would be the results of "fixing the system"?
If you make the banks eat every penny of fraud, you'll wind up with a system that is much more inconvenient for the honest users.
You might as well not have a credit card.
Here's an example.
I was travelling.
As in I was not at home.
I made a charge in Holland.
VISA called me at home, where I wasn't, and left a vague message saying "call us".
I went on to England and made some more charges.
I got home and "got the message".
I called VISA.
They asked me if I had made the charge in Holland.
I said yes.
"No problem".
Two days later, another "call us message".
I did.
"Did you make this charge in Holland?
" Yes.
"Did you make this charge in England?
" Yes.
"No problem.
"
A few days later, yet another "call us" message.
I did.
Again, "did you make this charge in Holland?
" Yes.
Yes. I asked why I was repeatedly being called about this, and finally someone forwarded me to the fraud department.
"Those people are morons" (paraphrasing).
"Your card was compromised in Holland, we are cancelling it and sending you a new one.
"
Well, that's very nice, I said, but I'm leaving on a trip tomorrow at 6AM and I need that card to pay for things.
Why didn't you do this the first time I called?
"Those people are morons.
" (paraphrased)
So I get my new card and realize that my webhosting is paid on the old one.
I've cut up the old one and destroyed it, and I'm not near my vast files filled with past statements, but I know I need to get the account data changed.
"I need to change the account for my billing," I say.
"What's the old account number?
" "I dunno, I don't have that card anymore.
" "We can't change accounts without the old number.
" Sigh.
So, no, I don't think the system should be fixed because the system becomes unusable when the security becomes tight.
I LIKE being able to order stuff over the phone and have it shipped to my work instead of billing address (because of the security issue of UPS just dropping stuff on my front step with no signature).
I sometimes NEED to be able to buy stuff with my personal card and have it delivered to odd places around the world so I can get my work done when I'm there.
Security and convenience is a trade-off.
You want to err on the side of security.
Most people want to err on the side of convenience.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148366</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148212</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>elnyka</author>
	<datestamp>1266226740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> <i>"It is a shame that someone with so much ability chose to use it in a manner that hurt many people," Dembosky said in an e-mail message."</i>


That in light of


 <i>
"Butler served an 18-month prison term for the crime and fell on hard times after his 2002 release, he said in a sentencing memorandum filed Thursday. "I was homeless, staying on a friends couch. I couldn't get work," he wrote. In desperation, he turned again to cybercrime."</i>



I'm not saying he's right,  but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.</p></div><p>What type of work was he trying to get? Not that it is easy to find work as an ex-con, but it isn't impossible either (so long as the person lowers his expectations... read <i>flipping burguers</i>.) That is part of the cross an ex-con got to carry, right or wrong.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" It is a shame that someone with so much ability chose to use it in a manner that hurt many people , " Dembosky said in an e-mail message .
" That in light of " Butler served an 18-month prison term for the crime and fell on hard times after his 2002 release , he said in a sentencing memorandum filed Thursday .
" I was homeless , staying on a friends couch .
I could n't get work , " he wrote .
In desperation , he turned again to cybercrime .
" I 'm not saying he 's right , but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.What type of work was he trying to get ?
Not that it is easy to find work as an ex-con , but it is n't impossible either ( so long as the person lowers his expectations... read flipping burguers .
) That is part of the cross an ex-con got to carry , right or wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> "It is a shame that someone with so much ability chose to use it in a manner that hurt many people," Dembosky said in an e-mail message.
"


That in light of


 
"Butler served an 18-month prison term for the crime and fell on hard times after his 2002 release, he said in a sentencing memorandum filed Thursday.
"I was homeless, staying on a friends couch.
I couldn't get work," he wrote.
In desperation, he turned again to cybercrime.
"



I'm not saying he's right,  but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.What type of work was he trying to get?
Not that it is easy to find work as an ex-con, but it isn't impossible either (so long as the person lowers his expectations... read flipping burguers.
) That is part of the cross an ex-con got to carry, right or wrong.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148358</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>religious freak</author>
	<datestamp>1266227400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'll bet if he tried hard enough he could've gotten a small employer to understand his situation, especially if he has the coding skills he appears to have.  Over the course of years/decades he could've rebuilt his reputation.  A brilliant coder is hard enough to find, let alone one that has to work for relative peanuts.  He could've found a job, it just wouldn't have been paying him what he was "worth".  <br> <br>
He made his choice twice now... throw him away.  <br>(Yeah, it's cold, but he's stealing MY credit card numbers!!)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll bet if he tried hard enough he could 've gotten a small employer to understand his situation , especially if he has the coding skills he appears to have .
Over the course of years/decades he could 've rebuilt his reputation .
A brilliant coder is hard enough to find , let alone one that has to work for relative peanuts .
He could 've found a job , it just would n't have been paying him what he was " worth " .
He made his choice twice now... throw him away .
( Yeah , it 's cold , but he 's stealing MY credit card numbers ! !
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll bet if he tried hard enough he could've gotten a small employer to understand his situation, especially if he has the coding skills he appears to have.
Over the course of years/decades he could've rebuilt his reputation.
A brilliant coder is hard enough to find, let alone one that has to work for relative peanuts.
He could've found a job, it just wouldn't have been paying him what he was "worth".
He made his choice twice now... throw him away.
(Yeah, it's cold, but he's stealing MY credit card numbers!!
