<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_01_20_0517229</id>
	<title>Genre Wars &mdash; the Downside of the RPG Takeover</title>
	<author>Soulskill</author>
	<datestamp>1263986520000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>Phaethon360 writes <i>"From <em>Bioshock</em> and <em>Modern Warfare 2</em> to even <em>Team Fortress 2</em>, <a href="http://www.couchcampus.com/lecture/genre-wars-downside-of-the-rpg-takeover/">RPG elements are creeping into game genres</a> that we never imagined they would. This change for the most part has managed to subtly improve upon genres that needed new life, but there's a cost that hasn't been tallied by the majority of game developers. 'The simple act of removing mod tools, along with the much discussed dedicated server issue, has made [<em>MW2</em>] a bit of a joke among competitive players. Gone are the days of "<a href="http://www.modernwarfare.se/promod4/about.html">promod</a>," and the only option you have is to play it their way. If Infinity Ward are so insistent on improving the variety of our experiences, they don&rsquo;t have to do it at the expense of the experience that many of us already love. It really is that simple. If they don&rsquo;t want to provide a good "back to basics experience," they could at least continue to provide the tools that allow us to do that for ourselves.'"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>Phaethon360 writes " From Bioshock and Modern Warfare 2 to even Team Fortress 2 , RPG elements are creeping into game genres that we never imagined they would .
This change for the most part has managed to subtly improve upon genres that needed new life , but there 's a cost that has n't been tallied by the majority of game developers .
'The simple act of removing mod tools , along with the much discussed dedicated server issue , has made [ MW2 ] a bit of a joke among competitive players .
Gone are the days of " promod , " and the only option you have is to play it their way .
If Infinity Ward are so insistent on improving the variety of our experiences , they don    t have to do it at the expense of the experience that many of us already love .
It really is that simple .
If they don    t want to provide a good " back to basics experience , " they could at least continue to provide the tools that allow us to do that for ourselves .
' "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Phaethon360 writes "From Bioshock and Modern Warfare 2 to even Team Fortress 2, RPG elements are creeping into game genres that we never imagined they would.
This change for the most part has managed to subtly improve upon genres that needed new life, but there's a cost that hasn't been tallied by the majority of game developers.
'The simple act of removing mod tools, along with the much discussed dedicated server issue, has made [MW2] a bit of a joke among competitive players.
Gone are the days of "promod," and the only option you have is to play it their way.
If Infinity Ward are so insistent on improving the variety of our experiences, they don’t have to do it at the expense of the experience that many of us already love.
It really is that simple.
If they don’t want to provide a good "back to basics experience," they could at least continue to provide the tools that allow us to do that for ourselves.
'"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30834022</id>
	<title>Good Point</title>
	<author>kellyb9</author>
	<datestamp>1264010940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I, too, hate it when game developers break through predefined molds and come up with some innovative and new.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I , too , hate it when game developers break through predefined molds and come up with some innovative and new .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I, too, hate it when game developers break through predefined molds and come up with some innovative and new.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30834570</id>
	<title>If you need to mod something</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1264013040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>in order to make it good, maybe you should move on to a good games?</p><p>Yes, I understand many mods are to good games, the the submitter seems to be talking about a bad game.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>in order to make it good , maybe you should move on to a good games ? Yes , I understand many mods are to good games , the the submitter seems to be talking about a bad game .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>in order to make it good, maybe you should move on to a good games?Yes, I understand many mods are to good games, the the submitter seems to be talking about a bad game.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830780</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>mister\_playboy</author>
	<datestamp>1263996660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ogre Battle for SNES/PS1 and Ogre Battle64 for N64 are what spring to mind as closest to your idea.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ogre Battle for SNES/PS1 and Ogre Battle64 for N64 are what spring to mind as closest to your idea .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ogre Battle for SNES/PS1 and Ogre Battle64 for N64 are what spring to mind as closest to your idea.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830566</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830526</id>
	<title>Bioshock?</title>
	<author>FTWinston</author>
	<datestamp>1263993420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Surely Bioshock should count as RPG elements creeping <i>out</i> of the game, rather than into it? Compare it to System Shock 2, which it is supposedly a "spiritual successor" to. Which has lots more RPG elements? Its the one more convincing and compelling story.
<br> <br>[Grumpy rant]<br>
Every time I play bioshock, even when I force myself, I get bored with it and eventually give up. Maybe its just me, and I'm well aware of all the people that go on about how great it is, but it never felt compelling, and things like pretty unbelievable characters (that artist who froze people sticks in my mind), and the freakin cheap cop out of little sisters leaving <i>teddy bears</i> for you usually quickly ruin the immersion (and fun) for me. I still play Shock 2 however, even though I know the location of every scare.<br>Ah damn, does the immenant release of Bioshock 2 mean I'll have to stop referring to Shock 2 as<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Shock 2?<br>[/Grumpy rant]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Surely Bioshock should count as RPG elements creeping out of the game , rather than into it ?
Compare it to System Shock 2 , which it is supposedly a " spiritual successor " to .
Which has lots more RPG elements ?
Its the one more convincing and compelling story .
[ Grumpy rant ] Every time I play bioshock , even when I force myself , I get bored with it and eventually give up .
Maybe its just me , and I 'm well aware of all the people that go on about how great it is , but it never felt compelling , and things like pretty unbelievable characters ( that artist who froze people sticks in my mind ) , and the freakin cheap cop out of little sisters leaving teddy bears for you usually quickly ruin the immersion ( and fun ) for me .
I still play Shock 2 however , even though I know the location of every scare.Ah damn , does the immenant release of Bioshock 2 mean I 'll have to stop referring to Shock 2 as ... Shock 2 ?
[ /Grumpy rant ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Surely Bioshock should count as RPG elements creeping out of the game, rather than into it?
Compare it to System Shock 2, which it is supposedly a "spiritual successor" to.
Which has lots more RPG elements?
Its the one more convincing and compelling story.
[Grumpy rant]
Every time I play bioshock, even when I force myself, I get bored with it and eventually give up.
Maybe its just me, and I'm well aware of all the people that go on about how great it is, but it never felt compelling, and things like pretty unbelievable characters (that artist who froze people sticks in my mind), and the freakin cheap cop out of little sisters leaving teddy bears for you usually quickly ruin the immersion (and fun) for me.
I still play Shock 2 however, even though I know the location of every scare.Ah damn, does the immenant release of Bioshock 2 mean I'll have to stop referring to Shock 2 as ... Shock 2?
[/Grumpy rant]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831110</id>
	<title>Re:Two issues here</title>
	<author>MrBogard</author>
	<datestamp>1263999240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The mod issue is only related here in that Call of Duty forces those RPG elements on to the player. Most clannies in Call of Duty 4 play promodlive, something not possible in MW2.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The mod issue is only related here in that Call of Duty forces those RPG elements on to the player .
Most clannies in Call of Duty 4 play promodlive , something not possible in MW2 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The mod issue is only related here in that Call of Duty forces those RPG elements on to the player.
Most clannies in Call of Duty 4 play promodlive, something not possible in MW2.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830384</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830384</id>
	<title>Two issues here</title>
	<author>RogueyWon</author>
	<datestamp>1263991500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think there are two distinct issues highlighted in the story, which don't necessarily have a particularly strong connection.</p><p>The first is the creep of RPG elements into other genres. I've certainly noticed this myself, and there are a few obvious manifestations. The most obvious is the idea that the player should get more powerful over the course of the game, and that said power should not be subject to resets. If you look at a traditional shoot-em-up, the player picks up new weapons as he plays through the game, but once he gets shot and loses a life, he's generally back to the pea-shooter he started the game with. This model is now almost dead, at least in its pure form. If you look at any recent action game - Bayonetta, for example - some items (such as health potions and the disposable weapons) may be temporary, but as the player gets further into the game, they accumulate persistent upgrades, such as a longer health bar, more special moves and better weapons. In fact, a lot of games give players who have already beaten them the option of starting over, while carrying over their upgrades from previous cycles.</p><p>So why has this happened? I think the gaming industry has realised that, now that gaming is primarily an activity that takes place in the home rather than in arcades, people do not like excessive penalties for failure. Allowing a power-curve in games is pretty much established in most genres these days, but resetting that curve whenever a player makes a mistake results in people switching off the console - and loses future sales for games in that series. There are still a few titles that hold out - Mario, in particular, which even still preserves the obsolete concept of "lives" in some installments - but they increasingly look like antiquated oddities. We always seem to get a few odd cases here on slashdot who like to post on threads about MMOs saying "they'd be more fun if they had permadeath", but it's interesting that commercial MMO operators, who have to put their money where their mouth is, have never seen fit to pursue this. I think they know what they're doing.</p><p>The second issue is around the restriction of modding, which I don't really see as being at all related to the spread of RPG elements. After all, RPGs are historically highly moddable, from their roots in the pen and paper market onwards. The Neverwinter Nights games were heavily marketed with their modability as a key selling point. However, there does seem to be a trend towards restriction of modding in some genres, including fpses. I think there are two drivers for this. The first, simply put, is a "hot coffee" reaction. As certain countries (eg. Germany and Australia) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content, developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised (or sued) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod. The other cause is the desire to deliver a more consistent experience.</p><p>I think this stems from the console market. Consoles have many disadvantages compared to the PC as platforms for multiplayer gaming, but they do have a big advantage; consistency of hardware. While there will still be imbalances due to connection quality, the hardware is the same in every case, so there are fewer non-skill-related variables invovled in gaming. In some ways, this actually makes the game more suitable for serious competition. There may be another factor related to something I remember relating to Quake 3; graphical "vandalism". I remember how when Quake 3 had its brief honeymoon with the gaming community (before being buried by Counter-Strike), almost all high level players (and most of the wannabes) played with graphical details that made the game look more like Carrier Command than a modern fps. I remember reading that ID weren't happy about how their game was being shown off, and that this fed into the more restrictive graphical options within Quake 3.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think there are two distinct issues highlighted in the story , which do n't necessarily have a particularly strong connection.The first is the creep of RPG elements into other genres .
I 've certainly noticed this myself , and there are a few obvious manifestations .
The most obvious is the idea that the player should get more powerful over the course of the game , and that said power should not be subject to resets .
If you look at a traditional shoot-em-up , the player picks up new weapons as he plays through the game , but once he gets shot and loses a life , he 's generally back to the pea-shooter he started the game with .
This model is now almost dead , at least in its pure form .
If you look at any recent action game - Bayonetta , for example - some items ( such as health potions and the disposable weapons ) may be temporary , but as the player gets further into the game , they accumulate persistent upgrades , such as a longer health bar , more special moves and better weapons .
In fact , a lot of games give players who have already beaten them the option of starting over , while carrying over their upgrades from previous cycles.So why has this happened ?
I think the gaming industry has realised that , now that gaming is primarily an activity that takes place in the home rather than in arcades , people do not like excessive penalties for failure .
Allowing a power-curve in games is pretty much established in most genres these days , but resetting that curve whenever a player makes a mistake results in people switching off the console - and loses future sales for games in that series .
There are still a few titles that hold out - Mario , in particular , which even still preserves the obsolete concept of " lives " in some installments - but they increasingly look like antiquated oddities .
We always seem to get a few odd cases here on slashdot who like to post on threads about MMOs saying " they 'd be more fun if they had permadeath " , but it 's interesting that commercial MMO operators , who have to put their money where their mouth is , have never seen fit to pursue this .
I think they know what they 're doing.The second issue is around the restriction of modding , which I do n't really see as being at all related to the spread of RPG elements .
After all , RPGs are historically highly moddable , from their roots in the pen and paper market onwards .
The Neverwinter Nights games were heavily marketed with their modability as a key selling point .
However , there does seem to be a trend towards restriction of modding in some genres , including fpses .
I think there are two drivers for this .
The first , simply put , is a " hot coffee " reaction .
As certain countries ( eg .
Germany and Australia ) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content , developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised ( or sued ) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod .
The other cause is the desire to deliver a more consistent experience.I think this stems from the console market .
Consoles have many disadvantages compared to the PC as platforms for multiplayer gaming , but they do have a big advantage ; consistency of hardware .
While there will still be imbalances due to connection quality , the hardware is the same in every case , so there are fewer non-skill-related variables invovled in gaming .
In some ways , this actually makes the game more suitable for serious competition .
There may be another factor related to something I remember relating to Quake 3 ; graphical " vandalism " .
I remember how when Quake 3 had its brief honeymoon with the gaming community ( before being buried by Counter-Strike ) , almost all high level players ( and most of the wannabes ) played with graphical details that made the game look more like Carrier Command than a modern fps .
I remember reading that ID were n't happy about how their game was being shown off , and that this fed into the more restrictive graphical options within Quake 3 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think there are two distinct issues highlighted in the story, which don't necessarily have a particularly strong connection.The first is the creep of RPG elements into other genres.
I've certainly noticed this myself, and there are a few obvious manifestations.
The most obvious is the idea that the player should get more powerful over the course of the game, and that said power should not be subject to resets.
If you look at a traditional shoot-em-up, the player picks up new weapons as he plays through the game, but once he gets shot and loses a life, he's generally back to the pea-shooter he started the game with.
This model is now almost dead, at least in its pure form.
If you look at any recent action game - Bayonetta, for example - some items (such as health potions and the disposable weapons) may be temporary, but as the player gets further into the game, they accumulate persistent upgrades, such as a longer health bar, more special moves and better weapons.
In fact, a lot of games give players who have already beaten them the option of starting over, while carrying over their upgrades from previous cycles.So why has this happened?
I think the gaming industry has realised that, now that gaming is primarily an activity that takes place in the home rather than in arcades, people do not like excessive penalties for failure.
Allowing a power-curve in games is pretty much established in most genres these days, but resetting that curve whenever a player makes a mistake results in people switching off the console - and loses future sales for games in that series.
There are still a few titles that hold out - Mario, in particular, which even still preserves the obsolete concept of "lives" in some installments - but they increasingly look like antiquated oddities.
We always seem to get a few odd cases here on slashdot who like to post on threads about MMOs saying "they'd be more fun if they had permadeath", but it's interesting that commercial MMO operators, who have to put their money where their mouth is, have never seen fit to pursue this.
I think they know what they're doing.The second issue is around the restriction of modding, which I don't really see as being at all related to the spread of RPG elements.
After all, RPGs are historically highly moddable, from their roots in the pen and paper market onwards.
The Neverwinter Nights games were heavily marketed with their modability as a key selling point.
However, there does seem to be a trend towards restriction of modding in some genres, including fpses.
I think there are two drivers for this.
The first, simply put, is a "hot coffee" reaction.
As certain countries (eg.
Germany and Australia) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content, developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised (or sued) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod.
The other cause is the desire to deliver a more consistent experience.I think this stems from the console market.
Consoles have many disadvantages compared to the PC as platforms for multiplayer gaming, but they do have a big advantage; consistency of hardware.
While there will still be imbalances due to connection quality, the hardware is the same in every case, so there are fewer non-skill-related variables invovled in gaming.
In some ways, this actually makes the game more suitable for serious competition.
There may be another factor related to something I remember relating to Quake 3; graphical "vandalism".
I remember how when Quake 3 had its brief honeymoon with the gaming community (before being buried by Counter-Strike), almost all high level players (and most of the wannabes) played with graphical details that made the game look more like Carrier Command than a modern fps.
I remember reading that ID weren't happy about how their game was being shown off, and that this fed into the more restrictive graphical options within Quake 3.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830438</id>
	<title>There will allways be Quake 3 CPMA</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1263992220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or Defrag.<br>Nothing to optimize on something that is perfect.</p><p>Defrag in perfection: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2hpaKphOtI" title="youtube.com">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2hpaKphOtI</a> [youtube.com]<br>CPMA in perfection: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4zEge\_iWPk" title="youtube.com">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4zEge\_iWPk</a> [youtube.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or Defrag.Nothing to optimize on something that is perfect.Defrag in perfection : http : //www.youtube.com/watch ? v = X2hpaKphOtI [ youtube.com ] CPMA in perfection : http : //www.youtube.com/watch ? v = j4zEge \ _iWPk [ youtube.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or Defrag.Nothing to optimize on something that is perfect.Defrag in perfection: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2hpaKphOtI [youtube.com]CPMA in perfection: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4zEge\_iWPk [youtube.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30836498</id>
	<title>Forum RPGs</title>
	<author>penguinrecorder</author>
	<datestamp>1264020780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Let's face it, RPG elements are creeping into everything. They've already crept into slashdot (Karma points, achievements).

