<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_12_09_0542246</id>
	<title><em>Saboteur</em> Launch Plagued By Problems With ATI Cards</title>
	<author>Soulskill</author>
	<datestamp>1260381480000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>An anonymous reader writes <i>"So far, <a href="http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/240/346070.page">there are over 35 pages of people posting</a> about why EA released Pandemic Studios' final game, <em>Saboteur</em>, to first the EU on December 4th and then, after knowing full well it did not work properly, to the Americas on December 8th.  They have been promising to work on a patch that is <a href="http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/51853/Serious-Saboteur-ATI-Crash-Issue-Being-Investigated-Workaround-Offered">apparently now in the QA stage of testing</a>.   It is not a small bug; rather, if you have an ATI video card and either Windows 7 or Windows Vista, the majority (90\%) of users have the game crash after the title screen.  Since the marketshare for ATI is nearly equal to that of Nvidia, and the ATI logo is adorning the front page of the <em>Saboteur</em> website, it seems like quite a large mistake to release the game in its current state."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>An anonymous reader writes " So far , there are over 35 pages of people posting about why EA released Pandemic Studios ' final game , Saboteur , to first the EU on December 4th and then , after knowing full well it did not work properly , to the Americas on December 8th .
They have been promising to work on a patch that is apparently now in the QA stage of testing .
It is not a small bug ; rather , if you have an ATI video card and either Windows 7 or Windows Vista , the majority ( 90 \ % ) of users have the game crash after the title screen .
Since the marketshare for ATI is nearly equal to that of Nvidia , and the ATI logo is adorning the front page of the Saboteur website , it seems like quite a large mistake to release the game in its current state .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An anonymous reader writes "So far, there are over 35 pages of people posting about why EA released Pandemic Studios' final game, Saboteur, to first the EU on December 4th and then, after knowing full well it did not work properly, to the Americas on December 8th.
They have been promising to work on a patch that is apparently now in the QA stage of testing.
It is not a small bug; rather, if you have an ATI video card and either Windows 7 or Windows Vista, the majority (90\%) of users have the game crash after the title screen.
Since the marketshare for ATI is nearly equal to that of Nvidia, and the ATI logo is adorning the front page of the Saboteur website, it seems like quite a large mistake to release the game in its current state.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374758</id>
	<title>ATI, in my experience, has always...</title>
	<author>dikdik</author>
	<datestamp>1260302220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><nobr> <wbr></nobr>...had wonky drivers. Especially on their more recent cards (radeon forward). I'm guessing they get their cards so cheap by not paying their driver team.

For instance, on my mulitmonitor system I used to have the Radeon VE (Win2k). I installed Wolfenstein and Jedi Knight. Wolfenstein would crash all the time, but Jedi Knight was okay. So I upgraded drivers. Then Jedi Knight didn't work, and Wolfenstein did. Bah.

Not to mention going from TV out to Monitor out and back again was a terrifying ordeal because their saveable settings "themes" don't work. Or at least didn't work up until the time I took out my *last* ATI card.

mmmmmm Parhelia....</htmltext>
<tokenext>...had wonky drivers .
Especially on their more recent cards ( radeon forward ) .
I 'm guessing they get their cards so cheap by not paying their driver team .
For instance , on my mulitmonitor system I used to have the Radeon VE ( Win2k ) .
I installed Wolfenstein and Jedi Knight .
Wolfenstein would crash all the time , but Jedi Knight was okay .
So I upgraded drivers .
Then Jedi Knight did n't work , and Wolfenstein did .
Bah . Not to mention going from TV out to Monitor out and back again was a terrifying ordeal because their saveable settings " themes " do n't work .
Or at least did n't work up until the time I took out my * last * ATI card .
mmmmmm Parhelia... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> ...had wonky drivers.
Especially on their more recent cards (radeon forward).
I'm guessing they get their cards so cheap by not paying their driver team.
For instance, on my mulitmonitor system I used to have the Radeon VE (Win2k).
I installed Wolfenstein and Jedi Knight.
Wolfenstein would crash all the time, but Jedi Knight was okay.
So I upgraded drivers.
Then Jedi Knight didn't work, and Wolfenstein did.
Bah.

Not to mention going from TV out to Monitor out and back again was a terrifying ordeal because their saveable settings "themes" don't work.
Or at least didn't work up until the time I took out my *last* ATI card.
mmmmmm Parhelia....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30378600</id>
	<title>Re:This is where consoles win</title>
	<author>BronsCon</author>
	<datestamp>1259605800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Even better, modern consoles support keyboard and mouse, for those who just can't wrap their head (or hands) around using a controller for an FPS or RTS.</p><p>The problem is that not all (as in very few) developers bother to code it into their games; which is sad, especially for games being released on both sides of the fence. If you're coding it in on one side, why take the time to rip that code out on the other?</p><p>Start writing angry letters to game developers and demand keyboard and mouse support in your console games!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Even better , modern consoles support keyboard and mouse , for those who just ca n't wrap their head ( or hands ) around using a controller for an FPS or RTS.The problem is that not all ( as in very few ) developers bother to code it into their games ; which is sad , especially for games being released on both sides of the fence .
If you 're coding it in on one side , why take the time to rip that code out on the other ? Start writing angry letters to game developers and demand keyboard and mouse support in your console games !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even better, modern consoles support keyboard and mouse, for those who just can't wrap their head (or hands) around using a controller for an FPS or RTS.The problem is that not all (as in very few) developers bother to code it into their games; which is sad, especially for games being released on both sides of the fence.
If you're coding it in on one side, why take the time to rip that code out on the other?Start writing angry letters to game developers and demand keyboard and mouse support in your console games!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375222</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375102</id>
	<title>Re:This is where consoles don't win</title>
	<author>mjwx</author>
	<datestamp>1259573400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>As an avid non-gamer, mostly because PC gaming sucks and console gaming is too costly,</p></div> </blockquote><p>

This is offset by PC games being cheaper to buy. A$10 cheaper in fact. Lets look at Modern Warfare 2 shall we, <a href="http://www.ebgames.com.au/xbox360-146755-Call-of-Duty-Modern-Warfare-2-Xbox-360" title="ebgames.com.au">Xbox 36 = A$119</a> [ebgames.com.au], <a href="http://www.ebgames.com.au/ps3-146757-Call-of-Duty-Modern-Warfare-2-PlayStation-3" title="ebgames.com.au">PS3 = A$119</a> [ebgames.com.au],<a href="http://www.ebgames.com.au/pc-146754-Call-of-Duty-Modern-Warfare-2-PC" title="ebgames.com.au">PC = A$99</a> [ebgames.com.au]. OK that's A$20 dollars cheaper but I'll argue at A$10 because I'm nice.<br> <br>

I buy two games a month, that's A$540 off the cost of my A$2000 gaming rig over two years. So that reduces the cost of the rig to A$1460. The cost of a PS3 is still $600, a new HDTV is A$1000. The price of a PS3 when I built my gaming rig in Feb was A$999. A$2000 is a top of the line gaming rig, Phenom II 955BE with a Geforce 985<br> <br>

This is of course ignoring digital distribution. I can pick up steam and Impulse games for A$50 easily.<br> <br>

Beyond price there's usefulness. After the Xbox 360 is superseded the Xbox 360 is useless, my PC can be re-rolled into a word processing/email machine.<br> <br>

There's also the question of graphics, As FarCry 2 proved the PC is still the superior graphics machine. I also get flash games for free, a superior control system, cheaper add-on packs and strategy games. In fact I just bought the latest add-on for Sins of a Solar Empire for US$10.<br> <br>

PC gaming is only more expensive for those who do not know the real costs.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As an avid non-gamer , mostly because PC gaming sucks and console gaming is too costly , This is offset by PC games being cheaper to buy .
A $ 10 cheaper in fact .
Lets look at Modern Warfare 2 shall we , Xbox 36 = A $ 119 [ ebgames.com.au ] , PS3 = A $ 119 [ ebgames.com.au ] ,PC = A $ 99 [ ebgames.com.au ] .
OK that 's A $ 20 dollars cheaper but I 'll argue at A $ 10 because I 'm nice .
I buy two games a month , that 's A $ 540 off the cost of my A $ 2000 gaming rig over two years .
So that reduces the cost of the rig to A $ 1460 .
The cost of a PS3 is still $ 600 , a new HDTV is A $ 1000 .
The price of a PS3 when I built my gaming rig in Feb was A $ 999 .
A $ 2000 is a top of the line gaming rig , Phenom II 955BE with a Geforce 985 This is of course ignoring digital distribution .
I can pick up steam and Impulse games for A $ 50 easily .
Beyond price there 's usefulness .
After the Xbox 360 is superseded the Xbox 360 is useless , my PC can be re-rolled into a word processing/email machine .
There 's also the question of graphics , As FarCry 2 proved the PC is still the superior graphics machine .
I also get flash games for free , a superior control system , cheaper add-on packs and strategy games .
In fact I just bought the latest add-on for Sins of a Solar Empire for US $ 10 .
PC gaming is only more expensive for those who do not know the real costs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As an avid non-gamer, mostly because PC gaming sucks and console gaming is too costly, 

This is offset by PC games being cheaper to buy.
A$10 cheaper in fact.
Lets look at Modern Warfare 2 shall we, Xbox 36 = A$119 [ebgames.com.au], PS3 = A$119 [ebgames.com.au],PC = A$99 [ebgames.com.au].
OK that's A$20 dollars cheaper but I'll argue at A$10 because I'm nice.
I buy two games a month, that's A$540 off the cost of my A$2000 gaming rig over two years.
So that reduces the cost of the rig to A$1460.
The cost of a PS3 is still $600, a new HDTV is A$1000.
The price of a PS3 when I built my gaming rig in Feb was A$999.
A$2000 is a top of the line gaming rig, Phenom II 955BE with a Geforce 985 