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31149262</id>
	<title>but but obama wants hackers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266231840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>how can he have any if they put em all in in jail<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..aw shucks man guess he was lying.....<br>change...in obama's pocket</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>how can he have any if they put em all in in jail ..aw shucks man guess he was lying.....change...in obama 's pocket</tokentext>
<sentencetext>how can he have any if they put em all in in jail ..aw shucks man guess he was lying.....change...in obama's pocket</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31149416</id>
	<title>Re:Prison is bullshit</title>
	<author>Jeng</author>
	<datestamp>1266232380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You were doing so good......then you wrote that second paragraph.</p><p>I'm guessing you went with death penalty because you also could not come up with a better system of punishment for law offenders.</p><p>Extending probation to more crimes would probably be a good start, along with lots and lots of mandatory life skill classes.</p><p>Prison does nobody any good.  If someone positively has to be removed from society then we should not be locking them up with others just like them and hoping that they will be better when they get out.  If someone is so fucked up that they have to be removed from society we should try to help them be better people, and if we fail at that THEN we kill them.</p><p>You needed to add a few steps.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You were doing so good......then you wrote that second paragraph.I 'm guessing you went with death penalty because you also could not come up with a better system of punishment for law offenders.Extending probation to more crimes would probably be a good start , along with lots and lots of mandatory life skill classes.Prison does nobody any good .
If someone positively has to be removed from society then we should not be locking them up with others just like them and hoping that they will be better when they get out .
If someone is so fucked up that they have to be removed from society we should try to help them be better people , and if we fail at that THEN we kill them.You needed to add a few steps .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You were doing so good......then you wrote that second paragraph.I'm guessing you went with death penalty because you also could not come up with a better system of punishment for law offenders.Extending probation to more crimes would probably be a good start, along with lots and lots of mandatory life skill classes.Prison does nobody any good.
If someone positively has to be removed from society then we should not be locking them up with others just like them and hoping that they will be better when they get out.
If someone is so fucked up that they have to be removed from society we should try to help them be better people, and if we fail at that THEN we kill them.You needed to add a few steps.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148446</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148442</id>
	<title>No sympathy.</title>
	<author>Beelzebud</author>
	<datestamp>1266227760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>No sympathy from me.  Why should I feel any more sorry for him than someone that snatches purses, or robs liquor stores?</htmltext>
<tokenext>No sympathy from me .
Why should I feel any more sorry for him than someone that snatches purses , or robs liquor stores ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No sympathy from me.
Why should I feel any more sorry for him than someone that snatches purses, or robs liquor stores?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31152704</id>
	<title>Re:Read the Fine Print</title>
	<author>precariousgray</author>
	<datestamp>1266261300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>At first, I thought they were referring to whom I consider to be <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard\_Kuklinski" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">the real Iceman</a> [wikipedia.org].</htmltext>
<tokenext>At first , I thought they were referring to whom I consider to be the real Iceman [ wikipedia.org ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At first, I thought they were referring to whom I consider to be the real Iceman [wikipedia.org].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148446</id>
	<title>Prison is bullshit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266227820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The current so-called "justice" system is so pro-criminal it's sickening. About 70\% of criminals released from prison end up going back to crime within 3 years (and that's only including the ones that get caught, of course). The prison system is a failure; its goal (curing psychopathy) is impossible.</p><p>All crimes which currently earn a prison sentence should earn the death penalty. And I don't mean the moronic way the death penalty is currently done, where there's so much red tape and bullshit appeals that most of them die of natural causes first. There should be a guillotine right there in the courtroom. A piece of scum like this guy shouldn't be costing society any more than he already has...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The current so-called " justice " system is so pro-criminal it 's sickening .
About 70 \ % of criminals released from prison end up going back to crime within 3 years ( and that 's only including the ones that get caught , of course ) .
The prison system is a failure ; its goal ( curing psychopathy ) is impossible.All crimes which currently earn a prison sentence should earn the death penalty .
And I do n't mean the moronic way the death penalty is currently done , where there 's so much red tape and bullshit appeals that most of them die of natural causes first .
There should be a guillotine right there in the courtroom .
A piece of scum like this guy should n't be costing society any more than he already has.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The current so-called "justice" system is so pro-criminal it's sickening.
About 70\% of criminals released from prison end up going back to crime within 3 years (and that's only including the ones that get caught, of course).
The prison system is a failure; its goal (curing psychopathy) is impossible.All crimes which currently earn a prison sentence should earn the death penalty.
And I don't mean the moronic way the death penalty is currently done, where there's so much red tape and bullshit appeals that most of them die of natural causes first.
There should be a guillotine right there in the courtroom.
A piece of scum like this guy shouldn't be costing society any more than he already has...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148478</id>
	<title>Re:long term sentence</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266227940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He was sloppy and got greedy.   THAT is how these guys get caught.</p><p>And honestly that is a n00b hacker mistake.</p><p>Being taken down by a newbie mistake, that's harder on him than the 13 years in "you're my little bitch" prison.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He was sloppy and got greedy .
THAT is how these guys get caught.And honestly that is a n00b hacker mistake.Being taken down by a newbie mistake , that 's harder on him than the 13 years in " you 're my little bitch " prison .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He was sloppy and got greedy.
THAT is how these guys get caught.And honestly that is a n00b hacker mistake.Being taken down by a newbie mistake, that's harder on him than the 13 years in "you're my little bitch" prison.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31149818</id>
	<title>Re:He did it to himself.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266234240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> <i>I'm not saying he's right, but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.</i> </p><p>His first conviction was for criminally violating the trust of his employer and working in direct contravention to his employer's interests and mission.  His skills are such that to be employed effectively he must be trusted.</p><p>Oops!</p><p>He did it to himself.  No employment for him.  (He'd have been lucky to find burgers to flip.)</p><p>So then he starts a business.  High corporate positions may have been barred to him by his first conviction, but a lot of smaller stuff still was open.  Yet what does he chose?  Cybercrime.</p><p>Oops!</p><p>When he finally gets out from THIS one he'll be watched so closely that even organized crime is unlikely to work with him.</p></div><p>Dude, will he have relevant skills after he serves his sentence?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not saying he 's right , but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con .
His first conviction was for criminally violating the trust of his employer and working in direct contravention to his employer 's interests and mission .
