<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_12_08_0015216</id>
	<title>Subverting Fingerprinting</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1260278100000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>squizzar writes in with news of a 27 year old Chinese woman who was discovered to have <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8400222.stm">had her fingerprints surgically swapped between hands</a> in order to fool Japanese immigration. <i>"It is Japan's first case of alleged biometric fraud, but police believe the practice may be widespread. ... The apparent ability of illegal migration networks to break through hi-tech controls suggests that other countries who fingerprint visitors could be equally vulnerable &mdash; not least the United States, according to BBC Asia analyst Andre Vornic."</i> Time for some biometric escalation. Could iris scans be <a href="http://www.pinballrebel.com/game/pins/ij2/shop/Eyeball\_files/MovieStill.jpg">subverted as easily</a>?</htmltext>
<tokenext>squizzar writes in with news of a 27 year old Chinese woman who was discovered to have had her fingerprints surgically swapped between hands in order to fool Japanese immigration .
" It is Japan 's first case of alleged biometric fraud , but police believe the practice may be widespread .
... The apparent ability of illegal migration networks to break through hi-tech controls suggests that other countries who fingerprint visitors could be equally vulnerable    not least the United States , according to BBC Asia analyst Andre Vornic .
" Time for some biometric escalation .
Could iris scans be subverted as easily ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>squizzar writes in with news of a 27 year old Chinese woman who was discovered to have had her fingerprints surgically swapped between hands in order to fool Japanese immigration.
"It is Japan's first case of alleged biometric fraud, but police believe the practice may be widespread.
... The apparent ability of illegal migration networks to break through hi-tech controls suggests that other countries who fingerprint visitors could be equally vulnerable — not least the United States, according to BBC Asia analyst Andre Vornic.
" Time for some biometric escalation.
Could iris scans be subverted as easily?</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361206</id>
	<title>That's gotta hurt...</title>
	<author>Trip6</author>
	<datestamp>1260203100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...cutting off one's fingerprints and swapping them between hands?  OUCH!!! And there's more nerves there than anywhere else in the body.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...cutting off one 's fingerprints and swapping them between hands ?
OUCH ! ! ! And there 's more nerves there than anywhere else in the body .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...cutting off one's fingerprints and swapping them between hands?
OUCH!!! And there's more nerves there than anywhere else in the body.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30363558</id>
	<title>Re:Watching 'Bladerunner' too many times?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260275280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is pretty hard to fool an iris scanner. Using the Wesley Snipes method wouldn't cut it, because (good) iris scanners look for the little involuntary muscle spasms in your pupil, and the natural reaction to light is also a dead giveaway if missing.</p><p>As for the Minority report scenario, tampering with your eyes carries extreme risks that no sane person is willing to take, and such operations are not (yet) even possible.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is pretty hard to fool an iris scanner .
Using the Wesley Snipes method would n't cut it , because ( good ) iris scanners look for the little involuntary muscle spasms in your pupil , and the natural reaction to light is also a dead giveaway if missing.As for the Minority report scenario , tampering with your eyes carries extreme risks that no sane person is willing to take , and such operations are not ( yet ) even possible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is pretty hard to fool an iris scanner.
Using the Wesley Snipes method wouldn't cut it, because (good) iris scanners look for the little involuntary muscle spasms in your pupil, and the natural reaction to light is also a dead giveaway if missing.As for the Minority report scenario, tampering with your eyes carries extreme risks that no sane person is willing to take, and such operations are not (yet) even possible.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30369880</id>
	<title>Re:Iris size: Trivial</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260264540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Cocaine dilates the eye. You want something like morphine instead. Try to know a lit</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Cocaine dilates the eye .
You want something like morphine instead .
Try to know a lit</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cocaine dilates the eye.
You want something like morphine instead.
Try to know a lit</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30363728</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360258</id>
	<title>Shodan's retinal scanners can always be fooled</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260195660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>if you carry around a handy severed head.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>if you carry around a handy severed head .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if you carry around a handy severed head.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360370</id>
	<title>Scanners</title>
	<author>girlintraining</author>
	<datestamp>1260196500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem isn't technology in this case, but rather bad assumptions made by the designers and users. What you're doing when you use a biometric scanner is (most often) taking a reading and converting that into a hash. And for any given hash, there will be <i>at least</i> one pattern that will resolve for that hash, possibly several or many. It's the same with DNA -- we can't sequence and compare a person's entire DNA, but we know certain parts of certain genes exhibit a high degree of variability, and so we sequence those and use them for comparison.</p><p>In this case, an assumption was made that fingerprints don't change on a person. Well, using lasers and surgical techniques, they can be changed, and therefore the system can be bypassed -- not because the technology is flawed, but the assumptions made about its use were. Now that this technique has been observed, we need to add another step to the identification process: Looking for scars on the fingers that suggest surgical techniques have been applied. The fingers should be carefully inspected before fingerprinting anyway -- to identify other forms of fraud as well.</p><p>Of course, there's still the human variable: Immigration necessarily requires hundreds to hundreds of thousands of personnel to administrate the rules. And the system is only as strong as the weakest link -- or the weakest person. There will always be people that can be bribed or manipulated -- or just plain lazy, and those weaknesses can be exploited. And truthfully, it'd probably be cheaper.</p><p>As long as the government walls off access to goods and services by attempting to uniquely identify people, there'll be a market for false identification. Is the price point their system has set too low?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is n't technology in this case , but rather bad assumptions made by the designers and users .
What you 're doing when you use a biometric scanner is ( most often ) taking a reading and converting that into a hash .
And for any given hash , there will be at least one pattern that will resolve for that hash , possibly several or many .
It 's the same with DNA -- we ca n't sequence and compare a person 's entire DNA , but we know certain parts of certain genes exhibit a high degree of variability , and so we sequence those and use them for comparison.In this case , an assumption was made that fingerprints do n't change on a person .
Well , using lasers and surgical techniques , they can be changed , and therefore the system can be bypassed -- not because the technology is flawed , but the assumptions made about its use were .
Now that this technique has been observed , we need to add another step to the identification process : Looking for scars on the fingers that suggest surgical techniques have been applied .
The fingers should be carefully inspected before fingerprinting anyway -- to identify other forms of fraud as well.Of course , there 's still the human variable : Immigration necessarily requires hundreds to hundreds of thousands of personnel to administrate the rules .
And the system is only as strong as the weakest link -- or the weakest person .
There will always be people that can be bribed or manipulated -- or just plain lazy , and those weaknesses can be exploited .
And truthfully , it 'd probably be cheaper.As long as the government walls off access to goods and services by attempting to uniquely identify people , there 'll be a market for false identification .
Is the price point their system has set too low ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem isn't technology in this case, but rather bad assumptions made by the designers and users.
What you're doing when you use a biometric scanner is (most often) taking a reading and converting that into a hash.
And for any given hash, there will be at least one pattern that will resolve for that hash, possibly several or many.
It's the same with DNA -- we can't sequence and compare a person's entire DNA, but we know certain parts of certain genes exhibit a high degree of variability, and so we sequence those and use them for comparison.In this case, an assumption was made that fingerprints don't change on a person.
Well, using lasers and surgical techniques, they can be changed, and therefore the system can be bypassed -- not because the technology is flawed, but the assumptions made about its use were.
Now that this technique has been observed, we need to add another step to the identification process: Looking for scars on the fingers that suggest surgical techniques have been applied.
The fingers should be carefully inspected before fingerprinting anyway -- to identify other forms of fraud as well.Of course, there's still the human variable: Immigration necessarily requires hundreds to hundreds of thousands of personnel to administrate the rules.
And the system is only as strong as the weakest link -- or the weakest person.
There will always be people that can be bribed or manipulated -- or just plain lazy, and those weaknesses can be exploited.
And truthfully, it'd probably be cheaper.As long as the government walls off access to goods and services by attempting to uniquely identify people, there'll be a market for false identification.
Is the price point their system has set too low?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361752</id>
	<title>Re:Still the same fingerprints...?</title>
	<author>izomiac</author>
	<datestamp>1260207780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I would think it would be more worth it to get someone <b>else's</b> fingerprints, if you could.</p></div><p>Swapping one's own finger pads is bound to be painful and you'd lose your sense of touch for quite a while (perhaps some of it permanently).  Graphing on someone else's would mean that you'd need to take immunosuppressants to make rejection less likely.  Taking those drugs is better than dying, but they're certainly no walk in the park, and expensive to boot.  You'd basically be sacrificing years of your life and the health of your remaining years.  I could see a suicide bomber doing it in a heartbeat, but not someone trying to fool immigration.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would think it would be more worth it to get someone else 's fingerprints , if you could.Swapping one 's own finger pads is bound to be painful and you 'd lose your sense of touch for quite a while ( perhaps some of it permanently ) .
Graphing on someone else 's would mean that you 'd need to take immunosuppressants to make rejection less likely .
Taking those drugs is better than dying , but they 're certainly no walk in the park , and expensive to boot .
You 'd basically be sacrificing years of your life and the health of your remaining years .
I could see a suicide bomber doing it in a heartbeat , but not someone trying to fool immigration .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would think it would be more worth it to get someone else's fingerprints, if you could.Swapping one's own finger pads is bound to be painful and you'd lose your sense of touch for quite a while (perhaps some of it permanently).
Graphing on someone else's would mean that you'd need to take immunosuppressants to make rejection less likely.
Taking those drugs is better than dying, but they're certainly no walk in the park, and expensive to boot.
You'd basically be sacrificing years of your life and the health of your remaining years.
I could see a suicide bomber doing it in a heartbeat, but not someone trying to fool immigration.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360306</id>
	<title>What a security vulnerability!</title>
	<author>Logic Worshipper</author>
	<datestamp>1260196020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is only a security threat if someone removes my finger and graft's it to someone else's hand so they can get my data.  So my data is only as secure as the skin on my finger.  I'm so scared.  The likelihood of someone stealing my finger to get data is really high.  Worse, they'll steal my eyeball to fake an iris scan.  Maybe soon they'll just steal my brain and remove the passwords I have memorized. I'm sure in all those scenarios what I'll be thinking is "OMG, My Data!"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is only a security threat if someone removes my finger and graft 's it to someone else 's hand so they can get my data .
So my data is only as secure as the skin on my finger .
I 'm so scared .
The likelihood of someone stealing my finger to get data is really high .
Worse , they 'll steal my eyeball to fake an iris scan .
Maybe soon they 'll just steal my brain and remove the passwords I have memorized .
I 'm sure in all those scenarios what I 'll be thinking is " OMG , My Data !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is only a security threat if someone removes my finger and graft's it to someone else's hand so they can get my data.
So my data is only as secure as the skin on my finger.
I'm so scared.
The likelihood of someone stealing my finger to get data is really high.
Worse, they'll steal my eyeball to fake an iris scan.
Maybe soon they'll just steal my brain and remove the passwords I have memorized.
I'm sure in all those scenarios what I'll be thinking is "OMG, My Data!
