<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_12_01_1845250</id>
	<title>Recycling Excess Heat From the Data Center</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1259694840000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>itwbennett writes <i>"A new data center being built in Helsinki, scheduled to go live at the end of January, will <a href="http://www.itworld.com/green-it/86372/helsinki-recycle-excess-heat-data-center">generate energy and deliver hot water</a> for the city. The data center is located in an old bomb shelter and is connected to the Helsinki public energy company's district heating system, which works by pumping boiling water through a system of pipes to households in Helsinki. The recycled heat from the data center could add about 1 percent to the total energy generated by the energy company's system in the summer."</i> The article doesn't say what the overall efficiency of the heat recovery is. Researchers at MIT are working on a new energy-conversion technology based on quantum dots that they say has already demonstrated <a href="http://web.mit.edu/press/2009/thermoelectric.html">40\% of the Carnot efficiency limit</a> &mdash; 4 times what is achieved by current commercial thermoelectric devices. The researchers believe they can reach 90\% of the Carnot limit.</htmltext>
<tokenext>itwbennett writes " A new data center being built in Helsinki , scheduled to go live at the end of January , will generate energy and deliver hot water for the city .
The data center is located in an old bomb shelter and is connected to the Helsinki public energy company 's district heating system , which works by pumping boiling water through a system of pipes to households in Helsinki .
The recycled heat from the data center could add about 1 percent to the total energy generated by the energy company 's system in the summer .
" The article does n't say what the overall efficiency of the heat recovery is .
Researchers at MIT are working on a new energy-conversion technology based on quantum dots that they say has already demonstrated 40 \ % of the Carnot efficiency limit    4 times what is achieved by current commercial thermoelectric devices .
The researchers believe they can reach 90 \ % of the Carnot limit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>itwbennett writes "A new data center being built in Helsinki, scheduled to go live at the end of January, will generate energy and deliver hot water for the city.
The data center is located in an old bomb shelter and is connected to the Helsinki public energy company's district heating system, which works by pumping boiling water through a system of pipes to households in Helsinki.
The recycled heat from the data center could add about 1 percent to the total energy generated by the energy company's system in the summer.
" The article doesn't say what the overall efficiency of the heat recovery is.
Researchers at MIT are working on a new energy-conversion technology based on quantum dots that they say has already demonstrated 40\% of the Carnot efficiency limit — 4 times what is achieved by current commercial thermoelectric devices.
The researchers believe they can reach 90\% of the Carnot limit.</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30288704</id>
	<title>Re:WTF, why is a Carnot reference here?</title>
	<author>halcyon1234</author>
	<datestamp>1259661300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yo Carnot have 100\% efficiency, coptain. It's just nout possible!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yo Carnot have 100 \ % efficiency , coptain .
It 's just nout possible !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yo Carnot have 100\% efficiency, coptain.
It's just nout possible!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287174</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287380</id>
	<title>Quantum Dots....</title>
	<author>jameskojiro</author>
	<datestamp>1259699400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is what is used to power Matroska brains.....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is what is used to power Matroska brains.... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is what is used to power Matroska brains.....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30293858</id>
	<title>Industrial Water Treatment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259691720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I tend to think that some of the problem they will see with trying this is scale build up on the pipes as well as corrosion of the pipes unless they are doing something for the water treatment end of itself. I am by no means an expert but green technology has been around for over 100 years when dealing with cooling and heating and water ( http://www.g-c.com/ )</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I tend to think that some of the problem they will see with trying this is scale build up on the pipes as well as corrosion of the pipes unless they are doing something for the water treatment end of itself .
I am by no means an expert but green technology has been around for over 100 years when dealing with cooling and heating and water ( http : //www.g-c.com/ )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I tend to think that some of the problem they will see with trying this is scale build up on the pipes as well as corrosion of the pipes unless they are doing something for the water treatment end of itself.
I am by no means an expert but green technology has been around for over 100 years when dealing with cooling and heating and water ( http://www.g-c.com/ )</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30289238</id>
	<title>Quantum Dot</title>
	<author>physburn</author>
	<datestamp>1259663760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Looking forward the Quantum Dot heat engine, it nothing to do with
the Helskini project and deserves a thread of its own. The authors claim
up to 90\% Carnot efficency is possible. Even at 40\% this is better than
almost every heat to electricity generator mankind has made so far. It
would replace turbines and generators everywhere (if they can run that
hot), and doubling the efficiency of gas/coal/oil and nuclear power
stations. That's fantastic, and probably decades aways.
<p>
---
</p><p>
<a href="http://www.feeddistiller.com/blogs/Heat\%20Recovery/feed.html" title="feeddistiller.com">Heat Recovery</a> [feeddistiller.com] Feed @ <a href="http://www.feeddistiller.com/" title="feeddistiller.com">Feed Distiller</a> [feeddistiller.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Looking forward the Quantum Dot heat engine , it nothing to do with the Helskini project and deserves a thread of its own .
The authors claim up to 90 \ % Carnot efficency is possible .
Even at 40 \ % this is better than almost every heat to electricity generator mankind has made so far .
It would replace turbines and generators everywhere ( if they can run that hot ) , and doubling the efficiency of gas/coal/oil and nuclear power stations .
That 's fantastic , and probably decades aways .
--- Heat Recovery [ feeddistiller.com ] Feed @ Feed Distiller [ feeddistiller.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Looking forward the Quantum Dot heat engine, it nothing to do with
the Helskini project and deserves a thread of its own.
The authors claim
up to 90\% Carnot efficency is possible.
Even at 40\% this is better than
almost every heat to electricity generator mankind has made so far.
It
would replace turbines and generators everywhere (if they can run that
hot), and doubling the efficiency of gas/coal/oil and nuclear power
stations.
That's fantastic, and probably decades aways.
---

Heat Recovery [feeddistiller.com] Feed @ Feed Distiller [feeddistiller.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30290592</id>
	<title>Re:WTF, why is a Carnot reference here?</title>
	<author>mosb1000</author>
	<datestamp>1259669640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"do you really suppose, even in theory, that you could pump electricity into a datacenter, put pretty pictures on people's screens all over the world, and then pick up 100\% of that electricity back for use in heating your hot water?"<br><br>Yes.  Where do you think the energy goes?  The first law of thermodynamics requires that you get it all back.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" do you really suppose , even in theory , that you could pump electricity into a datacenter , put pretty pictures on people 's screens all over the world , and then pick up 100 \ % of that electricity back for use in heating your hot water ? " Yes .
Where do you think the energy goes ?
The first law of thermodynamics requires that you get it all back .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"do you really suppose, even in theory, that you could pump electricity into a datacenter, put pretty pictures on people's screens all over the world, and then pick up 100\% of that electricity back for use in heating your hot water?"Yes.
Where do you think the energy goes?
The first law of thermodynamics requires that you get it all back.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30288196</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287542</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259699940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes and no, water actually is a very good &quot;thermal&quot; battery.  That is why coastal regions have a more temperate climate than inland region.  Its cheap and we know a lot about how to move it around and have existing infrastructure for doing exactly that.  Its not the most efficient way, but often it is the most practical and economical.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes and no , water actually is a very good " thermal " battery .
That is why coastal regions have a more temperate climate than inland region .
Its cheap and we know a lot about how to move it around and have existing infrastructure for doing exactly that .
Its not the most efficient way , but often it is the most practical and economical .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes and no, water actually is a very good "thermal" battery.
That is why coastal regions have a more temperate climate than inland region.
Its cheap and we know a lot about how to move it around and have existing infrastructure for doing exactly that.
Its not the most efficient way, but often it is the most practical and economical.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30288314</id>
	<title>Re:Central Heating to the extreme</title>
	<author>badran</author>
	<datestamp>1259659800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You should have bought a pair of buckets... This is what the locals do<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You should have bought a pair of buckets... This is what the locals do ; ) .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You should have bought a pair of buckets... This is what the locals do ;)...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287746</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287228</id>
	<title>The problem with approaching Carnot efficiency...</title>
	<author>gyepi</author>
	<datestamp>1259698800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>... is that the process will take longer and longer time. Carnot efficiency is defined by the efficiency of a reversible heat engine operating between the given temperatures; but truly reversible processes would take infinite amount of time.

Efficiency is certainly an important aim, but certainly not the solely desirable aim.</htmltext>
<tokenext>... is that the process will take longer and longer time .
Carnot efficiency is defined by the efficiency of a reversible heat engine operating between the given temperatures ; but truly reversible processes would take infinite amount of time .
Efficiency is certainly an important aim , but certainly not the solely desirable aim .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... is that the process will take longer and longer time.
Carnot efficiency is defined by the efficiency of a reversible heat engine operating between the given temperatures; but truly reversible processes would take infinite amount of time.
