<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_01_11_1344230</id>
	<title>Half of All Data Centers Understaffed</title>
	<author>CmdrTaco</author>
	<datestamp>1263217980000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>alphadogg writes <i>"Fifty percent of IT executives say <a href="http://www.networkworld.com/news/2010/111110-data-centers-understaffed.html">their data centers are understaffed</a>, and companies are still looking for more ways to cut costs, according to Symantec's latest 'State of the Data Center' report. Sixteen percent of survey respondents said their data centers are extremely understaffed, and another 34\% called their data centers somewhat understaffed. At the same time, data centers are becoming more complex and harder to manage, with more applications, data and increasingly demanding service-level agreements. 'Data center complexity has led to a lot of staffing challenges,' says Sean Derrington, director of storage management and high availability at Symantec."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>alphadogg writes " Fifty percent of IT executives say their data centers are understaffed , and companies are still looking for more ways to cut costs , according to Symantec 's latest 'State of the Data Center ' report .
Sixteen percent of survey respondents said their data centers are extremely understaffed , and another 34 \ % called their data centers somewhat understaffed .
At the same time , data centers are becoming more complex and harder to manage , with more applications , data and increasingly demanding service-level agreements .
'Data center complexity has led to a lot of staffing challenges, ' says Sean Derrington , director of storage management and high availability at Symantec .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>alphadogg writes "Fifty percent of IT executives say their data centers are understaffed, and companies are still looking for more ways to cut costs, according to Symantec's latest 'State of the Data Center' report.
Sixteen percent of survey respondents said their data centers are extremely understaffed, and another 34\% called their data centers somewhat understaffed.
At the same time, data centers are becoming more complex and harder to manage, with more applications, data and increasingly demanding service-level agreements.
'Data center complexity has led to a lot of staffing challenges,' says Sean Derrington, director of storage management and high availability at Symantec.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30725990</id>
	<title>Symantec has zero credibility</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263238140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and they are trying to sell you something.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and they are trying to sell you something .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and they are trying to sell you something.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722722</id>
	<title>Re:Should this be surprising?</title>
	<author>jittles</author>
	<datestamp>1263223320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That's why they can build better cars at a far lower cost than their American competitors can, for example.</p></div><p>Ahh I was somehow under the false impression that they were able to make cheaper cars due to lower wages, less environmental regulations, and the lack of labor unions.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's why they can build better cars at a far lower cost than their American competitors can , for example.Ahh I was somehow under the false impression that they were able to make cheaper cars due to lower wages , less environmental regulations , and the lack of labor unions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's why they can build better cars at a far lower cost than their American competitors can, for example.Ahh I was somehow under the false impression that they were able to make cheaper cars due to lower wages, less environmental regulations, and the lack of labor unions.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722526</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30725294</id>
	<title>Location of datacentres an issue.</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1263235020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One recent problem (at least in Europe, I suppose this may be more prevalent in the US)  is the tendency of many companies to move, sensibly, datacentres out of town centres or business districts, but then forgetting that most administration can be done remotely (even Windows, ha, ha, ha) and trying to relocate their IT staff in the middle of nowhere as well.</p><p>Any IT person worth hiring would desperately try to find a new job in a civilized place, thus companies are left with people that are not necessarily the best.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One recent problem ( at least in Europe , I suppose this may be more prevalent in the US ) is the tendency of many companies to move , sensibly , datacentres out of town centres or business districts , but then forgetting that most administration can be done remotely ( even Windows , ha , ha , ha ) and trying to relocate their IT staff in the middle of nowhere as well.Any IT person worth hiring would desperately try to find a new job in a civilized place , thus companies are left with people that are not necessarily the best .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One recent problem (at least in Europe, I suppose this may be more prevalent in the US)  is the tendency of many companies to move, sensibly, datacentres out of town centres or business districts, but then forgetting that most administration can be done remotely (even Windows, ha, ha, ha) and trying to relocate their IT staff in the middle of nowhere as well.Any IT person worth hiring would desperately try to find a new job in a civilized place, thus companies are left with people that are not necessarily the best.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30725084</id>
	<title>Re:What is "understaffed"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263234240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sounds like the requirements for JAVA developer job I tried to apply for and explain to the HR the impossible requirement back the late 1990's.  The JAVA job required 10-15 years of hands-on JAVA work and the HR refused to accept the fact that was impossible claim for anyone to make in the late 1990's.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds like the requirements for JAVA developer job I tried to apply for and explain to the HR the impossible requirement back the late 1990 's .
The JAVA job required 10-15 years of hands-on JAVA work and the HR refused to accept the fact that was impossible claim for anyone to make in the late 1990 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds like the requirements for JAVA developer job I tried to apply for and explain to the HR the impossible requirement back the late 1990's.
The JAVA job required 10-15 years of hands-on JAVA work and the HR refused to accept the fact that was impossible claim for anyone to make in the late 1990's.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722596</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30724952</id>
	<title>Unionize or bust!!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263233820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unionize or bust!!!  Past twenty years corporate profits up 354\%.  Wages up 14\%.  Not even enough to match inflation (the poor tax).  We no longer live in a world of nations, but rather in a world of corporations!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unionize or bust ! ! !
Past twenty years corporate profits up 354 \ % .
Wages up 14 \ % .
Not even enough to match inflation ( the poor tax ) .
We no longer live in a world of nations , but rather in a world of corporations ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unionize or bust!!!
Past twenty years corporate profits up 354\%.
Wages up 14\%.
Not even enough to match inflation (the poor tax).
We no longer live in a world of nations, but rather in a world of corporations!!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723892</id>
	<title>Re:Would this be a good time for a union?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263229020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's a good time for a union when a rich employer has a monopoly over jobs but is keeping wages low despite increasing profits.</p><p>Unionism is just another negotiating tactic. People who don't like them are either rich and fear them, hopeful that they might one day be rich and not want them to exist, or a bit on the dim side. I suspect you are one of the latter group. Never mind.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's a good time for a union when a rich employer has a monopoly over jobs but is keeping wages low despite increasing profits.Unionism is just another negotiating tactic .
People who do n't like them are either rich and fear them , hopeful that they might one day be rich and not want them to exist , or a bit on the dim side .
I suspect you are one of the latter group .
Never mind .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's a good time for a union when a rich employer has a monopoly over jobs but is keeping wages low despite increasing profits.Unionism is just another negotiating tactic.
People who don't like them are either rich and fear them, hopeful that they might one day be rich and not want them to exist, or a bit on the dim side.
I suspect you are one of the latter group.
Never mind.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723196</id>
	<title>Re:Should this be surprising?</title>
	<author>assertation</author>
	<datestamp>1263225660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Aside from Japan, those countries also have cheaper labor so cost is less of an issue with hiring</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Aside from Japan , those countries also have cheaper labor so cost is less of an issue with hiring</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Aside from Japan, those countries also have cheaper labor so cost is less of an issue with hiring</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722526</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30724426</id>
	<title>Re:Would this be a good time for a union?</title>
	<author>Geoff-with-a-G</author>
	<datestamp>1263231840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Is this not the kind of situation that a Union would prevent?</p></div></blockquote><p>
Short answer: Yes, it would likely provide that benefit, but with several other large costs, some unforeseen.
</p><p>
Slightly longer:  It's all a trade-off, no free lunches, so decreasing workload would require more spending on staff (either more hires as existing ones become less productive, or compensation for overtime, etc) which would either make the service increase in cost or decrease in quality.  Unionizing isn't always a win or always a lose - there's some industries/scenarios where it's a good fit and others where it's a bad fit.  For many reasons, IT is a poor fit for unions, despite the individual workers' desire to get paid overtime, work 35 hour weeks, and never get fired.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is this not the kind of situation that a Union would prevent ?
Short answer : Yes , it would likely provide that benefit , but with several other large costs , some unforeseen .
Slightly longer : It 's all a trade-off , no free lunches , so decreasing workload would require more spending on staff ( either more hires as existing ones become less productive , or compensation for overtime , etc ) which would either make the service increase in cost or decrease in quality .
Unionizing is n't always a win or always a lose - there 's some industries/scenarios where it 's a good fit and others where it 's a bad fit .
For many reasons , IT is a poor fit for unions , despite the individual workers ' desire to get paid overtime , work 35 hour weeks , and never get fired .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is this not the kind of situation that a Union would prevent?
Short answer: Yes, it would likely provide that benefit, but with several other large costs, some unforeseen.
Slightly longer:  It's all a trade-off, no free lunches, so decreasing workload would require more spending on staff (either more hires as existing ones become less productive, or compensation for overtime, etc) which would either make the service increase in cost or decrease in quality.
Unionizing isn't always a win or always a lose - there's some industries/scenarios where it's a good fit and others where it's a bad fit.
For many reasons, IT is a poor fit for unions, despite the individual workers' desire to get paid overtime, work 35 hour weeks, and never get fired.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722506</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30724258</id>
	<title>Re:What a Shocker</title>
	<author>Sir\_Lewk</author>
	<datestamp>1263230940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Pretty sure Dethklok qualifies as "accidental supervillains".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Pretty sure Dethklok qualifies as " accidental supervillains " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pretty sure Dethklok qualifies as "accidental supervillains".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722388</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30726826</id>
	<title>Re:In other news...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263241500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>by definition, nearly half of the population ranks below mean intelligence.</p></div><p>You mean median.  Sure, if you assume intelligence is distributed normally, it works out the same, but then you don't get to say "by definition."</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>by definition , nearly half of the population ranks below mean intelligence.You mean median .
Sure , if you assume intelligence is distributed normally , it works out the same , but then you do n't get to say " by definition .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>by definition, nearly half of the population ranks below mean intelligence.You mean median.
Sure, if you assume intelligence is distributed normally, it works out the same, but then you don't get to say "by definition.
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723392</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723564</id>
	<title>Re:In other news...</title>
	<author>kiehlster</author>
	<datestamp>1263227520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hey it's true.  My hosting provider, during a facility migration, told me at first that they couldn't support my server (in the old facility) because the admins were busy with other tickets that preceded mine.  I found out later through poking and prodding at phone support that they had one, yes, ONE system administrator handling all of their support operations at the old facility while the rest of their staff was reassigned to server migration tasks.  The reason they couldn't get to my support ticket was because the guy lived on the east coast and was asleep at the time.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey it 's true .
My hosting provider , during a facility migration , told me at first that they could n't support my server ( in the old facility ) because the admins were busy with other tickets that preceded mine .
I found out later through poking and prodding at phone support that they had one , yes , ONE system administrator handling all of their support operations at the old facility while the rest of their staff was reassigned to server migration tasks .
The reason they could n't get to my support ticket was because the guy lived on the east coast and was asleep at the time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hey it's true.
My hosting provider, during a facility migration, told me at first that they couldn't support my server (in the old facility) because the admins were busy with other tickets that preceded mine.
I found out later through poking and prodding at phone support that they had one, yes, ONE system administrator handling all of their support operations at the old facility while the rest of their staff was reassigned to server migration tasks.
The reason they couldn't get to my support ticket was because the guy lived on the east coast and was asleep at the time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30725326</id>
	<title>Re:12 hour shiths are not the ansaser</title>
	<author>Pointy\_Hair</author>
	<datestamp>1263235200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I see a special assignment in your future<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-D</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I see a special assignment in your future ; -D</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I see a special assignment in your future ;-D</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722498</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722696</id>
	<title>Re:Would this be a good time for a union?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263223260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's never a good time for a union.  Ever.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's never a good time for a union .
Ever .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's never a good time for a union.
Ever.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722506</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30728210</id>
	<title>Re:Would this be a good time for a union?</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1263202680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It does call for a different approach. For example, rather than prohibiting working after hours, require that the time be fairly compensated. Rather than ending on-call, simply insist on on-call pay.</p><p>It's notable that the most outrageous rule-driven unions got that way as a defense from management playing with loopholes. Why can't an under-performer be fired easily? Because management decides who is an under-performer, and somehow, magically, anyone who actually stuck up for the union became one. Why do they get bent out of shape if an assembly line is a tiny fraction of a percent faster than specified? Because management tried to "boil the frog" a few years ago.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It does call for a different approach .
For example , rather than prohibiting working after hours , require that the time be fairly compensated .
Rather than ending on-call , simply insist on on-call pay.It 's notable that the most outrageous rule-driven unions got that way as a defense from management playing with loopholes .
Why ca n't an under-performer be fired easily ?
Because management decides who is an under-performer , and somehow , magically , anyone who actually stuck up for the union became one .
Why do they get bent out of shape if an assembly line is a tiny fraction of a percent faster than specified ?
Because management tried to " boil the frog " a few years ago .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It does call for a different approach.
For example, rather than prohibiting working after hours, require that the time be fairly compensated.
Rather than ending on-call, simply insist on on-call pay.It's notable that the most outrageous rule-driven unions got that way as a defense from management playing with loopholes.
Why can't an under-performer be fired easily?
Because management decides who is an under-performer, and somehow, magically, anyone who actually stuck up for the union became one.
Why do they get bent out of shape if an assembly line is a tiny fraction of a percent faster than specified?
Because management tried to "boil the frog" a few years ago.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722774</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30724112</id>
	<title>Re:12 hour shiths are not the ansaser</title>
	<author>gandhi\_2</author>
	<datestamp>1263230100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...in a strip club.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...in a strip club .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...in a strip club.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30726108</id>
	<title>Re:What is "understaffed"</title>
	<author>Uberbah</author>
	<datestamp>1263238800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's why IT people need to get over conservative propaganda and their own egos and get a damned union already.  There is nothing about unions that limits your earning potential (see athletes, actors) or shelters the lazy (as if union workers want to do someone else's work any more than you do) that isn't at least as prevalent at non-union shops.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's why IT people need to get over conservative propaganda and their own egos and get a damned union already .