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360510</id>
	<title>Re:long term identity subversion prevention</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260197460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>To rely on other electronic systems for that reset is flawed and misses the essential nature of how people understand and use interpersonal identity.</p></div><p>Not everyone likes their friends, family, coworkers, or neighbors. Some people have jobs that are highly mobile. Some people prefer not having attachments to others. There are individuals that don't have a community identity of any kind. Should a person be denied access to those resources simply on the basis that they have no friends?</p><p>Officer: "Well your honor, he hadn't committed any crimes but we noticed that he had no friends."</p><p>Judge: "Good enough for me! Anyone who has no friends is clearly a threat to society. Book 'em danno."</p><p>Officer: "Uh, yes sir. Who's Danno?"</p><p>Judge: "Nevermind, son. It was before your time."</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>To rely on other electronic systems for that reset is flawed and misses the essential nature of how people understand and use interpersonal identity.Not everyone likes their friends , family , coworkers , or neighbors .
Some people have jobs that are highly mobile .
Some people prefer not having attachments to others .
There are individuals that do n't have a community identity of any kind .
Should a person be denied access to those resources simply on the basis that they have no friends ? Officer : " Well your honor , he had n't committed any crimes but we noticed that he had no friends .
" Judge : " Good enough for me !
Anyone who has no friends is clearly a threat to society .
Book 'em danno .
" Officer : " Uh , yes sir .
Who 's Danno ?
" Judge : " Nevermind , son .
It was before your time .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To rely on other electronic systems for that reset is flawed and misses the essential nature of how people understand and use interpersonal identity.Not everyone likes their friends, family, coworkers, or neighbors.
Some people have jobs that are highly mobile.
Some people prefer not having attachments to others.
There are individuals that don't have a community identity of any kind.
Should a person be denied access to those resources simply on the basis that they have no friends?Officer: "Well your honor, he hadn't committed any crimes but we noticed that he had no friends.
"Judge: "Good enough for me!
Anyone who has no friends is clearly a threat to society.
Book 'em danno.
"Officer: "Uh, yes sir.
Who's Danno?
"Judge: "Nevermind, son.
It was before your time.
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360646</id>
	<title>Re:long term identity subversion prevention</title>
	<author>MarkvW</author>
	<datestamp>1260198420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I dunno . . . ever seen the movie "The Return of Martin Guerre?"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I dunno .
. .
ever seen the movie " The Return of Martin Guerre ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I dunno .
. .
ever seen the movie "The Return of Martin Guerre?
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30362728</id>
	<title>Re:Did she fool anyone, though?</title>
	<author>Jeeeb</author>
	<datestamp>1260305880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>However, their cost to check has now gone up by at least 2x, maybe even 10x - they need to manually inspect every person (you can't just check the negatives because if the faker happens to have passed through successfully in the past their 'new' prints will already be in the database).</i> <br> <br>

Where did you pull those numbers from? When you enter Japan you're already talking one on one with an immigration official (He checks your passport<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.etc.) It would be trivial for him to ask to check your fingers before scanning. Hell couldn't that be automated with updated technology?</htmltext>
<tokenext>However , their cost to check has now gone up by at least 2x , maybe even 10x - they need to manually inspect every person ( you ca n't just check the negatives because if the faker happens to have passed through successfully in the past their 'new ' prints will already be in the database ) .
Where did you pull those numbers from ?
When you enter Japan you 're already talking one on one with an immigration official ( He checks your passport .etc .
) It would be trivial for him to ask to check your fingers before scanning .
Hell could n't that be automated with updated technology ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>However, their cost to check has now gone up by at least 2x, maybe even 10x - they need to manually inspect every person (you can't just check the negatives because if the faker happens to have passed through successfully in the past their 'new' prints will already be in the database).
Where did you pull those numbers from?
When you enter Japan you're already talking one on one with an immigration official (He checks your passport .etc.
) It would be trivial for him to ask to check your fingers before scanning.
Hell couldn't that be automated with updated technology?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360584</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361014</id>
	<title>Gives a new meaning to...</title>
	<author>Nefarious Wheel</author>
	<datestamp>1260201300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> I'm sure in all those scenarios what I'll be thinking is "OMG, My Data!"</p></div><p>Gives a new meaning to the term "thumb drive".</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sure in all those scenarios what I 'll be thinking is " OMG , My Data !
" Gives a new meaning to the term " thumb drive " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I'm sure in all those scenarios what I'll be thinking is "OMG, My Data!
"Gives a new meaning to the term "thumb drive".
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360306</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30363008</id>
	<title>Re:What about publishing them openly?</title>
	<author>/.Rooster</author>
	<datestamp>1260266580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>How about a public (anonymised) repository of fingerprints. The idea is this: I can't change my prints, nor can I get back control once the government has taken them. But I could publish them to the world. That makes the print very easy for anyone else to fake. In other words, plausible deniability.</p></div><p>Why stop there.. Post DNA to the web too<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p><p>To my mind the who idea of biometrics as an absolute to your identity is bogus. It is nuts to think that just because DNA is 'unique' you it makes it exclusive enough to be a guarantee of who you are. Given time and technology and the descendants of the current DNA cloning technology they use to solve crimes being smaller, cheaper and portable how long will it be before DNA is realised to be THE most unreliable  source of exclusivity there is as EVERYONE leaves traces of their DNA everywhere they ever go.</p><p>Think of it this way. My brother who works in a top research Lab had the experience of the associated bank to the lab talk about putting in a biometric cash machine. This lab specialises in biomedicine and so it was rather a shock to the bank in question when they had hundred of very qualified scientists signing a petition against the idea. Why you make ask? Simple, they know the limits of biometric data and are ahead of the loop when it comes to it's usefulness. In a traditional set up if you lose your credit/debit card what happens? You contact the bank, they cancel the card, they give you a new one, End of story. If your biometric data gets compromised what do you do then?</p><p>Sometimes it is better if people thought about the long term instead of the quick fix, but the truth of the matter is all this climate of fear , suspicion, and draconian security is all fueled  by the industries that profit from them. Is this any surprise to people? It is the same with spam email and viruses. These are very simple problems to circumvent but there is a MASSIVE industry making sure no one ever does.</p><p>Call me a cynic but that's the way I see it.</p><p>'snuff said.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How about a public ( anonymised ) repository of fingerprints .
The idea is this : I ca n't change my prints , nor can I get back control once the government has taken them .
But I could publish them to the world .
That makes the print very easy for anyone else to fake .
In other words , plausible deniability.Why stop there.. Post DNA to the web too ; ) To my mind the who idea of biometrics as an absolute to your identity is bogus .
It is nuts to think that just because DNA is 'unique ' you it makes it exclusive enough to be a guarantee of who you are .
Given time and technology and the descendants of the current DNA cloning technology they use to solve crimes being smaller , cheaper and portable how long will it be before DNA is realised to be THE most unreliable source of exclusivity there is as EVERYONE leaves traces of their DNA everywhere they ever go.Think of it this way .
My brother who works in a top research Lab had the experience of the associated bank to the lab talk about putting in a biometric cash machine .
This lab specialises in biomedicine and so it was rather a shock to the bank in question when they had hundred of very qualified scientists signing a petition against the idea .
Why you make ask ?
Simple , they know the limits of biometric data and are ahead of the loop when it comes to it 's usefulness .
In a traditional set up if you lose your credit/debit card what happens ?
You contact the bank , they cancel the card , they give you a new one , End of story .
If your biometric data gets compromised what do you do then ? Sometimes it is better if people thought about the long term instead of the quick fix , but the truth of the matter is all this climate of fear , suspicion , and draconian security is all fueled by the industries that profit from them .
Is this any surprise to people ?
It is the same with spam email and viruses .
These are very simple problems to circumvent but there is a MASSIVE industry making sure no one ever does.Call me a cynic but that 's the way I see it .
'snuff said .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about a public (anonymised) repository of fingerprints.
The idea is this: I can't change my prints, nor can I get back control once the government has taken them.
But I could publish them to the world.
That makes the print very easy for anyone else to fake.
In other words, plausible deniability.Why stop there.. Post DNA to the web too ;)To my mind the who idea of biometrics as an absolute to your identity is bogus.
It is nuts to think that just because DNA is 'unique' you it makes it exclusive enough to be a guarantee of who you are.
Given time and technology and the descendants of the current DNA cloning technology they use to solve crimes being smaller, cheaper and portable how long will it be before DNA is realised to be THE most unreliable  source of exclusivity there is as EVERYONE leaves traces of their DNA everywhere they ever go.Think of it this way.
My brother who works in a top research Lab had the experience of the associated bank to the lab talk about putting in a biometric cash machine.
This lab specialises in biomedicine and so it was rather a shock to the bank in question when they had hundred of very qualified scientists signing a petition against the idea.
Why you make ask?
Simple, they know the limits of biometric data and are ahead of the loop when it comes to it's usefulness.
In a traditional set up if you lose your credit/debit card what happens?
You contact the bank, they cancel the card, they give you a new one, End of story.
If your biometric data gets compromised what do you do then?Sometimes it is better if people thought about the long term instead of the quick fix, but the truth of the matter is all this climate of fear , suspicion, and draconian security is all fueled  by the industries that profit from them.
Is this any surprise to people?
It is the same with spam email and viruses.
These are very simple problems to circumvent but there is a MASSIVE industry making sure no one ever does.Call me a cynic but that's the way I see it.
'snuff said.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360994</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360928</id>
	<title>Re:Fraud?</title>
	<author>nedlohs</author>
	<datestamp>1260200580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Note the word "alleged". They are accusing her of doing it in order illegally enter the country.</p><p>She obviously did impersonate someone, well at least claim to be someone who possibly doesn't exist at all, since otherwise she wouldn't be in the country.</p><p>It seems pretty cut and dry since she would also have had to use false information on the parts of the immigration form asking things like "what is your name?", "have you ever been deported?", and so on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Note the word " alleged " .
They are accusing her of doing it in order illegally enter the country.She obviously did impersonate someone , well at least claim to be someone who possibly does n't exist at all , since otherwise she would n't be in the country.It seems pretty cut and dry since she would also have had to use false information on the parts of the immigration form asking things like " what is your name ?
" , " have you ever been deported ?
" , and so on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Note the word "alleged".
They are accusing her of doing it in order illegally enter the country.She obviously did impersonate someone, well at least claim to be someone who possibly doesn't exist at all, since otherwise she wouldn't be in the country.It seems pretty cut and dry since she would also have had to use false information on the parts of the immigration form asking things like "what is your name?
", "have you ever been deported?
", and so on.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360692</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30362422</id>
	<title>Escalation???</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260215220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Time for some biometric escalation. Could iris scans be subverted as easily?"

How is iris scans an escalation, I have always proposed iris scans as I don't leave iris prints around myself and it is not likely to be used for anything but identification / verification.

Iris scans instead of fingerprints would be a huge victory for privacy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Time for some biometric escalation .
Could iris scans be subverted as easily ?
" How is iris scans an escalation , I have always proposed iris scans as I do n't leave iris prints around myself and it is not likely to be used for anything but identification / verification .