Efficiency is certainly an important aim, but certainly not the solely desirable aim.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30295686</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259584320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The thing is this works in so many dimensions. True there are losses. But theres also losses in local heating, electricity etc.</p><p>The real benefits are:</p><p>1) its much more efficient to have one big heat plant than each house having its own.</p><p>2) When you produce electricity you get exess heat anyways. So what we are doing is using the heat excess of the energy production.  Ok sure so helsinki is nearly the 60th parallel. So at the very core of winter they do produce more heat than electricity, but on teh whole it evens out.</p><p>3) the system is extraordinarily reliable. Personally i have for whole of my life lived in a house with this heating system and to this day i have never ever encountered a loss of heating.</p><p>4) the that is not directly connected into your home. The energy networks pipes are a closed system so you use that in your boiler room to heat water to say 60 degrees and use that to heat the appartment.</p><p>5) yes there are losses you can clearly see where the heat mains go when the temperature is at just below freezing. Its still more cost and energy effective tough than electric or oil. And during summer the same system can transport cold if need be.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The thing is this works in so many dimensions .
True there are losses .
But theres also losses in local heating , electricity etc.The real benefits are : 1 ) its much more efficient to have one big heat plant than each house having its own.2 ) When you produce electricity you get exess heat anyways .
So what we are doing is using the heat excess of the energy production .
Ok sure so helsinki is nearly the 60th parallel .
So at the very core of winter they do produce more heat than electricity , but on teh whole it evens out.3 ) the system is extraordinarily reliable .
Personally i have for whole of my life lived in a house with this heating system and to this day i have never ever encountered a loss of heating.4 ) the that is not directly connected into your home .
The energy networks pipes are a closed system so you use that in your boiler room to heat water to say 60 degrees and use that to heat the appartment.5 ) yes there are losses you can clearly see where the heat mains go when the temperature is at just below freezing .
Its still more cost and energy effective tough than electric or oil .
And during summer the same system can transport cold if need be .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The thing is this works in so many dimensions.
True there are losses.
But theres also losses in local heating, electricity etc.The real benefits are:1) its much more efficient to have one big heat plant than each house having its own.2) When you produce electricity you get exess heat anyways.
So what we are doing is using the heat excess of the energy production.
Ok sure so helsinki is nearly the 60th parallel.
So at the very core of winter they do produce more heat than electricity, but on teh whole it evens out.3) the system is extraordinarily reliable.
Personally i have for whole of my life lived in a house with this heating system and to this day i have never ever encountered a loss of heating.4) the that is not directly connected into your home.
The energy networks pipes are a closed system so you use that in your boiler room to heat water to say 60 degrees and use that to heat the appartment.5) yes there are losses you can clearly see where the heat mains go when the temperature is at just below freezing.
Its still more cost and energy effective tough than electric or oil.
And during summer the same system can transport cold if need be.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30290096</id>
	<title>It's much much much more efficient</title>
	<author>Colin Smith</author>
	<datestamp>1259667180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Is pumping boiling water through pipes the most efficient way to heat houses?</p></div><p>Yes. <b>Easily</b>. The pipes in district heating systems are heavily insulated, and large.</p><p><a href="http://www.exakm.gr/images/Transmission\%20pipe\%20installation.jpg" title="exakm.gr">http://www.exakm.gr/images/Transmission\%20pipe\%20installation.jpg</a> [exakm.gr]</p><p>1. It's WAY better than burning fuel to create electricity to transmit to the houses to create heat.<br>2. It's substantially better than pumping gas out to millions of tiny water boilers which do nothing but heat water.<br>3. it's "waste". The bit most power companies <b>throw away</b> after generating electricity. Anything you get from it is essentially "free".</p><p>You can turn a 35\% efficient power station into an 88\% efficient one by making use of waste heat in this manner.</p><p><a href="http://www.helen.fi/energy/yhteistuotanto.html" title="helen.fi">http://www.helen.fi/energy/yhteistuotanto.html</a> [helen.fi]<br>
&nbsp;</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is pumping boiling water through pipes the most efficient way to heat houses ? Yes .
Easily. The pipes in district heating systems are heavily insulated , and large.http : //www.exakm.gr/images/Transmission \ % 20pipe \ % 20installation.jpg [ exakm.gr ] 1 .
It 's WAY better than burning fuel to create electricity to transmit to the houses to create heat.2 .
It 's substantially better than pumping gas out to millions of tiny water boilers which do nothing but heat water.3 .
it 's " waste " .
The bit most power companies throw away after generating electricity .
Anything you get from it is essentially " free " .You can turn a 35 \ % efficient power station into an 88 \ % efficient one by making use of waste heat in this manner.http : //www.helen.fi/energy/yhteistuotanto.html [ helen.fi ]  </tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is pumping boiling water through pipes the most efficient way to heat houses?Yes.
Easily. The pipes in district heating systems are heavily insulated, and large.http://www.exakm.gr/images/Transmission\%20pipe\%20installation.jpg [exakm.gr]1.
It's WAY better than burning fuel to create electricity to transmit to the houses to create heat.2.
It's substantially better than pumping gas out to millions of tiny water boilers which do nothing but heat water.3.
it's "waste".
The bit most power companies throw away after generating electricity.
Anything you get from it is essentially "free".You can turn a 35\% efficient power station into an 88\% efficient one by making use of waste heat in this manner.http://www.helen.fi/energy/yhteistuotanto.html [helen.fi]
 
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30288016</id>
	<title>What about the exec office?</title>
	<author>filesiteguy</author>
	<datestamp>1259658540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Now that we have the issue with the heat coming from the server room solved, let's tackle the hot air coming from the executive offices next.<br><br>Any ideas?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Now that we have the issue with the heat coming from the server room solved , let 's tackle the hot air coming from the executive offices next.Any ideas ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now that we have the issue with the heat coming from the server room solved, let's tackle the hot air coming from the executive offices next.Any ideas?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287262</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>ElSupreme</author>
	<datestamp>1259698920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well it can be fairly efficient. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor\_heating#Efficiency" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor\_heating#Efficiency</a> [wikipedia.org] <br>
The main benifit is that you can easily recover waste heat. From power plants, or any other large heat source.<br>
<br>
And with proper insulation you can limit your heat losses.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well it can be fairly efficient .
http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor \ _heating # Efficiency [ wikipedia.org ] The main benifit is that you can easily recover waste heat .
From power plants , or any other large heat source .
And with proper insulation you can limit your heat losses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well it can be fairly efficient.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor\_heating#Efficiency [wikipedia.org] 
The main benifit is that you can easily recover waste heat.
From power plants, or any other large heat source.
And with proper insulation you can limit your heat losses.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287312</id>
	<title>Valium and Xanax for Engineers and Physicists</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259699100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The pump is also very efficient -- you get five times the amount of energy you put in, he said.</p> </div><p>So, engineers and physicists, when you see statements like that, how do you cope:</p><ol> <li>Stiff drink(s)</li><li>Xanax(s)</li><li>Dust off plans for your perpetual motion machine company to go public</li><li>Cry yourselves to sleep.</li><li>Other</li></ol></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The pump is also very efficient -- you get five times the amount of energy you put in , he said .
So , engineers and physicists , when you see statements like that , how do you cope : Stiff drink ( s ) Xanax ( s ) Dust off plans for your perpetual motion machine company to go publicCry yourselves to sleep.Other</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The pump is also very efficient -- you get five times the amount of energy you put in, he said.
So, engineers and physicists, when you see statements like that, how do you cope: Stiff drink(s)Xanax(s)Dust off plans for your perpetual motion machine company to go publicCry yourselves to sleep.Other
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30294850</id>
	<title>Re:What about the exec office?</title>
	<author>rdnetto</author>
	<datestamp>1259573280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Have you tried using corks?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Have you tried using corks ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have you tried using corks?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30288016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287762</id>
	<title>Re:WTF, why is a Carnot reference here?</title>
	<author>The Archon V2.0</author>
	<datestamp>1259700840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why is a Carnot reference here? Probably because there's not that many publications with user forums where you can mention a thermodynamic cycle in the first paragraph and get back responses more coherent than "I saw Lance Armstrong riding one of those!"</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is a Carnot reference here ?
Probably because there 's not that many publications with user forums where you can mention a thermodynamic cycle in the first paragraph and get back responses more coherent than " I saw Lance Armstrong riding one of those !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is a Carnot reference here?
Probably because there's not that many publications with user forums where you can mention a thermodynamic cycle in the first paragraph and get back responses more coherent than "I saw Lance Armstrong riding one of those!
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287174</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30288458</id>
	<title>FrISt stop</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259660340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><A HREF="http://goat.cx/" title="goat.cx" rel="nofollow">words, don't get Software Lawyers disturbing.  If you</a> [goat.cx]</htmltext>
<tokenext>words , do n't get Software Lawyers disturbing .
If you [ goat.cx ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>words, don't get Software Lawyers disturbing.