This is of course ignoring digital distribution.
I can pick up steam and Impulse games for A$50 easily.
Beyond price there's usefulness.
After the Xbox 360 is superseded the Xbox 360 is useless, my PC can be re-rolled into a word processing/email machine.
There's also the question of graphics, As FarCry 2 proved the PC is still the superior graphics machine.
I also get flash games for free, a superior control system, cheaper add-on packs and strategy games.
In fact I just bought the latest add-on for Sins of a Solar Empire for US$10.
PC gaming is only more expensive for those who do not know the real costs.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374654</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30376606</id>
	<title>Re:"EA released Pandemic Studios' final game"</title>
	<author>CronoCloud</author>
	<datestamp>1259593860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ditto, but the game was also released on the N64.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ditto , but the game was also released on the N64 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ditto, but the game was also released on the N64.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375050</id>
	<title>Re:This is where consoles win</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Anybody who claims that consoles "just work" obviously haven't tried loading Borderlands on PS3 - it takes 3 hours to download and install all the patches to make it work... besides, playing a first person shooter on a console is like eating soup with fork - sure you can do it, but it's awkward as hell and will take you forever to get used to. And once consoles do everything the PC's can do - they will just become PC's and then the point is moot anyways.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Anybody who claims that consoles " just work " obviously have n't tried loading Borderlands on PS3 - it takes 3 hours to download and install all the patches to make it work... besides , playing a first person shooter on a console is like eating soup with fork - sure you can do it , but it 's awkward as hell and will take you forever to get used to .
And once consoles do everything the PC 's can do - they will just become PC 's and then the point is moot anyways .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anybody who claims that consoles "just work" obviously haven't tried loading Borderlands on PS3 - it takes 3 hours to download and install all the patches to make it work... besides, playing a first person shooter on a console is like eating soup with fork - sure you can do it, but it's awkward as hell and will take you forever to get used to.
And once consoles do everything the PC's can do - they will just become PC's and then the point is moot anyways.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374654</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30381854</id>
	<title>Re:This is where consoles win</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259579700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; From a non-biased GAMER who's still sees both sides</p><p>Thank you for the warning.  Now I can safely ignore the rest of your post<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; From a non-biased GAMER who 's still sees both sidesThank you for the warning .
Now I can safely ignore the rest of your post : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; From a non-biased GAMER who's still sees both sidesThank you for the warning.
Now I can safely ignore the rest of your post :)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374974</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375432</id>
	<title>Re:ATI bugs...</title>
	<author>Jesus\_666</author>
	<datestamp>1259579100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Then again, I haven't heard of a notebook being rendered useless due to ATI's inability to properly specify the package for their GPU. That very thing happened to me with a NVidia IGP. Experiences like that or NVidia's horrible OS X CUDA drivers (that may or may not work and may or may not negatively affect regular rendering) tend to make one suspicious of the quality of their offering.<br>
<br>
Note that I didn't have many issues with their discrete graphics cards under Windows and Linux but that was before I used Mac notebooks almost exclusively for a while; plus, my current desktop's ATI IGP (didn't yet have the time and money to go discrete) also performs without any issue.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Then again , I have n't heard of a notebook being rendered useless due to ATI 's inability to properly specify the package for their GPU .
That very thing happened to me with a NVidia IGP .
Experiences like that or NVidia 's horrible OS X CUDA drivers ( that may or may not work and may or may not negatively affect regular rendering ) tend to make one suspicious of the quality of their offering .
Note that I did n't have many issues with their discrete graphics cards under Windows and Linux but that was before I used Mac notebooks almost exclusively for a while ; plus , my current desktop 's ATI IGP ( did n't yet have the time and money to go discrete ) also performs without any issue .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then again, I haven't heard of a notebook being rendered useless due to ATI's inability to properly specify the package for their GPU.
That very thing happened to me with a NVidia IGP.
Experiences like that or NVidia's horrible OS X CUDA drivers (that may or may not work and may or may not negatively affect regular rendering) tend to make one suspicious of the quality of their offering.
Note that I didn't have many issues with their discrete graphics cards under Windows and Linux but that was before I used Mac notebooks almost exclusively for a while; plus, my current desktop's ATI IGP (didn't yet have the time and money to go discrete) also performs without any issue.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374550</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374700</id>
	<title>Re:ATI bugs...</title>
	<author>cbhacking</author>
	<datestamp>1260301560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Funny you should bring up driver quality; the latest nVidia driver update for my Win7 laptop (9600M GS) broke suspend (to RAM) and an older one (for a Vista laptop, 7600 GO) broke hibernate. I'm used to this kind of garbage with proprietary drivers on Linux, but on Windows I really expect better.</p><p>Furthermore, during Vista's beta period, ATI already had solid, functional, stable, and fast drivers. By comparison, at least for the GeForce 7600 GO in my older laptop, it was some 6 months <b>after</b> Vista RTM before I could get a driver that would give me decent performance (the drivers at release ran at about 40\% the proper framerate) and features (many things, such as scale but maintain aspect ratio, were unavailable) without using hideously unstable beta drivers (that would crash every time I switched out of a full-screen 3D app). Even once drivers were available, they were initially only for desktop cards (modifying the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.INF, or using downloads from laptopvideo2go.com, were workarounds that shouldn't have been required).</p><p>I will grant you that if a game is going to have problems with ATI or nVidia graphics, it's more likely to have a problem with ATI. However, in light of nVidia drivers managing to break parts of the operating system, I really don't think they can legitimately be considered better than ATI. Cost for performance, especially in the mid-range, they are also much worse - and in my experience you really don't get what you pay for there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Funny you should bring up driver quality ; the latest nVidia driver update for my Win7 laptop ( 9600M GS ) broke suspend ( to RAM ) and an older one ( for a Vista laptop , 7600 GO ) broke hibernate .
I 'm used to this kind of garbage with proprietary drivers on Linux , but on Windows I really expect better.Furthermore , during Vista 's beta period , ATI already had solid , functional , stable , and fast drivers .
By comparison , at least for the GeForce 7600 GO in my older laptop , it was some 6 months after Vista RTM before I could get a driver that would give me decent performance ( the drivers at release ran at about 40 \ % the proper framerate ) and features ( many things , such as scale but maintain aspect ratio , were unavailable ) without using hideously unstable beta drivers ( that would crash every time I switched out of a full-screen 3D app ) .
Even once drivers were available , they were initially only for desktop cards ( modifying the .INF , or using downloads from laptopvideo2go.com , were workarounds that should n't have been required ) .I will grant you that if a game is going to have problems with ATI or nVidia graphics , it 's more likely to have a problem with ATI .
However , in light of nVidia drivers managing to break parts of the operating system , I really do n't think they can legitimately be considered better than ATI .
Cost for performance , especially in the mid-range , they are also much worse - and in my experience you really do n't get what you pay for there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Funny you should bring up driver quality; the latest nVidia driver update for my Win7 laptop (9600M GS) broke suspend (to RAM) and an older one (for a Vista laptop, 7600 GO) broke hibernate.
I'm used to this kind of garbage with proprietary drivers on Linux, but on Windows I really expect better.Furthermore, during Vista's beta period, ATI already had solid, functional, stable, and fast drivers.
By comparison, at least for the GeForce 7600 GO in my older laptop, it was some 6 months after Vista RTM before I could get a driver that would give me decent performance (the drivers at release ran at about 40\% the proper framerate) and features (many things, such as scale but maintain aspect ratio, were unavailable) without using hideously unstable beta drivers (that would crash every time I switched out of a full-screen 3D app).
Even once drivers were available, they were initially only for desktop cards (modifying the .INF, or using downloads from laptopvideo2go.com, were workarounds that shouldn't have been required).I will grant you that if a game is going to have problems with ATI or nVidia graphics, it's more likely to have a problem with ATI.
However, in light of nVidia drivers managing to break parts of the operating system, I really don't think they can legitimately be considered better than ATI.
Cost for performance, especially in the mid-range, they are also much worse - and in my experience you really don't get what you pay for there.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374550</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374896</id>
	<title>Re:Saboteur, hey?</title>
	<author>arQon</author>
	<datestamp>1259613120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For all that "the industry is being pushed", it's not ALWAYS the game developers' fault. For a "real" game (ie "not a crappy movie tie-in generic copypaste with new art") you can easily go through dozens of driver revisions during years of development, all of which work fine, and then have a new set come out after you ship the master which suddenly doesn't work with your game.</p><p>ATI, much though I love their hardware, border on completely indifferent to driver bugs, and nvidia aren't really that much better. Unless your game is a "showpiece" for their hardware, they simply don't care if something doesn't work the way it's supposed to or even has catastrophic errors in it. Case in point, every ATI driver release from April through OCTOBER this year *hemorrhaged* memory if you used VBOs a certain way. 6 months to fix a bug that critical is pretty miserable.<br>Yes, modern graphics drivers are horrifically complex, but still...</p><p>Sometimes it works the other way too. There's a tiny little bug in Quake3 that can make an invalid GL call at times: it "worked" for 7 years because the drivers gracefully ignored it, then suddenly started to cause *massive* slowdowns on nvidia cards (from 400+ fps to 100). Technically, it's id's "fault", but it's pretty hard to blame them for it - or to blame nvidia for the drivers going into Sulk Mode, since it IS an invalid call.</p><p>That's an extreme example, but the point is that you're dependent on drivers that you don't "own" for your game to work, they frequently don't, and you've got no control over them at all.<br>If you're id / Epic / Valve, and pushing a AAA title that will prompt players to upgrade their cards, you can doubtless get someone at the IHV to look into the problems. If you're at a company like Pandemic that basically folded before even finishing the game, good luck with that even if you actually have any developers left to try to get a fix or hack up a workaround if a driver rev pulls the rug out from under you.</p><p>Of course, the developers COULD have been so completely half-assed that they didn't run a single build on an ATI card, in which case they should indeed be beaten to death with cluebats.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For all that " the industry is being pushed " , it 's not ALWAYS the game developers ' fault .
For a " real " game ( ie " not a crappy movie tie-in generic copypaste with new art " ) you can easily go through dozens of driver revisions during years of development , all of which work fine , and then have a new set come out after you ship the master which suddenly does n't work with your game.ATI , much though I love their hardware , border on completely indifferent to driver bugs , and nvidia are n't really that much better .
Unless your game is a " showpiece " for their hardware , they simply do n't care if something does n't work the way it 's supposed to or even has catastrophic errors in it .
Case in point , every ATI driver release from April through OCTOBER this year * hemorrhaged * memory if you used VBOs a certain way .
6 months to fix a bug that critical is pretty miserable.Yes , modern graphics drivers are horrifically complex , but still...Sometimes it works the other way too .
There 's a tiny little bug in Quake3 that can make an invalid GL call at times : it " worked " for 7 years because the drivers gracefully ignored it , then suddenly started to cause * massive * slowdowns on nvidia cards ( from 400 + fps to 100 ) .
Technically , it 's id 's " fault " , but it 's pretty hard to blame them for it - or to blame nvidia for the drivers going into Sulk Mode , since it IS an invalid call.That 's an extreme example , but the point is that you 're dependent on drivers that you do n't " own " for your game to work , they frequently do n't , and you 've got no control over them at all.If you 're id / Epic / Valve , and pushing a AAA title that will prompt players to upgrade their cards , you can doubtless get someone at the IHV to look into the problems .
If you 're at a company like Pandemic that basically folded before even finishing the game , good luck with that even if you actually have any developers left to try to get a fix or hack up a workaround if a driver rev pulls the rug out from under you.Of course , the developers COULD have been so completely half-assed that they did n't run a single build on an ATI card , in which case they should indeed be beaten to death with cluebats .
: P</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For all that "the industry is being pushed", it's not ALWAYS the game developers' fault.
For a "real" game (ie "not a crappy movie tie-in generic copypaste with new art") you can easily go through dozens of driver revisions during years of development, all of which work fine, and then have a new set come out after you ship the master which suddenly doesn't work with your game.ATI, much though I love their hardware, border on completely indifferent to driver bugs, and nvidia aren't really that much better.
Unless your game is a "showpiece" for their hardware, they simply don't care if something doesn't work the way it's supposed to or even has catastrophic errors in it.
Case in point, every ATI driver release from April through OCTOBER this year *hemorrhaged* memory if you used VBOs a certain way.
6 months to fix a bug that critical is pretty miserable.Yes, modern graphics drivers are horrifically complex, but still...Sometimes it works the other way too.
There's a tiny little bug in Quake3 that can make an invalid GL call at times: it "worked" for 7 years because the drivers gracefully ignored it, then suddenly started to cause *massive* slowdowns on nvidia cards (from 400+ fps to 100).
Technically, it's id's "fault", but it's pretty hard to blame them for it - or to blame nvidia for the drivers going into Sulk Mode, since it IS an invalid call.That's an extreme example, but the point is that you're dependent on drivers that you don't "own" for your game to work, they frequently don't, and you've got no control over them at all.If you're id / Epic / Valve, and pushing a AAA title that will prompt players to upgrade their cards, you can doubtless get someone at the IHV to look into the problems.
If you're at a company like Pandemic that basically folded before even finishing the game, good luck with that even if you actually have any developers left to try to get a fix or hack up a workaround if a driver rev pulls the rug out from under you.Of course, the developers COULD have been so completely half-assed that they didn't run a single build on an ATI card, in which case they should indeed be beaten to death with cluebats.
:P</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374530</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30379492</id>
	<title>Re:Wait a few months to buy games</title>
	<author>DavidTC</author>
	<datestamp>1259610780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yup, me too. My general rule is six months, in fact. I just bought Fallout 3 GOTY, for example.</p><p>
NWN is an awesome game, but I can understand why someone who got the original buggy release returned it.</p><p>
I'm especially leery of Bioware first releases, especially because of NWN...it's why I'm waiting to buy Dragon Age for another few months.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yup , me too .
My general rule is six months , in fact .
I just bought Fallout 3 GOTY , for example .
NWN is an awesome game , but I can understand why someone who got the original buggy release returned it .
I 'm especially leery of Bioware first releases , especially because of NWN...it 's why I 'm waiting to buy Dragon Age for another few months .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yup, me too.
My general rule is six months, in fact.
I just bought Fallout 3 GOTY, for example.
NWN is an awesome game, but I can understand why someone who got the original buggy release returned it.
I'm especially leery of Bioware first releases, especially because of NWN...it's why I'm waiting to buy Dragon Age for another few months.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375022</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30378856</id>
	<title>Re:"EA released Pandemic Studios' final game"</title>
	<author>JDeane</author>
	<datestamp>1259607300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Honestly one of the first games I ever pirated....</p><p>It's a minor miracle that I ever bought another piece of software after that. lol</p><p>Thank god I downloaded it instead of buying it...</p><p>But it was so bad it was almost funny lol</p><p>Reminds me of that game Shadow Warrior... now that was a great game.</p><p>At least I buy my software these days but I have to say its getting easier to avoid the POS's like that one.</p><p>Favorite tool these days for reviews Youtube.  The audio sucks and sometimes people film like they have the shakes from withdrawal symptoms but at least the review is honest...</p><p>On the main topic, this game did not look any good to me anyway so not a huge loss.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Honestly one of the first games I ever pirated....It 's a minor miracle that I ever bought another piece of software after that .
lolThank god I downloaded it instead of buying it...But it was so bad it was almost funny lolReminds me of that game Shadow Warrior... now that was a great game.At least I buy my software these days but I have to say its getting easier to avoid the POS 's like that one.Favorite tool these days for reviews Youtube .
The audio sucks and sometimes people film like they have the shakes from withdrawal symptoms but at least the review is honest...On the main topic , this game did not look any good to me anyway so not a huge loss .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Honestly one of the first games I ever pirated....It's a minor miracle that I ever bought another piece of software after that.
lolThank god I downloaded it instead of buying it...But it was so bad it was almost funny lolReminds me of that game Shadow Warrior... now that was a great game.At least I buy my software these days but I have to say its getting easier to avoid the POS's like that one.Favorite tool these days for reviews Youtube.
The audio sucks and sometimes people film like they have the shakes from withdrawal symptoms but at least the review is honest...On the main topic, this game did not look any good to me anyway so not a huge loss.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374816</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375148</id>
	<title>Re:ATI bugs...</title>
	<author>dunkelfalke</author>
	<datestamp>1259574300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I use ATI cards since Mach64 was introduced, with some short detours to Nvidia, 3dfx, and PowerVR. I was even an early adopter of the ATI Rage Fury and I never had a single problem with ATI drivers. Never ever.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I use ATI cards since Mach64 was introduced , with some short detours to Nvidia , 3dfx , and PowerVR .
I was even an early adopter of the ATI Rage Fury and I never had a single problem with ATI drivers .
Never ever .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I use ATI cards since Mach64 was introduced, with some short detours to Nvidia, 3dfx, and PowerVR.
I was even an early adopter of the ATI Rage Fury and I never had a single problem with ATI drivers.
Never ever.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374550</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30376514</id>
	<title>Yawn</title>
	<author>Akita24</author>
	<datestamp>1259593260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>ZOMG! EA shipped a game that was not ready for prime time! OH NOES!!!!

Give me a break. The day EA ships something that doesn't suck it'll be a vacuum cleaner. I quit giving them my money a long time ago after waiting months if not years for them to fix crap that should never have shipped that way.