I can't wait for the day when I can check a calculator to see how many times I have to make chicken stir fry before I can level up my cooking skill.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Let 's face it , RPG elements are creeping into everything .
They 've already crept into slashdot ( Karma points , achievements ) .
I ca n't wait for the day when I can check a calculator to see how many times I have to make chicken stir fry before I can level up my cooking skill .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let's face it, RPG elements are creeping into everything.
They've already crept into slashdot (Karma points, achievements).
I can't wait for the day when I can check a calculator to see how many times I have to make chicken stir fry before I can level up my cooking skill.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830284</id>
	<title>WTF?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263990540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I read the summary, it did not make sense. So, I RTFA, it still does not make sense. Is anything being said here at all??</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I read the summary , it did not make sense .
So , I RTFA , it still does not make sense .
Is anything being said here at all ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I read the summary, it did not make sense.
So, I RTFA, it still does not make sense.
Is anything being said here at all?
?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30832340</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>jollyreaper</author>
	<datestamp>1264005000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What I've not seen that much of are RPGs with RTS mechanics. Picture having your group of people that you start out with at a beginning of the game, and each of them has some ability and weakness. There would have to be more plot and character development for an RPG to separate it from Warcraft 1-3 (adding multiple endings, having side quests), but it could be done.</p></div><p>The Crescent Hawk's Revenge, a very early RTS mechwarrior game. You had about twenty missions and mech states would carry over from one mission to the next. The game was pretty linear with a few branches, path A or B to reach an intended goal. Mechs had pilots with stats and you had the opportunity to swap pilots and mechs at certain points. Would be seen as incredibly rudimentary by today's standards but none of these mechanics are present in modern-day RTS.</p><p>Personally, I like the idea of carrying units over from mission to mission. I like the idea of putting a name and a face to the pilot. I really like having a storyline tightly integrated with the gameplay. Total Annihilation had a superior game engine but I was really wrapped up in Warcraft's story. Never played Warcraft 3, heard bad reviews of it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What I 've not seen that much of are RPGs with RTS mechanics .
Picture having your group of people that you start out with at a beginning of the game , and each of them has some ability and weakness .
There would have to be more plot and character development for an RPG to separate it from Warcraft 1-3 ( adding multiple endings , having side quests ) , but it could be done.The Crescent Hawk 's Revenge , a very early RTS mechwarrior game .
You had about twenty missions and mech states would carry over from one mission to the next .
The game was pretty linear with a few branches , path A or B to reach an intended goal .
Mechs had pilots with stats and you had the opportunity to swap pilots and mechs at certain points .
Would be seen as incredibly rudimentary by today 's standards but none of these mechanics are present in modern-day RTS.Personally , I like the idea of carrying units over from mission to mission .
I like the idea of putting a name and a face to the pilot .
I really like having a storyline tightly integrated with the gameplay .
Total Annihilation had a superior game engine but I was really wrapped up in Warcraft 's story .
Never played Warcraft 3 , heard bad reviews of it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What I've not seen that much of are RPGs with RTS mechanics.
Picture having your group of people that you start out with at a beginning of the game, and each of them has some ability and weakness.
There would have to be more plot and character development for an RPG to separate it from Warcraft 1-3 (adding multiple endings, having side quests), but it could be done.The Crescent Hawk's Revenge, a very early RTS mechwarrior game.
You had about twenty missions and mech states would carry over from one mission to the next.
The game was pretty linear with a few branches, path A or B to reach an intended goal.
Mechs had pilots with stats and you had the opportunity to swap pilots and mechs at certain points.
Would be seen as incredibly rudimentary by today's standards but none of these mechanics are present in modern-day RTS.Personally, I like the idea of carrying units over from mission to mission.
I like the idea of putting a name and a face to the pilot.
I really like having a storyline tightly integrated with the gameplay.
Total Annihilation had a superior game engine but I was really wrapped up in Warcraft's story.
Never played Warcraft 3, heard bad reviews of it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830566</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30833558</id>
	<title>Bioshock?  WTF?</title>
	<author>DdJ</author>
	<datestamp>1264009140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He calls <em>Bioshock</em> an example of RPG elements creeping into other genres?  WTF?</p><p>At its core that game should be an RPG.  I think it's an example of <em>shooter</em> elements creeping into my RPGs.  Same damned thing happened to Mass Effect.  Hopefully I'll be able to look past it in Bioshock 2 and ME2.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He calls Bioshock an example of RPG elements creeping into other genres ?
WTF ? At its core that game should be an RPG .
I think it 's an example of shooter elements creeping into my RPGs .
Same damned thing happened to Mass Effect .
Hopefully I 'll be able to look past it in Bioshock 2 and ME2 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He calls Bioshock an example of RPG elements creeping into other genres?
WTF?At its core that game should be an RPG.
I think it's an example of shooter elements creeping into my RPGs.
Same damned thing happened to Mass Effect.
Hopefully I'll be able to look past it in Bioshock 2 and ME2.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831062</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>MrBogard</author>
	<datestamp>1263998880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I wrote this, and I understand a lot of the reactions here. It does come off as a bit of a bitchy rant, but I had good intentions. I actually like the blending of genres myself, I just am worried about the future of competitive games as a side effect. This is where the lack of mod tools has had a tremendous effect on the Call of Duty community.

People don't compete in COD4 with perks and attachments. They play promodlive, which not only stripped down the customization of the game, but also rebalanced it for straight competitive play. Infinity Ward forces you to play it *their way*, which while not necessarily a bad thing still limits our "classic" experience.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I wrote this , and I understand a lot of the reactions here .
It does come off as a bit of a bitchy rant , but I had good intentions .
I actually like the blending of genres myself , I just am worried about the future of competitive games as a side effect .
This is where the lack of mod tools has had a tremendous effect on the Call of Duty community .
People do n't compete in COD4 with perks and attachments .
They play promodlive , which not only stripped down the customization of the game , but also rebalanced it for straight competitive play .
Infinity Ward forces you to play it * their way * , which while not necessarily a bad thing still limits our " classic " experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wrote this, and I understand a lot of the reactions here.
It does come off as a bit of a bitchy rant, but I had good intentions.
I actually like the blending of genres myself, I just am worried about the future of competitive games as a side effect.
This is where the lack of mod tools has had a tremendous effect on the Call of Duty community.
People don't compete in COD4 with perks and attachments.
They play promodlive, which not only stripped down the customization of the game, but also rebalanced it for straight competitive play.
Infinity Ward forces you to play it *their way*, which while not necessarily a bad thing still limits our "classic" experience.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830324</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30834048</id>
	<title>Re:Two issues here</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264011000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>2) Usermade content gives a free alternative to expansion packs and DLC, which may decrease sales.</i></p><p>However, if the expansion packs and DLC provide enough new content, many new mods will build on top of them, providing more sales from people who want to play the mods.  See Neverwinter Nights.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>2 ) Usermade content gives a free alternative to expansion packs and DLC , which may decrease sales.However , if the expansion packs and DLC provide enough new content , many new mods will build on top of them , providing more sales from people who want to play the mods .
See Neverwinter Nights .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>2) Usermade content gives a free alternative to expansion packs and DLC, which may decrease sales.However, if the expansion packs and DLC provide enough new content, many new mods will build on top of them, providing more sales from people who want to play the mods.
See Neverwinter Nights.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830686</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30841368</id>
	<title>Re:RPG elements? Where?</title>
	<author>mjwx</author>
	<datestamp>1264000740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>It was completed in BioShock. Awesome graphics, great atmosphere, <b>an interesting story,</b></p></div> </blockquote><p>

The story was ripped straight from System Shock 2. Most of the game was except they removed the parts that couldn't work properly on consoles without the users ADHD kicking in such as the levelling and inventory system. I liked the levelling system in SS2, you find cyber modules or are given them for completing a quest rather then standard old skill points. They should have done this in Bioshock but doing that would have killed it for the console players.<br> <br>

Just to illustrate my point about BS's story being SS2's story:<br> <br>

Mutants -&gt; Splicers<br>
Cyborgs -&gt; Big daddies<br>
Implants -&gt; Plasmids<br>
Nanites -&gt; Adam<br>
Polito/Shodan -&gt; Atlas/Fontain<br>
Diego -&gt; Ryan<br>
Delacroix -&gt; Tennenbaum<br> <br>

Go through (\_)TRAINING/(\_)PLANE CRASH and get to (\_)SPACESHIP/(\_)UNDERWATER CITY. (\_)POLITO/(\_)ATLAS contacts you and tells you something has gone horribly wrong. Do some tasks for (\_)POLITO/(\_)ATLAS and eventually find out that (\_)POLITO/(\_)ATLAS is (\_)SHODAN/(\_)FONTAIN who is really the games villain. Find out that (\_)DIEGO/(\_)RYAN is not the villain you thought them to be. Go and kill (\_)SHODAN/(\_)FONTAIN with a little help from (\_)DELACROIX/(\_)TENNENBAUM.<br> <br>

My problem is that I could have overlooked BS being a clone of SS2 with a steampunk setting if it were actually a decent copy of SS2. Instead it was dumbed down and annoying.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It was completed in BioShock .
Awesome graphics , great atmosphere , an interesting story , The story was ripped straight from System Shock 2 .
Most of the game was except they removed the parts that could n't work properly on consoles without the users ADHD kicking in such as the levelling and inventory system .
I liked the levelling system in SS2 , you find cyber modules or are given them for completing a quest rather then standard old skill points .
They should have done this in Bioshock but doing that would have killed it for the console players .
Just to illustrate my point about BS 's story being SS2 's story : Mutants - &gt; Splicers Cyborgs - &gt; Big daddies Implants - &gt; Plasmids Nanites - &gt; Adam Polito/Shodan - &gt; Atlas/Fontain Diego - &gt; Ryan Delacroix - &gt; Tennenbaum Go through ( \ _ ) TRAINING/ ( \ _ ) PLANE CRASH and get to ( \ _ ) SPACESHIP/ ( \ _ ) UNDERWATER CITY .
( \ _ ) POLITO/ ( \ _ ) ATLAS contacts you and tells you something has gone horribly wrong .
Do some tasks for ( \ _ ) POLITO/ ( \ _ ) ATLAS and eventually find out that ( \ _ ) POLITO/ ( \ _ ) ATLAS is ( \ _ ) SHODAN/ ( \ _ ) FONTAIN who is really the games villain .
Find out that ( \ _ ) DIEGO/ ( \ _ ) RYAN is not the villain you thought them to be .
Go and kill ( \ _ ) SHODAN/ ( \ _ ) FONTAIN with a little help from ( \ _ ) DELACROIX/ ( \ _ ) TENNENBAUM .
My problem is that I could have overlooked BS being a clone of SS2 with a steampunk setting if it were actually a decent copy of SS2 .
Instead it was dumbed down and annoying .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It was completed in BioShock.
Awesome graphics, great atmosphere, an interesting story, 

The story was ripped straight from System Shock 2.
Most of the game was except they removed the parts that couldn't work properly on consoles without the users ADHD kicking in such as the levelling and inventory system.
I liked the levelling system in SS2, you find cyber modules or are given them for completing a quest rather then standard old skill points.
They should have done this in Bioshock but doing that would have killed it for the console players.
Just to illustrate my point about BS's story being SS2's story: 

Mutants -&gt; Splicers
Cyborgs -&gt; Big daddies
Implants -&gt; Plasmids
Nanites -&gt; Adam
Polito/Shodan -&gt; Atlas/Fontain
Diego -&gt; Ryan
Delacroix -&gt; Tennenbaum 

