<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_01_15_153206</id>
	<title>$4,400/Yr. Coders May Work On Dept. of Labor Project</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1263571140000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>theodp writes <i>"To power the <a href="http://www.dol.gov/challenge/">Tools for America's Job Seekers Challenge</a>, the US Department of Labor <a href="http://dolchallenge.ideascale.com/">tapped IdeaScale</a>, a <a href="http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2009/09/28/big-government-means-big-business-for-data-sharing-start-ups/">subsidiary of Survey Analytics</a>, which is headquartered in Seattle with <a href="http://www.questionpro.com/images/Online-Research-Handbook.pdf">satellite offices in Nasik, India and Auckland, NZ</a> (PDF). According to the <a href="http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2009/pdf/E9-27697.pdf">Federal Register</a> (PDF), an Emergency OMB Review was requested to launch the joint initiative of the DOL, White House, and IdeaScale to help out unemployed US workers. A <a href="http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:U5g8ZGgoDGEJ:jobs.monsterindia.com/details/7509127.html\%3Fsig\%3Djs-1-b78efc1b83086bbabef874e2c709edb7-1+ideascale+nasik&amp;cd=6&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk&amp;gl=us">cached Monster.com ad</a> seeks candidates to work on the development and maintenance of ideascale.com, but in India at an annual salary of Rs. 200,000 to 300,000 ($4,4000 to $6,600 US). BTW, an earlier White House-sponsored, IdeaScale-powered <a href="//yro.slashdot.org/story/09/06/03/1155221/Open-Government-Brainstorm-Defies-Wisdom-of-Crowds">Open Government Brainstorm</a> identified legalizing marijuana as one of the best ways to 'strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness.'"</i> There's no guarantee that Indian workers recruited by that Monster.com ad would work on US Department of Labor projects.</htmltext>
<tokenext>theodp writes " To power the Tools for America 's Job Seekers Challenge , the US Department of Labor tapped IdeaScale , a subsidiary of Survey Analytics , which is headquartered in Seattle with satellite offices in Nasik , India and Auckland , NZ ( PDF ) .
According to the Federal Register ( PDF ) , an Emergency OMB Review was requested to launch the joint initiative of the DOL , White House , and IdeaScale to help out unemployed US workers .
A cached Monster.com ad seeks candidates to work on the development and maintenance of ideascale.com , but in India at an annual salary of Rs .
200,000 to 300,000 ( $ 4,4000 to $ 6,600 US ) .
BTW , an earlier White House-sponsored , IdeaScale-powered Open Government Brainstorm identified legalizing marijuana as one of the best ways to 'strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness .
' " There 's no guarantee that Indian workers recruited by that Monster.com ad would work on US Department of Labor projects .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>theodp writes "To power the Tools for America's Job Seekers Challenge, the US Department of Labor tapped IdeaScale, a subsidiary of Survey Analytics, which is headquartered in Seattle with satellite offices in Nasik, India and Auckland, NZ (PDF).
According to the Federal Register (PDF), an Emergency OMB Review was requested to launch the joint initiative of the DOL, White House, and IdeaScale to help out unemployed US workers.
A cached Monster.com ad seeks candidates to work on the development and maintenance of ideascale.com, but in India at an annual salary of Rs.
200,000 to 300,000 ($4,4000 to $6,600 US).
BTW, an earlier White House-sponsored, IdeaScale-powered Open Government Brainstorm identified legalizing marijuana as one of the best ways to 'strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness.
'" There's no guarantee that Indian workers recruited by that Monster.com ad would work on US Department of Labor projects.</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30783256</id>
	<title>Wrong problem.</title>
	<author>delirium of disorder</author>
	<datestamp>1263547260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>How do we make US workers competitive in a world where there are billions of people who can live on so much less? Seriously, do you have any suggestions? Can we stop bitching dlbout [sic] the problem and start solving it?</i>
<br> <br>
I think you are looking at the wrong problem.  The problem is our standard of living.  We want to have more leisure time and/or more control of our working conditions.  We need better health-care and education and secure place to live without working to death in order to earn it.
<br> <br>
We DON't need to be competing with foreign workers.  You mentioned Jim Crow.  It's a racist jingoism that has convinced Americans that they deserve to profit off of the wages of those in the developing world.  We can have a better standard of living when we realize that the Indian programmer has the same interests that we do, and that the Indian's boss and our boss have more in common with each other than with us.
<br> <br>
You mentioned the high cost of taxes and of commuting.  We need to start living in cities again.  Suburban sprawl has cost us both in commuting costs and by atomizing us and keeping us from having a real community.  It's simply more efficient to live near more people.  With a real community, we wouldn't need the state to provide services.  With real community, we wouldn't be duped into funding the terror war and the drug war.  The suburbs tend to be the more reactionary conservative parts of the nation, while the urban areas are the more progressive.
<br> <br>
You mentioned the labor movement.  Real democratic radical unions are the only way workers can gain more power.  Imagine if both you and the workers in the developing world were in the same union.  International solidarity could prevent corporations from constantly moving production to whichever nation has the worst labor and human rights records.  We need democratic accountable unions.  Not the AFL/CIO or SEIU or the Teamsters.  We need unions like the <a href="http://www.ueunion.org/" title="ueunion.org">UE</a> [ueunion.org] and the <a href="http://www.iww.org/" title="iww.org">IWW</a> [iww.org].
<br> <br>
The ultimate goal should be workers self management of all industry.  Wall Street speculators and bosses are in it to make money for themselves in the short term, while workers interests are in creating sustainable jobs with good wages, benefits, and working conditions.</htmltext>
<tokenext>How do we make US workers competitive in a world where there are billions of people who can live on so much less ?
Seriously , do you have any suggestions ?
Can we stop bitching dlbout [ sic ] the problem and start solving it ?
I think you are looking at the wrong problem .
The problem is our standard of living .
We want to have more leisure time and/or more control of our working conditions .
We need better health-care and education and secure place to live without working to death in order to earn it .
We DO N't need to be competing with foreign workers .
You mentioned Jim Crow .
It 's a racist jingoism that has convinced Americans that they deserve to profit off of the wages of those in the developing world .
We can have a better standard of living when we realize that the Indian programmer has the same interests that we do , and that the Indian 's boss and our boss have more in common with each other than with us .
You mentioned the high cost of taxes and of commuting .
We need to start living in cities again .
Suburban sprawl has cost us both in commuting costs and by atomizing us and keeping us from having a real community .
It 's simply more efficient to live near more people .
With a real community , we would n't need the state to provide services .
With real community , we would n't be duped into funding the terror war and the drug war .
The suburbs tend to be the more reactionary conservative parts of the nation , while the urban areas are the more progressive .
You mentioned the labor movement .
Real democratic radical unions are the only way workers can gain more power .
Imagine if both you and the workers in the developing world were in the same union .
International solidarity could prevent corporations from constantly moving production to whichever nation has the worst labor and human rights records .
We need democratic accountable unions .
Not the AFL/CIO or SEIU or the Teamsters .
We need unions like the UE [ ueunion.org ] and the IWW [ iww.org ] .
The ultimate goal should be workers self management of all industry .
Wall Street speculators and bosses are in it to make money for themselves in the short term , while workers interests are in creating sustainable jobs with good wages , benefits , and working conditions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How do we make US workers competitive in a world where there are billions of people who can live on so much less?
Seriously, do you have any suggestions?
Can we stop bitching dlbout [sic] the problem and start solving it?
I think you are looking at the wrong problem.
The problem is our standard of living.
We want to have more leisure time and/or more control of our working conditions.
We need better health-care and education and secure place to live without working to death in order to earn it.
We DON't need to be competing with foreign workers.
You mentioned Jim Crow.
It's a racist jingoism that has convinced Americans that they deserve to profit off of the wages of those in the developing world.
We can have a better standard of living when we realize that the Indian programmer has the same interests that we do, and that the Indian's boss and our boss have more in common with each other than with us.
You mentioned the high cost of taxes and of commuting.
We need to start living in cities again.
Suburban sprawl has cost us both in commuting costs and by atomizing us and keeping us from having a real community.
It's simply more efficient to live near more people.
With a real community, we wouldn't need the state to provide services.
With real community, we wouldn't be duped into funding the terror war and the drug war.
The suburbs tend to be the more reactionary conservative parts of the nation, while the urban areas are the more progressive.
You mentioned the labor movement.
Real democratic radical unions are the only way workers can gain more power.
Imagine if both you and the workers in the developing world were in the same union.
International solidarity could prevent corporations from constantly moving production to whichever nation has the worst labor and human rights records.
We need democratic accountable unions.
Not the AFL/CIO or SEIU or the Teamsters.
We need unions like the UE [ueunion.org] and the IWW [iww.org].
The ultimate goal should be workers self management of all industry.
Wall Street speculators and bosses are in it to make money for themselves in the short term, while workers interests are in creating sustainable jobs with good wages, benefits, and working conditions.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781666</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780094</id>
	<title>Call or e-mail your Congress-Person</title>
	<author>catherder\_finleyd</author>
	<datestamp>1263577260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would urge US slashdotters to call or e-mail your Congress-Person. If this is really true, it is a violation of US Federal Contracting standards. Generally, Federal IT contracts specify all workers on the contract to be either US Citizens or Permanent Residents.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would urge US slashdotters to call or e-mail your Congress-Person .
If this is really true , it is a violation of US Federal Contracting standards .
Generally , Federal IT contracts specify all workers on the contract to be either US Citizens or Permanent Residents .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would urge US slashdotters to call or e-mail your Congress-Person.
If this is really true, it is a violation of US Federal Contracting standards.
Generally, Federal IT contracts specify all workers on the contract to be either US Citizens or Permanent Residents.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30783042</id>
	<title>Re:So, what you going to do?</title>
	<author>couchslug</author>
	<datestamp>1263546240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Americans don't band together because we don't have anything in common.</p><p>Our country is full of people who are here for the (now diminished) economic opportunity and because the failure of their states of origin coerced them to move to the Land of Free Stuff. They are not here for anything else because the culture of those who founded the US is as utterly alien to them as Mars. The US needed stoop labor, but doesn't need it as much any more because the bubble which funded it burst.</p><p>We are not a melting pot that can digest extremely dissimilar societies (this is not to say one is better than another), so it's every man for himself and selected peers. That is a logical response.</p><p>The government hands out stuff to people who squall loud enough. It doesn't reward virtue because it must buy votes from the mob and from business. If you don't have a bloc of votes to sell you cannot matter. Diversity means smaller voting blocs, coercing voters to choose between them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Americans do n't band together because we do n't have anything in common.Our country is full of people who are here for the ( now diminished ) economic opportunity and because the failure of their states of origin coerced them to move to the Land of Free Stuff .
They are not here for anything else because the culture of those who founded the US is as utterly alien to them as Mars .
The US needed stoop labor , but does n't need it as much any more because the bubble which funded it burst.We are not a melting pot that can digest extremely dissimilar societies ( this is not to say one is better than another ) , so it 's every man for himself and selected peers .
That is a logical response.The government hands out stuff to people who squall loud enough .
It does n't reward virtue because it must buy votes from the mob and from business .
If you do n't have a bloc of votes to sell you can not matter .
Diversity means smaller voting blocs , coercing voters to choose between them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Americans don't band together because we don't have anything in common.Our country is full of people who are here for the (now diminished) economic opportunity and because the failure of their states of origin coerced them to move to the Land of Free Stuff.
They are not here for anything else because the culture of those who founded the US is as utterly alien to them as Mars.
The US needed stoop labor, but doesn't need it as much any more because the bubble which funded it burst.We are not a melting pot that can digest extremely dissimilar societies (this is not to say one is better than another), so it's every man for himself and selected peers.
That is a logical response.The government hands out stuff to people who squall loud enough.
It doesn't reward virtue because it must buy votes from the mob and from business.
If you don't have a bloc of votes to sell you cannot matter.
Diversity means smaller voting blocs, coercing voters to choose between them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781666</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30782854</id>
	<title>Re:When it comes to programming</title>
	<author>nomadic</author>
	<datestamp>1263588480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>A lot of people tend to think that just because the person is over in India they'll be willing to work for a sub-average wage. Which, given regular circumstances, is generally true. Coding is another thing all together. If you live in a poverish state, you can't be expected to know C++. In fact it might be a stretch to say you know how to operate a computer. Those people who get hired for "Tech Support" aren't guru's by any means (and I think we all knew that). But they have been trained how to handle with customers, the basics of operating a computer, and are given a good list of responses. Programming is not something you can train "on the job". You need previous knowledge on the basics of computers. Then you need to learn a bit of program theory, how it all works. Lastly you need to learn the Syntax of various languages. A lot of people drop out when they can't deal with the Syntax. Some people drop out when they can't get the theory. Some people just don't like computers. You can't hire someone off the street and think that within a short time they'll be able to pick up all of those skills.</i>
<br>
<br>
I think a lot of the blame for the myth of the supercompetent Indian programmer comes from Michael Lewis's dot-com era book the New New Thing, which described the IIT system and make it sound like it produced legions of the best programmers in the world.  While the IITs are excellent schools and produce some first-rate programmers, Lewis overstated it.  Also, a lot of these outsourcing proponents don't realize that most of the programmers they're going to get are not IIT grads.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A lot of people tend to think that just because the person is over in India they 'll be willing to work for a sub-average wage .
Which , given regular circumstances , is generally true .
Coding is another thing all together .
If you live in a poverish state , you ca n't be expected to know C + + .
In fact it might be a stretch to say you know how to operate a computer .
Those people who get hired for " Tech Support " are n't guru 's by any means ( and I think we all knew that ) .
But they have been trained how to handle with customers , the basics of operating a computer , and are given a good list of responses .
Programming is not something you can train " on the job " .
You need previous knowledge on the basics of computers .
Then you need to learn a bit of program theory , how it all works .
Lastly you need to learn the Syntax of various languages .
A lot of people drop out when they ca n't deal with the Syntax .
Some people drop out when they ca n't get the theory .
Some people just do n't like computers .
You ca n't hire someone off the street and think that within a short time they 'll be able to pick up all of those skills .
I think a lot of the blame for the myth of the supercompetent Indian programmer comes from Michael Lewis 's dot-com era book the New New Thing , which described the IIT system and make it sound like it produced legions of the best programmers in the world .
While the IITs are excellent schools and produce some first-rate programmers , Lewis overstated it .
Also , a lot of these outsourcing proponents do n't realize that most of the programmers they 're going to get are not IIT grads .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A lot of people tend to think that just because the person is over in India they'll be willing to work for a sub-average wage.
Which, given regular circumstances, is generally true.
Coding is another thing all together.
If you live in a poverish state, you can't be expected to know C++.
In fact it might be a stretch to say you know how to operate a computer.
Those people who get hired for "Tech Support" aren't guru's by any means (and I think we all knew that).
But they have been trained how to handle with customers, the basics of operating a computer, and are given a good list of responses.
Programming is not something you can train "on the job".
You need previous knowledge on the basics of computers.
Then you need to learn a bit of program theory, how it all works.
Lastly you need to learn the Syntax of various languages.
A lot of people drop out when they can't deal with the Syntax.
Some people drop out when they can't get the theory.
Some people just don't like computers.
You can't hire someone off the street and think that within a short time they'll be able to pick up all of those skills.
I think a lot of the blame for the myth of the supercompetent Indian programmer comes from Michael Lewis's dot-com era book the New New Thing, which described the IIT system and make it sound like it produced legions of the best programmers in the world.
While the IITs are excellent schools and produce some first-rate programmers, Lewis overstated it.
Also, a lot of these outsourcing proponents don't realize that most of the programmers they're going to get are not IIT grads.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780420</id>
	<title>Re:When it comes to programming</title>
	<author>runbadscott</author>
	<datestamp>1263578640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think you nailed it. I always tell people to be extremely cautious when considering outsourcing to another country.

Some of the issues that I have run into in the web development world:
   1) After a project is completed the code usually gets reused and sold.
   2) Language barrier.
   3) Commitment to the project (outsourcing 'company' just got up and left).
   4) Time zone issues.