There is nothing about unions that limits your earning potential ( see athletes , actors ) or shelters the lazy ( as if union workers want to do someone else 's work any more than you do ) that is n't at least as prevalent at non-union shops .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's why IT people need to get over conservative propaganda and their own egos and get a damned union already.
There is nothing about unions that limits your earning potential (see athletes, actors) or shelters the lazy (as if union workers want to do someone else's work any more than you do) that isn't at least as prevalent at non-union shops.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30724326</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722806</id>
	<title>Re:What is "understaffed"</title>
	<author>troll8901</author>
	<datestamp>1263223620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr></p><div class="quote"><p>... require CCIE, MBA, at least masters level degree...</p></div><p>You forgot SAP, Oracle and MCTS.</p><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr></p><div class="quote"><p>... minimum ten years experience with "windows server 2008R2"...</p></div><p>No, no, you'll attract all the old forgies.  You should specify "windows server 2011R4".  I guarantee you'll attract the very best!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>... require CCIE , MBA , at least masters level degree...You forgot SAP , Oracle and MCTS .
... minimum ten years experience with " windows server 2008R2 " ...No , no , you 'll attract all the old forgies .
You should specify " windows server 2011R4 " .
I guarantee you 'll attract the very best !</tokentext>
<sentencetext> ... require CCIE, MBA, at least masters level degree...You forgot SAP, Oracle and MCTS.
... minimum ten years experience with "windows server 2008R2"...No, no, you'll attract all the old forgies.
You should specify "windows server 2011R4".
I guarantee you'll attract the very best!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722596</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30729300</id>
	<title>Re:What is "understaffed"</title>
	<author>CodeBuster</author>
	<datestamp>1263206520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Golly, we got us a shortage, best open the H1B floodgates</p></div><p> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU" title="youtube.com">How to not hire American workers</a> [youtube.com]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Golly , we got us a shortage , best open the H1B floodgates How to not hire American workers [ youtube.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Golly, we got us a shortage, best open the H1B floodgates How to not hire American workers [youtube.com]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722596</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722774</id>
	<title>Re:Would this be a good time for a union?</title>
	<author>gclef</author>
	<datestamp>1263223560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's going to be very dependent on the union.  (Devil's always in the details.)  Many IT folks still have the free-wheeling "just get out of my way &amp; I'll get this fixed" attitude, and in those cases union interference in their work will not be welcomed.</p><p>Basically, a collective bargaining agreement is one thing...having someone outside the organization set the bounds of your job (and set limits on how you can be promoted, or which incompetent f-up can be fired) is quite another.  I won't say a union is impossible, but it probably wouldn't be one of the big names.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's going to be very dependent on the union .
( Devil 's always in the details .
) Many IT folks still have the free-wheeling " just get out of my way &amp; I 'll get this fixed " attitude , and in those cases union interference in their work will not be welcomed.Basically , a collective bargaining agreement is one thing...having someone outside the organization set the bounds of your job ( and set limits on how you can be promoted , or which incompetent f-up can be fired ) is quite another .
I wo n't say a union is impossible , but it probably would n't be one of the big names .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's going to be very dependent on the union.
(Devil's always in the details.
)  Many IT folks still have the free-wheeling "just get out of my way &amp; I'll get this fixed" attitude, and in those cases union interference in their work will not be welcomed.Basically, a collective bargaining agreement is one thing...having someone outside the organization set the bounds of your job (and set limits on how you can be promoted, or which incompetent f-up can be fired) is quite another.
I won't say a union is impossible, but it probably wouldn't be one of the big names.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722506</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722506</id>
	<title>Would this be a good time for a union?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263222300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; 50 \% understaffed, 16 \% seriously.<br>So how many of you have to answer your blackberries after work?<br>Is this not the kind of situation that a Union would prevent?</p><p>(just an honest question btw, I'm not trying to troll)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; 50 \ % understaffed , 16 \ % seriously.So how many of you have to answer your blackberries after work ? Is this not the kind of situation that a Union would prevent ?
( just an honest question btw , I 'm not trying to troll )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; 50 \% understaffed, 16 \% seriously.So how many of you have to answer your blackberries after work?Is this not the kind of situation that a Union would prevent?
(just an honest question btw, I'm not trying to troll)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30724662</id>
	<title>I'm conflicted...</title>
	<author>roc97007</author>
	<datestamp>1263232800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
I'm conflicted by this statistic.  IT executives will tend to say that their data center is understaffed whether it is or not, (or more importantly whether <i>they know it</i> or not) because it serves to increase their empire.
</p><p>
That said, I've been in some frightfully understaffed datacenters.  It doesn't appear to bear much relationship to the work that actually needs to be done, more so with how good a salesperson the data center manager is.  We have two power companies in my area, both do about the same job with about the same amount of yearly sales.  Yet one has four times the data center budget than the other.  I believe it's more a mark of the drive and character of the IT executives than it is the actual workload.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm conflicted by this statistic .
IT executives will tend to say that their data center is understaffed whether it is or not , ( or more importantly whether they know it or not ) because it serves to increase their empire .
That said , I 've been in some frightfully understaffed datacenters .
It does n't appear to bear much relationship to the work that actually needs to be done , more so with how good a salesperson the data center manager is .
We have two power companies in my area , both do about the same job with about the same amount of yearly sales .
Yet one has four times the data center budget than the other .
I believe it 's more a mark of the drive and character of the IT executives than it is the actual workload .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I'm conflicted by this statistic.
IT executives will tend to say that their data center is understaffed whether it is or not, (or more importantly whether they know it or not) because it serves to increase their empire.
That said, I've been in some frightfully understaffed datacenters.
It doesn't appear to bear much relationship to the work that actually needs to be done, more so with how good a salesperson the data center manager is.
We have two power companies in my area, both do about the same job with about the same amount of yearly sales.
Yet one has four times the data center budget than the other.
I believe it's more a mark of the drive and character of the IT executives than it is the actual workload.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30727932</id>
	<title>Re:Should this be surprising?</title>
	<author>turbidostato</author>
	<datestamp>1263201720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"That's why they can build better cars at a far lower cost than their American competitors can, for example.</p><p>Ahh I was somehow under the false impression that they were able to make cheaper cars due to lower wages, less environmental regulations, and the lack of labor unions."</p><p>A false impresion indeed.  Germany is not under lower wages, less environmental regulations and have strong unions.  Despite of that they manage to build BMWs, Audis or Mercedes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" That 's why they can build better cars at a far lower cost than their American competitors can , for example.Ahh I was somehow under the false impression that they were able to make cheaper cars due to lower wages , less environmental regulations , and the lack of labor unions .
" A false impresion indeed .
Germany is not under lower wages , less environmental regulations and have strong unions .
Despite of that they manage to build BMWs , Audis or Mercedes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"That's why they can build better cars at a far lower cost than their American competitors can, for example.Ahh I was somehow under the false impression that they were able to make cheaper cars due to lower wages, less environmental regulations, and the lack of labor unions.
"A false impresion indeed.
Germany is not under lower wages, less environmental regulations and have strong unions.
Despite of that they manage to build BMWs, Audis or Mercedes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30724316</id>
	<title>Re:12 hour shiths are not the ansaser</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263231300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is when the company requires you to work "on-call" for 6-7 days a week on the 12-hour night shift.  If/when problems arise you are required to stay for the 8AM morning meeting, and boom, your little 12-hour shift from 6PM to 6AM becomes a 15 hour shift because you have to explain why the accounting database was down for 45 minutes last night, and all the reports based on it are backed up by 2 hours because the batch process had to be restarted.  Followed by another 12-hour shift in a few hours.</p><p>The problem is, offshore programmers aren't taught a lick of JCL to run the code properly.</p><p>I worked in Data Centers for years, I was happy and enjoyed the night shift until working for "Big Blue".  They would promise clients dedicated operators, but "double-dip".  Sunday nights you would routinely be watching 2 or 3 client systems at the same time, clients who were asking for / requiring dedicated operators.  Sure, you ran an IPL on Sunday night and nothing was going to happen for most of the night, but it's still wrong.</p><p>The pay was great.  Overtime was paid at time-and-a-half.  But working 70-80 hours a week for 6-weeks straight did a number on me.  It was the reason I left IT.  The client system I was responsible for had 3 operators working 12-hour shifts when I came in as the fourth.  That's right, 3 people covering 12-hour shifts 7-days a week, 365-days a year.  That's why there was double-dipping.  Just have an Operator watching another system and keep an eye on this one.  It happened with almost all the clients that hired out Mainframe Operations (The majority were run this way).  Management fought against bringing me on, and after I left, did not fill the position.</p><p>As for the Brazillions IBM sent some jobs to, they came to Boulder to train (It's called Boulder, but the IBM facility is closer to Niwot).  The majority of them had never used a computer, and they all claimed the only requirement for the job was to speak English.  It was a slap in the face for the American Operators, who had to have a college degree plus experience for the same positions.</p><p>In closing, I would go back to 12-hour shifts at a company with a dedicated Data Center.  I would never go back to a service company like IBM that treats operators like junk.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is when the company requires you to work " on-call " for 6-7 days a week on the 12-hour night shift .
If/when problems arise you are required to stay for the 8AM morning meeting , and boom , your little 12-hour shift from 6PM to 6AM becomes a 15 hour shift because you have to explain why the accounting database was down for 45 minutes last night , and all the reports based on it are backed up by 2 hours because the batch process had to be restarted .
Followed by another 12-hour shift in a few hours.The problem is , offshore programmers are n't taught a lick of JCL to run the code properly.I worked in Data Centers for years , I was happy and enjoyed the night shift until working for " Big Blue " .
They would promise clients dedicated operators , but " double-dip " .
Sunday nights you would routinely be watching 2 or 3 client systems at the same time , clients who were asking for / requiring dedicated operators .
Sure , you ran an IPL on Sunday night and nothing was going to happen for most of the night , but it 's still wrong.The pay was great .
Overtime was paid at time-and-a-half .
But working 70-80 hours a week for 6-weeks straight did a number on me .
It was the reason I left IT .
The client system I was responsible for had 3 operators working 12-hour shifts when I came in as the fourth .
That 's right , 3 people covering 12-hour shifts 7-days a week , 365-days a year .
That 's why there was double-dipping .
Just have an Operator watching another system and keep an eye on this one .
It happened with almost all the clients that hired out Mainframe Operations ( The majority were run this way ) .
Management fought against bringing me on , and after I left , did not fill the position.As for the Brazillions IBM sent some jobs to , they came to Boulder to train ( It 's called Boulder , but the IBM facility is closer to Niwot ) .
The majority of them had never used a computer , and they all claimed the only requirement for the job was to speak English .
It was a slap in the face for the American Operators , who had to have a college degree plus experience for the same positions.In closing , I would go back to 12-hour shifts at a company with a dedicated Data Center .
I would never go back to a service company like IBM that treats operators like junk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is when the company requires you to work "on-call" for 6-7 days a week on the 12-hour night shift.
If/when problems arise you are required to stay for the 8AM morning meeting, and boom, your little 12-hour shift from 6PM to 6AM becomes a 15 hour shift because you have to explain why the accounting database was down for 45 minutes last night, and all the reports based on it are backed up by 2 hours because the batch process had to be restarted.
Followed by another 12-hour shift in a few hours.The problem is, offshore programmers aren't taught a lick of JCL to run the code properly.I worked in Data Centers for years, I was happy and enjoyed the night shift until working for "Big Blue".
They would promise clients dedicated operators, but "double-dip".
Sunday nights you would routinely be watching 2 or 3 client systems at the same time, clients who were asking for / requiring dedicated operators.
Sure, you ran an IPL on Sunday night and nothing was going to happen for most of the night, but it's still wrong.The pay was great.
Overtime was paid at time-and-a-half.
But working 70-80 hours a week for 6-weeks straight did a number on me.
It was the reason I left IT.
The client system I was responsible for had 3 operators working 12-hour shifts when I came in as the fourth.
That's right, 3 people covering 12-hour shifts 7-days a week, 365-days a year.
That's why there was double-dipping.
Just have an Operator watching another system and keep an eye on this one.
It happened with almost all the clients that hired out Mainframe Operations (The majority were run this way).
Management fought against bringing me on, and after I left, did not fill the position.As for the Brazillions IBM sent some jobs to, they came to Boulder to train (It's called Boulder, but the IBM facility is closer to Niwot).
The majority of them had never used a computer, and they all claimed the only requirement for the job was to speak English.
It was a slap in the face for the American Operators, who had to have a college degree plus experience for the same positions.In closing, I would go back to 12-hour shifts at a company with a dedicated Data Center.
I would never go back to a service company like IBM that treats operators like junk.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30724606</id>
	<title>Is the Glass Half Full or Half Empty?</title>
	<author>that this is not und</author>
	<datestamp>1263232560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is it possible that Half of All Data Centers Are Overstaffed?</p><p>If the work continues to get done at these 'understaffed' data centers, maybe there's room for some housecleaning at the other data centers.</p><p>I know, I know.  Unpopular idea.  All kinds of people working in Data Centers who, uh, are hanging out on Slashdot will disagree with me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is it possible that Half of All Data Centers Are Overstaffed ? If the work continues to get done at these 'understaffed ' data centers , maybe there 's room for some housecleaning at the other data centers.I know , I know .
Unpopular idea .
All kinds of people working in Data Centers who , uh , are hanging out on Slashdot will disagree with me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is it possible that Half of All Data Centers Are Overstaffed?If the work continues to get done at these 'understaffed' data centers, maybe there's room for some housecleaning at the other data centers.I know, I know.
Unpopular idea.