Go through (\_)TRAINING/(\_)PLANE CRASH and get to (\_)SPACESHIP/(\_)UNDERWATER CITY.
(\_)POLITO/(\_)ATLAS contacts you and tells you something has gone horribly wrong.
Do some tasks for (\_)POLITO/(\_)ATLAS and eventually find out that (\_)POLITO/(\_)ATLAS is (\_)SHODAN/(\_)FONTAIN who is really the games villain.
Find out that (\_)DIEGO/(\_)RYAN is not the villain you thought them to be.
Go and kill (\_)SHODAN/(\_)FONTAIN with a little help from (\_)DELACROIX/(\_)TENNENBAUM.
My problem is that I could have overlooked BS being a clone of SS2 with a steampunk setting if it were actually a decent copy of SS2.
Instead it was dumbed down and annoying.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831106</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30833498</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>nlawalker</author>
	<datestamp>1264008900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The removal of mod tools in MW2 most certainly does have something to do with the RPG elements.</p><p>Bioshock and Fallout 3 aren't competitive multiplayer games - your level doesn't affect anyone outside of your one-player game. Leveling in MW2 controls access to perks and weapons that are supposed to be earned, and your level is supposed to be indicative of your relative experience and playtime. The leveling system creates a community hierarchy. Now, I'm not making any argument about whether or not that aspect adds to the game. What I'm saying is that if mod tools existed, <i>nobody</i> could play the game the way the devs intended because the leveling structure would be completely useless, at least in the game's current incarnation - people would just mod their way to 70 and that's that.</p><p>I suppose they could have created an option like Diablo 2's "hardcore" mode that guarantees character integrity - they could have segmented play into a completely unranked, all-perks-and-weapons, no EXP mode and a separate, ranked, leveling mode where you earn your achievements. However, saying "mod tools don't affect RPG elements" would be like me saying that everyone should just get infinite money and experience in WoW - it changes the way the game works.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The removal of mod tools in MW2 most certainly does have something to do with the RPG elements.Bioshock and Fallout 3 are n't competitive multiplayer games - your level does n't affect anyone outside of your one-player game .
Leveling in MW2 controls access to perks and weapons that are supposed to be earned , and your level is supposed to be indicative of your relative experience and playtime .
The leveling system creates a community hierarchy .
Now , I 'm not making any argument about whether or not that aspect adds to the game .
What I 'm saying is that if mod tools existed , nobody could play the game the way the devs intended because the leveling structure would be completely useless , at least in the game 's current incarnation - people would just mod their way to 70 and that 's that.I suppose they could have created an option like Diablo 2 's " hardcore " mode that guarantees character integrity - they could have segmented play into a completely unranked , all-perks-and-weapons , no EXP mode and a separate , ranked , leveling mode where you earn your achievements .
However , saying " mod tools do n't affect RPG elements " would be like me saying that everyone should just get infinite money and experience in WoW - it changes the way the game works .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The removal of mod tools in MW2 most certainly does have something to do with the RPG elements.Bioshock and Fallout 3 aren't competitive multiplayer games - your level doesn't affect anyone outside of your one-player game.
Leveling in MW2 controls access to perks and weapons that are supposed to be earned, and your level is supposed to be indicative of your relative experience and playtime.
The leveling system creates a community hierarchy.
Now, I'm not making any argument about whether or not that aspect adds to the game.
What I'm saying is that if mod tools existed, nobody could play the game the way the devs intended because the leveling structure would be completely useless, at least in the game's current incarnation - people would just mod their way to 70 and that's that.I suppose they could have created an option like Diablo 2's "hardcore" mode that guarantees character integrity - they could have segmented play into a completely unranked, all-perks-and-weapons, no EXP mode and a separate, ranked, leveling mode where you earn your achievements.
However, saying "mod tools don't affect RPG elements" would be like me saying that everyone should just get infinite money and experience in WoW - it changes the way the game works.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830324</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30835176</id>
	<title>Mabinogi</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264015560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ever play Mabinogi (or ANY game that uses Hackshield or GameGuard?)</p><p>There is a modding community, but it's all pretty much evil:<br>- Hackshield bypass which allows the mods and cheating<br>- Mods to the data folder to allow cheating (by way of having maps marked, duping items)<br>- Mods to the data folder to allow cosmetic cheating (having "you" have equipment that requires effort, money or time to earn/purchase)<br>- Mods to the dll files to allow cheating (to see hidden stats like combat power, to hack the archery range or accuracy)<br>- Mods to the dll files to fix bugs in the game client (font rendering subsystem)<br>- Mods to break the game through packet editing</p><p>Here's a point to prove the complaint of "allowing mods prevents earning profit from the game"</p><p>One of the cheats that virtually everyone had was the "summon" mod, which costs 50 cents to buy from the game store, but the mod made it so any item in your inventory (stackable items like meat, salt, strawberries) could be used to trigger it, thus depriving Nexon of money at 50 cents a pop. Some players would use this mod excessively to teleport their friends around or to field bosses. This "mod" was finally fixed in the last patch update.</p><p>But the root of the mods is the off-the-shelf software being used to "prevent" modding/cheating. Once someone bypasses hackshield all the mods come back into full force. Since otherwise it requires skill to edit the game binaries or data pack files. Hackshield doesn't do squat about edits to the binaries.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ever play Mabinogi ( or ANY game that uses Hackshield or GameGuard ?
) There is a modding community , but it 's all pretty much evil : - Hackshield bypass which allows the mods and cheating- Mods to the data folder to allow cheating ( by way of having maps marked , duping items ) - Mods to the data folder to allow cosmetic cheating ( having " you " have equipment that requires effort , money or time to earn/purchase ) - Mods to the dll files to allow cheating ( to see hidden stats like combat power , to hack the archery range or accuracy ) - Mods to the dll files to fix bugs in the game client ( font rendering subsystem ) - Mods to break the game through packet editingHere 's a point to prove the complaint of " allowing mods prevents earning profit from the game " One of the cheats that virtually everyone had was the " summon " mod , which costs 50 cents to buy from the game store , but the mod made it so any item in your inventory ( stackable items like meat , salt , strawberries ) could be used to trigger it , thus depriving Nexon of money at 50 cents a pop .
Some players would use this mod excessively to teleport their friends around or to field bosses .
This " mod " was finally fixed in the last patch update.But the root of the mods is the off-the-shelf software being used to " prevent " modding/cheating .
Once someone bypasses hackshield all the mods come back into full force .
Since otherwise it requires skill to edit the game binaries or data pack files .
Hackshield does n't do squat about edits to the binaries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ever play Mabinogi (or ANY game that uses Hackshield or GameGuard?
)There is a modding community, but it's all pretty much evil:- Hackshield bypass which allows the mods and cheating- Mods to the data folder to allow cheating (by way of having maps marked, duping items)- Mods to the data folder to allow cosmetic cheating (having "you" have equipment that requires effort, money or time to earn/purchase)- Mods to the dll files to allow cheating (to see hidden stats like combat power, to hack the archery range or accuracy)- Mods to the dll files to fix bugs in the game client (font rendering subsystem)- Mods to break the game through packet editingHere's a point to prove the complaint of "allowing mods prevents earning profit from the game"One of the cheats that virtually everyone had was the "summon" mod, which costs 50 cents to buy from the game store, but the mod made it so any item in your inventory (stackable items like meat, salt, strawberries) could be used to trigger it, thus depriving Nexon of money at 50 cents a pop.
Some players would use this mod excessively to teleport their friends around or to field bosses.
This "mod" was finally fixed in the last patch update.But the root of the mods is the off-the-shelf software being used to "prevent" modding/cheating.
Once someone bypasses hackshield all the mods come back into full force.
Since otherwise it requires skill to edit the game binaries or data pack files.
Hackshield doesn't do squat about edits to the binaries.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830444</id>
	<title>WHAT</title>
	<author>minginqunt</author>
	<datestamp>1263992280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The removal of mod tools is because Infinity Ward are a bunch of PC-hating cocktards.</p><p>What that has to do with "RPG elements" is presumably left as an exercise to the reader?</p><p>(Also, Bioshock is a terrible example, since it's a spiritual successor to a legendary RPG, System Shock 2. In many ways, Bioshock was SS2 dumbed down with more 'FPS elements'. Now shush.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The removal of mod tools is because Infinity Ward are a bunch of PC-hating cocktards.What that has to do with " RPG elements " is presumably left as an exercise to the reader ?
( Also , Bioshock is a terrible example , since it 's a spiritual successor to a legendary RPG , System Shock 2 .
In many ways , Bioshock was SS2 dumbed down with more 'FPS elements' .
Now shush .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The removal of mod tools is because Infinity Ward are a bunch of PC-hating cocktards.What that has to do with "RPG elements" is presumably left as an exercise to the reader?
(Also, Bioshock is a terrible example, since it's a spiritual successor to a legendary RPG, System Shock 2.
In many ways, Bioshock was SS2 dumbed down with more 'FPS elements'.
Now shush.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30837266</id>
	<title>Options?</title>
	<author>rident</author>
	<datestamp>1263980820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How about present a few options instead of offering complaints to complaints people? I know there are some current, fun, "mind-buster" style games out there. I would recommend Braid or Machinarium as interesting, side-scrolling, indie puzzle games. Racing has it's niche in competence also with series like Gran Turismo. FPS is a twitch sport but that doesn't mean the need to think isn't there. Check out games like ARMA2, Americas Army 3, or Resistance and Liberation for more teamwork, realism, strategy. I hope my list is enjoyed, these are just a few of the current games that one could get into which do require a bit of thought not to die, crash, get stuck, and/or lose. Any suggestions for the RPG, RTS, flight sim, or other category that I missed?</htmltext>
<tokenext>How about present a few options instead of offering complaints to complaints people ?
I know there are some current , fun , " mind-buster " style games out there .
I would recommend Braid or Machinarium as interesting , side-scrolling , indie puzzle games .
Racing has it 's niche in competence also with series like Gran Turismo .
FPS is a twitch sport but that does n't mean the need to think is n't there .
Check out games like ARMA2 , Americas Army 3 , or Resistance and Liberation for more teamwork , realism , strategy .
I hope my list is enjoyed , these are just a few of the current games that one could get into which do require a bit of thought not to die , crash , get stuck , and/or lose .
Any suggestions for the RPG , RTS , flight sim , or other category that I missed ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about present a few options instead of offering complaints to complaints people?
I know there are some current, fun, "mind-buster" style games out there.
I would recommend Braid or Machinarium as interesting, side-scrolling, indie puzzle games.
Racing has it's niche in competence also with series like Gran Turismo.
FPS is a twitch sport but that doesn't mean the need to think isn't there.
Check out games like ARMA2, Americas Army 3, or Resistance and Liberation for more teamwork, realism, strategy.
I hope my list is enjoyed, these are just a few of the current games that one could get into which do require a bit of thought not to die, crash, get stuck, and/or lose.
Any suggestions for the RPG, RTS, flight sim, or other category that I missed?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831926</id>
	<title>Mod Parent Up</title>
	<author>Fozzyuw</author>
	<datestamp>1264003080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think the article was rather interesting.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the article was rather interesting .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the article was rather interesting.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830338</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830850</id>
	<title>it's all about controlling the market</title>
	<author>Aceticon</author>
	<datestamp>1263997200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Removing of Mod Tools is all about controlling shelf-life for games and monopolising the market for extensions/enhancements for those game.</p><p>It's all a business decision - outside MMOs, the current way that Game Producers (want to) do business is:</p><ul><li>Milk a franchise for as long as you can by periodically releasing newer versions of the same game</li><li>Have extra post-sale revenue by selling extras for the game (DLC)</li></ul><p>In that sense, user mods are "bad for business" since they:</p><ul><li>Extend the life of an existing version of a game with free content, thus reducing the appeal for gamers to buy newer versions</li><li>Provide <b>free</b> new content for the game which competes with the paid for content that the Game Produces wants to sell</li></ul><p>Games having more RPG elements does relate to the decision of removing Mod Tools in the sense that for RPGs the enjoyement of the game is also related to it's content (as in, zones to explore, items to collect, monsters to fight and levels/abilities to unlock), and thus:</p><ul><li>In single-player/social-light games, user enjoyment decreases fast once all content has been explored. Without user mods, this means that the lifetime of a game is solelly under the control of the Game Producer</li><li>A more content heavy type of game is also a game with more opportunity for things like sales of game items, zones and levels. No user mods mean that the Game Producer has a monopoly on this</li></ul><p>So I do agree with the TFA that no Mod Tools and more RPG elements are correlated, although maybe not in the way they see it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Removing of Mod Tools is all about controlling shelf-life for games and monopolising the market for extensions/enhancements for those game.It 's all a business decision - outside MMOs , the current way that Game Producers ( want to ) do business is : Milk a franchise for as long as you can by periodically releasing newer versions of the same gameHave extra post-sale revenue by selling extras for the game ( DLC ) In that sense , user mods are " bad for business " since they : Extend the life of an existing version of a game with free content , thus reducing the appeal for gamers to buy newer versionsProvide free new content for the game which competes with the paid for content that the Game Produces wants to sellGames having more RPG elements does relate to the decision of removing Mod Tools in the sense that for RPGs the enjoyement of the game is also related to it 's content ( as in , zones to explore , items to collect , monsters to fight and levels/abilities to unlock ) , and thus : In single-player/social-light games , user enjoyment decreases fast once all content has been explored .
Without user mods , this means that the lifetime of a game is solelly under the control of the Game ProducerA more content heavy type of game is also a game with more opportunity for things like sales of game items , zones and levels .
No user mods mean that the Game Producer has a monopoly on thisSo I do agree with the TFA that no Mod Tools and more RPG elements are correlated , although maybe not in the way they see it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Removing of Mod Tools is all about controlling shelf-life for games and monopolising the market for extensions/enhancements for those game.It's all a business decision - outside MMOs, the current way that Game Producers (want to) do business is:Milk a franchise for as long as you can by periodically releasing newer versions of the same gameHave extra post-sale revenue by selling extras for the game (DLC)In that sense, user mods are "bad for business" since they:Extend the life of an existing version of a game with free content, thus reducing the appeal for gamers to buy newer versionsProvide free new content for the game which competes with the paid for content that the Game Produces wants to sellGames having more RPG elements does relate to the decision of removing Mod Tools in the sense that for RPGs the enjoyement of the game is also related to it's content (as in, zones to explore, items to collect, monsters to fight and levels/abilities to unlock), and thus:In single-player/social-light games, user enjoyment decreases fast once all content has been explored.
Without user mods, this means that the lifetime of a game is solelly under the control of the Game ProducerA more content heavy type of game is also a game with more opportunity for things like sales of game items, zones and levels.
No user mods mean that the Game Producer has a monopoly on thisSo I do agree with the TFA that no Mod Tools and more RPG elements are correlated, although maybe not in the way they see it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830324</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830292</id>
	<title>RPG?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263990660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I must admit I rarely play these games but I thought all of them had Rocket Propelled Grenades in them since Doom?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I must admit I rarely play these games but I thought all of them had Rocket Propelled Grenades in them since Doom ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I must admit I rarely play these games but I thought all of them had Rocket Propelled Grenades in them since Doom?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30844028</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>Jesus\_666</author>
	<datestamp>1264073460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>System Shock 2 (not sure about 1) is a good example - it has an editor and a once-thriving modding scene. In fact, it would probably still thrive if the game wasn't completely unstable on any operating system after Windows 98.</htmltext>
<tokenext>System Shock 2 ( not sure about 1 ) is a good example - it has an editor and a once-thriving modding scene .
In fact , it would probably still thrive if the game was n't completely unstable on any operating system after Windows 98 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>System Shock 2 (not sure about 1) is a good example - it has an editor and a once-thriving modding scene.
In fact, it would probably still thrive if the game wasn't completely unstable on any operating system after Windows 98.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830324</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30842834</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264014060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>This isn't to say this has not been done before, but RPG/RTS mechanics are not something seen often in modern games.</p></div><p>I'd imagine we haven't seen too many RPG/RTS hybrids because, let's be honest - RTS's haven't necessarily been a high selling genre in recent times.  By making an RPG that uses RTS mechanics (or vice versa), you're basically fractioning an already fractioned fanbase.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is n't to say this has not been done before , but RPG/RTS mechanics are not something seen often in modern games.I 'd imagine we have n't seen too many RPG/RTS hybrids because , let 's be honest - RTS 's have n't necessarily been a high selling genre in recent times .
By making an RPG that uses RTS mechanics ( or vice versa ) , you 're basically fractioning an already fractioned fanbase .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This isn't to say this has not been done before, but RPG/RTS mechanics are not something seen often in modern games.I'd imagine we haven't seen too many RPG/RTS hybrids because, let's be honest - RTS's haven't necessarily been a high selling genre in recent times.
By making an RPG that uses RTS mechanics (or vice versa), you're basically fractioning an already fractioned fanbase.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830566</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830426</id>
	<title>Incoherent summary</title>
	<author>pangu</author>
	<datestamp>1263992040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What does adding RPG elements have to do with removing tools for modding a game? That's right, nothing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What does adding RPG elements have to do with removing tools for modding a game ?
That 's right , nothing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What does adding RPG elements have to do with removing tools for modding a game?
That's right, nothing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30834232</id>
	<title>Re:RPG elements? Where?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264011660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If I had mod points... there are no specific RPG elements to these games,</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If I had mod points... there are no specific RPG elements to these games,</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I had mod points... there are no specific RPG elements to these games,</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831106</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30844126</id>
	<title>Re:Two issues here</title>
	<author>Jesus\_666</author>
	<datestamp>1264074360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The first, simply put, is a "hot coffee" reaction. As certain countries (eg. Germany and Australia) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content, developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised (or sued) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod.</p></div></blockquote><p>Note that neither Germany nor Australia are at fault here. it's the United States.<br>
<br>
Germany doesn't care about modding. Color all the blood green and remove and swastikas your game might contain and maybe tone down the gibbing a bit. Done*. We don't care if your game has tits or whether people can mod them in. We don't care whether people can use a game company-provided editor to make people bleed gallons of blood in swastika patterns. That's user-generated content and we pass our age restrictions based on what's in the package. I mean, we don't even care if there's a cheat code you can enter to turn blood back on (in fact, for a while "blood cheat" wa a staple of a German gamer's vocabulary). If the game as delivered doesn't have red blood and gibbing it's not that violent period.<br>
<br>
In the USA, however, your game can end up getting torn to pieces because you have a modding tool that theoretically allows people to add nude textures to ingame characters. Somehow that affects people's opinions on the game. And suddenly the publisher has a case against releasing the dev tools.<br>
<br>
<br>
* Granted, depictions of excessive violence dont need blood to net the game a restriction over here. But as long as you don't make a Manhunt clone you should be fairly safe.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The first , simply put , is a " hot coffee " reaction .
As certain countries ( eg .
Germany and Australia ) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content , developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised ( or sued ) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod.Note that neither Germany nor Australia are at fault here .
it 's the United States .
Germany does n't care about modding .
Color all the blood green and remove and swastikas your game might contain and maybe tone down the gibbing a bit .
Done * . We do n't care if your game has tits or whether people can mod them in .
We do n't care whether people can use a game company-provided editor to make people bleed gallons of blood in swastika patterns .
That 's user-generated content and we pass our age restrictions based on what 's in the package .
I mean , we do n't even care if there 's a cheat code you can enter to turn blood back on ( in fact , for a while " blood cheat " wa a staple of a German gamer 's vocabulary ) .
If the game as delivered does n't have red blood and gibbing it 's not that violent period .
In the USA , however , your game can end up getting torn to pieces because you have a modding tool that theoretically allows people to add nude textures to ingame characters .
Somehow that affects people 's opinions on the game .
And suddenly the publisher has a case against releasing the dev tools .
* Granted , depictions of excessive violence dont need blood to net the game a restriction over here .
But as long as you do n't make a Manhunt clone you should be fairly safe .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The first, simply put, is a "hot coffee" reaction.
As certain countries (eg.
Germany and Australia) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content, developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised (or sued) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod.Note that neither Germany nor Australia are at fault here.
it's the United States.
Germany doesn't care about modding.
Color all the blood green and remove and swastikas your game might contain and maybe tone down the gibbing a bit.
Done*. We don't care if your game has tits or whether people can mod them in.
We don't care whether people can use a game company-provided editor to make people bleed gallons of blood in swastika patterns.
That's user-generated content and we pass our age restrictions based on what's in the package.
I mean, we don't even care if there's a cheat code you can enter to turn blood back on (in fact, for a while "blood cheat" wa a staple of a German gamer's vocabulary).
If the game as delivered doesn't have red blood and gibbing it's not that violent period.
In the USA, however, your game can end up getting torn to pieces because you have a modding tool that theoretically allows people to add nude textures to ingame characters.
Somehow that affects people's opinions on the game.
And suddenly the publisher has a case against releasing the dev tools.
* Granted, depictions of excessive violence dont need blood to net the game a restriction over here.
But as long as you don't make a Manhunt clone you should be fairly safe.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830384</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830566</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>mlts</author>
	<datestamp>1263993900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This has been going on for a long time.  If one stretched things, they could say that World of Warcraft is a FPS with an extreme number of powerups.  However, FPS is a concept is a known quantity.  You put out something in this type of genre, and you will almost certainly break even at the minimum.</p><p>Finding new ways to do a RPG combat system is hard.  There are not that many ways to do combat, so FPS mechanics is one of the most used.  Turn by turn combat used to be the RPG mainstay, but for many people, it is too slow a method of resolving conflict.  There are other combat systems, but if a game relies too much on arcade reflexes, it might turn people away.</p><p>For single player, most likely the best bet for a modern RPG these days would be a system used by NWN and NWN2, where people can pause the action before making their next decision, but if they know what exactly is going on, can still do an almost real-time battle.</p><p>What I've not seen that much of are RPGs with RTS mechanics.  Picture having your group of people that you start out with at a beginning of the game, and each of them has some ability and weakness.  There would have to be more plot and character development for an RPG to separate it from Warcraft 1-3 (adding multiple endings, having side quests), but it could be done.</p><p>One scenario using these type of mechanics could be pushing back some orcs [1] who are pillaging some nearby villages.  You send in some scouts to see what exactly their weaknesses are (one village has an orc wizard fireballing buildings.  Another has an orc chieftain who keeps his band up with heals.  Still another has a warrior chieftain.)  Then you send whatever guys you have that would be the best against the type of enemy at hand.  With different playstyles, one could have a lot of grunt troops and just swarm the villages, send in ranged troops (with some melee in front as a distraction), or perhaps even find a way to use some type of negotiating skill to get the orc tribal leaders to accept a keg of ogre swill as treasure enough so they stop their invasion.</p><p>Another scenario could be a castle siege.  You have your forces and need to punch a hole in the castle walls, while fending off forces coming from other sides.  Part of the RPG would be doing side quests.  One side quest earns you better siege engines.  Another gets enemy troops to not join in on the fight.  Still another side quest just might allow the player to earn such a famous/infamous reputation that they can just bypass the siege altogether and have the opposing side open the doors and surrender.</p><p>This isn't to say this has not been done before, but RPG/RTS mechanics are not something seen often in modern games.  What sets RPGs apart from "plain old" RTS/FPS games is having multiple endings, multiple side quests, and different consequences for player actions.  For example, if a PC is an extremely good diplomat, it may allow for some battles to be skipped or handled in a different way.  Similar if a PC does side quests for a reputation.  Throwing in some mini-games [2] may be the answer here as a way to help (perhaps use the RTS engine so the player can work as a mercenary general in order to help your side get land or resources in between plot advances.)</p><p>[1]:  Classic AD&amp;D/LoTR orcs which would be more than happy to stuff any intelligent race in a stewpot.  Except dwarves.  They are just too hard to clean.</p><p>[2]:  One recent mini-game I liked was the Risk-like one in James Cameron's "Avatar".  It was fairly tough because you had very little territory at the start, so you could either play your chances slowly, or start the mini game every so often, because you got more money as the main game progressed.  Mini games have to be done right though.  For example, the card one in FF8 a lot of players just skipped for the most part.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This has been going on for a long time .