Last year I had a hand full of projects from people that came to me asking me to fix the mess they got into with outsourcing! And in the end it cost them 3x more that they originally budgeted.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think you nailed it .
I always tell people to be extremely cautious when considering outsourcing to another country .
Some of the issues that I have run into in the web development world : 1 ) After a project is completed the code usually gets reused and sold .
2 ) Language barrier .
3 ) Commitment to the project ( outsourcing 'company ' just got up and left ) .
4 ) Time zone issues .
Last year I had a hand full of projects from people that came to me asking me to fix the mess they got into with outsourcing !
And in the end it cost them 3x more that they originally budgeted .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think you nailed it.
I always tell people to be extremely cautious when considering outsourcing to another country.
Some of the issues that I have run into in the web development world:
   1) After a project is completed the code usually gets reused and sold.
2) Language barrier.
3) Commitment to the project (outsourcing 'company' just got up and left).
4) Time zone issues.
Last year I had a hand full of projects from people that came to me asking me to fix the mess they got into with outsourcing!
And in the end it cost them 3x more that they originally budgeted.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780178</id>
	<title>Re:It's Worse Than You think!</title>
	<author>olderchurch</author>
	<datestamp>1263577620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sorry to dissapoint you, but cannabis is not legal in the Netherlands. The police and politicians have decided to tolerate small amounts of cannabis, so they can spend their time chasing and prosecuting people that sell "hard" drugs like cocaine, lsd, etc and people that trade cannabis in large quantaties. You can read more on wikipedia:<br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug\_policy\_of\_the\_Netherlands" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug\_policy\_of\_the\_Netherlands</a> [wikipedia.org]<br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality\_of\_cannabis" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality\_of\_cannabis</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry to dissapoint you , but cannabis is not legal in the Netherlands .
The police and politicians have decided to tolerate small amounts of cannabis , so they can spend their time chasing and prosecuting people that sell " hard " drugs like cocaine , lsd , etc and people that trade cannabis in large quantaties .
You can read more on wikipedia : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug \ _policy \ _of \ _the \ _Netherlands [ wikipedia.org ] http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality \ _of \ _cannabis [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry to dissapoint you, but cannabis is not legal in the Netherlands.
The police and politicians have decided to tolerate small amounts of cannabis, so they can spend their time chasing and prosecuting people that sell "hard" drugs like cocaine, lsd, etc and people that trade cannabis in large quantaties.
You can read more on wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug\_policy\_of\_the\_Netherlands [wikipedia.org]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality\_of\_cannabis [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779824</id>
	<title>But, it's the Free Market, right?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263575940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sure, it might be driving down wages and benefits for Americans and allowing other nations to leverage our infrastructure for their profit, but isn't that just one of the perks of being a Friedmannite economy?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure , it might be driving down wages and benefits for Americans and allowing other nations to leverage our infrastructure for their profit , but is n't that just one of the perks of being a Friedmannite economy ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure, it might be driving down wages and benefits for Americans and allowing other nations to leverage our infrastructure for their profit, but isn't that just one of the perks of being a Friedmannite economy?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781704</id>
	<title>Re:Giant Deficits...</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1263583560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You are correct, the US Government has greatly increased it's deficit spending (which started under GW Bush; Clinton actually had a surplus) in order to deal with the Global Banking Crisis... as has practically every other country in the world, including China. It seems illogical to me that their solution to a crisis caused by keeping interest rates too low for too long, encouraging wild speculation, can be solved by doing more of the same, but conventional wisdom suggests that this is the way to go. The Republicans do serve a useful purpose in reminding everybody that eventually we need to pay the piper, but other than that their activities as of late seem self-destructive. Weaning companies off of "Bailout" money without triggering another recession will require a delicate balancing act -- hopefully Obama's administration can handle it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You are correct , the US Government has greatly increased it 's deficit spending ( which started under GW Bush ; Clinton actually had a surplus ) in order to deal with the Global Banking Crisis... as has practically every other country in the world , including China .
It seems illogical to me that their solution to a crisis caused by keeping interest rates too low for too long , encouraging wild speculation , can be solved by doing more of the same , but conventional wisdom suggests that this is the way to go .
The Republicans do serve a useful purpose in reminding everybody that eventually we need to pay the piper , but other than that their activities as of late seem self-destructive .
Weaning companies off of " Bailout " money without triggering another recession will require a delicate balancing act -- hopefully Obama 's administration can handle it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are correct, the US Government has greatly increased it's deficit spending (which started under GW Bush; Clinton actually had a surplus) in order to deal with the Global Banking Crisis... as has practically every other country in the world, including China.
It seems illogical to me that their solution to a crisis caused by keeping interest rates too low for too long, encouraging wild speculation, can be solved by doing more of the same, but conventional wisdom suggests that this is the way to go.
The Republicans do serve a useful purpose in reminding everybody that eventually we need to pay the piper, but other than that their activities as of late seem self-destructive.
Weaning companies off of "Bailout" money without triggering another recession will require a delicate balancing act -- hopefully Obama's administration can handle it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780484</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30782908</id>
	<title>Re:So, what you going to do?</title>
	<author>Digital Mage</author>
	<datestamp>1263588720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We need to work in our local cities and communities to retrofit our urban designs so that we aren't forced into a very expensive lifestyle.<br>Two great sources to start:</p><p><a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/james\_howard\_kunstler\_dissects\_suburbia.html" title="ted.com">http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/james\_howard\_kunstler\_dissects\_suburbia.html</a> [ted.com]</p><p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Suburban-Nation-Sprawl-Decline-American/dp/0865476063/ref=sr\_1\_20?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1263584896&amp;sr=8-20" title="amazon.com">http://www.amazon.com/Suburban-Nation-Sprawl-Decline-American/dp/0865476063/ref=sr\_1\_20?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1263584896&amp;sr=8-20</a> [amazon.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We need to work in our local cities and communities to retrofit our urban designs so that we are n't forced into a very expensive lifestyle.Two great sources to start : http : //www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/james \ _howard \ _kunstler \ _dissects \ _suburbia.html [ ted.com ] http : //www.amazon.com/Suburban-Nation-Sprawl-Decline-American/dp/0865476063/ref = sr \ _1 \ _20 ? ie = UTF8&amp;s = books&amp;qid = 1263584896&amp;sr = 8-20 [ amazon.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We need to work in our local cities and communities to retrofit our urban designs so that we aren't forced into a very expensive lifestyle.Two great sources to start:http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/james\_howard\_kunstler\_dissects\_suburbia.html [ted.com]http://www.amazon.com/Suburban-Nation-Sprawl-Decline-American/dp/0865476063/ref=sr\_1\_20?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1263584896&amp;sr=8-20 [amazon.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781666</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30783342</id>
	<title>Re:When it comes to programming</title>
	<author>funwithBSD</author>
	<datestamp>1263547620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Who says it is a substandard wage?</p><p>I have Indian colleagues and they are stunned what it costs to do basic things here in the US.<br>Lunch for him is about 15 Cents US. (I don't know what he makes, but I know he supports an extended family of about 35 people, some of who also work, but if he lost his job they would be forced to move/lose the flats. He brings in \%75 of the money)</p><p>Other things are luxuries we consider necessities. Gas costs about the same, so very expensive for him, less so for us. A car? Same, but cars are cheaper but still a year's salary. Half a year for us here on average.</p><p>The cost of living and expectations are much lower, so they are "well off" even at the salary he makes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Who says it is a substandard wage ? I have Indian colleagues and they are stunned what it costs to do basic things here in the US.Lunch for him is about 15 Cents US .
( I do n't know what he makes , but I know he supports an extended family of about 35 people , some of who also work , but if he lost his job they would be forced to move/lose the flats .
He brings in \ % 75 of the money ) Other things are luxuries we consider necessities .
Gas costs about the same , so very expensive for him , less so for us .
A car ?
Same , but cars are cheaper but still a year 's salary .
Half a year for us here on average.The cost of living and expectations are much lower , so they are " well off " even at the salary he makes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Who says it is a substandard wage?I have Indian colleagues and they are stunned what it costs to do basic things here in the US.Lunch for him is about 15 Cents US.
(I don't know what he makes, but I know he supports an extended family of about 35 people, some of who also work, but if he lost his job they would be forced to move/lose the flats.
He brings in \%75 of the money)Other things are luxuries we consider necessities.
Gas costs about the same, so very expensive for him, less so for us.
A car?
Same, but cars are cheaper but still a year's salary.
Half a year for us here on average.The cost of living and expectations are much lower, so they are "well off" even at the salary he makes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780728</id>
	<title>Re:Fine, just make it fair</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263579780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What's good for the goose is good for the gander.</p></div><p>I felt that wearing a condom reduces the pleasure for the males...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What 's good for the goose is good for the gander.I felt that wearing a condom reduces the pleasure for the males.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What's good for the goose is good for the gander.I felt that wearing a condom reduces the pleasure for the males...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780164</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781236</id>
	<title>Re:The Inconvenient Truth</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263581760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Alcohol harmless? I don't think there's any drug that does as much damage as alcohol.</p></div><p>Heroin?  Methamphetamine?  Cocaine?  Mercury-laced cigarettes?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Alcohol harmless ?
I do n't think there 's any drug that does as much damage as alcohol.Heroin ?
Methamphetamine ? Cocaine ?
Mercury-laced cigarettes ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Alcohol harmless?
I don't think there's any drug that does as much damage as alcohol.Heroin?
Methamphetamine?  Cocaine?
Mercury-laced cigarettes?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780130</id>
	<title>Re:It's Worse Than You think!</title>
	<author>Zero\_\_Kelvin</author>
	<datestamp>1263577500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>"BTW, an earlier White House-sponsored, IdeaScale-powered Open Government Brainstorm identified legalizing marijuana as one of the best ways to 'strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness."</p><blockquote><div><p>"I'm not sure the pot thing was so out-of-line actually."</p></div></blockquote></div> </blockquote><p>I was assuming that it continues along the wasteful spending theme.  Why would the government spend money to conclude the phenomenally obvious fact that anyone who isn't either uninformed or a moron has known for decades? <i>(answer: you can't finally argue for doing the correct thing after years of active government disinformation campaigns without a goverment study to show to those same wrongly informed sheeple)</i> <br> <br>  Of course I may have been giving theodp the benefit of the doubt when he actually <b> <i>does</i></b>  think keeping marijuana illegal helps strengthen our democracy.  After all, nothing shouts freedom from the rooftops like Uncle Sam telling you what plants you can and cannot grow and consume<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" BTW , an earlier White House-sponsored , IdeaScale-powered Open Government Brainstorm identified legalizing marijuana as one of the best ways to 'strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness .
" " I 'm not sure the pot thing was so out-of-line actually .
" I was assuming that it continues along the wasteful spending theme .
Why would the government spend money to conclude the phenomenally obvious fact that anyone who is n't either uninformed or a moron has known for decades ?
( answer : you ca n't finally argue for doing the correct thing after years of active government disinformation campaigns without a goverment study to show to those same wrongly informed sheeple ) Of course I may have been giving theodp the benefit of the doubt when he actually does think keeping marijuana illegal helps strengthen our democracy .
After all , nothing shouts freedom from the rooftops like Uncle Sam telling you what plants you can and can not grow and consume ; - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"BTW, an earlier White House-sponsored, IdeaScale-powered Open Government Brainstorm identified legalizing marijuana as one of the best ways to 'strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness.
""I'm not sure the pot thing was so out-of-line actually.
" I was assuming that it continues along the wasteful spending theme.
Why would the government spend money to conclude the phenomenally obvious fact that anyone who isn't either uninformed or a moron has known for decades?
(answer: you can't finally argue for doing the correct thing after years of active government disinformation campaigns without a goverment study to show to those same wrongly informed sheeple)    Of course I may have been giving theodp the benefit of the doubt when he actually  does  think keeping marijuana illegal helps strengthen our democracy.
After all, nothing shouts freedom from the rooftops like Uncle Sam telling you what plants you can and cannot grow and consume ;-)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779734</id>
	<title>When it comes to programming</title>
	<author>Monkeedude1212</author>
	<datestamp>1263575460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You get what you pay for.</p><p>A lot of people tend to think that just because the person is over in India they'll be willing to work for a sub-average wage. Which, given regular circumstances, is generally true. Coding is another thing all together. If you live in a poverish state, you can't be expected to know C++. In fact it might be a stretch to say you know how to operate a computer. Those people who get hired for "Tech Support" aren't guru's by any means (and I think we all knew that). But they have been trained how to handle with customers, the basics of operating a computer, and are given a good list of responses. Programming is not something you can train "on the job". You need previous knowledge on the basics of computers. Then you need to learn a bit of program theory, how it all works. Lastly you need to learn the Syntax of various languages. A lot of people drop out when they can't deal with the Syntax. Some people drop out when they can't get the theory. Some people just don't like computers. You can't hire someone off the street and think that within a short time they'll be able to pick up all of those skills.</p><p>That's not to say there aren't educated programmers that come from developing countries. Every once in a while a hard working family will be able to afford an education, and once they have that education, they usually fly stateside to make more money. They know that with their education they can be making way more money than 4400 USD a year. So they go and tack an extra digit to that paycheck, keep half and the other half is more than enough to either fly the family to the States or support them in India.</p><p>Basically what it boils down to, they're going to get some guy who can talk the talk but not walk the walk. He'll agree to $4400 a year for as long as he can hold the job since he was only make $1000 a year back at his old job. Because anyone who knows what they're doing knows they are worth more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You get what you pay for.A lot of people tend to think that just because the person is over in India they 'll be willing to work for a sub-average wage .
Which , given regular circumstances , is generally true .
Coding is another thing all together .
If you live in a poverish state , you ca n't be expected to know C + + .
In fact it might be a stretch to say you know how to operate a computer .
Those people who get hired for " Tech Support " are n't guru 's by any means ( and I think we all knew that ) .
But they have been trained how to handle with customers , the basics of operating a computer , and are given a good list of responses .
Programming is not something you can train " on the job " .
You need previous knowledge on the basics of computers .
Then you need to learn a bit of program theory , how it all works .
Lastly you need to learn the Syntax of various languages .
A lot of people drop out when they ca n't deal with the Syntax .
Some people drop out when they ca n't get the theory .
Some people just do n't like computers .
You ca n't hire someone off the street and think that within a short time they 'll be able to pick up all of those skills.That 's not to say there are n't educated programmers that come from developing countries .
Every once in a while a hard working family will be able to afford an education , and once they have that education , they usually fly stateside to make more money .
They know that with their education they can be making way more money than 4400 USD a year .
So they go and tack an extra digit to that paycheck , keep half and the other half is more than enough to either fly the family to the States or support them in India.Basically what it boils down to , they 're going to get some guy who can talk the talk but not walk the walk .
He 'll agree to $ 4400 a year for as long as he can hold the job since he was only make $ 1000 a year back at his old job .
Because anyone who knows what they 're doing knows they are worth more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You get what you pay for.A lot of people tend to think that just because the person is over in India they'll be willing to work for a sub-average wage.
Which, given regular circumstances, is generally true.
Coding is another thing all together.
If you live in a poverish state, you can't be expected to know C++.
In fact it might be a stretch to say you know how to operate a computer.
Those people who get hired for "Tech Support" aren't guru's by any means (and I think we all knew that).
But they have been trained how to handle with customers, the basics of operating a computer, and are given a good list of responses.
Programming is not something you can train "on the job".
You need previous knowledge on the basics of computers.
Then you need to learn a bit of program theory, how it all works.
Lastly you need to learn the Syntax of various languages.
A lot of people drop out when they can't deal with the Syntax.
Some people drop out when they can't get the theory.
Some people just don't like computers.
You can't hire someone off the street and think that within a short time they'll be able to pick up all of those skills.That's not to say there aren't educated programmers that come from developing countries.
Every once in a while a hard working family will be able to afford an education, and once they have that education, they usually fly stateside to make more money.
They know that with their education they can be making way more money than 4400 USD a year.
So they go and tack an extra digit to that paycheck, keep half and the other half is more than enough to either fly the family to the States or support them in India.Basically what it boils down to, they're going to get some guy who can talk the talk but not walk the walk.
He'll agree to $4400 a year for as long as he can hold the job since he was only make $1000 a year back at his old job.
Because anyone who knows what they're doing knows they are worth more.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780484</id>
	<title>Giant Deficits...</title>
	<author>CohibaVancouver</author>
	<datestamp>1263578880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm not an American and I don't live in the USA, but from the outside looking in, it seems to me the USA is running up GIGANTIC debts and deficits, with the citizenry unwilling to pay additional taxes (i.e. consumption taxes like a VAT) to fund government spending.<br> <br>