All kinds of people working in Data Centers who, uh, are hanging out on Slashdot will disagree with me.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722748</id>
	<title>Re:What is "understaffed"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263223380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think this is a topic we should talk of more. Currently is see a LOT of jobs with this kind of advertisement. On the other hand they require a lot of stuff that took maybe 6-12 years to amass and then they want you to do a job to which your clearly overqualified to do.*</p><p>But then I only work 30 h a week to start with (I don't need more money). What the hell do I know of stuff like this.</p><p>* Just for the privilege of complaining about workers who dont commit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think this is a topic we should talk of more .
Currently is see a LOT of jobs with this kind of advertisement .
On the other hand they require a lot of stuff that took maybe 6-12 years to amass and then they want you to do a job to which your clearly overqualified to do .
* But then I only work 30 h a week to start with ( I do n't need more money ) .
What the hell do I know of stuff like this .
* Just for the privilege of complaining about workers who dont commit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think this is a topic we should talk of more.
Currently is see a LOT of jobs with this kind of advertisement.
On the other hand they require a lot of stuff that took maybe 6-12 years to amass and then they want you to do a job to which your clearly overqualified to do.
*But then I only work 30 h a week to start with (I don't need more money).
What the hell do I know of stuff like this.
* Just for the privilege of complaining about workers who dont commit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722596</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723392</id>
	<title>Re:In other news...</title>
	<author>INT\_QRK</author>
	<datestamp>1263226680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>The problem is that staffing levels are very often highly subjective. For most concerns, the complaint of being "under staffed" only indicates that the current staff feels overworked, a condition almost universal in all sectors of a healthy, i.e., growing, organization. For the ISO 9000-ish (or ITIL?) crowd, under staffed might mean that some formal document published a desired level at some specific point in time, the best against a workload study, and industry rules of thumb. But, since every such study measures a specific point in time, they become out of date, often obsolete by the time full staffing achieved. So, "fully staffed" is ever elusive, and this applies to every sector. We're all Bozos on this bus. In fact, any staff that's manned to the point that they're not feeling some pain risks being seen as over staffed, and a target for reallocation or cuts. Sorry to put a damper on any delicious feelings of workforce martyrdom. People also get mad at me when I point out that, by definition, nearly half of the population ranks below mean intelligence.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is that staffing levels are very often highly subjective .
For most concerns , the complaint of being " under staffed " only indicates that the current staff feels overworked , a condition almost universal in all sectors of a healthy , i.e. , growing , organization .
For the ISO 9000-ish ( or ITIL ?
) crowd , under staffed might mean that some formal document published a desired level at some specific point in time , the best against a workload study , and industry rules of thumb .
But , since every such study measures a specific point in time , they become out of date , often obsolete by the time full staffing achieved .
So , " fully staffed " is ever elusive , and this applies to every sector .
We 're all Bozos on this bus .
In fact , any staff that 's manned to the point that they 're not feeling some pain risks being seen as over staffed , and a target for reallocation or cuts .
Sorry to put a damper on any delicious feelings of workforce martyrdom .
People also get mad at me when I point out that , by definition , nearly half of the population ranks below mean intelligence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is that staffing levels are very often highly subjective.
For most concerns, the complaint of being "under staffed" only indicates that the current staff feels overworked, a condition almost universal in all sectors of a healthy, i.e., growing, organization.
For the ISO 9000-ish (or ITIL?
) crowd, under staffed might mean that some formal document published a desired level at some specific point in time, the best against a workload study, and industry rules of thumb.
But, since every such study measures a specific point in time, they become out of date, often obsolete by the time full staffing achieved.
So, "fully staffed" is ever elusive, and this applies to every sector.
We're all Bozos on this bus.
In fact, any staff that's manned to the point that they're not feeling some pain risks being seen as over staffed, and a target for reallocation or cuts.
Sorry to put a damper on any delicious feelings of workforce martyrdom.
People also get mad at me when I point out that, by definition, nearly half of the population ranks below mean intelligence.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30731692</id>
	<title>Re:12 hour shiths are not the ansaser</title>
	<author>shirotakaaki</author>
	<datestamp>1263218340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I thought you were going to say "<i>12 hour shifts are not so bad if you only work three or four</i> of the 12 hours". Nine to eight hours on Slashdot is a little extreme though.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I thought you were going to say " 12 hour shifts are not so bad if you only work three or four of the 12 hours " .
Nine to eight hours on Slashdot is a little extreme though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I thought you were going to say "12 hour shifts are not so bad if you only work three or four of the 12 hours".
Nine to eight hours on Slashdot is a little extreme though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722596</id>
	<title>What is "understaffed"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263222780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I believe understaffed means no one (in the US) is replying to the following ad:</p><p>Want to hire data center cat5 cable install tech, mandatory 60 hr week overtime, weekend 2nd 3rd shift and holidays required, require CCIE, MBA, at least masters level degree (prefer phd), minimum ten years experience with "windows server 2008R2" yearly salary $25K/yr no benefits.</p><p>Golly, we got us a shortage, best open the H1B floodgates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I believe understaffed means no one ( in the US ) is replying to the following ad : Want to hire data center cat5 cable install tech , mandatory 60 hr week overtime , weekend 2nd 3rd shift and holidays required , require CCIE , MBA , at least masters level degree ( prefer phd ) , minimum ten years experience with " windows server 2008R2 " yearly salary $ 25K/yr no benefits.Golly , we got us a shortage , best open the H1B floodgates ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I believe understaffed means no one (in the US) is replying to the following ad:Want to hire data center cat5 cable install tech, mandatory 60 hr week overtime, weekend 2nd 3rd shift and holidays required, require CCIE, MBA, at least masters level degree (prefer phd), minimum ten years experience with "windows server 2008R2" yearly salary $25K/yr no benefits.Golly, we got us a shortage, best open the H1B floodgates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722498</id>
	<title>12 hour shiths are not the ansaser</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263222240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>12 hour shifts are not the answer as well makeing people work every weekend holiday night while the boss / PHB never does any of that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>12 hour shifts are not the answer as well makeing people work every weekend holiday night while the boss / PHB never does any of that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>12 hour shifts are not the answer as well makeing people work every weekend holiday night while the boss / PHB never does any of that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30727570</id>
	<title>Re:12 hour shiths are not the ansaser</title>
	<author>turbidostato</author>
	<datestamp>1263200520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Methinks it is about time we got a professional body (or for those so inclined a union) [...] to make sure job stay local as the other professions do."</p><p>There are trades and trades.  Just try to force a company to maintain its datacenter on local personnel and next you'll see is the datacenter being outsourced as a whole.  How many japanese cars were roading in USA by the sixties?</p><p>On the other hand, for profiles that cannot be easily outsourced, yes, professional bodies and unions are the way to go no matter how "antiamerican" the big tycoons try to make it seem.  What do you thing a corporation is but a union on the financial side?  If the financial side can unionize why the labour part shouldn't?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Methinks it is about time we got a professional body ( or for those so inclined a union ) [ ... ] to make sure job stay local as the other professions do .
" There are trades and trades .
Just try to force a company to maintain its datacenter on local personnel and next you 'll see is the datacenter being outsourced as a whole .
How many japanese cars were roading in USA by the sixties ? On the other hand , for profiles that can not be easily outsourced , yes , professional bodies and unions are the way to go no matter how " antiamerican " the big tycoons try to make it seem .
What do you thing a corporation is but a union on the financial side ?
If the financial side can unionize why the labour part should n't ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Methinks it is about time we got a professional body (or for those so inclined a union) [...] to make sure job stay local as the other professions do.
"There are trades and trades.
Just try to force a company to maintain its datacenter on local personnel and next you'll see is the datacenter being outsourced as a whole.
How many japanese cars were roading in USA by the sixties?On the other hand, for profiles that cannot be easily outsourced, yes, professional bodies and unions are the way to go no matter how "antiamerican" the big tycoons try to make it seem.
What do you thing a corporation is but a union on the financial side?
If the financial side can unionize why the labour part shouldn't?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722762</id>
	<title>Re:Should this be surprising?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263223500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You'd be surprised. Remember the US (and other developed nations) are the beacons of advanced nations, so what you usually get in the developing nations is not an understanding of the reasons the advanced nations are advanced but more of a lets do what they're doing mind set which squarely focuses on the now.</p><p>So in the end you get an even worse situation. I live in a developing country and it's already the MBA's and connections and "soft skills" that are taking/took over. Expect to get nowhere like this.</p><p>I understand the importance of those individuals after actually getting there, but sustaining and/or building a nation? No way...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 'd be surprised .
Remember the US ( and other developed nations ) are the beacons of advanced nations , so what you usually get in the developing nations is not an understanding of the reasons the advanced nations are advanced but more of a lets do what they 're doing mind set which squarely focuses on the now.So in the end you get an even worse situation .
I live in a developing country and it 's already the MBA 's and connections and " soft skills " that are taking/took over .
Expect to get nowhere like this.I understand the importance of those individuals after actually getting there , but sustaining and/or building a nation ?
No way.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You'd be surprised.
Remember the US (and other developed nations) are the beacons of advanced nations, so what you usually get in the developing nations is not an understanding of the reasons the advanced nations are advanced but more of a lets do what they're doing mind set which squarely focuses on the now.So in the end you get an even worse situation.
I live in a developing country and it's already the MBA's and connections and "soft skills" that are taking/took over.
Expect to get nowhere like this.I understand the importance of those individuals after actually getting there, but sustaining and/or building a nation?
No way...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722526</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30726212</id>
	<title>LOL</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263239280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I admin about a dozen machines. I have never actually been to the datacenter. I only impose on the datacenter people when a physical action needs done, like removing cables, powering it back on, and other things that the KVM or IPMI can't handle. This so far works until the machine requires hardware repair, which has happened once, in which a twin to the machine was scrapped for parts. That is when the data center had to charge us hundreds of dollars for service (I believe they had to call in a contractor for it.)</p><p>Everytime I've gone on vacation (without fail) one of the servers crash... which is why I take my laptop with me. It's like it throws a tempertantrum when I'm not logged in via ssh. D:</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I admin about a dozen machines .
I have never actually been to the datacenter .
I only impose on the datacenter people when a physical action needs done , like removing cables , powering it back on , and other things that the KVM or IPMI ca n't handle .
This so far works until the machine requires hardware repair , which has happened once , in which a twin to the machine was scrapped for parts .
That is when the data center had to charge us hundreds of dollars for service ( I believe they had to call in a contractor for it .
) Everytime I 've gone on vacation ( without fail ) one of the servers crash... which is why I take my laptop with me .
It 's like it throws a tempertantrum when I 'm not logged in via ssh .
D :</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I admin about a dozen machines.
I have never actually been to the datacenter.
I only impose on the datacenter people when a physical action needs done, like removing cables, powering it back on, and other things that the KVM or IPMI can't handle.
This so far works until the machine requires hardware repair, which has happened once, in which a twin to the machine was scrapped for parts.
That is when the data center had to charge us hundreds of dollars for service (I believe they had to call in a contractor for it.
)Everytime I've gone on vacation (without fail) one of the servers crash... which is why I take my laptop with me.
It's like it throws a tempertantrum when I'm not logged in via ssh.
D:</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30725784</id>
	<title>Shifts and other professionals</title>
	<author>turtleshadow</author>
	<datestamp>1263237060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree with the statement but not the reason.</p><p>Doctors, Nurses, Medical Staff, Police, Fire/rescue often work 12 hour shifts and holiday.</p><p>However those professions realize and have by experience been bitten by the consequences which aid them in helping the professional know their limits and the limits of their peers.</p><p>First these professionals make mistakes during the day. More so when overtired, Even more so when out of their normal sleep pattern. Technology professionals somehow ignore this and think they are superhuman and often promote this.</p><p>"Oh I stayed up all night to fix your server!"  Pat me on the back! While probably true, I don't want to hear that sentimentality from my admin. It meant something went horribly wrong and I don't want it to ever happen again.</p><p>Doctors, etc as cited know that they would perform in a diminished capacity the next day and not schedule surgery and/or the hospital management would know to give them a resting day as the liability of mistake be too great. Safety services know that some other station has to possibly cover a crew that just came off a fire/rescue and be very wary to send the same crew back in. Technology companies ignore this to their own embarrassment which is justly earned.</p><p>Second doing business changes (minor or major) on weekends or holiday nights is \_bad business\_ in that it demonstrates the fragility and unreliability to which they do not admit to customers. Why not do the same operation during normal hours?</p><p>
&nbsp; Would anyone take their business' truck to the car mechanic for an Oil change and accept, "well we have to do it between 3am and 4am so as not to impact your business."</p><p>But it's an OIL change, it happens frequently, everyone ought to expect it to happen! This is exactly the same to me as a minor patch, price lists, firewall rules, and application rules for business policy. Such ones are expected, frequent and shouldn't have to be done like as they are now at a forsaken hour in the morning.</p><p>The more complex example is "Oh the engine overhaul is going to be b/w 3 and 4am" - I would say give me another truck that does the same thing and I'll be back after you fix my truck during the day when your awake. The analog is the system upgrade. Providers go into fits -" but but your system was so tweaked, We can't simply move it to another CPU", etc... Blah. Its because most centers don't know how to offer a real solution.</p><p>IT Professionals ought to advance the profession and figure out why they are working 12 hour shifts and holidays and then systematically eliminate these events as much as possible till only having to do so when a human life  or safety systems is jeopardized.</p><p>Why IT professionals are not publicly beating up  IT vendors for poorly written OS, barely redundant equipment, poorly designed apps, etc, is beyond the scope here.</p><p>Who is going to be the next Ralpf Nader, who will write "Unsafe at Any Speed" for the IT industry/Computing Science.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with the statement but not the reason.Doctors , Nurses , Medical Staff , Police , Fire/rescue often work 12 hour shifts and holiday.However those professions realize and have by experience been bitten by the consequences which aid them in helping the professional know their limits and the limits of their peers.First these professionals make mistakes during the day .
More so when overtired , Even more so when out of their normal sleep pattern .