Oh, and for the apologists: The shipped that crap hugely broken without caring about their customers. And you want the customers to "understand" how difficult life is for poor little EA games? Get a life. I'll give a shit about their problems in the gaming industry just as soon as they show an iota of concern for their customers. We don't owe them shit other than the profit (that BTW they already got from thousands of users for their broke-dick product).</htmltext>
<tokenext>ZOMG !
EA shipped a game that was not ready for prime time !
OH NOES ! ! ! !
Give me a break .
The day EA ships something that does n't suck it 'll be a vacuum cleaner .
I quit giving them my money a long time ago after waiting months if not years for them to fix crap that should never have shipped that way .
Oh , and for the apologists : The shipped that crap hugely broken without caring about their customers .
And you want the customers to " understand " how difficult life is for poor little EA games ?
Get a life .
I 'll give a shit about their problems in the gaming industry just as soon as they show an iota of concern for their customers .
We do n't owe them shit other than the profit ( that BTW they already got from thousands of users for their broke-dick product ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>ZOMG!
EA shipped a game that was not ready for prime time!
OH NOES!!!!
Give me a break.
The day EA ships something that doesn't suck it'll be a vacuum cleaner.
I quit giving them my money a long time ago after waiting months if not years for them to fix crap that should never have shipped that way.
Oh, and for the apologists: The shipped that crap hugely broken without caring about their customers.
And you want the customers to "understand" how difficult life is for poor little EA games?
Get a life.
I'll give a shit about their problems in the gaming industry just as soon as they show an iota of concern for their customers.
We don't owe them shit other than the profit (that BTW they already got from thousands of users for their broke-dick product).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374920</id>
	<title>Re:ATI bugs...</title>
	<author>garry\_g</author>
	<datestamp>1259613540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So, your card is "working flawlessly", and yet you still have to update it twice per week? Wonder why<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><p>On I side note, the last nVidia I had was a mayor PITA<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... several games (actually, all, which isn't many) always froze up within a couple minutes of gameplay, unless I cleanly rebooted my XP machine first<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... (and that was after a fresh install, too!) Switched to an ATI card which was less power-hungry, only slightly slower, passively cooled, and cheaper, and haven't had any problems since<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and that is without the need to update the drivers constantly in the hope if finally getting the stuff to work<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So , your card is " working flawlessly " , and yet you still have to update it twice per week ?
Wonder why ...On I side note , the last nVidia I had was a mayor PITA ... several games ( actually , all , which is n't many ) always froze up within a couple minutes of gameplay , unless I cleanly rebooted my XP machine first ... ( and that was after a fresh install , too !
) Switched to an ATI card which was less power-hungry , only slightly slower , passively cooled , and cheaper , and have n't had any problems since ... and that is without the need to update the drivers constantly in the hope if finally getting the stuff to work .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, your card is "working flawlessly", and yet you still have to update it twice per week?
Wonder why ...On I side note, the last nVidia I had was a mayor PITA ... several games (actually, all, which isn't many) always froze up within a couple minutes of gameplay, unless I cleanly rebooted my XP machine first ... (and that was after a fresh install, too!
) Switched to an ATI card which was less power-hungry, only slightly slower, passively cooled, and cheaper, and haven't had any problems since ... and that is without the need to update the drivers constantly in the hope if finally getting the stuff to work ...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374550</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30377272</id>
	<title>Re:This is where consoles win</title>
	<author>jgtg32a</author>
	<datestamp>1259598480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Your post is 100\% troll I have no idea why people are marking it Insightful or arguing in your favor.  The backwards compatibility is being phased out, PS3 lost the backwards compatibility shortly after launch.  It's because both MS and Sony quickly realized that if their systems aren't backwards compatible they can get people to repurchase the game that they already own.<br> <br>You might want to brush up on the design goals of DX10, IIRC the only real graphical improvement was something to do with shadows (blame Nvidia for that).  Everything else that they did was cleaning up the API, its much nicer to program in.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Your post is 100 \ % troll I have no idea why people are marking it Insightful or arguing in your favor .
The backwards compatibility is being phased out , PS3 lost the backwards compatibility shortly after launch .
It 's because both MS and Sony quickly realized that if their systems are n't backwards compatible they can get people to repurchase the game that they already own .
You might want to brush up on the design goals of DX10 , IIRC the only real graphical improvement was something to do with shadows ( blame Nvidia for that ) .
Everything else that they did was cleaning up the API , its much nicer to program in .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your post is 100\% troll I have no idea why people are marking it Insightful or arguing in your favor.
The backwards compatibility is being phased out, PS3 lost the backwards compatibility shortly after launch.
It's because both MS and Sony quickly realized that if their systems aren't backwards compatible they can get people to repurchase the game that they already own.
You might want to brush up on the design goals of DX10, IIRC the only real graphical improvement was something to do with shadows (blame Nvidia for that).
Everything else that they did was cleaning up the API, its much nicer to program in.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374654</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374756</id>
	<title>Wasn't that the exact experience with GTA SA?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260302220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I friend of mine bought it, back then. And it hat not one, not two, not three, but <em>four</em> points in the loading of the game, where it could crash. Which means that pretty much everyone got into one.</p><p>And then, on all nVidia cards, all triangles were messed up. With one of the 3 points of each triangle being wayy off in its position, moving all over the screen. Like a ton of spikes.</p><p>There was not a single comment from Rockstar. Let alone a patch.</p><p>And now for the funny part: I loaded it of bittorrent, and as always, I went to gamecopyworld.com, to look for a crack.<br>They not only had more than one working crack. No. They hay patches for every single of those four crash points, *and* the nVidia bug!</p><p>I couldn&rsquo;t hold back to laugh at him. ^^</p><p>With GTA 4 it was not much better. Right from the start, the input lag was around 3 <em>seconds</em>! The intro was full of weird graphical errors. And the game still runs <em>slow as hell</em>, even on computers that have the power to run a game with those weak graphics and physics twice or thrice!<br>18 fps at 1024x786 with a Radeon 4850? Are you fuckin&rsquo; kiddin&rsquo; me??</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I friend of mine bought it , back then .
And it hat not one , not two , not three , but four points in the loading of the game , where it could crash .
Which means that pretty much everyone got into one.And then , on all nVidia cards , all triangles were messed up .
With one of the 3 points of each triangle being wayy off in its position , moving all over the screen .
Like a ton of spikes.There was not a single comment from Rockstar .
Let alone a patch.And now for the funny part : I loaded it of bittorrent , and as always , I went to gamecopyworld.com , to look for a crack.They not only had more than one working crack .
No. They hay patches for every single of those four crash points , * and * the nVidia bug ! I couldn    t hold back to laugh at him .
^ ^ With GTA 4 it was not much better .
Right from the start , the input lag was around 3 seconds !
The intro was full of weird graphical errors .
And the game still runs slow as hell , even on computers that have the power to run a game with those weak graphics and physics twice or thrice ! 18 fps at 1024x786 with a Radeon 4850 ?
Are you fuckin    kiddin    me ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I friend of mine bought it, back then.
And it hat not one, not two, not three, but four points in the loading of the game, where it could crash.
Which means that pretty much everyone got into one.And then, on all nVidia cards, all triangles were messed up.
With one of the 3 points of each triangle being wayy off in its position, moving all over the screen.
Like a ton of spikes.There was not a single comment from Rockstar.
Let alone a patch.And now for the funny part: I loaded it of bittorrent, and as always, I went to gamecopyworld.com, to look for a crack.They not only had more than one working crack.
No. They hay patches for every single of those four crash points, *and* the nVidia bug!I couldn’t hold back to laugh at him.
^^With GTA 4 it was not much better.
Right from the start, the input lag was around 3 seconds!
The intro was full of weird graphical errors.
And the game still runs slow as hell, even on computers that have the power to run a game with those weak graphics and physics twice or thrice!18 fps at 1024x786 with a Radeon 4850?
Are you fuckin’ kiddin’ me?
?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375036</id>
	<title>What Pandemic?</title>
	<author>wiedzmin</author>
	<datestamp>1259572260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Patches? What patches? In order to release the patch you would actually have to have the developers to write it and since <a href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-10797\_3-10400753-235.html" title="cnet.com" rel="nofollow">EA shut down Pandemic studios and fired its 200 employees</a> [cnet.com] shortly before they released the game... well you can draw the conclusions on whether there will be any patches any time soon.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Patches ?
What patches ?
In order to release the patch you would actually have to have the developers to write it and since EA shut down Pandemic studios and fired its 200 employees [ cnet.com ] shortly before they released the game... well you can draw the conclusions on whether there will be any patches any time soon .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Patches?
What patches?
In order to release the patch you would actually have to have the developers to write it and since EA shut down Pandemic studios and fired its 200 employees [cnet.com] shortly before they released the game... well you can draw the conclusions on whether there will be any patches any time soon.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375012</id>
	<title>EA? Bugs? UNPOSSIBLE</title>
	<author>rebelwarlock</author>
	<datestamp>1259572080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's not like EA is any stranger to releasing games with major issues that prevent a large chunk of their customers from playing them. EA is a huge company, and not every subdivision has people who type with their fingers. Many of them lick the keyboard.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not like EA is any stranger to releasing games with major issues that prevent a large chunk of their customers from playing them .
EA is a huge company , and not every subdivision has people who type with their fingers .
Many of them lick the keyboard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not like EA is any stranger to releasing games with major issues that prevent a large chunk of their customers from playing them.
EA is a huge company, and not every subdivision has people who type with their fingers.
Many of them lick the keyboard.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375332</id>
	<title>Re:ATI bugs...</title>
	<author>MacGyver2210</author>
	<datestamp>1259577480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Amen to that. NVidia &gt; ATI (price, quality, and reliability).