Iris scans instead of fingerprints would be a huge victory for privacy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Time for some biometric escalation.
Could iris scans be subverted as easily?
"

How is iris scans an escalation, I have always proposed iris scans as I don't leave iris prints around myself and it is not likely to be used for anything but identification / verification.
Iris scans instead of fingerprints would be a huge victory for privacy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361864</id>
	<title>did anybody wonder?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260209100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The techniques will become better over time and after a while, there will be better solutions to change finterprints. It's as always, if there is a way to secure something some will find a way to fool it. And it will not stop with it, iris scanning and even genetic fingerprints aren't really save for that matter.</p><p>cb</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The techniques will become better over time and after a while , there will be better solutions to change finterprints .
It 's as always , if there is a way to secure something some will find a way to fool it .
And it will not stop with it , iris scanning and even genetic fingerprints are n't really save for that matter.cb</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The techniques will become better over time and after a while, there will be better solutions to change finterprints.
It's as always, if there is a way to secure something some will find a way to fool it.
And it will not stop with it, iris scanning and even genetic fingerprints aren't really save for that matter.cb</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30365874</id>
	<title>Re:Shodan's retinal scanners can always be fooled</title>
	<author>SpoodyGoon</author>
	<datestamp>1260290460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You put just a little too much thought into this. I'm going to go hide now.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You put just a little too much thought into this .
I 'm going to go hide now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You put just a little too much thought into this.
I'm going to go hide now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360340</id>
	<title>Only a matter of time...</title>
	<author>DaRanged</author>
	<datestamp>1260196260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Brings a whole new meaning to the word hacking.  But in truth, how long will it be until &lt;favourite biometric bodypart&gt; can be swapped replaced 'a la' Minority Report?<br><br>As all kinds of technology improve, cheapen, become more accessible, so do the means to subvert them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Brings a whole new meaning to the word hacking .
But in truth , how long will it be until can be swapped replaced 'a la ' Minority Report ? As all kinds of technology improve , cheapen , become more accessible , so do the means to subvert them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Brings a whole new meaning to the word hacking.
But in truth, how long will it be until  can be swapped replaced 'a la' Minority Report?As all kinds of technology improve, cheapen, become more accessible, so do the means to subvert them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360848</id>
	<title>Yuo 7ail i7?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260199920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No matter how server crashes incompatibilities shower Don't just Lube. This can lead users', BigAzz, the goodwil7 too many rules and Posts. Therefore</htmltext>
<tokenext>No matter how server crashes incompatibilities shower Do n't just Lube .
This can lead users ' , BigAzz , the goodwil7 too many rules and Posts .
Therefore</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No matter how server crashes incompatibilities shower Don't just Lube.
This can lead users', BigAzz, the goodwil7 too many rules and Posts.
Therefore</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361252</id>
	<title>Re:Fraud?</title>
	<author>aukset</author>
	<datestamp>1260203520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Its not illegal to copy/forge a signature either, unless the purpose is to impersonate or defraud. Its called intent. It will llikely be more diffucult to prove intent than to prove the act itself, however. It is like the difference between copying someone's signature on a blank sheet of paper versus doing so on a check.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Its not illegal to copy/forge a signature either , unless the purpose is to impersonate or defraud .
Its called intent .
It will llikely be more diffucult to prove intent than to prove the act itself , however .
It is like the difference between copying someone 's signature on a blank sheet of paper versus doing so on a check .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Its not illegal to copy/forge a signature either, unless the purpose is to impersonate or defraud.
Its called intent.
It will llikely be more diffucult to prove intent than to prove the act itself, however.
It is like the difference between copying someone's signature on a blank sheet of paper versus doing so on a check.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360692</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360430</id>
	<title>Re:Watching 'Bladerunner' too many times?</title>
	<author>HTH NE1</author>
	<datestamp>1260196980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The tech for swapping fingerprints apparently exists.</p></div><p>The tech for swapping fingerprint <em>cards</em> has existed even longer. Sometimes it's the people taking the prints that swap them for you.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The tech for swapping fingerprints apparently exists.The tech for swapping fingerprint cards has existed even longer .
Sometimes it 's the people taking the prints that swap them for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The tech for swapping fingerprints apparently exists.The tech for swapping fingerprint cards has existed even longer.
Sometimes it's the people taking the prints that swap them for you.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361456</id>
	<title>Re:Watching 'Bladerunner' too many times?</title>
	<author>srothroc</author>
	<datestamp>1260204960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why swap out the eyeballs? Couldn't you get contacts that would change your irises?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why swap out the eyeballs ?
Could n't you get contacts that would change your irises ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why swap out the eyeballs?
Couldn't you get contacts that would change your irises?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30363246</id>
	<title>Wisdom follows, pay attention!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260270300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is an american company, whose name has not been revealed because of the FISA seal protecting them. They have a working prototype in fridge size of a spit-sample based rapid DNA analyzer, which works in just 3 minutes. It ignores the 96\% of DNA invariably common to all homo sapiens from yankee to bushman, korean to inca. The rest is analyzed and hashed into an S-key like sentence for display.</p><p>The device cannot reveal the full DNA analysis to outside display, only the hash, to protect privacy of health and genetic data. The hash display is done in either of two bit-wise equivalent format for easy human memorization. One mimics the traditional redskin names, like Sitting Bull Mighty Cloud Jumping Elk, the other imitates the long chinese names.</p><p>The US government plans to field this tech for union-wide mandatoy personal identification for all legal and fiscal matters as soon as the device can be shrinked to desktop size and made to work in the 1 minute, peferrably 30 seconds timeframe. The S-name will be your legal name and your legacy name (family name + given name) will be kept only for casual use.</p><p>A specialty of the recently built prototype is the ability to sense minute DNA contamination which indicates the person being identified had twin(s) in the same womb. This breakthrough is a big step, as it allows use of evidence in criminal proceedings. It is estimated first luggage-able devices or field trial will be delivered in 4,5 years at 675,000 USD apiece if all goes on track.</p><p>This makes fingerprints and iris scan useless an irrelevant!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is an american company , whose name has not been revealed because of the FISA seal protecting them .
They have a working prototype in fridge size of a spit-sample based rapid DNA analyzer , which works in just 3 minutes .
It ignores the 96 \ % of DNA invariably common to all homo sapiens from yankee to bushman , korean to inca .
The rest is analyzed and hashed into an S-key like sentence for display.The device can not reveal the full DNA analysis to outside display , only the hash , to protect privacy of health and genetic data .
The hash display is done in either of two bit-wise equivalent format for easy human memorization .
One mimics the traditional redskin names , like Sitting Bull Mighty Cloud Jumping Elk , the other imitates the long chinese names.The US government plans to field this tech for union-wide mandatoy personal identification for all legal and fiscal matters as soon as the device can be shrinked to desktop size and made to work in the 1 minute , peferrably 30 seconds timeframe .
The S-name will be your legal name and your legacy name ( family name + given name ) will be kept only for casual use.A specialty of the recently built prototype is the ability to sense minute DNA contamination which indicates the person being identified had twin ( s ) in the same womb .
This breakthrough is a big step , as it allows use of evidence in criminal proceedings .
It is estimated first luggage-able devices or field trial will be delivered in 4,5 years at 675,000 USD apiece if all goes on track.This makes fingerprints and iris scan useless an irrelevant !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is an american company, whose name has not been revealed because of the FISA seal protecting them.
They have a working prototype in fridge size of a spit-sample based rapid DNA analyzer, which works in just 3 minutes.
It ignores the 96\% of DNA invariably common to all homo sapiens from yankee to bushman, korean to inca.
The rest is analyzed and hashed into an S-key like sentence for display.The device cannot reveal the full DNA analysis to outside display, only the hash, to protect privacy of health and genetic data.
The hash display is done in either of two bit-wise equivalent format for easy human memorization.
One mimics the traditional redskin names, like Sitting Bull Mighty Cloud Jumping Elk, the other imitates the long chinese names.The US government plans to field this tech for union-wide mandatoy personal identification for all legal and fiscal matters as soon as the device can be shrinked to desktop size and made to work in the 1 minute, peferrably 30 seconds timeframe.
The S-name will be your legal name and your legacy name (family name + given name) will be kept only for casual use.A specialty of the recently built prototype is the ability to sense minute DNA contamination which indicates the person being identified had twin(s) in the same womb.
This breakthrough is a big step, as it allows use of evidence in criminal proceedings.
It is estimated first luggage-able devices or field trial will be delivered in 4,5 years at 675,000 USD apiece if all goes on track.This makes fingerprints and iris scan useless an irrelevant!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360570</id>
	<title>Never Say Never Again</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260197940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The movie "Never Say Never Again" clearly illustrated the shortcomings of iris scanning. That was back in the '80s. Pretty easy to fake the US President's iris and get the live warheads to replace the dummy ones. If USAF measures can be circumvented so easily then how can ordinary immigration officials deal with it?</p><p>I suppose there's an outside chance it could have all been fictional I guess. With all this reality TV it's so hard to tell what's real these days...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The movie " Never Say Never Again " clearly illustrated the shortcomings of iris scanning .
That was back in the '80s .
Pretty easy to fake the US President 's iris and get the live warheads to replace the dummy ones .
If USAF measures can be circumvented so easily then how can ordinary immigration officials deal with it ? I suppose there 's an outside chance it could have all been fictional I guess .
With all this reality TV it 's so hard to tell what 's real these days.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The movie "Never Say Never Again" clearly illustrated the shortcomings of iris scanning.
That was back in the '80s.
Pretty easy to fake the US President's iris and get the live warheads to replace the dummy ones.
If USAF measures can be circumvented so easily then how can ordinary immigration officials deal with it?I suppose there's an outside chance it could have all been fictional I guess.
With all this reality TV it's so hard to tell what's real these days...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360256</id>
	<title>Skip the prints and the eyes</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260195660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Brainwave scans are the way to go.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Brainwave scans are the way to go .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Brainwave scans are the way to go.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360838</id>
	<title>Re:What a security vulnerability!</title>
	<author>biryokumaru</author>
	<datestamp>1260199860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Actually, I've heard stories of rich folk in Central America who get car jacked, but have biometric locks, so the carjackers cut off their fingers.</p><p>It happens.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , I 've heard stories of rich folk in Central America who get car jacked , but have biometric locks , so the carjackers cut off their fingers.It happens .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, I've heard stories of rich folk in Central America who get car jacked, but have biometric locks, so the carjackers cut off their fingers.It happens.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360306</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360584</id>
	<title>Re:Did she fool anyone, though?</title>
	<author>Jah-Wren Ryel</author>
	<datestamp>1260198000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>From now on, when officials notice circular scars or other shaped scars around fingertips, they will probably have the person undergo further testing.</p> </div><p>However, their cost to check has now gone up by at least 2x, maybe even 10x - they need to manually inspect every person (you can't just check the negatives because if the faker happens to have passed through successfully in the past their 'new' prints will already be in the database).</p><p>And this is only one attack vector.  We've already seen the <a href="http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/01/02/woman-uses-tape-to-trick-biometric-airport-fingerprint-scan/" title="crunchgear.com">korean woman</a> [crunchgear.com] last year who used a practical application of the <a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/05/16/gummi\_bears\_defeat\_fingerprint\_sensors/" title="theregister.co.uk">gummy bear</a> [theregister.co.uk] trick to fool the japanese too.</p><p>The thing to remember is that these systems will only get less effective as time goes by.  All the hype when proposed about how great they are, for whatever intended purpose, represents the best they will ever be - the more familiarity people get with the systems, the more ways people will figure out how to circumvent them.</p><p>Kinda warms my freedom loving heart it does.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>From now on , when officials notice circular scars or other shaped scars around fingertips , they will probably have the person undergo further testing .