His skills are such that to be employed effectively he must be trusted.Oops ! He did it to himself .
No employment for him .
( He 'd have been lucky to find burgers to flip .
) So then he starts a business .
High corporate positions may have been barred to him by his first conviction , but a lot of smaller stuff still was open .
Yet what does he chose ?
Cybercrime.Oops ! When he finally gets out from THIS one he 'll be watched so closely that even organized crime is unlikely to work with him.Dude , will he have relevant skills after he serves his sentence ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I'm not saying he's right, but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.
His first conviction was for criminally violating the trust of his employer and working in direct contravention to his employer's interests and mission.
His skills are such that to be employed effectively he must be trusted.Oops!He did it to himself.
No employment for him.
(He'd have been lucky to find burgers to flip.
)So then he starts a business.
High corporate positions may have been barred to him by his first conviction, but a lot of smaller stuff still was open.
Yet what does he chose?
Cybercrime.Oops!When he finally gets out from THIS one he'll be watched so closely that even organized crime is unlikely to work with him.Dude, will he have relevant skills after he serves his sentence?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148198</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148422</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>Jeng</author>
	<datestamp>1266227700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is always manual labor jobs.</p><p>As long as its not violent or involve children most manual labor jobs are ok with some spots on your record.</p><p>If you can tough it out for five years then you can start getting back into office jobs.</p><p>By the time that he got arrested if he had stayed clean he could have started to rebuild his life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is always manual labor jobs.As long as its not violent or involve children most manual labor jobs are ok with some spots on your record.If you can tough it out for five years then you can start getting back into office jobs.By the time that he got arrested if he had stayed clean he could have started to rebuild his life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is always manual labor jobs.As long as its not violent or involve children most manual labor jobs are ok with some spots on your record.If you can tough it out for five years then you can start getting back into office jobs.By the time that he got arrested if he had stayed clean he could have started to rebuild his life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148164</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31151296</id>
	<title>There's plenty of incentive to improve</title>
	<author>Crazy Taco</author>
	<datestamp>1266245700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>As it is, there's little incentive for the industry to increase their security.</p></div></blockquote><p>For some reason, everyone loves to ignore the reputation factor when talking about economics and capitalism. Most screwups in business are far more expensive due to reputation damage than they are in direct costs. If a bank has a major incident in which they lose the credit card numbers of thousands of consumers, that can really hurt their reputation, and people are less likely to sign with that bank. That's where banks really feel the pain, and why they do have an incentive to keep security strong. </p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As it is , there 's little incentive for the industry to increase their security.For some reason , everyone loves to ignore the reputation factor when talking about economics and capitalism .
Most screwups in business are far more expensive due to reputation damage than they are in direct costs .
If a bank has a major incident in which they lose the credit card numbers of thousands of consumers , that can really hurt their reputation , and people are less likely to sign with that bank .
That 's where banks really feel the pain , and why they do have an incentive to keep security strong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As it is, there's little incentive for the industry to increase their security.For some reason, everyone loves to ignore the reputation factor when talking about economics and capitalism.
Most screwups in business are far more expensive due to reputation damage than they are in direct costs.
If a bank has a major incident in which they lose the credit card numbers of thousands of consumers, that can really hurt their reputation, and people are less likely to sign with that bank.
That's where banks really feel the pain, and why they do have an incentive to keep security strong. 
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148366</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147918</id>
	<title>Looks like Iceman is being put on ice...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266225300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Looks like Iceman is being put on ice for 13 years.  It's well-deserved, IMO.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Looks like Iceman is being put on ice for 13 years .
It 's well-deserved , IMO .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Looks like Iceman is being put on ice for 13 years.
It's well-deserved, IMO.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147962</id>
	<title>Good.</title>
	<author>AnotherUsername</author>
	<datestamp>1266225480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I hope that he has to serve the full sentence, and doesn't get out on parole.  Credit card fraud is not fun.  I can only hope that more people convicted of credit card fraud receive sentences like this.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I hope that he has to serve the full sentence , and does n't get out on parole .
Credit card fraud is not fun .
I can only hope that more people convicted of credit card fraud receive sentences like this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hope that he has to serve the full sentence, and doesn't get out on parole.
Credit card fraud is not fun.
I can only hope that more people convicted of credit card fraud receive sentences like this.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31153010</id>
	<title>Re:Read the Fine Print</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266352320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and after the last one month he'll be... Asthma?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and after the last one month he 'll be... Asthma ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and after the last one month he'll be... Asthma?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31149614</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148346</id>
	<title>Good for the FBI</title>
	<author>tobiah</author>
	<datestamp>1266227400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is the kind of investigation and prosecution they should be doing a lot more of. While we generally refer to it as spam, a good bit of it is attempted robbery. It's pretty brazen behavior; someone trying to rob me every day, every few minutes. As our national criminal investigative body, the FBI is the appropriate department to pursue these crimes. They've been a little slow to adapt, but I'm glad to see the FBI can catch someone at this.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is the kind of investigation and prosecution they should be doing a lot more of .
While we generally refer to it as spam , a good bit of it is attempted robbery .
It 's pretty brazen behavior ; someone trying to rob me every day , every few minutes .
As our national criminal investigative body , the FBI is the appropriate department to pursue these crimes .
They 've been a little slow to adapt , but I 'm glad to see the FBI can catch someone at this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is the kind of investigation and prosecution they should be doing a lot more of.
While we generally refer to it as spam, a good bit of it is attempted robbery.
It's pretty brazen behavior; someone trying to rob me every day, every few minutes.
As our national criminal investigative body, the FBI is the appropriate department to pursue these crimes.