Who you fly for in EVE?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Amen to that .
NVidia &gt; ATI ( price , quality , and reliability ) .
Who you fly for in EVE ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amen to that.
NVidia &gt; ATI (price, quality, and reliability).
Who you fly for in EVE?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374550</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374648</id>
	<title>I bet I know who the "Saboteur" is...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260300840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's Nvidia!</p><p>On a serious note, 29\% to 63\% market share is not even close to "nearly equal".</p><p>http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's Nvidia ! On a serious note , 29 \ % to 63 \ % market share is not even close to " nearly equal " .http : //store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's Nvidia!On a serious note, 29\% to 63\% market share is not even close to "nearly equal".http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375912</id>
	<title>Re:Saboteur, hey?</title>
	<author>ExKoopaTroopa</author>
	<datestamp>1259586540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I also had enough of this sort of bugs, so I gave up on PC gaming, bought an Xbox and have never stopped playing since</htmltext>
<tokenext>I also had enough of this sort of bugs , so I gave up on PC gaming , bought an Xbox and have never stopped playing since</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I also had enough of this sort of bugs, so I gave up on PC gaming, bought an Xbox and have never stopped playing since</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374530</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30376434</id>
	<title>Temporary workaround</title>
	<author>BForrester</author>
	<datestamp>1259592660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The game is playable (low FPS) with ATI cards if you revert the processor to single core, either through task manager / process affinity, or right at boot with (e.g.) the msconfig utility.</p><p>Of course, you're better off exercising some patience and waiting until a proper fix comes out than running with a crippled game.  The game isn't exactly *gorgeous*, but running at 800X600 and all settings at minimum is a surefire way to sabotage the experience</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The game is playable ( low FPS ) with ATI cards if you revert the processor to single core , either through task manager / process affinity , or right at boot with ( e.g .
) the msconfig utility.Of course , you 're better off exercising some patience and waiting until a proper fix comes out than running with a crippled game .
The game is n't exactly * gorgeous * , but running at 800X600 and all settings at minimum is a surefire way to sabotage the experience</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The game is playable (low FPS) with ATI cards if you revert the processor to single core, either through task manager / process affinity, or right at boot with (e.g.
) the msconfig utility.Of course, you're better off exercising some patience and waiting until a proper fix comes out than running with a crippled game.
The game isn't exactly *gorgeous*, but running at 800X600 and all settings at minimum is a surefire way to sabotage the experience</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374974</id>
	<title>Re:This is where consoles win</title>
	<author>orlanz</author>
	<datestamp>1259614680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From a non-biased GAMER who's still sees both sides, I would say consoles (as an experience) today suck!</p><p>Consoles today are basically the worst of the PC world and the worst of the old console world.</p><p>Consoles used to be about highly polished games that the developers (not the artists &amp; marketing) put a lot of work into.  Now a days with the net connection, most games deliver as betas (like the PCs), and then after 2 updates become... ok.  The graphics are better, but the controls, storylines, action, and overall game play has gone down the crapper.  We have games that are cross platform on the PSP, Xbox360, and PS3!  So those games basically cater to the lowest common denominator of all three and not take advantage of any specifics.  Xbox360 ports to the PS3 look like crap (I am looking at you EA)!</p><p>The worst of the console world... the price tag.  Cause its on a "console," there is a huge upfront price tag.  And with the net connection, you get the rest of the game delivered via additional charges!  There is also the bombardment of marketing (which I think is the major reason for the price tags) that drone on and on about the latest upcoming game that is either a sequel or must have new concept.  Which of course rarely lives up to the hype.  Not to mention, we mostly lose that big benefit of consoles... local coop play.  With the net, every bloody stupid game wants you to connect to some random 12 year old to play what should be local coop, or a rip off of counterstrike.</p><p>All consoles today are: locked down, controlled, 2 year old proprietary hardware... PCs!  The only advantage is the massive number of games made for it (cause its a great way to lock in customers).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>From a non-biased GAMER who 's still sees both sides , I would say consoles ( as an experience ) today suck ! Consoles today are basically the worst of the PC world and the worst of the old console world.Consoles used to be about highly polished games that the developers ( not the artists &amp; marketing ) put a lot of work into .
Now a days with the net connection , most games deliver as betas ( like the PCs ) , and then after 2 updates become... ok. The graphics are better , but the controls , storylines , action , and overall game play has gone down the crapper .
We have games that are cross platform on the PSP , Xbox360 , and PS3 !
So those games basically cater to the lowest common denominator of all three and not take advantage of any specifics .
Xbox360 ports to the PS3 look like crap ( I am looking at you EA ) ! The worst of the console world... the price tag .
Cause its on a " console , " there is a huge upfront price tag .
And with the net connection , you get the rest of the game delivered via additional charges !
There is also the bombardment of marketing ( which I think is the major reason for the price tags ) that drone on and on about the latest upcoming game that is either a sequel or must have new concept .
Which of course rarely lives up to the hype .
Not to mention , we mostly lose that big benefit of consoles... local coop play .
With the net , every bloody stupid game wants you to connect to some random 12 year old to play what should be local coop , or a rip off of counterstrike.All consoles today are : locked down , controlled , 2 year old proprietary hardware... PCs ! The only advantage is the massive number of games made for it ( cause its a great way to lock in customers ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From a non-biased GAMER who's still sees both sides, I would say consoles (as an experience) today suck!Consoles today are basically the worst of the PC world and the worst of the old console world.Consoles used to be about highly polished games that the developers (not the artists &amp; marketing) put a lot of work into.
Now a days with the net connection, most games deliver as betas (like the PCs), and then after 2 updates become... ok.  The graphics are better, but the controls, storylines, action, and overall game play has gone down the crapper.
We have games that are cross platform on the PSP, Xbox360, and PS3!
So those games basically cater to the lowest common denominator of all three and not take advantage of any specifics.
Xbox360 ports to the PS3 look like crap (I am looking at you EA)!The worst of the console world... the price tag.
Cause its on a "console," there is a huge upfront price tag.
And with the net connection, you get the rest of the game delivered via additional charges!
There is also the bombardment of marketing (which I think is the major reason for the price tags) that drone on and on about the latest upcoming game that is either a sequel or must have new concept.
Which of course rarely lives up to the hype.
Not to mention, we mostly lose that big benefit of consoles... local coop play.
With the net, every bloody stupid game wants you to connect to some random 12 year old to play what should be local coop, or a rip off of counterstrike.All consoles today are: locked down, controlled, 2 year old proprietary hardware... PCs!  The only advantage is the massive number of games made for it (cause its a great way to lock in customers).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374654</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374496</id>
	<title>Saboteur, hey?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260298920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sounds like they've been sabotaged.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds like they 've been sabotaged .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds like they've been sabotaged.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375472</id>
	<title>Re:ATI bugs...</title>
	<author>bcmm</author>
	<datestamp>1259579580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sorry for the doublepost, but I should note that nvidia deserves credit for keeping their closed driver up-to-date, and fixing issues quickly when KDE4 turned up bottlenecks in some rarely-used features. However, the future does not lie in closed-source drivers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry for the doublepost , but I should note that nvidia deserves credit for keeping their closed driver up-to-date , and fixing issues quickly when KDE4 turned up bottlenecks in some rarely-used features .
However , the future does not lie in closed-source drivers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry for the doublepost, but I should note that nvidia deserves credit for keeping their closed driver up-to-date, and fixing issues quickly when KDE4 turned up bottlenecks in some rarely-used features.
However, the future does not lie in closed-source drivers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374684</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374530</id>
	<title>Re:Saboteur, hey?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260299340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I get very tired of these sorts of bugs. I had experienced a title screen bug for Fallout3. After spending 4 hours trying to get it to work, I just gave up and returned the game.<br>
<br>
It seemed that I was not alone either. Unfortunately, the games industry is being pushed by customer demand and sabotaged by shrinking budgets from the corporate side. In the end the only thing that can be cut from the budget is QA, which is a fatal mistake.<br>
<br>
Worse still is places where you cannot return your product. Talk about non efficate product.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I get very tired of these sorts of bugs .
I had experienced a title screen bug for Fallout3 .
After spending 4 hours trying to get it to work , I just gave up and returned the game .
It seemed that I was not alone either .
Unfortunately , the games industry is being pushed by customer demand and sabotaged by shrinking budgets from the corporate side .
In the end the only thing that can be cut from the budget is QA , which is a fatal mistake .
Worse still is places where you can not return your product .
Talk about non efficate product .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I get very tired of these sorts of bugs.
I had experienced a title screen bug for Fallout3.
After spending 4 hours trying to get it to work, I just gave up and returned the game.
It seemed that I was not alone either.
Unfortunately, the games industry is being pushed by customer demand and sabotaged by shrinking budgets from the corporate side.
In the end the only thing that can be cut from the budget is QA, which is a fatal mistake.
Worse still is places where you cannot return your product.
Talk about non efficate product.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374496</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30376880</id>
	<title>Proper blame?</title>
	<author>Sparr0</author>
	<datestamp>1259595960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Has anyone even considered the possibility that the blame here lies with Microsoft or ATI?  It bothers me how most Windows users blame an application when a library or driver is at fault.  Just because only one app crashes doesn't mean that app is broken.  If MS says some\_rare\_function() works, and it really causes one game to crash on particular systems, that's MS's fault.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Has anyone even considered the possibility that the blame here lies with Microsoft or ATI ?
It bothers me how most Windows users blame an application when a library or driver is at fault .
Just because only one app crashes does n't mean that app is broken .
If MS says some \ _rare \ _function ( ) works , and it really causes one game to crash on particular systems , that 's MS 's fault .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Has anyone even considered the possibility that the blame here lies with Microsoft or ATI?
It bothers me how most Windows users blame an application when a library or driver is at fault.
Just because only one app crashes doesn't mean that app is broken.
If MS says some\_rare\_function() works, and it really causes one game to crash on particular systems, that's MS's fault.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374544</id>
	<title>That's no promotion, it's a warning label</title>
	<author>SuperKendall</author>
	<datestamp>1260299520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Like the surgeon general of gaming telling you to stay away if you have ATI...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Like the surgeon general of gaming telling you to stay away if you have ATI.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Like the surgeon general of gaming telling you to stay away if you have ATI...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374580</id>
	<title>XP is too popular</title>
	<author>Parallax48</author>
	<datestamp>1260299940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It sounds like the developers choose to use the fastest and most reliable Windows version available for development.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It sounds like the developers choose to use the fastest and most reliable Windows version available for development .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It sounds like the developers choose to use the fastest and most reliable Windows version available for development.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30380200</id>
	<title>Re:Saboteur, hey?</title>
	<author>JodiJodiJodi</author>
	<datestamp>1259571840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Unless your game is a "showpiece" for their hardware, they simply don't care if something doesn't work the way it's supposed to or even has catastrophic errors in it. Case in point, every ATI driver release from April through OCTOBER this year *hemorrhaged* memory if you used VBOs a certain way. 6 months to fix a bug that critical is pretty miserable.</p></div><p>When I was working on graphics drivers, I would normally fix driver bugs as soon as a game was released (or even earlier if the game developer relation guys got hold of betas). However due to the release cycle of the actual driver itself (build, regression testing, management, etc.) the public wouldn't see the fix for up to 3 months after I committed the change. Yup, Frustrating.<br>
<br>
Secondly, a-lot of game devs just did stuff the wrong way, and depended on the undefined behaviour of the graphics drivers to get stuff done. Bad coder! No twinky!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless your game is a " showpiece " for their hardware , they simply do n't care if something does n't work the way it 's supposed to or even has catastrophic errors in it .
Case in point , every ATI driver release from April through OCTOBER this year * hemorrhaged * memory if you used VBOs a certain way .
6 months to fix a bug that critical is pretty miserable.When I was working on graphics drivers , I would normally fix driver bugs as soon as a game was released ( or even earlier if the game developer relation guys got hold of betas ) .
However due to the release cycle of the actual driver itself ( build , regression testing , management , etc .
) the public would n't see the fix for up to 3 months after I committed the change .
Yup , Frustrating .
Secondly , a-lot of game devs just did stuff the wrong way , and depended on the undefined behaviour of the graphics drivers to get stuff done .
Bad coder !
No twinky !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless your game is a "showpiece" for their hardware, they simply don't care if something doesn't work the way it's supposed to or even has catastrophic errors in it.
Case in point, every ATI driver release from April through OCTOBER this year *hemorrhaged* memory if you used VBOs a certain way.
6 months to fix a bug that critical is pretty miserable.When I was working on graphics drivers, I would normally fix driver bugs as soon as a game was released (or even earlier if the game developer relation guys got hold of betas).
However due to the release cycle of the actual driver itself (build, regression testing, management, etc.
) the public wouldn't see the fix for up to 3 months after I committed the change.
Yup, Frustrating.
Secondly, a-lot of game devs just did stuff the wrong way, and depended on the undefined behaviour of the graphics drivers to get stuff done.
Bad coder!
No twinky!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30376278</id>
	<title>Re:This is where consoles win</title>
	<author>thisnamestoolong</author>
	<datestamp>1259591280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Console gaming is fine for most, but for those of us who care, PC gaming will always be far superior. My main reason: user created mods. These will never be easy to create on consoles and will never proliferate the same way we have seen on the PC. Mods extend the shelf-life of a game by several years at the very least. Just look at Half-Life, Doom, Quake, or more recently, Oblivion and Fallout 3. You can completely customize and alter your gaming experience to the point that the game feels completely new. This is not even to mention the increased graphical horsepower you get with a PC -- I have played GTA4 on PC and on PS3, and there is absolutely no comparison. The improvement is actually great enough that it makes it easier to see what you are doing and actually makes it easier and more enjoyable to play the game. There is still a place for PC gaming, and I hope that the game companies will continue to see it (though the chances of this seem slim).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Console gaming is fine for most , but for those of us who care , PC gaming will always be far superior .
My main reason : user created mods .
These will never be easy to create on consoles and will never proliferate the same way we have seen on the PC .
Mods extend the shelf-life of a game by several years at the very least .
Just look at Half-Life , Doom , Quake , or more recently , Oblivion and Fallout 3 .
You can completely customize and alter your gaming experience to the point that the game feels completely new .
This is not even to mention the increased graphical horsepower you get with a PC -- I have played GTA4 on PC and on PS3 , and there is absolutely no comparison .
The improvement is actually great enough that it makes it easier to see what you are doing and actually makes it easier and more enjoyable to play the game .
There is still a place for PC gaming , and I hope that the game companies will continue to see it ( though the chances of this seem slim ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Console gaming is fine for most, but for those of us who care, PC gaming will always be far superior.
My main reason: user created mods.
These will never be easy to create on consoles and will never proliferate the same way we have seen on the PC.
Mods extend the shelf-life of a game by several years at the very least.
Just look at Half-Life, Doom, Quake, or more recently, Oblivion and Fallout 3.
You can completely customize and alter your gaming experience to the point that the game feels completely new.
This is not even to mention the increased graphical horsepower you get with a PC -- I have played GTA4 on PC and on PS3, and there is absolutely no comparison.
The improvement is actually great enough that it makes it easier to see what you are doing and actually makes it easier and more enjoyable to play the game.
There is still a place for PC gaming, and I hope that the game companies will continue to see it (though the chances of this seem slim).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374654</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375014</id>
	<title>Re:"EA released Pandemic Studios' final game"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Hey, there are people who think Daikatana was rather good...</p></div><p>And it's easy to tell who they are too, what with "John Romero's BITCH" tattooed on their foreheads.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey , there are people who think Daikatana was rather good...And it 's easy to tell who they are too , what with " John Romero 's BITCH " tattooed on their foreheads .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hey, there are people who think Daikatana was rather good...And it's easy to tell who they are too, what with "John Romero's BITCH" tattooed on their foreheads.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374816</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375248</id>
	<title>Re:"EA released Pandemic Studios' final game"</title>
	<author>shutdown -p now</author>
	<datestamp>1259575920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If they ever revive the Pandemic name (why? what notable titles have they made?</p></div><p>Battlezone 2. Though that franchise seems to be long forgotten (which is a pity... it was a very interesting genre).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If they ever revive the Pandemic name ( why ?
what notable titles have they made ? Battlezone 2 .
Though that franchise seems to be long forgotten ( which is a pity... it was a very interesting genre ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If they ever revive the Pandemic name (why?
what notable titles have they made?Battlezone 2.
Though that franchise seems to be long forgotten (which is a pity... it was a very interesting genre).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374706</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375500</id>
	<title>Re:Saboteur, hey?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259579880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Unfortunately, the games industry is being pushed by customer demand and sabotaged by shrinking budgets from the corporate side.</p></div><p>Definitely no.</p><p>I worked for the video game industry, and this has nothing to do with QA or anything...<br>The period of the year when the games sell well is Christmas.<br>But selling your game at Christmas means that the game MUST be ready by the end of September.<br>If you miss September, you can say goodbye to make money with your game (especially if it's crappy).<br>There is also a small period at the beginning of January: parents gave money to their children, and the children tend to buy games.</p><p>In general, the company does not care if the game is ready for launch or not, because it does not want to miss the launch date, so the game is sold in the state it is in September.<br>Also, the company believes that a patch will be available by December and won't affect most of the customers, since the game is scheduled to be played after the Christmas sales.<br>Only the early customers will discover the problem.<br>Note also that when a crappy game is published, the company behind the game does not send the game to the magazines, since it does not want to ruin its Christmas sales.</p><p>QA has probably found the problem before September, but the marketing department told that the game must be available whatever the circumstances are.</p><p>So, instead of blaming QA or developers, blame the marketing department instead !</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unfortunately , the games industry is being pushed by customer demand and sabotaged by shrinking budgets from the corporate side.Definitely no.I worked for the video game industry , and this has nothing to do with QA or anything...The period of the year when the games sell well is Christmas.But selling your game at Christmas means that the game MUST be ready by the end of September.If you miss September , you can say goodbye to make money with your game ( especially if it 's crappy ) .There is also a small period at the beginning of January : parents gave money to their children , and the children tend to buy games.In general , the company does not care if the game is ready for launch or not , because it does not want to miss the launch date , so the game is sold in the state it is in September.Also , the company believes that a patch will be available by December and wo n't affect most of the customers , since the game is scheduled to be played after the Christmas sales.Only the early customers will discover the problem.Note also that when a crappy game is published , the company behind the game does not send the game to the magazines , since it does not want to ruin its Christmas sales.QA has probably found the problem before September , but the marketing department told that the game must be available whatever the circumstances are.So , instead of blaming QA or developers , blame the marketing department instead !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unfortunately, the games industry is being pushed by customer demand and sabotaged by shrinking budgets from the corporate side.Definitely no.I worked for the video game industry, and this has nothing to do with QA or anything...The period of the year when the games sell well is Christmas.But selling your game at Christmas means that the game MUST be ready by the end of September.If you miss September, you can say goodbye to make money with your game (especially if it's crappy).There is also a small period at the beginning of January: parents gave money to their children, and the children tend to buy games.In general, the company does not care if the game is ready for launch or not, because it does not want to miss the launch date, so the game is sold in the state it is in September.Also, the company believes that a patch will be available by December and won't affect most of the customers, since the game is scheduled to be played after the Christmas sales.Only the early customers will discover the problem.Note also that when a crappy game is published, the company behind the game does not send the game to the magazines, since it does not want to ruin its Christmas sales.QA has probably found the problem before September, but the marketing department told that the game must be available whatever the circumstances are.So, instead of blaming QA or developers, blame the marketing department instead !
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374530</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30377330</id>
	<title>The most cost effective bug testers are customers!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259598900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why pay for expensive bug testing when you can just sell the game to consumers and release patches for months after. You have their money, and the box is open so they can't return it. Its win win win for executives looking to save money! Also if the game isn't popular, then they can just not release any patches at all and blame the problems on drivers and configurations, because it works fine on their computers!</p><p>No one has any pride anymore, except maybe open source projects.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why pay for expensive bug testing when you can just sell the game to consumers and release patches for months after .
You have their money , and the box is open so they ca n't return it .
Its win win win for executives looking to save money !
Also if the game is n't popular , then they can just not release any patches at all and blame the problems on drivers and configurations , because it works fine on their computers ! No one has any pride anymore , except maybe open source projects .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why pay for expensive bug testing when you can just sell the game to consumers and release patches for months after.
You have their money, and the box is open so they can't return it.
Its win win win for executives looking to save money!
Also if the game isn't popular, then they can just not release any patches at all and blame the problems on drivers and configurations, because it works fine on their computers!No one has any pride anymore, except maybe open source projects.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375222</id>
	<title>Re:This is where consoles win</title>
	<author>Xest</author>
	<datestamp>1259575560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How sad that you got modded troll when what you say is true.</p><p>I've been playing The Saboteur on my XBox for a week now without any problems, despite being a PC gamer for years I switched to the 360 in 2006 and have never looked back. The key drivers have been no fucking around with drivers and stuff to make things even work, and also no real serious issues with cheating. Sure you get people exploit game glitches but at least there are no aimbots, radar or anything stupid and game destroying like that.</p><p>I have tried PC gaming since 2006 on multiple occasions, but it's just not as good and I end up back on my 360. Shit like Crysis ran like crap even on a &pound;1500 PC and still didn't look as good as games like Gears of War 2. Then there's the fact you have to deal with DRM shit from the likes of Steam and on EA games.</p><p>Contrary to popular belief amongst PC gamers, FPS and even RTS games are just as fun with console controls, I always figured I'd never play an RTS on the 360 because I thought it wouldn't be as good without a mouse, but it's just not true, when you get used to using a console controller it's just as easy. Some games, like Overlord for example actually worked better on the console in terms of controls than they did on the PC. In terms of RTS games I complete C&amp;C3 and RA3 on hardest difficulty on the 360 no problem and find no issue playing online either.</p><p>The issue is for PC gaming that it's getting worse rather than better too- if I buy a 360 retail game I can still sell it on second hand, I can't even do that now if I buy a game in a shop for the PC and have to activate it on Steam. Some issues are the fault of the platform- the PC's openness is the reason it's easier to cheat and cheat more spectacularly, whilst others are the fault of game developers- i.e. DRM, and other problems again are half developer, half platform fault- i.e. bugs like this caused by hardware with millions of combinations of different configurations to cater to and developers not catering to them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How sad that you got modded troll when what you say is true.I 've been playing The Saboteur on my XBox for a week now without any problems , despite being a PC gamer for years I switched to the 360 in 2006 and have never looked back .
The key drivers have been no fucking around with drivers and stuff to make things even work , and also no real serious issues with cheating .
Sure you get people exploit game glitches but at least there are no aimbots , radar or anything stupid and game destroying like that.I have tried PC gaming since 2006 on multiple occasions , but it 's just not as good and I end up back on my 360 .
Shit like Crysis ran like crap even on a   1500 PC and still did n't look as good as games like Gears of War 2 .
Then there 's the fact you have to deal with DRM shit from the likes of Steam and on EA games.Contrary to popular belief amongst PC gamers , FPS and even RTS games are just as fun with console controls , I always figured I 'd never play an RTS on the 360 because I thought it would n't be as good without a mouse , but it 's just not true , when you get used to using a console controller it 's just as easy .
Some games , like Overlord for example actually worked better on the console in terms of controls than they did on the PC .
In terms of RTS games I complete C&amp;C3 and RA3 on hardest difficulty on the 360 no problem and find no issue playing online either.The issue is for PC gaming that it 's getting worse rather than better too- if I buy a 360 retail game I can still sell it on second hand , I ca n't even do that now if I buy a game in a shop for the PC and have to activate it on Steam .
Some issues are the fault of the platform- the PC 's openness is the reason it 's easier to cheat and cheat more spectacularly , whilst others are the fault of game developers- i.e .
DRM , and other problems again are half developer , half platform fault- i.e .
bugs like this caused by hardware with millions of combinations of different configurations to cater to and developers not catering to them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How sad that you got modded troll when what you say is true.I've been playing The Saboteur on my XBox for a week now without any problems, despite being a PC gamer for years I switched to the 360 in 2006 and have never looked back.
The key drivers have been no fucking around with drivers and stuff to make things even work, and also no real serious issues with cheating.
Sure you get people exploit game glitches but at least there are no aimbots, radar or anything stupid and game destroying like that.I have tried PC gaming since 2006 on multiple occasions, but it's just not as good and I end up back on my 360.
Shit like Crysis ran like crap even on a £1500 PC and still didn't look as good as games like Gears of War 2.
Then there's the fact you have to deal with DRM shit from the likes of Steam and on EA games.Contrary to popular belief amongst PC gamers, FPS and even RTS games are just as fun with console controls, I always figured I'd never play an RTS on the 360 because I thought it wouldn't be as good without a mouse, but it's just not true, when you get used to using a console controller it's just as easy.
Some games, like Overlord for example actually worked better on the console in terms of controls than they did on the PC.
In terms of RTS games I complete C&amp;C3 and RA3 on hardest difficulty on the 360 no problem and find no issue playing online either.The issue is for PC gaming that it's getting worse rather than better too- if I buy a 360 retail game I can still sell it on second hand, I can't even do that now if I buy a game in a shop for the PC and have to activate it on Steam.
Some issues are the fault of the platform- the PC's openness is the reason it's easier to cheat and cheat more spectacularly, whilst others are the fault of game developers- i.e.
DRM, and other problems again are half developer, half platform fault- i.e.
bugs like this caused by hardware with millions of combinations of different configurations to cater to and developers not catering to them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374654</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30381416</id>
	<title>Huh?</title>
	<author>BumpyCarrot</author>
	<datestamp>1259577840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wait, so the game should be pushed back so that the people who *don't* have any problems can't play it either?