However , their cost to check has now gone up by at least 2x , maybe even 10x - they need to manually inspect every person ( you ca n't just check the negatives because if the faker happens to have passed through successfully in the past their 'new ' prints will already be in the database ) .And this is only one attack vector .
We 've already seen the korean woman [ crunchgear.com ] last year who used a practical application of the gummy bear [ theregister.co.uk ] trick to fool the japanese too.The thing to remember is that these systems will only get less effective as time goes by .
All the hype when proposed about how great they are , for whatever intended purpose , represents the best they will ever be - the more familiarity people get with the systems , the more ways people will figure out how to circumvent them.Kinda warms my freedom loving heart it does .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From now on, when officials notice circular scars or other shaped scars around fingertips, they will probably have the person undergo further testing.
However, their cost to check has now gone up by at least 2x, maybe even 10x - they need to manually inspect every person (you can't just check the negatives because if the faker happens to have passed through successfully in the past their 'new' prints will already be in the database).And this is only one attack vector.
We've already seen the korean woman [crunchgear.com] last year who used a practical application of the gummy bear [theregister.co.uk] trick to fool the japanese too.The thing to remember is that these systems will only get less effective as time goes by.
All the hype when proposed about how great they are, for whatever intended purpose, represents the best they will ever be - the more familiarity people get with the systems, the more ways people will figure out how to circumvent them.Kinda warms my freedom loving heart it does.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360324</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360396</id>
	<title>What about the disabled?</title>
	<author>Psaakyrn</author>
	<datestamp>1260196680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wouldn't fingerprinting fail spectacularly on people with no fingers? (e.g. Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker (for one hand), etc...)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Would n't fingerprinting fail spectacularly on people with no fingers ?
( e.g. Darth Vader , Luke Skywalker ( for one hand ) , etc... )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wouldn't fingerprinting fail spectacularly on people with no fingers?
(e.g. Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker (for one hand), etc...)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360328</id>
	<title>Both hands</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260196200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Fingerprint both hands. With digital scanning it's not that big of a deal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fingerprint both hands .
With digital scanning it 's not that big of a deal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fingerprint both hands.
With digital scanning it's not that big of a deal.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30362542</id>
	<title>Final Analysis: Learn and Adapt</title>
	<author>redblue</author>
	<datestamp>1260303240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To combat the rising tide of surgically transplanted organs by alien terrorists what is needed is a... probe<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...for an organ they dare not change. Like the prostate area.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To combat the rising tide of surgically transplanted organs by alien terrorists what is needed is a... probe ...for an organ they dare not change .
Like the prostate area .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To combat the rising tide of surgically transplanted organs by alien terrorists what is needed is a... probe ...for an organ they dare not change.
Like the prostate area.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360560</id>
	<title>Re:Woah</title>
	<author>girlintraining</author>
	<datestamp>1260197820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A lack of fingerprints would be noticed. The mafia did this for awhile by burning their fingerprints off with a hot iron so as not to leave them behind at the crime scene. The FBI later discovered that as fingerprints are based on deeper layers of the skin than what's on the surface, even a person who had done thisstill left a distinctive mark that could be identified -- although it was more difficult.</p><p>It would be a lot easier to use a clear plastic covering (the "silly putty finger" school of thought) or skin grown in a petri dish over a composite material with a different imprint and then grafting it over your skin -- such temporary grafts survive a limited period of time before corroding. essentially, you make thin slits in existing tissue and then 'stitch' the graft in. Remember that the graft only has to survive for a day. Micro-perforations would make it a minimally-invasive procedure, with little scarring once the grafts have deteriorated.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A lack of fingerprints would be noticed .
The mafia did this for awhile by burning their fingerprints off with a hot iron so as not to leave them behind at the crime scene .
The FBI later discovered that as fingerprints are based on deeper layers of the skin than what 's on the surface , even a person who had done thisstill left a distinctive mark that could be identified -- although it was more difficult.It would be a lot easier to use a clear plastic covering ( the " silly putty finger " school of thought ) or skin grown in a petri dish over a composite material with a different imprint and then grafting it over your skin -- such temporary grafts survive a limited period of time before corroding .
essentially , you make thin slits in existing tissue and then 'stitch ' the graft in .
Remember that the graft only has to survive for a day .
Micro-perforations would make it a minimally-invasive procedure , with little scarring once the grafts have deteriorated .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A lack of fingerprints would be noticed.
The mafia did this for awhile by burning their fingerprints off with a hot iron so as not to leave them behind at the crime scene.
The FBI later discovered that as fingerprints are based on deeper layers of the skin than what's on the surface, even a person who had done thisstill left a distinctive mark that could be identified -- although it was more difficult.It would be a lot easier to use a clear plastic covering (the "silly putty finger" school of thought) or skin grown in a petri dish over a composite material with a different imprint and then grafting it over your skin -- such temporary grafts survive a limited period of time before corroding.
essentially, you make thin slits in existing tissue and then 'stitch' the graft in.
Remember that the graft only has to survive for a day.
Micro-perforations would make it a minimally-invasive procedure, with little scarring once the grafts have deteriorated.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360310</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360922</id>
	<title>Re:Watching 'Bladerunner' too many times?</title>
	<author>drijen</author>
	<datestamp>1260200580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I recall reading about a number of the Mobster era convicts, (Alvin Karpis, in particular, IIRC), that would:<p>
Restrict blood flow to their finger tips<br> 
Shoot the ends up with cocaine<br> 
Shave off the fingerprints with a knife</p><p>

Voila, no more prints.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I recall reading about a number of the Mobster era convicts , ( Alvin Karpis , in particular , IIRC ) , that would : Restrict blood flow to their finger tips Shoot the ends up with cocaine Shave off the fingerprints with a knife Voila , no more prints .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I recall reading about a number of the Mobster era convicts, (Alvin Karpis, in particular, IIRC), that would:
Restrict blood flow to their finger tips 
Shoot the ends up with cocaine 
Shave off the fingerprints with a knife

Voila, no more prints.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361652</id>
	<title>Subverting iris scans</title>
	<author>dido</author>
	<datestamp>1260206700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hello, Mr. Yukamoto, and welcome back to the GAP!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hello , Mr. Yukamoto , and welcome back to the GAP !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hello, Mr. Yukamoto, and welcome back to the GAP!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30363728</id>
	<title>Iris size: Trivial</title>
	<author>DrYak</author>
	<datestamp>1260277260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Also the eye may dilate as you kill them which will also fuck the result.</p></div><p>Mydriasis happens with death, indeed.<br>But it's almost trivial to induce myosis instead, using the proper chemicals. (Cocaine, as an example of something which won't be difficult to obtain for would-be criminals. As a bonus, this same substances doubles as a way to kill the victim through overdoses AND a way to preserve the iris in myosis).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Also the eye may dilate as you kill them which will also fuck the result.Mydriasis happens with death , indeed.But it 's almost trivial to induce myosis instead , using the proper chemicals .
( Cocaine , as an example of something which wo n't be difficult to obtain for would-be criminals .
As a bonus , this same substances doubles as a way to kill the victim through overdoses AND a way to preserve the iris in myosis ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Also the eye may dilate as you kill them which will also fuck the result.Mydriasis happens with death, indeed.But it's almost trivial to induce myosis instead, using the proper chemicals.
(Cocaine, as an example of something which won't be difficult to obtain for would-be criminals.
As a bonus, this same substances doubles as a way to kill the victim through overdoses AND a way to preserve the iris in myosis).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360362</id>
	<title>Why would she do that?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260196440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The thing they never talk about in these stories is what would drive someone to go to such lengths? There's rarely even a single quote from the person arrested, and yet the police can say whatever they like. What does that say about a society?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The thing they never talk about in these stories is what would drive someone to go to such lengths ?
There 's rarely even a single quote from the person arrested , and yet the police can say whatever they like .
What does that say about a society ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The thing they never talk about in these stories is what would drive someone to go to such lengths?
There's rarely even a single quote from the person arrested, and yet the police can say whatever they like.
What does that say about a society?
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361834</id>
	<title>Time for some biometric escalation.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260208800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hear, hear, I am eagerly waiting for my rectal probe at every immigration process...no jokes about my orientation, please.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hear , hear , I am eagerly waiting for my rectal probe at every immigration process...no jokes about my orientation , please .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hear, hear, I am eagerly waiting for my rectal probe at every immigration process...no jokes about my orientation, please.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30363254</id>
	<title>Re:Watching 'Bladerunner' too many times?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260270480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is no need to swap eyeballs. It has long been technically possible to tattoo lines/patterns on the retina (don't have time to find the link, but there's some information on www.bme.com).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is no need to swap eyeballs .
It has long been technically possible to tattoo lines/patterns on the retina ( do n't have time to find the link , but there 's some information on www.bme.com ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is no need to swap eyeballs.
It has long been technically possible to tattoo lines/patterns on the retina (don't have time to find the link, but there's some information on www.bme.com).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30363282</id>
	<title>Eww!</title>
	<author>zigge</author>
	<datestamp>1260271080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>i'm not using any fingerprint scanner - not with all these swine flu's going around!</htmltext>
<tokenext>i 'm not using any fingerprint scanner - not with all these swine flu 's going around !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i'm not using any fingerprint scanner - not with all these swine flu's going around!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360498</id>
	<title>Re:long term identity subversion prevention</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260197400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and suppose I leave my community to go walkabout?</p><p>Honestly, if you want all your "friends and neighbors agree you really are Bob, then you're Bob regardless of what you do, etc.", you could also argue that if a group of people argue that black is white and white is black, that should be so. There are many examples of rule by mass that doesn't end up well, sometimes it must be best to follow your own gut, at least you won't have your conscience on you afterward.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and suppose I leave my community to go walkabout ? Honestly , if you want all your " friends and neighbors agree you really are Bob , then you 're Bob regardless of what you do , etc .
" , you could also argue that if a group of people argue that black is white and white is black , that should be so .
There are many examples of rule by mass that does n't end up well , sometimes it must be best to follow your own gut , at least you wo n't have your conscience on you afterward .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and suppose I leave my community to go walkabout?Honestly, if you want all your "friends and neighbors agree you really are Bob, then you're Bob regardless of what you do, etc.
", you could also argue that if a group of people argue that black is white and white is black, that should be so.