Technology professionals somehow ignore this and think they are superhuman and often promote this .
" Oh I stayed up all night to fix your server !
" Pat me on the back !
While probably true , I do n't want to hear that sentimentality from my admin .
It meant something went horribly wrong and I do n't want it to ever happen again.Doctors , etc as cited know that they would perform in a diminished capacity the next day and not schedule surgery and/or the hospital management would know to give them a resting day as the liability of mistake be too great .
Safety services know that some other station has to possibly cover a crew that just came off a fire/rescue and be very wary to send the same crew back in .
Technology companies ignore this to their own embarrassment which is justly earned.Second doing business changes ( minor or major ) on weekends or holiday nights is \ _bad business \ _ in that it demonstrates the fragility and unreliability to which they do not admit to customers .
Why not do the same operation during normal hours ?
  Would anyone take their business ' truck to the car mechanic for an Oil change and accept , " well we have to do it between 3am and 4am so as not to impact your business .
" But it 's an OIL change , it happens frequently , everyone ought to expect it to happen !
This is exactly the same to me as a minor patch , price lists , firewall rules , and application rules for business policy .
Such ones are expected , frequent and should n't have to be done like as they are now at a forsaken hour in the morning.The more complex example is " Oh the engine overhaul is going to be b/w 3 and 4am " - I would say give me another truck that does the same thing and I 'll be back after you fix my truck during the day when your awake .
The analog is the system upgrade .
Providers go into fits - " but but your system was so tweaked , We ca n't simply move it to another CPU " , etc... Blah. Its because most centers do n't know how to offer a real solution.IT Professionals ought to advance the profession and figure out why they are working 12 hour shifts and holidays and then systematically eliminate these events as much as possible till only having to do so when a human life or safety systems is jeopardized.Why IT professionals are not publicly beating up IT vendors for poorly written OS , barely redundant equipment , poorly designed apps , etc , is beyond the scope here.Who is going to be the next Ralpf Nader , who will write " Unsafe at Any Speed " for the IT industry/Computing Science .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with the statement but not the reason.Doctors, Nurses, Medical Staff, Police, Fire/rescue often work 12 hour shifts and holiday.However those professions realize and have by experience been bitten by the consequences which aid them in helping the professional know their limits and the limits of their peers.First these professionals make mistakes during the day.
More so when overtired, Even more so when out of their normal sleep pattern.
Technology professionals somehow ignore this and think they are superhuman and often promote this.
"Oh I stayed up all night to fix your server!
"  Pat me on the back!
While probably true, I don't want to hear that sentimentality from my admin.
It meant something went horribly wrong and I don't want it to ever happen again.Doctors, etc as cited know that they would perform in a diminished capacity the next day and not schedule surgery and/or the hospital management would know to give them a resting day as the liability of mistake be too great.
Safety services know that some other station has to possibly cover a crew that just came off a fire/rescue and be very wary to send the same crew back in.
Technology companies ignore this to their own embarrassment which is justly earned.Second doing business changes (minor or major) on weekends or holiday nights is \_bad business\_ in that it demonstrates the fragility and unreliability to which they do not admit to customers.
Why not do the same operation during normal hours?
  Would anyone take their business' truck to the car mechanic for an Oil change and accept, "well we have to do it between 3am and 4am so as not to impact your business.
"But it's an OIL change, it happens frequently, everyone ought to expect it to happen!
This is exactly the same to me as a minor patch, price lists, firewall rules, and application rules for business policy.
Such ones are expected, frequent and shouldn't have to be done like as they are now at a forsaken hour in the morning.The more complex example is "Oh the engine overhaul is going to be b/w 3 and 4am" - I would say give me another truck that does the same thing and I'll be back after you fix my truck during the day when your awake.
The analog is the system upgrade.
Providers go into fits -" but but your system was so tweaked, We can't simply move it to another CPU", etc... Blah. Its because most centers don't know how to offer a real solution.IT Professionals ought to advance the profession and figure out why they are working 12 hour shifts and holidays and then systematically eliminate these events as much as possible till only having to do so when a human life  or safety systems is jeopardized.Why IT professionals are not publicly beating up  IT vendors for poorly written OS, barely redundant equipment, poorly designed apps, etc, is beyond the scope here.Who is going to be the next Ralpf Nader, who will write "Unsafe at Any Speed" for the IT industry/Computing Science.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722498</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723648</id>
	<title>Re:Would this be a good time for a union?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263227940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Of course a union would prevent it, but not necessarily in the way you hope. Offshoring the data center will stop your Blackberry from ringing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course a union would prevent it , but not necessarily in the way you hope .
Offshoring the data center will stop your Blackberry from ringing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course a union would prevent it, but not necessarily in the way you hope.
Offshoring the data center will stop your Blackberry from ringing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722506</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30724492</id>
	<title>Re:What is "understaffed"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263232080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think that's not his point.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think that 's not his point .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think that's not his point.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722980</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30725504</id>
	<title>Re:In other news...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263235860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>The other 50\% didn't speak enough English to do so.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The other 50 \ % did n't speak enough English to do so .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The other 50\% didn't speak enough English to do so.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30726386</id>
	<title>Re:Th e other half</title>
	<author>Tiger4</author>
	<datestamp>1263239880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Send everyone back to TTY dumb terminals.  One set of apps for everyone, controlled in the central computing facility by a couple guys in white lab coats trying to stay warm in the meat freezer cum datacenter.  All this distributed computing independence nonsense has gotten way out of hand.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Send everyone back to TTY dumb terminals .
One set of apps for everyone , controlled in the central computing facility by a couple guys in white lab coats trying to stay warm in the meat freezer cum datacenter .
All this distributed computing independence nonsense has gotten way out of hand .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Send everyone back to TTY dumb terminals.
One set of apps for everyone, controlled in the central computing facility by a couple guys in white lab coats trying to stay warm in the meat freezer cum datacenter.
All this distributed computing independence nonsense has gotten way out of hand.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722342</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723050</id>
	<title>Re:Should this be surprising?</title>
	<author>gusmao</author>
	<datestamp>1263224940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is not a problem specific to data centers, but rather to IT in general. <p>

In the company I work for, the development team was first reduced by half (all contractors were let go), and then further sliced by 20\%. Nobody from the business/management side was dismissed, and keep in mind that those people's job is just to tell the engineers what to do. Things got to the point that now we have more people giving orders than people to actually follow them through. </p><p>

Meanwhile, the deadlines got more aggressive, the plans more grandiose, and micromanagement ever larger. Funny thing is, when the projects are late or incomplete, the IT guys are somehow to blame for it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is not a problem specific to data centers , but rather to IT in general .
In the company I work for , the development team was first reduced by half ( all contractors were let go ) , and then further sliced by 20 \ % .
Nobody from the business/management side was dismissed , and keep in mind that those people 's job is just to tell the engineers what to do .
Things got to the point that now we have more people giving orders than people to actually follow them through .
Meanwhile , the deadlines got more aggressive , the plans more grandiose , and micromanagement ever larger .
Funny thing is , when the projects are late or incomplete , the IT guys are somehow to blame for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is not a problem specific to data centers, but rather to IT in general.
In the company I work for, the development team was first reduced by half (all contractors were let go), and then further sliced by 20\%.
Nobody from the business/management side was dismissed, and keep in mind that those people's job is just to tell the engineers what to do.
Things got to the point that now we have more people giving orders than people to actually follow them through.
Meanwhile, the deadlines got more aggressive, the plans more grandiose, and micromanagement ever larger.
Funny thing is, when the projects are late or incomplete, the IT guys are somehow to blame for it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722526</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722342</id>
	<title>Th e other half</title>
	<author>ascari</author>
	<datestamp>1263221580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>And the other half runs Linux!</htmltext>
<tokenext>And the other half runs Linux !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And the other half runs Linux!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722388</id>
	<title>What a Shocker</title>
	<author>Xeleema</author>
	<datestamp>1263221880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Seems like only supervillians have fully-staffed datacenters these days...hopefully Dethklok can turn that trend around.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Seems like only supervillians have fully-staffed datacenters these days...hopefully Dethklok can turn that trend around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seems like only supervillians have fully-staffed datacenters these days...hopefully Dethklok can turn that trend around.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30726176</id>
	<title>Re:What is "understaffed"</title>
	<author>Uberbah</author>
	<datestamp>1263239100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>The new PHB doesn't realize it. He's cut our staff by 15\%, insulted us with the raises offered, put ridiculous demands on a smaller work force, and generally annoyed the hell out of us.</i></p><p>That's why man invented unions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The new PHB does n't realize it .
He 's cut our staff by 15 \ % , insulted us with the raises offered , put ridiculous demands on a smaller work force , and generally annoyed the hell out of us.That 's why man invented unions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The new PHB doesn't realize it.
He's cut our staff by 15\%, insulted us with the raises offered, put ridiculous demands on a smaller work force, and generally annoyed the hell out of us.That's why man invented unions.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723400</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723978</id>
	<title>Re:Should this be surprising?</title>
	<author>diamondsw</author>
	<datestamp>1263229440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>That's why they can build better cars at a far lower cost than their American competitors can, for example.</p></div><p>Ahh I was somehow under the false impression that they were able to make cheaper cars due to lower wages, less environmental regulations, and the lack of labor unions.</p></div><p>In Japan and South Korea? Are you joking? These countries are the very essence of technology-driven.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's why they can build better cars at a far lower cost than their American competitors can , for example.Ahh I was somehow under the false impression that they were able to make cheaper cars due to lower wages , less environmental regulations , and the lack of labor unions.In Japan and South Korea ?
Are you joking ?
These countries are the very essence of technology-driven .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's why they can build better cars at a far lower cost than their American competitors can, for example.Ahh I was somehow under the false impression that they were able to make cheaper cars due to lower wages, less environmental regulations, and the lack of labor unions.In Japan and South Korea?
Are you joking?
These countries are the very essence of technology-driven.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30726916</id>
	<title>Same old story...</title>
	<author>YankDownUnder</author>
	<datestamp>1263241800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Large corporates want to have IT service, dependability, SLA's on-time, etc etc etc, however, they don't want to pay for proper staffing, consistently hire inexperienced cheaper labour, and whinge about "not having an MCSE"! Right. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. If they don't want to pay for proper staffing, don't want to pay for proper training, don't want to pay for (insert whatever here), then they're not going to get what they want. Having worked in many HUGE corporate structures, I can very easily see that there are MANY employees that are employed that really don't need to be there - and have very little positive function - why not get rid of the chaff in the management structures and make room for those that you really need (IT administration and staff)? IF your data and applications are that important, PAY to protect that asset - instead of trying to always "go the cheap" on the IT.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Large corporates want to have IT service , dependability , SLA 's on-time , etc etc etc , however , they do n't want to pay for proper staffing , consistently hire inexperienced cheaper labour , and whinge about " not having an MCSE " !
Right. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR .
If they do n't want to pay for proper staffing , do n't want to pay for proper training , do n't want to pay for ( insert whatever here ) , then they 're not going to get what they want .
Having worked in many HUGE corporate structures , I can very easily see that there are MANY employees that are employed that really do n't need to be there - and have very little positive function - why not get rid of the chaff in the management structures and make room for those that you really need ( IT administration and staff ) ?
IF your data and applications are that important , PAY to protect that asset - instead of trying to always " go the cheap " on the IT .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Large corporates want to have IT service, dependability, SLA's on-time, etc etc etc, however, they don't want to pay for proper staffing, consistently hire inexperienced cheaper labour, and whinge about "not having an MCSE"!
Right. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
If they don't want to pay for proper staffing, don't want to pay for proper training, don't want to pay for (insert whatever here), then they're not going to get what they want.
Having worked in many HUGE corporate structures, I can very easily see that there are MANY employees that are employed that really don't need to be there - and have very little positive function - why not get rid of the chaff in the management structures and make room for those that you really need (IT administration and staff)?
IF your data and applications are that important, PAY to protect that asset - instead of trying to always "go the cheap" on the IT.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722422</id>
	<title>More Jobs Then?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263222000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I wish that this report would mean more data center jobs becoming available!</p><p>I can only wish...<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:(</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I wish that this report would mean more data center jobs becoming available ! I can only wish... : (</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wish that this report would mean more data center jobs becoming available!I can only wish... :(</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30729198</id>
	<title>Re:Don't forget Western Europe</title>
	<author>CodeBuster</author>
	<datestamp>1263206220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>While it seems most American companies see IT as the place to save costs, the companies I've dealt with here recognize that our IT systems contribute directly to our competitiveness in the global market, and invest accordingly.</p></div><p>There are some firms like this in America too but the properly run firms with low profiles and steady profits don't often make the news, unless their name is Google, because they are "boring" and "un-interesting" from a news standpoint (and I use the term "news" loosely here because most of the trade rags that publish these sorts of "tech news" stories are little more than front operations for PR firms). In any case, the marketplace and globalization will settle the matter as to which sort of organization is "superior" and the less able tech firms or firms which handle tech less ably will eventually find themselves in receivership; provided that governments don't intervene to preserve "zombie" firms and old ways of doing business at the expense of progress and creative destruction.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>While it seems most American companies see IT as the place to save costs , the companies I 've dealt with here recognize that our IT systems contribute directly to our competitiveness in the global market , and invest accordingly.There are some firms like this in America too but the properly run firms with low profiles and steady profits do n't often make the news , unless their name is Google , because they are " boring " and " un-interesting " from a news standpoint ( and I use the term " news " loosely here because most of the trade rags that publish these sorts of " tech news " stories are little more than front operations for PR firms ) .