</p><p>Given that a patch'll probably be out post haste, I don't understand that "logic".  I live in the UK, so in the past I've had to wait for games that my friends across the pond are already playing, and it sucks.  Hell, I imported MechWarrior 4.  A *PC game*.  I wasn't going to pirate if I could avoid it.  I'm really disappointed if the community's viewpoint is quite so bitter as to deny other gamers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wait , so the game should be pushed back so that the people who * do n't * have any problems ca n't play it either ?
Given that a patch 'll probably be out post haste , I do n't understand that " logic " .
I live in the UK , so in the past I 've had to wait for games that my friends across the pond are already playing , and it sucks .
Hell , I imported MechWarrior 4 .
A * PC game * .
I was n't going to pirate if I could avoid it .
I 'm really disappointed if the community 's viewpoint is quite so bitter as to deny other gamers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wait, so the game should be pushed back so that the people who *don't* have any problems can't play it either?
Given that a patch'll probably be out post haste, I don't understand that "logic".
I live in the UK, so in the past I've had to wait for games that my friends across the pond are already playing, and it sucks.
Hell, I imported MechWarrior 4.
A *PC game*.
I wasn't going to pirate if I could avoid it.
I'm really disappointed if the community's viewpoint is quite so bitter as to deny other gamers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30376534</id>
	<title>Re:"EA released Pandemic Studios' final game"</title>
	<author>Syberz</author>
	<datestamp>1259593320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yup, like Penny-Arcade<br><a href="http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/1999/11/22/" title="penny-arcade.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/1999/11/22/</a> [penny-arcade.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yup , like Penny-Arcadehttp : //www.penny-arcade.com/comic/1999/11/22/ [ penny-arcade.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yup, like Penny-Arcadehttp://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/1999/11/22/ [penny-arcade.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374816</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30378240</id>
	<title>Re:Because most gamers have zero awareness</title>
	<author>Spad</author>
	<datestamp>1259604180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It was easy, in days gone by, to try demos before you bought games, but these days you're lucky to get a demo at all, let alone one that's available before the game is actually released.</p><p>Add to that the fact that if there is a demo available prior to release then unless it's on Steam you're usually stuck between buying a magazine with a coverdisc containing the demo or queuing for hours on one of the many slow and difficult to navigate download sites (Fileplanet and the like).</p><p>The only demos I've played in recent memory were L4D2 and Football Manager 2010 (although the latter was mostly to satisfy my craving until the game was released rather than to try it out), both available on Steam.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It was easy , in days gone by , to try demos before you bought games , but these days you 're lucky to get a demo at all , let alone one that 's available before the game is actually released.Add to that the fact that if there is a demo available prior to release then unless it 's on Steam you 're usually stuck between buying a magazine with a coverdisc containing the demo or queuing for hours on one of the many slow and difficult to navigate download sites ( Fileplanet and the like ) .The only demos I 've played in recent memory were L4D2 and Football Manager 2010 ( although the latter was mostly to satisfy my craving until the game was released rather than to try it out ) , both available on Steam .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It was easy, in days gone by, to try demos before you bought games, but these days you're lucky to get a demo at all, let alone one that's available before the game is actually released.Add to that the fact that if there is a demo available prior to release then unless it's on Steam you're usually stuck between buying a magazine with a coverdisc containing the demo or queuing for hours on one of the many slow and difficult to navigate download sites (Fileplanet and the like).The only demos I've played in recent memory were L4D2 and Football Manager 2010 (although the latter was mostly to satisfy my craving until the game was released rather than to try it out), both available on Steam.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374802</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374986</id>
	<title>Re:Saboteur, hey?</title>
	<author>davester666</author>
	<datestamp>1259571600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How exactly is EA supposed to make their number's for this quarter if they have to delay releasing product until after they get it working?  It's better for them to get you to buy the product now, and then actually provide you with the working product sometime later, than for them to delay getting your money until after they fix even grossly apparent bugs.</p><p>Especially in the October-December timeframe, as they can get WAY more people to buy games now, when people are in the mode of buying things for themselves and other people, than it is in say, January, when people are trying to pay for all the crap they bought in October-December.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How exactly is EA supposed to make their number 's for this quarter if they have to delay releasing product until after they get it working ?
It 's better for them to get you to buy the product now , and then actually provide you with the working product sometime later , than for them to delay getting your money until after they fix even grossly apparent bugs.Especially in the October-December timeframe , as they can get WAY more people to buy games now , when people are in the mode of buying things for themselves and other people , than it is in say , January , when people are trying to pay for all the crap they bought in October-December .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How exactly is EA supposed to make their number's for this quarter if they have to delay releasing product until after they get it working?
It's better for them to get you to buy the product now, and then actually provide you with the working product sometime later, than for them to delay getting your money until after they fix even grossly apparent bugs.Especially in the October-December timeframe, as they can get WAY more people to buy games now, when people are in the mode of buying things for themselves and other people, than it is in say, January, when people are trying to pay for all the crap they bought in October-December.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374530</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30376510</id>
	<title>Wait a minute, people buy games?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259593260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I just had a thought about this. Remember the thing about the 95\% piracy factor or whatever bullshet number the ESA made up?</p><p>Here's a free way to get the game tested. Deliberately leak an unfinished version, label it pre-alpha or "E3 Demo" or something with none of the storyline, only the finalized game mechanics/engine and have it "phone home" all the crashes.</p><p>Once the crash report rate dwindles or few people are reporting, release another demo that "demos" a different part of the game. Repeat until people are not reporting bugs with it. Keep internal testers for the storyline, use external players for multiplayer tests.</p><p>This worked so much better in the day of shareware because if the first episode was terrible, you didn't buy the rest.</p><p>Win-win here, you get a bunch of free beta testers, and they can't excuse pirating it later for the game being crap.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I just had a thought about this .
Remember the thing about the 95 \ % piracy factor or whatever bullshet number the ESA made up ? Here 's a free way to get the game tested .
Deliberately leak an unfinished version , label it pre-alpha or " E3 Demo " or something with none of the storyline , only the finalized game mechanics/engine and have it " phone home " all the crashes.Once the crash report rate dwindles or few people are reporting , release another demo that " demos " a different part of the game .
Repeat until people are not reporting bugs with it .
Keep internal testers for the storyline , use external players for multiplayer tests.This worked so much better in the day of shareware because if the first episode was terrible , you did n't buy the rest.Win-win here , you get a bunch of free beta testers , and they ca n't excuse pirating it later for the game being crap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just had a thought about this.
Remember the thing about the 95\% piracy factor or whatever bullshet number the ESA made up?Here's a free way to get the game tested.
Deliberately leak an unfinished version, label it pre-alpha or "E3 Demo" or something with none of the storyline, only the finalized game mechanics/engine and have it "phone home" all the crashes.Once the crash report rate dwindles or few people are reporting, release another demo that "demos" a different part of the game.
Repeat until people are not reporting bugs with it.
Keep internal testers for the storyline, use external players for multiplayer tests.This worked so much better in the day of shareware because if the first episode was terrible, you didn't buy the rest.Win-win here, you get a bunch of free beta testers, and they can't excuse pirating it later for the game being crap.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30384694</id>
	<title>I smell...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259599200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...a class action suit. Go the USA.</p><p>EA, take heed: consumers are \_not\_ your beta testers. That's what you hire people for - oh wait, you fired them all. EA need to be punished for this sort of carry on, we all remember the mess that was Battlefield 2, and that's just for starters.</p><p>Digital distribution and patching has made a number publishers lazy. Patches are for fixing and enhancing, \_not\_ for finishing an incomplete game. I object to downloading 500MB "patches" for a NZ$99 game - bearing in mind that internet traffic in New Zealand is capped - will EA refund me the cost of my internet traffic? I don't think so.</p><p>Some of the most successful software companies held back the release of their games until they were 100\% happy with them (not just Marketing Dept). Valve/Half Life 2 is a prime example and look at it's success. Gamers were stoked to have a game that actually worked and it certainly did not impact the sales of it, in fact the effect was opposite and made it look like a worthy purchase. Valve took a lot of flak for the delays but it does not matter when they ship a quality product that is worth the purchase price.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...a class action suit .
Go the USA.EA , take heed : consumers are \ _not \ _ your beta testers .
That 's what you hire people for - oh wait , you fired them all .
EA need to be punished for this sort of carry on , we all remember the mess that was Battlefield 2 , and that 's just for starters.Digital distribution and patching has made a number publishers lazy .
Patches are for fixing and enhancing , \ _not \ _ for finishing an incomplete game .
I object to downloading 500MB " patches " for a NZ $ 99 game - bearing in mind that internet traffic in New Zealand is capped - will EA refund me the cost of my internet traffic ?
I do n't think so.Some of the most successful software companies held back the release of their games until they were 100 \ % happy with them ( not just Marketing Dept ) .
Valve/Half Life 2 is a prime example and look at it 's success .
Gamers were stoked to have a game that actually worked and it certainly did not impact the sales of it , in fact the effect was opposite and made it look like a worthy purchase .
Valve took a lot of flak for the delays but it does not matter when they ship a quality product that is worth the purchase price .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...a class action suit.
Go the USA.EA, take heed: consumers are \_not\_ your beta testers.
That's what you hire people for - oh wait, you fired them all.
EA need to be punished for this sort of carry on, we all remember the mess that was Battlefield 2, and that's just for starters.Digital distribution and patching has made a number publishers lazy.
Patches are for fixing and enhancing, \_not\_ for finishing an incomplete game.
I object to downloading 500MB "patches" for a NZ$99 game - bearing in mind that internet traffic in New Zealand is capped - will EA refund me the cost of my internet traffic?
I don't think so.Some of the most successful software companies held back the release of their games until they were 100\% happy with them (not just Marketing Dept).
Valve/Half Life 2 is a prime example and look at it's success.
Gamers were stoked to have a game that actually worked and it certainly did not impact the sales of it, in fact the effect was opposite and made it look like a worthy purchase.
Valve took a lot of flak for the delays but it does not matter when they ship a quality product that is worth the purchase price.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30378430</id>
	<title>Re:Saboteur, hey?</title>
	<author>v1</author>
	<datestamp>1259605140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Of course, the developers COULD have been so completely half-assed that they didn't run a single build on an ATI card, in which case they should indeed be beaten to death with cluebats.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P</i></p><p>Lets not forget "We're still working on that nasty ATI bug."  "I don't care, we have a deadline.  The GM needs to be on my desk by noon so it'll be at the duplicators on Monday."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course , the developers COULD have been so completely half-assed that they did n't run a single build on an ATI card , in which case they should indeed be beaten to death with cluebats .
: PLets not forget " We 're still working on that nasty ATI bug .
" " I do n't care , we have a deadline .
The GM needs to be on my desk by noon so it 'll be at the duplicators on Monday .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course, the developers COULD have been so completely half-assed that they didn't run a single build on an ATI card, in which case they should indeed be beaten to death with cluebats.
:PLets not forget "We're still working on that nasty ATI bug.
"  "I don't care, we have a deadline.
The GM needs to be on my desk by noon so it'll be at the duplicators on Monday.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374688</id>
	<title>Re:ATI bugs...</title>
	<author>Ethanol-fueled</author>
	<datestamp>1260301380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yeah, because <a href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-13554\_3-10020782-33.html" title="cnet.com" rel="nofollow">nVidia</a> [cnet.com] never put bad shit out the door.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , because nVidia [ cnet.com ] never put bad shit out the door .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, because nVidia [cnet.com] never put bad shit out the door.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374550</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30386114</id>
	<title>PC games generally poor quality</title>
	<author>jamyskis</author>
	<datestamp>1260441480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's certainly disgraceful that this game should be released in this state, given than around half of PC gamers use ATI cards. That said, I find it a little unfair to single out this game or even EA for the problems. Yes, most EA titles are highly buggy upon release (I was fuming about the problems with ATI cards and Sims 3), but I don't think many other publishers do much of a better job. Most games released over the past 10 years on the PC have been highly buggy. Just off hand I can name Sims 3, The Golden Compass, LA Rush, GTA 4, GTA San Andreas, Kane and Lynch.</p><p>Developers and publishers will tell you that this tendency towards more bugginess is a result of the more complex development procedure arising from the games themselves becoming more and more complex. This is, of course, utter tripe. They will also tell you that the wide variety of PC configurations makes it impossible to cater for all. While there may be some truth to this, there is absolutely no excuse for bugs arising from highly common hardware or logic errors in the game.</p><p>The reason that console games are less buggy than their PC counterparts is simple - money. Tight deadlines and budget constraints mean that developers and publishers are not sufficiently inclined to release a game on the PC with proper testing because they know that they will be able to subsequently release a patch to address the inevitable uproar. The consequences for releasing a buggy game on consoles are much more severe. On consoles like the PS2, GameCube and XBox, this would have meant a full-scale recall. And not every PS3 or XBox 360 gamer has an internet connection. Remember the farce that was Need for Speed Undercover on PS3...?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's certainly disgraceful that this game should be released in this state , given than around half of PC gamers use ATI cards .
That said , I find it a little unfair to single out this game or even EA for the problems .
Yes , most EA titles are highly buggy upon release ( I was fuming about the problems with ATI cards and Sims 3 ) , but I do n't think many other publishers do much of a better job .
Most games released over the past 10 years on the PC have been highly buggy .
Just off hand I can name Sims 3 , The Golden Compass , LA Rush , GTA 4 , GTA San Andreas , Kane and Lynch.Developers and publishers will tell you that this tendency towards more bugginess is a result of the more complex development procedure arising from the games themselves becoming more and more complex .
This is , of course , utter tripe .
They will also tell you that the wide variety of PC configurations makes it impossible to cater for all .
While there may be some truth to this , there is absolutely no excuse for bugs arising from highly common hardware or logic errors in the game.The reason that console games are less buggy than their PC counterparts is simple - money .