If you [goat.cx]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287560</id>
	<title>Re:Valium and Xanax for Engineers and Physicists</title>
	<author>rockNme2349</author>
	<datestamp>1259700060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>6. Post condescending comments on a forum that no one will read.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>6 .
Post condescending comments on a forum that no one will read .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>6.
Post condescending comments on a forum that no one will read.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287312</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30299202</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>Tug3</author>
	<datestamp>1259605320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Naturally there will always be energy loss when you tranport energy.</p><p>But this system is pretty well suited for cities. And naturally the pipes are well insulated and laid under ground to keep ambient temperature constant.</p><p>The water is heated at the plant (or the data center in this case) then pumped to the system. The system consists of main lines usually running under streets. These have smaller lines going to a connected building. Inside the building the pipes go to a "boiler room" or heat center or what-ever you want to call it. There the heat is transferred from the system to buildings own heating system. Usually the heating system consists of hot water running in pipes as well. Although for safety the temperature is much lower on the building's own system. Also the heat from the system may be used to heat your tap water.</p><p>In Finland gas furnaces are almost non existent and only used for camper vans or trailers used for vacations during colder seasons. In the cities this kind of centralised heating is popular due to the efficiency. Both economic and energy. In rural areas oil and electricity are most popular, but heat-exchangers are catching up. Wether it be pumping heat out of outside air or the ground, both work well and give free energy to the house owner. Solar or wind are not harnessed in Finland due more to political reasons than anything else.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Naturally there will always be energy loss when you tranport energy.But this system is pretty well suited for cities .
And naturally the pipes are well insulated and laid under ground to keep ambient temperature constant.The water is heated at the plant ( or the data center in this case ) then pumped to the system .
The system consists of main lines usually running under streets .
These have smaller lines going to a connected building .
Inside the building the pipes go to a " boiler room " or heat center or what-ever you want to call it .
There the heat is transferred from the system to buildings own heating system .
Usually the heating system consists of hot water running in pipes as well .
Although for safety the temperature is much lower on the building 's own system .
Also the heat from the system may be used to heat your tap water.In Finland gas furnaces are almost non existent and only used for camper vans or trailers used for vacations during colder seasons .
In the cities this kind of centralised heating is popular due to the efficiency .
Both economic and energy .
In rural areas oil and electricity are most popular , but heat-exchangers are catching up .
Wether it be pumping heat out of outside air or the ground , both work well and give free energy to the house owner .
Solar or wind are not harnessed in Finland due more to political reasons than anything else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Naturally there will always be energy loss when you tranport energy.But this system is pretty well suited for cities.
And naturally the pipes are well insulated and laid under ground to keep ambient temperature constant.The water is heated at the plant (or the data center in this case) then pumped to the system.
The system consists of main lines usually running under streets.
These have smaller lines going to a connected building.
Inside the building the pipes go to a "boiler room" or heat center or what-ever you want to call it.
There the heat is transferred from the system to buildings own heating system.
Usually the heating system consists of hot water running in pipes as well.
Although for safety the temperature is much lower on the building's own system.
Also the heat from the system may be used to heat your tap water.In Finland gas furnaces are almost non existent and only used for camper vans or trailers used for vacations during colder seasons.
In the cities this kind of centralised heating is popular due to the efficiency.
Both economic and energy.
In rural areas oil and electricity are most popular, but heat-exchangers are catching up.
Wether it be pumping heat out of outside air or the ground, both work well and give free energy to the house owner.
Solar or wind are not harnessed in Finland due more to political reasons than anything else.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287752</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259700780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is very efficient if central planning is politically feasible option in the region, population density is high enough (town or city consists of relatively uniform area with apartment blocks) and there's actual need for heating. In Helsinki area virtually all apartment buildings use the system - practically only problems that can occur are overloading of the power plants on extremely cold weather... and much more commonly, skimpy apartment block landlords not turning the house valves quick enough to keep in pace with cooling weather when winter approaches. As insulation tends to be much more reasonable than many other Europeans seem to use, cold temperatures (15 degrees C) are almost unheard of even on worst situations...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is very efficient if central planning is politically feasible option in the region , population density is high enough ( town or city consists of relatively uniform area with apartment blocks ) and there 's actual need for heating .
In Helsinki area virtually all apartment buildings use the system - practically only problems that can occur are overloading of the power plants on extremely cold weather... and much more commonly , skimpy apartment block landlords not turning the house valves quick enough to keep in pace with cooling weather when winter approaches .
As insulation tends to be much more reasonable than many other Europeans seem to use , cold temperatures ( 15 degrees C ) are almost unheard of even on worst situations.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is very efficient if central planning is politically feasible option in the region, population density is high enough (town or city consists of relatively uniform area with apartment blocks) and there's actual need for heating.
In Helsinki area virtually all apartment buildings use the system - practically only problems that can occur are overloading of the power plants on extremely cold weather... and much more commonly, skimpy apartment block landlords not turning the house valves quick enough to keep in pace with cooling weather when winter approaches.
As insulation tends to be much more reasonable than many other Europeans seem to use, cold temperatures (15 degrees C) are almost unheard of even on worst situations...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30289042</id>
	<title>Re:The problem with approaching Carnot efficiency.</title>
	<author>pla</author>
	<datestamp>1259662740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>Carnot efficiency is defined by the efficiency of a reversible heat engine operating between the given temperatures;</i> <br>
<br>
"Heat engine" != direct thermoelectric conversion (whether via quantum dots or just plain ol' Peltier junctions).<br>
<br>
The Carnot limit simply doesn't apply to direct conversion, and AFAIK, no theoretical limit to near-100\% efficiency
(minus entropy) exists for the latter.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Carnot efficiency is defined by the efficiency of a reversible heat engine operating between the given temperatures ; " Heat engine " ! = direct thermoelectric conversion ( whether via quantum dots or just plain ol ' Peltier junctions ) .
The Carnot limit simply does n't apply to direct conversion , and AFAIK , no theoretical limit to near-100 \ % efficiency ( minus entropy ) exists for the latter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Carnot efficiency is defined by the efficiency of a reversible heat engine operating between the given temperatures; 

"Heat engine" != direct thermoelectric conversion (whether via quantum dots or just plain ol' Peltier junctions).
The Carnot limit simply doesn't apply to direct conversion, and AFAIK, no theoretical limit to near-100\% efficiency
(minus entropy) exists for the latter.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287606</id>
	<title>Re:Valium and Xanax for Engineers and Physicists</title>
	<author>wealthychef</author>
	<datestamp>1259700180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>when you see statements like that, how do you cope</i> </p><p>
Well, you could just try to understand from context, that they mean, five times the energy put into the system <i>besides the energy recovered from the waste heat</i>, which is "free" in this context.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>when you see statements like that , how do you cope Well , you could just try to understand from context , that they mean , five times the energy put into the system besides the energy recovered from the waste heat , which is " free " in this context .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> when you see statements like that, how do you cope 
Well, you could just try to understand from context, that they mean, five times the energy put into the system besides the energy recovered from the waste heat, which is "free" in this context.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287312</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287348</id>
	<title>Data center cooling in the winter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259699280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I know, this is off topic but...<br>I never understood why datacenters never had direct outside ventilation.  In the winter, this could cut down on cooling costs and could benefit the building as well for heat.  Depending on the incoming and exhaust temperatures, you could either redirect the exhaust outside or into the building.  Lack of humidity control would be concern but is that the only reason this is not used more often?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know , this is off topic but...I never understood why datacenters never had direct outside ventilation .
In the winter , this could cut down on cooling costs and could benefit the building as well for heat .
Depending on the incoming and exhaust temperatures , you could either redirect the exhaust outside or into the building .
Lack of humidity control would be concern but is that the only reason this is not used more often ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know, this is off topic but...I never understood why datacenters never had direct outside ventilation.
In the winter, this could cut down on cooling costs and could benefit the building as well for heat.
Depending on the incoming and exhaust temperatures, you could either redirect the exhaust outside or into the building.
Lack of humidity control would be concern but is that the only reason this is not used more often?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287270</id>
	<title>German comma</title>
	<author>Hognoxious</author>
	<datestamp>1259698980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The comma after 'data center', should not be there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The comma after 'data center ' , should not be there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The comma after 'data center', should not be there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30289484</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>jo\_ham</author>
	<datestamp>1259664780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What do you mean "excepting England" - almost all houses here have central heating based on water-filled radiators. I'm having to think very hard about the last house I visited here that *didn't* have a piped water heating system.</p><p>The water isn't usually boiling though, since the systems are almost always open circuit (so not pressurised). The one in my house uses water at about 60C, and also provides hot water for the tank for showers/dishes etc. I don't have a combi, so if you want hot water, you have to switch it on ahead of time, unless you set timers and so on, which I don't bother with.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What do you mean " excepting England " - almost all houses here have central heating based on water-filled radiators .
I 'm having to think very hard about the last house I visited here that * did n't * have a piped water heating system.The water is n't usually boiling though , since the systems are almost always open circuit ( so not pressurised ) .