So to me this seems like a good way to get spending under control.  You can't on the one hand be unwilling to pay taxes and on the other hand want the government to hire $80K/year coders - If the US citizens have said no more taxes then they have to accept government cost-cutting like this...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not an American and I do n't live in the USA , but from the outside looking in , it seems to me the USA is running up GIGANTIC debts and deficits , with the citizenry unwilling to pay additional taxes ( i.e .
consumption taxes like a VAT ) to fund government spending .
So to me this seems like a good way to get spending under control .
You ca n't on the one hand be unwilling to pay taxes and on the other hand want the government to hire $ 80K/year coders - If the US citizens have said no more taxes then they have to accept government cost-cutting like this.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not an American and I don't live in the USA, but from the outside looking in, it seems to me the USA is running up GIGANTIC debts and deficits, with the citizenry unwilling to pay additional taxes (i.e.
consumption taxes like a VAT) to fund government spending.
So to me this seems like a good way to get spending under control.
You can't on the one hand be unwilling to pay taxes and on the other hand want the government to hire $80K/year coders - If the US citizens have said no more taxes then they have to accept government cost-cutting like this...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781128</id>
	<title>Re:The Inconvenient Truth</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263581340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Our pro-theocracy religionists disapprove of any distraction from suffering for Jesus.<br>Any pleasure must be rationed by the religionists (sex) or eliminated (pleasurable chemicals) because they are levers of social control and damn (pun intended) the consequences.</p><p>The War on Some Drugs is a pure product of US religionist (p)uritanism.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Our pro-theocracy religionists disapprove of any distraction from suffering for Jesus.Any pleasure must be rationed by the religionists ( sex ) or eliminated ( pleasurable chemicals ) because they are levers of social control and damn ( pun intended ) the consequences.The War on Some Drugs is a pure product of US religionist ( p ) uritanism .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Our pro-theocracy religionists disapprove of any distraction from suffering for Jesus.Any pleasure must be rationed by the religionists (sex) or eliminated (pleasurable chemicals) because they are levers of social control and damn (pun intended) the consequences.The War on Some Drugs is a pure product of US religionist (p)uritanism.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780166</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780460</id>
	<title>Re:When it comes to programming</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1263578760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Quite dead on, I wonder if PHBs will ever realize that.</p><p>Face it, programming is nothing you can simply teach. Hell, it's been tried with some of our unemployed people here. They got stuffed into programming classes and were supposed to become VB programmers. Nothing fancy, nothing sophisticated, Visual Basic. Basically, they were useless. We tried to hire some of those fast breeder cram-into-cranium programmers. I use the term loosely. They could not translate a problem into code. What they would have needed was you to dissect the problem into identifyable pieces that matched the patterns they learned. Sorry, but programming doesn't work that way.</p><p>Now, India has a history of having kickass mathematicians. And I don't doubt that there are incredibly good programmers amongst them. But you can't simply pick someone up and make him a programmer. I'm still self absorbed enough to even claim it takes a special kind of person to be a good programmer. And yes, they exist too in India, but like you said, they're already packing and going. What's left is the same kind of programmer we get pumped out here from adult training programs. They might even know the syntax, but they can't translate problem into code. It's like learning an instrument and knowing all the notes but not knowing how to play.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Quite dead on , I wonder if PHBs will ever realize that.Face it , programming is nothing you can simply teach .
Hell , it 's been tried with some of our unemployed people here .
They got stuffed into programming classes and were supposed to become VB programmers .
Nothing fancy , nothing sophisticated , Visual Basic .
Basically , they were useless .
We tried to hire some of those fast breeder cram-into-cranium programmers .
I use the term loosely .
They could not translate a problem into code .
What they would have needed was you to dissect the problem into identifyable pieces that matched the patterns they learned .
Sorry , but programming does n't work that way.Now , India has a history of having kickass mathematicians .
And I do n't doubt that there are incredibly good programmers amongst them .
But you ca n't simply pick someone up and make him a programmer .
I 'm still self absorbed enough to even claim it takes a special kind of person to be a good programmer .
And yes , they exist too in India , but like you said , they 're already packing and going .
What 's left is the same kind of programmer we get pumped out here from adult training programs .
They might even know the syntax , but they ca n't translate problem into code .
It 's like learning an instrument and knowing all the notes but not knowing how to play .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Quite dead on, I wonder if PHBs will ever realize that.Face it, programming is nothing you can simply teach.
Hell, it's been tried with some of our unemployed people here.
They got stuffed into programming classes and were supposed to become VB programmers.
Nothing fancy, nothing sophisticated, Visual Basic.
Basically, they were useless.
We tried to hire some of those fast breeder cram-into-cranium programmers.
I use the term loosely.
They could not translate a problem into code.
What they would have needed was you to dissect the problem into identifyable pieces that matched the patterns they learned.
Sorry, but programming doesn't work that way.Now, India has a history of having kickass mathematicians.
And I don't doubt that there are incredibly good programmers amongst them.
But you can't simply pick someone up and make him a programmer.
I'm still self absorbed enough to even claim it takes a special kind of person to be a good programmer.
And yes, they exist too in India, but like you said, they're already packing and going.
What's left is the same kind of programmer we get pumped out here from adult training programs.
They might even know the syntax, but they can't translate problem into code.
It's like learning an instrument and knowing all the notes but not knowing how to play.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30783976</id>
	<title>Re:The Inconvenient Truth</title>
	<author>kz45</author>
	<datestamp>1263550260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Our anti-pot drug policies eliminate any possibility of salutary tax revenue from an industry that's worth billions even as a black market. In addition to that, we have to catch, try and incarcerate pot growers, sellers, and users at staggering expense (also billions, when all is said and done)."</p><p>People always lump in users with sellers that are "thrown in jail" and I just don't believe it.  I haven't heard of a person in the US going to Jail for just having a small amount of pot or smoking a joint.  Unless you are a dealer, the cops and the feds don't even bother.</p><p>"Pot is basically as harmless as alcohol, but since we force our educators and police to demonize it even while half of them use it themselves, we undercut the entire credibility of our anti-drug programs (which are important for helping kids avoid drugs that are actually dangerous). So not only do we get no tax on billions, but we spend billions, and we contribute to actual drug problems (at what additional cost I hesitate to guess)."</p><p>As Harmless as alcohol?  Alcohol destroys your liver.  This is a scientific fact.  I honestly don't think we've done enough scientific studies on the long-term effects of pot.</p><p>Just from my own personal experience, from the vast amount of friends that have used pot, it destroys your motivation and makes you lazy.  I suppose if this is what you want to do with your life, it's fine, it just means less competition for me in the workplace.</p><p>People are also still suing the cigarette companies for getting cancer, even though warning labels have been on the packages for &gt; 20 years.  Why would the government want to open the door for more lawsuits?</p><p>and what about health care? I hope that people that do smoke it end up having to pay more in premiums (government or private).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Our anti-pot drug policies eliminate any possibility of salutary tax revenue from an industry that 's worth billions even as a black market .
In addition to that , we have to catch , try and incarcerate pot growers , sellers , and users at staggering expense ( also billions , when all is said and done ) .
" People always lump in users with sellers that are " thrown in jail " and I just do n't believe it .
I have n't heard of a person in the US going to Jail for just having a small amount of pot or smoking a joint .
Unless you are a dealer , the cops and the feds do n't even bother .
" Pot is basically as harmless as alcohol , but since we force our educators and police to demonize it even while half of them use it themselves , we undercut the entire credibility of our anti-drug programs ( which are important for helping kids avoid drugs that are actually dangerous ) .
So not only do we get no tax on billions , but we spend billions , and we contribute to actual drug problems ( at what additional cost I hesitate to guess ) .
" As Harmless as alcohol ?
Alcohol destroys your liver .
This is a scientific fact .
I honestly do n't think we 've done enough scientific studies on the long-term effects of pot.Just from my own personal experience , from the vast amount of friends that have used pot , it destroys your motivation and makes you lazy .
I suppose if this is what you want to do with your life , it 's fine , it just means less competition for me in the workplace.People are also still suing the cigarette companies for getting cancer , even though warning labels have been on the packages for &gt; 20 years .
Why would the government want to open the door for more lawsuits ? and what about health care ?
I hope that people that do smoke it end up having to pay more in premiums ( government or private ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Our anti-pot drug policies eliminate any possibility of salutary tax revenue from an industry that's worth billions even as a black market.
In addition to that, we have to catch, try and incarcerate pot growers, sellers, and users at staggering expense (also billions, when all is said and done).
"People always lump in users with sellers that are "thrown in jail" and I just don't believe it.
I haven't heard of a person in the US going to Jail for just having a small amount of pot or smoking a joint.
Unless you are a dealer, the cops and the feds don't even bother.
"Pot is basically as harmless as alcohol, but since we force our educators and police to demonize it even while half of them use it themselves, we undercut the entire credibility of our anti-drug programs (which are important for helping kids avoid drugs that are actually dangerous).
So not only do we get no tax on billions, but we spend billions, and we contribute to actual drug problems (at what additional cost I hesitate to guess).
"As Harmless as alcohol?
Alcohol destroys your liver.
This is a scientific fact.
I honestly don't think we've done enough scientific studies on the long-term effects of pot.Just from my own personal experience, from the vast amount of friends that have used pot, it destroys your motivation and makes you lazy.
I suppose if this is what you want to do with your life, it's fine, it just means less competition for me in the workplace.People are also still suing the cigarette companies for getting cancer, even though warning labels have been on the packages for &gt; 20 years.
Why would the government want to open the door for more lawsuits?and what about health care?
I hope that people that do smoke it end up having to pay more in premiums (government or private).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780166</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779822</id>
	<title>test</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263575940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>test test</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>test test</tokentext>
<sentencetext>test test</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779758</id>
	<title>Why So Flamebait, Chums?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263575640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What's with all the anti-administration flamebait recently?  Yesterday, submitted as fact, were a set very dubious allegations that turned out to be false, surprising almost no-one.  Today, we're supposed to get upset because an American company that also hires workers in India gets a contract to hire workers in America, and reprise the anger we felt when fratards overwhelmed a lackluster public response to an Obama administration suggestion box with their gormless suggestion to 'save the economy' by legalizing a plant that grows like a weed.  What gives?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What 's with all the anti-administration flamebait recently ?
Yesterday , submitted as fact , were a set very dubious allegations that turned out to be false , surprising almost no-one .
Today , we 're supposed to get upset because an American company that also hires workers in India gets a contract to hire workers in America , and reprise the anger we felt when fratards overwhelmed a lackluster public response to an Obama administration suggestion box with their gormless suggestion to 'save the economy ' by legalizing a plant that grows like a weed .
What gives ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What's with all the anti-administration flamebait recently?
Yesterday, submitted as fact, were a set very dubious allegations that turned out to be false, surprising almost no-one.
Today, we're supposed to get upset because an American company that also hires workers in India gets a contract to hire workers in America, and reprise the anger we felt when fratards overwhelmed a lackluster public response to an Obama administration suggestion box with their gormless suggestion to 'save the economy' by legalizing a plant that grows like a weed.
What gives?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779602</id>
	<title>It's Worse Than You think!</title>
	<author>eldavojohn</author>
	<datestamp>1263574740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>

Do you know that the servers the government purchased to run these have memor that's<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... <i>made in Taiwan!</i>  Where the <a href="http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2009/08/24/2003451881" title="taipeitimes.com" rel="nofollow">average annual income for a factory worker</a> [taipeitimes.com] is a paltry US$1,150.00 annually!  And don't even get me started on where the plastic casings came for the keyboards, servers and mice that comprise these servers!  <br> <br>

I have this weird feeling that had they gone with American services for building these websites at 10x the cost of using IdeaScale, the Slashdot summary would have read about the absurdly high spending that the Department of Labor is wasting our tax dollars on and would have something about a cursory glance finding tons of companies willing to fullfill the work order for 1/10 what they spent.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  They picked the route that most CEOs today are picking and they saved us from more tax dollar expenditures.  Pick your poison.  <br> <br>

And don't tell anybody but I think Obama's coffee mugs are<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... <b>MADE IN CHINA!</b>  Just like yours and mine!  The horror!<p><div class="quote"><p>BTW, an earlier White House-sponsored, IdeaScale-powered Open Government Brainstorm identified legalizing marijuana as one of the best ways to 'strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness.</p></div><p>So because IdeaScale built an application to spec for the White House (who shouldn't have paid for it if it didn't meet requirements) and a bunch of pothead hippies turned up in full force to get their message out loud and clear on it, it's IdeaScale's fault?  I think you'd be better off blaming the concept of democracy or the buzzword 'crowd-sourcing' as this is just kind of evidence of a technology-based bias of the voices.  <br> <br>

You criticize the White House for doing something we all do then you blame the wonderful effects of democracy on a web application?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do you know that the servers the government purchased to run these have memor that 's ... made in Taiwan !
Where the average annual income for a factory worker [ taipeitimes.com ] is a paltry US $ 1,150.00 annually !
And do n't even get me started on where the plastic casings came for the keyboards , servers and mice that comprise these servers !
I have this weird feeling that had they gone with American services for building these websites at 10x the cost of using IdeaScale , the Slashdot summary would have read about the absurdly high spending that the Department of Labor is wasting our tax dollars on and would have something about a cursory glance finding tons of companies willing to fullfill the work order for 1/10 what they spent .
Damned if you do , damned if you do n't .
They picked the route that most CEOs today are picking and they saved us from more tax dollar expenditures .
Pick your poison .
And do n't tell anybody but I think Obama 's coffee mugs are ... MADE IN CHINA !
Just like yours and mine !
The horror ! BTW , an earlier White House-sponsored , IdeaScale-powered Open Government Brainstorm identified legalizing marijuana as one of the best ways to 'strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness.So because IdeaScale built an application to spec for the White House ( who should n't have paid for it if it did n't meet requirements ) and a bunch of pothead hippies turned up in full force to get their message out loud and clear on it , it 's IdeaScale 's fault ?
I think you 'd be better off blaming the concept of democracy or the buzzword 'crowd-sourcing ' as this is just kind of evidence of a technology-based bias of the voices .
You criticize the White House for doing something we all do then you blame the wonderful effects of democracy on a web application ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>