They've been a little slow to adapt, but I'm glad to see the FBI can catch someone at this.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148758</id>
	<title>Re:long term sentence</title>
	<author>kestasjk</author>
	<datestamp>1266229320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sucks that he couldn't put his abilities to better use.. Too bad for him</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sucks that he could n't put his abilities to better use.. Too bad for him</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sucks that he couldn't put his abilities to better use.. Too bad for him</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148408</id>
	<title>Re:long term sentence</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266227640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bummer</p><p>--signed Crash Override</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bummer--signed Crash Override</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bummer--signed Crash Override</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148326</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266227280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One thing about developing a bad reputation like this is that afterward you are completely dependent on the charity of others to help sort it out.  That's the way it should be.  If you see someone else doing the exact opposite of what you did, there is some hope that you might understand the consequences of your own actions repent from them.  Of course, finding someone in the position to help you out, with the heart to do so, can be really tough.  I don't like they idea that we should atomically give people a second change once they've done something like this.  I feel like they will look back and draw the wrong conclusion, then they will end up repeating their offense for sure.  You see this a lot when a spouse is unfaithful and the other graciously forgives them.</p><p>On the other hand, if we didn't waste so much on fancy houses and nice cars and things like that, there might be more room for the kind of loving charity that really could have made a difference here (although he was living on a friends couch, so he was already better off than many who do not turn to crime, in terms of material wealth).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One thing about developing a bad reputation like this is that afterward you are completely dependent on the charity of others to help sort it out .
That 's the way it should be .
If you see someone else doing the exact opposite of what you did , there is some hope that you might understand the consequences of your own actions repent from them .
Of course , finding someone in the position to help you out , with the heart to do so , can be really tough .
I do n't like they idea that we should atomically give people a second change once they 've done something like this .
I feel like they will look back and draw the wrong conclusion , then they will end up repeating their offense for sure .
You see this a lot when a spouse is unfaithful and the other graciously forgives them.On the other hand , if we did n't waste so much on fancy houses and nice cars and things like that , there might be more room for the kind of loving charity that really could have made a difference here ( although he was living on a friends couch , so he was already better off than many who do not turn to crime , in terms of material wealth ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One thing about developing a bad reputation like this is that afterward you are completely dependent on the charity of others to help sort it out.
That's the way it should be.
If you see someone else doing the exact opposite of what you did, there is some hope that you might understand the consequences of your own actions repent from them.
Of course, finding someone in the position to help you out, with the heart to do so, can be really tough.
I don't like they idea that we should atomically give people a second change once they've done something like this.
I feel like they will look back and draw the wrong conclusion, then they will end up repeating their offense for sure.
You see this a lot when a spouse is unfaithful and the other graciously forgives them.On the other hand, if we didn't waste so much on fancy houses and nice cars and things like that, there might be more room for the kind of loving charity that really could have made a difference here (although he was living on a friends couch, so he was already better off than many who do not turn to crime, in terms of material wealth).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148180</id>
	<title>Doesn't make a lot of sense.</title>
	<author>mosb1000</author>
	<datestamp>1266226560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Butler served an 18-month prison term for the crime and fell on hard times after his 2002 release, he said in a sentencing memorandum filed Thursday. "I was homeless, staying on a friends couch. I couldn't get work," he wrote. In desperation, he turned again to cybercrime."</p></div></blockquote><p>Well yeah, that makes sense, seeing as it worked so well the first time. .<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Butler served an 18-month prison term for the crime and fell on hard times after his 2002 release , he said in a sentencing memorandum filed Thursday .
" I was homeless , staying on a friends couch .
I could n't get work , " he wrote .
In desperation , he turned again to cybercrime .
" Well yeah , that makes sense , seeing as it worked so well the first time .
. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Butler served an 18-month prison term for the crime and fell on hard times after his 2002 release, he said in a sentencing memorandum filed Thursday.
"I was homeless, staying on a friends couch.
I couldn't get work," he wrote.
In desperation, he turned again to cybercrime.
"Well yeah, that makes sense, seeing as it worked so well the first time.
. .
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31150888</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>dissy</author>
	<datestamp>1266241500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'm not saying he's right, but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.</p></div><p>And that is why in the USA, even a 2 week sentence to jail is identical to a life sentence in prison, because a 2 week stay in jail will ruin all of the remaining years of your life (by design)</p><p>When you are starving and can't get money legally because the government set it up that way, its obvious what one must do to survive.</p><p>Personally I do blame the government for creating directly so much crime that wouldn't happen otherwise.<br>You see much less of this problem in countries with sane punishments for the harm done.</p><p>Jail and prison are supposed to be to keep dangerous people away from a functional society.</p><p>Once you start putting anyone and everyone in there with them, from jay walkers to people that just pissed off a cop legally, then any sense of fairness in law is ruined, and you get the outcome we have now.</p><p>Just remember, its all by design, proven by the fact our government is well aware of other systems that work much better in that sense, yet the same people claim our current system is perfect.  For their goals, I can only assume they are speaking truthfully.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not saying he 's right , but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.And that is why in the USA , even a 2 week sentence to jail is identical to a life sentence in prison , because a 2 week stay in jail will ruin all of the remaining years of your life ( by design ) When you are starving and ca n't get money legally because the government set it up that way , its obvious what one must do to survive.Personally I do blame the government for creating directly so much crime that would n't happen otherwise.You see much less of this problem in countries with sane punishments for the harm done.Jail and prison are supposed to be to keep dangerous people away from a functional society.Once you start putting anyone and everyone in there with them , from jay walkers to people that just pissed off a cop legally , then any sense of fairness in law is ruined , and you get the outcome we have now.Just remember , its all by design , proven by the fact our government is well aware of other systems that work much better in that sense , yet the same people claim our current system is perfect .