If one stretched things , they could say that World of Warcraft is a FPS with an extreme number of powerups .
However , FPS is a concept is a known quantity .
You put out something in this type of genre , and you will almost certainly break even at the minimum.Finding new ways to do a RPG combat system is hard .
There are not that many ways to do combat , so FPS mechanics is one of the most used .
Turn by turn combat used to be the RPG mainstay , but for many people , it is too slow a method of resolving conflict .
There are other combat systems , but if a game relies too much on arcade reflexes , it might turn people away.For single player , most likely the best bet for a modern RPG these days would be a system used by NWN and NWN2 , where people can pause the action before making their next decision , but if they know what exactly is going on , can still do an almost real-time battle.What I 've not seen that much of are RPGs with RTS mechanics .
Picture having your group of people that you start out with at a beginning of the game , and each of them has some ability and weakness .
There would have to be more plot and character development for an RPG to separate it from Warcraft 1-3 ( adding multiple endings , having side quests ) , but it could be done.One scenario using these type of mechanics could be pushing back some orcs [ 1 ] who are pillaging some nearby villages .
You send in some scouts to see what exactly their weaknesses are ( one village has an orc wizard fireballing buildings .
Another has an orc chieftain who keeps his band up with heals .
Still another has a warrior chieftain .
) Then you send whatever guys you have that would be the best against the type of enemy at hand .
With different playstyles , one could have a lot of grunt troops and just swarm the villages , send in ranged troops ( with some melee in front as a distraction ) , or perhaps even find a way to use some type of negotiating skill to get the orc tribal leaders to accept a keg of ogre swill as treasure enough so they stop their invasion.Another scenario could be a castle siege .
You have your forces and need to punch a hole in the castle walls , while fending off forces coming from other sides .
Part of the RPG would be doing side quests .
One side quest earns you better siege engines .
Another gets enemy troops to not join in on the fight .
Still another side quest just might allow the player to earn such a famous/infamous reputation that they can just bypass the siege altogether and have the opposing side open the doors and surrender.This is n't to say this has not been done before , but RPG/RTS mechanics are not something seen often in modern games .
What sets RPGs apart from " plain old " RTS/FPS games is having multiple endings , multiple side quests , and different consequences for player actions .
For example , if a PC is an extremely good diplomat , it may allow for some battles to be skipped or handled in a different way .
Similar if a PC does side quests for a reputation .
Throwing in some mini-games [ 2 ] may be the answer here as a way to help ( perhaps use the RTS engine so the player can work as a mercenary general in order to help your side get land or resources in between plot advances .
) [ 1 ] : Classic AD&amp;D/LoTR orcs which would be more than happy to stuff any intelligent race in a stewpot .
Except dwarves .
They are just too hard to clean .
[ 2 ] : One recent mini-game I liked was the Risk-like one in James Cameron 's " Avatar " .
It was fairly tough because you had very little territory at the start , so you could either play your chances slowly , or start the mini game every so often , because you got more money as the main game progressed .
Mini games have to be done right though .
For example , the card one in FF8 a lot of players just skipped for the most part .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This has been going on for a long time.
If one stretched things, they could say that World of Warcraft is a FPS with an extreme number of powerups.
However, FPS is a concept is a known quantity.
You put out something in this type of genre, and you will almost certainly break even at the minimum.Finding new ways to do a RPG combat system is hard.
There are not that many ways to do combat, so FPS mechanics is one of the most used.
Turn by turn combat used to be the RPG mainstay, but for many people, it is too slow a method of resolving conflict.
There are other combat systems, but if a game relies too much on arcade reflexes, it might turn people away.For single player, most likely the best bet for a modern RPG these days would be a system used by NWN and NWN2, where people can pause the action before making their next decision, but if they know what exactly is going on, can still do an almost real-time battle.What I've not seen that much of are RPGs with RTS mechanics.
Picture having your group of people that you start out with at a beginning of the game, and each of them has some ability and weakness.
There would have to be more plot and character development for an RPG to separate it from Warcraft 1-3 (adding multiple endings, having side quests), but it could be done.One scenario using these type of mechanics could be pushing back some orcs [1] who are pillaging some nearby villages.
You send in some scouts to see what exactly their weaknesses are (one village has an orc wizard fireballing buildings.
Another has an orc chieftain who keeps his band up with heals.
Still another has a warrior chieftain.
)  Then you send whatever guys you have that would be the best against the type of enemy at hand.
With different playstyles, one could have a lot of grunt troops and just swarm the villages, send in ranged troops (with some melee in front as a distraction), or perhaps even find a way to use some type of negotiating skill to get the orc tribal leaders to accept a keg of ogre swill as treasure enough so they stop their invasion.Another scenario could be a castle siege.
You have your forces and need to punch a hole in the castle walls, while fending off forces coming from other sides.
Part of the RPG would be doing side quests.
One side quest earns you better siege engines.
Another gets enemy troops to not join in on the fight.
Still another side quest just might allow the player to earn such a famous/infamous reputation that they can just bypass the siege altogether and have the opposing side open the doors and surrender.This isn't to say this has not been done before, but RPG/RTS mechanics are not something seen often in modern games.
What sets RPGs apart from "plain old" RTS/FPS games is having multiple endings, multiple side quests, and different consequences for player actions.
For example, if a PC is an extremely good diplomat, it may allow for some battles to be skipped or handled in a different way.
Similar if a PC does side quests for a reputation.
Throwing in some mini-games [2] may be the answer here as a way to help (perhaps use the RTS engine so the player can work as a mercenary general in order to help your side get land or resources in between plot advances.
)[1]:  Classic AD&amp;D/LoTR orcs which would be more than happy to stuff any intelligent race in a stewpot.
Except dwarves.
They are just too hard to clean.
[2]:  One recent mini-game I liked was the Risk-like one in James Cameron's "Avatar".
It was fairly tough because you had very little territory at the start, so you could either play your chances slowly, or start the mini game every so often, because you got more money as the main game progressed.
Mini games have to be done right though.
For example, the card one in FF8 a lot of players just skipped for the most part.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830324</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831106</id>
	<title>RPG elements? Where?</title>
	<author>YourExperiment</author>
	<datestamp>1263999180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>RPG elements are creeping into game genres that we never imagined they would</p></div><p>No they're not. Games like <i>Deus Ex</i>, like <i>System Shock</i> and <i>System Shock 2</i> had RPG elements - games that were truly a clever blend of genres that worked perfectly. Shooting action along with a bit of thought too.</p><p>The dumbing down started with consoles and <i>Deus Ex 2</i>. It was completed in <i>BioShock</i>. Awesome graphics, great atmosphere, an interesting story, but hardly any RPG elements to speak of. Any trace of RPG elements in (non-RPG) games these days are so watered down that they just dilute the fun of the shooter, rather than adding any element of challenge of their own.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>RPG elements are creeping into game genres that we never imagined they wouldNo they 're not .
Games like Deus Ex , like System Shock and System Shock 2 had RPG elements - games that were truly a clever blend of genres that worked perfectly .
Shooting action along with a bit of thought too.The dumbing down started with consoles and Deus Ex 2 .
It was completed in BioShock .
Awesome graphics , great atmosphere , an interesting story , but hardly any RPG elements to speak of .
Any trace of RPG elements in ( non-RPG ) games these days are so watered down that they just dilute the fun of the shooter , rather than adding any element of challenge of their own .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>RPG elements are creeping into game genres that we never imagined they wouldNo they're not.
Games like Deus Ex, like System Shock and System Shock 2 had RPG elements - games that were truly a clever blend of genres that worked perfectly.
Shooting action along with a bit of thought too.The dumbing down started with consoles and Deus Ex 2.
It was completed in BioShock.
Awesome graphics, great atmosphere, an interesting story, but hardly any RPG elements to speak of.
Any trace of RPG elements in (non-RPG) games these days are so watered down that they just dilute the fun of the shooter, rather than adding any element of challenge of their own.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831204</id>
	<title>Re:Love</title>
	<author>malkavian</author>
	<datestamp>1263999660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The team behind "Duke Nukem Forever" must really love the game..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The team behind " Duke Nukem Forever " must really love the game. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The team behind "Duke Nukem Forever" must really love the game..</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830488</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30834760</id>
	<title>Re:Really? What are RPG elements?</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1264013880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>umm.. no.</p><p>"A roleplaying game is a game where the players actions and choices have a meaningful and lasting effect on the game world and that world changes as a response to it"</p><p>When as it been that? never in computer games, and it will be a while before it can be.</p><p>For the WHOLE history of computer games an RPG has been about Stats and Stuff. (heh, I should create a RPG called Stats and Stuff"</p><p>In a truer sense, roleplaying is about the actions of the player tempered within the boundaries of the game. Pong could be a roleplaying game if it was played by two people that wanted it to be. One player could pretend to be Agassi, the other Macenroe.</p><p>" Mechanics are separate from the genre"<br>two points about that:<br>1) Some mechanics can help enforce a genre.</p><p>2) the Genre is irrelevant. Any Genre can be used for Role playing.</p><p>Desslock seems to get a hard on from subtly changing the details of the definition to feel superior, and he also will nit pick, often without merit, anything that's different then the game he is currently stroking off to.</p><p>Stupid Kobold.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>umm. .
no. " A roleplaying game is a game where the players actions and choices have a meaningful and lasting effect on the game world and that world changes as a response to it " When as it been that ?
never in computer games , and it will be a while before it can be.For the WHOLE history of computer games an RPG has been about Stats and Stuff .
( heh , I should create a RPG called Stats and Stuff " In a truer sense , roleplaying is about the actions of the player tempered within the boundaries of the game .
Pong could be a roleplaying game if it was played by two people that wanted it to be .
One player could pretend to be Agassi , the other Macenroe .
" Mechanics are separate from the genre " two points about that : 1 ) Some mechanics can help enforce a genre.2 ) the Genre is irrelevant .
Any Genre can be used for Role playing.Desslock seems to get a hard on from subtly changing the details of the definition to feel superior , and he also will nit pick , often without merit , anything that 's different then the game he is currently stroking off to.Stupid Kobold .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>umm..
no."A roleplaying game is a game where the players actions and choices have a meaningful and lasting effect on the game world and that world changes as a response to it"When as it been that?
never in computer games, and it will be a while before it can be.For the WHOLE history of computer games an RPG has been about Stats and Stuff.
(heh, I should create a RPG called Stats and Stuff"In a truer sense, roleplaying is about the actions of the player tempered within the boundaries of the game.
Pong could be a roleplaying game if it was played by two people that wanted it to be.
One player could pretend to be Agassi, the other Macenroe.
" Mechanics are separate from the genre"two points about that:1) Some mechanics can help enforce a genre.2) the Genre is irrelevant.
Any Genre can be used for Role playing.Desslock seems to get a hard on from subtly changing the details of the definition to feel superior, and he also will nit pick, often without merit, anything that's different then the game he is currently stroking off to.Stupid Kobold.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831620</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30834600</id>
	<title>Re:Two issues here</title>
	<author>DavidTC</author>
	<datestamp>1264013160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The first point you make is simply a generalized point: Gaming genres are increasingly blending as makers attempt to sell to a broader market.</p><p>
You won't find many pure adventure games, either, or pure FPSs.</p><p>
I'm not entirely sure why this is is, and I don't really like it, but thinking it's solely about, and happening to, RPGs, show some sort of weird RPG tunnel vision.</p><p>
Hell, it happened to adventure games in the <b>90s</b>. They all got action elements, and FPS started incorporating adventure elements willy-nilly, like Half-Life did.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The first point you make is simply a generalized point : Gaming genres are increasingly blending as makers attempt to sell to a broader market .
You wo n't find many pure adventure games , either , or pure FPSs .
I 'm not entirely sure why this is is , and I do n't really like it , but thinking it 's solely about , and happening to , RPGs , show some sort of weird RPG tunnel vision .
Hell , it happened to adventure games in the 90s .
They all got action elements , and FPS started incorporating adventure elements willy-nilly , like Half-Life did .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The first point you make is simply a generalized point: Gaming genres are increasingly blending as makers attempt to sell to a broader market.
You won't find many pure adventure games, either, or pure FPSs.
I'm not entirely sure why this is is, and I don't really like it, but thinking it's solely about, and happening to, RPGs, show some sort of weird RPG tunnel vision.
Hell, it happened to adventure games in the 90s.
They all got action elements, and FPS started incorporating adventure elements willy-nilly, like Half-Life did.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830384</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30842296</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264009560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Appealing to the lowest common denominator style of gameplay?  I thought that was Nintendo's strategy...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Appealing to the lowest common denominator style of gameplay ?
I thought that was Nintendo 's strategy.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Appealing to the lowest common denominator style of gameplay?
I thought that was Nintendo's strategy...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830324</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830434</id>
	<title>Enough of FPS?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263992100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well. It seems reasonable to me after decade of playing FPS. You know there are only 2 types of FPS. "Shoot everything that moves" and "Shoot everything".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well .
It seems reasonable to me after decade of playing FPS .
You know there are only 2 types of FPS .
" Shoot everything that moves " and " Shoot everything " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well.
It seems reasonable to me after decade of playing FPS.
You know there are only 2 types of FPS.
"Shoot everything that moves" and "Shoot everything".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830674</id>
	<title>Re:WTF?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263995340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Same anonymous coward you replied to here. Thanks for your clarification.</p><p>So, nowadays RPG == character progression. I was asuming that RPG was about role playing, but I must be getting old.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Same anonymous coward you replied to here .
Thanks for your clarification.So , nowadays RPG = = character progression .
I was asuming that RPG was about role playing , but I must be getting old .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Same anonymous coward you replied to here.
Thanks for your clarification.So, nowadays RPG == character progression.
I was asuming that RPG was about role playing, but I must be getting old.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831224</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263999780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>i for one am glad to see the genres mixing up. i've always liked rpg games, but less so fps unless they were very story driven. the main game i'm playing now is fallen earth, which mixes fps combat into an mmorpg, admitedly not the most high grade of fps but the whole thing of being able to craft your own weapons, ammo and armour and having some advantage by being a good fps player (headshots do more damage) one gets the best of both to some degree. it's not really anything new anyway, x3, for example, mixes up space combat with rpg elements and that's not really a very new game. the rpg elements are a nice feature of the s.t.a.l.k.e.r. games as well, but it doesn't go far enough and left me craving for a full blown mmorpg/fps with faction war... then i found out a similar kind of game already exists. however the combat in stalker games is much more realistic, with proper animations and full time first person view and realistic ballistics and weapon reload times and weapon switching.</p><p>also gta3 onwards mixes up first and third person melee and firearms combat with story, silly 'fun' games like darts and bowling and dance game type sub-games as well as racing and flying. i think it is not anything other than a product of the increase in capability of game hardware and software that allows multiple game mechanics to be blended together.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>i for one am glad to see the genres mixing up .
i 've always liked rpg games , but less so fps unless they were very story driven .
the main game i 'm playing now is fallen earth , which mixes fps combat into an mmorpg , admitedly not the most high grade of fps but the whole thing of being able to craft your own weapons , ammo and armour and having some advantage by being a good fps player ( headshots do more damage ) one gets the best of both to some degree .
it 's not really anything new anyway , x3 , for example , mixes up space combat with rpg elements and that 's not really a very new game .
the rpg elements are a nice feature of the s.t.a.l.k.e.r .
games as well , but it does n't go far enough and left me craving for a full blown mmorpg/fps with faction war... then i found out a similar kind of game already exists .
however the combat in stalker games is much more realistic , with proper animations and full time first person view and realistic ballistics and weapon reload times and weapon switching.also gta3 onwards mixes up first and third person melee and firearms combat with story , silly 'fun ' games like darts and bowling and dance game type sub-games as well as racing and flying .
i think it is not anything other than a product of the increase in capability of game hardware and software that allows multiple game mechanics to be blended together .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i for one am glad to see the genres mixing up.
i've always liked rpg games, but less so fps unless they were very story driven.
the main game i'm playing now is fallen earth, which mixes fps combat into an mmorpg, admitedly not the most high grade of fps but the whole thing of being able to craft your own weapons, ammo and armour and having some advantage by being a good fps player (headshots do more damage) one gets the best of both to some degree.
it's not really anything new anyway, x3, for example, mixes up space combat with rpg elements and that's not really a very new game.
the rpg elements are a nice feature of the s.t.a.l.k.e.r.
games as well, but it doesn't go far enough and left me craving for a full blown mmorpg/fps with faction war... then i found out a similar kind of game already exists.
however the combat in stalker games is much more realistic, with proper animations and full time first person view and realistic ballistics and weapon reload times and weapon switching.also gta3 onwards mixes up first and third person melee and firearms combat with story, silly 'fun' games like darts and bowling and dance game type sub-games as well as racing and flying.
i think it is not anything other than a product of the increase in capability of game hardware and software that allows multiple game mechanics to be blended together.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830324</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30834264</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>DavidTC</author>
	<datestamp>1264011720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Um, no. It's an action RPG game. or 'real time RPG', or 'FPS RPG'.(1)</p><p>
An action adventure game where problem solving skills, not just combat, are needed to get around. And it also requires 'combat', or at least real time stuff.</p><p>
An action game (Specifically, an FPS) with enough problem solving required to be 'action adventure' is Half Life. An adventure game with enough action sequences to be 'action adventure' is 'The Indigo Prophesy'.</p><p>
I know you're some sort of RPG purist, but there is, in fact, a genre of games called 'adventure' and a mixed genre called 'action adventure' that introduces real-time elements to <b>the adventure genre</b>, and people are fans of <b>those</b> games, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't try to stick blended genre RPGs in it.</p><p>
Incidentally, I have to laugh at the 'real time' complaint. I've got several RPGs, and most of them will pause when combat starts, if you so want. All games by Bioware, one of the major RPG producers, will do it. It's just the MMORPGs that won't do that, because they have no pause at all.</p><p>
So if your complaint is solely that, it's sorta stupid. Yes, they no longer sell games that require 'turn-based walking around', because 99\% of the population finds that very annoying. But many of them let you do turn-based <b>combat</b>. (Perhaps it's worth mentioning that non-computer RPGs like D&amp;D don't care much about 'turns' except in combat or other time sensitive situations, either.) Likewise, the reason they don't have turned-based MMORPGs is that people won't put up with the delay waiting for their turn. (Those people are all over playing Civ 4.)</p><p>
If you want to argue that 'RPG', by itself, means turn-based RPG, and non-turned-based ones should be called 'action RPGs' or something, fine, I got no problem with that. Don't try to stick them in with action adventure games, though. And arguing non-turned-based ones aren't RPGs <b>at all</b> is just silly.</p><p>
1) 'Action' games are 'reflex based' games, or 'real time' games, where you have to do things in a critical amount of time or you lose. Some people consider FPSs and platformers and whatnot a sub-genre of this, some people arguing that those are rightfully genres by themselves, and 'action' is whatever is left over. This argument isn't very important, I'm just mentioning what I use 'action' to mean.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Um , no .
It 's an action RPG game .
or 'real time RPG ' , or 'FPS RPG' .
( 1 ) An action adventure game where problem solving skills , not just combat , are needed to get around .
And it also requires 'combat ' , or at least real time stuff .
An action game ( Specifically , an FPS ) with enough problem solving required to be 'action adventure ' is Half Life .
An adventure game with enough action sequences to be 'action adventure ' is 'The Indigo Prophesy' .
I know you 're some sort of RPG purist , but there is , in fact , a genre of games called 'adventure ' and a mixed genre called 'action adventure ' that introduces real-time elements to the adventure genre , and people are fans of those games , and we 'd appreciate it if you did n't try to stick blended genre RPGs in it .
Incidentally , I have to laugh at the 'real time ' complaint .
I 've got several RPGs , and most of them will pause when combat starts , if you so want .
All games by Bioware , one of the major RPG producers , will do it .
It 's just the MMORPGs that wo n't do that , because they have no pause at all .
So if your complaint is solely that , it 's sorta stupid .
Yes , they no longer sell games that require 'turn-based walking around ' , because 99 \ % of the population finds that very annoying .
But many of them let you do turn-based combat .
( Perhaps it 's worth mentioning that non-computer RPGs like D&amp;D do n't care much about 'turns ' except in combat or other time sensitive situations , either .
) Likewise , the reason they do n't have turned-based MMORPGs is that people wo n't put up with the delay waiting for their turn .
( Those people are all over playing Civ 4 .
) If you want to argue that 'RPG ' , by itself , means turn-based RPG , and non-turned-based ones should be called 'action RPGs ' or something , fine , I got no problem with that .
Do n't try to stick them in with action adventure games , though .
And arguing non-turned-based ones are n't RPGs at all is just silly .
1 ) 'Action ' games are 'reflex based ' games , or 'real time ' games , where you have to do things in a critical amount of time or you lose .
Some people consider FPSs and platformers and whatnot a sub-genre of this , some people arguing that those are rightfully genres by themselves , and 'action ' is whatever is left over .
This argument is n't very important , I 'm just mentioning what I use 'action ' to mean .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Um, no.
It's an action RPG game.
or 'real time RPG', or 'FPS RPG'.
(1)
An action adventure game where problem solving skills, not just combat, are needed to get around.
And it also requires 'combat', or at least real time stuff.
An action game (Specifically, an FPS) with enough problem solving required to be 'action adventure' is Half Life.
An adventure game with enough action sequences to be 'action adventure' is 'The Indigo Prophesy'.
I know you're some sort of RPG purist, but there is, in fact, a genre of games called 'adventure' and a mixed genre called 'action adventure' that introduces real-time elements to the adventure genre, and people are fans of those games, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't try to stick blended genre RPGs in it.
Incidentally, I have to laugh at the 'real time' complaint.
I've got several RPGs, and most of them will pause when combat starts, if you so want.
All games by Bioware, one of the major RPG producers, will do it.
It's just the MMORPGs that won't do that, because they have no pause at all.
So if your complaint is solely that, it's sorta stupid.
Yes, they no longer sell games that require 'turn-based walking around', because 99\% of the population finds that very annoying.
But many of them let you do turn-based combat.
(Perhaps it's worth mentioning that non-computer RPGs like D&amp;D don't care much about 'turns' except in combat or other time sensitive situations, either.
) Likewise, the reason they don't have turned-based MMORPGs is that people won't put up with the delay waiting for their turn.
(Those people are all over playing Civ 4.
)
If you want to argue that 'RPG', by itself, means turn-based RPG, and non-turned-based ones should be called 'action RPGs' or something, fine, I got no problem with that.
Don't try to stick them in with action adventure games, though.
And arguing non-turned-based ones aren't RPGs at all is just silly.
1) 'Action' games are 'reflex based' games, or 'real time' games, where you have to do things in a critical amount of time or you lose.
Some people consider FPSs and platformers and whatnot a sub-genre of this, some people arguing that those are rightfully genres by themselves, and 'action' is whatever is left over.
This argument isn't very important, I'm just mentioning what I use 'action' to mean.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831974</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30832188</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>dosilegecko</author>
	<datestamp>1264004280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think people enjoy character building, rather than skill building. Nowadays developers may see that players get more of a rewarding feeling if their crappy character becomes strong so that the difficulty of the game stays about the same the way through, even though the enemies/challenges are getting tougher. This is in contrast to your character staying crappy, but you, the gamer, get better and eventually are able to beat the harder parts. Its a case of growth of character VS. growth of player, and its easier or seen as more profitable to cater to the character building.