There are many examples of rule by mass that doesn't end up well, sometimes it must be best to follow your own gut, at least you won't have your conscience on you afterward.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361722</id>
	<title>Re:Did she fool anyone, though?</title>
	<author>MillionthMonkey</author>
	<datestamp>1260207420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>A guy at work was always talking about using gummy bears to commit the perfect crime. You somehow make a mold of someone's fingerprint using that gummy bear material. Then you use it on a fingerprint scanner, which gets fooled by it, and it lets you in. Then, get this- you <i>eat</i> the gummy bear fingerprint mold, and <i>permanently</i> destroy the evidence of your intrusion.
<br> <br>
That always struck me as a little improbable. You mean you're just going to eat that thing right after you pressed it against a disgusting fingerprint scanner?</htmltext>
<tokenext>A guy at work was always talking about using gummy bears to commit the perfect crime .
You somehow make a mold of someone 's fingerprint using that gummy bear material .
Then you use it on a fingerprint scanner , which gets fooled by it , and it lets you in .
Then , get this- you eat the gummy bear fingerprint mold , and permanently destroy the evidence of your intrusion .
That always struck me as a little improbable .
You mean you 're just going to eat that thing right after you pressed it against a disgusting fingerprint scanner ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A guy at work was always talking about using gummy bears to commit the perfect crime.
You somehow make a mold of someone's fingerprint using that gummy bear material.
Then you use it on a fingerprint scanner, which gets fooled by it, and it lets you in.
Then, get this- you eat the gummy bear fingerprint mold, and permanently destroy the evidence of your intrusion.
That always struck me as a little improbable.
You mean you're just going to eat that thing right after you pressed it against a disgusting fingerprint scanner?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360584</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30362968</id>
	<title>Re:What about publishing them openly?</title>
	<author>TorKlingberg</author>
	<datestamp>1260266220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How is that going to help you when they refuse to let you in at the border check?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How is that going to help you when they refuse to let you in at the border check ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How is that going to help you when they refuse to let you in at the border check?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360994</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360518</id>
	<title>Still the same fingerprints...?</title>
	<author>TangoMargarine</author>
	<datestamp>1260197520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So the only way this person's surgery is actually worth anything is if fingerprint scans care which hand the prints are one? I would think that if you switched your hands' fingerprints, you'd still have the same prints, which could be picked up easily enough as long as the scan tests the prints against your right and left hands both.</p><p>Not to mention, as I'm sure someone has by now, they would probably notice the scars. I would think it would be more worth it to get someone <b>else's</b> fingerprints, if you could.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So the only way this person 's surgery is actually worth anything is if fingerprint scans care which hand the prints are one ?
I would think that if you switched your hands ' fingerprints , you 'd still have the same prints , which could be picked up easily enough as long as the scan tests the prints against your right and left hands both.Not to mention , as I 'm sure someone has by now , they would probably notice the scars .
I would think it would be more worth it to get someone else 's fingerprints , if you could .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So the only way this person's surgery is actually worth anything is if fingerprint scans care which hand the prints are one?
I would think that if you switched your hands' fingerprints, you'd still have the same prints, which could be picked up easily enough as long as the scan tests the prints against your right and left hands both.Not to mention, as I'm sure someone has by now, they would probably notice the scars.
I would think it would be more worth it to get someone else's fingerprints, if you could.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360582</id>
	<title>Re:Watching 'Bladerunner' too many times?</title>
	<author>lobiusmoop</author>
	<datestamp>1260198000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think you might be thinking about 'Minority Report' instead of 'Blade Runner' in terms of retinal scanning.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think you might be thinking about 'Minority Report ' instead of 'Blade Runner ' in terms of retinal scanning .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think you might be thinking about 'Minority Report' instead of 'Blade Runner' in terms of retinal scanning.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30363866</id>
	<title>That was really Rong of her to do that!</title>
	<author>pinkushun</author>
	<datestamp>1260279060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No seriously this is <i> no raughing matter</i> ^.^</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No seriously this is no raughing matter ^ . ^</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No seriously this is  no raughing matter ^.^</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360522</id>
	<title>Re:Woah</title>
	<author>LandGator</author>
	<datestamp>1260197520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Fresh pineapple juice does the trick. Makes your fingers taste better, too.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Fresh pineapple juice does the trick .
Makes your fingers taste better , too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fresh pineapple juice does the trick.
Makes your fingers taste better, too.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360310</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360680</id>
	<title>Re:What about the disabled?</title>
	<author>abigor</author>
	<datestamp>1260198660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, Darth Vader has been able to slip undetected into numerous Western democracies for this very reason.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , Darth Vader has been able to slip undetected into numerous Western democracies for this very reason .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, Darth Vader has been able to slip undetected into numerous Western democracies for this very reason.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360396</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360670</id>
	<title>Life imitates art</title>
	<author>inviolet</author>
	<datestamp>1260198600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So I gather it's time to upgrade our biometric identification to the new "colonic map" technology?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So I gather it 's time to upgrade our biometric identification to the new " colonic map " technology ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So I gather it's time to upgrade our biometric identification to the new "colonic map" technology?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360296</id>
	<title>more on topic than xkcd !</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260195960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>more on topic than xkcd !<br>http://comicjk.com/comic.php/306</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>more on topic than xkcd ! http : //comicjk.com/comic.php/306</tokentext>
<sentencetext>more on topic than xkcd !http://comicjk.com/comic.php/306</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30363996</id>
	<title>Re:Did she fool anyone, though?</title>
	<author>Foolicious</author>
	<datestamp>1260280800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That always struck me as a little improbable. You mean you're just going to eat that thing right after you pressed it against a disgusting fingerprint scanner?</p></div><p>Totally.  No way the gazillions of dollars or revenge or whatever you'd get from your perfect crime would be worth that.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That always struck me as a little improbable .
You mean you 're just going to eat that thing right after you pressed it against a disgusting fingerprint scanner ? Totally .
No way the gazillions of dollars or revenge or whatever you 'd get from your perfect crime would be worth that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That always struck me as a little improbable.
You mean you're just going to eat that thing right after you pressed it against a disgusting fingerprint scanner?Totally.
No way the gazillions of dollars or revenge or whatever you'd get from your perfect crime would be worth that.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360450</id>
	<title>Re:Why would she do that?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260197100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What does that say about a society?</p></div><p>That the lies criminals tell aren't all that interesting?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What does that say about a society ? That the lies criminals tell are n't all that interesting ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What does that say about a society?That the lies criminals tell aren't all that interesting?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361286</id>
	<title>do77</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260203700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>then JorD4n Hubbard</htmltext>
<tokenext>then JorD4n Hubbard</tokentext>
<sentencetext>then JorD4n Hubbard</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361524</id>
	<title>Re:Watching 'Bladerunner' too many times?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260205560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>no but a contact lens might do the trick... might be a little more practical than swapping out an eye ball as well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>no but a contact lens might do the trick... might be a little more practical than swapping out an eye ball as well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>no but a contact lens might do the trick... might be a little more practical than swapping out an eye ball as well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361734</id>
	<title>Re:What about the disabled?</title>
	<author>Falconhell</author>
	<datestamp>1260207480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeh, that Dick Chaney disguise is a ripper!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeh , that Dick Chaney disguise is a ripper !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeh, that Dick Chaney disguise is a ripper!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360680</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360310</id>
	<title>Woah</title>
	<author>Idiomatick</author>
	<datestamp>1260196080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That is really excessive. You can melt your fingerprints off with battery acid<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... or like any harsh chemical. surgically swapping them sounds way harder @\_@</htmltext>
<tokenext>That is really excessive .
You can melt your fingerprints off with battery acid ... or like any harsh chemical .
surgically swapping them sounds way harder @ \ _ @</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is really excessive.
You can melt your fingerprints off with battery acid ... or like any harsh chemical.
surgically swapping them sounds way harder @\_@</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30366802</id>
	<title>Re:Did she fool anyone, though?</title>
	<author>vadim\_t</author>
	<datestamp>1260294300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>That always struck me as a little improbable. You mean you're just going to eat that thing right after you pressed it<br>against a disgusting fingerprint scanner?</p></div></blockquote><p>Won't most people end up doing that anyway?</p><p>Come to work, put the finger on the scanner, go to the cafeteria, grab a donut or something, eat it.</p><p>If the thought of eating something that touched a fingerprint scanner disgusts you, avoid thinking too much of all the crap you touch with the fingers every day, or you might vomit.</p><p>Just a few examples: your car's wheel is probably very seldom cleaned, tests have showed that keyboards have more germs on them than toilet seats, any banknote or coin you have may have passed by hundreds of other owners sick with who knows what and been dropped on a large variety of surfaces, any door handles you touch may have bacteria left by 20 other people, and so on.</p><p>With all of that, I don't think eating a gummi bear that touched a fingerprint scanner is going to add that much extra danger, in comparisons to the benefits that could be conferred by "the perfect crime"</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That always struck me as a little improbable .
You mean you 're just going to eat that thing right after you pressed itagainst a disgusting fingerprint scanner ? Wo n't most people end up doing that anyway ? Come to work , put the finger on the scanner , go to the cafeteria , grab a donut or something , eat it.If the thought of eating something that touched a fingerprint scanner disgusts you , avoid thinking too much of all the crap you touch with the fingers every day , or you might vomit.Just a few examples : your car 's wheel is probably very seldom cleaned , tests have showed that keyboards have more germs on them than toilet seats , any banknote or coin you have may have passed by hundreds of other owners sick with who knows what and been dropped on a large variety of surfaces , any door handles you touch may have bacteria left by 20 other people , and so on.With all of that , I do n't think eating a gummi bear that touched a fingerprint scanner is going to add that much extra danger , in comparisons to the benefits that could be conferred by " the perfect crime "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That always struck me as a little improbable.
You mean you're just going to eat that thing right after you pressed itagainst a disgusting fingerprint scanner?Won't most people end up doing that anyway?Come to work, put the finger on the scanner, go to the cafeteria, grab a donut or something, eat it.If the thought of eating something that touched a fingerprint scanner disgusts you, avoid thinking too much of all the crap you touch with the fingers every day, or you might vomit.Just a few examples: your car's wheel is probably very seldom cleaned, tests have showed that keyboards have more germs on them than toilet seats, any banknote or coin you have may have passed by hundreds of other owners sick with who knows what and been dropped on a large variety of surfaces, any door handles you touch may have bacteria left by 20 other people, and so on.With all of that, I don't think eating a gummi bear that touched a fingerprint scanner is going to add that much extra danger, in comparisons to the benefits that could be conferred by "the perfect crime"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30362942</id>
	<title>Re:What a security vulnerability!</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1260265920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Pretty much that. All it proves is that you can become "not you", not that you can become someone else. It works to avoid a positive match, but it won't work to create a false positive match.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Pretty much that .
All it proves is that you can become " not you " , not that you can become someone else .
It works to avoid a positive match , but it wo n't work to create a false positive match .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pretty much that.
All it proves is that you can become "not you", not that you can become someone else.