In any case , the marketplace and globalization will settle the matter as to which sort of organization is " superior " and the less able tech firms or firms which handle tech less ably will eventually find themselves in receivership ; provided that governments do n't intervene to preserve " zombie " firms and old ways of doing business at the expense of progress and creative destruction .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While it seems most American companies see IT as the place to save costs, the companies I've dealt with here recognize that our IT systems contribute directly to our competitiveness in the global market, and invest accordingly.There are some firms like this in America too but the properly run firms with low profiles and steady profits don't often make the news, unless their name is Google, because they are "boring" and "un-interesting" from a news standpoint (and I use the term "news" loosely here because most of the trade rags that publish these sorts of "tech news" stories are little more than front operations for PR firms).
In any case, the marketplace and globalization will settle the matter as to which sort of organization is "superior" and the less able tech firms or firms which handle tech less ably will eventually find themselves in receivership; provided that governments don't intervene to preserve "zombie" firms and old ways of doing business at the expense of progress and creative destruction.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723068</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723068</id>
	<title>Don't forget Western Europe</title>
	<author>brucmack</author>
	<datestamp>1263225060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work for a Swedish company that understands the value of IT and invests resources in it accordingly. Based on my experiences with other Western European countries, this isn't abnormal.</p><p>The difference in work culture between here and the US is astounding. While it seems most American companies see IT as the place to save costs, the companies I've dealt with here recognize that our IT systems contribute directly to our competitiveness in the global market, and invest accordingly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work for a Swedish company that understands the value of IT and invests resources in it accordingly .
Based on my experiences with other Western European countries , this is n't abnormal.The difference in work culture between here and the US is astounding .
While it seems most American companies see IT as the place to save costs , the companies I 've dealt with here recognize that our IT systems contribute directly to our competitiveness in the global market , and invest accordingly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work for a Swedish company that understands the value of IT and invests resources in it accordingly.
Based on my experiences with other Western European countries, this isn't abnormal.The difference in work culture between here and the US is astounding.
While it seems most American companies see IT as the place to save costs, the companies I've dealt with here recognize that our IT systems contribute directly to our competitiveness in the global market, and invest accordingly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722526</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723410</id>
	<title>Re:Th e other half</title>
	<author>ka8zrt</author>
	<datestamp>1263226800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>-1 or more about not thinking this through though.  (and not funny at all)</p><p>As someone who has until recently done research in data centers and their operations, and personally dealt with the *NIX side of *NIX vs. NT years ago, I know the reality as opposed to the half-thought-out dreams some have.  Yes, *NIX makes it much simpler to manage a machine, and increase the (servers/admin) ratio, among others, but it is not a solution which scales to where one person can administer 10K servers.  As you add servers and applications, that ratio will reach a limit where you have to add yet another admin (operational, network, hardware, etc.).  And should that site not be willing to do so, you end up with one of those "understaffed" data centers.  Where that point is reached depends on a multitude of factors, including the behaviour of those using the data center (stupid developers, hands on users or workload characteristics cause that point to be reached sooner), the applications (a bunch of database servers will likely reach it before an equivalent amount of web servers), the amount of storage on those servers, and even the individual admins and how they are organized themselves.  Throw in things like buying the cheapest  hardware, or buying bleeding edge hardware (say 1.5TB drives when they first come out, or 10Gb ethernet cards), and it gets even worse as you try to deal with first generation drives failing or buggy drivers.</p><p>Can two people administer 500+ servers with 1.5PB of storage?  I know personally that it is possible.  But to do it and keep everyone 100\% happy?  No.  And that precludes things like having people who are hard to satisfy, having to backup all that data, running it in a non-university production environment, etc.  When I left CompuServe in 1997, the numbers were far different, with IIRC 25-30 operators of varying skill levels, about 10 of us in admin positions (who were called upon by the operators when they could not handle something), and around half a dozen or so network and hardware folks.  Total number of servers?  Around 1200 running BSD/OS, and around another 1000 running either our proprietary OS on systems which came out of the DecSystem 20 designs, or systems running a specialized NT 3.51 load, and perhaps a total data storage of around 1.5TB.  And things were simplified by things such as having dozens of machines which were identical handling application X.  Of course, we also had 3 data centers, and did backups of at least one of each machine in a given group.  And then there is the fact that some applications required the developers to administer the application itself.</p><p>And looking forward... There were no regular 12 hour shifts at either of these.  Yes, I was on call darn near 24*365 (I got vacation time off at my latest employer, but at CSI, I was on call even during vacation, and averaged 80hrs/week at the end).  But when the fecal material hit the fan, and we had unusual problems like a computer room flooding or a critical server failing... it was possible to have to put in a 24 hour shift.  Such is the life of a senior systems engineer in an operations group, which is one reason I try to avoid positions like these.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>-1 or more about not thinking this through though .
( and not funny at all ) As someone who has until recently done research in data centers and their operations , and personally dealt with the * NIX side of * NIX vs. NT years ago , I know the reality as opposed to the half-thought-out dreams some have .
Yes , * NIX makes it much simpler to manage a machine , and increase the ( servers/admin ) ratio , among others , but it is not a solution which scales to where one person can administer 10K servers .
As you add servers and applications , that ratio will reach a limit where you have to add yet another admin ( operational , network , hardware , etc. ) .
And should that site not be willing to do so , you end up with one of those " understaffed " data centers .
Where that point is reached depends on a multitude of factors , including the behaviour of those using the data center ( stupid developers , hands on users or workload characteristics cause that point to be reached sooner ) , the applications ( a bunch of database servers will likely reach it before an equivalent amount of web servers ) , the amount of storage on those servers , and even the individual admins and how they are organized themselves .
Throw in things like buying the cheapest hardware , or buying bleeding edge hardware ( say 1.5TB drives when they first come out , or 10Gb ethernet cards ) , and it gets even worse as you try to deal with first generation drives failing or buggy drivers.Can two people administer 500 + servers with 1.5PB of storage ?
I know personally that it is possible .
But to do it and keep everyone 100 \ % happy ?
No. And that precludes things like having people who are hard to satisfy , having to backup all that data , running it in a non-university production environment , etc .
When I left CompuServe in 1997 , the numbers were far different , with IIRC 25-30 operators of varying skill levels , about 10 of us in admin positions ( who were called upon by the operators when they could not handle something ) , and around half a dozen or so network and hardware folks .
Total number of servers ?
Around 1200 running BSD/OS , and around another 1000 running either our proprietary OS on systems which came out of the DecSystem 20 designs , or systems running a specialized NT 3.51 load , and perhaps a total data storage of around 1.5TB .
And things were simplified by things such as having dozens of machines which were identical handling application X. Of course , we also had 3 data centers , and did backups of at least one of each machine in a given group .
And then there is the fact that some applications required the developers to administer the application itself.And looking forward... There were no regular 12 hour shifts at either of these .
Yes , I was on call darn near 24 * 365 ( I got vacation time off at my latest employer , but at CSI , I was on call even during vacation , and averaged 80hrs/week at the end ) .
But when the fecal material hit the fan , and we had unusual problems like a computer room flooding or a critical server failing... it was possible to have to put in a 24 hour shift .
Such is the life of a senior systems engineer in an operations group , which is one reason I try to avoid positions like these .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>-1 or more about not thinking this through though.
(and not funny at all)As someone who has until recently done research in data centers and their operations, and personally dealt with the *NIX side of *NIX vs. NT years ago, I know the reality as opposed to the half-thought-out dreams some have.
Yes, *NIX makes it much simpler to manage a machine, and increase the (servers/admin) ratio, among others, but it is not a solution which scales to where one person can administer 10K servers.
As you add servers and applications, that ratio will reach a limit where you have to add yet another admin (operational, network, hardware, etc.).
And should that site not be willing to do so, you end up with one of those "understaffed" data centers.
Where that point is reached depends on a multitude of factors, including the behaviour of those using the data center (stupid developers, hands on users or workload characteristics cause that point to be reached sooner), the applications (a bunch of database servers will likely reach it before an equivalent amount of web servers), the amount of storage on those servers, and even the individual admins and how they are organized themselves.
Throw in things like buying the cheapest  hardware, or buying bleeding edge hardware (say 1.5TB drives when they first come out, or 10Gb ethernet cards), and it gets even worse as you try to deal with first generation drives failing or buggy drivers.Can two people administer 500+ servers with 1.5PB of storage?
I know personally that it is possible.
But to do it and keep everyone 100\% happy?
No.  And that precludes things like having people who are hard to satisfy, having to backup all that data, running it in a non-university production environment, etc.
When I left CompuServe in 1997, the numbers were far different, with IIRC 25-30 operators of varying skill levels, about 10 of us in admin positions (who were called upon by the operators when they could not handle something), and around half a dozen or so network and hardware folks.
Total number of servers?
Around 1200 running BSD/OS, and around another 1000 running either our proprietary OS on systems which came out of the DecSystem 20 designs, or systems running a specialized NT 3.51 load, and perhaps a total data storage of around 1.5TB.
And things were simplified by things such as having dozens of machines which were identical handling application X.  Of course, we also had 3 data centers, and did backups of at least one of each machine in a given group.
And then there is the fact that some applications required the developers to administer the application itself.And looking forward... There were no regular 12 hour shifts at either of these.
Yes, I was on call darn near 24*365 (I got vacation time off at my latest employer, but at CSI, I was on call even during vacation, and averaged 80hrs/week at the end).
But when the fecal material hit the fan, and we had unusual problems like a computer room flooding or a critical server failing... it was possible to have to put in a 24 hour shift.
Such is the life of a senior systems engineer in an operations group, which is one reason I try to avoid positions like these.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722342</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722526</id>
	<title>Should this be surprising?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263222420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Does this really surprise anyone?</p><p>Many data centers these days are no longer run by engineers or technologists, who have at least some idea regarding the technical aspects of the operation. Rather, many of them are run by people who received their higher education in finance, commerce, accounting, "business" or (perhaps worst of all) even marketing.</p><p>Of course, such people have a very hard time seeing beyond the numbers, since they usually have absolutely no understanding of technology, nor what it takes to truly run an effective data center. They insist that the current number of staff are sufficient, even when they clearly aren't, and even when they could easily afford to hire more employees.</p><p>I think this just reflects a greater problem of the American corporate society as a whole. People with actual technical knowledge in a specific field get pushed out in favor of people with meaningless MBAs (but all of the right "connections"). So it's no wonder American productivity and competitiveness is grinding to a halt.</p><p>Other areas of the world, namely Asia, India and Eastern Europe, realize that it isn't the accountants and financiers who provide productivity, but rather the engineers, scientists and technologists. That's why they can build better cars at a far lower cost than their American competitors can, for example. That's why Korea and Japan have broadband networks that put to complete shame anything in America.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Does this really surprise anyone ? Many data centers these days are no longer run by engineers or technologists , who have at least some idea regarding the technical aspects of the operation .
Rather , many of them are run by people who received their higher education in finance , commerce , accounting , " business " or ( perhaps worst of all ) even marketing.Of course , such people have a very hard time seeing beyond the numbers , since they usually have absolutely no understanding of technology , nor what it takes to truly run an effective data center .
They insist that the current number of staff are sufficient , even when they clearly are n't , and even when they could easily afford to hire more employees.I think this just reflects a greater problem of the American corporate society as a whole .
People with actual technical knowledge in a specific field get pushed out in favor of people with meaningless MBAs ( but all of the right " connections " ) .
So it 's no wonder American productivity and competitiveness is grinding to a halt.Other areas of the world , namely Asia , India and Eastern Europe , realize that it is n't the accountants and financiers who provide productivity , but rather the engineers , scientists and technologists .
That 's why they can build better cars at a far lower cost than their American competitors can , for example .
That 's why Korea and Japan have broadband networks that put to complete shame anything in America .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does this really surprise anyone?Many data centers these days are no longer run by engineers or technologists, who have at least some idea regarding the technical aspects of the operation.
Rather, many of them are run by people who received their higher education in finance, commerce, accounting, "business" or (perhaps worst of all) even marketing.Of course, such people have a very hard time seeing beyond the numbers, since they usually have absolutely no understanding of technology, nor what it takes to truly run an effective data center.
They insist that the current number of staff are sufficient, even when they clearly aren't, and even when they could easily afford to hire more employees.I think this just reflects a greater problem of the American corporate society as a whole.
People with actual technical knowledge in a specific field get pushed out in favor of people with meaningless MBAs (but all of the right "connections").
So it's no wonder American productivity and competitiveness is grinding to a halt.Other areas of the world, namely Asia, India and Eastern Europe, realize that it isn't the accountants and financiers who provide productivity, but rather the engineers, scientists and technologists.
That's why they can build better cars at a far lower cost than their American competitors can, for example.
That's why Korea and Japan have broadband networks that put to complete shame anything in America.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30743488</id>
	<title>dc staffing- tech's POV</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263294360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> I wont bitch about working on a 24hr schedule because thats what I agreed to.  At our dc, the workflow is too inconsistent to say we are understaffed- rather, we are easily overwhelmed during off-hours if several customers have issues at once.</p><p>My main gripe is that our staff are stretched so thin that we can't use any of our vacation time without screwing over the rest of our coworkers, who have to work 14hr shifts to cover for us. Our biggest time sucks are:</p><p>1. Crappy tools mandated by corporate when we were required to standardize our toolset.  When your new ticketing system has bugs in it like "can't send emails through ticket system, and ticket system scrambles the content of any emails sent via exchange", you know you picked a winner.</p><p>2. Managed services customers who are too cheap/lazy to fix chronic problems and would rather pay us to treat the symptoms all day.  Windows admins are the worst about this- they would rather pay us $$$ to reboot a server twice a week so they can pretend a problem isn't there...</p><p>Then again, most datacenter techs i know dont stay in that occupation for log.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I wont bitch about working on a 24hr schedule because thats what I agreed to .
At our dc , the workflow is too inconsistent to say we are understaffed- rather , we are easily overwhelmed during off-hours if several customers have issues at once.My main gripe is that our staff are stretched so thin that we ca n't use any of our vacation time without screwing over the rest of our coworkers , who have to work 14hr shifts to cover for us .