These RPG elements are just a way of taking the stress of improving off of the player, and placing it on their character. It makes for a more casual gaming experience.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think people enjoy character building , rather than skill building .
Nowadays developers may see that players get more of a rewarding feeling if their crappy character becomes strong so that the difficulty of the game stays about the same the way through , even though the enemies/challenges are getting tougher .
This is in contrast to your character staying crappy , but you , the gamer , get better and eventually are able to beat the harder parts .
Its a case of growth of character VS. growth of player , and its easier or seen as more profitable to cater to the character building .
These RPG elements are just a way of taking the stress of improving off of the player , and placing it on their character .
It makes for a more casual gaming experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think people enjoy character building, rather than skill building.
Nowadays developers may see that players get more of a rewarding feeling if their crappy character becomes strong so that the difficulty of the game stays about the same the way through, even though the enemies/challenges are getting tougher.
This is in contrast to your character staying crappy, but you, the gamer, get better and eventually are able to beat the harder parts.
Its a case of growth of character VS. growth of player, and its easier or seen as more profitable to cater to the character building.
These RPG elements are just a way of taking the stress of improving off of the player, and placing it on their character.
It makes for a more casual gaming experience.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830324</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831274</id>
	<title>Non-sequitur</title>
	<author>JohnnyBGod</author>
	<datestamp>1264000080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can have all the RPG elements you like and still have a moddable game with dedicated servers. Making that claim and including TF2 on the list makes it sound like the author did little or no research.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You can have all the RPG elements you like and still have a moddable game with dedicated servers .
Making that claim and including TF2 on the list makes it sound like the author did little or no research .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can have all the RPG elements you like and still have a moddable game with dedicated servers.
Making that claim and including TF2 on the list makes it sound like the author did little or no research.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830310</id>
	<title>Re:WTF?</title>
	<author>Nursie</author>
	<datestamp>1263990780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The only thing I got from it was "no mod tools == bad". Other than that, no.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The only thing I got from it was " no mod tools = = bad " .
Other than that , no .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only thing I got from it was "no mod tools == bad".
Other than that, no.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830284</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831974</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>Hatta</author>
	<datestamp>1264003200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Turn by turn combat used to be the RPG mainstay, but for many people, it is too slow a method of resolving conflict. </i></p><p>Then maybe they shouldn't play RPGs.  An RPG with real time combat is an action-adventure game.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Turn by turn combat used to be the RPG mainstay , but for many people , it is too slow a method of resolving conflict .
Then maybe they should n't play RPGs .
An RPG with real time combat is an action-adventure game .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Turn by turn combat used to be the RPG mainstay, but for many people, it is too slow a method of resolving conflict.
Then maybe they shouldn't play RPGs.
An RPG with real time combat is an action-adventure game.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830566</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30833896</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>kalirion</author>
	<datestamp>1264010340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In other news, the increase of XBox 360 Controller Support in PC games has the downside of increased DRM use.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In other news , the increase of XBox 360 Controller Support in PC games has the downside of increased DRM use .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In other news, the increase of XBox 360 Controller Support in PC games has the downside of increased DRM use.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830324</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830488</id>
	<title>Love</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263992700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I believe that every game has a spark of creativity that cannot be denied.</p><p>Some devteams work for ten years or more on the same game... improving it, polishing it, patching it, rereleasing it under new technology, imagining, dreaming, hoping, sketching...</p><p>This is love, right?</p><p>I think so. I think it's eternal love; like a "soul."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I believe that every game has a spark of creativity that can not be denied.Some devteams work for ten years or more on the same game... improving it , polishing it , patching it , rereleasing it under new technology , imagining , dreaming , hoping , sketching...This is love , right ? I think so .
I think it 's eternal love ; like a " soul .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I believe that every game has a spark of creativity that cannot be denied.Some devteams work for ten years or more on the same game... improving it, polishing it, patching it, rereleasing it under new technology, imagining, dreaming, hoping, sketching...This is love, right?I think so.
I think it's eternal love; like a "soul.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30836406</id>
	<title>Re:Two issues here</title>
	<author>Draek</author>
	<datestamp>1264020420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And 3) Mods raise customers' expectations for future products. Most Morrowind players were dissapointed with Oblivion despite it being (other than the "level up with you" issue) a far superior product in nearly every aspect, simply because it couldn't compete with a modded version of the same. Same with STALKER: Clear Sky with respect to Shadow of Chernobyl, and there's probably other examples I'm forgetting right now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And 3 ) Mods raise customers ' expectations for future products .
Most Morrowind players were dissapointed with Oblivion despite it being ( other than the " level up with you " issue ) a far superior product in nearly every aspect , simply because it could n't compete with a modded version of the same .
Same with STALKER : Clear Sky with respect to Shadow of Chernobyl , and there 's probably other examples I 'm forgetting right now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And 3) Mods raise customers' expectations for future products.
Most Morrowind players were dissapointed with Oblivion despite it being (other than the "level up with you" issue) a far superior product in nearly every aspect, simply because it couldn't compete with a modded version of the same.
Same with STALKER: Clear Sky with respect to Shadow of Chernobyl, and there's probably other examples I'm forgetting right now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830686</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30832454</id>
	<title>Re:Addicted to fake achievement</title>
	<author>Simulant</author>
	<datestamp>1264005420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>