For their goals , I can only assume they are speaking truthfully .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not saying he's right, but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.And that is why in the USA, even a 2 week sentence to jail is identical to a life sentence in prison, because a 2 week stay in jail will ruin all of the remaining years of your life (by design)When you are starving and can't get money legally because the government set it up that way, its obvious what one must do to survive.Personally I do blame the government for creating directly so much crime that wouldn't happen otherwise.You see much less of this problem in countries with sane punishments for the harm done.Jail and prison are supposed to be to keep dangerous people away from a functional society.Once you start putting anyone and everyone in there with them, from jay walkers to people that just pissed off a cop legally, then any sense of fairness in law is ruined, and you get the outcome we have now.Just remember, its all by design, proven by the fact our government is well aware of other systems that work much better in that sense, yet the same people claim our current system is perfect.
For their goals, I can only assume they are speaking truthfully.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148148</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266226380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers -- including some on federal government networks -- that were susceptible to a security hole.</i></p><p>The dude had a second chance. He blew it. And on the federal level no less.</p><p>Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I'm not even going to listen to you a third time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers -- including some on federal government networks -- that were susceptible to a security hole.The dude had a second chance .
He blew it .
And on the federal level no less.Fool me once , shame on you .
Fool me twice , shame on me .
I 'm not even going to listen to you a third time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers -- including some on federal government networks -- that were susceptible to a security hole.The dude had a second chance.
He blew it.
And on the federal level no less.Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
I'm not even going to listen to you a third time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31163318</id>
	<title>Re:Read the Fine Print</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266331020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Haha priceless</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Haha priceless</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Haha priceless</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31152798</id>
	<title>Re:Prison is bullshit</title>
	<author>Philip\_the\_physicist</author>
	<datestamp>1266262800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That is a bad idea. If the penalty for murder was the same as for mugging, then muggers would be much more likely to kill their victims because that way tehy can't be so easily identified. the same applies to everything else.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That is a bad idea .
If the penalty for murder was the same as for mugging , then muggers would be much more likely to kill their victims because that way tehy ca n't be so easily identified .
the same applies to everything else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is a bad idea.
If the penalty for murder was the same as for mugging, then muggers would be much more likely to kill their victims because that way tehy can't be so easily identified.
the same applies to everything else.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148446</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31149160</id>
	<title>Re:Good.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266231480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If you really want to reduce fraud, make the banks financially responsible for it.  As it is, there's little incentive for the industry to increase their security.</p><p>I'm not saying this guy shouldn't be in jail.  We should absolutely punish those who take unfair advantage of the system.  But if we really want results, we should fix the system.</p></div><p>They are.  I've been the victim of credit card fraud before, along with many of my friends (waiter apparently swiped my card into a copying machine, and sold the information later so everyone at the restaurant with me that day had a surprise in their statement a few months later).</p><p>Bank:  "Sir, have you made the following transactions:"</p><p>Me:  "I have not."</p><p>Bank:  "I'm sorry for the inconvenience, sir.  We have removed said transactions, cancelled your card, and are sending you a new one in the mail, which should arrive in two business days."</p><p>What actually happens is that increased security can cause people to use their cards less, resulting in lower revenue to them in the form of transaction fees.  That's why if you go to a fast food place or the movies, you don't even need to sign your receipt anymore, if the total purchase is below a certain value.  Increased convenience = increased use, and they figure that they can make more money out of this increased use than they are losing to fraud.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you really want to reduce fraud , make the banks financially responsible for it .
As it is , there 's little incentive for the industry to increase their security.I 'm not saying this guy should n't be in jail .
We should absolutely punish those who take unfair advantage of the system .
But if we really want results , we should fix the system.They are .
I 've been the victim of credit card fraud before , along with many of my friends ( waiter apparently swiped my card into a copying machine , and sold the information later so everyone at the restaurant with me that day had a surprise in their statement a few months later ) .Bank : " Sir , have you made the following transactions : " Me : " I have not .
" Bank : " I 'm sorry for the inconvenience , sir .
We have removed said transactions , cancelled your card , and are sending you a new one in the mail , which should arrive in two business days .
" What actually happens is that increased security can cause people to use their cards less , resulting in lower revenue to them in the form of transaction fees .
That 's why if you go to a fast food place or the movies , you do n't even need to sign your receipt anymore , if the total purchase is below a certain value .
Increased convenience = increased use , and they figure that they can make more money out of this increased use than they are losing to fraud .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you really want to reduce fraud, make the banks financially responsible for it.
As it is, there's little incentive for the industry to increase their security.I'm not saying this guy shouldn't be in jail.
We should absolutely punish those who take unfair advantage of the system.
But if we really want results, we should fix the system.They are.
I've been the victim of credit card fraud before, along with many of my friends (waiter apparently swiped my card into a copying machine, and sold the information later so everyone at the restaurant with me that day had a surprise in their statement a few months later).Bank:  "Sir, have you made the following transactions:"Me:  "I have not.
"Bank:  "I'm sorry for the inconvenience, sir.
We have removed said transactions, cancelled your card, and are sending you a new one in the mail, which should arrive in two business days.
"What actually happens is that increased security can cause people to use their cards less, resulting in lower revenue to them in the form of transaction fees.
That's why if you go to a fast food place or the movies, you don't even need to sign your receipt anymore, if the total purchase is below a certain value.
Increased convenience = increased use, and they figure that they can make more money out of this increased use than they are losing to fraud.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148366</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148278</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1266227040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I do agree, why does it have to be a forwarning to employers that you had a criminal past. If I spent my time in jail as decreed by the law for my crime, I have served my sentenced and therefor deserve the respect of doing the time, and start with a clean slate. No one will hire a criminal because they do not believe they have been reformed. I tend to agree the system is faulty, but I would start with making it somewhat less complicated for an ex con to get a job.</p><p>If he was young, and made a mistake, and paid for it, he deserves a REAL second chance. I think that is why so many of the cons try to get right back in after they get out....because not only have they become accustomed to that life, but also, they do not have to deal with rejection, starving, homelessness, etc..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do agree , why does it have to be a forwarning to employers that you had a criminal past .