Do you know that the servers the government purchased to run these have memor that's ... made in Taiwan!
Where the average annual income for a factory worker [taipeitimes.com] is a paltry US$1,150.00 annually!
And don't even get me started on where the plastic casings came for the keyboards, servers and mice that comprise these servers!
I have this weird feeling that had they gone with American services for building these websites at 10x the cost of using IdeaScale, the Slashdot summary would have read about the absurdly high spending that the Department of Labor is wasting our tax dollars on and would have something about a cursory glance finding tons of companies willing to fullfill the work order for 1/10 what they spent.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
They picked the route that most CEOs today are picking and they saved us from more tax dollar expenditures.
Pick your poison.
And don't tell anybody but I think Obama's coffee mugs are ... MADE IN CHINA!
Just like yours and mine!
The horror!BTW, an earlier White House-sponsored, IdeaScale-powered Open Government Brainstorm identified legalizing marijuana as one of the best ways to 'strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness.So because IdeaScale built an application to spec for the White House (who shouldn't have paid for it if it didn't meet requirements) and a bunch of pothead hippies turned up in full force to get their message out loud and clear on it, it's IdeaScale's fault?
I think you'd be better off blaming the concept of democracy or the buzzword 'crowd-sourcing' as this is just kind of evidence of a technology-based bias of the voices.
You criticize the White House for doing something we all do then you blame the wonderful effects of democracy on a web application?
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780352</id>
	<title>Re:When it comes to programming</title>
	<author>Tobor the Eighth Man</author>
	<datestamp>1263578400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're acting like India is Somalia, rather than a G-20 nation with a hugely diverse sector of industries, universities, and research. Indian companies can charge (and pay) less because the cost of living is considerably less than in the US, not because they're hiring the little street kids from Slumdog Millionaire to code your CMS platform. "Every once in a while a hard-working family can afford an education?" Yeah, right, and it's amazing that they have such diverse cuisine given that they have to hunt for food with nothing but rocks and sticks!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're acting like India is Somalia , rather than a G-20 nation with a hugely diverse sector of industries , universities , and research .
Indian companies can charge ( and pay ) less because the cost of living is considerably less than in the US , not because they 're hiring the little street kids from Slumdog Millionaire to code your CMS platform .
" Every once in a while a hard-working family can afford an education ?
" Yeah , right , and it 's amazing that they have such diverse cuisine given that they have to hunt for food with nothing but rocks and sticks !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're acting like India is Somalia, rather than a G-20 nation with a hugely diverse sector of industries, universities, and research.
Indian companies can charge (and pay) less because the cost of living is considerably less than in the US, not because they're hiring the little street kids from Slumdog Millionaire to code your CMS platform.
"Every once in a while a hard-working family can afford an education?
" Yeah, right, and it's amazing that they have such diverse cuisine given that they have to hunt for food with nothing but rocks and sticks!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780740</id>
	<title>Re:Call or e-mail your Congress-Person</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263579780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not really.  I've seen many Federal IT Contracts done by the H1-B workers</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not really .
I 've seen many Federal IT Contracts done by the H1-B workers</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not really.
I've seen many Federal IT Contracts done by the H1-B workers</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780094</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781360</id>
	<title>Re:Shame...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263582300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>"Does the world not benefit from cheaper access to code? Does the basic truth that competition makes things better not apply to the world of programming?"</i></p><p>It depends on the cost.<br>Case in point:</p><p>WAL-MART: The High Cost of Low Price<br><a href="http://www.walmartmovie.com/" title="walmartmovie.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.walmartmovie.com/</a> [walmartmovie.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Does the world not benefit from cheaper access to code ?
Does the basic truth that competition makes things better not apply to the world of programming ?
" It depends on the cost.Case in point : WAL-MART : The High Cost of Low Pricehttp : //www.walmartmovie.com/ [ walmartmovie.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Does the world not benefit from cheaper access to code?
Does the basic truth that competition makes things better not apply to the world of programming?
"It depends on the cost.Case in point:WAL-MART: The High Cost of Low Pricehttp://www.walmartmovie.com/ [walmartmovie.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780090</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780166</id>
	<title>The Inconvenient Truth</title>
	<author>Concern</author>
	<datestamp>1263577560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hey, I'm in the US, and it's obviously true. It's just <i>inconveniently</i> true.</p><p>Our anti-pot drug policies eliminate any possibility of salutary tax revenue from an industry that's worth billions even as a black market. In addition to that, we have to catch, try and incarcerate pot growers, sellers, and users at staggering expense (also billions, when all is said and done).</p><p>Pot is basically as harmless as alcohol, but since we force our educators and police to demonize it even while half of them use it themselves, we undercut the entire credibility of our anti-drug programs (which are important for helping kids avoid drugs that are actually dangerous). So not only do we get no tax on billions, but we spend billions, <i>and</i> we contribute to actual drug problems (at what additional cost I hesitate to guess).</p><p>We could still try the tired argument that pot really is dangerous. We have to hope not, since a huge portion of the population admits to using it in studies. The Netherlands notwithstanding, three of our last three presidents have admitted to using various illegal drugs and got elected anyway.</p><p>The open government brainstorming application worked perfectly. It distilled a set of great ideas directly from citizen activists with less lobbying, filtering and political BS.</p><p>Legalizing pot would be a great idea. It would cut waste, generate revenue, empty prisons, improve the health and safety of the nation's youth. It's too bad Obama absolutely cannot and will not do it. It would be political suicide. And that gets us into analyzing the particular hues that the fascinating kaleidoscope of American politics puts over reality...</p><p>Either way, you can't blame the app, or the app's developer for doing an unusually good job, just because the truth is embarrassing for the "national psyche."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey , I 'm in the US , and it 's obviously true .
It 's just inconveniently true.Our anti-pot drug policies eliminate any possibility of salutary tax revenue from an industry that 's worth billions even as a black market .
In addition to that , we have to catch , try and incarcerate pot growers , sellers , and users at staggering expense ( also billions , when all is said and done ) .Pot is basically as harmless as alcohol , but since we force our educators and police to demonize it even while half of them use it themselves , we undercut the entire credibility of our anti-drug programs ( which are important for helping kids avoid drugs that are actually dangerous ) .
So not only do we get no tax on billions , but we spend billions , and we contribute to actual drug problems ( at what additional cost I hesitate to guess ) .We could still try the tired argument that pot really is dangerous .
We have to hope not , since a huge portion of the population admits to using it in studies .
The Netherlands notwithstanding , three of our last three presidents have admitted to using various illegal drugs and got elected anyway.The open government brainstorming application worked perfectly .
It distilled a set of great ideas directly from citizen activists with less lobbying , filtering and political BS.Legalizing pot would be a great idea .
It would cut waste , generate revenue , empty prisons , improve the health and safety of the nation 's youth .
It 's too bad Obama absolutely can not and will not do it .
It would be political suicide .
And that gets us into analyzing the particular hues that the fascinating kaleidoscope of American politics puts over reality...Either way , you ca n't blame the app , or the app 's developer for doing an unusually good job , just because the truth is embarrassing for the " national psyche .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hey, I'm in the US, and it's obviously true.
It's just inconveniently true.Our anti-pot drug policies eliminate any possibility of salutary tax revenue from an industry that's worth billions even as a black market.
In addition to that, we have to catch, try and incarcerate pot growers, sellers, and users at staggering expense (also billions, when all is said and done).Pot is basically as harmless as alcohol, but since we force our educators and police to demonize it even while half of them use it themselves, we undercut the entire credibility of our anti-drug programs (which are important for helping kids avoid drugs that are actually dangerous).
So not only do we get no tax on billions, but we spend billions, and we contribute to actual drug problems (at what additional cost I hesitate to guess).We could still try the tired argument that pot really is dangerous.
We have to hope not, since a huge portion of the population admits to using it in studies.
The Netherlands notwithstanding, three of our last three presidents have admitted to using various illegal drugs and got elected anyway.The open government brainstorming application worked perfectly.
It distilled a set of great ideas directly from citizen activists with less lobbying, filtering and political BS.Legalizing pot would be a great idea.
It would cut waste, generate revenue, empty prisons, improve the health and safety of the nation's youth.
It's too bad Obama absolutely cannot and will not do it.
It would be political suicide.
And that gets us into analyzing the particular hues that the fascinating kaleidoscope of American politics puts over reality...Either way, you can't blame the app, or the app's developer for doing an unusually good job, just because the truth is embarrassing for the "national psyche.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30782586</id>
	<title>Re:Fine, just make it fair</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263587400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You also have the "right" to mow your own fucking lawn.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You also have the " right " to mow your own fucking lawn .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You also have the "right" to mow your own fucking lawn.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780164</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779746</id>
	<title>Fixed that for myself</title>
	<author>Taedirk</author>
	<datestamp>1263575520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>US Department of Labor</p></div><p>For some reason, I read this as Department of DAY Labor..</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>US Department of LaborFor some reason , I read this as Department of DAY Labor. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>US Department of LaborFor some reason, I read this as Department of DAY Labor..
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779942</id>
	<title>Imagine how much that is in Canadian dollars!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263576540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You might as well send those jobs to Canada, because 4400 U.S. dollars = 4 515.71984 Canadian dollars and... oh wait.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You might as well send those jobs to Canada , because 4400 U.S. dollars = 4 515.71984 Canadian dollars and... oh wait .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You might as well send those jobs to Canada, because 4400 U.S. dollars = 4 515.71984 Canadian dollars and... oh wait.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780090</id>
	<title>Re:Shame...</title>
	<author>RobVB</author>
	<datestamp>1263577200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is it really a shame? Does the world not benefit from cheaper access to code? Does the basic truth that competition makes things better not apply to the world of programming?</p><p>Sure it's a shame for many American programmers, which are overrepresented here on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/., but on a global scale I think this is a good evolution.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is it really a shame ?
Does the world not benefit from cheaper access to code ?
Does the basic truth that competition makes things better not apply to the world of programming ? Sure it 's a shame for many American programmers , which are overrepresented here on /. , but on a global scale I think this is a good evolution .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is it really a shame?
Does the world not benefit from cheaper access to code?
Does the basic truth that competition makes things better not apply to the world of programming?Sure it's a shame for many American programmers, which are overrepresented here on /., but on a global scale I think this is a good evolution.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30799784</id>
	<title>Re:The Inconvenient Truth</title>
	<author>badkarmadayaccount</author>
	<datestamp>1263755940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Absolutely not. No. And WTH? Mercury?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Absolutely not .
No. And WTH ?
Mercury ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Absolutely not.
No. And WTH?
Mercury?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781236</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30783168</id>
	<title>Opportunity!</title>
	<author>mano.m</author>
	<datestamp>1263546960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Rs. 200,000 to 300,000 ($44,000 to $6,600 US)</p></div><p>That is one volatile currency.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Rs .
200,000 to 300,000 ( $ 44,000 to $ 6,600 US ) That is one volatile currency .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Rs.
200,000 to 300,000 ($44,000 to $6,600 US)That is one volatile currency.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780164</id>
	<title>Fine, just make it fair</title>
	<author>iamacat</author>
	<datestamp>1263577560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If I have to complete with $5K/year Indian programmers, I have a right to lower my living costs by outsourcing my yard maintenance to an $3/hour undocumented mexican gardener. Or by outsourcing my software purchases to $0/hour piratebay. I know there are good arguments about both of these pursuits, but then there are similar ones about skirting US labor laws by outsourcing. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If I have to complete with $ 5K/year Indian programmers , I have a right to lower my living costs by outsourcing my yard maintenance to an $ 3/hour undocumented mexican gardener .
Or by outsourcing my software purchases to $ 0/hour piratebay .
I know there are good arguments about both of these pursuits , but then there are similar ones about skirting US labor laws by outsourcing .
What 's good for the goose is good for the gander .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I have to complete with $5K/year Indian programmers, I have a right to lower my living costs by outsourcing my yard maintenance to an $3/hour undocumented mexican gardener.
Or by outsourcing my software purchases to $0/hour piratebay.
I know there are good arguments about both of these pursuits, but then there are similar ones about skirting US labor laws by outsourcing.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781232</id>
	<title>Re:4000/year ? youll only get college kids</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263581760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Depends on the location. In Bangalore that would be the salary for someone with no experience and a graduate degree of some sorts (no computer experience). They usually end up in tech support lines and work their way up into mgmt. or sometime move into S/W test or devp. </p><p>But if you were to go to a Tier-2  city like Nashik, it is possible to get an average coder at that salary. </p><p>My data may be a couple of years old but I worked in an IT job for 5 years in India, started at about $7,000/year (including all benefits) . I'd get about $400 a month as cash and that was more than enough to live a good life (equivalent to making about $3000/mo cash in US). Also on average your salary doubles in 3-5 years. </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Depends on the location .
In Bangalore that would be the salary for someone with no experience and a graduate degree of some sorts ( no computer experience ) .
They usually end up in tech support lines and work their way up into mgmt .
or sometime move into S/W test or devp .
But if you were to go to a Tier-2 city like Nashik , it is possible to get an average coder at that salary .
My data may be a couple of years old but I worked in an IT job for 5 years in India , started at about $ 7,000/year ( including all benefits ) .
I 'd get about $ 400 a month as cash and that was more than enough to live a good life ( equivalent to making about $ 3000/mo cash in US ) .
Also on average your salary doubles in 3-5 years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Depends on the location.
In Bangalore that would be the salary for someone with no experience and a graduate degree of some sorts (no computer experience).
They usually end up in tech support lines and work their way up into mgmt.
or sometime move into S/W test or devp.
But if you were to go to a Tier-2  city like Nashik, it is possible to get an average coder at that salary.
My data may be a couple of years old but I worked in an IT job for 5 years in India, started at about $7,000/year (including all benefits) .
I'd get about $400 a month as cash and that was more than enough to live a good life (equivalent to making about $3000/mo cash in US).
Also on average your salary doubles in 3-5 years. </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780012</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780318</id>
	<title>Am I reading this right?</title>
	<author>dwiget001</author>
	<datestamp>1263578280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The U.S. Government is essentially paying non-U.S. citizens to maintain a web-site for Americans seeking employment?</p><p>Sorry, but my Irony Meter (TM) just pegged and is now completely non-functional.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The U.S. Government is essentially paying non-U.S. citizens to maintain a web-site for Americans seeking employment ? Sorry , but my Irony Meter ( TM ) just pegged and is now completely non-functional .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The U.S. Government is essentially paying non-U.S. citizens to maintain a web-site for Americans seeking employment?Sorry, but my Irony Meter (TM) just pegged and is now completely non-functional.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30803606</id>
	<title>Re:Call or e-mail your Congress-Person</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263741180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That ad says nothing about the Dept. of Labor project. The company is based in Seattle, they have a lot more client than just the US Government.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That ad says nothing about the Dept .
of Labor project .
The company is based in Seattle , they have a lot more client than just the US Government .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That ad says nothing about the Dept.
of Labor project.
The company is based in Seattle, they have a lot more client than just the US Government.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780094</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779850</id>
	<title>full-time? really?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263576120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have friends in India. I discussed IT salary differences with them. I said "this web page says you can get software engineers for $5k/year in India. Is that for real?"</p><p>I was told that <b>that's bullshit</b> and that Indian professionals actually earn in excess of $20,000 per year. $5k/year would only buy interns with no education and no experience, from what my friends in Bangalore tell me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have friends in India .
I discussed IT salary differences with them .
I said " this web page says you can get software engineers for $ 5k/year in India .
Is that for real ?
" I was told that that 's bullshit and that Indian professionals actually earn in excess of $ 20,000 per year .
$ 5k/year would only buy interns with no education and no experience , from what my friends in Bangalore tell me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have friends in India.
I discussed IT salary differences with them.
I said "this web page says you can get software engineers for $5k/year in India.
Is that for real?
"I was told that that's bullshit and that Indian professionals actually earn in excess of $20,000 per year.
$5k/year would only buy interns with no education and no experience, from what my friends in Bangalore tell me.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780908</id>
	<title>Re:Giant Deficits...</title>
	<author>PlanetX 00</author>
	<datestamp>1263580500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The US has these great trade deficits too.  This is one of the roots of the problem.  The U.S. has all of these "Trade Partners" who don't buy anything from us. These partners need to either buy stuff/services from the US or re-balance the currencies, otherwise the people in the US are just mortgaging the increase of the standard-of-living of these other countries.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The US has these great trade deficits too .
This is one of the roots of the problem .
The U.S. has all of these " Trade Partners " who do n't buy anything from us .
These partners need to either buy stuff/services from the US or re-balance the currencies , otherwise the people in the US are just mortgaging the increase of the standard-of-living of these other countries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The US has these great trade deficits too.
This is one of the roots of the problem.
The U.S. has all of these "Trade Partners" who don't buy anything from us.
These partners need to either buy stuff/services from the US or re-balance the currencies, otherwise the people in the US are just mortgaging the increase of the standard-of-living of these other countries.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780484</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30791626</id>
	<title>Hilarious</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263667860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The department set up to get Americans working again is actually getting people laid off.  No wonder the US is imploding.<br>.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The department set up to get Americans working again is actually getting people laid off .
No wonder the US is imploding. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The department set up to get Americans working again is actually getting people laid off.
No wonder the US is imploding..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779964</id>
	<title>Comparsion</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263576660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just for comparsion. I work as programmer for small Slovak hospital/database software vendor and after 5 years, my income is 13'000 $/year.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just for comparsion .
I work as programmer for small Slovak hospital/database software vendor and after 5 years , my income is 13'000 $ /year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just for comparsion.
I work as programmer for small Slovak hospital/database software vendor and after 5 years, my income is 13'000 $/year.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30791560</id>
	<title>Re:full-time? really?</title>
	<author>pkphilip</author>
	<datestamp>1263667560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>$20,000/- a year amounts to about Rs.10,00,000/year. That is NOT what a typical programmer will earn in India unless they have more than 5 years of experience. The Rs.200,000 to Rs.300,000 a closer to the truth. I am guessing that your friends in India are all pretty well off?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 20,000/- a year amounts to about Rs.10,00,000/year .
That is NOT what a typical programmer will earn in India unless they have more than 5 years of experience .
The Rs.200,000 to Rs.300,000 a closer to the truth .
I am guessing that your friends in India are all pretty well off ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$20,000/- a year amounts to about Rs.10,00,000/year.
That is NOT what a typical programmer will earn in India unless they have more than 5 years of experience.
The Rs.200,000 to Rs.300,000 a closer to the truth.
I am guessing that your friends in India are all pretty well off?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781002</id>
	<title>Re:It's Worse Than You think!</title>
	<author>TapeCutter</author>
	<datestamp>1263580920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>"Sorry to dissapoint you, but cannabis is not legal in the Netherlands."</i>
<br> <br>
Technically it's not legal but in practice it is, this odd status has more to do with loop holes in international treaties than anything else. When I was over there recently I had no trouble buying high quality hash joints at any one of a dozen coffee shops within walking distance of Rembrantplein.
<br> <br>
<i>"people that trade cannabis in large quantaties"</i>
<br> <br>
I don't know what qualifies as "large quantities" but the brisk bussiness at the larger shops/bars indicates they have one hell of a stash somewhere. And at five euros per joint I imagine the profits, jobs and tax revenue it creates are not insignificant.
<br> <br>
<i>"You can read more on wikipedia"</i>
<br> <br>
Much more fun to actually go there and experience a society that refuses to declare war on itself.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Sorry to dissapoint you , but cannabis is not legal in the Netherlands .
" Technically it 's not legal but in practice it is , this odd status has more to do with loop holes in international treaties than anything else .
When I was over there recently I had no trouble buying high quality hash joints at any one of a dozen coffee shops within walking distance of Rembrantplein .
" people that trade cannabis in large quantaties " I do n't know what qualifies as " large quantities " but the brisk bussiness at the larger shops/bars indicates they have one hell of a stash somewhere .
And at five euros per joint I imagine the profits , jobs and tax revenue it creates are not insignificant .
" You can read more on wikipedia " Much more fun to actually go there and experience a society that refuses to declare war on itself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Sorry to dissapoint you, but cannabis is not legal in the Netherlands.
"
 