The one in my house uses water at about 60C , and also provides hot water for the tank for showers/dishes etc .
I do n't have a combi , so if you want hot water , you have to switch it on ahead of time , unless you set timers and so on , which I do n't bother with .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What do you mean "excepting England" - almost all houses here have central heating based on water-filled radiators.
I'm having to think very hard about the last house I visited here that *didn't* have a piped water heating system.The water isn't usually boiling though, since the systems are almost always open circuit (so not pressurised).
The one in my house uses water at about 60C, and also provides hot water for the tank for showers/dishes etc.
I don't have a combi, so if you want hot water, you have to switch it on ahead of time, unless you set timers and so on, which I don't bother with.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287594</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287284</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>onionman</author>
	<datestamp>1259699040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Is pumping boiling water through pipes the most efficient way to heat houses?  Isn't there a pretty massive heat loss in the pipes?</p><p>Having said that, if they are already using this system for heat, the introduction of waste heat from a datacenter seems to make a lot of sense.  Acts as a heat sink for the data center, reduces the amount of energy needed to heat the water.</p></div><p>Actually, it's a reasonable system for heating large building complexes where a central facility can heat the water.  Many Universities and large corporate complexes already use similar methods for heating their campuses.  Insulation on the pipes keeps the water warm in transit.  These complexes can also cool their buildings in the summer by pumping chilled water through the system.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is pumping boiling water through pipes the most efficient way to heat houses ?
Is n't there a pretty massive heat loss in the pipes ? Having said that , if they are already using this system for heat , the introduction of waste heat from a datacenter seems to make a lot of sense .
Acts as a heat sink for the data center , reduces the amount of energy needed to heat the water.Actually , it 's a reasonable system for heating large building complexes where a central facility can heat the water .
Many Universities and large corporate complexes already use similar methods for heating their campuses .
Insulation on the pipes keeps the water warm in transit .
These complexes can also cool their buildings in the summer by pumping chilled water through the system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is pumping boiling water through pipes the most efficient way to heat houses?
Isn't there a pretty massive heat loss in the pipes?Having said that, if they are already using this system for heat, the introduction of waste heat from a datacenter seems to make a lot of sense.
Acts as a heat sink for the data center, reduces the amount of energy needed to heat the water.Actually, it's a reasonable system for heating large building complexes where a central facility can heat the water.
Many Universities and large corporate complexes already use similar methods for heating their campuses.
Insulation on the pipes keeps the water warm in transit.
These complexes can also cool their buildings in the summer by pumping chilled water through the system.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30290172</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>DavMz</author>
	<datestamp>1259667600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I know for sure it is used in France in houses especially when heating is through the floor. I have also seen the hot water underfloor heating Efficiency of underfloor heating isn't bad: if you have good insulation below the pipes, you don't loose too much heat through the ground; as the floor is warm, convection occurs naturally and the room temperature gets more uniform; you don't have the "cold feet" effect which makes you heat more (remember, no shoes inside the house). <p>
Quoting <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor\_heating" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a> [wikipedia.org]: "Warm water UFH is 30\% more efficient than low temperature radiators with a ground source heat pump, 20\% more efficienct with an air source heat pump, and 5-15\% more efficient than low temp radiators with a condensing boiler, according to a major study produced by EU-RAY, the European Radiant Heating &amp; Cooling Association."</p><p>

In France, you can also find hot water heating in habitation buildings, where you have one heater for all the appartments, and I think that similar system is used in the Russia (or at least it used to be).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know for sure it is used in France in houses especially when heating is through the floor .
I have also seen the hot water underfloor heating Efficiency of underfloor heating is n't bad : if you have good insulation below the pipes , you do n't loose too much heat through the ground ; as the floor is warm , convection occurs naturally and the room temperature gets more uniform ; you do n't have the " cold feet " effect which makes you heat more ( remember , no shoes inside the house ) .
Quoting Wikipedia [ wikipedia.org ] : " Warm water UFH is 30 \ % more efficient than low temperature radiators with a ground source heat pump , 20 \ % more efficienct with an air source heat pump , and 5-15 \ % more efficient than low temp radiators with a condensing boiler , according to a major study produced by EU-RAY , the European Radiant Heating &amp; Cooling Association .
" In France , you can also find hot water heating in habitation buildings , where you have one heater for all the appartments , and I think that similar system is used in the Russia ( or at least it used to be ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know for sure it is used in France in houses especially when heating is through the floor.
I have also seen the hot water underfloor heating Efficiency of underfloor heating isn't bad: if you have good insulation below the pipes, you don't loose too much heat through the ground; as the floor is warm, convection occurs naturally and the room temperature gets more uniform; you don't have the "cold feet" effect which makes you heat more (remember, no shoes inside the house).
Quoting Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]: "Warm water UFH is 30\% more efficient than low temperature radiators with a ground source heat pump, 20\% more efficienct with an air source heat pump, and 5-15\% more efficient than low temp radiators with a condensing boiler, according to a major study produced by EU-RAY, the European Radiant Heating &amp; Cooling Association.
"

In France, you can also find hot water heating in habitation buildings, where you have one heater for all the appartments, and I think that similar system is used in the Russia (or at least it used to be).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287614</id>
	<title>It IS great</title>
	<author>dgr73</author>
	<datestamp>1259700240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Not to mention that when you have hot water coming out of the pipes, you don't need a water boiler, which is something all houses without kaukol&#228;mp&#246; (remote heat) need. All in all, the infrastructure is in place in many places in Finland, with insulated pipes dug deep enough into the ground to keep the heat, so why not take advantage of it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not to mention that when you have hot water coming out of the pipes , you do n't need a water boiler , which is something all houses without kaukol   mp   ( remote heat ) need .
All in all , the infrastructure is in place in many places in Finland , with insulated pipes dug deep enough into the ground to keep the heat , so why not take advantage of it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not to mention that when you have hot water coming out of the pipes, you don't need a water boiler, which is something all houses without kaukolämpö (remote heat) need.
All in all, the infrastructure is in place in many places in Finland, with insulated pipes dug deep enough into the ground to keep the heat, so why not take advantage of it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30288490</id>
	<title>Re:Central Heating to the extreme</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259660460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Helsinki is in Finland, not in Soviet Russia 15 years ago. Almost whole city is heated by district  heating system.</p><p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District\_heating#Finland</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Helsinki is in Finland , not in Soviet Russia 15 years ago .
Almost whole city is heated by district heating system.http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District \ _heating # Finland</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Helsinki is in Finland, not in Soviet Russia 15 years ago.
Almost whole city is heated by district  heating system.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District\_heating#Finland</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287746</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30291182</id>
	<title>Re:Central Heating to the extreme</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259672340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The system in Helsinki is considerably more fine grained thankfully. Quickly looking at wikipedia, it says the availability is a whopping 99.98\%, I would assume for the duration of the remaining 0.02\%, the water in the system will retain enough heat not to affect much. The Helsinki network is also huge, so there is plenty of redundancy. Basically the entire metropolitan area is hooked up, fed by the excess energy of four coal plants, as well as perhaps 15 heat only plants that are fired up in the winter.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The system in Helsinki is considerably more fine grained thankfully .
Quickly looking at wikipedia , it says the availability is a whopping 99.98 \ % , I would assume for the duration of the remaining 0.02 \ % , the water in the system will retain enough heat not to affect much .
The Helsinki network is also huge , so there is plenty of redundancy .
Basically the entire metropolitan area is hooked up , fed by the excess energy of four coal plants , as well as perhaps 15 heat only plants that are fired up in the winter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The system in Helsinki is considerably more fine grained thankfully.
Quickly looking at wikipedia, it says the availability is a whopping 99.98\%, I would assume for the duration of the remaining 0.02\%, the water in the system will retain enough heat not to affect much.
The Helsinki network is also huge, so there is plenty of redundancy.
Basically the entire metropolitan area is hooked up, fed by the excess energy of four coal plants, as well as perhaps 15 heat only plants that are fired up in the winter.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287746</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30288196</id>
	<title>Re:WTF, why is a Carnot reference here?</title>
	<author>MillionthMonkey</author>
	<datestamp>1259659380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You're taking conservation of energy into account, but you're forgetting entropy. Think about it... do you really suppose, even in <i>theory</i>, that you could pump electricity into a datacenter, put pretty pictures on people's screens all over the world, and then pick up 100\% of that electricity back for use in heating your hot water? As if the electricity were merely waving "Hi" to the datacenter on its way to this water being <i>boiled</i>?<br> <br>You can shorten the line to as much as you want.  Assume no energy is lost to heat in the transmission lines. You'd still have a heat loss problem near the datacenter and whatever heat reclamation gizmo it's using. The max efficiency that can be extracted from a heat engine is 1-(Tc/Th) where Tc and Th are the <i>absolute</i> temperatures of the inside and outside in Kelvin. And 1-(273 / 300) = 0.1 or 10\%. Meaning that (assuming it's freezing outside and 27 degrees C in the datacenter), 10\% of the electrical power going to the datacenter could be reclaimed, in theory, if they were to extract all the energy that went into heating it from freezing (so the datacenter is freezing again). They're proud of themselves for getting 40\% of that or 4\%.<br> <br>

The rest of that energy goes toward warming the great outdoors which is at Tc. The Swedes have an advantage being so far North, but if they were to move their datacenter inside the Large Hadron Collider- or if they were to move the population of Sweden into the datacenter- your post would have more merit.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're taking conservation of energy into account , but you 're forgetting entropy .