If I spent my time in jail as decreed by the law for my crime , I have served my sentenced and therefor deserve the respect of doing the time , and start with a clean slate .
No one will hire a criminal because they do not believe they have been reformed .
I tend to agree the system is faulty , but I would start with making it somewhat less complicated for an ex con to get a job.If he was young , and made a mistake , and paid for it , he deserves a REAL second chance .
I think that is why so many of the cons try to get right back in after they get out....because not only have they become accustomed to that life , but also , they do not have to deal with rejection , starving , homelessness , etc. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I do agree, why does it have to be a forwarning to employers that you had a criminal past.
If I spent my time in jail as decreed by the law for my crime, I have served my sentenced and therefor deserve the respect of doing the time, and start with a clean slate.
No one will hire a criminal because they do not believe they have been reformed.
I tend to agree the system is faulty, but I would start with making it somewhat less complicated for an ex con to get a job.If he was young, and made a mistake, and paid for it, he deserves a REAL second chance.
I think that is why so many of the cons try to get right back in after they get out....because not only have they become accustomed to that life, but also, they do not have to deal with rejection, starving, homelessness, etc..</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31150002</id>
	<title>Re:Good.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266235260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Um, banks are responsible for credit card fraud...<br> <br>

At least in the US, the cardholder is only responsible for at most the first $50 of fraudulent charges.  The bank can attempt sue the perpetrator if they can find them to recoup losses.  They can also ATTEMPT to refuse payment to the vendors that accepted the fraudulent card.  In my experiences it is very infrequent for the attempt at refusal of payment to work.<br> <br>

The net result is that the bank/credit card company losses the majority of the fraudulent charge amount.  They are also out the expense of dealing with fixing the account in question, this can sometimes cost tens of thousands of dollars in employee pay.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Um , banks are responsible for credit card fraud.. . At least in the US , the cardholder is only responsible for at most the first $ 50 of fraudulent charges .
The bank can attempt sue the perpetrator if they can find them to recoup losses .
They can also ATTEMPT to refuse payment to the vendors that accepted the fraudulent card .
In my experiences it is very infrequent for the attempt at refusal of payment to work .
The net result is that the bank/credit card company losses the majority of the fraudulent charge amount .
They are also out the expense of dealing with fixing the account in question , this can sometimes cost tens of thousands of dollars in employee pay .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Um, banks are responsible for credit card fraud... 

At least in the US, the cardholder is only responsible for at most the first $50 of fraudulent charges.
The bank can attempt sue the perpetrator if they can find them to recoup losses.
They can also ATTEMPT to refuse payment to the vendors that accepted the fraudulent card.
In my experiences it is very infrequent for the attempt at refusal of payment to work.
The net result is that the bank/credit card company losses the majority of the fraudulent charge amount.
They are also out the expense of dealing with fixing the account in question, this can sometimes cost tens of thousands of dollars in employee pay.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148366</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31156286</id>
	<title>Re:Good.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266342360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Banks aren't as much the victim so much as you are so your argument is already invalid and you haven't even gotten more than a sentence out.</p><p>Banks are the ones that hold all the keys and they need to fix their security issues.  Their systems need an overhaul, their methods for working with merchants need to be re-evaluated.  All of this costs money that they just don't want to spend.  So GP's point is valid.  If they want to be federally insured they</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Banks are n't as much the victim so much as you are so your argument is already invalid and you have n't even gotten more than a sentence out.Banks are the ones that hold all the keys and they need to fix their security issues .
Their systems need an overhaul , their methods for working with merchants need to be re-evaluated .
All of this costs money that they just do n't want to spend .
So GP 's point is valid .
If they want to be federally insured they</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Banks aren't as much the victim so much as you are so your argument is already invalid and you haven't even gotten more than a sentence out.Banks are the ones that hold all the keys and they need to fix their security issues.
Their systems need an overhaul, their methods for working with merchants need to be re-evaluated.
All of this costs money that they just don't want to spend.
So GP's point is valid.
If they want to be federally insured they</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31150042</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31152698</id>
	<title>Re:long term sentence</title>
	<author>oztiks</author>
	<datestamp>1266261240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I guess his slashdot account wont be used for a while</p><p><a href="http://slashdot.org/~iceman" title="slashdot.org">http://slashdot.org/~iceman</a> [slashdot.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess his slashdot account wont be used for a whilehttp : //slashdot.org/ ~ iceman [ slashdot.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess his slashdot account wont be used for a whilehttp://slashdot.org/~iceman [slashdot.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148366</id>
	<title>Re:Good.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266227460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you really want to reduce fraud, make the banks financially responsible for it.  As it is, there's little incentive for the industry to increase their security.</p><p>I'm not saying this guy shouldn't be in jail.  We should absolutely punish those who take unfair advantage of the system.  But if we really want results, we should fix the system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you really want to reduce fraud , make the banks financially responsible for it .
As it is , there 's little incentive for the industry to increase their security.I 'm not saying this guy should n't be in jail .
We should absolutely punish those who take unfair advantage of the system .
But if we really want results , we should fix the system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you really want to reduce fraud, make the banks financially responsible for it.
As it is, there's little incentive for the industry to increase their security.I'm not saying this guy shouldn't be in jail.
We should absolutely punish those who take unfair advantage of the system.