It works to avoid a positive match, but it won't work to create a false positive match.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360306</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361442</id>
	<title>Easy enough...</title>
	<author>hyades1</author>
	<datestamp>1260204900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> If your only objective was to stop your retinal scan from being successfully compared to one on record, I'd think a little mild laser surgery would solve the problem. </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If your only objective was to stop your retinal scan from being successfully compared to one on record , I 'd think a little mild laser surgery would solve the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> If your only objective was to stop your retinal scan from being successfully compared to one on record, I'd think a little mild laser surgery would solve the problem. </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360324</id>
	<title>Did she fool anyone, though?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260196140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>From TFA:<p><div class="quote"><p>Japanese newspapers said police had noticed that Ms Lin's fingers had unnatural scars when she was arrested last month for allegedly faking a marriage to a Japanese man.</p></div><p>
Seems like until they can get rid of the circular scars around their fingertips, they aren't going to fool anyone.  From now on, when officials notice circular scars or other shaped scars around fingertips, they will probably have the person undergo further testing.
<br> <br>
As far as iris switching...I don't think so.  I have a feeling that the permanent blindness that likely follows(though I am not an ophthalmologist, so I can't be sure as to what is possible) will override any benefits that come from the short term gains of biometrics trickery.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>From TFA : Japanese newspapers said police had noticed that Ms Lin 's fingers had unnatural scars when she was arrested last month for allegedly faking a marriage to a Japanese man .
Seems like until they can get rid of the circular scars around their fingertips , they are n't going to fool anyone .
From now on , when officials notice circular scars or other shaped scars around fingertips , they will probably have the person undergo further testing .
As far as iris switching...I do n't think so .
I have a feeling that the permanent blindness that likely follows ( though I am not an ophthalmologist , so I ca n't be sure as to what is possible ) will override any benefits that come from the short term gains of biometrics trickery .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From TFA:Japanese newspapers said police had noticed that Ms Lin's fingers had unnatural scars when she was arrested last month for allegedly faking a marriage to a Japanese man.
Seems like until they can get rid of the circular scars around their fingertips, they aren't going to fool anyone.
From now on, when officials notice circular scars or other shaped scars around fingertips, they will probably have the person undergo further testing.
As far as iris switching...I don't think so.
I have a feeling that the permanent blindness that likely follows(though I am not an ophthalmologist, so I can't be sure as to what is possible) will override any benefits that come from the short term gains of biometrics trickery.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360988</id>
	<title>Re:long term identity subversion prevention</title>
	<author>shentino</author>
	<datestamp>1260201120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Which works just fine up until the point that everyone is bribed to say something.</p><p>Or maybe Bob just did something so apparently horrible that everyone decides to lynch him by refusing to vouch for him.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Which works just fine up until the point that everyone is bribed to say something.Or maybe Bob just did something so apparently horrible that everyone decides to lynch him by refusing to vouch for him .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Which works just fine up until the point that everyone is bribed to say something.Or maybe Bob just did something so apparently horrible that everyone decides to lynch him by refusing to vouch for him.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361892</id>
	<title>Re:Shodan's retinal scanners can always be fooled</title>
	<author>Dan541</author>
	<datestamp>1260209220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, because when you peer into something your eye adapts for the darkness so the person would need to be peering into something of equal darkness as you kill them so the eye stays at the optimal configuration. Otherwise the scan will differ enough to fail.</p><p>Also the eye may dilate as you kill them which will also fuck the result.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , because when you peer into something your eye adapts for the darkness so the person would need to be peering into something of equal darkness as you kill them so the eye stays at the optimal configuration .
Otherwise the scan will differ enough to fail.Also the eye may dilate as you kill them which will also fuck the result .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, because when you peer into something your eye adapts for the darkness so the person would need to be peering into something of equal darkness as you kill them so the eye stays at the optimal configuration.
Otherwise the scan will differ enough to fail.Also the eye may dilate as you kill them which will also fuck the result.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360258</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360656</id>
	<title>Re:long term identity subversion prevention</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260198480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What cannot be faked is what ones peers and friends agree upon regarding who an individual really is, and that the human in wuestion really is the person they agree it is. If all the friends and neighbors agree you really are Bob, then you're Bob regardless of what you do, or what data is stored in electronic systems. This is an unwieldy (nearly impossible) metric for access to a bar, authentication for into services, permission to drive, or asserting your ID at the bank to get your money. However, at its heart, community consistency could be the unalterable root from which all the other identification methods would rely upon. Basically one can create all kinds of electronic, physical, and technology based systems that will need to get reset when they are faked or forged or incorrect. To rely on other electronic systems for that reset is flawed and misses the essential nature of how people understand and use interpersonal identity.</p></div><p>I disagree. Community relationships can be forged just as easily (if not easier) than biometrics in every sense.
<br>
First, you have to ask yourself "which community?" With modern transportation, Bob's community could easily span his state. With modern communication, Bob's community could span the entire world. Concepts of traditional associations and communities are in a state of constant flux. To Bob's closest friends, he may be a blob of text. It's entirely possible that Bob goes throughout life without anybody ever truly knowing him. And even if he develops close relationships, they may be difficult to extract and correlate enough to develop any serious sense of him. Just go read an obituary<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... those are a person's closest contacts giving their most sincere impressions of that person. Do you feel like you really know him after reading one? Is it really likely that they do?
<br>
Then, you have to ask yourself "what consistency?" To his <em>World of Warcraft</em> pals he may be a <a href="http://www.toynk.com/product/MEZ-20080-C/Family\_Guy\_Series\_8\_Figure\_Secret\_Agent\_Astronaut\_Millionaire\_Peter.html" title="toynk.com">secret agent astronaut millionaire</a> [toynk.com]. To his Facebook friends, he may seem a fun, insightful guy who loves to play sports. To his parents, whom he visits on holidays, he might be a successful banker. To his landlord, he might be a deadbeat who lost his banking job in the recession. All of these personas are maintainable and verifiable in the context of his community relationships.
<br>
So bring forgery into account. Online, forgery is easy, as long as there's internal consistency with his community. In person is more difficult, but there are physical look-alikes and actors who <em>could</em> pull it off. Someone claiming to be Bob could completely redefine his community impression with enough determination. Point is, someone can easily pretend to be Bob, with or without his blessing, in any of his community relationships if they devote enough time and circumstance works in their favor.
<br>
So what really <em>is</em> a person's identity? It's not community relationships any more than it's biometrics. All of those are third-person impressions of an organism, and they only certify identity through temporal and physical correlation of their data. The only physical identity that <em>is</em> Bob is his brain, which (for now) cannot be duplicated and (spiritually) will never be (if that's the kind of thing you believe in). Even then, Bob can change in an instant with brain trauma<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... a complete rewiring!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... but it's still Bob, from society's (and the law's) point of view.
<br>
His identity is not absolutely verifiable for the same reason it's unique<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... it resides in a medium that is neither fully understood nor fully expressible. For all practical purposes, Bob will remain the sum of his parts, both socially and biometrically. Our ability to gauge Bob, like our ability to impersonate him, is based squarely on our perceptive capabilities and our time investment, and biometrics (especially retinal scans and DNA prototyping) are pretty damned capable.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What can not be faked is what ones peers and friends agree upon regarding who an individual really is , and that the human in wuestion really is the person they agree it is .
If all the friends and neighbors agree you really are Bob , then you 're Bob regardless of what you do , or what data is stored in electronic systems .
This is an unwieldy ( nearly impossible ) metric for access to a bar , authentication for into services , permission to drive , or asserting your ID at the bank to get your money .
However , at its heart , community consistency could be the unalterable root from which all the other identification methods would rely upon .
Basically one can create all kinds of electronic , physical , and technology based systems that will need to get reset when they are faked or forged or incorrect .
To rely on other electronic systems for that reset is flawed and misses the essential nature of how people understand and use interpersonal identity.I disagree .
Community relationships can be forged just as easily ( if not easier ) than biometrics in every sense .
First , you have to ask yourself " which community ?
" With modern transportation , Bob 's community could easily span his state .
With modern communication , Bob 's community could span the entire world .
Concepts of traditional associations and communities are in a state of constant flux .
To Bob 's closest friends , he may be a blob of text .
It 's entirely possible that Bob goes throughout life without anybody ever truly knowing him .
And even if he develops close relationships , they may be difficult to extract and correlate enough to develop any serious sense of him .
Just go read an obituary ... those are a person 's closest contacts giving their most sincere impressions of that person .
Do you feel like you really know him after reading one ?
Is it really likely that they do ?
Then , you have to ask yourself " what consistency ?
" To his World of Warcraft pals he may be a secret agent astronaut millionaire [ toynk.com ] .
To his Facebook friends , he may seem a fun , insightful guy who loves to play sports .
To his parents , whom he visits on holidays , he might be a successful banker .
To his landlord , he might be a deadbeat who lost his banking job in the recession .
All of these personas are maintainable and verifiable in the context of his community relationships .
So bring forgery into account .
Online , forgery is easy , as long as there 's internal consistency with his community .
In person is more difficult , but there are physical look-alikes and actors who could pull it off .
Someone claiming to be Bob could completely redefine his community impression with enough determination .
Point is , someone can easily pretend to be Bob , with or without his blessing , in any of his community relationships if they devote enough time and circumstance works in their favor .
So what really is a person 's identity ?
It 's not community relationships any more than it 's biometrics .
All of those are third-person impressions of an organism , and they only certify identity through temporal and physical correlation of their data .
The only physical identity that is Bob is his brain , which ( for now ) can not be duplicated and ( spiritually ) will never be ( if that 's the kind of thing you believe in ) .
Even then , Bob can change in an instant with brain trauma ... a complete rewiring !
... but it 's still Bob , from society 's ( and the law 's ) point of view .
His identity is not absolutely verifiable for the same reason it 's unique ... it resides in a medium that is neither fully understood nor fully expressible .
For all practical purposes , Bob will remain the sum of his parts , both socially and biometrically .
Our ability to gauge Bob , like our ability to impersonate him , is based squarely on our perceptive capabilities and our time investment , and biometrics ( especially retinal scans and DNA prototyping ) are pretty damned capable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What cannot be faked is what ones peers and friends agree upon regarding who an individual really is, and that the human in wuestion really is the person they agree it is.
If all the friends and neighbors agree you really are Bob, then you're Bob regardless of what you do, or what data is stored in electronic systems.
This is an unwieldy (nearly impossible) metric for access to a bar, authentication for into services, permission to drive, or asserting your ID at the bank to get your money.
However, at its heart, community consistency could be the unalterable root from which all the other identification methods would rely upon.
Basically one can create all kinds of electronic, physical, and technology based systems that will need to get reset when they are faked or forged or incorrect.
To rely on other electronic systems for that reset is flawed and misses the essential nature of how people understand and use interpersonal identity.I disagree.
Community relationships can be forged just as easily (if not easier) than biometrics in every sense.
First, you have to ask yourself "which community?
" With modern transportation, Bob's community could easily span his state.