Tight deadlines and budget constraints mean that developers and publishers are not sufficiently inclined to release a game on the PC with proper testing because they know that they will be able to subsequently release a patch to address the inevitable uproar .
The consequences for releasing a buggy game on consoles are much more severe .
On consoles like the PS2 , GameCube and XBox , this would have meant a full-scale recall .
And not every PS3 or XBox 360 gamer has an internet connection .
Remember the farce that was Need for Speed Undercover on PS3... ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's certainly disgraceful that this game should be released in this state, given than around half of PC gamers use ATI cards.
That said, I find it a little unfair to single out this game or even EA for the problems.
Yes, most EA titles are highly buggy upon release (I was fuming about the problems with ATI cards and Sims 3), but I don't think many other publishers do much of a better job.
Most games released over the past 10 years on the PC have been highly buggy.
Just off hand I can name Sims 3, The Golden Compass, LA Rush, GTA 4, GTA San Andreas, Kane and Lynch.Developers and publishers will tell you that this tendency towards more bugginess is a result of the more complex development procedure arising from the games themselves becoming more and more complex.
This is, of course, utter tripe.
They will also tell you that the wide variety of PC configurations makes it impossible to cater for all.
While there may be some truth to this, there is absolutely no excuse for bugs arising from highly common hardware or logic errors in the game.The reason that console games are less buggy than their PC counterparts is simple - money.
Tight deadlines and budget constraints mean that developers and publishers are not sufficiently inclined to release a game on the PC with proper testing because they know that they will be able to subsequently release a patch to address the inevitable uproar.
The consequences for releasing a buggy game on consoles are much more severe.
On consoles like the PS2, GameCube and XBox, this would have meant a full-scale recall.
And not every PS3 or XBox 360 gamer has an internet connection.
Remember the farce that was Need for Speed Undercover on PS3...?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30376478</id>
	<title>Re:This is where consoles win</title>
	<author>Syberz</author>
	<datestamp>1259593020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're right, consoles never have these issues... </p><p>You didn't hear about Ghost Recon for the PS3 that was unplayable until the patch came out 1+ month later?</p><p>If it really is a driver issue, then I think that the problem lies with a lack of communication between the game industry and the video card industry.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're right , consoles never have these issues... You did n't hear about Ghost Recon for the PS3 that was unplayable until the patch came out 1 + month later ? If it really is a driver issue , then I think that the problem lies with a lack of communication between the game industry and the video card industry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're right, consoles never have these issues... You didn't hear about Ghost Recon for the PS3 that was unplayable until the patch came out 1+ month later?If it really is a driver issue, then I think that the problem lies with a lack of communication between the game industry and the video card industry.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374654</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374706</id>
	<title>"EA released Pandemic Studios' final game"</title>
	<author>Hadlock</author>
	<datestamp>1260301680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The studio is being retired; there's no value in having the product work at launch. If it takes them a month to get the patch out, so be it, people will blame (the now defunct) Pandemic, and people will continue to buy EA games. If they ever revive the Pandemic name (why? what notable titles have they made? Dark Rein comes to mind, if only because my buddy was obsessed with Dark Rein 2 for so long in high school) nobody will remember this flop in 5-10 years time. The only flop anyone ever remembers is Duke Nukem Forever. I doubt most geeks could tell you the name of the rouge iD developer who made his own FPS (which failed miserably), or what the name of his game was. In two years nobody will remember the "Pandemic studios Pandemic of 2009".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The studio is being retired ; there 's no value in having the product work at launch .
If it takes them a month to get the patch out , so be it , people will blame ( the now defunct ) Pandemic , and people will continue to buy EA games .
If they ever revive the Pandemic name ( why ?
what notable titles have they made ?
Dark Rein comes to mind , if only because my buddy was obsessed with Dark Rein 2 for so long in high school ) nobody will remember this flop in 5-10 years time .
The only flop anyone ever remembers is Duke Nukem Forever .
I doubt most geeks could tell you the name of the rouge iD developer who made his own FPS ( which failed miserably ) , or what the name of his game was .
In two years nobody will remember the " Pandemic studios Pandemic of 2009 " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The studio is being retired; there's no value in having the product work at launch.
If it takes them a month to get the patch out, so be it, people will blame (the now defunct) Pandemic, and people will continue to buy EA games.
If they ever revive the Pandemic name (why?
what notable titles have they made?
Dark Rein comes to mind, if only because my buddy was obsessed with Dark Rein 2 for so long in high school) nobody will remember this flop in 5-10 years time.
The only flop anyone ever remembers is Duke Nukem Forever.
I doubt most geeks could tell you the name of the rouge iD developer who made his own FPS (which failed miserably), or what the name of his game was.
In two years nobody will remember the "Pandemic studios Pandemic of 2009".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30385118</id>
	<title>Re:Wait a few months to buy games</title>
	<author>Vastad</author>
	<datestamp>1259604180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I got the PC version of DAO and it appears to be working fine so far. I'm even using mods from dragonagenexus.com, the same guy who did the TESNexus and Falloutnexus websites.</p><p>I would still advise you to wait anyway because the mods are still very basic and you'll likely get the current crop of DLC content bundled for free in a GOTY edition.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I got the PC version of DAO and it appears to be working fine so far .
I 'm even using mods from dragonagenexus.com , the same guy who did the TESNexus and Falloutnexus websites.I would still advise you to wait anyway because the mods are still very basic and you 'll likely get the current crop of DLC content bundled for free in a GOTY edition .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I got the PC version of DAO and it appears to be working fine so far.
I'm even using mods from dragonagenexus.com, the same guy who did the TESNexus and Falloutnexus websites.I would still advise you to wait anyway because the mods are still very basic and you'll likely get the current crop of DLC content bundled for free in a GOTY edition.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30379492</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375022</id>
	<title>Wait a few months to buy games</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is why I started waiting at least 3 months before buying a game.<br>You find out if it is a piece of crap.  Bugs are fixed.  And the best part is that the price tends to go down (after more than 3 months)</p><p>I violated this rule for Neverwinter Nights (trusting BioWare), and NWN at release was a buggy nightmare.  I also returned it.</p><p>Wait until the game has been properly tested in the wild.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is why I started waiting at least 3 months before buying a game.You find out if it is a piece of crap .
Bugs are fixed .
And the best part is that the price tends to go down ( after more than 3 months ) I violated this rule for Neverwinter Nights ( trusting BioWare ) , and NWN at release was a buggy nightmare .
I also returned it.Wait until the game has been properly tested in the wild .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is why I started waiting at least 3 months before buying a game.You find out if it is a piece of crap.
Bugs are fixed.
And the best part is that the price tends to go down (after more than 3 months)I violated this rule for Neverwinter Nights (trusting BioWare), and NWN at release was a buggy nightmare.
I also returned it.Wait until the game has been properly tested in the wild.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374530</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30379316</id>
	<title>Re:Saboteur, hey?</title>
	<author>hduff</author>
	<datestamp>1259609760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Definitely no.</p><p>I worked for the video game industry, and this has nothing to do with QA or anything...
The period of the year when the games sell well is Christmas.
But selling your game at Christmas means that the game MUST be ready by the end of September.
If you miss September, you can say goodbye to make money with your game (especially if it's crappy).</p></div><p>Agree. This is also one of the reasons I quit co-authoring Fedora Unleashed. The publisher wanted the book out by Christmas (it <i>may</i> be a Christmas gift for the Slashdot crowd, but few others) which meant that I had to deliver a completed manuscript in September based on a beta
version but written to look like it was for the final release. No arguing with the marketing department.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Definitely no.I worked for the video game industry , and this has nothing to do with QA or anything.. . The period of the year when the games sell well is Christmas .
But selling your game at Christmas means that the game MUST be ready by the end of September .
If you miss September , you can say goodbye to make money with your game ( especially if it 's crappy ) .Agree .
This is also one of the reasons I quit co-authoring Fedora Unleashed .
The publisher wanted the book out by Christmas ( it may be a Christmas gift for the Slashdot crowd , but few others ) which meant that I had to deliver a completed manuscript in September based on a beta version but written to look like it was for the final release .
No arguing with the marketing department .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Definitely no.I worked for the video game industry, and this has nothing to do with QA or anything...
The period of the year when the games sell well is Christmas.
But selling your game at Christmas means that the game MUST be ready by the end of September.
If you miss September, you can say goodbye to make money with your game (especially if it's crappy).Agree.
This is also one of the reasons I quit co-authoring Fedora Unleashed.
The publisher wanted the book out by Christmas (it may be a Christmas gift for the Slashdot crowd, but few others) which meant that I had to deliver a completed manuscript in September based on a beta
version but written to look like it was for the final release.
No arguing with the marketing department.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375500</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374654</id>
	<title>This is where consoles win</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260300900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As an avid non-gamer, mostly because PC gaming sucks and console gaming is too costly, I have to say, this is why console gaming is where it's at.</p><p>Now, if they'd standardize on an architecture and throw a hardware abstraction layer into the mix, each new iteration of a console would be backward compatible with the old (X-Box seems to be pretty damned close), and the major complaint used by PC gamers to justify their sickness will be void. Once your new machine can do everything your old machine could do, PC gaming no longer has that advantage; upgrading your console no longer means having to keep the old or lose those games.</p><p>Console gaming FTW, from a non-biased non-gamer who's able to see both sides.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As an avid non-gamer , mostly because PC gaming sucks and console gaming is too costly , I have to say , this is why console gaming is where it 's at.Now , if they 'd standardize on an architecture and throw a hardware abstraction layer into the mix , each new iteration of a console would be backward compatible with the old ( X-Box seems to be pretty damned close ) , and the major complaint used by PC gamers to justify their sickness will be void .
Once your new machine can do everything your old machine could do , PC gaming no longer has that advantage ; upgrading your console no longer means having to keep the old or lose those games.Console gaming FTW , from a non-biased non-gamer who 's able to see both sides .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As an avid non-gamer, mostly because PC gaming sucks and console gaming is too costly, I have to say, this is why console gaming is where it's at.Now, if they'd standardize on an architecture and throw a hardware abstraction layer into the mix, each new iteration of a console would be backward compatible with the old (X-Box seems to be pretty damned close), and the major complaint used by PC gamers to justify their sickness will be void.
Once your new machine can do everything your old machine could do, PC gaming no longer has that advantage; upgrading your console no longer means having to keep the old or lose those games.Console gaming FTW, from a non-biased non-gamer who's able to see both sides.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374610</id>
	<title>Re:ATI bugs...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260300300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Never had any luck at all with ATI's drivers for any product." Way to generalize.  I've gone back and forth between ATI and Nvidia over the years and at different times I've had issues with both camps concerning drivers.  Also prior to 2008, Nvidia's stereoscopic support caused me more BSOD than any other piece of hardware I've had.  As the technology changes there's a chance in every generation of cards the drivers won't be up to snuff.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Never had any luck at all with ATI 's drivers for any product .
" Way to generalize .
I 've gone back and forth between ATI and Nvidia over the years and at different times I 've had issues with both camps concerning drivers .
Also prior to 2008 , Nvidia 's stereoscopic support caused me more BSOD than any other piece of hardware I 've had .
As the technology changes there 's a chance in every generation of cards the drivers wo n't be up to snuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Never had any luck at all with ATI's drivers for any product.
" Way to generalize.
I've gone back and forth between ATI and Nvidia over the years and at different times I've had issues with both camps concerning drivers.
Also prior to 2008, Nvidia's stereoscopic support caused me more BSOD than any other piece of hardware I've had.
As the technology changes there's a chance in every generation of cards the drivers won't be up to snuff.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374550</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374550</id>
	<title>ATI bugs...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260299640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Eve Online just introduced a new graphical problem (which actually results in a CPU spike too) in the latest expansion (Dominion) that's causing problems with a lot of ATI cards.</p><p>This is why I go with nVidia: my card may be slower than your ATI and I may have paid more for it, but I'll have driver updates twice a week that almost universally work flawlessly. Never had any luck at all with ATI's drivers for any product.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Eve Online just introduced a new graphical problem ( which actually results in a CPU spike too ) in the latest expansion ( Dominion ) that 's causing problems with a lot of ATI cards.This is why I go with nVidia : my card may be slower than your ATI and I may have paid more for it , but I 'll have driver updates twice a week that almost universally work flawlessly .
Never had any luck at all with ATI 's drivers for any product .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Eve Online just introduced a new graphical problem (which actually results in a CPU spike too) in the latest expansion (Dominion) that's causing problems with a lot of ATI cards.This is why I go with nVidia: my card may be slower than your ATI and I may have paid more for it, but I'll have driver updates twice a week that almost universally work flawlessly.
Never had any luck at all with ATI's drivers for any product.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30385604</id>
	<title>Only one data point...can show anything</title>
	<author>sznupi</author>
	<datestamp>1260476520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You totally ignore other important factors.</p><p>Less pervasive DRM for example, one not relying on keys and/or authentication.</p><p>Meaning one important thing...<b>it is much more realistic to resale console games, or even buy them used outright</b> (and resale is also an option in the latter case of course, if you don't feel like keeping the game; usually you can do it at around the same or even slightly <b>higher</b> price, meaning that the cost of such consoles games <b>is better then ZERO</b>)</p><p>Console gaming is dirt cheap. Getting a console and a laptop for work - still cheaper.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You totally ignore other important factors.Less pervasive DRM for example , one not relying on keys and/or authentication.Meaning one important thing...it is much more realistic to resale console games , or even buy them used outright ( and resale is also an option in the latter case of course , if you do n't feel like keeping the game ; usually you can do it at around the same or even slightly higher price , meaning that the cost of such consoles games is better then ZERO ) Console gaming is dirt cheap .