Think about it... do you really suppose , even in theory , that you could pump electricity into a datacenter , put pretty pictures on people 's screens all over the world , and then pick up 100 \ % of that electricity back for use in heating your hot water ?
As if the electricity were merely waving " Hi " to the datacenter on its way to this water being boiled ?
You can shorten the line to as much as you want .
Assume no energy is lost to heat in the transmission lines .
You 'd still have a heat loss problem near the datacenter and whatever heat reclamation gizmo it 's using .
The max efficiency that can be extracted from a heat engine is 1- ( Tc/Th ) where Tc and Th are the absolute temperatures of the inside and outside in Kelvin .
And 1- ( 273 / 300 ) = 0.1 or 10 \ % .
Meaning that ( assuming it 's freezing outside and 27 degrees C in the datacenter ) , 10 \ % of the electrical power going to the datacenter could be reclaimed , in theory , if they were to extract all the energy that went into heating it from freezing ( so the datacenter is freezing again ) .
They 're proud of themselves for getting 40 \ % of that or 4 \ % .
The rest of that energy goes toward warming the great outdoors which is at Tc .
The Swedes have an advantage being so far North , but if they were to move their datacenter inside the Large Hadron Collider- or if they were to move the population of Sweden into the datacenter- your post would have more merit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're taking conservation of energy into account, but you're forgetting entropy.
Think about it... do you really suppose, even in theory, that you could pump electricity into a datacenter, put pretty pictures on people's screens all over the world, and then pick up 100\% of that electricity back for use in heating your hot water?
As if the electricity were merely waving "Hi" to the datacenter on its way to this water being boiled?
You can shorten the line to as much as you want.
Assume no energy is lost to heat in the transmission lines.
You'd still have a heat loss problem near the datacenter and whatever heat reclamation gizmo it's using.
The max efficiency that can be extracted from a heat engine is 1-(Tc/Th) where Tc and Th are the absolute temperatures of the inside and outside in Kelvin.
And 1-(273 / 300) = 0.1 or 10\%.
Meaning that (assuming it's freezing outside and 27 degrees C in the datacenter), 10\% of the electrical power going to the datacenter could be reclaimed, in theory, if they were to extract all the energy that went into heating it from freezing (so the datacenter is freezing again).
They're proud of themselves for getting 40\% of that or 4\%.
The rest of that energy goes toward warming the great outdoors which is at Tc.
The Swedes have an advantage being so far North, but if they were to move their datacenter inside the Large Hadron Collider- or if they were to move the population of Sweden into the datacenter- your post would have more merit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287174</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287578</id>
	<title>That's good</title>
	<author>Yvan256</author>
	<datestamp>1259700060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Honey, why are you watching so many porn streams at once?"<br>"Because I'm cold!"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Honey , why are you watching so many porn streams at once ?
" " Because I 'm cold !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Honey, why are you watching so many porn streams at once?
""Because I'm cold!
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30288036</id>
	<title>Re:WTF, why is a Carnot reference here?</title>
	<author>jank1887</author>
	<datestamp>1259658660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>because the summary is talking about two entirely separate topics. (1) Helsinki data center will deliver waste heat in useful form to the city.  (2)Researchers at MIT are working on a solid state heat-to-electric conversion element called a thermoelectric device. current devices are at best ~10\% of Carnot (practical devices approach 10\% total efficiency on a good day), and they say they'll hit 40-90\% of carnot with their new quantum dot TEG's. We'll see.</p><p>You are correct, though. Carnot efficiency discussion only really applies to (2) not (1).  Mister itwbennett just decided to lump these two things into one submission.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>because the summary is talking about two entirely separate topics .
( 1 ) Helsinki data center will deliver waste heat in useful form to the city .
( 2 ) Researchers at MIT are working on a solid state heat-to-electric conversion element called a thermoelectric device .
current devices are at best ~ 10 \ % of Carnot ( practical devices approach 10 \ % total efficiency on a good day ) , and they say they 'll hit 40-90 \ % of carnot with their new quantum dot TEG 's .
We 'll see.You are correct , though .
Carnot efficiency discussion only really applies to ( 2 ) not ( 1 ) .
Mister itwbennett just decided to lump these two things into one submission .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>because the summary is talking about two entirely separate topics.
(1) Helsinki data center will deliver waste heat in useful form to the city.
(2)Researchers at MIT are working on a solid state heat-to-electric conversion element called a thermoelectric device.
current devices are at best ~10\% of Carnot (practical devices approach 10\% total efficiency on a good day), and they say they'll hit 40-90\% of carnot with their new quantum dot TEG's.
We'll see.You are correct, though.
Carnot efficiency discussion only really applies to (2) not (1).
Mister itwbennett just decided to lump these two things into one submission.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287174</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287642</id>
	<title>Obligatory</title>
	<author>interiot</author>
	<datestamp>1259700360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>"The Internet is not a big truck. It's a series of tubes.  And if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it generates more heat and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of boiling water, enormous amounts of boiling water."</htmltext>
<tokenext>" The Internet is not a big truck .
It 's a series of tubes .
And if you do n't understand , those tubes can be filled and if they are filled , when you put your message in , it generates more heat and it 's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of boiling water , enormous amounts of boiling water .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"The Internet is not a big truck.
It's a series of tubes.
And if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it generates more heat and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of boiling water, enormous amounts of boiling water.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287594</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>amorsen</author>
	<datestamp>1259700120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's fairly common in Northern Europe (excepting England, for some reason). Losses aren't very high because the pipes are insulated. In modern systems the water isn't boiling, but it will take a long time before everything has been converted to lower temperature systems.</p><p>You can get extremely efficient by using low-temperature (30C or lower) remote heating plus a heat pump, but that means a large investment per house or apartment block.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's fairly common in Northern Europe ( excepting England , for some reason ) .
Losses are n't very high because the pipes are insulated .
In modern systems the water is n't boiling , but it will take a long time before everything has been converted to lower temperature systems.You can get extremely efficient by using low-temperature ( 30C or lower ) remote heating plus a heat pump , but that means a large investment per house or apartment block .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's fairly common in Northern Europe (excepting England, for some reason).
Losses aren't very high because the pipes are insulated.
In modern systems the water isn't boiling, but it will take a long time before everything has been converted to lower temperature systems.You can get extremely efficient by using low-temperature (30C or lower) remote heating plus a heat pump, but that means a large investment per house or apartment block.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287870</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>Idiomatick</author>
	<datestamp>1259658060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It is actually decently efficient. <br> <br>However, the cost of installing these systems is often costly. Since pipes obviously cost much more than water. For a good example we can look on a smaller scale. Many houses and buildings built 50+ years ago had cast iron radiators. We don't use them anymore because they are expensive as fuck to install and maintenance is more expensive. But overall efficiency is similar and in some cases better than present day systems.<br> <br>So I would guess it is a system already in place from older times. That or it is in a situation where it is still worth it over newer tech.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is actually decently efficient .
However , the cost of installing these systems is often costly .
Since pipes obviously cost much more than water .
For a good example we can look on a smaller scale .
Many houses and buildings built 50 + years ago had cast iron radiators .
We do n't use them anymore because they are expensive as fuck to install and maintenance is more expensive .
But overall efficiency is similar and in some cases better than present day systems .
So I would guess it is a system already in place from older times .
That or it is in a situation where it is still worth it over newer tech .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is actually decently efficient.
However, the cost of installing these systems is often costly.
Since pipes obviously cost much more than water.
For a good example we can look on a smaller scale.
Many houses and buildings built 50+ years ago had cast iron radiators.
We don't use them anymore because they are expensive as fuck to install and maintenance is more expensive.
But overall efficiency is similar and in some cases better than present day systems.
So I would guess it is a system already in place from older times.