With modern communication, Bob's community could span the entire world.
Concepts of traditional associations and communities are in a state of constant flux.
To Bob's closest friends, he may be a blob of text.
It's entirely possible that Bob goes throughout life without anybody ever truly knowing him.
And even if he develops close relationships, they may be difficult to extract and correlate enough to develop any serious sense of him.
Just go read an obituary ... those are a person's closest contacts giving their most sincere impressions of that person.
Do you feel like you really know him after reading one?
Is it really likely that they do?
Then, you have to ask yourself "what consistency?
" To his World of Warcraft pals he may be a secret agent astronaut millionaire [toynk.com].
To his Facebook friends, he may seem a fun, insightful guy who loves to play sports.
To his parents, whom he visits on holidays, he might be a successful banker.
To his landlord, he might be a deadbeat who lost his banking job in the recession.
All of these personas are maintainable and verifiable in the context of his community relationships.
So bring forgery into account.
Online, forgery is easy, as long as there's internal consistency with his community.
In person is more difficult, but there are physical look-alikes and actors who could pull it off.
Someone claiming to be Bob could completely redefine his community impression with enough determination.
Point is, someone can easily pretend to be Bob, with or without his blessing, in any of his community relationships if they devote enough time and circumstance works in their favor.
So what really is a person's identity?
It's not community relationships any more than it's biometrics.
All of those are third-person impressions of an organism, and they only certify identity through temporal and physical correlation of their data.
The only physical identity that is Bob is his brain, which (for now) cannot be duplicated and (spiritually) will never be (if that's the kind of thing you believe in).
Even then, Bob can change in an instant with brain trauma ... a complete rewiring!
... but it's still Bob, from society's (and the law's) point of view.
His identity is not absolutely verifiable for the same reason it's unique ... it resides in a medium that is neither fully understood nor fully expressible.
For all practical purposes, Bob will remain the sum of his parts, both socially and biometrically.
Our ability to gauge Bob, like our ability to impersonate him, is based squarely on our perceptive capabilities and our time investment, and biometrics (especially retinal scans and DNA prototyping) are pretty damned capable.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360692</id>
	<title>Fraud?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260198780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is it really fraud? Is there some promise that everyone has made to never make alterations to their bodies?</p><p>(I think it's dumb, but I don't see how it is fraud, she didn't actually impersonate anyone or anything)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is it really fraud ?
Is there some promise that everyone has made to never make alterations to their bodies ?
( I think it 's dumb , but I do n't see how it is fraud , she did n't actually impersonate anyone or anything )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is it really fraud?
Is there some promise that everyone has made to never make alterations to their bodies?
(I think it's dumb, but I don't see how it is fraud, she didn't actually impersonate anyone or anything)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360280</id>
	<title>Watching 'Bladerunner' too many times?</title>
	<author>ColdWetDog</author>
	<datestamp>1260195780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The tech for swapping fingerprints apparently exists.  I don't know anybody swapping out eyeballs.<br> <br>
However, the open question that TFA brings up is whether or not you can skin graft <i>somebody elses</i> fingerprints on to you. (Or vice versa).  You can do allograft skin grafts, at least temporarily, so it's feasible.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The tech for swapping fingerprints apparently exists .
I do n't know anybody swapping out eyeballs .
However , the open question that TFA brings up is whether or not you can skin graft somebody elses fingerprints on to you .
( Or vice versa ) .
You can do allograft skin grafts , at least temporarily , so it 's feasible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The tech for swapping fingerprints apparently exists.
I don't know anybody swapping out eyeballs.
However, the open question that TFA brings up is whether or not you can skin graft somebody elses fingerprints on to you.
(Or vice versa).
You can do allograft skin grafts, at least temporarily, so it's feasible.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30364228</id>
	<title>Re:Did she fool anyone, though?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260282660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>15 second rule</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>15 second rule</tokentext>
<sentencetext>15 second rule</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30365688</id>
	<title>Re:Did she fool anyone, though?</title>
	<author>OwMyBrain</author>
	<datestamp>1260289740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That always struck me as a little improbable. You mean you're just going to eat that thing right after you pressed it against a disgusting fingerprint scanner?</p></div><p>Sure! You just sterilize it with some vodka.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That always struck me as a little improbable .
You mean you 're just going to eat that thing right after you pressed it against a disgusting fingerprint scanner ? Sure !
You just sterilize it with some vodka .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That always struck me as a little improbable.
You mean you're just going to eat that thing right after you pressed it against a disgusting fingerprint scanner?Sure!
You just sterilize it with some vodka.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361406</id>
	<title>The obvious answer?</title>
	<author>Concerned Onlooker</author>
	<datestamp>1260204600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would have thought the answer to subverting retinal scans would have been suggested by the original story:  Just cross your eyes.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would have thought the answer to subverting retinal scans would have been suggested by the original story : Just cross your eyes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would have thought the answer to subverting retinal scans would have been suggested by the original story:  Just cross your eyes.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360332</id>
	<title>long term identity subversion prevention</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260196200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The only real identity that is immune from subversion is consistent, community agreement.</p><p>What I mean by this is that every piece of data measured can be faked, copied, or altered in the database against which the measurement is checked.  DNA can be planted, id cards will be sold on black markets and faked, biometrics can be later changed or forged.  The measured data in the database against which identity is checked can be altered - *all* the technology-based methods for ID have vectors of attack.</p><p>What cannot be faked is what ones peers and friends agree upon regarding who an individual really is, and that the human in wuestion really is the person they agree it is.  If all the friends and neighbors agree you really are Bob, then you're Bob regardless of what you do, or what data is stored in electronic systems.  This is an unwieldy (nearly impossible) metric for access to a bar, authentication for into services, permission to drive, or asserting your ID at the bank to get your money.  However, at its heart, community consistency could be the unalterable root from which all the other identification methods would rely upon.  Basically one can create all kinds of electronic, physical, and technology based systems that will need to get reset when they are faked or forged or incorrect.  To rely on other electronic systems for that reset is flawed and misses the essential nature of how people understand and use interpersonal identity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The only real identity that is immune from subversion is consistent , community agreement.What I mean by this is that every piece of data measured can be faked , copied , or altered in the database against which the measurement is checked .
DNA can be planted , id cards will be sold on black markets and faked , biometrics can be later changed or forged .
The measured data in the database against which identity is checked can be altered - * all * the technology-based methods for ID have vectors of attack.What can not be faked is what ones peers and friends agree upon regarding who an individual really is , and that the human in wuestion really is the person they agree it is .
If all the friends and neighbors agree you really are Bob , then you 're Bob regardless of what you do , or what data is stored in electronic systems .
This is an unwieldy ( nearly impossible ) metric for access to a bar , authentication for into services , permission to drive , or asserting your ID at the bank to get your money .
However , at its heart , community consistency could be the unalterable root from which all the other identification methods would rely upon .
Basically one can create all kinds of electronic , physical , and technology based systems that will need to get reset when they are faked or forged or incorrect .
To rely on other electronic systems for that reset is flawed and misses the essential nature of how people understand and use interpersonal identity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only real identity that is immune from subversion is consistent, community agreement.What I mean by this is that every piece of data measured can be faked, copied, or altered in the database against which the measurement is checked.
DNA can be planted, id cards will be sold on black markets and faked, biometrics can be later changed or forged.
The measured data in the database against which identity is checked can be altered - *all* the technology-based methods for ID have vectors of attack.What cannot be faked is what ones peers and friends agree upon regarding who an individual really is, and that the human in wuestion really is the person they agree it is.
If all the friends and neighbors agree you really are Bob, then you're Bob regardless of what you do, or what data is stored in electronic systems.
This is an unwieldy (nearly impossible) metric for access to a bar, authentication for into services, permission to drive, or asserting your ID at the bank to get your money.
However, at its heart, community consistency could be the unalterable root from which all the other identification methods would rely upon.
Basically one can create all kinds of electronic, physical, and technology based systems that will need to get reset when they are faked or forged or incorrect.
To rely on other electronic systems for that reset is flawed and misses the essential nature of how people understand and use interpersonal identity.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360250</id>
	<title>GLORIOUS NIPPON</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260195600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Can't blame her for wanting to live in Japan.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ca n't blame her for wanting to live in Japan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can't blame her for wanting to live in Japan.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30369132</id>
	<title>Re:long term identity subversion prevention</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260304260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's why I only invest with Bernard Madoff.  All my friends say he's really trustworthy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's why I only invest with Bernard Madoff .
All my friends say he 's really trustworthy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's why I only invest with Bernard Madoff.
All my friends say he's really trustworthy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360514</id>
	<title>Re:Watching 'Bladerunner' too many times?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260197460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The fear of rejection would probably be too high of a risk for most plastic surgeons to take the job. Also the costs of prescriptions, surgery,  to subdue antibodies  and $$$convincing someone to do this with you, or... i suppose acquiring a set of fingers off the black market hehehe<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,would make it a costly endeavor.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The fear of rejection would probably be too high of a risk for most plastic surgeons to take the job .
Also the costs of prescriptions , surgery , to subdue antibodies and $ $ $ convincing someone to do this with you , or... i suppose acquiring a set of fingers off the black market hehehe ,would make it a costly endeavor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The fear of rejection would probably be too high of a risk for most plastic surgeons to take the job.
Also the costs of prescriptions, surgery,  to subdue antibodies  and $$$convincing someone to do this with you, or... i suppose acquiring a set of fingers off the black market hehehe ,would make it a costly endeavor.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361072</id>
	<title>Bottle Cap Technique</title>
	<author>BountyX</author>
	<datestamp>1260201900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Very easy to fake a print using the <a href="http://www.ehow.com/how\_2122642\_fake-fingerprints.html" title="ehow.com">bottle cap technique</a> [ehow.com]. Surgical alteration seems a bit overkill to me.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Very easy to fake a print using the bottle cap technique [ ehow.com ] .
Surgical alteration seems a bit overkill to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Very easy to fake a print using the bottle cap technique [ehow.com].
Surgical alteration seems a bit overkill to me.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360940</id>
	<title>Re:Never Say Never Again</title>
	<author>AnotherUsername</author>
	<datestamp>1260200700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When it comes to reality tv, I think it is safe to say that it is all fiction.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When it comes to reality tv , I think it is safe to say that it is all fiction .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When it comes to reality tv, I think it is safe to say that it is all fiction.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360570</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30363766</id>
	<title>Yeah.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260277740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Listen, I like all this being and nothingness stuff just as much as the next person but I'm only on this planet for a few decades and don't really have the time.</p><p>You're born, and you die. Between the two you remain that person - even if you do change a bit in between. That's good enough in most situations for most people.</p><p>Most of us don't have time to ask ourselves if we really exist or whether the world is just a figment of our imagination.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Listen , I like all this being and nothingness stuff just as much as the next person but I 'm only on this planet for a few decades and do n't really have the time.You 're born , and you die .
Between the two you remain that person - even if you do change a bit in between .