Our biggest time sucks are : 1 .
Crappy tools mandated by corporate when we were required to standardize our toolset .
When your new ticketing system has bugs in it like " ca n't send emails through ticket system , and ticket system scrambles the content of any emails sent via exchange " , you know you picked a winner.2 .
Managed services customers who are too cheap/lazy to fix chronic problems and would rather pay us to treat the symptoms all day .
Windows admins are the worst about this- they would rather pay us $ $ $ to reboot a server twice a week so they can pretend a problem is n't there...Then again , most datacenter techs i know dont stay in that occupation for log .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I wont bitch about working on a 24hr schedule because thats what I agreed to.
At our dc, the workflow is too inconsistent to say we are understaffed- rather, we are easily overwhelmed during off-hours if several customers have issues at once.My main gripe is that our staff are stretched so thin that we can't use any of our vacation time without screwing over the rest of our coworkers, who have to work 14hr shifts to cover for us.
Our biggest time sucks are:1.
Crappy tools mandated by corporate when we were required to standardize our toolset.
When your new ticketing system has bugs in it like "can't send emails through ticket system, and ticket system scrambles the content of any emails sent via exchange", you know you picked a winner.2.
Managed services customers who are too cheap/lazy to fix chronic problems and would rather pay us to treat the symptoms all day.
Windows admins are the worst about this- they would rather pay us $$$ to reboot a server twice a week so they can pretend a problem isn't there...Then again, most datacenter techs i know dont stay in that occupation for log.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30729368</id>
	<title>Re:Would this be a good time for a union?</title>
	<author>juicegg</author>
	<datestamp>1263206760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Some people here have mentioned that unionizing for IT workers might do some good, but it is either not feasible due to nature of IT work or has other drawbacks.

I think IT workers (a broad category I know) should be talking about organizing first, unions second. Many of the official unions are just a different set of bosses, often fairly friendly to the original set. This does not mean that our attempts to collectively improve our conditions are doomed to harm us. Instead, how much the union works their members, how much for themselves and how much for the company depends mostly on how organized and conscious people already are in their workplace. When workers want to work more reasonable hours for a better pay and are willing to fight together, they will force their union to do the job. When the workers are apathetic, the union will manage them. The main advantages of the union are legal protections and national support, so it makes a sense to have one if people in a workplace already want to get organized, but it makes almost no sense to ask for outsiders to come from the union and organize the workplace.
</p><p>

IT workers organizing is not unprecedented. The first real IT strike I know of took place in 2004 at <a href="http://www.schneider-electric.com/" title="schneider-electric.com" rel="nofollow">Schneider Electrics</a> [schneider-electric.com] aka the GE of Europe, which produces electrical components and control systems. The company was planning to move 400 local IT workers (mostly doing tech support) to a different french company, which does outsourcing services. This meant each employee would take a 500 Euro monthly paycut and would work in worse conditions at the outsourcing shop. In response to these plans, IT workers went on strike, occupied their offices and seized some servers. The union was not happy and provided almost no support. The workers had their own daily assemblies where they discussed their situations and decided how to act. They received some support from factory floor (blue collar) workers. Ultimately they voted to end the strike and occupation, since the company wasn't willing to negotiate and the union was not willing to defend them. Although this was not a measurable victory, it's not defeat either - this sort of action makes it harder for the company to outsource people in the future. For the IT workers it was their first real strike, which changed their attitudes towards work and collective action. Some of them were not union members, but described the strike as something they had to do - the pay cut meant trouble paying mortgages.

A more detailed account (unfortunately rather politicized and not always clear, but still very valuable) is here <a href="http://libcom.org/library/strike-and-occupation-of-it-workers-at-schneider-electrics-france-2004" title="libcom.org" rel="nofollow">Strike and occupation of IT workers at Schneider Electrics</a> [libcom.org].
</p><p>

<strong>Organizing Info (union or no union)</strong>
<br>
<a href="http://libcom.org/organise/workplace-organising" title="libcom.org" rel="nofollow">Workplace Organizing</a> [libcom.org]
<br>
<a href="http://libcom.org/organise/general-organising" title="libcom.org" rel="nofollow">General Organizing</a> [libcom.org]
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some people here have mentioned that unionizing for IT workers might do some good , but it is either not feasible due to nature of IT work or has other drawbacks .
I think IT workers ( a broad category I know ) should be talking about organizing first , unions second .
Many of the official unions are just a different set of bosses , often fairly friendly to the original set .
This does not mean that our attempts to collectively improve our conditions are doomed to harm us .
Instead , how much the union works their members , how much for themselves and how much for the company depends mostly on how organized and conscious people already are in their workplace .
When workers want to work more reasonable hours for a better pay and are willing to fight together , they will force their union to do the job .
When the workers are apathetic , the union will manage them .
The main advantages of the union are legal protections and national support , so it makes a sense to have one if people in a workplace already want to get organized , but it makes almost no sense to ask for outsiders to come from the union and organize the workplace .
IT workers organizing is not unprecedented .
The first real IT strike I know of took place in 2004 at Schneider Electrics [ schneider-electric.com ] aka the GE of Europe , which produces electrical components and control systems .
The company was planning to move 400 local IT workers ( mostly doing tech support ) to a different french company , which does outsourcing services .
This meant each employee would take a 500 Euro monthly paycut and would work in worse conditions at the outsourcing shop .
In response to these plans , IT workers went on strike , occupied their offices and seized some servers .
The union was not happy and provided almost no support .
The workers had their own daily assemblies where they discussed their situations and decided how to act .
They received some support from factory floor ( blue collar ) workers .
Ultimately they voted to end the strike and occupation , since the company was n't willing to negotiate and the union was not willing to defend them .
Although this was not a measurable victory , it 's not defeat either - this sort of action makes it harder for the company to outsource people in the future .
For the IT workers it was their first real strike , which changed their attitudes towards work and collective action .
Some of them were not union members , but described the strike as something they had to do - the pay cut meant trouble paying mortgages .
A more detailed account ( unfortunately rather politicized and not always clear , but still very valuable ) is here Strike and occupation of IT workers at Schneider Electrics [ libcom.org ] .
Organizing Info ( union or no union ) Workplace Organizing [ libcom.org ] General Organizing [ libcom.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Some people here have mentioned that unionizing for IT workers might do some good, but it is either not feasible due to nature of IT work or has other drawbacks.
I think IT workers (a broad category I know) should be talking about organizing first, unions second.
Many of the official unions are just a different set of bosses, often fairly friendly to the original set.
This does not mean that our attempts to collectively improve our conditions are doomed to harm us.
Instead, how much the union works their members, how much for themselves and how much for the company depends mostly on how organized and conscious people already are in their workplace.
When workers want to work more reasonable hours for a better pay and are willing to fight together, they will force their union to do the job.
When the workers are apathetic, the union will manage them.
The main advantages of the union are legal protections and national support, so it makes a sense to have one if people in a workplace already want to get organized, but it makes almost no sense to ask for outsiders to come from the union and organize the workplace.
IT workers organizing is not unprecedented.
The first real IT strike I know of took place in 2004 at Schneider Electrics [schneider-electric.com] aka the GE of Europe, which produces electrical components and control systems.
The company was planning to move 400 local IT workers (mostly doing tech support) to a different french company, which does outsourcing services.
This meant each employee would take a 500 Euro monthly paycut and would work in worse conditions at the outsourcing shop.
In response to these plans, IT workers went on strike, occupied their offices and seized some servers.
The union was not happy and provided almost no support.
The workers had their own daily assemblies where they discussed their situations and decided how to act.
They received some support from factory floor (blue collar) workers.
Ultimately they voted to end the strike and occupation, since the company wasn't willing to negotiate and the union was not willing to defend them.
Although this was not a measurable victory, it's not defeat either - this sort of action makes it harder for the company to outsource people in the future.
For the IT workers it was their first real strike, which changed their attitudes towards work and collective action.
Some of them were not union members, but described the strike as something they had to do - the pay cut meant trouble paying mortgages.
A more detailed account (unfortunately rather politicized and not always clear, but still very valuable) is here Strike and occupation of IT workers at Schneider Electrics [libcom.org].
Organizing Info (union or no union)

Workplace Organizing [libcom.org]

General Organizing [libcom.org]
</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722506</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723400</id>
	<title>Re:What is "understaffed"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263226680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're missing the point here.  Windows Server 2008R2 has been out less than a year...certainly less than 4 years.  I went through a series of interviews with various companies years ago in which I was asked if I have 5 years experience with DotNet.  DotNet had been around for about 6 months at the time.</p><p>It's not pompousness.  Although I quickly got there.  I'd have some HR person ask me the question to which I would respond with a "no" qualified with why.  They only ever heard "no" and would tell me I didn't meet their requirements.  I got tired of trying to explain that it wasn't possible.  I went so far as to tell one recruiter that anyone who said they could meet those requirements was lying to them.  I got laughed at.</p><p>I might be a commodity when I'm on the market for a job.  When I've been with an employer for 5 years or more I'm worth more to that employer than I am to a prospective employer.  I'm not a commodity.  I'm an knowledge store.  I document my work but I don't need my documentation.  I'm efficient in ways a new employee can't be until they've been here for years.  The new PHB doesn't realize it.  He's cut our staff by 15\%, insulted us with the raises offered, put ridiculous demands on a smaller work force, and generally annoyed the hell out of us.</p><p>Most of us have taken this career path because we want to adapt.  We want to learn.  We want to keep up.  We enjoy it.  What we don't enjoy is watching companies treat us like cheap mules after we've spent years ensuring they are successful.  I work for a privately owned company.  The owners brag about their record revenues, show off their pretty toys (cars, motorcycles, etc).  Meanwhile they tell us they have no money to give us a raise that isn't an insult.  They increase their standard of living while telling us to tighten our belts.  I don't want all the toys.  I just want to provide a comfortable life for myself and my family.  The cost of living goes up and my compensation doesn't.</p><p>I know.  Shut up or get out.  I'll be getting out before long.  I have a feeling this is the case with a lot of people.  I see a big shake-up coming across IT in general.  Companies have taken the chance this economic downturn has provided them to screw over their valuable employees.  They've squandered their good will.  People are going to leave their jobs because of this and companies are going to lose a LOT of their knowledge base.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're missing the point here .
Windows Server 2008R2 has been out less than a year...certainly less than 4 years .
I went through a series of interviews with various companies years ago in which I was asked if I have 5 years experience with DotNet .
DotNet had been around for about 6 months at the time.It 's not pompousness .
Although I quickly got there .
I 'd have some HR person ask me the question to which I would respond with a " no " qualified with why .
They only ever heard " no " and would tell me I did n't meet their requirements .
I got tired of trying to explain that it was n't possible .
I went so far as to tell one recruiter that anyone who said they could meet those requirements was lying to them .
I got laughed at.I might be a commodity when I 'm on the market for a job .
When I 've been with an employer for 5 years or more I 'm worth more to that employer than I am to a prospective employer .
I 'm not a commodity .
I 'm an knowledge store .
I document my work but I do n't need my documentation .
I 'm efficient in ways a new employee ca n't be until they 've been here for years .
The new PHB does n't realize it .
He 's cut our staff by 15 \ % , insulted us with the raises offered , put ridiculous demands on a smaller work force , and generally annoyed the hell out of us.Most of us have taken this career path because we want to adapt .
We want to learn .
We want to keep up .
We enjoy it .
What we do n't enjoy is watching companies treat us like cheap mules after we 've spent years ensuring they are successful .
I work for a privately owned company .
The owners brag about their record revenues , show off their pretty toys ( cars , motorcycles , etc ) .
Meanwhile they tell us they have no money to give us a raise that is n't an insult .
They increase their standard of living while telling us to tighten our belts .
I do n't want all the toys .
I just want to provide a comfortable life for myself and my family .
The cost of living goes up and my compensation does n't.I know .
Shut up or get out .
I 'll be getting out before long .
I have a feeling this is the case with a lot of people .
I see a big shake-up coming across IT in general .
Companies have taken the chance this economic downturn has provided them to screw over their valuable employees .
They 've squandered their good will .
People are going to leave their jobs because of this and companies are going to lose a LOT of their knowledge base .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're missing the point here.
Windows Server 2008R2 has been out less than a year...certainly less than 4 years.
I went through a series of interviews with various companies years ago in which I was asked if I have 5 years experience with DotNet.
DotNet had been around for about 6 months at the time.It's not pompousness.
Although I quickly got there.
I'd have some HR person ask me the question to which I would respond with a "no" qualified with why.
They only ever heard "no" and would tell me I didn't meet their requirements.
I got tired of trying to explain that it wasn't possible.
I went so far as to tell one recruiter that anyone who said they could meet those requirements was lying to them.
I got laughed at.I might be a commodity when I'm on the market for a job.
When I've been with an employer for 5 years or more I'm worth more to that employer than I am to a prospective employer.
I'm not a commodity.
I'm an knowledge store.
I document my work but I don't need my documentation.
I'm efficient in ways a new employee can't be until they've been here for years.
The new PHB doesn't realize it.
He's cut our staff by 15\%, insulted us with the raises offered, put ridiculous demands on a smaller work force, and generally annoyed the hell out of us.Most of us have taken this career path because we want to adapt.
We want to learn.
We want to keep up.
We enjoy it.
What we don't enjoy is watching companies treat us like cheap mules after we've spent years ensuring they are successful.
I work for a privately owned company.
The owners brag about their record revenues, show off their pretty toys (cars, motorcycles, etc).
Meanwhile they tell us they have no money to give us a raise that isn't an insult.
They increase their standard of living while telling us to tighten our belts.
I don't want all the toys.
I just want to provide a comfortable life for myself and my family.