But if we really want results, we should fix the system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147962</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148132</id>
	<title>For writing?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266226320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers "</p><p>I hope that's for releasing/using the software rather than the simple act of writing it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers " I hope that 's for releasing/using the software rather than the simple act of writing it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Butler was arrested for writing malicious software that installed a back-door program on computers "I hope that's for releasing/using the software rather than the simple act of writing it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148520</id>
	<title>Eye for an eye</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266228180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If your penetrating backdoors then dont be surprised when your are sent to pound me in the ass prison to have the same done to you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If your penetrating backdoors then dont be surprised when your are sent to pound me in the ass prison to have the same done to you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If your penetrating backdoors then dont be surprised when your are sent to pound me in the ass prison to have the same done to you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148282</id>
	<title>Quite right.</title>
	<author>CountBrass</author>
	<datestamp>1266227040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Some things deserve a permanent stigma: in this case how can you seriously expect he would continue to act in a role that requires significant trust when he's proven he can't be trusted?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Some things deserve a permanent stigma : in this case how can you seriously expect he would continue to act in a role that requires significant trust when he 's proven he ca n't be trusted ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some things deserve a permanent stigma: in this case how can you seriously expect he would continue to act in a role that requires significant trust when he's proven he can't be trusted?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148164</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31150010</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>vivian</author>
	<datestamp>1266235260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Exactly - weakest excuse ever. there were a lot of IT people that fell on hard times in 2002 - I spend 4 months looking for a contract in the financial sector (with no success) after the dot com bomb before trying a completely different line of work. There is always work of some sort available, if you aren't too particular - and you can still keep them fresh working on open source projects or your own project for a while until in your spare time until the good times roll again.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly - weakest excuse ever .
there were a lot of IT people that fell on hard times in 2002 - I spend 4 months looking for a contract in the financial sector ( with no success ) after the dot com bomb before trying a completely different line of work .
There is always work of some sort available , if you are n't too particular - and you can still keep them fresh working on open source projects or your own project for a while until in your spare time until the good times roll again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly - weakest excuse ever.
there were a lot of IT people that fell on hard times in 2002 - I spend 4 months looking for a contract in the financial sector (with no success) after the dot com bomb before trying a completely different line of work.
There is always work of some sort available, if you aren't too particular - and you can still keep them fresh working on open source projects or your own project for a while until in your spare time until the good times roll again.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148222</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148754</id>
	<title>Re:For writing?</title>
	<author>ub3r n3u7r4l1st</author>
	<datestamp>1266229320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The NASA hacker from England served 0 seconds in U.S. prison.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The NASA hacker from England served 0 seconds in U.S. prison .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The NASA hacker from England served 0 seconds in U.S. prison.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148226</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266226800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That has always bothered me. We send people to prison and then expect them to subsist on working as a janitor at 2-3 different jobs when they get out. Everyone wants a chance to make something of themselves and the only option we give to ex-cons is crime.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That has always bothered me .
We send people to prison and then expect them to subsist on working as a janitor at 2-3 different jobs when they get out .
Everyone wants a chance to make something of themselves and the only option we give to ex-cons is crime .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That has always bothered me.
We send people to prison and then expect them to subsist on working as a janitor at 2-3 different jobs when they get out.
Everyone wants a chance to make something of themselves and the only option we give to ex-cons is crime.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148198</id>
	<title>He did it to himself.</title>
	<author>Ungrounded Lightning</author>
	<datestamp>1266226680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I'm not saying he's right, but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.</i></p><p>His first conviction was for criminally violating the trust of his employer and working in direct contravention to his employer's interests and mission.  His skills are such that to be employed effectively he must be trusted.</p><p>Oops!</p><p>He did it to himself.  No employment for him.  (He'd have been lucky to find burgers to flip.)</p><p>So then he starts a business.  High corporate positions may have been barred to him by his first conviction, but a lot of smaller stuff still was open.  Yet what does he chose?  Cybercrime.</p><p>Oops!</p><p>When he finally gets out from THIS one he'll be watched so closely that even organized crime is unlikely to work with him.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not saying he 's right , but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.His first conviction was for criminally violating the trust of his employer and working in direct contravention to his employer 's interests and mission .
His skills are such that to be employed effectively he must be trusted.Oops ! He did it to himself .
No employment for him .
( He 'd have been lucky to find burgers to flip .
) So then he starts a business .
High corporate positions may have been barred to him by his first conviction , but a lot of smaller stuff still was open .
Yet what does he chose ?
Cybercrime.Oops ! When he finally gets out from THIS one he 'll be watched so closely that even organized crime is unlikely to work with him .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not saying he's right, but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.His first conviction was for criminally violating the trust of his employer and working in direct contravention to his employer's interests and mission.
His skills are such that to be employed effectively he must be trusted.Oops!He did it to himself.
No employment for him.
(He'd have been lucky to find burgers to flip.
)So then he starts a business.
High corporate positions may have been barred to him by his first conviction, but a lot of smaller stuff still was open.
Yet what does he chose?
Cybercrime.Oops!When he finally gets out from THIS one he'll be watched so closely that even organized crime is unlikely to work with him.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31149452</id>
	<title>Re:Looks like Iceman is being put on ice...</title>
	<author>Idbar</author>
	<datestamp>1266232560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I didn't know <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio\_Caine" title="wikipedia.org">Horatio Caine</a> [wikipedia.org] was a slashdot poster!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I did n't know Horatio Caine [ wikipedia.org ] was a slashdot poster !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I didn't know Horatio Caine [wikipedia.org] was a slashdot poster!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147918</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148174</id>
	<title>Slashdot misses the point</title>
	<author>netik</author>
	<datestamp>1266226560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This isn't about a 13 year sentence for "Hacking."</p><p>This is a 13 year sentence for credit fraud, credit card theft, and oh yeah, he also stored the credit card numbers on a computer where other people could get to them.</p><p>There's no cleverness here that needs awarding. Back doors are easy to install when the FBI has already allowed you to contract there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is n't about a 13 year sentence for " Hacking .
" This is a 13 year sentence for credit fraud , credit card theft , and oh yeah , he also stored the credit card numbers on a computer where other people could get to them.There 's no cleverness here that needs awarding .
Back doors are easy to install when the FBI has already allowed you to contract there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This isn't about a 13 year sentence for "Hacking.