That's a great way to put it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's a great way to put it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>

That's a great way to put it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830338</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831096</id>
	<title>Money is all that matters</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263999120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>All major gaming companies are trying to add rpg elements to move there games beyond just another 3d shooter. Clearly customers are happy with that, considering the reception of MW2 and others as well.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As far as removing the ability to mod games as well as local network games, companies know that having those features extends the value of the game for years to come by giving gamers a reason to keep playing the same game they already bought. To the gaming companies that means you will keep playing older games and spend less money on newer games. That is the last thing they want. What they want is for you to play a new game for a limited period of time, get sick of it, be unable to mod it or play locally, then buy the next new game they make. Online gameplay is fine with them especially on the xbox because you are already paying to play online. These companies are here to make money and don't care about long term replay value.In fact the opposite. If you look at World of Warcraft, blizzard basically dropped work on every other game for the last 4 years because they were making so much money on WOW. THey are finally now moving on some new games like startcraft 2 and diablo 3, but that's not where the real money comes from. If all the gaming companies in the world could, they would make all there games online only and require monthly payments to play. Of course the companies conveniently use piracy as the reason for this. But pirates create private servers for WOW and hack games to get what they want. Piracy is a scapegoat to cover there greed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>All major gaming companies are trying to add rpg elements to move there games beyond just another 3d shooter .
Clearly customers are happy with that , considering the reception of MW2 and others as well .
              As far as removing the ability to mod games as well as local network games , companies know that having those features extends the value of the game for years to come by giving gamers a reason to keep playing the same game they already bought .
To the gaming companies that means you will keep playing older games and spend less money on newer games .
That is the last thing they want .
What they want is for you to play a new game for a limited period of time , get sick of it , be unable to mod it or play locally , then buy the next new game they make .
Online gameplay is fine with them especially on the xbox because you are already paying to play online .
These companies are here to make money and do n't care about long term replay value.In fact the opposite .
If you look at World of Warcraft , blizzard basically dropped work on every other game for the last 4 years because they were making so much money on WOW .
THey are finally now moving on some new games like startcraft 2 and diablo 3 , but that 's not where the real money comes from .
If all the gaming companies in the world could , they would make all there games online only and require monthly payments to play .
Of course the companies conveniently use piracy as the reason for this .
But pirates create private servers for WOW and hack games to get what they want .
Piracy is a scapegoat to cover there greed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All major gaming companies are trying to add rpg elements to move there games beyond just another 3d shooter.
Clearly customers are happy with that, considering the reception of MW2 and others as well.
              As far as removing the ability to mod games as well as local network games, companies know that having those features extends the value of the game for years to come by giving gamers a reason to keep playing the same game they already bought.
To the gaming companies that means you will keep playing older games and spend less money on newer games.
That is the last thing they want.
What they want is for you to play a new game for a limited period of time, get sick of it, be unable to mod it or play locally, then buy the next new game they make.
Online gameplay is fine with them especially on the xbox because you are already paying to play online.
These companies are here to make money and don't care about long term replay value.In fact the opposite.
If you look at World of Warcraft, blizzard basically dropped work on every other game for the last 4 years because they were making so much money on WOW.
THey are finally now moving on some new games like startcraft 2 and diablo 3, but that's not where the real money comes from.
If all the gaming companies in the world could, they would make all there games online only and require monthly payments to play.
Of course the companies conveniently use piracy as the reason for this.
But pirates create private servers for WOW and hack games to get what they want.
Piracy is a scapegoat to cover there greed.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831620</id>
	<title>Really? What are RPG elements?</title>
	<author>crossmr</author>
	<datestamp>1264001700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I hate to break it to the writer and most of the clowns who parrot buzz words in the industry but a roleplaying game isn't defined by stats, swords, levels, or anything other mechanic. Mechanics are separate from the genre. One of the few gems to come out of a reviewer was from a fellow named Desslock. He correctly defined what a roleplaying game was and unfortunately too many people were busy trying to attach RPG to every game going in an attempt to give them some sort of claim to legitimacy. I'm paraphrasing because it was quite a few years ago, but:<br>"A roleplaying game is a game where the players actions and choices have a meaningful and lasting effect on the game world and that world changes as a response to it"</p><p>He also pointed out at that time that there were few if any games which actually even approached being a genuine roleplaying game. Even today there isn't. The only thing that really has a chance to actually be a roleplaying game are sandbox games. The player needs the freedom to make choices and those choices need to have effects. They need to be permanent and the world itself needs to change. A game like Simcity (4 or earlier, not that latest atrocity) is far closer to being a genuine roleplaying game than some of the games in recent years full of swords and magic. Certainly much more than say..WoW.</p><p>A fairly linear shooter which adds stats, or levels doesn't include "RPG elements" because none of those things have anything to do with making a game an RPG. The game is an RPG if the player can affect and change the world with choices, not if he can pick up a better sword, or swing it slightly better. You have to play a role, but that role has to have meaning within the game world. All of those things are completely independent of the mechanics. Yes, game makers often try to bundle those things together, but in reality simply adding a sword, or hit points to a game doesn't make it a roleplaying game. It makes it whatever it is with a sword and hit points.</p><p>Every time I see some hack writer talking about "RPG elements" I feel like asking them if they think their Cobalt has Ferrari elements because it has doors and wheels.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I hate to break it to the writer and most of the clowns who parrot buzz words in the industry but a roleplaying game is n't defined by stats , swords , levels , or anything other mechanic .
Mechanics are separate from the genre .
One of the few gems to come out of a reviewer was from a fellow named Desslock .
He correctly defined what a roleplaying game was and unfortunately too many people were busy trying to attach RPG to every game going in an attempt to give them some sort of claim to legitimacy .
I 'm paraphrasing because it was quite a few years ago , but : " A roleplaying game is a game where the players actions and choices have a meaningful and lasting effect on the game world and that world changes as a response to it " He also pointed out at that time that there were few if any games which actually even approached being a genuine roleplaying game .
Even today there is n't .
The only thing that really has a chance to actually be a roleplaying game are sandbox games .
The player needs the freedom to make choices and those choices need to have effects .
They need to be permanent and the world itself needs to change .
A game like Simcity ( 4 or earlier , not that latest atrocity ) is far closer to being a genuine roleplaying game than some of the games in recent years full of swords and magic .
Certainly much more than say..WoW.A fairly linear shooter which adds stats , or levels does n't include " RPG elements " because none of those things have anything to do with making a game an RPG .
The game is an RPG if the player can affect and change the world with choices , not if he can pick up a better sword , or swing it slightly better .
You have to play a role , but that role has to have meaning within the game world .
All of those things are completely independent of the mechanics .
Yes , game makers often try to bundle those things together , but in reality simply adding a sword , or hit points to a game does n't make it a roleplaying game .
It makes it whatever it is with a sword and hit points.Every time I see some hack writer talking about " RPG elements " I feel like asking them if they think their Cobalt has Ferrari elements because it has doors and wheels .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hate to break it to the writer and most of the clowns who parrot buzz words in the industry but a roleplaying game isn't defined by stats, swords, levels, or anything other mechanic.
Mechanics are separate from the genre.
One of the few gems to come out of a reviewer was from a fellow named Desslock.
He correctly defined what a roleplaying game was and unfortunately too many people were busy trying to attach RPG to every game going in an attempt to give them some sort of claim to legitimacy.
I'm paraphrasing because it was quite a few years ago, but:"A roleplaying game is a game where the players actions and choices have a meaningful and lasting effect on the game world and that world changes as a response to it"He also pointed out at that time that there were few if any games which actually even approached being a genuine roleplaying game.
Even today there isn't.
The only thing that really has a chance to actually be a roleplaying game are sandbox games.
The player needs the freedom to make choices and those choices need to have effects.
They need to be permanent and the world itself needs to change.
A game like Simcity (4 or earlier, not that latest atrocity) is far closer to being a genuine roleplaying game than some of the games in recent years full of swords and magic.
Certainly much more than say..WoW.A fairly linear shooter which adds stats, or levels doesn't include "RPG elements" because none of those things have anything to do with making a game an RPG.
The game is an RPG if the player can affect and change the world with choices, not if he can pick up a better sword, or swing it slightly better.
You have to play a role, but that role has to have meaning within the game world.
All of those things are completely independent of the mechanics.
Yes, game makers often try to bundle those things together, but in reality simply adding a sword, or hit points to a game doesn't make it a roleplaying game.
It makes it whatever it is with a sword and hit points.Every time I see some hack writer talking about "RPG elements" I feel like asking them if they think their Cobalt has Ferrari elements because it has doors and wheels.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830672</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>AlmondMan</author>
	<datestamp>1263995340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I personally enjoy the creeping in of RPG elements in games that traditionally don't make use of them. What I however do not understand is how that has anything to do with the lack of modtools or whatever.<br>Recently I've been playing a bit of an indie game called Killing Floor, which apparently started out as a mod for UT2k4. This is quite an enjoyable cheap little game with a handful of different classes and a handful of levels for each. Make headshots, and become better with precision weapons, that sort of thing. It gives a nice sense of perpetuity and progress to playing the game. Not sure how much I'll enjoy it once I hit max level. Chances are I'll shelve it, but hey, I enjoyed it while it lasted and it cost 1/4th what a AAA game that would've not last me 8 hours would have.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I personally enjoy the creeping in of RPG elements in games that traditionally do n't make use of them .
What I however do not understand is how that has anything to do with the lack of modtools or whatever.Recently I 've been playing a bit of an indie game called Killing Floor , which apparently started out as a mod for UT2k4 .
This is quite an enjoyable cheap little game with a handful of different classes and a handful of levels for each .
Make headshots , and become better with precision weapons , that sort of thing .
It gives a nice sense of perpetuity and progress to playing the game .
Not sure how much I 'll enjoy it once I hit max level .
Chances are I 'll shelve it , but hey , I enjoyed it while it lasted and it cost 1/4th what a AAA game that would 've not last me 8 hours would have .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I personally enjoy the creeping in of RPG elements in games that traditionally don't make use of them.
What I however do not understand is how that has anything to do with the lack of modtools or whatever.Recently I've been playing a bit of an indie game called Killing Floor, which apparently started out as a mod for UT2k4.
This is quite an enjoyable cheap little game with a handful of different classes and a handful of levels for each.
Make headshots, and become better with precision weapons, that sort of thing.
It gives a nice sense of perpetuity and progress to playing the game.
Not sure how much I'll enjoy it once I hit max level.
Chances are I'll shelve it, but hey, I enjoyed it while it lasted and it cost 1/4th what a AAA game that would've not last me 8 hours would have.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830324</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830332</id>
	<title>Re:WTF?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263990960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Someone blogged about some things he doesn't like and made the front page of slashdot.</p><p>Basically, more games have character progression in them where you improve your character and/or equipment while playing and he thinks this is a bad idea for competitive multiplayer games.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Someone blogged about some things he does n't like and made the front page of slashdot.Basically , more games have character progression in them where you improve your character and/or equipment while playing and he thinks this is a bad idea for competitive multiplayer games .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Someone blogged about some things he doesn't like and made the front page of slashdot.Basically, more games have character progression in them where you improve your character and/or equipment while playing and he thinks this is a bad idea for competitive multiplayer games.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830284</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30832140</id>
	<title>Re:Two issues here</title>
	<author>Hatta</author>
	<datestamp>1264004100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>The first is the creep of RPG elements into other genres. I've certainly noticed this myself, and there are a few obvious manifestations</i></p><p>And then there's the creep of action elements into RPGs.  Where's my turn based combat?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The first is the creep of RPG elements into other genres .
I 've certainly noticed this myself , and there are a few obvious manifestationsAnd then there 's the creep of action elements into RPGs .
Where 's my turn based combat ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The first is the creep of RPG elements into other genres.
I've certainly noticed this myself, and there are a few obvious manifestationsAnd then there's the creep of action elements into RPGs.
Where's my turn based combat?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830384</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830686</id>
	<title>Re:Two issues here</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263995520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The second issue is around the restriction of modding, which I don't really see as being at all related to the spread of RPG elements. After all, RPGs are historically highly moddable, from their roots in the pen and paper market onwards. The Neverwinter Nights games were heavily marketed with their modability as a key selling point. However, there does seem to be a trend towards restriction of modding in some genres, including fpses. I think there are two drivers for this. The first, simply put, is a "hot coffee" reaction. As certain countries (eg. Germany and Australia) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content, developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised (or sued) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod. The other cause is the desire to deliver a more consistent experience.</p></div><p>There is another reason to consider. While modding is a selling point, it is a selling point that has two drawbacks for the industry: 1) It extends the lifetime of the game, causing the gamer to purchase fewer games. An example is Morrowind that came out in 2001 and is still being modded. 2) Usermade content gives a free alternative to expansion packs and DLC, which may decrease sales. On the other hand, modding tools are likely to generate a larger and more active core of fans.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>I think this stems from the console market.</p></div><p>As far as I know, console makers (MS and Sony, at least) hate usermade content on their consoles, making it diffcult (and against the EULA) to mod the games on their consoles.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The second issue is around the restriction of modding , which I do n't really see as being at all related to the spread of RPG elements .
After all , RPGs are historically highly moddable , from their roots in the pen and paper market onwards .
The Neverwinter Nights games were heavily marketed with their modability as a key selling point .
However , there does seem to be a trend towards restriction of modding in some genres , including fpses .
I think there are two drivers for this .
The first , simply put , is a " hot coffee " reaction .
As certain countries ( eg .
Germany and Australia ) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content , developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised ( or sued ) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod .
The other cause is the desire to deliver a more consistent experience.There is another reason to consider .
While modding is a selling point , it is a selling point that has two drawbacks for the industry : 1 ) It extends the lifetime of the game , causing the gamer to purchase fewer games .
An example is Morrowind that came out in 2001 and is still being modded .
2 ) Usermade content gives a free alternative to expansion packs and DLC , which may decrease sales .
On the other hand , modding tools are likely to generate a larger and more active core of fans.I think this stems from the console market.As far as I know , console makers ( MS and Sony , at least ) hate usermade content on their consoles , making it diffcult ( and against the EULA ) to mod the games on their consoles .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The second issue is around the restriction of modding, which I don't really see as being at all related to the spread of RPG elements.
After all, RPGs are historically highly moddable, from their roots in the pen and paper market onwards.
The Neverwinter Nights games were heavily marketed with their modability as a key selling point.
However, there does seem to be a trend towards restriction of modding in some genres, including fpses.
I think there are two drivers for this.
The first, simply put, is a "hot coffee" reaction.
As certain countries (eg.
Germany and Australia) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content, developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised (or sued) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod.
The other cause is the desire to deliver a more consistent experience.There is another reason to consider.
While modding is a selling point, it is a selling point that has two drawbacks for the industry: 1) It extends the lifetime of the game, causing the gamer to purchase fewer games.
An example is Morrowind that came out in 2001 and is still being modded.
2) Usermade content gives a free alternative to expansion packs and DLC, which may decrease sales.
On the other hand, modding tools are likely to generate a larger and more active core of fans.I think this stems from the console market.As far as I know, console makers (MS and Sony, at least) hate usermade content on their consoles, making it diffcult (and against the EULA) to mod the games on their consoles.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830384</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830598</id>
	<title>Re:WHAT</title>
	<author>Ihmhi</author>
	<datestamp>1263994500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There were plenty of games back in the day that didn't have mod tools available for them. They got modded anyway by inventive programmers. It'll happen with MW2 soon enough.</p><p>I wonder how "unauthorized" modding of a AAA title will stand up in the modern era.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There were plenty of games back in the day that did n't have mod tools available for them .
They got modded anyway by inventive programmers .
It 'll happen with MW2 soon enough.I wonder how " unauthorized " modding of a AAA title will stand up in the modern era .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There were plenty of games back in the day that didn't have mod tools available for them.
They got modded anyway by inventive programmers.
It'll happen with MW2 soon enough.I wonder how "unauthorized" modding of a AAA title will stand up in the modern era.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830444</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831626</id>
	<title>Beyond nonsense rant indeed.</title>
	<author>unity100</author>
	<datestamp>1264001760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>so, rpg elements are creeping into other genres, and ousting mods, dedicated servers etc ?</p><p>that is happening, DESPITE rpg games themselves are being made from the start to include extensive modding, and multiplayer ? like how dragon age has modding, and like how unbelievably moddable mount &amp; blade is ? ( to the extent of some mods being entirely different games) upcoming multiplayer server (counter/starcraft style) for mount and blade ?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>so , rpg elements are creeping into other genres , and ousting mods , dedicated servers etc ? that is happening , DESPITE rpg games themselves are being made from the start to include extensive modding , and multiplayer ?
like how dragon age has modding , and like how unbelievably moddable mount &amp; blade is ?
( to the extent of some mods being entirely different games ) upcoming multiplayer server ( counter/starcraft style ) for mount and blade ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>so, rpg elements are creeping into other genres, and ousting mods, dedicated servers etc ?that is happening, DESPITE rpg games themselves are being made from the start to include extensive modding, and multiplayer ?
like how dragon age has modding, and like how unbelievably moddable mount &amp; blade is ?
( to the extent of some mods being entirely different games) upcoming multiplayer server (counter/starcraft style) for mount and blade ?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831166</id>
	<title>They post anything on this site nowadays.</title>
	<author>xmousex</author>
	<datestamp>1263999480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Especially if it has a few buzzwords thrown in.  Blah Blah Blah MW2 Blah. This really is a troll article. And the author makes no sense.  RPG = no modding.  Its not just misinformed, its in incapability to communicate by the author.  He is bugged by something, but doesnt have the right terms or background apparently to actually say what he really means.  Let me help a little:   no modding = no modding.</p><p>How do we vote articles like this off the site?</p><p>Oh nevermind.  His page was just suspended.  LOL</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Especially if it has a few buzzwords thrown in .
Blah Blah Blah MW2 Blah .
This really is a troll article .
And the author makes no sense .
RPG = no modding .
Its not just misinformed , its in incapability to communicate by the author .
He is bugged by something , but doesnt have the right terms or background apparently to actually say what he really means .
Let me help a little : no modding = no modding.How do we vote articles like this off the site ? Oh nevermind .
His page was just suspended .
LOL</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Especially if it has a few buzzwords thrown in.
Blah Blah Blah MW2 Blah.
This really is a troll article.
And the author makes no sense.
RPG = no modding.
Its not just misinformed, its in incapability to communicate by the author.
He is bugged by something, but doesnt have the right terms or background apparently to actually say what he really means.
Let me help a little:   no modding = no modding.How do we vote articles like this off the site?Oh nevermind.
His page was just suspended.
LOL</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30841984</id>
	<title>it goes both ways</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264006500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The genre creep goes both ways. FPS elements have been taking over all computer RPG games as well. I'm big into RPGs and only rarely enjoy a straight FPS, but nowadays, I can't find an RPG game where I can plan out my character's actions without having to handle a battle in real time FPS style. Sometimes its fun, but sometimes I just want an RPG. I can imagine the same frustration for the FPS gamer.</p><p>Crossovers make new and interesting things. But they can also lose what you liked about something in the first place.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The genre creep goes both ways .
FPS elements have been taking over all computer RPG games as well .
I 'm big into RPGs and only rarely enjoy a straight FPS , but nowadays , I ca n't find an RPG game where I can plan out my character 's actions without having to handle a battle in real time FPS style .
Sometimes its fun , but sometimes I just want an RPG .
I can imagine the same frustration for the FPS gamer.Crossovers make new and interesting things .
But they can also lose what you liked about something in the first place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The genre creep goes both ways.
FPS elements have been taking over all computer RPG games as well.
I'm big into RPGs and only rarely enjoy a straight FPS, but nowadays, I can't find an RPG game where I can plan out my character's actions without having to handle a battle in real time FPS style.
Sometimes its fun, but sometimes I just want an RPG.
I can imagine the same frustration for the FPS gamer.Crossovers make new and interesting things.
But they can also lose what you liked about something in the first place.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30833796</id>
	<title>It's pretty simple</title>
	<author>nlawalker</author>
	<datestamp>1264009980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's really pretty simple: people who play games are demanding more for their $60 - more playtime, more engrossing experiences, more replayability, more choices and more customization. Think of all the games on the market now... a hippity-hop 2D platformer can be a pretty hard sell for 50 or 60 bucks when there are games right next to it that promise expansive environments, customization, tons of playtime, etc. The easiest way to make a game more complex and cover all those traits in one fell swoop is to toss in a leveling system and some kind of skill tree or progression. It makes a game more multifaceted and provides a "meta-game" that sits underneath the pew-pew-pew on the screen. Technology has also made it easier to create no-loading open-world environments as opposed to static levels, which play very nicely with RPG elements because passing by areas you can't reach and enemies too strong for you to kill is <i>interesting</i> and makes you want to come back later.</p><p>And why are these games trending toward being first-person shooters? Well, if you want a three-dimensional, open world experience with a free-roaming character, there are really only two places you can put the camera: inside the player-character's head, or outside of it. I guess developers have simply found that third person cameras don't add a lot to the experience (who wants to look at their character's ass for 40 hours - then again, this may explain the rise of female player-characters), they are hard to program, and they don't feel as controllable or as precise as first-person viewpoints.</p><p>So if it all comes down to the price point, which I alluded to in my opening sentence, then where are the cheaper, less complex games? They're on XBox Live, PSN and the VC store, where they get little attention from casual gamers because they're not advertised and they're too hard to find, no attention from "hardcore" gamers because they're "casual games" that are too simplistic and not worth the money, and ignored by the media because they're not blockbusters and no one wants to read the reviews. Welcome to the games industry.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's really pretty simple : people who play games are demanding more for their $ 60 - more playtime , more engrossing experiences , more replayability , more choices and more customization .
Think of all the games on the market now... a hippity-hop 2D platformer can be a pretty hard sell for 50 or 60 bucks when there are games right next to it that promise expansive environments , customization , tons of playtime , etc .
The easiest way to make a game more complex and cover all those traits in one fell swoop is to toss in a leveling system and some kind of skill tree or progression .
It makes a game more multifaceted and provides a " meta-game " that sits underneath the pew-pew-pew on the screen .
Technology has also made it easier to create no-loading open-world environments as opposed to static levels , which play very nicely with RPG elements because passing by areas you ca n't reach and enemies too strong for you to kill is interesting and makes you want to come back later.And why are these games trending toward being first-person shooters ?
Well , if you want a three-dimensional , open world experience with a free-roaming character , there are really only two places you can put the camera : inside the player-character 's head , or outside of it .
I guess developers have simply found that third person cameras do n't add a lot to the experience ( who wants to look at their character 's ass for 40 hours - then again , this may explain the rise of female player-characters ) , they are hard to program , and they do n't feel as controllable or as precise as first-person viewpoints.So if it all comes down to the price point , which I alluded to in my opening sentence , then where are the cheaper , less complex games ?
They 're on XBox Live , PSN and the VC store , where they get little attention from casual gamers because they 're not advertised and they 're too hard to find , no attention from " hardcore " gamers because they 're " casual games " that are too simplistic and not worth the money , and ignored by the media because they 're not blockbusters and no one wants to read the reviews .
Welcome to the games industry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's really pretty simple: people who play games are demanding more for their $60 - more playtime, more engrossing experiences, more replayability, more choices and more customization.
Think of all the games on the market now... a hippity-hop 2D platformer can be a pretty hard sell for 50 or 60 bucks when there are games right next to it that promise expansive environments, customization, tons of playtime, etc.
The easiest way to make a game more complex and cover all those traits in one fell swoop is to toss in a leveling system and some kind of skill tree or progression.
It makes a game more multifaceted and provides a "meta-game" that sits underneath the pew-pew-pew on the screen.
Technology has also made it easier to create no-loading open-world environments as opposed to static levels, which play very nicely with RPG elements because passing by areas you can't reach and enemies too strong for you to kill is interesting and makes you want to come back later.And why are these games trending toward being first-person shooters?
Well, if you want a three-dimensional, open world experience with a free-roaming character, there are really only two places you can put the camera: inside the player-character's head, or outside of it.
I guess developers have simply found that third person cameras don't add a lot to the experience (who wants to look at their character's ass for 40 hours - then again, this may explain the rise of female player-characters), they are hard to program, and they don't feel as controllable or as precise as first-person viewpoints.So if it all comes down to the price point, which I alluded to in my opening sentence, then where are the cheaper, less complex games?
They're on XBox Live, PSN and the VC store, where they get little attention from casual gamers because they're not advertised and they're too hard to find, no attention from "hardcore" gamers because they're "casual games" that are too simplistic and not worth the money, and ignored by the media because they're not blockbusters and no one wants to read the reviews.
Welcome to the games industry.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30832714</id>
	<title>Its just a game</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264006320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Heres the thing many people fail to realize, and yet it is the most simple concept to grasp. That the games are intended to be fun, and they are, Fallout 3 is among the best, MW2 kicks ass, i play that every day, but im not picky in FPS games, i can kill anyone with any gun, im a gamer, a true gamer. If earning your ranks and the priv to use certain firearms in a game is a hindrance to you then i suggest simply go back to packman and leave real gamers play our games.
These so called "RPG" elements let us play the game in a different style every time, I think the clone wars in multiplayer games is long over.
Let the dev's figure out what way to take it, i am confident in the routes they will take, they know what they are doing or else they wouldn't still be in the business.