Technically it's not legal but in practice it is, this odd status has more to do with loop holes in international treaties than anything else.
When I was over there recently I had no trouble buying high quality hash joints at any one of a dozen coffee shops within walking distance of Rembrantplein.
"people that trade cannabis in large quantaties"
 
I don't know what qualifies as "large quantities" but the brisk bussiness at the larger shops/bars indicates they have one hell of a stash somewhere.
And at five euros per joint I imagine the profits, jobs and tax revenue it creates are not insignificant.
"You can read more on wikipedia"
 
Much more fun to actually go there and experience a society that refuses to declare war on itself.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781632</id>
	<title>Fixed it.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263583260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I would urge US slashdotters to call or e-mail your Congress-Critter. If this is really true, it is a violation of US Federal Contracting standards. Generally, Federal IT contracts specify all workers on the contract to be either US Citizens or Permanent Residents.</p></div><p>Fixed that for you.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would urge US slashdotters to call or e-mail your Congress-Critter .
If this is really true , it is a violation of US Federal Contracting standards .
Generally , Federal IT contracts specify all workers on the contract to be either US Citizens or Permanent Residents.Fixed that for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would urge US slashdotters to call or e-mail your Congress-Critter.
If this is really true, it is a violation of US Federal Contracting standards.
Generally, Federal IT contracts specify all workers on the contract to be either US Citizens or Permanent Residents.Fixed that for you.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780094</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30783054</id>
	<title>The Raw Truth</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263546300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Spot on, and so is the other AC.  I feel you have an excellent shot at the exceedingly rare "(Score:5, Flamebait)".</p><p>- T</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Spot on , and so is the other AC .
I feel you have an excellent shot at the exceedingly rare " ( Score : 5 , Flamebait ) " .- T</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Spot on, and so is the other AC.
I feel you have an excellent shot at the exceedingly rare "(Score:5, Flamebait)".- T</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781128</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30785462</id>
	<title>Re:Why So Flamebait, Chums?</title>
	<author>Megane</author>
	<datestamp>1263557580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You must be new around here. We've been having anti-administration flamebait for at least eight years so far.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You must be new around here .
We 've been having anti-administration flamebait for at least eight years so far .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You must be new around here.
We've been having anti-administration flamebait for at least eight years so far.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780732</id>
	<title>Re:full-time? really?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263579780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>$20,000 in India only buys you slightly older developers with undergraduate degrees, five years experience and <b>about the same quality of work.</b>  One enormous (really enormous, like freight train enormous...) American heartland transportation company found that every hour of time worked by an Indian subcontractor required at least 20 minutes of stateside integration and clean-up of the code, as well as correction of wrong logic in the unit tests.  With 200 foreign contractors working 8 hours a day, the company needed 66 full-time local IT employees just to keep up with integration.</p><p>When asked by an employee (a former foreign contractor herself who had naturalized) if he was concerned about the quality of the code coming from the contractors in <i>Hyperbad</i>, the CTO of the company gave a short and surprising answer (really short, like the length of a railroad spike, short).  He said, "I don't care about the quality of the code.  Do you know how much money we're saving?"</p><p>It sounds to me like this company is in for a long ride (really long, like the length of a railroad track, long).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 20,000 in India only buys you slightly older developers with undergraduate degrees , five years experience and about the same quality of work .
One enormous ( really enormous , like freight train enormous... ) American heartland transportation company found that every hour of time worked by an Indian subcontractor required at least 20 minutes of stateside integration and clean-up of the code , as well as correction of wrong logic in the unit tests .
With 200 foreign contractors working 8 hours a day , the company needed 66 full-time local IT employees just to keep up with integration.When asked by an employee ( a former foreign contractor herself who had naturalized ) if he was concerned about the quality of the code coming from the contractors in Hyperbad , the CTO of the company gave a short and surprising answer ( really short , like the length of a railroad spike , short ) .
He said , " I do n't care about the quality of the code .
Do you know how much money we 're saving ?
" It sounds to me like this company is in for a long ride ( really long , like the length of a railroad track , long ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$20,000 in India only buys you slightly older developers with undergraduate degrees, five years experience and about the same quality of work.
One enormous (really enormous, like freight train enormous...) American heartland transportation company found that every hour of time worked by an Indian subcontractor required at least 20 minutes of stateside integration and clean-up of the code, as well as correction of wrong logic in the unit tests.
With 200 foreign contractors working 8 hours a day, the company needed 66 full-time local IT employees just to keep up with integration.When asked by an employee (a former foreign contractor herself who had naturalized) if he was concerned about the quality of the code coming from the contractors in Hyperbad, the CTO of the company gave a short and surprising answer (really short, like the length of a railroad spike, short).
He said, "I don't care about the quality of the code.
Do you know how much money we're saving?
"It sounds to me like this company is in for a long ride (really long, like the length of a railroad track, long).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780802</id>
	<title>Re:When it comes to programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263580080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Quite dead on, I wonder if PHBs will ever realize that.</p><p>Face it, programming is nothing you can simply teach. Hell, it's been tried with some of our unemployed people here. They got stuffed into programming classes and were supposed to become VB programmers. Nothing fancy, nothing sophisticated, Visual Basic. Basically, they were useless. We tried to hire some of those fast breeder cram-into-cranium programmers. I use the term loosely. They could not translate a problem into code. What they would have needed was you to dissect the problem into identifyable pieces that matched the patterns they learned. Sorry, but programming doesn't work that way.</p><p>Now, India has a history of having kickass mathematicians. And I don't doubt that there are incredibly good programmers amongst them. But you can't simply pick someone up and make him a programmer. I'm still self absorbed enough to even claim it takes a special kind of person to be a good programmer. And yes, they exist too in India, but like you said, they're already packing and going. What's left is the same kind of programmer we get pumped out here from adult training programs. They might even know the syntax, but they can't translate problem into code. It's like learning an instrument and knowing all the notes but not knowing how to play.</p></div><p>Perfectly summarized, as an Indian I can tell you that what you are saying is mostly true, however not every good programmer wants to migrate to US and then there are visa issues too. These programmers are paid pretty handsomely upwards of $20-40k per annum (which in India is quite a lot) and then they travel frequently to US for business trips. On an average a corporation ends up spending nearly $40-50k per year on them. However this set of programmers are hired not to lower costs but to add value.</p><p>Then there are those who are just average and probably went to some shit university or have done some programming course, this set of people, which is nearly 80-90\% of total IT workforce in India is paid somewhere between $5- 20 k based on their experience.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Quite dead on , I wonder if PHBs will ever realize that.Face it , programming is nothing you can simply teach .
Hell , it 's been tried with some of our unemployed people here .
They got stuffed into programming classes and were supposed to become VB programmers .
Nothing fancy , nothing sophisticated , Visual Basic .
Basically , they were useless .
We tried to hire some of those fast breeder cram-into-cranium programmers .
I use the term loosely .
They could not translate a problem into code .
What they would have needed was you to dissect the problem into identifyable pieces that matched the patterns they learned .
Sorry , but programming does n't work that way.Now , India has a history of having kickass mathematicians .
And I do n't doubt that there are incredibly good programmers amongst them .
But you ca n't simply pick someone up and make him a programmer .
I 'm still self absorbed enough to even claim it takes a special kind of person to be a good programmer .
And yes , they exist too in India , but like you said , they 're already packing and going .
What 's left is the same kind of programmer we get pumped out here from adult training programs .
They might even know the syntax , but they ca n't translate problem into code .
It 's like learning an instrument and knowing all the notes but not knowing how to play.Perfectly summarized , as an Indian I can tell you that what you are saying is mostly true , however not every good programmer wants to migrate to US and then there are visa issues too .
These programmers are paid pretty handsomely upwards of $ 20-40k per annum ( which in India is quite a lot ) and then they travel frequently to US for business trips .
On an average a corporation ends up spending nearly $ 40-50k per year on them .
However this set of programmers are hired not to lower costs but to add value.Then there are those who are just average and probably went to some shit university or have done some programming course , this set of people , which is nearly 80-90 \ % of total IT workforce in India is paid somewhere between $ 5- 20 k based on their experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Quite dead on, I wonder if PHBs will ever realize that.Face it, programming is nothing you can simply teach.
Hell, it's been tried with some of our unemployed people here.
They got stuffed into programming classes and were supposed to become VB programmers.
Nothing fancy, nothing sophisticated, Visual Basic.
Basically, they were useless.
We tried to hire some of those fast breeder cram-into-cranium programmers.
I use the term loosely.
They could not translate a problem into code.
What they would have needed was you to dissect the problem into identifyable pieces that matched the patterns they learned.
Sorry, but programming doesn't work that way.Now, India has a history of having kickass mathematicians.
And I don't doubt that there are incredibly good programmers amongst them.
But you can't simply pick someone up and make him a programmer.
I'm still self absorbed enough to even claim it takes a special kind of person to be a good programmer.
And yes, they exist too in India, but like you said, they're already packing and going.
What's left is the same kind of programmer we get pumped out here from adult training programs.
They might even know the syntax, but they can't translate problem into code.
It's like learning an instrument and knowing all the notes but not knowing how to play.Perfectly summarized, as an Indian I can tell you that what you are saying is mostly true, however not every good programmer wants to migrate to US and then there are visa issues too.
These programmers are paid pretty handsomely upwards of $20-40k per annum (which in India is quite a lot) and then they travel frequently to US for business trips.
On an average a corporation ends up spending nearly $40-50k per year on them.
However this set of programmers are hired not to lower costs but to add value.Then there are those who are just average and probably went to some shit university or have done some programming course, this set of people, which is nearly 80-90\% of total IT workforce in India is paid somewhere between $5- 20 k based on their experience.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780460</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780504</id>
	<title>Re:Shame...</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1263578940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No! That "basic truth" is exactly what got us into the economy shit we're in right now!</p><p>You have to produce where you want to sell. If you don't, people who are supposed to buy cannot buy due to a lack of money. <i>That</i> is the basic truth of economy. It only works as long as consumers have enough money to buy the goods produced.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No !
That " basic truth " is exactly what got us into the economy shit we 're in right now ! You have to produce where you want to sell .
If you do n't , people who are supposed to buy can not buy due to a lack of money .
That is the basic truth of economy .
It only works as long as consumers have enough money to buy the goods produced .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No!
That "basic truth" is exactly what got us into the economy shit we're in right now!You have to produce where you want to sell.
If you don't, people who are supposed to buy cannot buy due to a lack of money.
That is the basic truth of economy.
It only works as long as consumers have enough money to buy the goods produced.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780090</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780938</id>
	<title>Re:When it comes to programming</title>
	<author>thePowerOfGrayskull</author>
	<datestamp>1263580680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>At least when it comes to the work supplied by major vendors, this is pretty much incorrect or at least mostly so.  There are educational requirements. Your career track is decided when you are in the equivalent of US high school, if not earlier.  Your post-secondary education is focused on this as well. I don't know how the financing works, but I do know that in the major houses you don't get in the door without an education.
<p>
The problem here is not that they don't have training, but that the training can't teach people how to think in the way a programmer must think.  It can, on the other hand, teach them how to memorize a bunch of rules that they may not understand, and how to google for solutions (that they also may not understand, but will paste into place).
</p><p>
From what I have seen and learned talking with Indian coworkers here and offshore, IS-related work is one of THE big ways out of poverty or sub-standard living conditions.  This means a lot of people who are not fundamentally suitable for this kind of work are diving headfirst into it.  (We are seeing the same thing to a much lesser extent in the US, from the dot.com boom. In India, *need* drives you to this path.  In US, the desire to get rich quick drove you there.  )    Because they had the book skills, they were able to get through school -- but without the understanding of what you're doing, book skills don't help.
</p><p>
Management on-shore  is not helping either, because they're buying into the line that vendors are feeding them: programmers are just cogs, you can give them detailed specs and any programmer will turn out the same code.  The net result is a situation like we have: our "detailed specs" are in some cases actually code that they can copy and paste into cpp files.  Anything less, and it gets screwed up -- because so many people in the industry there do not have the critical thinking ability that programmers need.
</p><p>
The rate of people who have a clue most likely occurs the same there as anywhere in the world; but the nature of the environment there means that they are rare gems in a sea of over-eager, under-qualified IS workers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At least when it comes to the work supplied by major vendors , this is pretty much incorrect or at least mostly so .
There are educational requirements .
Your career track is decided when you are in the equivalent of US high school , if not earlier .
Your post-secondary education is focused on this as well .
I do n't know how the financing works , but I do know that in the major houses you do n't get in the door without an education .
The problem here is not that they do n't have training , but that the training ca n't teach people how to think in the way a programmer must think .
It can , on the other hand , teach them how to memorize a bunch of rules that they may not understand , and how to google for solutions ( that they also may not understand , but will paste into place ) .
From what I have seen and learned talking with Indian coworkers here and offshore , IS-related work is one of THE big ways out of poverty or sub-standard living conditions .
This means a lot of people who are not fundamentally suitable for this kind of work are diving headfirst into it .
( We are seeing the same thing to a much lesser extent in the US , from the dot.com boom .
In India , * need * drives you to this path .
In US , the desire to get rich quick drove you there .
) Because they had the book skills , they were able to get through school -- but without the understanding of what you 're doing , book skills do n't help .
Management on-shore is not helping either , because they 're buying into the line that vendors are feeding them : programmers are just cogs , you can give them detailed specs and any programmer will turn out the same code .
The net result is a situation like we have : our " detailed specs " are in some cases actually code that they can copy and paste into cpp files .
Anything less , and it gets screwed up -- because so many people in the industry there do not have the critical thinking ability that programmers need .
The rate of people who have a clue most likely occurs the same there as anywhere in the world ; but the nature of the environment there means that they are rare gems in a sea of over-eager , under-qualified IS workers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At least when it comes to the work supplied by major vendors, this is pretty much incorrect or at least mostly so.
There are educational requirements.
Your career track is decided when you are in the equivalent of US high school, if not earlier.
Your post-secondary education is focused on this as well.
I don't know how the financing works, but I do know that in the major houses you don't get in the door without an education.
The problem here is not that they don't have training, but that the training can't teach people how to think in the way a programmer must think.
It can, on the other hand, teach them how to memorize a bunch of rules that they may not understand, and how to google for solutions (that they also may not understand, but will paste into place).
From what I have seen and learned talking with Indian coworkers here and offshore, IS-related work is one of THE big ways out of poverty or sub-standard living conditions.
This means a lot of people who are not fundamentally suitable for this kind of work are diving headfirst into it.
(We are seeing the same thing to a much lesser extent in the US, from the dot.com boom.
In India, *need* drives you to this path.
In US, the desire to get rich quick drove you there.
)    Because they had the book skills, they were able to get through school -- but without the understanding of what you're doing, book skills don't help.
Management on-shore  is not helping either, because they're buying into the line that vendors are feeding them: programmers are just cogs, you can give them detailed specs and any programmer will turn out the same code.
The net result is a situation like we have: our "detailed specs" are in some cases actually code that they can copy and paste into cpp files.
Anything less, and it gets screwed up -- because so many people in the industry there do not have the critical thinking ability that programmers need.
The rate of people who have a clue most likely occurs the same there as anywhere in the world; but the nature of the environment there means that they are rare gems in a sea of over-eager, under-qualified IS workers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781930</id>
	<title>Re:When it comes to programming</title>
	<author>Acer500</author>
	<datestamp>1263584460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You get what you pay for.</p><p>That's not to say there aren't educated programmers that come from developing countries. Every once in a while a hard working family will be able to afford an education, and once they have that education, they usually fly stateside to make more money. They know that with their education they can be making way more money than 4400 USD a year. So they go and tack an extra digit to that paycheck, keep half and the other half is more than enough to either fly the family to the States or support them in India.</p></div><p>Here in Uruguay, South America (a popular but small outsourcing country) we have an even higher \% of IT graduates per population than the US, (higher education is "free", as in, you don't have to indebt to hell - it's still not easy for a family to support an university student, but it's way easier than starting years into debt), so your "every once in a while" claim does not apply in this case. I don't know about India but I suspect the # of programmers is more than enough to hire some competent ones at far less than the US equivalent.
<br> <br>As someone with a degree, and making U$S 15000 (after taxes) a year, I know that I could be making WAY more money in a developed country (I know I would be taken at U$ 4000 / month by my mother's employers in Canada for instance), but you saying that everybody with a degree "usually" flies Stateside is a broad exaggeration... there aren't enough visas/green cards for even one tenth of graduates in my country. I've discarded the US as a place to emigrate to (though I'd like to).</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Basically what it boils down to, they're going to get some guy who can talk the talk but not walk the walk. He'll agree to $4400 a year for as long as he can hold the job since he was only make $1000 a year back at his old job. Because anyone who knows what they're doing knows they are worth more.</p></div><p>You wouldn't find anyone trained here willing to work for U$S 4400 a year... but you could for something like U$S 8000 a year, which is still way less than you'd pay for in the US. We have more than 5000 programmers doing exactly that (Tata, the Indian outsourcing company, has a big outsourcing center here in Uruguay). <br> <br>Heck, I personally would do it for U$ 20000 a year (a dollar goes a long way longer here than in the US, as long as you're not into cars or electronics) - so you could get what I consider equivalent work for much less money - in fact that is why trade works<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) There are other problems inherent to outsourcing, but don't think that the main one would be programming skills (hiring, management, communications,etc...).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You get what you pay for.That 's not to say there are n't educated programmers that come from developing countries .