That 's good enough in most situations for most people.Most of us do n't have time to ask ourselves if we really exist or whether the world is just a figment of our imagination .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Listen, I like all this being and nothingness stuff just as much as the next person but I'm only on this planet for a few decades and don't really have the time.You're born, and you die.
Between the two you remain that person - even if you do change a bit in between.
That's good enough in most situations for most people.Most of us don't have time to ask ourselves if we really exist or whether the world is just a figment of our imagination.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360656</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360690</id>
	<title>Re:Did she fool anyone, though?</title>
	<author>Idiomatick</author>
	<datestamp>1260198780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm not sure how you expect 'person goes by unnoticed' to make the news....</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure how you expect 'person goes by unnoticed ' to make the news... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not sure how you expect 'person goes by unnoticed' to make the news....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360324</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361180</id>
	<title>Re:Watching 'Bladerunner' too many times?</title>
	<author>martas</author>
	<datestamp>1260202860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>forget blade runner, this article reminds me of minority report so much that it's a little creepy...</htmltext>
<tokenext>forget blade runner , this article reminds me of minority report so much that it 's a little creepy.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>forget blade runner, this article reminds me of minority report so much that it's a little creepy...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30363956</id>
	<title>Re:Woah</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260280320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>A lack of fingerprints would be noticed. The mafia did this for awhile by burning their fingerprints off with a hot iron so as not to leave them behind at the crime scene.</p></div><p>Few people know this, but the invention of gloves was in fact spurred greatly by disgruntled mafia henchmen.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>A lack of fingerprints would be noticed .
The mafia did this for awhile by burning their fingerprints off with a hot iron so as not to leave them behind at the crime scene.Few people know this , but the invention of gloves was in fact spurred greatly by disgruntled mafia henchmen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A lack of fingerprints would be noticed.
The mafia did this for awhile by burning their fingerprints off with a hot iron so as not to leave them behind at the crime scene.Few people know this, but the invention of gloves was in fact spurred greatly by disgruntled mafia henchmen.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360560</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360888</id>
	<title>Re:Did she fool anyone, though?</title>
	<author>Burning1</author>
	<datestamp>1260200220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/22/digital-fingerprint-door-lock-defeated-by-photocopied-print/" title="engadget.com">Mythbusters defeated a similar lock using a simple fingerprint photocopy.</a> [engadget.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Mythbusters defeated a similar lock using a simple fingerprint photocopy .
[ engadget.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mythbusters defeated a similar lock using a simple fingerprint photocopy.
[engadget.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360584</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361764</id>
	<title>Re:What about the disabled?</title>
	<author>sqlrob</author>
	<datestamp>1260207960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He even got a job at CNN</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He even got a job at CNN</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He even got a job at CNN</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360680</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360410</id>
	<title>FBI fighting this since the 1930's</title>
	<author>Somegeek</author>
	<datestamp>1260196800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"other countries who fingerprint visitors could be equally vulnerable &mdash; not least the United States", according to BBC Asia analyst Andre Vornic.</p><p>Vornic needs to do some research.  Criminals in the US have been attempting to surgically alter or mask their fingerprints since at least the 1930s, and the FBI has been researching the techniques since then as well.  I remember reading about this in a book from the 60's, where a counterfeiter surgically swapped his prints around, and the FBI recognized them, out of order, and matched them back up with the original fingers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" other countries who fingerprint visitors could be equally vulnerable    not least the United States " , according to BBC Asia analyst Andre Vornic.Vornic needs to do some research .
Criminals in the US have been attempting to surgically alter or mask their fingerprints since at least the 1930s , and the FBI has been researching the techniques since then as well .
I remember reading about this in a book from the 60 's , where a counterfeiter surgically swapped his prints around , and the FBI recognized them , out of order , and matched them back up with the original fingers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"other countries who fingerprint visitors could be equally vulnerable — not least the United States", according to BBC Asia analyst Andre Vornic.Vornic needs to do some research.
Criminals in the US have been attempting to surgically alter or mask their fingerprints since at least the 1930s, and the FBI has been researching the techniques since then as well.
I remember reading about this in a book from the 60's, where a counterfeiter surgically swapped his prints around, and the FBI recognized them, out of order, and matched them back up with the original fingers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361282</id>
	<title>Re:Skip the prints and the eyes</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260203700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yea but that won't work on Americans.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yea but that wo n't work on Americans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yea but that won't work on Americans.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360256</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361300</id>
	<title>Re:long term identity subversion prevention</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1260203760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At one time, that was sort of the final safety valve. If worst came to worst, a person could start over with a more or less fictional history and be judged from that point forward only.</p><p>While that can be misused, there can also be legitimate uses. We as a society seem to be racing headlong the other direction. Get caught peeing on a dumpster and you might get a scarlet letter for life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At one time , that was sort of the final safety valve .
If worst came to worst , a person could start over with a more or less fictional history and be judged from that point forward only.While that can be misused , there can also be legitimate uses .
We as a society seem to be racing headlong the other direction .
Get caught peeing on a dumpster and you might get a scarlet letter for life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At one time, that was sort of the final safety valve.
If worst came to worst, a person could start over with a more or less fictional history and be judged from that point forward only.While that can be misused, there can also be legitimate uses.
We as a society seem to be racing headlong the other direction.
Get caught peeing on a dumpster and you might get a scarlet letter for life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360510</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30361412</id>
	<title>This will be quite e</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260204600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hi There,</p><p>I work for a company that has designed and implemented fingerprint bordergate security for many countries. This may include the country in mention.</p><p>This problem will be quite easily overcome. As processing power increases, it will be increasingly easy to search more combinations of captured fingerprints against prints stored on a database. For instance, at this time there is no need to search somebody's right thumb against all of the left thumbs stored in the database. This is for obvious reasons. The fingerprints that are captured in a process as described in the article are not hashed together or in any other way combined, they are simply searched individually against prints stored on a database for the given finger position.</p><p>The solution is to simply search each fingerprint against (at least) the fingerprint stored for the opposing hand. You could also search against the entire database. This is similar to the process used when lifting a fingerprint from a crime scene, in which case the finger of origin is often unknown.</p><p>So, the solution will be quite simple, and will simply require more processing power for the search. More money to the vendors.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hi There,I work for a company that has designed and implemented fingerprint bordergate security for many countries .
This may include the country in mention.This problem will be quite easily overcome .
As processing power increases , it will be increasingly easy to search more combinations of captured fingerprints against prints stored on a database .
For instance , at this time there is no need to search somebody 's right thumb against all of the left thumbs stored in the database .
This is for obvious reasons .
The fingerprints that are captured in a process as described in the article are not hashed together or in any other way combined , they are simply searched individually against prints stored on a database for the given finger position.The solution is to simply search each fingerprint against ( at least ) the fingerprint stored for the opposing hand .
You could also search against the entire database .
This is similar to the process used when lifting a fingerprint from a crime scene , in which case the finger of origin is often unknown.So , the solution will be quite simple , and will simply require more processing power for the search .
More money to the vendors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hi There,I work for a company that has designed and implemented fingerprint bordergate security for many countries.
This may include the country in mention.This problem will be quite easily overcome.
As processing power increases, it will be increasingly easy to search more combinations of captured fingerprints against prints stored on a database.
For instance, at this time there is no need to search somebody's right thumb against all of the left thumbs stored in the database.
This is for obvious reasons.
The fingerprints that are captured in a process as described in the article are not hashed together or in any other way combined, they are simply searched individually against prints stored on a database for the given finger position.The solution is to simply search each fingerprint against (at least) the fingerprint stored for the opposing hand.
You could also search against the entire database.
This is similar to the process used when lifting a fingerprint from a crime scene, in which case the finger of origin is often unknown.So, the solution will be quite simple, and will simply require more processing power for the search.
More money to the vendors.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30364356</id>
	<title>Time for some biometric escalation?? WTF!</title>
	<author>chord.wav</author>
	<datestamp>1260283380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Time for some biometric escalation.</p></div><p>BULLSHIT! It's time to stop the gestapo tactics and open all the borders to anyone that wants to enter any country. After all, we are all human beings born in the same planet. Those imaginary lines that they always told you were borders between US and THEM, they are just that, imaginary lines made up by the people in power.
<br>
<br>
"Imagine there's no countries" - John Lennon</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Time for some biometric escalation.BULLSHIT !
It 's time to stop the gestapo tactics and open all the borders to anyone that wants to enter any country .
After all , we are all human beings born in the same planet .
Those imaginary lines that they always told you were borders between US and THEM , they are just that , imaginary lines made up by the people in power .
" Imagine there 's no countries " - John Lennon</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Time for some biometric escalation.BULLSHIT!
It's time to stop the gestapo tactics and open all the borders to anyone that wants to enter any country.
After all, we are all human beings born in the same planet.
Those imaginary lines that they always told you were borders between US and THEM, they are just that, imaginary lines made up by the people in power.
"Imagine there's no countries" - John Lennon
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360994</id>
	<title>What about publishing them openly?</title>
	<author>Richard\_J\_N</author>
	<datestamp>1260201120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about a public (anonymised) repository of fingerprints. The idea is this: I can't change my prints, nor can I get back control once the government has taken them. But I could publish them to the world. That makes the print very easy for anyone else to fake. In other words, plausible deniability.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about a public ( anonymised ) repository of fingerprints .
The idea is this : I ca n't change my prints , nor can I get back control once the government has taken them .
But I could publish them to the world .
That makes the print very easy for anyone else to fake .
In other words , plausible deniability .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about a public (anonymised) repository of fingerprints.
The idea is this: I can't change my prints, nor can I get back control once the government has taken them.
But I could publish them to the world.
That makes the print very easy for anyone else to fake.
In other words, plausible deniability.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_0015216.30360352</id>
	<title>Really....</title>
	<author>Darkness404</author>
	<datestamp>1260196320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Really, fingerprinting is based on the belief that no two people have identical fingerprints, furthermore, most commercial/personal scanners are going to have a degree of forgiveness, after all, you don't want to be locked out of your laptop for having a dirty hand or something. Fingerprints are not secure, they can be manipulated, changed, altered, etc. A fingerprint is nothing more than a key.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Really , fingerprinting is based on the belief that no two people have identical fingerprints , furthermore , most commercial/personal scanners are going to have a degree of forgiveness , after all , you do n't want to be locked out of your laptop for having a dirty hand or something .
Fingerprints are not secure , they can be manipulated , changed , altered , etc .
A fingerprint is nothing more than a key .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Really, fingerprinting is based on the belief that no two people have identical fingerprints, furthermore, most commercial/personal scanners are going to have a degree of forgiveness, after all, you don't want to be locked out of your laptop for having a dirty hand or something.
Fingerprints are not secure, they can be manipulated, changed, altered, etc.
A fingerprint is nothing more than a key.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_08_0015216_13</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_08_0015216_8</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_08_0015216_34</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_08_0015216_33</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_08_0015216_12</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_08_0015216_35</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_08_0015216_7</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_08_0015216_11</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_08_0015216_10</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_08_0015216_2</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_08_0015216_32</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_08_0015216_17</id>
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