The cost of living goes up and my compensation doesn't.I know.
Shut up or get out.
I'll be getting out before long.
I have a feeling this is the case with a lot of people.
I see a big shake-up coming across IT in general.
Companies have taken the chance this economic downturn has provided them to screw over their valuable employees.
They've squandered their good will.
People are going to leave their jobs because of this and companies are going to lose a LOT of their knowledge base.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722980</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722832</id>
	<title>Re:Should this be surprising?</title>
	<author>Himring</author>
	<datestamp>1263223800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>IT will forever baffle the top brass in most companies.  Your dollar-men didn't get their via tech, but by handling the blood of the place -- the money.  Engineers -- or those with that inclination and aptitude -- stay in the lower echelons.  Those at the top are the game players, politically savvy -- honestly, cold.  I think most engineer-types dolefully lack the ability to play the political games needed to rise to a CO position in a company.  Is it any wonder that CIOs are the least positions to ever make CEO?
<br> <br>
All of this being said: a data center is technology, and technology is a mystery.  To top it off, it's not getting any easier to understand.  "Cloud computing?  What's that?"  Says the old CO who still uses an AOL account<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... that he hasn't logged into in years....
<br> <br>
Bottomline: spending money on tech is always something the big brass knows they have to do, but do so begrudgingly....</htmltext>
<tokenext>IT will forever baffle the top brass in most companies .
Your dollar-men did n't get their via tech , but by handling the blood of the place -- the money .
Engineers -- or those with that inclination and aptitude -- stay in the lower echelons .
Those at the top are the game players , politically savvy -- honestly , cold .
I think most engineer-types dolefully lack the ability to play the political games needed to rise to a CO position in a company .
Is it any wonder that CIOs are the least positions to ever make CEO ?
All of this being said : a data center is technology , and technology is a mystery .
To top it off , it 's not getting any easier to understand .
" Cloud computing ?
What 's that ?
" Says the old CO who still uses an AOL account ... that he has n't logged into in years... . Bottomline : spending money on tech is always something the big brass knows they have to do , but do so begrudgingly... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IT will forever baffle the top brass in most companies.
Your dollar-men didn't get their via tech, but by handling the blood of the place -- the money.
Engineers -- or those with that inclination and aptitude -- stay in the lower echelons.
Those at the top are the game players, politically savvy -- honestly, cold.
I think most engineer-types dolefully lack the ability to play the political games needed to rise to a CO position in a company.
Is it any wonder that CIOs are the least positions to ever make CEO?
All of this being said: a data center is technology, and technology is a mystery.
To top it off, it's not getting any easier to understand.
"Cloud computing?
What's that?
"  Says the old CO who still uses an AOL account ... that he hasn't logged into in years....
 
Bottomline: spending money on tech is always something the big brass knows they have to do, but do so begrudgingly....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722526</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30728374</id>
	<title>Re:Should this be surprising?</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1263203280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Only because, in spite of knowing those obligations existed, they chose to blow them off year after year and hope they could screw the retirees later.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Only because , in spite of knowing those obligations existed , they chose to blow them off year after year and hope they could screw the retirees later .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only because, in spite of knowing those obligations existed, they chose to blow them off year after year and hope they could screw the retirees later.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723160</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30726584</id>
	<title>I can understand why they might say this...</title>
	<author>ErichTheRed</author>
	<datestamp>1263240780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While this might just be the typical "we don't have enough qualified candidates" complaint to get around H1B requirements, I actually see the point here.</p><p>Some or all of these might be influencing this thinking:<br>- Fewer people are taking IT jobs because of the employment prospects, meaning they actually do have an applicant shortage,<br>- Companies keep paying less for IT work due to the economic situation and a general erosion of perceived value. This would translate to fewer people wanting to work for that company unless they really needed a job.<br>- Especially in data center support, with the advent of PCI, ITIL, HIPAA, SOX, and other standards, IT has become a lot more regimented. Couple that with sometimes unattainable SLAs, and the job becomes more paperwork than process...there's just less to actually do.<br>- The study is sponsored by Symantec, who makes truckloads of money selling data center automation products.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)<br>- Companies now see that they don't need their data centers, or at least they don't need them to be right next to headquarters. So let's say the company is in New York or Boston or Seattle - they're going to jump at any chance they can to move their data center to Middle of Nowhere, US. Fewer people want to work in Middle of Nowhere, where the wages are half that of New York. They also don't want to live 100 miles from the nearest city.</p><p>I actually went through the last one...my last company relocated their IT department to the south and I chose not to go. If you've lived in the Northeast your whole life, you might not like living in a place where the weather never goes below 80 degrees and it's 90+ five months out of the year. On the flip side, real estate is half the price there. But in my mind, what good is a huge house if you hate where it's sitting??</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While this might just be the typical " we do n't have enough qualified candidates " complaint to get around H1B requirements , I actually see the point here.Some or all of these might be influencing this thinking : - Fewer people are taking IT jobs because of the employment prospects , meaning they actually do have an applicant shortage,- Companies keep paying less for IT work due to the economic situation and a general erosion of perceived value .
This would translate to fewer people wanting to work for that company unless they really needed a job.- Especially in data center support , with the advent of PCI , ITIL , HIPAA , SOX , and other standards , IT has become a lot more regimented .
Couple that with sometimes unattainable SLAs , and the job becomes more paperwork than process...there 's just less to actually do.- The study is sponsored by Symantec , who makes truckloads of money selling data center automation products .
: - ) - Companies now see that they do n't need their data centers , or at least they do n't need them to be right next to headquarters .
So let 's say the company is in New York or Boston or Seattle - they 're going to jump at any chance they can to move their data center to Middle of Nowhere , US .
Fewer people want to work in Middle of Nowhere , where the wages are half that of New York .
They also do n't want to live 100 miles from the nearest city.I actually went through the last one...my last company relocated their IT department to the south and I chose not to go .
If you 've lived in the Northeast your whole life , you might not like living in a place where the weather never goes below 80 degrees and it 's 90 + five months out of the year .
On the flip side , real estate is half the price there .
But in my mind , what good is a huge house if you hate where it 's sitting ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While this might just be the typical "we don't have enough qualified candidates" complaint to get around H1B requirements, I actually see the point here.Some or all of these might be influencing this thinking:- Fewer people are taking IT jobs because of the employment prospects, meaning they actually do have an applicant shortage,- Companies keep paying less for IT work due to the economic situation and a general erosion of perceived value.
This would translate to fewer people wanting to work for that company unless they really needed a job.- Especially in data center support, with the advent of PCI, ITIL, HIPAA, SOX, and other standards, IT has become a lot more regimented.
Couple that with sometimes unattainable SLAs, and the job becomes more paperwork than process...there's just less to actually do.- The study is sponsored by Symantec, who makes truckloads of money selling data center automation products.
:-)- Companies now see that they don't need their data centers, or at least they don't need them to be right next to headquarters.
So let's say the company is in New York or Boston or Seattle - they're going to jump at any chance they can to move their data center to Middle of Nowhere, US.
Fewer people want to work in Middle of Nowhere, where the wages are half that of New York.
They also don't want to live 100 miles from the nearest city.I actually went through the last one...my last company relocated their IT department to the south and I chose not to go.
If you've lived in the Northeast your whole life, you might not like living in a place where the weather never goes below 80 degrees and it's 90+ five months out of the year.
On the flip side, real estate is half the price there.
But in my mind, what good is a huge house if you hate where it's sitting?
?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30724326</id>
	<title>Re:What is "understaffed"</title>
	<author>ITJC68</author>
	<datestamp>1263231360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The sick part is this is what you see. They want all this experience and pay nothing. I don't know about everyone else but getting degrees and certifications "cost" money to obtain. When the IT guys (myself included) stop selling ourselves short then the market will change. The problem is they starve some out and they will take a job they are overqualified for and get paid peanuts then the rest of the industry thinks this should be the norm. I have been in IT for over 10 years and this trend has not changed. At least not in the midwest. I see more jobs with temp to hire, wanting all these certifications and experience but the pay doesn't match. Go in the interview and if you ask for "proper compensation consideration" and you know you won't get the job because they mark you as greedy. In this job climate this is what you are going to see. It is an employers market. With over 10\% out of work this is the way they want it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The sick part is this is what you see .
They want all this experience and pay nothing .
I do n't know about everyone else but getting degrees and certifications " cost " money to obtain .
When the IT guys ( myself included ) stop selling ourselves short then the market will change .
The problem is they starve some out and they will take a job they are overqualified for and get paid peanuts then the rest of the industry thinks this should be the norm .
I have been in IT for over 10 years and this trend has not changed .
At least not in the midwest .
I see more jobs with temp to hire , wanting all these certifications and experience but the pay does n't match .
Go in the interview and if you ask for " proper compensation consideration " and you know you wo n't get the job because they mark you as greedy .
In this job climate this is what you are going to see .
It is an employers market .
With over 10 \ % out of work this is the way they want it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The sick part is this is what you see.
They want all this experience and pay nothing.
I don't know about everyone else but getting degrees and certifications "cost" money to obtain.
When the IT guys (myself included) stop selling ourselves short then the market will change.
The problem is they starve some out and they will take a job they are overqualified for and get paid peanuts then the rest of the industry thinks this should be the norm.
I have been in IT for over 10 years and this trend has not changed.
At least not in the midwest.
I see more jobs with temp to hire, wanting all these certifications and experience but the pay doesn't match.
Go in the interview and if you ask for "proper compensation consideration" and you know you won't get the job because they mark you as greedy.
In this job climate this is what you are going to see.
It is an employers market.
With over 10\% out of work this is the way they want it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722596</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722980</id>
	<title>Re:What is "understaffed"</title>
	<author>L4t3r4lu5</author>
	<datestamp>1263224520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Is someone twisting your arm to take this job? Are you being coerced?<br> <br>Don't whine and blame "corporate America" when you find out your CS degree doesn't guarantee you a $125k a year salary with a company car and medical cover. That boat sailed <b>long</b> ago, and you're not the first / you won't be the last to realise it. You <b>are</b> a commodity now. You're either a prodigy and make yourself very well known, or you fade into the pool of imported skills and labour, many of whom come from backgrounds where your idea of "a hard day's work" is vacation time.<br> <br>Someone else is willing to work harder than you for less money. Either lower your expectations, change your work ethic, or prepare to be swept aside by 10 others who aren't as pompous.<br> <br>Things change. Adapt.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is someone twisting your arm to take this job ?
Are you being coerced ?
Do n't whine and blame " corporate America " when you find out your CS degree does n't guarantee you a $ 125k a year salary with a company car and medical cover .
That boat sailed long ago , and you 're not the first / you wo n't be the last to realise it .
You are a commodity now .
You 're either a prodigy and make yourself very well known , or you fade into the pool of imported skills and labour , many of whom come from backgrounds where your idea of " a hard day 's work " is vacation time .
Someone else is willing to work harder than you for less money .
Either lower your expectations , change your work ethic , or prepare to be swept aside by 10 others who are n't as pompous .
Things change .
Adapt .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is someone twisting your arm to take this job?
Are you being coerced?
Don't whine and blame "corporate America" when you find out your CS degree doesn't guarantee you a $125k a year salary with a company car and medical cover.
That boat sailed long ago, and you're not the first / you won't be the last to realise it.
You are a commodity now.
You're either a prodigy and make yourself very well known, or you fade into the pool of imported skills and labour, many of whom come from backgrounds where your idea of "a hard day's work" is vacation time.
Someone else is willing to work harder than you for less money.
Either lower your expectations, change your work ethic, or prepare to be swept aside by 10 others who aren't as pompous.
Things change.
Adapt.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722596</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722418</id>
	<title>Yes, but</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263222000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>are they half full or half empty?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>are they half full or half empty ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>are they half full or half empty?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722838</id>
	<title>Re:Should this be surprising?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263223860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;&gt; So it's no wonder American productivity and competitiveness is grinding to a halt.<br>Actually American productivity has made tremendous gains during the recession as more people are stuck doing the jobs of their laid-off colleagues along with their regular jobs, all for the same pay.<br>I do completely agree that the managers are only interested in short-term results, and the only goal of government policies is to increase the power of government which is used to justify the greedy pay and benefits of the ruling class.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; &gt; So it 's no wonder American productivity and competitiveness is grinding to a halt.Actually American productivity has made tremendous gains during the recession as more people are stuck doing the jobs of their laid-off colleagues along with their regular jobs , all for the same pay.I do completely agree that the managers are only interested in short-term results , and the only goal of government policies is to increase the power of government which is used to justify the greedy pay and benefits of the ruling class .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;&gt; So it's no wonder American productivity and competitiveness is grinding to a halt.Actually American productivity has made tremendous gains during the recession as more people are stuck doing the jobs of their laid-off colleagues along with their regular jobs, all for the same pay.I do completely agree that the managers are only interested in short-term results, and the only goal of government policies is to increase the power of government which is used to justify the greedy pay and benefits of the ruling class.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722526</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30731836</id>
	<title>This has been getting worse for several years</title>
	<author>Whuffo</author>
	<datestamp>1263219240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Somehow the management types got the notion that this kind of work was like working on an assembly line. So they observe what goes on for a while, see that there's X failures per month and each tech can fix Y failures - then they do the math and reduce the headcount to just enough to keep up with the status quo.<p>
That works well until it's time to roll out some new servers - or some new virus / worm raises hell in the server farm. Then there's not enough warm bodies to respond adequately and it's a mess. Of course, its those overworked IT drones that get the blame.</p><p>

If management could see that IT people aren't "productive" as much as reactive - and that when you really need them they're worth their pay thousands of times over - then maybe they'd see that having "too many" people isn't such a bad idea.</p><p>
I'm not expecting it to change any time soon - too many managers took the same stupid classes earning their MBA and they're not likely to be able to see that you prepare NOW for the disaster that's coming. It's not if, it's when..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Somehow the management types got the notion that this kind of work was like working on an assembly line .