The consumer is not always right (in this case, the basement troll is not always night, and never is for that fact)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Heres the thing many people fail to realize , and yet it is the most simple concept to grasp .
That the games are intended to be fun , and they are , Fallout 3 is among the best , MW2 kicks ass , i play that every day , but im not picky in FPS games , i can kill anyone with any gun , im a gamer , a true gamer .
If earning your ranks and the priv to use certain firearms in a game is a hindrance to you then i suggest simply go back to packman and leave real gamers play our games .
These so called " RPG " elements let us play the game in a different style every time , I think the clone wars in multiplayer games is long over .
Let the dev 's figure out what way to take it , i am confident in the routes they will take , they know what they are doing or else they would n't still be in the business .
The consumer is not always right ( in this case , the basement troll is not always night , and never is for that fact )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Heres the thing many people fail to realize, and yet it is the most simple concept to grasp.
That the games are intended to be fun, and they are, Fallout 3 is among the best, MW2 kicks ass, i play that every day, but im not picky in FPS games, i can kill anyone with any gun, im a gamer, a true gamer.
If earning your ranks and the priv to use certain firearms in a game is a hindrance to you then i suggest simply go back to packman and leave real gamers play our games.
These so called "RPG" elements let us play the game in a different style every time, I think the clone wars in multiplayer games is long over.
Let the dev's figure out what way to take it, i am confident in the routes they will take, they know what they are doing or else they wouldn't still be in the business.
The consumer is not always right (in this case, the basement troll is not always night, and never is for that fact)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30834898</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264014480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sorry, never played those games... but "Ogre" and "Battle" do bring up another memory for me:  a <a href="http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/" title="sjgames.com">tabletop game</a> [sjgames.com]  from Steve Jackson Games.</p><p>It ain't a real Ogre unless it's a continental siege unit!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Unless it's a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo\_(tank)" title="wikipedia.org">Bolo</a> [wikipedia.org] instead...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry , never played those games... but " Ogre " and " Battle " do bring up another memory for me : a tabletop game [ sjgames.com ] from Steve Jackson Games.It ai n't a real Ogre unless it 's a continental siege unit !
... Unless it 's a Bolo [ wikipedia.org ] instead.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry, never played those games... but "Ogre" and "Battle" do bring up another memory for me:  a tabletop game [sjgames.com]  from Steve Jackson Games.It ain't a real Ogre unless it's a continental siege unit!
... Unless it's a Bolo [wikipedia.org] instead...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830780</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30832382</id>
	<title>Re:Really? What are RPG elements?</title>
	<author>jgtg32a</author>
	<datestamp>1264005180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thank you, I was going to post the same but in a much less articulate fashion.<br>JRPGs are not RPGs they are adventure game with Stat based combat.  Don't get me wrong I love JRPGs, but they aren't RPGs any decisions that you make are largely irrelevant, to the overall story. <br>You might want to look into Alpha Protocol, its a "spy story" made by the some of Black Isle guys, so at least the story and writing will be amazing.  It uses the Mass Effect engine (but don't under estimate BI's ability to introduce bugs).  Most of the talks about the game are how you interact with the NPCs and the "waves" that your interactions will have on other NPCs (you shoot a guys friend he's going to be mad).  <br>
&nbsp; <br>The most interesting part is it was criticized for not have a lot of RPG elements like Mass Effect.  That leads me to believe that they made a splinter cell type game with a boat load of character interactions, that actually matter.  It was also pushed back so it looks like they may be making it more "RPGish"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thank you , I was going to post the same but in a much less articulate fashion.JRPGs are not RPGs they are adventure game with Stat based combat .
Do n't get me wrong I love JRPGs , but they are n't RPGs any decisions that you make are largely irrelevant , to the overall story .
You might want to look into Alpha Protocol , its a " spy story " made by the some of Black Isle guys , so at least the story and writing will be amazing .
It uses the Mass Effect engine ( but do n't under estimate BI 's ability to introduce bugs ) .
Most of the talks about the game are how you interact with the NPCs and the " waves " that your interactions will have on other NPCs ( you shoot a guys friend he 's going to be mad ) .
  The most interesting part is it was criticized for not have a lot of RPG elements like Mass Effect .
That leads me to believe that they made a splinter cell type game with a boat load of character interactions , that actually matter .
It was also pushed back so it looks like they may be making it more " RPGish "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thank you, I was going to post the same but in a much less articulate fashion.JRPGs are not RPGs they are adventure game with Stat based combat.
Don't get me wrong I love JRPGs, but they aren't RPGs any decisions that you make are largely irrelevant, to the overall story.
You might want to look into Alpha Protocol, its a "spy story" made by the some of Black Isle guys, so at least the story and writing will be amazing.
It uses the Mass Effect engine (but don't under estimate BI's ability to introduce bugs).
Most of the talks about the game are how you interact with the NPCs and the "waves" that your interactions will have on other NPCs (you shoot a guys friend he's going to be mad).
  The most interesting part is it was criticized for not have a lot of RPG elements like Mass Effect.
That leads me to believe that they made a splinter cell type game with a boat load of character interactions, that actually matter.
It was also pushed back so it looks like they may be making it more "RPGish"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831620</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831950</id>
	<title>MW2</title>
	<author>nschubach</author>
	<datestamp>1264003140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Dammit!  MW2 will always belong to Mechwarrior 2 for me!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Dammit !
MW2 will always belong to Mechwarrior 2 for me !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dammit!
MW2 will always belong to Mechwarrior 2 for me!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831268</id>
	<title>Here is a google cached version</title>
	<author>tresstatus</author>
	<datestamp>1264000020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:mvPHd6yLON8J:www.couchcampus.com/lecture/genre-wars-downside-of-the-rpg-takeover/+http://www.couchcampus.com/lecture/genre-wars-downside-of-the-rpg-takeover/&amp;cd=1&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk&amp;gl=us&amp;" title="74.125.47.132" rel="nofollow">http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:mvPHd6yLON8J:www.couchcampus.com/lecture/genre-wars-downside-of-the-rpg-takeover/+http://www.couchcampus.com/lecture/genre-wars-downside-of-the-rpg-takeover/&amp;cd=1&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk&amp;gl=us&amp;</a> [74.125.47.132]



<br> <br> <br>the other one says the guy had his account suspended.</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //74.125.47.132/search ? q = cache : mvPHd6yLON8J : www.couchcampus.com/lecture/genre-wars-downside-of-the-rpg-takeover/ + http : //www.couchcampus.com/lecture/genre-wars-downside-of-the-rpg-takeover/&amp;cd = 1&amp;hl = en&amp;ct = clnk&amp;gl = us&amp; [ 74.125.47.132 ] the other one says the guy had his account suspended .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:mvPHd6yLON8J:www.couchcampus.com/lecture/genre-wars-downside-of-the-rpg-takeover/+http://www.couchcampus.com/lecture/genre-wars-downside-of-the-rpg-takeover/&amp;cd=1&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk&amp;gl=us&amp; [74.125.47.132]



  the other one says the guy had his account suspended.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30833504</id>
	<title>Re:Two issues here</title>
	<author>IshmaelDS</author>
	<datestamp>1264008960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>True but if they are smart they would just hire the mod teams (for anything truly successfull), I mean look at Counter-Strike.  Started as a mod just a couple guys and then valve saw what they had done and the following they had and purchased it all, turned around and resold it and put new life back in a game that had passed it's selling peak.</htmltext>
<tokenext>True but if they are smart they would just hire the mod teams ( for anything truly successfull ) , I mean look at Counter-Strike .
Started as a mod just a couple guys and then valve saw what they had done and the following they had and purchased it all , turned around and resold it and put new life back in a game that had passed it 's selling peak .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>True but if they are smart they would just hire the mod teams (for anything truly successfull), I mean look at Counter-Strike.
Started as a mod just a couple guys and then valve saw what they had done and the following they had and purchased it all, turned around and resold it and put new life back in a game that had passed it's selling peak.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830686</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30832616</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>Monkeedude1212</author>
	<datestamp>1264006020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The trouble I have is distinguishing what is setting apart the RTS from the RPG - since they are both incredibly similar in game mechanics. You sit above, select unit, tell unit to perform action. The RTS part naturally suggests that its real time (as its in the name) and the RPG part suggests there is role-playing, which is exactly what Warcraft 3/Dota are, and the literally half a dozen remakes to have come out of it kept are doing. It's not that these games aren't around anymore, it's that they are a dead horse that often and repeatedly get beaten. There was a game to come out that featured this 2 months ago (I remember seeing a deal on Steam) and I remember one about 6 or 7 months before that.</p><p>As for the complaints about the RPG Takeover - its not just RPG's, but every genre of game is getting mixed into one. It used to be that only adventure games had an actual adventure to go on, which now results in every game having a story and adventure games become puzzle games. No one is complaining that games have a story now. A lot of games now just mix in elements from EVERY Genre, so it blurs the lines of what is what. I could mention Battlefield 2142 or Savage 2 - as elements of RTS, FPS, and RPG are all prevalent.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The trouble I have is distinguishing what is setting apart the RTS from the RPG - since they are both incredibly similar in game mechanics .
You sit above , select unit , tell unit to perform action .
The RTS part naturally suggests that its real time ( as its in the name ) and the RPG part suggests there is role-playing , which is exactly what Warcraft 3/Dota are , and the literally half a dozen remakes to have come out of it kept are doing .
It 's not that these games are n't around anymore , it 's that they are a dead horse that often and repeatedly get beaten .
There was a game to come out that featured this 2 months ago ( I remember seeing a deal on Steam ) and I remember one about 6 or 7 months before that.As for the complaints about the RPG Takeover - its not just RPG 's , but every genre of game is getting mixed into one .
It used to be that only adventure games had an actual adventure to go on , which now results in every game having a story and adventure games become puzzle games .
No one is complaining that games have a story now .
A lot of games now just mix in elements from EVERY Genre , so it blurs the lines of what is what .
I could mention Battlefield 2142 or Savage 2 - as elements of RTS , FPS , and RPG are all prevalent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The trouble I have is distinguishing what is setting apart the RTS from the RPG - since they are both incredibly similar in game mechanics.
You sit above, select unit, tell unit to perform action.
The RTS part naturally suggests that its real time (as its in the name) and the RPG part suggests there is role-playing, which is exactly what Warcraft 3/Dota are, and the literally half a dozen remakes to have come out of it kept are doing.
It's not that these games aren't around anymore, it's that they are a dead horse that often and repeatedly get beaten.
There was a game to come out that featured this 2 months ago (I remember seeing a deal on Steam) and I remember one about 6 or 7 months before that.As for the complaints about the RPG Takeover - its not just RPG's, but every genre of game is getting mixed into one.
It used to be that only adventure games had an actual adventure to go on, which now results in every game having a story and adventure games become puzzle games.
No one is complaining that games have a story now.
A lot of games now just mix in elements from EVERY Genre, so it blurs the lines of what is what.
I could mention Battlefield 2142 or Savage 2 - as elements of RTS, FPS, and RPG are all prevalent.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830566</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30835804</id>
	<title>Game Identity</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1264017780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think a game should have a sound identity (RPS, FPS, RTS, Sim, whatever) and stick to that. When you start injecting elements from other genres, you just water down the overall game.</p><p>This probably isn't a popular view, but I think Warcraft III was terrible because it tried to add an RPG element to an obvious RTS engine. The same goes for games that try to add a MMORP feel to games that aren't really MMORP games...just being online and playing with other humans doesn't qualify a game as an MMORP, yet many online games today try to think of themselves as such.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think a game should have a sound identity ( RPS , FPS , RTS , Sim , whatever ) and stick to that .
When you start injecting elements from other genres , you just water down the overall game.This probably is n't a popular view , but I think Warcraft III was terrible because it tried to add an RPG element to an obvious RTS engine .
The same goes for games that try to add a MMORP feel to games that are n't really MMORP games...just being online and playing with other humans does n't qualify a game as an MMORP , yet many online games today try to think of themselves as such .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think a game should have a sound identity (RPS, FPS, RTS, Sim, whatever) and stick to that.
When you start injecting elements from other genres, you just water down the overall game.This probably isn't a popular view, but I think Warcraft III was terrible because it tried to add an RPG element to an obvious RTS engine.
The same goes for games that try to add a MMORP feel to games that aren't really MMORP games...just being online and playing with other humans doesn't qualify a game as an MMORP, yet many online games today try to think of themselves as such.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830494</id>
	<title>What a ramble...</title>
	<author>MikeRT</author>
	<datestamp>1263992820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I didn't see anything in there that was actually a cause-effect relationship between the "RPG elements" and taking away from the games.
<br> <br>
Personally, I love the blending of genres. Now we get games like Mass Effect which combine action similar to Gears of War with a real RPG feel.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I did n't see anything in there that was actually a cause-effect relationship between the " RPG elements " and taking away from the games .
Personally , I love the blending of genres .
Now we get games like Mass Effect which combine action similar to Gears of War with a real RPG feel .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I didn't see anything in there that was actually a cause-effect relationship between the "RPG elements" and taking away from the games.
Personally, I love the blending of genres.
Now we get games like Mass Effect which combine action similar to Gears of War with a real RPG feel.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830838</id>
	<title>Re:Two issues here</title>
	<author>RogueyWon</author>
	<datestamp>1263997200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>MS certainly seem to have slackened up a lot on this. Even leaving aside their indie sections on Xbox Live Arcade, we've seen more and more user-created content permitted in games recently.</p><p>The best recent example is Forza 3, with its custom car skins. Anything outright offensive (eg. featuring nudity or bad language) will get squashed by the mods, but it's perfectly possible to download user-made car designs covering most conceivable eventualities (or upload your own), including designs which I would have thought have at least the potential to raise trademark issues. Happily, these are all traded using only in-game currency; no doubt a relief to those who remember being asked to play 400 MS points for a new skin for a plane in Ace Combat 6.</p><p>Amusingly (and for once, this reflects well on MS in a way), it is quite possible to download car designs with Playstation logos plastered all over them, and drive them around in what is a single-platform Xbox-flagship game.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>MS certainly seem to have slackened up a lot on this .
Even leaving aside their indie sections on Xbox Live Arcade , we 've seen more and more user-created content permitted in games recently.The best recent example is Forza 3 , with its custom car skins .
Anything outright offensive ( eg .
featuring nudity or bad language ) will get squashed by the mods , but it 's perfectly possible to download user-made car designs covering most conceivable eventualities ( or upload your own ) , including designs which I would have thought have at least the potential to raise trademark issues .
Happily , these are all traded using only in-game currency ; no doubt a relief to those who remember being asked to play 400 MS points for a new skin for a plane in Ace Combat 6.Amusingly ( and for once , this reflects well on MS in a way ) , it is quite possible to download car designs with Playstation logos plastered all over them , and drive them around in what is a single-platform Xbox-flagship game .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>MS certainly seem to have slackened up a lot on this.
Even leaving aside their indie sections on Xbox Live Arcade, we've seen more and more user-created content permitted in games recently.The best recent example is Forza 3, with its custom car skins.
Anything outright offensive (eg.
featuring nudity or bad language) will get squashed by the mods, but it's perfectly possible to download user-made car designs covering most conceivable eventualities (or upload your own), including designs which I would have thought have at least the potential to raise trademark issues.
Happily, these are all traded using only in-game currency; no doubt a relief to those who remember being asked to play 400 MS points for a new skin for a plane in Ace Combat 6.Amusingly (and for once, this reflects well on MS in a way), it is quite possible to download car designs with Playstation logos plastered all over them, and drive them around in what is a single-platform Xbox-flagship game.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830686</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30835134</id>
	<title>TF2 can be excluded</title>
	<author>SeeSp0tRun</author>
	<datestamp>1264015380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>While TF2 does have item upgrades, and "drops," there are mods out there, and even server commands to disable them.  To that effect, there is an extremely active mod community, and it all depends on the servers' administrators.<br> <br>
To add to that, TF2 is a class based game.  Any FPS with as much diversity as TF2 deserves upgrades and the like.</htmltext>
<tokenext>While TF2 does have item upgrades , and " drops , " there are mods out there , and even server commands to disable them .
To that effect , there is an extremely active mod community , and it all depends on the servers ' administrators .
To add to that , TF2 is a class based game .
Any FPS with as much diversity as TF2 deserves upgrades and the like .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While TF2 does have item upgrades, and "drops," there are mods out there, and even server commands to disable them.
To that effect, there is an extremely active mod community, and it all depends on the servers' administrators.
To add to that, TF2 is a class based game.
Any FPS with as much diversity as TF2 deserves upgrades and the like.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830910</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>Yamata no Orochi</author>
	<datestamp>1263997620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Final Fantasy Tactics and the entire Fire Emblem series suggests "not seen often," may not be entirely accurate. Both are pretty damned popular.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Final Fantasy Tactics and the entire Fire Emblem series suggests " not seen often , " may not be entirely accurate .
Both are pretty damned popular .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Final Fantasy Tactics and the entire Fire Emblem series suggests "not seen often," may not be entirely accurate.
Both are pretty damned popular.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830566</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830324</id>
	<title>Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>Toonol</author>
	<datestamp>1263990900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>The removal of Mod Tools in MW2 has nothing to do with any RPG elements.  It is completely feasible for RPGs to have mods, and indeed many popular RPGs have some of the most impressive mods.  Also, the summary mentions Bioshock, but that games was a 'spiritual successor' to System shock 1 &amp; 2, and Bioshock actually was LESS of an RPG than those.<br> <br>