Getting a console and a laptop for work - still cheaper .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You totally ignore other important factors.Less pervasive DRM for example, one not relying on keys and/or authentication.Meaning one important thing...it is much more realistic to resale console games, or even buy them used outright (and resale is also an option in the latter case of course, if you don't feel like keeping the game; usually you can do it at around the same or even slightly higher price, meaning that the cost of such consoles games is better then ZERO)Console gaming is dirt cheap.
Getting a console and a laptop for work - still cheaper.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375102</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374728</id>
	<title>Problem with Sabateur, with DirectX, or with ATI?</title>
	<author>Mhrmnhrm</author>
	<datestamp>1260301860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is the second game in just the past two weeks to suffer <b>MAJOR</b> headaches with ATI video cards... CCP's EVE-Online Dominion expansion has also been plagued by ATI-related video problems, artifacts, and outright crashing.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is the second game in just the past two weeks to suffer MAJOR headaches with ATI video cards... CCP 's EVE-Online Dominion expansion has also been plagued by ATI-related video problems , artifacts , and outright crashing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is the second game in just the past two weeks to suffer MAJOR headaches with ATI video cards... CCP's EVE-Online Dominion expansion has also been plagued by ATI-related video problems, artifacts, and outright crashing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30378532</id>
	<title>Re:This is where consoles don't win</title>
	<author>BronsCon</author>
	<datestamp>1259605560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I said PC gaming sucked.</p><p>I said <em>console</em> gaming was too expensive.</p><p>Further, once the x-Box 360 is discontinued, I'm fairly sure all the old games will still play and it won't magically stop begin able to stream and play video across the LAN. Media center PC, anyone?</p><p>Certainly not useless.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I said PC gaming sucked.I said console gaming was too expensive.Further , once the x-Box 360 is discontinued , I 'm fairly sure all the old games will still play and it wo n't magically stop begin able to stream and play video across the LAN .
Media center PC , anyone ? Certainly not useless .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I said PC gaming sucked.I said console gaming was too expensive.Further, once the x-Box 360 is discontinued, I'm fairly sure all the old games will still play and it won't magically stop begin able to stream and play video across the LAN.
Media center PC, anyone?Certainly not useless.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375102</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30379566</id>
	<title>Re:Saboteur, hey?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259611200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you think Fallout 3 had problems at launch, the DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO PLAY BORDERLANDS!  First, they included SecuROM, which decided it didn't like one of my DVD drives.  That's fine, but there was no error message, just hours of trial and error until I noticed the crash caused access to that particular drive.  Unplug the drive and the game works.  (This was after bantering back and forth with their technical support team who were no help whatsoever.)<br>
&nbsp; <br>Then, exiting having gotten the game to run, play for less than an hour to start getting "General Protection Fault, History:FMOD:AsyncThread::addCallback() Address...." errors which crash to the desktop if I ever play more than 10 minutes.  That's fine with me, as the little of the game I did play was less than a mediocre FPS, and very repetative gameplay after the first couple missions.  (It crashed countless times to be able to play that much.)  This is on a fully updated WinXP, with all drivers updated, etc.  Not to mention their "serverless" multiplayer that is all but useless except for LAN games.<br>
&nbsp; <br>Seriously, I thought Gearbox made good games!  They should have stuck to just doing game expansions (because that is pretty much what Borderlands is, a game expansion extended to be a full game.  BORING AS ALL HELL!  Not to mention the FPS aspect feels like Halo, which feels like a toy compared to any other FPS.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you think Fallout 3 had problems at launch , the DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO PLAY BORDERLANDS !
First , they included SecuROM , which decided it did n't like one of my DVD drives .
That 's fine , but there was no error message , just hours of trial and error until I noticed the crash caused access to that particular drive .
Unplug the drive and the game works .
( This was after bantering back and forth with their technical support team who were no help whatsoever .
)   Then , exiting having gotten the game to run , play for less than an hour to start getting " General Protection Fault , History : FMOD : AsyncThread : : addCallback ( ) Address.... " errors which crash to the desktop if I ever play more than 10 minutes .
That 's fine with me , as the little of the game I did play was less than a mediocre FPS , and very repetative gameplay after the first couple missions .
( It crashed countless times to be able to play that much .
) This is on a fully updated WinXP , with all drivers updated , etc .
Not to mention their " serverless " multiplayer that is all but useless except for LAN games .
  Seriously , I thought Gearbox made good games !
They should have stuck to just doing game expansions ( because that is pretty much what Borderlands is , a game expansion extended to be a full game .
BORING AS ALL HELL !
Not to mention the FPS aspect feels like Halo , which feels like a toy compared to any other FPS .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you think Fallout 3 had problems at launch, the DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO PLAY BORDERLANDS!
First, they included SecuROM, which decided it didn't like one of my DVD drives.
That's fine, but there was no error message, just hours of trial and error until I noticed the crash caused access to that particular drive.
Unplug the drive and the game works.
(This was after bantering back and forth with their technical support team who were no help whatsoever.
)
  Then, exiting having gotten the game to run, play for less than an hour to start getting "General Protection Fault, History:FMOD:AsyncThread::addCallback() Address...." errors which crash to the desktop if I ever play more than 10 minutes.
That's fine with me, as the little of the game I did play was less than a mediocre FPS, and very repetative gameplay after the first couple missions.
(It crashed countless times to be able to play that much.
)  This is on a fully updated WinXP, with all drivers updated, etc.
Not to mention their "serverless" multiplayer that is all but useless except for LAN games.
  Seriously, I thought Gearbox made good games!
They should have stuck to just doing game expansions (because that is pretty much what Borderlands is, a game expansion extended to be a full game.
BORING AS ALL HELL!
Not to mention the FPS aspect feels like Halo, which feels like a toy compared to any other FPS.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374530</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374596</id>
	<title>Re:ATI bugs...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260300120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, we could all start using the same vendor's equipment. Or, people could stop writing shitty code that is only checked for compatibility with one hardware vendor.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , we could all start using the same vendor 's equipment .
Or , people could stop writing shitty code that is only checked for compatibility with one hardware vendor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, we could all start using the same vendor's equipment.
Or, people could stop writing shitty code that is only checked for compatibility with one hardware vendor.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374550</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375646</id>
	<title>Re:Saboteur, hey?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259582340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>THIS is why PC gaming is dead to me.</p><p>I just pop a DVD into the console and forget all about it.  I am so much happier now 3</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>THIS is why PC gaming is dead to me.I just pop a DVD into the console and forget all about it .
I am so much happier now 3</tokentext>
<sentencetext>THIS is why PC gaming is dead to me.I just pop a DVD into the console and forget all about it.
I am so much happier now 3</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374530</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374802</id>
	<title>Because most gamers have zero awareness</title>
	<author>trawg</author>
	<datestamp>1259611500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...about the games they're going to spend money on, and then find out too late that it has problems (ie, after they've paid for it).</p><p>Gamers need to get over that urgent, gripping need they have to rush out and buy a new game the second it is released. They've become too complacent and accustomed to game developers not releasing demos, and - sadly - this has become the status quo. Instead of a demo being something that absolutely has to happen before people even glance at your game, publishers have figured out that they can release some PRs, screenshots, and trailers, and slap anything in a box and it will<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/still/ sell enough to justify doing it that way.</p><p>Once they've gotten your money, it's basically too late (unless you have the energy to go and demand a refund).</p><p>BE A DISCRIMINATING GAMER. Read reviews. Try demos, and if they don't have one post on their forums asking where their demo is. Check out their forums and see what people are complaining about. It's all about knowledge.</p><p>Further, anyone that has touched an EA game in the last 10 years should know by now that they make games based on a deadline. Unless a game is catastrophically not ready, then it will be shipped and shelved, and any problems will get fixed later (maybe). They make a lot of great games, but a good rule of thumb is to only buy them after it's been out for a month and they've fixed all the critical bugs (a good rule for PC games in general).</p><p>Note: I'm not trying to justify shitty development practices. Far from it. I'm trying to make sure people understand the most effective way to vote on this stuff is with their feet - don't buy broken video games.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...about the games they 're going to spend money on , and then find out too late that it has problems ( ie , after they 've paid for it ) .Gamers need to get over that urgent , gripping need they have to rush out and buy a new game the second it is released .
They 've become too complacent and accustomed to game developers not releasing demos , and - sadly - this has become the status quo .
Instead of a demo being something that absolutely has to happen before people even glance at your game , publishers have figured out that they can release some PRs , screenshots , and trailers , and slap anything in a box and it will /still/ sell enough to justify doing it that way.Once they 've gotten your money , it 's basically too late ( unless you have the energy to go and demand a refund ) .BE A DISCRIMINATING GAMER .
Read reviews .
Try demos , and if they do n't have one post on their forums asking where their demo is .
Check out their forums and see what people are complaining about .
It 's all about knowledge.Further , anyone that has touched an EA game in the last 10 years should know by now that they make games based on a deadline .
Unless a game is catastrophically not ready , then it will be shipped and shelved , and any problems will get fixed later ( maybe ) .
They make a lot of great games , but a good rule of thumb is to only buy them after it 's been out for a month and they 've fixed all the critical bugs ( a good rule for PC games in general ) .Note : I 'm not trying to justify shitty development practices .
Far from it .
I 'm trying to make sure people understand the most effective way to vote on this stuff is with their feet - do n't buy broken video games .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...about the games they're going to spend money on, and then find out too late that it has problems (ie, after they've paid for it).Gamers need to get over that urgent, gripping need they have to rush out and buy a new game the second it is released.
They've become too complacent and accustomed to game developers not releasing demos, and - sadly - this has become the status quo.
Instead of a demo being something that absolutely has to happen before people even glance at your game, publishers have figured out that they can release some PRs, screenshots, and trailers, and slap anything in a box and it will /still/ sell enough to justify doing it that way.Once they've gotten your money, it's basically too late (unless you have the energy to go and demand a refund).BE A DISCRIMINATING GAMER.
Read reviews.
Try demos, and if they don't have one post on their forums asking where their demo is.
Check out their forums and see what people are complaining about.
It's all about knowledge.Further, anyone that has touched an EA game in the last 10 years should know by now that they make games based on a deadline.
Unless a game is catastrophically not ready, then it will be shipped and shelved, and any problems will get fixed later (maybe).
They make a lot of great games, but a good rule of thumb is to only buy them after it's been out for a month and they've fixed all the critical bugs (a good rule for PC games in general).Note: I'm not trying to justify shitty development practices.
Far from it.
I'm trying to make sure people understand the most effective way to vote on this stuff is with their feet - don't buy broken video games.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374684</id>
	<title>Re:ATI bugs...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260301320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'll chime in on nVidia's side. Been using them ever since I switched to Linux, and thanks to their 100\% consistent, solid Linux support since like 2000 or something, I will almost certainly never switch away. Out of the probably more than a dozen nVidia cards I've had, each one has worked flawlessly with great 3D in Linux and Windows alike.</p><p>In contrast to that, my friend who used to be an ATI fanboy had nothing but issues with both the open source and the ATI-provided Linux drivers until like 2006, when he finally gave up and switched to nVidia chipsets on everything.</p><p>The performance leader seems to trade off between nVidia and ATI depending on generation, but nVidia always has the driver support. There's just no reason to risk the driver issues by going with ATI.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll chime in on nVidia 's side .
Been using them ever since I switched to Linux , and thanks to their 100 \ % consistent , solid Linux support since like 2000 or something , I will almost certainly never switch away .
Out of the probably more than a dozen nVidia cards I 've had , each one has worked flawlessly with great 3D in Linux and Windows alike.In contrast to that , my friend who used to be an ATI fanboy had nothing but issues with both the open source and the ATI-provided Linux drivers until like 2006 , when he finally gave up and switched to nVidia chipsets on everything.The performance leader seems to trade off between nVidia and ATI depending on generation , but nVidia always has the driver support .
There 's just no reason to risk the driver issues by going with ATI .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll chime in on nVidia's side.
Been using them ever since I switched to Linux, and thanks to their 100\% consistent, solid Linux support since like 2000 or something, I will almost certainly never switch away.
Out of the probably more than a dozen nVidia cards I've had, each one has worked flawlessly with great 3D in Linux and Windows alike.In contrast to that, my friend who used to be an ATI fanboy had nothing but issues with both the open source and the ATI-provided Linux drivers until like 2006, when he finally gave up and switched to nVidia chipsets on everything.The performance leader seems to trade off between nVidia and ATI depending on generation, but nVidia always has the driver support.
There's just no reason to risk the driver issues by going with ATI.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374550</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30378368</id>
	<title>Re:This is where consoles win</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259604900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ok, so you go on to bitch about poor game quality on consoles. Ok, you have a point; it's just ironic that you're making that point in a comment thread on an article about a shit quality PC game.</p><p>This happens on both sides of the fence, friend. Are you <em>sure</em> you haven't gained maybe just a little bias and not realized it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ok , so you go on to bitch about poor game quality on consoles .
Ok , you have a point ; it 's just ironic that you 're making that point in a comment thread on an article about a shit quality PC game.This happens on both sides of the fence , friend .
Are you sure you have n't gained maybe just a little bias and not realized it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ok, so you go on to bitch about poor game quality on consoles.
Ok, you have a point; it's just ironic that you're making that point in a comment thread on an article about a shit quality PC game.This happens on both sides of the fence, friend.
Are you sure you haven't gained maybe just a little bias and not realized it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374974</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374884</id>
	<title>Re:"EA released Pandemic Studios' final game"</title>
	<author>teg</author>
	<datestamp>1259612880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>The studio is being retired; there's no value in having the product work at launch. If it takes them a month to get the patch out, so be it, people will blame (the now defunct) Pandemic, and people will continue to buy EA games</i> </p><p>
There's definitely value in having the product work at launch - if there wasn't value in that, why develop the game at all? EA has spent most of the title's budget by now - now is the time to get income. Looking at EA's results, that income is sorely needed too.