Every once in a while a hard working family will be able to afford an education , and once they have that education , they usually fly stateside to make more money .
They know that with their education they can be making way more money than 4400 USD a year .
So they go and tack an extra digit to that paycheck , keep half and the other half is more than enough to either fly the family to the States or support them in India.Here in Uruguay , South America ( a popular but small outsourcing country ) we have an even higher \ % of IT graduates per population than the US , ( higher education is " free " , as in , you do n't have to indebt to hell - it 's still not easy for a family to support an university student , but it 's way easier than starting years into debt ) , so your " every once in a while " claim does not apply in this case .
I do n't know about India but I suspect the # of programmers is more than enough to hire some competent ones at far less than the US equivalent .
As someone with a degree , and making U $ S 15000 ( after taxes ) a year , I know that I could be making WAY more money in a developed country ( I know I would be taken at U $ 4000 / month by my mother 's employers in Canada for instance ) , but you saying that everybody with a degree " usually " flies Stateside is a broad exaggeration... there are n't enough visas/green cards for even one tenth of graduates in my country .
I 've discarded the US as a place to emigrate to ( though I 'd like to ) .Basically what it boils down to , they 're going to get some guy who can talk the talk but not walk the walk .
He 'll agree to $ 4400 a year for as long as he can hold the job since he was only make $ 1000 a year back at his old job .
Because anyone who knows what they 're doing knows they are worth more.You would n't find anyone trained here willing to work for U $ S 4400 a year... but you could for something like U $ S 8000 a year , which is still way less than you 'd pay for in the US .
We have more than 5000 programmers doing exactly that ( Tata , the Indian outsourcing company , has a big outsourcing center here in Uruguay ) .
Heck , I personally would do it for U $ 20000 a year ( a dollar goes a long way longer here than in the US , as long as you 're not into cars or electronics ) - so you could get what I consider equivalent work for much less money - in fact that is why trade works : ) There are other problems inherent to outsourcing , but do n't think that the main one would be programming skills ( hiring , management , communications,etc... ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You get what you pay for.That's not to say there aren't educated programmers that come from developing countries.
Every once in a while a hard working family will be able to afford an education, and once they have that education, they usually fly stateside to make more money.
They know that with their education they can be making way more money than 4400 USD a year.
So they go and tack an extra digit to that paycheck, keep half and the other half is more than enough to either fly the family to the States or support them in India.Here in Uruguay, South America (a popular but small outsourcing country) we have an even higher \% of IT graduates per population than the US, (higher education is "free", as in, you don't have to indebt to hell - it's still not easy for a family to support an university student, but it's way easier than starting years into debt), so your "every once in a while" claim does not apply in this case.
I don't know about India but I suspect the # of programmers is more than enough to hire some competent ones at far less than the US equivalent.
As someone with a degree, and making U$S 15000 (after taxes) a year, I know that I could be making WAY more money in a developed country (I know I would be taken at U$ 4000 / month by my mother's employers in Canada for instance), but you saying that everybody with a degree "usually" flies Stateside is a broad exaggeration... there aren't enough visas/green cards for even one tenth of graduates in my country.
I've discarded the US as a place to emigrate to (though I'd like to).Basically what it boils down to, they're going to get some guy who can talk the talk but not walk the walk.
He'll agree to $4400 a year for as long as he can hold the job since he was only make $1000 a year back at his old job.
Because anyone who knows what they're doing knows they are worth more.You wouldn't find anyone trained here willing to work for U$S 4400 a year... but you could for something like U$S 8000 a year, which is still way less than you'd pay for in the US.
We have more than 5000 programmers doing exactly that (Tata, the Indian outsourcing company, has a big outsourcing center here in Uruguay).
Heck, I personally would do it for U$ 20000 a year (a dollar goes a long way longer here than in the US, as long as you're not into cars or electronics) - so you could get what I consider equivalent work for much less money - in fact that is why trade works :) There are other problems inherent to outsourcing, but don't think that the main one would be programming skills (hiring, management, communications,etc...).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780540</id>
	<title>Re:full-time? really?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263579060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>$5k/year would only buy interns with no education and no experience, from what my friends in Bangalore tell me.</p></div><p>Well yea, but what better place to get experience than working for the US government?</p><p>Personally, I'd like to see the entire Dept. of Labor outsourced to India or China.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 5k/year would only buy interns with no education and no experience , from what my friends in Bangalore tell me.Well yea , but what better place to get experience than working for the US government ? Personally , I 'd like to see the entire Dept .
of Labor outsourced to India or China .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$5k/year would only buy interns with no education and no experience, from what my friends in Bangalore tell me.Well yea, but what better place to get experience than working for the US government?Personally, I'd like to see the entire Dept.
of Labor outsourced to India or China.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781524</id>
	<title>Re:Am I reading this right?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263582840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I got my irony meter fixed in India once, and it was much cheaper and just as good as getting it fixed here.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I got my irony meter fixed in India once , and it was much cheaper and just as good as getting it fixed here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I got my irony meter fixed in India once, and it was much cheaper and just as good as getting it fixed here.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780318</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781220</id>
	<title>Re:Giant Deficits...</title>
	<author>clone53421</author>
	<datestamp>1263581760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'm not an American and I don't live in the USA, but from the outside looking in, it seems to me the USA is running up GIGANTIC debts and deficits, with the citizenry unwilling to pay additional taxes to fund government spending.</p></div><p>An excellent analysis.</p><p>Strangely enough, some of us think the problem is the former rather than the latter. Unfortunately not enough people have realised yet that although the government works for them, it doesn&rsquo;t work for free.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not an American and I do n't live in the USA , but from the outside looking in , it seems to me the USA is running up GIGANTIC debts and deficits , with the citizenry unwilling to pay additional taxes to fund government spending.An excellent analysis.Strangely enough , some of us think the problem is the former rather than the latter .
Unfortunately not enough people have realised yet that although the government works for them , it doesn    t work for free .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not an American and I don't live in the USA, but from the outside looking in, it seems to me the USA is running up GIGANTIC debts and deficits, with the citizenry unwilling to pay additional taxes to fund government spending.An excellent analysis.Strangely enough, some of us think the problem is the former rather than the latter.
Unfortunately not enough people have realised yet that although the government works for them, it doesn’t work for free.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780484</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781338</id>
	<title>Re:Not already?</title>
	<author>andphi</author>
	<datestamp>1263582120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Blackwater was contracted to the State Department, not the DoD.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Blackwater was contracted to the State Department , not the DoD .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Blackwater was contracted to the State Department, not the DoD.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780580</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781500</id>
	<title>Re:full-time? really?</title>
	<author>antirelic</author>
	<datestamp>1263582780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is perfect. Indians arent stupid, and their economy is growing super fast, their talent is becoming in strong demand. This isnt surprising, and actually pretty encouraging.</p><p>WTF does DOL have to try and replicated "monster.com" or "dice.com" or any of the other job websites out there? why cant government just let people find their own jobs? DOL is a hoax, and a waste of Chinese tax payer and our future great, great, great, great grand childrens tax dollars, since this is all being done on borrowed money.</p><p>Fucking socialists.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is perfect .
Indians arent stupid , and their economy is growing super fast , their talent is becoming in strong demand .
This isnt surprising , and actually pretty encouraging.WTF does DOL have to try and replicated " monster.com " or " dice.com " or any of the other job websites out there ?
why cant government just let people find their own jobs ?
DOL is a hoax , and a waste of Chinese tax payer and our future great , great , great , great grand childrens tax dollars , since this is all being done on borrowed money.Fucking socialists .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is perfect.
Indians arent stupid, and their economy is growing super fast, their talent is becoming in strong demand.
This isnt surprising, and actually pretty encouraging.WTF does DOL have to try and replicated "monster.com" or "dice.com" or any of the other job websites out there?
why cant government just let people find their own jobs?
DOL is a hoax, and a waste of Chinese tax payer and our future great, great, great, great grand childrens tax dollars, since this is all being done on borrowed money.Fucking socialists.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781514</id>
	<title>Re:The Inconvenient Truth</title>
	<author>grahamsz</author>
	<datestamp>1263582840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The education problem is huge. I was roughly fed the line of "If you try pot, even once, then before you know it you'll be on the streets selling your body for crack"</p><p>That statement in itself didn't do much to overcome peer pressure, but when it dawns on you that you haven't thrown your life away you become inclined to ignore everything else that was said. I got online and tried to inform myself, but not everyone did.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The education problem is huge .
I was roughly fed the line of " If you try pot , even once , then before you know it you 'll be on the streets selling your body for crack " That statement in itself did n't do much to overcome peer pressure , but when it dawns on you that you have n't thrown your life away you become inclined to ignore everything else that was said .
I got online and tried to inform myself , but not everyone did .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The education problem is huge.
I was roughly fed the line of "If you try pot, even once, then before you know it you'll be on the streets selling your body for crack"That statement in itself didn't do much to overcome peer pressure, but when it dawns on you that you haven't thrown your life away you become inclined to ignore everything else that was said.
I got online and tried to inform myself, but not everyone did.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780166</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780928</id>
	<title>Re:The Inconvenient Truth</title>
	<author>mcvos</author>
	<datestamp>1263580620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Pot is basically as harmless as alcohol,</p></div><p>Alcohol harmless? I don't think there's any drug that does as much damage as alcohol. Pot is very benign in comparison to alcohol and even nicotine.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Pot is basically as harmless as alcohol,Alcohol harmless ?
I do n't think there 's any drug that does as much damage as alcohol .
Pot is very benign in comparison to alcohol and even nicotine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pot is basically as harmless as alcohol,Alcohol harmless?
I don't think there's any drug that does as much damage as alcohol.
Pot is very benign in comparison to alcohol and even nicotine.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780166</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779740</id>
	<title>outsourcing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263575520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's just a matter of time until the United States Department of Defense gets outsourced</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's just a matter of time until the United States Department of Defense gets outsourced</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's just a matter of time until the United States Department of Defense gets outsourced</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30783920</id>
	<title>Re:full-time? really?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263550080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I have friends in India. I discussed IT salary differences with them. I said "this web page says you can get software engineers for $5k/year in India. Is that for real?"</p><p>I was told that <b>that's bullshit</b> and that Indian professionals actually earn in excess of $20,000 per year. $5k/year would only buy interns with no education and no experience, from what my friends in Bangalore tell me.</p></div><p>Software companies in India usually hire fresh engineering graduates for about $6K/year (and this is the minimum). Unfortunately, some companies are now hiring non-engineering/non-CS graduates instead for slightly more than half of that. It is entirely possible that such graduates may then be ready to work full-time at $4400-$6000.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have friends in India .
I discussed IT salary differences with them .
I said " this web page says you can get software engineers for $ 5k/year in India .
Is that for real ?
" I was told that that 's bullshit and that Indian professionals actually earn in excess of $ 20,000 per year .
$ 5k/year would only buy interns with no education and no experience , from what my friends in Bangalore tell me.Software companies in India usually hire fresh engineering graduates for about $ 6K/year ( and this is the minimum ) .
Unfortunately , some companies are now hiring non-engineering/non-CS graduates instead for slightly more than half of that .
It is entirely possible that such graduates may then be ready to work full-time at $ 4400- $ 6000 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have friends in India.
I discussed IT salary differences with them.
I said "this web page says you can get software engineers for $5k/year in India.
Is that for real?
"I was told that that's bullshit and that Indian professionals actually earn in excess of $20,000 per year.
$5k/year would only buy interns with no education and no experience, from what my friends in Bangalore tell me.Software companies in India usually hire fresh engineering graduates for about $6K/year (and this is the minimum).
Unfortunately, some companies are now hiring non-engineering/non-CS graduates instead for slightly more than half of that.
It is entirely possible that such graduates may then be ready to work full-time at $4400-$6000.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30782526</id>
	<title>Re:Am I reading this right?</title>
	<author>Bigbutt</author>
	<datestamp>1263587100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why not? They have non-U.S. citizens managing some TSA and IRS servers. Heck, we had to train them before we were cut loose.</p><p>[John]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not ?
They have non-U.S. citizens managing some TSA and IRS servers .
Heck , we had to train them before we were cut loose .
[ John ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why not?
They have non-U.S. citizens managing some TSA and IRS servers.
Heck, we had to train them before we were cut loose.
[John]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780318</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780446</id>
	<title>Thread debunked by TFS</title>
	<author>andy1307</author>
	<datestamp>1263578760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There's no guarantee that Indian workers recruited by that Monster.com ad would work on US Department of Labor projects.</p></div><p>Hello?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's no guarantee that Indian workers recruited by that Monster.com ad would work on US Department of Labor projects.Hello ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's no guarantee that Indian workers recruited by that Monster.com ad would work on US Department of Labor projects.Hello?
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780012</id>
	<title>4000/year ? youll only get college kids</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263576900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>or script kiddies.</p><p>4000/year is too low for getting even an average quality indian coder. i have to compete with indians in web development, i know how ridiculously low rates they pull sometimes, but these rates generally are placed in projects that can be somehow gobbled up from premade code. i dont think with 400/month you are going to get quality ppl. youll probably get some college kids in a high turnover sweat shop.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>or script kiddies.4000/year is too low for getting even an average quality indian coder .
i have to compete with indians in web development , i know how ridiculously low rates they pull sometimes , but these rates generally are placed in projects that can be somehow gobbled up from premade code .
i dont think with 400/month you are going to get quality ppl .
youll probably get some college kids in a high turnover sweat shop .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>or script kiddies.4000/year is too low for getting even an average quality indian coder.
i have to compete with indians in web development, i know how ridiculously low rates they pull sometimes, but these rates generally are placed in projects that can be somehow gobbled up from premade code.
i dont think with 400/month you are going to get quality ppl.
youll probably get some college kids in a high turnover sweat shop.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779676</id>
	<title>Re:It's Worse Than You think!</title>
	<author>toQDuj</author>
	<datestamp>1263575160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not sure the pot thing was so out-of-line actually. Everyone I speak with agrees that pot should be legalised just like in the Netherlands. That way you can keep much better control over it. Disclaimer: I'm in Denmark, after having lived in the Netherlands.</p><p>Anywho, I think governments are very keen on getting their fingers out of the argument for some reason...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure the pot thing was so out-of-line actually .
Everyone I speak with agrees that pot should be legalised just like in the Netherlands .
That way you can keep much better control over it .
Disclaimer : I 'm in Denmark , after having lived in the Netherlands.Anywho , I think governments are very keen on getting their fingers out of the argument for some reason.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not sure the pot thing was so out-of-line actually.
Everyone I speak with agrees that pot should be legalised just like in the Netherlands.
That way you can keep much better control over it.
Disclaimer: I'm in Denmark, after having lived in the Netherlands.Anywho, I think governments are very keen on getting their fingers out of the argument for some reason...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779602</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30783128</id>
	<title>Re:So, what you going to do?</title>
	<author>Katatsumuri</author>
	<datestamp>1263546780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Mod parent +1, Constructive. My 2 cents:</p><p>1. Use your advantages where they matter. It helps to be geographically close to the client, or to have the security clearance, or hell even to speak proper English in some cases.</p><p>2. Try to become a top-notch professional who is hard to replace even given worldwide supply of candidates. This is probably not a solution for everyone, but still a point for a brainstorming session.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Mod parent + 1 , Constructive .
My 2 cents : 1 .
Use your advantages where they matter .
It helps to be geographically close to the client , or to have the security clearance , or hell even to speak proper English in some cases.2 .
Try to become a top-notch professional who is hard to replace even given worldwide supply of candidates .
This is probably not a solution for everyone , but still a point for a brainstorming session .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mod parent +1, Constructive.
My 2 cents:1.
Use your advantages where they matter.
It helps to be geographically close to the client, or to have the security clearance, or hell even to speak proper English in some cases.2.
Try to become a top-notch professional who is hard to replace even given worldwide supply of candidates.
This is probably not a solution for everyone, but still a point for a brainstorming session.
</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781666</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779958</id>
	<title>Summary is a goddamned mess</title>
	<author>Gizzmonic</author>
	<datestamp>1263576660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The evil computer program that shunted those random phrases together in a mockery of English syntax should be forceably retired.  The summary manages to be long and tortured, yet strangely free of specific information.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The evil computer program that shunted those random phrases together in a mockery of English syntax should be forceably retired .
The summary manages to be long and tortured , yet strangely free of specific information .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The evil computer program that shunted those random phrases together in a mockery of English syntax should be forceably retired.
The summary manages to be long and tortured, yet strangely free of specific information.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780580</id>
	<title>Not already?</title>
	<author>twoallbeefpatties</author>
	<datestamp>1263579240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>&gt;&gt;It's just a matter of time until the United States Department of Defense gets outsourced<br> <br>