That or it is in a situation where it is still worth it over newer tech.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30291362</id>
	<title>Telehouse West, London</title>
	<author>Anonymice</author>
	<datestamp>1259673180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>...the new &pound;80m extension to Telehouse Europe in the Docklands, is also being built with <a href="http://www.telehouse.net/press-releases/2009/2009-04-15/" title="telehouse.net" rel="nofollow">a similar idea in mind</a> [telehouse.net] &amp; is scheduled to begin operations during the <a href="http://www.telehouse.net/telehouse-west/" title="telehouse.net" rel="nofollow">first quarter of 2010</a> [telehouse.net].<p><div class="quote"><p>The partnership will see Telehouse West save up to 1,110 tonnes of CO2 emissions per annum and provide up to nine megawatts of power for the local neighbourhood. The energy savings will equate to boiling 3,000 kettles continuously. The disposal of waste heat from cooling systems is one of the most significant sustainability issues associated with data storage. This will be the first time a heat export strategy has been introduced in the UK for this type of data centre facility.</p></div><p>In fact, I seem to recall a discussion about this on here a couple of months ago about yet another project doing the same thing. The consensus was that whilst there was a lot of air pumped out, it wasn't exactly hot &amp; it wasn't useful for much more than good PR for the host - far better efficiencies could have been made, spending the money elsewhere. <i>(This statement brought to you by Slashdot whispers of an oriental nature.)</i></p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>...the new   80m extension to Telehouse Europe in the Docklands , is also being built with a similar idea in mind [ telehouse.net ] &amp; is scheduled to begin operations during the first quarter of 2010 [ telehouse.net ] .The partnership will see Telehouse West save up to 1,110 tonnes of CO2 emissions per annum and provide up to nine megawatts of power for the local neighbourhood .
The energy savings will equate to boiling 3,000 kettles continuously .
The disposal of waste heat from cooling systems is one of the most significant sustainability issues associated with data storage .
This will be the first time a heat export strategy has been introduced in the UK for this type of data centre facility.In fact , I seem to recall a discussion about this on here a couple of months ago about yet another project doing the same thing .
The consensus was that whilst there was a lot of air pumped out , it was n't exactly hot &amp; it was n't useful for much more than good PR for the host - far better efficiencies could have been made , spending the money elsewhere .
( This statement brought to you by Slashdot whispers of an oriental nature .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...the new £80m extension to Telehouse Europe in the Docklands, is also being built with a similar idea in mind [telehouse.net] &amp; is scheduled to begin operations during the first quarter of 2010 [telehouse.net].The partnership will see Telehouse West save up to 1,110 tonnes of CO2 emissions per annum and provide up to nine megawatts of power for the local neighbourhood.
The energy savings will equate to boiling 3,000 kettles continuously.
The disposal of waste heat from cooling systems is one of the most significant sustainability issues associated with data storage.
This will be the first time a heat export strategy has been introduced in the UK for this type of data centre facility.In fact, I seem to recall a discussion about this on here a couple of months ago about yet another project doing the same thing.
The consensus was that whilst there was a lot of air pumped out, it wasn't exactly hot &amp; it wasn't useful for much more than good PR for the host - far better efficiencies could have been made, spending the money elsewhere.
(This statement brought to you by Slashdot whispers of an oriental nature.
)
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287692</id>
	<title>Re:WTF, why is a Carnot reference here?</title>
	<author>vlm</author>
	<datestamp>1259700600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>How is the Carnot cycle apply here? This is direct heat conversion, and the efficiency should be near 100\%, you would have line losses.</p></div><p>Reading thru a filter of journalist ignorance, I think the journalist is trying to say they're using a heat pump to reject the heat from the cooling system into the heating system's boiling water.  There is a Carnot cycle limit to heat pumps.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How is the Carnot cycle apply here ?
This is direct heat conversion , and the efficiency should be near 100 \ % , you would have line losses.Reading thru a filter of journalist ignorance , I think the journalist is trying to say they 're using a heat pump to reject the heat from the cooling system into the heating system 's boiling water .
There is a Carnot cycle limit to heat pumps .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How is the Carnot cycle apply here?
This is direct heat conversion, and the efficiency should be near 100\%, you would have line losses.Reading thru a filter of journalist ignorance, I think the journalist is trying to say they're using a heat pump to reject the heat from the cooling system into the heating system's boiling water.
There is a Carnot cycle limit to heat pumps.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287174</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287462</id>
	<title>Re:WTF, why is a Carnot reference here?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259699700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Because you need a cycle to extract the waste heat. Lookup Organic Rankine Cycle.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because you need a cycle to extract the waste heat .
Lookup Organic Rankine Cycle .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because you need a cycle to extract the waste heat.
Lookup Organic Rankine Cycle.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287174</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287280</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259699040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Is pumping boiling water through pipes the most efficient way to heat houses? Isn't there a pretty massive heat loss in the pipes?</i></p><p>Presumably these pipes are insulated, and/or buried. And it is quite common for large buildings or campuses to use hot water with a central boiler for heat distribution.</p><p>In fact, many cities do that for heating &amp; cooling:</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District\_heating" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District\_heating</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is pumping boiling water through pipes the most efficient way to heat houses ?
Is n't there a pretty massive heat loss in the pipes ? Presumably these pipes are insulated , and/or buried .
And it is quite common for large buildings or campuses to use hot water with a central boiler for heat distribution.In fact , many cities do that for heating &amp; cooling : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District \ _heating [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is pumping boiling water through pipes the most efficient way to heat houses?
Isn't there a pretty massive heat loss in the pipes?Presumably these pipes are insulated, and/or buried.
And it is quite common for large buildings or campuses to use hot water with a central boiler for heat distribution.In fact, many cities do that for heating &amp; cooling:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District\_heating [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287868</id>
	<title>Re:Data center cooling in the winter</title>
	<author>djrok212</author>
	<datestamp>1259658060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>This already exists, and is in use in many data centers, they are called Air Side Economizers, <a href="http://www.42u.com/cooling/air-side-economizers.htm" title="42u.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.42u.com/cooling/air-side-economizers.htm</a> [42u.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>This already exists , and is in use in many data centers , they are called Air Side Economizers , http : //www.42u.com/cooling/air-side-economizers.htm [ 42u.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This already exists, and is in use in many data centers, they are called Air Side Economizers, http://www.42u.com/cooling/air-side-economizers.htm [42u.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287348</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287990</id>
	<title>Re:Valium and Xanax for Engineers and Physicists</title>
	<author>david.given</author>
	<datestamp>1259658480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>So, engineers and physicists, when you see statements like that, how do you cope:</p></div><p>Easily, because I know that a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat\_pump" title="wikipedia.org">heat pump</a> [wikipedia.org] is a machine that allows me to move 5X amount of heat from one location to another while only using X amount of energy to do it.

</p><p>(BTW, if you heat your house using electrical resistive heating, and you have a garden... go look up 'ground source heat pumps' from that article and save yourself lots of money.)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So , engineers and physicists , when you see statements like that , how do you cope : Easily , because I know that a heat pump [ wikipedia.org ] is a machine that allows me to move 5X amount of heat from one location to another while only using X amount of energy to do it .
( BTW , if you heat your house using electrical resistive heating , and you have a garden... go look up 'ground source heat pumps ' from that article and save yourself lots of money .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, engineers and physicists, when you see statements like that, how do you cope:Easily, because I know that a heat pump [wikipedia.org] is a machine that allows me to move 5X amount of heat from one location to another while only using X amount of energy to do it.
(BTW, if you heat your house using electrical resistive heating, and you have a garden... go look up 'ground source heat pumps' from that article and save yourself lots of money.
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287312</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287634</id>
	<title>Re:Valium and Xanax for Engineers and Physicists</title>
	<author>fred fleenblat</author>
	<datestamp>1259700300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>you could assume he might be talking about coefficient of performance but he doesn't remember the exact right phrase.</p><p>more troubling, even if he used the correct phrase, his intended audience probably wouldn't understand him.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>you could assume he might be talking about coefficient of performance but he does n't remember the exact right phrase.more troubling , even if he used the correct phrase , his intended audience probably would n't understand him .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>you could assume he might be talking about coefficient of performance but he doesn't remember the exact right phrase.more troubling, even if he used the correct phrase, his intended audience probably wouldn't understand him.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287312</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287746</id>
	<title>Central Heating to the extreme</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259700780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I experienced this to some extent when working in Magnetogorsk, Siberia in '94.  The hot water for a lot/all of the town was supplied centrally and piped all over the place in 1m diameter pipes (above ground).</p><p>Aside from the efficiency issues due to heat loss from the pipes, the main fun factor in this system was that the distribution was not terribly fine grained.  As a result the authorities shut down the hot water for entire sections of the city when they wanted to do extended maintenance - and by that I mean up to a month at a time.</p><p>Its amazing how short a time it takes to get enough hot water for a bath when you are heating it up one saucepan at a time on a stove!</p><p>Hopefully the people who will be reliant on the excess data centre heat won't have the same dependency problems.  Its much easier to hook up a spare electrical system than it is to re-pipe hot water</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I experienced this to some extent when working in Magnetogorsk , Siberia in '94 .
The hot water for a lot/all of the town was supplied centrally and piped all over the place in 1m diameter pipes ( above ground ) .Aside from the efficiency issues due to heat loss from the pipes , the main fun factor in this system was that the distribution was not terribly fine grained .