"This is a 13 year sentence for credit fraud, credit card theft, and oh yeah, he also stored the credit card numbers on a computer where other people could get to them.There's no cleverness here that needs awarding.
Back doors are easy to install when the FBI has already allowed you to contract there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31149798</id>
	<title>Re:Prison is bullshit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266234180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Actually, 3-year recidivism is something like 50\% in the UK and US.</p><p>And the prison system is not a failure.  It has been a wild success.  At least 1\% of our population is in prison, many for non-violent and victimless crimes.  The prison lobby has been so successful that you never hear anyone talk about Big Prison the way you hear Big Oil or Big Pharma or Big Farma.</p><p>The reason you think the prison system is a failure is because you are under the mistaken impression that it's primary purpose is to rehabilitate criminals.  The system is designed to generate a profit; imprisoning and/or rehabilitating criminals is an accidental side effect.</p><p>If you don't believe me, then imagine if we had under-used prisons.  In order to protect their business model, the prison lobby would pay for a whole new set of laws, preferably ones that many people already violate, so we can keep imprisoning Americans...much like the War on Drugs has made sure to keep prisons in business despite the continuous drop in violent crime over the past two decades.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , 3-year recidivism is something like 50 \ % in the UK and US.And the prison system is not a failure .
It has been a wild success .
At least 1 \ % of our population is in prison , many for non-violent and victimless crimes .
The prison lobby has been so successful that you never hear anyone talk about Big Prison the way you hear Big Oil or Big Pharma or Big Farma.The reason you think the prison system is a failure is because you are under the mistaken impression that it 's primary purpose is to rehabilitate criminals .
The system is designed to generate a profit ; imprisoning and/or rehabilitating criminals is an accidental side effect.If you do n't believe me , then imagine if we had under-used prisons .
In order to protect their business model , the prison lobby would pay for a whole new set of laws , preferably ones that many people already violate , so we can keep imprisoning Americans...much like the War on Drugs has made sure to keep prisons in business despite the continuous drop in violent crime over the past two decades .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, 3-year recidivism is something like 50\% in the UK and US.And the prison system is not a failure.
It has been a wild success.
At least 1\% of our population is in prison, many for non-violent and victimless crimes.
The prison lobby has been so successful that you never hear anyone talk about Big Prison the way you hear Big Oil or Big Pharma or Big Farma.The reason you think the prison system is a failure is because you are under the mistaken impression that it's primary purpose is to rehabilitate criminals.
The system is designed to generate a profit; imprisoning and/or rehabilitating criminals is an accidental side effect.If you don't believe me, then imagine if we had under-used prisons.
In order to protect their business model, the prison lobby would pay for a whole new set of laws, preferably ones that many people already violate, so we can keep imprisoning Americans...much like the War on Drugs has made sure to keep prisons in business despite the continuous drop in violent crime over the past two decades.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148446</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148164</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266226500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is true. They are given little chance of employment and yet are expected to become members of society again.</p><p>The stigma for even little things carries for life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is true .
They are given little chance of employment and yet are expected to become members of society again.The stigma for even little things carries for life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is true.
They are given little chance of employment and yet are expected to become members of society again.The stigma for even little things carries for life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31149938</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>DaveV1.0</author>
	<datestamp>1266234900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I'm not saying he's right, but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.</p></div></blockquote><p>Yes, that one should not be convicted of a crime that involves abusing the trust and access one's employer has given one.</p><p>I really want to know what kind of position he was applying for. If it was computer related, say sys admin or security, it is not surprising he couldn't find a job because employers tend not to hire people with a record of abusing their access for sensitive, target-rich positions.</p><p>Really, would you hire an accountant that has been convicted for embezzlement?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not saying he 's right , but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.Yes , that one should not be convicted of a crime that involves abusing the trust and access one 's employer has given one.I really want to know what kind of position he was applying for .
If it was computer related , say sys admin or security , it is not surprising he could n't find a job because employers tend not to hire people with a record of abusing their access for sensitive , target-rich positions.Really , would you hire an accountant that has been convicted for embezzlement ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not saying he's right, but it does highlight something interesting about finding work as an ex-con.Yes, that one should not be convicted of a crime that involves abusing the trust and access one's employer has given one.I really want to know what kind of position he was applying for.
If it was computer related, say sys admin or security, it is not surprising he couldn't find a job because employers tend not to hire people with a record of abusing their access for sensitive, target-rich positions.Really, would you hire an accountant that has been convicted for embezzlement?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148542</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting.....</title>
	<author>Threni</author>
	<datestamp>1266228240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; "It is a shame that someone with so much ability chose to use it in a manner that hurt many people," Dembosky said in an e-mail message."</p><p>Yes, he should have done something moral like working as a defense contractor.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; " It is a shame that someone with so much ability chose to use it in a manner that hurt many people , " Dembosky said in an e-mail message .
" Yes , he should have done something moral like working as a defense contractor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; "It is a shame that someone with so much ability chose to use it in a manner that hurt many people," Dembosky said in an e-mail message.
"Yes, he should have done something moral like working as a defense contractor.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31163928</id>
	<title>Re:Looks like Iceman is being put on ice...</title>
	<author>LongearedBat</author>
	<datestamp>1266335880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I read the title my first thought was that <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/\%C3\%96tzi\_the\_Iceman" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">&#214;tzi</a> [wikipedia.org] had been thrown in the slammer for getting stuck the glacier.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I read the title my first thought was that   tzi [ wikipedia.org ] had been thrown in the slammer for getting stuck the glacier .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I read the title my first thought was that Ötzi [wikipedia.org] had been thrown in the slammer for getting stuck the glacier.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31147918</parent>
</comment>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_15_1952219_16</id>
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http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148222
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148072
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http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_15_1952219.31148164
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_15_1952219_36</id>
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