You mean like Blackwater?</htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; &gt; It 's just a matter of time until the United States Department of Defense gets outsourced You mean like Blackwater ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;&gt;It's just a matter of time until the United States Department of Defense gets outsourced 

You mean like Blackwater?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779740</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780264</id>
	<title>Re:When it comes to programming</title>
	<author>King\_TJ</author>
	<datestamp>1263577980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd agree with this, except for one thing.  You're making an assumption that programming can't be learned without a "formal education".  Most of the U.S. based software programmers I know were self-taught, actually.  Many opted to continue in that vein when they attended college, since it was their area of interest already -- but they knew how to code in languages like C++ before they even got to their first college class.</p><p>I'd argue that of all the professions out there, I.T. related work is one of the most lucrative fields a person can still "break into" without formal schooling or training.  Good software is good software, period.  If you write and release something a lot of people enjoy using and find useful, you just earned a lot of credibility.  People aren't going to say, "Great software package, but did the author complete a degree at a 4 year university?  If not, I'm not installing it until he/she does!"</p><p>My experience, just from browsing web sites like www.odesk.com, is that a  LOT of people are looking for contractors to do fairly complex computer-related projects for them, at a pay-scale of as little as $10 for completion.  It's not US citizens bidding for those jobs paying $10....  It's people in other parts of the world, for whom that $10 US goes a lot further.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd agree with this , except for one thing .
You 're making an assumption that programming ca n't be learned without a " formal education " .
Most of the U.S. based software programmers I know were self-taught , actually .
Many opted to continue in that vein when they attended college , since it was their area of interest already -- but they knew how to code in languages like C + + before they even got to their first college class.I 'd argue that of all the professions out there , I.T .
related work is one of the most lucrative fields a person can still " break into " without formal schooling or training .
Good software is good software , period .
If you write and release something a lot of people enjoy using and find useful , you just earned a lot of credibility .
People are n't going to say , " Great software package , but did the author complete a degree at a 4 year university ?
If not , I 'm not installing it until he/she does !
" My experience , just from browsing web sites like www.odesk.com , is that a LOT of people are looking for contractors to do fairly complex computer-related projects for them , at a pay-scale of as little as $ 10 for completion .
It 's not US citizens bidding for those jobs paying $ 10.... It 's people in other parts of the world , for whom that $ 10 US goes a lot further .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd agree with this, except for one thing.
You're making an assumption that programming can't be learned without a "formal education".
Most of the U.S. based software programmers I know were self-taught, actually.
Many opted to continue in that vein when they attended college, since it was their area of interest already -- but they knew how to code in languages like C++ before they even got to their first college class.I'd argue that of all the professions out there, I.T.
related work is one of the most lucrative fields a person can still "break into" without formal schooling or training.
Good software is good software, period.
If you write and release something a lot of people enjoy using and find useful, you just earned a lot of credibility.
People aren't going to say, "Great software package, but did the author complete a degree at a 4 year university?
If not, I'm not installing it until he/she does!
"My experience, just from browsing web sites like www.odesk.com, is that a  LOT of people are looking for contractors to do fairly complex computer-related projects for them, at a pay-scale of as little as $10 for completion.
It's not US citizens bidding for those jobs paying $10....  It's people in other parts of the world, for whom that $10 US goes a lot further.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781522</id>
	<title>Re:Why So Flamebait, Chums?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263582840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nuh uh, you're the gormless suggestion.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nuh uh , you 're the gormless suggestion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nuh uh, you're the gormless suggestion.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780904</id>
	<title>Re:It's Worse Than You think!</title>
	<author>mcvos</author>
	<datestamp>1263580500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The Dutch drug approach isn't exactly perfect either. Use and purchase in small quantities is legal, but production and trade in large quantities isn't, which leaves the question how coffeshops are supposed to get their weed. The only realistic answer is: illegally. So while use is legal, growth and trade is still illegal and therefore unregulated. And a source of income for organised crime.</p><p>Full legalisation and regulation would me much better, but France, the EU and the US would probably complain.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The Dutch drug approach is n't exactly perfect either .
Use and purchase in small quantities is legal , but production and trade in large quantities is n't , which leaves the question how coffeshops are supposed to get their weed .
The only realistic answer is : illegally .
So while use is legal , growth and trade is still illegal and therefore unregulated .
And a source of income for organised crime.Full legalisation and regulation would me much better , but France , the EU and the US would probably complain .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Dutch drug approach isn't exactly perfect either.
Use and purchase in small quantities is legal, but production and trade in large quantities isn't, which leaves the question how coffeshops are supposed to get their weed.
The only realistic answer is: illegally.
So while use is legal, growth and trade is still illegal and therefore unregulated.
And a source of income for organised crime.Full legalisation and regulation would me much better, but France, the EU and the US would probably complain.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30789054</id>
	<title>Re:So, what you going to do?</title>
	<author>sydneyfong</author>
	<datestamp>1263641700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I live in Hong Kong, which by all accounts is a first world city. As I understand it, a salary of (USD) $15,000/year is median income, and there are jobs that pay less than $10k/year. And although obviously living conditions aren't going to be fantastic if you get less than $10k, nobody is starving.</p><p>How do we manage it? Well, one thing is that costs of living are lower (but not really much), because we are right next to the factory of the world. But what really makes it work is: low taxes, public transport, and family culture.<br>that<br>Low taxes - Salary tax is about 10\%-15\%. That's about it. Taxes in Hong Kong are so low that it was considered a tax haven (and sometimes still is). There is property tax, but if you own property then you're not in the sub-$10k league. So, what can USA learn from this? Make your government more efficient, and don't spend billions on stupid military spending.</p><p>Public transport - Generally speaking if you're travelling in the urban areas, it's more convenient using public transport than driving a car. You just can't find parking space in the more crowded districts. And then there are traffic jams. The metro here is excellent, only that it's really crowded in the busier hours. Cars are luxury items here, and is taxed as such.</p><p>Family culture - there is no social pressure to move out of your parent's house once you're grown up. In fact traditionally generations live together in the same place, but today the norm is mostly that you move out when you get married -- so you get to deal with housing problems when you're a bit further into your career, and hopefully you're not still making less than $10k.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in Hong Kong , which by all accounts is a first world city .
As I understand it , a salary of ( USD ) $ 15,000/year is median income , and there are jobs that pay less than $ 10k/year .
And although obviously living conditions are n't going to be fantastic if you get less than $ 10k , nobody is starving.How do we manage it ?
Well , one thing is that costs of living are lower ( but not really much ) , because we are right next to the factory of the world .
But what really makes it work is : low taxes , public transport , and family culture.thatLow taxes - Salary tax is about 10 \ % -15 \ % .
That 's about it .
Taxes in Hong Kong are so low that it was considered a tax haven ( and sometimes still is ) .
There is property tax , but if you own property then you 're not in the sub- $ 10k league .
So , what can USA learn from this ?
Make your government more efficient , and do n't spend billions on stupid military spending.Public transport - Generally speaking if you 're travelling in the urban areas , it 's more convenient using public transport than driving a car .
You just ca n't find parking space in the more crowded districts .
And then there are traffic jams .
The metro here is excellent , only that it 's really crowded in the busier hours .
Cars are luxury items here , and is taxed as such.Family culture - there is no social pressure to move out of your parent 's house once you 're grown up .
In fact traditionally generations live together in the same place , but today the norm is mostly that you move out when you get married -- so you get to deal with housing problems when you 're a bit further into your career , and hopefully you 're not still making less than $ 10k .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in Hong Kong, which by all accounts is a first world city.
As I understand it, a salary of (USD) $15,000/year is median income, and there are jobs that pay less than $10k/year.
And although obviously living conditions aren't going to be fantastic if you get less than $10k, nobody is starving.How do we manage it?
Well, one thing is that costs of living are lower (but not really much), because we are right next to the factory of the world.
But what really makes it work is: low taxes, public transport, and family culture.thatLow taxes - Salary tax is about 10\%-15\%.
That's about it.
Taxes in Hong Kong are so low that it was considered a tax haven (and sometimes still is).
There is property tax, but if you own property then you're not in the sub-$10k league.
So, what can USA learn from this?
Make your government more efficient, and don't spend billions on stupid military spending.Public transport - Generally speaking if you're travelling in the urban areas, it's more convenient using public transport than driving a car.
You just can't find parking space in the more crowded districts.
And then there are traffic jams.
The metro here is excellent, only that it's really crowded in the busier hours.
Cars are luxury items here, and is taxed as such.Family culture - there is no social pressure to move out of your parent's house once you're grown up.
In fact traditionally generations live together in the same place, but today the norm is mostly that you move out when you get married -- so you get to deal with housing problems when you're a bit further into your career, and hopefully you're not still making less than $10k.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781666</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779972</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing</title>
	<author>bain\_online</author>
	<datestamp>1263576720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Interestingly <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiary\_alliance" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">thats how british took over india </a> [wikipedia.org]some 200 years ago</htmltext>
<tokenext>Interestingly thats how british took over india [ wikipedia.org ] some 200 years ago</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Interestingly thats how british took over india  [wikipedia.org]some 200 years ago</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779740</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780440</id>
	<title>$4,400 is not equal to $4,4000</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263578700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you read the article you would see that the title is bullshit. It's described as $4,4000 in the article... which with a poorly placed comment looks like 4,400 when it's actually 44,000</p><p>Which is a pretty average wage for a developer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you read the article you would see that the title is bullshit .
It 's described as $ 4,4000 in the article... which with a poorly placed comment looks like 4,400 when it 's actually 44,000Which is a pretty average wage for a developer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you read the article you would see that the title is bullshit.
It's described as $4,4000 in the article... which with a poorly placed comment looks like 4,400 when it's actually 44,000Which is a pretty average wage for a developer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780020</id>
	<title>Come on ...</title>
	<author>ubrgeek</author>
	<datestamp>1263576900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Not one reference to this being a kdawson post, or is my comment threshold set too high?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not one reference to this being a kdawson post , or is my comment threshold set too high ?
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not one reference to this being a kdawson post, or is my comment threshold set too high?
;)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781666</id>
	<title>So, what you going to do?</title>
	<author>stonewolf</author>
	<datestamp>1263583440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I happen to be one of those people who hates to be in debt as a result I own my home. My property taxes on my house are more than $4,400/year. I know, I just wrote the checks for my taxes last year. Rent for a small apartment within 20 miles of here is about twice what I pay in taxes. Even at the $15,000 mentioned as the startingr salary for coders in India I can't pay my taxes, pay for water, gas, and electricity, still be able to eat. I could live here, pay my taxes, and eat if I steal wood and cook over a fire in my back yard. There is no public transport so I would have to walk everywhere until I was able to get a peddle cart. The nearest grocery store is three miles away and other stores are 5 or more miles away. There is a hospital only half a mile away<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p><p>What I am trying to say is that where I live in central Texas our entire society is designed around the assumption that you own a car and can pay $600++/month for housing. Just to live you need about $30,000/year. Which is about twice what a full time worker makes at minimum wage. That $30,000 doesn't get you much of a life. Central Texas is not expensive compared to a lot of place in the US.</p><p>How do we make US workers competitive in a world where there are billions of people who can live on so much less? Seriously, do you have any suggestions? Can we stop bitching dlbout the problem and start solving it? In the past Americans have been pretty good about banding together and solving problems. Where is the spirit that created credit unions as an alternative to corrupt and failed banks? Where the is the spirit that create the labor unions that gave us the standard of living we currently have? Where is the will to just say "NO MORE" and forced a corrupt racist government to end Jim Crowe. (OK, that is still ending, but from my point of view we have come a looooooooong way in the right direction.)</p><p>OK, before someone points it out... yes, I guilty of not doing anything too. At least I'm asklng the question.</p><p>Stonewolf</p><p>P.S.</p><p>I don't know how true this is but I'm hearing that families in Mexico have started sending money to their relatives in the US to help them survive the recession.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I happen to be one of those people who hates to be in debt as a result I own my home .
My property taxes on my house are more than $ 4,400/year .
I know , I just wrote the checks for my taxes last year .
Rent for a small apartment within 20 miles of here is about twice what I pay in taxes .
Even at the $ 15,000 mentioned as the startingr salary for coders in India I ca n't pay my taxes , pay for water , gas , and electricity , still be able to eat .
I could live here , pay my taxes , and eat if I steal wood and cook over a fire in my back yard .
There is no public transport so I would have to walk everywhere until I was able to get a peddle cart .
The nearest grocery store is three miles away and other stores are 5 or more miles away .
There is a hospital only half a mile away : - ) What I am trying to say is that where I live in central Texas our entire society is designed around the assumption that you own a car and can pay $ 600 + + /month for housing .
Just to live you need about $ 30,000/year .
Which is about twice what a full time worker makes at minimum wage .
That $ 30,000 does n't get you much of a life .
Central Texas is not expensive compared to a lot of place in the US.How do we make US workers competitive in a world where there are billions of people who can live on so much less ?
Seriously , do you have any suggestions ?
Can we stop bitching dlbout the problem and start solving it ?
In the past Americans have been pretty good about banding together and solving problems .
Where is the spirit that created credit unions as an alternative to corrupt and failed banks ?
Where the is the spirit that create the labor unions that gave us the standard of living we currently have ?
Where is the will to just say " NO MORE " and forced a corrupt racist government to end Jim Crowe .
( OK , that is still ending , but from my point of view we have come a looooooooong way in the right direction .
) OK , before someone points it out... yes , I guilty of not doing anything too .
At least I 'm asklng the question.StonewolfP.S.I do n't know how true this is but I 'm hearing that families in Mexico have started sending money to their relatives in the US to help them survive the recession .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I happen to be one of those people who hates to be in debt as a result I own my home.
My property taxes on my house are more than $4,400/year.
I know, I just wrote the checks for my taxes last year.
Rent for a small apartment within 20 miles of here is about twice what I pay in taxes.
Even at the $15,000 mentioned as the startingr salary for coders in India I can't pay my taxes, pay for water, gas, and electricity, still be able to eat.
I could live here, pay my taxes, and eat if I steal wood and cook over a fire in my back yard.
There is no public transport so I would have to walk everywhere until I was able to get a peddle cart.
The nearest grocery store is three miles away and other stores are 5 or more miles away.
There is a hospital only half a mile away :-)What I am trying to say is that where I live in central Texas our entire society is designed around the assumption that you own a car and can pay $600++/month for housing.
Just to live you need about $30,000/year.
Which is about twice what a full time worker makes at minimum wage.
That $30,000 doesn't get you much of a life.
Central Texas is not expensive compared to a lot of place in the US.How do we make US workers competitive in a world where there are billions of people who can live on so much less?
Seriously, do you have any suggestions?
Can we stop bitching dlbout the problem and start solving it?
In the past Americans have been pretty good about banding together and solving problems.
Where is the spirit that created credit unions as an alternative to corrupt and failed banks?
Where the is the spirit that create the labor unions that gave us the standard of living we currently have?
Where is the will to just say "NO MORE" and forced a corrupt racist government to end Jim Crowe.
(OK, that is still ending, but from my point of view we have come a looooooooong way in the right direction.
)OK, before someone points it out... yes, I guilty of not doing anything too.
At least I'm asklng the question.StonewolfP.S.I don't know how true this is but I'm hearing that families in Mexico have started sending money to their relatives in the US to help them survive the recession.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781020</id>
	<title>Re:When it comes to programming</title>
	<author>jmerlin</author>
	<datestamp>1263580980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd take what you said a little further and claim that "formal education" has almost nothing to do with a person's ability as a programmer.  What you learn in the space of 4 to 8 years, or more, depending on degree (at the upper end of that scale you aren't USUALLY a practicing developer, rather a researcher), pales in comparison with what you would learn writing a few mid level to large applications and even reading open source code.  You quickly get faced with problems that aren't logically laid out for you in a path of section to section from a book where the leaps to be made are minimal because the author is doing all of the cognitive work for you, and those first few big ones are tough, you actually have to sit there and try to come up with something original, but you know some theory already, and higher level math helps with the problem solving techniques.  Solving those problems, coming up with elegant solutions or efficient algorithms to perform some action, you're learning a lot more than you would in most schools in the US (this isn't true for some of the top schools where their programs are actually reflective of what a CS program SHOULD be, not just cut and dry boring as hell theory that really doesn't teach you much except how to memorize shit).<br> <br>