As a result the authorities shut down the hot water for entire sections of the city when they wanted to do extended maintenance - and by that I mean up to a month at a time.Its amazing how short a time it takes to get enough hot water for a bath when you are heating it up one saucepan at a time on a stove ! Hopefully the people who will be reliant on the excess data centre heat wo n't have the same dependency problems .
Its much easier to hook up a spare electrical system than it is to re-pipe hot water</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I experienced this to some extent when working in Magnetogorsk, Siberia in '94.
The hot water for a lot/all of the town was supplied centrally and piped all over the place in 1m diameter pipes (above ground).Aside from the efficiency issues due to heat loss from the pipes, the main fun factor in this system was that the distribution was not terribly fine grained.
As a result the authorities shut down the hot water for entire sections of the city when they wanted to do extended maintenance - and by that I mean up to a month at a time.Its amazing how short a time it takes to get enough hot water for a bath when you are heating it up one saucepan at a time on a stove!Hopefully the people who will be reliant on the excess data centre heat won't have the same dependency problems.
Its much easier to hook up a spare electrical system than it is to re-pipe hot water</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287624</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>Cyberax</author>
	<datestamp>1259700240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Usually, district heating uses waste heat from power plants. It'll be wasted anyway, so why not use it to heat houses?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Usually , district heating uses waste heat from power plants .
It 'll be wasted anyway , so why not use it to heat houses ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Usually, district heating uses waste heat from power plants.
It'll be wasted anyway, so why not use it to heat houses?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287600</id>
	<title>Re:Valium and Xanax for Engineers and Physicists</title>
	<author>JessGras</author>
	<datestamp>1259700120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Heat pumps can be this efficient when you consider the claim is they can move five times as much (heat) energy as they consume (in electicity or other organized source).  They are not claiming to generate more than they consume: only pump more than they consume - though vague and sensationalist phrasing in the journalism makes this unclear in the OP.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Heat pumps can be this efficient when you consider the claim is they can move five times as much ( heat ) energy as they consume ( in electicity or other organized source ) .
They are not claiming to generate more than they consume : only pump more than they consume - though vague and sensationalist phrasing in the journalism makes this unclear in the OP .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Heat pumps can be this efficient when you consider the claim is they can move five times as much (heat) energy as they consume (in electicity or other organized source).
They are not claiming to generate more than they consume: only pump more than they consume - though vague and sensationalist phrasing in the journalism makes this unclear in the OP.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287312</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30290274</id>
	<title>Heat Recovery Ventilation</title>
	<author>Doc Ruby</author>
	<datestamp>1259668080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Common commercial devices for homes already use heat exchangers to recover 66\% or more of heat from vented air, heating the incoming fresh air with it. During heating seasons, machinery's inefficiency generating heat can replace heat that would have consumed more energy. Bathroom fan vents cost under $300.</p><p>What we need is good heat storage devices. If a lot of heat can be stored during the cooling season, and released during the heating season, these electrical devices become close to 100\% efficient. Places like Helsinki have much longer heating than cooling seasons, so they're good places for datacenters that can recover heat for use.</p><p>The problem is that water is about the densest heat storage material we have, but it doesn't store very much. And even the most cutting edge insulators, aerogels, are only about 2x as insulating as the current common top performers, closed cell foams, and only about 4x as insulating as the earlier common stuff like fiberglass and cellulose. If we could store in similar volume the energy that fuels like oil store in chemical covalent bonds instead in physical materials like high specific heat fluids that don't get that hot, we'd have a lot more options in engineering efficiency. If we could regenerate chemical fuel from heat at very high cycle efficiency, we'd have something of a miracle cure for many of the worst of our industrial ills.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Common commercial devices for homes already use heat exchangers to recover 66 \ % or more of heat from vented air , heating the incoming fresh air with it .
During heating seasons , machinery 's inefficiency generating heat can replace heat that would have consumed more energy .
Bathroom fan vents cost under $ 300.What we need is good heat storage devices .
If a lot of heat can be stored during the cooling season , and released during the heating season , these electrical devices become close to 100 \ % efficient .
Places like Helsinki have much longer heating than cooling seasons , so they 're good places for datacenters that can recover heat for use.The problem is that water is about the densest heat storage material we have , but it does n't store very much .
And even the most cutting edge insulators , aerogels , are only about 2x as insulating as the current common top performers , closed cell foams , and only about 4x as insulating as the earlier common stuff like fiberglass and cellulose .
If we could store in similar volume the energy that fuels like oil store in chemical covalent bonds instead in physical materials like high specific heat fluids that do n't get that hot , we 'd have a lot more options in engineering efficiency .
If we could regenerate chemical fuel from heat at very high cycle efficiency , we 'd have something of a miracle cure for many of the worst of our industrial ills .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Common commercial devices for homes already use heat exchangers to recover 66\% or more of heat from vented air, heating the incoming fresh air with it.
During heating seasons, machinery's inefficiency generating heat can replace heat that would have consumed more energy.
Bathroom fan vents cost under $300.What we need is good heat storage devices.
If a lot of heat can be stored during the cooling season, and released during the heating season, these electrical devices become close to 100\% efficient.
Places like Helsinki have much longer heating than cooling seasons, so they're good places for datacenters that can recover heat for use.The problem is that water is about the densest heat storage material we have, but it doesn't store very much.
And even the most cutting edge insulators, aerogels, are only about 2x as insulating as the current common top performers, closed cell foams, and only about 4x as insulating as the earlier common stuff like fiberglass and cellulose.
If we could store in similar volume the energy that fuels like oil store in chemical covalent bonds instead in physical materials like high specific heat fluids that don't get that hot, we'd have a lot more options in engineering efficiency.
If we could regenerate chemical fuel from heat at very high cycle efficiency, we'd have something of a miracle cure for many of the worst of our industrial ills.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287936</id>
	<title>Space Heater</title>
	<author>jgtg32a</author>
	<datestamp>1259658300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>See my sig; My computer also functions as a nice little space heater, if I leave the door to the study closed it will become the warmest room in the house.</htmltext>
<tokenext>See my sig ; My computer also functions as a nice little space heater , if I leave the door to the study closed it will become the warmest room in the house .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>See my sig; My computer also functions as a nice little space heater, if I leave the door to the study closed it will become the warmest room in the house.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30292808</id>
	<title>Re:WTF, why is a Carnot reference here?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259682420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Because the temperature at which the "heat" comes out of a data centre is simply not high enough to use it for most practical purposes so the temperature has to be increased. From the Helsinki article "The pump is also very efficient -- you get five times the amount of energy you put in, he said" so the data centre is using a technology similar to ground source heat pumps with the district heating system as the sink. The problem with the efficiency claims here is that they are spending more electrical power to recover the heat from the data centre which doesn't need any air conditioning to start with due to it's location in Helsinki. Electrical power tends to be an inefficient way to heat things because the heat - electricity conversion is normally less than 40\% efficient whereas if you delivered that heat directly to the heating system....<br>So if we take the waste heat from the data centre they are recovering 4 units of heat for each unit of energy it consumes, we have, say 3 units of heat being converted to 1 unit of electricity for the data centre to use, we recover that 1 unit and add 0.25 units of electrical power (that is derived from 0.75 units of heat) to run the pump and we extract 1.25 units of heat for the district heating system out of 3.75 units of heat consumed by the system. No laws of entropy broken and no magic taking place.<br>There is a theoretical "saving" here of 0.5 units of heat out of every 3.75 assuming they achieve peak efficiency and have no losses elsewhere. There is no "data centres use 50\% of their power in cooling, we are more efficient" argument because they need to be compared with what would be built now and not some out of date design.<br>I would rather see them spend the time and effort writing slightly more efficient software that didn't need quite so many servers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because the temperature at which the " heat " comes out of a data centre is simply not high enough to use it for most practical purposes so the temperature has to be increased .
From the Helsinki article " The pump is also very efficient -- you get five times the amount of energy you put in , he said " so the data centre is using a technology similar to ground source heat pumps with the district heating system as the sink .
The problem with the efficiency claims here is that they are spending more electrical power to recover the heat from the data centre which does n't need any air conditioning to start with due to it 's location in Helsinki .
Electrical power tends to be an inefficient way to heat things because the heat - electricity conversion is normally less than 40 \ % efficient whereas if you delivered that heat directly to the heating system....So if we take the waste heat from the data centre they are recovering 4 units of heat for each unit of energy it consumes , we have , say 3 units of heat being converted to 1 unit of electricity for the data centre to use , we recover that 1 unit and add 0.25 units of electrical power ( that is derived from 0.75 units of heat ) to run the pump and we extract 1.25 units of heat for the district heating system out of 3.75 units of heat consumed by the system .