I can understand the complaint about RPG elements (in simple form) creeping into other genres, but a similar problem is faced by RPGs; they are being diluted by other genres.  Look at something like Fallout 3 for an example.  I'd argue that the bigger problem is that ALL game series seem to eventually slowly turn into first person shooters with light rpg elements.  It's a lowest common denominator style of gameplay that is pulling in games from all directions.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The removal of Mod Tools in MW2 has nothing to do with any RPG elements .
It is completely feasible for RPGs to have mods , and indeed many popular RPGs have some of the most impressive mods .
Also , the summary mentions Bioshock , but that games was a 'spiritual successor ' to System shock 1 &amp; 2 , and Bioshock actually was LESS of an RPG than those .
I can understand the complaint about RPG elements ( in simple form ) creeping into other genres , but a similar problem is faced by RPGs ; they are being diluted by other genres .
Look at something like Fallout 3 for an example .
I 'd argue that the bigger problem is that ALL game series seem to eventually slowly turn into first person shooters with light rpg elements .
It 's a lowest common denominator style of gameplay that is pulling in games from all directions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The removal of Mod Tools in MW2 has nothing to do with any RPG elements.
It is completely feasible for RPGs to have mods, and indeed many popular RPGs have some of the most impressive mods.
Also, the summary mentions Bioshock, but that games was a 'spiritual successor' to System shock 1 &amp; 2, and Bioshock actually was LESS of an RPG than those.
I can understand the complaint about RPG elements (in simple form) creeping into other genres, but a similar problem is faced by RPGs; they are being diluted by other genres.
Look at something like Fallout 3 for an example.
I'd argue that the bigger problem is that ALL game series seem to eventually slowly turn into first person shooters with light rpg elements.
It's a lowest common denominator style of gameplay that is pulling in games from all directions.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830338</id>
	<title>Addicted to fake achievement</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263991080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But it's the only chance a lot of people would have (thus broadening their market)...</p><p><a href="http://www.pixelpoppers.com/2009/11/awesome-by-proxy-addicted-to-fake.html" title="pixelpoppers.com">http://www.pixelpoppers.com/2009/11/awesome-by-proxy-addicted-to-fake.html</a> [pixelpoppers.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But it 's the only chance a lot of people would have ( thus broadening their market ) ...http : //www.pixelpoppers.com/2009/11/awesome-by-proxy-addicted-to-fake.html [ pixelpoppers.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But it's the only chance a lot of people would have (thus broadening their market)...http://www.pixelpoppers.com/2009/11/awesome-by-proxy-addicted-to-fake.html [pixelpoppers.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831486</id>
	<title>Re:Two issues here</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264001100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The first, simply put, is a "hot coffee" reaction. As certain countries (eg. Germany and Australia) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content, developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised (or sued) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod.</p></div><p>While Germany may have quite insane restrictions on game content, our judges can at least differentiate between the original game and a mod. At least I've never heard about anyone getting punished over some third party content.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The first , simply put , is a " hot coffee " reaction .
As certain countries ( eg .
Germany and Australia ) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content , developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised ( or sued ) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod.While Germany may have quite insane restrictions on game content , our judges can at least differentiate between the original game and a mod .
At least I 've never heard about anyone getting punished over some third party content .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The first, simply put, is a "hot coffee" reaction.
As certain countries (eg.
Germany and Australia) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content, developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised (or sued) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod.While Germany may have quite insane restrictions on game content, our judges can at least differentiate between the original game and a mod.
At least I've never heard about anyone getting punished over some third party content.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830384</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30832012</id>
	<title>Bad Company?</title>
	<author>rtechie</author>
	<datestamp>1264003380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not even sure I buy the premise. Sure, Battlefield: Bad Company eschewed the PC version altogether and Modern Warfare 2 lacked official mod tools, but I'm not really sure this is a trend. DICE has pointedly announced that the PC version, mod tools, and dedicated server are back for Bad Company 2. You've also got Medal of Honor, Alien vs. Predator, Crysis 2, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not even sure I buy the premise .
Sure , Battlefield : Bad Company eschewed the PC version altogether and Modern Warfare 2 lacked official mod tools , but I 'm not really sure this is a trend .
DICE has pointedly announced that the PC version , mod tools , and dedicated server are back for Bad Company 2 .
You 've also got Medal of Honor , Alien vs. Predator , Crysis 2 , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not even sure I buy the premise.
Sure, Battlefield: Bad Company eschewed the PC version altogether and Modern Warfare 2 lacked official mod tools, but I'm not really sure this is a trend.
DICE has pointedly announced that the PC version, mod tools, and dedicated server are back for Bad Company 2.
You've also got Medal of Honor, Alien vs. Predator, Crysis 2, etc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830314</id>
	<title>Multiplayer-who cares about it.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263990840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The article is all about the multiplayer trash. So it doesn't really matter, no one cares about some shitty multiplayer anyway.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The article is all about the multiplayer trash .
So it does n't really matter , no one cares about some shitty multiplayer anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The article is all about the multiplayer trash.
So it doesn't really matter, no one cares about some shitty multiplayer anyway.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830944</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>Rogerborg</author>
	<datestamp>1263997920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The removal of Mod Tools in MW2 has nothing to do with any RPG elements.</p></div></blockquote><p>Of course it doesn't, it's just a piss-poor bait-and-switch article that starts off pretending to talk about something, anything, other than "Waaah, MW2 is teh suck no 1 bi it!!!!!1!!", then degenerates into exactly that.

</p><p>When will these anti-MW2 weenies get that they lost?  All their pissing and moaning and "I won't buy it!" posturing didn't effect one damn thing about MW2, and the $1 billion sales just prove how irrelevant they are.

</p><p>It's time for them to move on, find a game that they actually like - there <em>are</em> alternatives - and quit their tiresome bitching.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The removal of Mod Tools in MW2 has nothing to do with any RPG elements.Of course it does n't , it 's just a piss-poor bait-and-switch article that starts off pretending to talk about something , anything , other than " Waaah , MW2 is teh suck no 1 bi it ! ! ! ! ! 1 ! !
" , then degenerates into exactly that .
When will these anti-MW2 weenies get that they lost ?
All their pissing and moaning and " I wo n't buy it !
" posturing did n't effect one damn thing about MW2 , and the $ 1 billion sales just prove how irrelevant they are .
It 's time for them to move on , find a game that they actually like - there are alternatives - and quit their tiresome bitching .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The removal of Mod Tools in MW2 has nothing to do with any RPG elements.Of course it doesn't, it's just a piss-poor bait-and-switch article that starts off pretending to talk about something, anything, other than "Waaah, MW2 is teh suck no 1 bi it!!!!!1!!
", then degenerates into exactly that.
When will these anti-MW2 weenies get that they lost?
All their pissing and moaning and "I won't buy it!
" posturing didn't effect one damn thing about MW2, and the $1 billion sales just prove how irrelevant they are.
It's time for them to move on, find a game that they actually like - there are alternatives - and quit their tiresome bitching.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830324</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831650</id>
	<title>Re:Love</title>
	<author>ObsessiveMathsFreak</author>
	<datestamp>1264001820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, some people spend ten years in a living hell of a marriage filled with bickering, friction, conflict, betrayal and sometimes physical conflict.</p><p>Now, even in these cases, there is sometimes still what could be called "love" there; but the end product is not something others would consider very beautiful.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , some people spend ten years in a living hell of a marriage filled with bickering , friction , conflict , betrayal and sometimes physical conflict.Now , even in these cases , there is sometimes still what could be called " love " there ; but the end product is not something others would consider very beautiful .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, some people spend ten years in a living hell of a marriage filled with bickering, friction, conflict, betrayal and sometimes physical conflict.Now, even in these cases, there is sometimes still what could be called "love" there; but the end product is not something others would consider very beautiful.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830488</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30835328</id>
	<title>Re:Really? What are RPG elements?</title>
	<author>DavidTC</author>
	<datestamp>1264016040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>"A roleplaying game is a game where the players actions and choices have a meaningful and lasting effect on the game world and that world changes as a response to it"</i> </p><p>
While that sounds all clever and all, it's fairly idiotic when you actually think about it. That's not what a RPG is currently, and it's not what an RPG <b>ever</b> was. The fact that such a definition include SimCity is not a condemnation of current RPGs, it's a condemnation of a damn stupid definition. There's never been a requirement that 'the world change', nor that it be 'lasting'. Just making up things doesn't make them true.</p><p>
The definition of a roleplaying game is where players have a character with various self-selected skills and traits they start with and that grow as the game progresses, and they can use these different skills in different ways, usually in a non time-sensitive manner. (I.e., they get the time to actually think about what they're doing.) There is some sort of known mathematical model to figure out how well those skill work for what they tried to do.</p><p>
Often there are other characters with different skills, played by either them, other players, or the computer/DM.</p><p>
That's it. That's a 'role playing game', either a video game or a pen and paper one. Pen and paper ones are obviously more flexible in what can happen, but the premise is the same. Anything with those traits is an RPG, anything without is not.</p><p>
Now, over time, this has often been simplified merely to merely combat and combat skills, and that is, perhaps, a shame, but that doesn't change the fact they're RPGs. You could have an RPG that was entirely combat. You could have one that had no combat at all.</p><p>
Oh, and in computer games, <b>genres are defined by the mechanics</b>. Period. You can have a FPS with a certain plot, and an adventure game with the same plot, and a RPG with the same plot. All in different genres.</p><p>
Anyone asserting anything else is, flatly, someone who doesn't know anything about how games are classified. There are no game genres based on content, or plot, or 'how much you change the world'.</p><p>
Now, it's arguably that 'genre' is the wrong word for this, that normally that means 'type of story'...but, OTOH, in TV and movies, 'sci-fi' manages to be a genre, when that's just a \_setting\_, so asking people use genre 'correctly' is a losing battle. If you want to talk about the 'RPG classification' instead of the 'RPG genre', whatever. RPG still defines a gameplay mechanism no matter what you call it.</p><p>
What this 'Desslock' thinks is 'RPG' would actually be better called 'epic', and isn't a genre of video games at all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" A roleplaying game is a game where the players actions and choices have a meaningful and lasting effect on the game world and that world changes as a response to it " While that sounds all clever and all , it 's fairly idiotic when you actually think about it .
That 's not what a RPG is currently , and it 's not what an RPG ever was .
The fact that such a definition include SimCity is not a condemnation of current RPGs , it 's a condemnation of a damn stupid definition .
There 's never been a requirement that 'the world change ' , nor that it be 'lasting' .
Just making up things does n't make them true .
The definition of a roleplaying game is where players have a character with various self-selected skills and traits they start with and that grow as the game progresses , and they can use these different skills in different ways , usually in a non time-sensitive manner .
( I.e. , they get the time to actually think about what they 're doing .
) There is some sort of known mathematical model to figure out how well those skill work for what they tried to do .
Often there are other characters with different skills , played by either them , other players , or the computer/DM .
That 's it .
That 's a 'role playing game ' , either a video game or a pen and paper one .
Pen and paper ones are obviously more flexible in what can happen , but the premise is the same .
Anything with those traits is an RPG , anything without is not .
Now , over time , this has often been simplified merely to merely combat and combat skills , and that is , perhaps , a shame , but that does n't change the fact they 're RPGs .
You could have an RPG that was entirely combat .
You could have one that had no combat at all .
Oh , and in computer games , genres are defined by the mechanics .
Period. You can have a FPS with a certain plot , and an adventure game with the same plot , and a RPG with the same plot .
All in different genres .
Anyone asserting anything else is , flatly , someone who does n't know anything about how games are classified .
There are no game genres based on content , or plot , or 'how much you change the world' .
Now , it 's arguably that 'genre ' is the wrong word for this , that normally that means 'type of story'...but , OTOH , in TV and movies , 'sci-fi ' manages to be a genre , when that 's just a \ _setting \ _ , so asking people use genre 'correctly ' is a losing battle .
If you want to talk about the 'RPG classification ' instead of the 'RPG genre ' , whatever .
RPG still defines a gameplay mechanism no matter what you call it .
What this 'Desslock ' thinks is 'RPG ' would actually be better called 'epic ' , and is n't a genre of video games at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> "A roleplaying game is a game where the players actions and choices have a meaningful and lasting effect on the game world and that world changes as a response to it" 
While that sounds all clever and all, it's fairly idiotic when you actually think about it.
That's not what a RPG is currently, and it's not what an RPG ever was.
The fact that such a definition include SimCity is not a condemnation of current RPGs, it's a condemnation of a damn stupid definition.
There's never been a requirement that 'the world change', nor that it be 'lasting'.
Just making up things doesn't make them true.
The definition of a roleplaying game is where players have a character with various self-selected skills and traits they start with and that grow as the game progresses, and they can use these different skills in different ways, usually in a non time-sensitive manner.
(I.e., they get the time to actually think about what they're doing.
) There is some sort of known mathematical model to figure out how well those skill work for what they tried to do.
Often there are other characters with different skills, played by either them, other players, or the computer/DM.
That's it.
That's a 'role playing game', either a video game or a pen and paper one.
Pen and paper ones are obviously more flexible in what can happen, but the premise is the same.
Anything with those traits is an RPG, anything without is not.
Now, over time, this has often been simplified merely to merely combat and combat skills, and that is, perhaps, a shame, but that doesn't change the fact they're RPGs.
You could have an RPG that was entirely combat.
You could have one that had no combat at all.
Oh, and in computer games, genres are defined by the mechanics.
Period. You can have a FPS with a certain plot, and an adventure game with the same plot, and a RPG with the same plot.
All in different genres.
Anyone asserting anything else is, flatly, someone who doesn't know anything about how games are classified.
There are no game genres based on content, or plot, or 'how much you change the world'.
Now, it's arguably that 'genre' is the wrong word for this, that normally that means 'type of story'...but, OTOH, in TV and movies, 'sci-fi' manages to be a genre, when that's just a \_setting\_, so asking people use genre 'correctly' is a losing battle.
If you want to talk about the 'RPG classification' instead of the 'RPG genre', whatever.
RPG still defines a gameplay mechanism no matter what you call it.
What this 'Desslock' thinks is 'RPG' would actually be better called 'epic', and isn't a genre of video games at all.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30831620</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30841450</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264001460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I hear you about Fallout 3, but you would not be speaking this way had you tried Dragon Age: Origins. That's a solid modern RPG. Make the distinction between Bethesda and Bioware.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I hear you about Fallout 3 , but you would not be speaking this way had you tried Dragon Age : Origins .
That 's a solid modern RPG .
Make the distinction between Bethesda and Bioware .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hear you about Fallout 3, but you would not be speaking this way had you tried Dragon Age: Origins.
That's a solid modern RPG.
Make the distinction between Bethesda and Bioware.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30830324</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30842362</id>
	<title>Re:Not because of RPG elements</title>
	<author>ToasterMonkey</author>
	<datestamp>1264010100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Total Annihilation had a superior game engine but I was really wrapped up in Warcraft's story.</p></div><p>Warcraft, II anyway, did have a high quality story line for its day - but TA didn't just have the superior game engine, it had arguably, the best gameplay for an RTS.. ever..</p><p>It wasn't just a 3D RTS for the sake of being 3D (as in every single RTS since TA), it was only 3D enough to add gameplay value.  Tons of it... planes that actually moved in a 3D space and collided with stray projectiles, oceans with depth, real hills from which weapons could be shot further, indirect weapons that actually worked, valleys that provided cover, etc.  3D aside, there were combined land, air and sea forces of equal capacity, distributed resource gathering, multiple methods of gathering resources, terrain advantages, radar, radar jamming, waypointing, distributed base construction, nuclear missiles, nuclear missile interceptors, you really EARNED super weapons, and really open ended play with very high replayablity.</p><p>Maybe in ten years, C&amp;C 17 will have indirect weapons that don't require line of sight.. or units that are not flat, or terrain that offers [dis]advantages.. like in what's it called, The Art of War?  Maybe hill=good is too hard for RTS gamers to digest, who knows.</p><p>I know you weren't trying to dog TA, I'm just saying gameplay is the most important and ignored aspect of a game.  Everything else is icing on the cake.  I thought it was really funny you used TA in your example, because so many RTS games at that time lacked both imaginative story \_and\_ gameplay, and TA knocked one of those right out the park.  Just too many RTS games back then<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:\</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Total Annihilation had a superior game engine but I was really wrapped up in Warcraft 's story.Warcraft , II anyway , did have a high quality story line for its day - but TA did n't just have the superior game engine , it had arguably , the best gameplay for an RTS.. ever..It was n't just a 3D RTS for the sake of being 3D ( as in every single RTS since TA ) , it was only 3D enough to add gameplay value .
Tons of it... planes that actually moved in a 3D space and collided with stray projectiles , oceans with depth , real hills from which weapons could be shot further , indirect weapons that actually worked , valleys that provided cover , etc .
3D aside , there were combined land , air and sea forces of equal capacity , distributed resource gathering , multiple methods of gathering resources , terrain advantages , radar , radar jamming , waypointing , distributed base construction , nuclear missiles , nuclear missile interceptors , you really EARNED super weapons , and really open ended play with very high replayablity.Maybe in ten years , C&amp;C 17 will have indirect weapons that do n't require line of sight.. or units that are not flat , or terrain that offers [ dis ] advantages.. like in what 's it called , The Art of War ?
Maybe hill = good is too hard for RTS gamers to digest , who knows.I know you were n't trying to dog TA , I 'm just saying gameplay is the most important and ignored aspect of a game .
Everything else is icing on the cake .
I thought it was really funny you used TA in your example , because so many RTS games at that time lacked both imaginative story \ _and \ _ gameplay , and TA knocked one of those right out the park .
Just too many RTS games back then : \</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Total Annihilation had a superior game engine but I was really wrapped up in Warcraft's story.Warcraft, II anyway, did have a high quality story line for its day - but TA didn't just have the superior game engine, it had arguably, the best gameplay for an RTS.. ever..It wasn't just a 3D RTS for the sake of being 3D (as in every single RTS since TA), it was only 3D enough to add gameplay value.
Tons of it... planes that actually moved in a 3D space and collided with stray projectiles, oceans with depth, real hills from which weapons could be shot further, indirect weapons that actually worked, valleys that provided cover, etc.
3D aside, there were combined land, air and sea forces of equal capacity, distributed resource gathering, multiple methods of gathering resources, terrain advantages, radar, radar jamming, waypointing, distributed base construction, nuclear missiles, nuclear missile interceptors, you really EARNED super weapons, and really open ended play with very high replayablity.Maybe in ten years, C&amp;C 17 will have indirect weapons that don't require line of sight.. or units that are not flat, or terrain that offers [dis]advantages.. like in what's it called, The Art of War?
Maybe hill=good is too hard for RTS gamers to digest, who knows.I know you weren't trying to dog TA, I'm just saying gameplay is the most important and ignored aspect of a game.
Everything else is icing on the cake.
I thought it was really funny you used TA in your example, because so many RTS games at that time lacked both imaginative story \_and\_ gameplay, and TA knocked one of those right out the park.
Just too many RTS games back then :\
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_20_0517229.30832340</parent>
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