Further, it's generally not the education that enables people who end up being awesome programmers.  Every one of them that I know learned almost everything they know on their own and started early on in life working with computers and was drawn to an interest of writing programs.  I learned more personally in 5th grade reading a book on IA-32 assembly than I did in the 2 years of computer science I actually took at one of these god forsaken schools in the US.  It's about more than just wanting to get a degree in the subject or making money, it's because we have a passion for it, enjoy it, and it's really fun to do after all.  It's solving puzzles, and after all, when you solve a really tough one, you feel good and it can make you money or fame!  It's also freedom; you realize you can do anything you want with that little computer in front of you and it's empowering.  If you ever want to do something, you CAN, there's no "no, you can't do that" (yes, I am ignoring the law because the law inhibits freedom of expression and thought, and as long as you don't do something EVIL, you should be OK, despite what large corporations with billions of dollars and lots of attorneys and lobbyists at capitol hill getting legislation that protects their empires of wealth may say).<br> <br>

As to why this generally means programmers from India are worse than their US counterparts; it's all about culture.  In India, as a culture, that type of personal exploration (yes, laugh at my poor choice of words) and discovery into problem solving isn't held as highly esteemed as it is in the US and some other countries.  We pride ourselves on technology and intelligence, not singularly on religion or tradition.  So it makes sense that kids become fascinated early on with technology and a portion of those ask the question "why?" and then follow through looking for the answer which leads them inexorably to this field or one of the other closely related ones: math, electrical engineering, physics, etc, as they pertain to technology.  With a society so immersed in technology, it's easy to believe that more people will be interested in learning what makes that stuff tick, and further, how they can make their own little toys.<br> <br>

I will say though that I have seen good Indian programmers.  It's very rare but I would wager where there's one, there's at least a handful more.  But close to 95\% of the Indian CS students I see are misguided or just plain terrible at it.  It seems like they come here to get a degree then to make money at a low wage, and because programmers are such a huge export from India, finding work with that degree is "easy."  I've also seen the actual source code output from some of these offshore Indian firms.  Honestly, I was almost floored at the terrible quality.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd take what you said a little further and claim that " formal education " has almost nothing to do with a person 's ability as a programmer .
What you learn in the space of 4 to 8 years , or more , depending on degree ( at the upper end of that scale you are n't USUALLY a practicing developer , rather a researcher ) , pales in comparison with what you would learn writing a few mid level to large applications and even reading open source code .
You quickly get faced with problems that are n't logically laid out for you in a path of section to section from a book where the leaps to be made are minimal because the author is doing all of the cognitive work for you , and those first few big ones are tough , you actually have to sit there and try to come up with something original , but you know some theory already , and higher level math helps with the problem solving techniques .
Solving those problems , coming up with elegant solutions or efficient algorithms to perform some action , you 're learning a lot more than you would in most schools in the US ( this is n't true for some of the top schools where their programs are actually reflective of what a CS program SHOULD be , not just cut and dry boring as hell theory that really does n't teach you much except how to memorize shit ) .
Further , it 's generally not the education that enables people who end up being awesome programmers .
Every one of them that I know learned almost everything they know on their own and started early on in life working with computers and was drawn to an interest of writing programs .
I learned more personally in 5th grade reading a book on IA-32 assembly than I did in the 2 years of computer science I actually took at one of these god forsaken schools in the US .
It 's about more than just wanting to get a degree in the subject or making money , it 's because we have a passion for it , enjoy it , and it 's really fun to do after all .
It 's solving puzzles , and after all , when you solve a really tough one , you feel good and it can make you money or fame !
It 's also freedom ; you realize you can do anything you want with that little computer in front of you and it 's empowering .
If you ever want to do something , you CAN , there 's no " no , you ca n't do that " ( yes , I am ignoring the law because the law inhibits freedom of expression and thought , and as long as you do n't do something EVIL , you should be OK , despite what large corporations with billions of dollars and lots of attorneys and lobbyists at capitol hill getting legislation that protects their empires of wealth may say ) .
As to why this generally means programmers from India are worse than their US counterparts ; it 's all about culture .
In India , as a culture , that type of personal exploration ( yes , laugh at my poor choice of words ) and discovery into problem solving is n't held as highly esteemed as it is in the US and some other countries .
We pride ourselves on technology and intelligence , not singularly on religion or tradition .
So it makes sense that kids become fascinated early on with technology and a portion of those ask the question " why ?
" and then follow through looking for the answer which leads them inexorably to this field or one of the other closely related ones : math , electrical engineering , physics , etc , as they pertain to technology .
With a society so immersed in technology , it 's easy to believe that more people will be interested in learning what makes that stuff tick , and further , how they can make their own little toys .
I will say though that I have seen good Indian programmers .
It 's very rare but I would wager where there 's one , there 's at least a handful more .
But close to 95 \ % of the Indian CS students I see are misguided or just plain terrible at it .
It seems like they come here to get a degree then to make money at a low wage , and because programmers are such a huge export from India , finding work with that degree is " easy .
" I 've also seen the actual source code output from some of these offshore Indian firms .
Honestly , I was almost floored at the terrible quality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd take what you said a little further and claim that "formal education" has almost nothing to do with a person's ability as a programmer.
What you learn in the space of 4 to 8 years, or more, depending on degree (at the upper end of that scale you aren't USUALLY a practicing developer, rather a researcher), pales in comparison with what you would learn writing a few mid level to large applications and even reading open source code.
You quickly get faced with problems that aren't logically laid out for you in a path of section to section from a book where the leaps to be made are minimal because the author is doing all of the cognitive work for you, and those first few big ones are tough, you actually have to sit there and try to come up with something original, but you know some theory already, and higher level math helps with the problem solving techniques.
Solving those problems, coming up with elegant solutions or efficient algorithms to perform some action, you're learning a lot more than you would in most schools in the US (this isn't true for some of the top schools where their programs are actually reflective of what a CS program SHOULD be, not just cut and dry boring as hell theory that really doesn't teach you much except how to memorize shit).
Further, it's generally not the education that enables people who end up being awesome programmers.
Every one of them that I know learned almost everything they know on their own and started early on in life working with computers and was drawn to an interest of writing programs.
I learned more personally in 5th grade reading a book on IA-32 assembly than I did in the 2 years of computer science I actually took at one of these god forsaken schools in the US.
It's about more than just wanting to get a degree in the subject or making money, it's because we have a passion for it, enjoy it, and it's really fun to do after all.
It's solving puzzles, and after all, when you solve a really tough one, you feel good and it can make you money or fame!
It's also freedom; you realize you can do anything you want with that little computer in front of you and it's empowering.
If you ever want to do something, you CAN, there's no "no, you can't do that" (yes, I am ignoring the law because the law inhibits freedom of expression and thought, and as long as you don't do something EVIL, you should be OK, despite what large corporations with billions of dollars and lots of attorneys and lobbyists at capitol hill getting legislation that protects their empires of wealth may say).
As to why this generally means programmers from India are worse than their US counterparts; it's all about culture.
In India, as a culture, that type of personal exploration (yes, laugh at my poor choice of words) and discovery into problem solving isn't held as highly esteemed as it is in the US and some other countries.
We pride ourselves on technology and intelligence, not singularly on religion or tradition.
So it makes sense that kids become fascinated early on with technology and a portion of those ask the question "why?
" and then follow through looking for the answer which leads them inexorably to this field or one of the other closely related ones: math, electrical engineering, physics, etc, as they pertain to technology.
With a society so immersed in technology, it's easy to believe that more people will be interested in learning what makes that stuff tick, and further, how they can make their own little toys.
I will say though that I have seen good Indian programmers.
It's very rare but I would wager where there's one, there's at least a handful more.
But close to 95\% of the Indian CS students I see are misguided or just plain terrible at it.
It seems like they come here to get a degree then to make money at a low wage, and because programmers are such a huge export from India, finding work with that degree is "easy.
"  I've also seen the actual source code output from some of these offshore Indian firms.
Honestly, I was almost floored at the terrible quality.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780264</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30784428</id>
	<title>Cognition, it's really quite fun</title>
	<author>sgt\_doom</author>
	<datestamp>1263552180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>... but then there are similar ones about skirting US labor laws by outsourcing..</i> </p><p>Dood, I already had this conversation about thirty years ago, and I realize you exist in a chronic state of mental obliviousness and befuddlement, so I'll take it slowly:  sizable number of jobs are offshored, decreasing the tax base, whereby all those F/W taxes onced flowed into.  Now, the multiplier effect kicks in, and numerous other jobs disappear because they depended upon not only the direct money flows from once-employed American workers, but those indirect tax flows from those once-employed American workers' F/W taxes.</p><p>Now, with those decreasing taxes into the American decreasing tax base, calculate all those decreasting taxes of corporations which refuse to pay fed taxes by utilizing various forms of "profit laundering" (read GAO-08-957 report).  NO MORE TAX BASE.....really, ever heard that tiresome phrase "Do the math"???</p><p>Now, that recent BLS report of a few months back, which crunched those private sector job creation numbers (Ha...ha!) and found out that effectively there was ZERO job creation in the private sector over the past ten years.  This is a direct result of having reached critical mass in the category of jobs offshoring and FDI.  Get the picture, amigo???</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... but then there are similar ones about skirting US labor laws by outsourcing.. Dood , I already had this conversation about thirty years ago , and I realize you exist in a chronic state of mental obliviousness and befuddlement , so I 'll take it slowly : sizable number of jobs are offshored , decreasing the tax base , whereby all those F/W taxes onced flowed into .
Now , the multiplier effect kicks in , and numerous other jobs disappear because they depended upon not only the direct money flows from once-employed American workers , but those indirect tax flows from those once-employed American workers ' F/W taxes.Now , with those decreasing taxes into the American decreasing tax base , calculate all those decreasting taxes of corporations which refuse to pay fed taxes by utilizing various forms of " profit laundering " ( read GAO-08-957 report ) .
NO MORE TAX BASE.....really , ever heard that tiresome phrase " Do the math " ? ?
? Now , that recent BLS report of a few months back , which crunched those private sector job creation numbers ( Ha...ha !
) and found out that effectively there was ZERO job creation in the private sector over the past ten years .
This is a direct result of having reached critical mass in the category of jobs offshoring and FDI .
Get the picture , amigo ? ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... but then there are similar ones about skirting US labor laws by outsourcing.. Dood, I already had this conversation about thirty years ago, and I realize you exist in a chronic state of mental obliviousness and befuddlement, so I'll take it slowly:  sizable number of jobs are offshored, decreasing the tax base, whereby all those F/W taxes onced flowed into.
Now, the multiplier effect kicks in, and numerous other jobs disappear because they depended upon not only the direct money flows from once-employed American workers, but those indirect tax flows from those once-employed American workers' F/W taxes.Now, with those decreasing taxes into the American decreasing tax base, calculate all those decreasting taxes of corporations which refuse to pay fed taxes by utilizing various forms of "profit laundering" (read GAO-08-957 report).
NO MORE TAX BASE.....really, ever heard that tiresome phrase "Do the math"??
?Now, that recent BLS report of a few months back, which crunched those private sector job creation numbers (Ha...ha!
) and found out that effectively there was ZERO job creation in the private sector over the past ten years.
This is a direct result of having reached critical mass in the category of jobs offshoring and FDI.
Get the picture, amigo??
?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780164</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30784268</id>
	<title>Debunking Right-Wing Trade Bullsh!t</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263551520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://econ-ecoff.blogspot.com/" title="blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://econ-ecoff.blogspot.com/</a> [blogspot.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //econ-ecoff.blogspot.com/ [ blogspot.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://econ-ecoff.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780688</id>
	<title>Re:When it comes to programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263579660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't normally feed trolls, but ignorance has to be countered somewhere.</p><p>Countries like India and China produce outstanding engineers, even though salaries are lower.  But to follow your argument, even if there's only a very tiny percentage of people who can afford an education, with over a billion people each, that's still a large number.  But don't forget: other countries fund their students to a higher level than the US, and a first class education costs relatively less too.</p><p>Our company off-shored to China.  Our engineers were earning about 1/5th of their California colleagues.  Yes, due societal conditioning, they react differently to new problems, etc, but you can't get around the fact that they are a team of very bright, very motivated, and very capable engineers who do an outstanding job (once we learnt we, on both sides of the Pacific, learnt to work with each other, and learnt each other's strengths and weaknesses).  I enjoy working with them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't normally feed trolls , but ignorance has to be countered somewhere.Countries like India and China produce outstanding engineers , even though salaries are lower .
But to follow your argument , even if there 's only a very tiny percentage of people who can afford an education , with over a billion people each , that 's still a large number .
But do n't forget : other countries fund their students to a higher level than the US , and a first class education costs relatively less too.Our company off-shored to China .
Our engineers were earning about 1/5th of their California colleagues .
Yes , due societal conditioning , they react differently to new problems , etc , but you ca n't get around the fact that they are a team of very bright , very motivated , and very capable engineers who do an outstanding job ( once we learnt we , on both sides of the Pacific , learnt to work with each other , and learnt each other 's strengths and weaknesses ) .
I enjoy working with them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't normally feed trolls, but ignorance has to be countered somewhere.Countries like India and China produce outstanding engineers, even though salaries are lower.
But to follow your argument, even if there's only a very tiny percentage of people who can afford an education, with over a billion people each, that's still a large number.
But don't forget: other countries fund their students to a higher level than the US, and a first class education costs relatively less too.Our company off-shored to China.
Our engineers were earning about 1/5th of their California colleagues.
Yes, due societal conditioning, they react differently to new problems, etc, but you can't get around the fact that they are a team of very bright, very motivated, and very capable engineers who do an outstanding job (once we learnt we, on both sides of the Pacific, learnt to work with each other, and learnt each other's strengths and weaknesses).
I enjoy working with them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30781228</id>
	<title>Re:The Inconvenient Truth</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263581760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>It's too bad Obama absolutely cannot and will not do it. It would be political suicide.</p></div></blockquote><p>Obama can't and won't do it because he's merely the president.  Prohibition is Congress' fuckup, or arguably SCOTUS' fuckup for agreeing that local trade is interstate commerce.  But of the 3 branches, the president is pretty much last in line when it comes to the responsibility for this problem.</p><p>Anyone who is looking to Obama for repairing this aspect of America, is part of the problem.  Saying Obama's name is just an excuse for not voting better in the House/Senate races.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's too bad Obama absolutely can not and will not do it .
It would be political suicide.Obama ca n't and wo n't do it because he 's merely the president .
Prohibition is Congress ' fuckup , or arguably SCOTUS ' fuckup for agreeing that local trade is interstate commerce .
But of the 3 branches , the president is pretty much last in line when it comes to the responsibility for this problem.Anyone who is looking to Obama for repairing this aspect of America , is part of the problem .
Saying Obama 's name is just an excuse for not voting better in the House/Senate races .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's too bad Obama absolutely cannot and will not do it.
It would be political suicide.Obama can't and won't do it because he's merely the president.
Prohibition is Congress' fuckup, or arguably SCOTUS' fuckup for agreeing that local trade is interstate commerce.
But of the 3 branches, the president is pretty much last in line when it comes to the responsibility for this problem.Anyone who is looking to Obama for repairing this aspect of America, is part of the problem.
Saying Obama's name is just an excuse for not voting better in the House/Senate races.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30780166</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_15_153206.30779736</id>
	<title>Shame...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263575460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><tt>that software dev wages are now so low, even in India. How low can they really push these wages??</tt></htmltext>
<tokenext>that software dev wages are now so low , even in India .
How low can they really push these wages ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>that software dev wages are now so low, even in India.
How low can they really push these wages?
?</sentencetext>
</comment>
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