So they observe what goes on for a while , see that there 's X failures per month and each tech can fix Y failures - then they do the math and reduce the headcount to just enough to keep up with the status quo .
That works well until it 's time to roll out some new servers - or some new virus / worm raises hell in the server farm .
Then there 's not enough warm bodies to respond adequately and it 's a mess .
Of course , its those overworked IT drones that get the blame .
If management could see that IT people are n't " productive " as much as reactive - and that when you really need them they 're worth their pay thousands of times over - then maybe they 'd see that having " too many " people is n't such a bad idea .
I 'm not expecting it to change any time soon - too many managers took the same stupid classes earning their MBA and they 're not likely to be able to see that you prepare NOW for the disaster that 's coming .
It 's not if , it 's when. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Somehow the management types got the notion that this kind of work was like working on an assembly line.
So they observe what goes on for a while, see that there's X failures per month and each tech can fix Y failures - then they do the math and reduce the headcount to just enough to keep up with the status quo.
That works well until it's time to roll out some new servers - or some new virus / worm raises hell in the server farm.
Then there's not enough warm bodies to respond adequately and it's a mess.
Of course, its those overworked IT drones that get the blame.
If management could see that IT people aren't "productive" as much as reactive - and that when you really need them they're worth their pay thousands of times over - then maybe they'd see that having "too many" people isn't such a bad idea.
I'm not expecting it to change any time soon - too many managers took the same stupid classes earning their MBA and they're not likely to be able to see that you prepare NOW for the disaster that's coming.
It's not if, it's when..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722470</id>
	<title>In other news...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263222180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>50\% of all datacenter operators lie about their staffing levels.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>50 \ % of all datacenter operators lie about their staffing levels .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>50\% of all datacenter operators lie about their staffing levels.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30728338</id>
	<title>Re:Should this be surprising?</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1263203160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Then you were under the wrong impression. Many of the "Japanese" cars on the market in the U.S. were made in the U.S. following U.S. environmental regs and paying better than the union wage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Then you were under the wrong impression .
Many of the " Japanese " cars on the market in the U.S. were made in the U.S. following U.S. environmental regs and paying better than the union wage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then you were under the wrong impression.
Many of the "Japanese" cars on the market in the U.S. were made in the U.S. following U.S. environmental regs and paying better than the union wage.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30724636</id>
	<title>Re:Should this be surprising?</title>
	<author>fm6</author>
	<datestamp>1263232740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're confusing Sweden with China. In Sweden (and most of Western Europe) environmental regulation is actually tougher than they are in the U.S. And wages are not that far behind ours.</p><p>Funny you should make that mistake when all the right wingnuts are making so much noise about the imaginary conspiracy to turn the U.S. into a "European Socialist" economy that can't compete at all:</p><p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/opinion/11krugman.html?em" title="nytimes.com">http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/opinion/11krugman.html?em</a> [nytimes.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're confusing Sweden with China .
In Sweden ( and most of Western Europe ) environmental regulation is actually tougher than they are in the U.S. And wages are not that far behind ours.Funny you should make that mistake when all the right wingnuts are making so much noise about the imaginary conspiracy to turn the U.S. into a " European Socialist " economy that ca n't compete at all : http : //www.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/opinion/11krugman.html ? em [ nytimes.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're confusing Sweden with China.
In Sweden (and most of Western Europe) environmental regulation is actually tougher than they are in the U.S. And wages are not that far behind ours.Funny you should make that mistake when all the right wingnuts are making so much noise about the imaginary conspiracy to turn the U.S. into a "European Socialist" economy that can't compete at all:http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/opinion/11krugman.html?em [nytimes.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30725184</id>
	<title>(cough) Symantec? (cough)</title>
	<author>afabbro</author>
	<datestamp>1263234660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>"Fifty percent of IT executives say their data centers are understaffed, and companies are still looking for more ways to cut costs, according to Symantec's latest 'State of the Data Center' report.</p> </div><p>Gee, you'd almost think Symantec sold software for data center management...oh wait, <a href="http://www.veritas.com/" title="veritas.com">they do.</a> [veritas.com] </p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Fifty percent of IT executives say their data centers are understaffed , and companies are still looking for more ways to cut costs , according to Symantec 's latest 'State of the Data Center ' report .
Gee , you 'd almost think Symantec sold software for data center management...oh wait , they do .
[ veritas.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Fifty percent of IT executives say their data centers are understaffed, and companies are still looking for more ways to cut costs, according to Symantec's latest 'State of the Data Center' report.
Gee, you'd almost think Symantec sold software for data center management...oh wait, they do.
[veritas.com] 
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723754</id>
	<title>Re:12 hour shiths are not the ansaser</title>
	<author>scamper\_22</author>
	<datestamp>1263228420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>100\% of all IT jobs understaffed.</p><p>Methinks it is about time we got a professional body (or for those so inclined a union).  They would set things like standards, work requirements, exams to work in a data center, and of course we can use it to make sure job stay local as the other professions do.  I mean how can you trust your data to a non-professional data center.  I mean, do you trust people to manage their own medicines?</p><p>I say this only have cynically.  If you can't beat em, join em.  We have to stop pretending we live in a free-market and use the government like everyone else to protect our turf... all in the name of benefiting society... of course.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>100 \ % of all IT jobs understaffed.Methinks it is about time we got a professional body ( or for those so inclined a union ) .
They would set things like standards , work requirements , exams to work in a data center , and of course we can use it to make sure job stay local as the other professions do .
I mean how can you trust your data to a non-professional data center .
I mean , do you trust people to manage their own medicines ? I say this only have cynically .
If you ca n't beat em , join em .
We have to stop pretending we live in a free-market and use the government like everyone else to protect our turf... all in the name of benefiting society... of course .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>100\% of all IT jobs understaffed.Methinks it is about time we got a professional body (or for those so inclined a union).
They would set things like standards, work requirements, exams to work in a data center, and of course we can use it to make sure job stay local as the other professions do.
I mean how can you trust your data to a non-professional data center.
I mean, do you trust people to manage their own medicines?I say this only have cynically.
If you can't beat em, join em.
We have to stop pretending we live in a free-market and use the government like everyone else to protect our turf... all in the name of benefiting society... of course.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722498</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722968</id>
	<title>Re:12 hour shiths are not the ansaser</title>
	<author>scarolan</author>
	<datestamp>1263224460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>12 hour shifts are not so bad if you only work three or four days a week, alternating every other week.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>12 hour shifts are not so bad if you only work three or four days a week , alternating every other week .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>12 hour shifts are not so bad if you only work three or four days a week, alternating every other week.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722498</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723160</id>
	<title>Re:Should this be surprising?</title>
	<author>TheLink</author>
	<datestamp>1263225480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are also the past commitments the companies made like hefty pension schemes.<br><br>If your company never got itself into those, costs are lower. Otherwise you might find that one worker has to be productive enough to pay for 2 retirees, (as well as the CEO's cut<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;) ).</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are also the past commitments the companies made like hefty pension schemes.If your company never got itself into those , costs are lower .
Otherwise you might find that one worker has to be productive enough to pay for 2 retirees , ( as well as the CEO 's cut ; ) ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are also the past commitments the companies made like hefty pension schemes.If your company never got itself into those, costs are lower.
Otherwise you might find that one worker has to be productive enough to pay for 2 retirees, (as well as the CEO's cut ;) ).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723720</id>
	<title>Re:12 hour shiths are not the ansaser</title>
	<author>jellomizer</author>
	<datestamp>1263228240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For almost every company I worked for the Boss seems to work an average of 10-16 hours a day, 7 days a week and Always on call.  I had to do some traveling with my Boss once.  Although it always seems like he comes in from 10-3 every day.  They are usually working for the rest of the time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For almost every company I worked for the Boss seems to work an average of 10-16 hours a day , 7 days a week and Always on call .
I had to do some traveling with my Boss once .
Although it always seems like he comes in from 10-3 every day .
They are usually working for the rest of the time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For almost every company I worked for the Boss seems to work an average of 10-16 hours a day, 7 days a week and Always on call.
I had to do some traveling with my Boss once.
Although it always seems like he comes in from 10-3 every day.
They are usually working for the rest of the time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30722498</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30725164</id>
	<title>Re:In other news...</title>
	<author>turtleshadow</author>
	<datestamp>1263234600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Very, Very few Center Managers actually performed any kind of statistical process control analysis for quality in the datacenters I worked for which were huge and did work for<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.gov, finance and top 500 and they barely did it. They eventually fired the poor guy as he kept proving management wrong. We had long conversations that helped me understand technology for what it was: "La Technique: L'enjeu du si&#232;cle" was an eye opener.</p><p>Very few managers understood what project management &amp; change windows were in a datacenter and usually managed to a staffing model which could only break in times of heavy load,  inducing a bigger emergency later on.</p><p>Really management held the mentality of "the Maytag repair man" is who they need to hire by the business plan but the reality was a team of MacGuyver's were needed for the workload over several clients.</p><p>Even educating them on vendor patch cycles and technology refresh could not break them out of scarcity = profit mentality.</p><p>The admin team experienced over and over that that next month is the month where Microsoft is going to pound us with new critical patches. Despite explaining this, management also put the work of putting unrelated project X into motion or finishing that same next month.</p><p>Extensive studies about patch cycles or changes (failed, back out, succeeded) take a long view - an X bar control chart shows spikes and abnormals. It then takes some analysis to then determine staffing levels that can handle the work on average. It takes a huge business insight to understand why something fell outside the norm and how to handle it when it comes again. Really I don't think the technology today can be managed to wholly eliminate outlying events like traditional manufacturing processes. The now typical 3 year tech cycle prevents such work.</p><p>It is true statistical process control can be made to lie but it is better than uneducated guessing.</p><p>To me datacenters are  huge machines you can walk inside of, really no different than megawatt power generation or pharmaceutical manufacturing and ought to be better managed.  I say this in that when they go offline or do not function well an aspect of human safety and productivity is jeopardized.</p><p>My favorite manager who I worked for briefly before he retired said, "Cowboy managers and admins have no place in my shop. I want science put back into Computer Science, don't snow me with new technology."</p><p>I agree with him.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Very , Very few Center Managers actually performed any kind of statistical process control analysis for quality in the datacenters I worked for which were huge and did work for .gov , finance and top 500 and they barely did it .
They eventually fired the poor guy as he kept proving management wrong .
We had long conversations that helped me understand technology for what it was : " La Technique : L'enjeu du si   cle " was an eye opener.Very few managers understood what project management &amp; change windows were in a datacenter and usually managed to a staffing model which could only break in times of heavy load , inducing a bigger emergency later on.Really management held the mentality of " the Maytag repair man " is who they need to hire by the business plan but the reality was a team of MacGuyver 's were needed for the workload over several clients.Even educating them on vendor patch cycles and technology refresh could not break them out of scarcity = profit mentality.The admin team experienced over and over that that next month is the month where Microsoft is going to pound us with new critical patches .
Despite explaining this , management also put the work of putting unrelated project X into motion or finishing that same next month.Extensive studies about patch cycles or changes ( failed , back out , succeeded ) take a long view - an X bar control chart shows spikes and abnormals .
It then takes some analysis to then determine staffing levels that can handle the work on average .
It takes a huge business insight to understand why something fell outside the norm and how to handle it when it comes again .
Really I do n't think the technology today can be managed to wholly eliminate outlying events like traditional manufacturing processes .
The now typical 3 year tech cycle prevents such work.It is true statistical process control can be made to lie but it is better than uneducated guessing.To me datacenters are huge machines you can walk inside of , really no different than megawatt power generation or pharmaceutical manufacturing and ought to be better managed .
I say this in that when they go offline or do not function well an aspect of human safety and productivity is jeopardized.My favorite manager who I worked for briefly before he retired said , " Cowboy managers and admins have no place in my shop .
I want science put back into Computer Science , do n't snow me with new technology .
" I agree with him .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Very, Very few Center Managers actually performed any kind of statistical process control analysis for quality in the datacenters I worked for which were huge and did work for .gov, finance and top 500 and they barely did it.
They eventually fired the poor guy as he kept proving management wrong.
We had long conversations that helped me understand technology for what it was: "La Technique: L'enjeu du siècle" was an eye opener.Very few managers understood what project management &amp; change windows were in a datacenter and usually managed to a staffing model which could only break in times of heavy load,  inducing a bigger emergency later on.Really management held the mentality of "the Maytag repair man" is who they need to hire by the business plan but the reality was a team of MacGuyver's were needed for the workload over several clients.Even educating them on vendor patch cycles and technology refresh could not break them out of scarcity = profit mentality.The admin team experienced over and over that that next month is the month where Microsoft is going to pound us with new critical patches.
Despite explaining this, management also put the work of putting unrelated project X into motion or finishing that same next month.Extensive studies about patch cycles or changes (failed, back out, succeeded) take a long view - an X bar control chart shows spikes and abnormals.
It then takes some analysis to then determine staffing levels that can handle the work on average.
It takes a huge business insight to understand why something fell outside the norm and how to handle it when it comes again.
Really I don't think the technology today can be managed to wholly eliminate outlying events like traditional manufacturing processes.
The now typical 3 year tech cycle prevents such work.It is true statistical process control can be made to lie but it is better than uneducated guessing.To me datacenters are  huge machines you can walk inside of, really no different than megawatt power generation or pharmaceutical manufacturing and ought to be better managed.
I say this in that when they go offline or do not function well an aspect of human safety and productivity is jeopardized.My favorite manager who I worked for briefly before he retired said, "Cowboy managers and admins have no place in my shop.
I want science put back into Computer Science, don't snow me with new technology.
"I agree with him.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_11_1344230.30723392</parent>
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