</p><p>
And of course, I recall Daikatana and John Romero. Not a lot of other fiascos from that time, though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The studio is being retired ; there 's no value in having the product work at launch .
If it takes them a month to get the patch out , so be it , people will blame ( the now defunct ) Pandemic , and people will continue to buy EA games There 's definitely value in having the product work at launch - if there was n't value in that , why develop the game at all ?
EA has spent most of the title 's budget by now - now is the time to get income .
Looking at EA 's results , that income is sorely needed too .
And of course , I recall Daikatana and John Romero .
Not a lot of other fiascos from that time , though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> The studio is being retired; there's no value in having the product work at launch.
If it takes them a month to get the patch out, so be it, people will blame (the now defunct) Pandemic, and people will continue to buy EA games 
There's definitely value in having the product work at launch - if there wasn't value in that, why develop the game at all?
EA has spent most of the title's budget by now - now is the time to get income.
Looking at EA's results, that income is sorely needed too.
And of course, I recall Daikatana and John Romero.
Not a lot of other fiascos from that time, though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374706</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374816</id>
	<title>Re:"EA released Pandemic Studios' final game"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259611860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hey, there are people who think Daikatana was rather good...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey , there are people who think Daikatana was rather good.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hey, there are people who think Daikatana was rather good...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374706</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30375402</id>
	<title>Re:"EA released Pandemic Studios' final game"</title>
	<author>mqduck</author>
	<datestamp>1259578560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I doubt most geeks could tell you the name of the rouge iD developer who made his own FPS (which failed miserably), or what the name of his game was.</p></div><p>I "remember" John Romero and Daikatana, and I wasn't even aware of the PC games scene when it was current news.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I doubt most geeks could tell you the name of the rouge iD developer who made his own FPS ( which failed miserably ) , or what the name of his game was.I " remember " John Romero and Daikatana , and I was n't even aware of the PC games scene when it was current news .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I doubt most geeks could tell you the name of the rouge iD developer who made his own FPS (which failed miserably), or what the name of his game was.I "remember" John Romero and Daikatana, and I wasn't even aware of the PC games scene when it was current news.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374706</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30377172</id>
	<title>Re:Saboteur, hey?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259597760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But... but... but.. the monthly releases were supposed to fix craptacularness like this.</p><p>Anyways, if you think the Windows drivers are bad, try cataclysmic linux drivers, but at least there, there are OSS drivers which are looking to be shaping up pretty good even for R6XX &amp; R7XX (presumably R8XX as well).</p><p>Anyways, this is NOT the ONLY game to have problems, I regularly get atikmdiag (or whatever it is) stopping in some areas of Drakensang and Oblivious sometimes it leads to a game crash other times the driver will recover after a minute or so.  (No it's not heat related as I started monitoring that in game when that happened and in all cases GPU load was fairly low when this occurred(temps upper 50s to low 60sC), not to mention furmark runs for quite some getting the GPU MUCH warmer(upper 70sC) and at a much higher load with no problems.)</p><p>Probably not memory related either as it only happens with a few games, and let's face it in my case neither of the games in question are really GPU demanding.</p><p>(I'm running on a notebook(4850 mobility) which doesn't offer frequent driver updates so I eventually took the plunge and modded my own drivers using a utility.  Didn't help at all, and I'm a bit leery of running the risk of another driver update as ATM it's my only really useable machine until I get the new desktop parted out and built. The notebook part also kind of sucks in while that the GPU is an MXM card I'd need to fabricate a heatsink or have one fabricated if I switched cards unless I was VERY lucky.  At leat with a desktop it's simply a matter of ganking out the old GPU and swapping in the new, so I recommend experimenting with ATI on desktops only for now.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But... but... but.. the monthly releases were supposed to fix craptacularness like this.Anyways , if you think the Windows drivers are bad , try cataclysmic linux drivers , but at least there , there are OSS drivers which are looking to be shaping up pretty good even for R6XX &amp; R7XX ( presumably R8XX as well ) .Anyways , this is NOT the ONLY game to have problems , I regularly get atikmdiag ( or whatever it is ) stopping in some areas of Drakensang and Oblivious sometimes it leads to a game crash other times the driver will recover after a minute or so .
( No it 's not heat related as I started monitoring that in game when that happened and in all cases GPU load was fairly low when this occurred ( temps upper 50s to low 60sC ) , not to mention furmark runs for quite some getting the GPU MUCH warmer ( upper 70sC ) and at a much higher load with no problems .
) Probably not memory related either as it only happens with a few games , and let 's face it in my case neither of the games in question are really GPU demanding .
( I 'm running on a notebook ( 4850 mobility ) which does n't offer frequent driver updates so I eventually took the plunge and modded my own drivers using a utility .
Did n't help at all , and I 'm a bit leery of running the risk of another driver update as ATM it 's my only really useable machine until I get the new desktop parted out and built .
The notebook part also kind of sucks in while that the GPU is an MXM card I 'd need to fabricate a heatsink or have one fabricated if I switched cards unless I was VERY lucky .
At leat with a desktop it 's simply a matter of ganking out the old GPU and swapping in the new , so I recommend experimenting with ATI on desktops only for now .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But... but... but.. the monthly releases were supposed to fix craptacularness like this.Anyways, if you think the Windows drivers are bad, try cataclysmic linux drivers, but at least there, there are OSS drivers which are looking to be shaping up pretty good even for R6XX &amp; R7XX (presumably R8XX as well).Anyways, this is NOT the ONLY game to have problems, I regularly get atikmdiag (or whatever it is) stopping in some areas of Drakensang and Oblivious sometimes it leads to a game crash other times the driver will recover after a minute or so.
(No it's not heat related as I started monitoring that in game when that happened and in all cases GPU load was fairly low when this occurred(temps upper 50s to low 60sC), not to mention furmark runs for quite some getting the GPU MUCH warmer(upper 70sC) and at a much higher load with no problems.
)Probably not memory related either as it only happens with a few games, and let's face it in my case neither of the games in question are really GPU demanding.
(I'm running on a notebook(4850 mobility) which doesn't offer frequent driver updates so I eventually took the plunge and modded my own drivers using a utility.
Didn't help at all, and I'm a bit leery of running the risk of another driver update as ATM it's my only really useable machine until I get the new desktop parted out and built.
The notebook part also kind of sucks in while that the GPU is an MXM card I'd need to fabricate a heatsink or have one fabricated if I switched cards unless I was VERY lucky.
At leat with a desktop it's simply a matter of ganking out the old GPU and swapping in the new, so I recommend experimenting with ATI on desktops only for now.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374594</id>
	<title>Re:ATI bugs...</title>
	<author>Merls the Sneaky</author>
	<datestamp>1260300120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've never had any luck with Nvidia hardware. I even had one card overheat and burn out the motherboard it was installed to.</p><p>besides this isn't a video card issue this should have been discovered within two minutes of Q&amp;A testing. I guess they just skipped the Q&amp;A</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've never had any luck with Nvidia hardware .
I even had one card overheat and burn out the motherboard it was installed to.besides this is n't a video card issue this should have been discovered within two minutes of Q&amp;A testing .
I guess they just skipped the Q&amp;A</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've never had any luck with Nvidia hardware.
I even had one card overheat and burn out the motherboard it was installed to.besides this isn't a video card issue this should have been discovered within two minutes of Q&amp;A testing.
I guess they just skipped the Q&amp;A</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_09_0542246.30374550</parent>
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