No laws of entropy broken and no magic taking place.There is a theoretical " saving " here of 0.5 units of heat out of every 3.75 assuming they achieve peak efficiency and have no losses elsewhere .
There is no " data centres use 50 \ % of their power in cooling , we are more efficient " argument because they need to be compared with what would be built now and not some out of date design.I would rather see them spend the time and effort writing slightly more efficient software that did n't need quite so many servers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because the temperature at which the "heat" comes out of a data centre is simply not high enough to use it for most practical purposes so the temperature has to be increased.
From the Helsinki article "The pump is also very efficient -- you get five times the amount of energy you put in, he said" so the data centre is using a technology similar to ground source heat pumps with the district heating system as the sink.
The problem with the efficiency claims here is that they are spending more electrical power to recover the heat from the data centre which doesn't need any air conditioning to start with due to it's location in Helsinki.
Electrical power tends to be an inefficient way to heat things because the heat - electricity conversion is normally less than 40\% efficient whereas if you delivered that heat directly to the heating system....So if we take the waste heat from the data centre they are recovering 4 units of heat for each unit of energy it consumes, we have, say 3 units of heat being converted to 1 unit of electricity for the data centre to use, we recover that 1 unit and add 0.25 units of electrical power (that is derived from 0.75 units of heat) to run the pump and we extract 1.25 units of heat for the district heating system out of 3.75 units of heat consumed by the system.
No laws of entropy broken and no magic taking place.There is a theoretical "saving" here of 0.5 units of heat out of every 3.75 assuming they achieve peak efficiency and have no losses elsewhere.
There is no "data centres use 50\% of their power in cooling, we are more efficient" argument because they need to be compared with what would be built now and not some out of date design.I would rather see them spend the time and effort writing slightly more efficient software that didn't need quite so many servers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287174</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30290250</id>
	<title>Re:WTF, why is a Carnot reference here?</title>
	<author>Intron</author>
	<datestamp>1259667960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The system I liked was the guy who cut the big hole in his kitchen wall.  In winter he puts the insulated board in front.  In the summer he pushes the back of his refrigerator through to the outside so its exhaust heat doesn't end up in his kitchen.  Cuts his A/C bill enough to be noticeable and takes less than one roll of duct tape per year.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The system I liked was the guy who cut the big hole in his kitchen wall .
In winter he puts the insulated board in front .
In the summer he pushes the back of his refrigerator through to the outside so its exhaust heat does n't end up in his kitchen .
Cuts his A/C bill enough to be noticeable and takes less than one roll of duct tape per year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The system I liked was the guy who cut the big hole in his kitchen wall.
In winter he puts the insulated board in front.
In the summer he pushes the back of his refrigerator through to the outside so its exhaust heat doesn't end up in his kitchen.
Cuts his A/C bill enough to be noticeable and takes less than one roll of duct tape per year.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30288196</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287670</id>
	<title>It's a fucking heat pump, people.</title>
	<author>R2.0</author>
	<datestamp>1259700480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It uses cold water from a central plant and then it gets cooled back down by a chiller/heat pump.  The condenser water off the heat pump is then used to heat homes.  Basically, the plant is rejecting it's heat into the local housing system.</p><p>The part about thermoelectric devices is a total <i>non-sequiter</i>.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It uses cold water from a central plant and then it gets cooled back down by a chiller/heat pump .
The condenser water off the heat pump is then used to heat homes .
Basically , the plant is rejecting it 's heat into the local housing system.The part about thermoelectric devices is a total non-sequiter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It uses cold water from a central plant and then it gets cooled back down by a chiller/heat pump.
The condenser water off the heat pump is then used to heat homes.
Basically, the plant is rejecting it's heat into the local housing system.The part about thermoelectric devices is a total non-sequiter.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</id>
	<title>I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>natehoy</author>
	<datestamp>1259698680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is pumping boiling water through pipes the most efficient way to heat houses?  Isn't there a pretty massive heat loss in the pipes?</p><p>Having said that, if they are already using this system for heat, the introduction of waste heat from a datacenter seems to make a lot of sense.  Acts as a heat sink for the data center, reduces the amount of energy needed to heat the water.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is pumping boiling water through pipes the most efficient way to heat houses ?
Is n't there a pretty massive heat loss in the pipes ? Having said that , if they are already using this system for heat , the introduction of waste heat from a datacenter seems to make a lot of sense .
Acts as a heat sink for the data center , reduces the amount of energy needed to heat the water .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is pumping boiling water through pipes the most efficient way to heat houses?
Isn't there a pretty massive heat loss in the pipes?Having said that, if they are already using this system for heat, the introduction of waste heat from a datacenter seems to make a lot of sense.
Acts as a heat sink for the data center, reduces the amount of energy needed to heat the water.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30289418</id>
	<title>Re:WTF, why is a Carnot reference here?</title>
	<author>pookie13</author>
	<datestamp>1259664540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The Swedes have an advantage being so far North, but if they were to move their datacenter inside the Large Hadron Collider- or if they were to move the population of Sweden into the datacenter- your post would have more merit.</p></div><p>Sweden? Last time I checked, Helsinki was still in Finland.

And no. We Finns wouldn't like the idea of 9.3 million more Swedes in Helsinki.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The Swedes have an advantage being so far North , but if they were to move their datacenter inside the Large Hadron Collider- or if they were to move the population of Sweden into the datacenter- your post would have more merit.Sweden ?
Last time I checked , Helsinki was still in Finland .
And no .
We Finns would n't like the idea of 9.3 million more Swedes in Helsinki .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Swedes have an advantage being so far North, but if they were to move their datacenter inside the Large Hadron Collider- or if they were to move the population of Sweden into the datacenter- your post would have more merit.Sweden?
Last time I checked, Helsinki was still in Finland.
And no.
We Finns wouldn't like the idea of 9.3 million more Swedes in Helsinki.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30288196</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287174</id>
	<title>WTF, why is a Carnot reference here?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259698680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>How is the Carnot cycle apply here? This is direct heat conversion, and the efficiency should be near 100\%, you would have line losses.</htmltext>
<tokenext>How is the Carnot cycle apply here ?
This is direct heat conversion , and the efficiency should be near 100 \ % , you would have line losses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How is the Carnot cycle apply here?
This is direct heat conversion, and the efficiency should be near 100\%, you would have line losses.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30295458</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>dkf</author>
	<datestamp>1259581140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>[District heating is] fairly common in Northern Europe (excepting England, for some reason).</p></div><p>It's usually used for industrial purposes in England rather than domestic or commercial. Part of this is due to the fact that large power plants tend to be located well outside cities (as an anti-pollution measure and because land values out in the boonies are lower).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>[ District heating is ] fairly common in Northern Europe ( excepting England , for some reason ) .It 's usually used for industrial purposes in England rather than domestic or commercial .
Part of this is due to the fact that large power plants tend to be located well outside cities ( as an anti-pollution measure and because land values out in the boonies are lower ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>[District heating is] fairly common in Northern Europe (excepting England, for some reason).It's usually used for industrial purposes in England rather than domestic or commercial.
Part of this is due to the fact that large power plants tend to be located well outside cities (as an anti-pollution measure and because land values out in the boonies are lower).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287594</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30290614</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>smoker2</author>
	<datestamp>1259669700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>He meant, they aren't connected to a large facility that sends hot water their way, which they aren't. It's really not difficult if you just read the whole summary.</htmltext>
<tokenext>He meant , they are n't connected to a large facility that sends hot water their way , which they are n't .
It 's really not difficult if you just read the whole summary .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He meant, they aren't connected to a large facility that sends hot water their way, which they aren't.
It's really not difficult if you just read the whole summary.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30289484</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30290710</id>
	<title>Re:What about the exec office?</title>
	<author>smoker2</author>
	<datestamp>1259670180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Fill their o[ro]ffices with water ?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Fill their o [ ro ] ffices with water ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fill their o[ro]ffices with water ?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30288016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30289920</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259666400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1) The pipes have some 4" of polyurethane insulation and they are buried 4-6 feet underground<br>2) the heat used in the district heating systems is excess heat  from coal/natural gas/wood burning powerplants that primarily generate electricity<br>So all in all, the district heating system is not too bad. It does have the downside that there is only one provider per area (your local power utility), so once you have joined the system you have to take any pricing changes they decide to make.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 ) The pipes have some 4 " of polyurethane insulation and they are buried 4-6 feet underground2 ) the heat used in the district heating systems is excess heat from coal/natural gas/wood burning powerplants that primarily generate electricitySo all in all , the district heating system is not too bad .
It does have the downside that there is only one provider per area ( your local power utility ) , so once you have joined the system you have to take any pricing changes they decide to make .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1) The pipes have some 4" of polyurethane insulation and they are buried 4-6 feet underground2) the heat used in the district heating systems is excess heat  from coal/natural gas/wood burning powerplants that primarily generate electricitySo all in all, the district heating system is not too bad.
It does have the downside that there is only one provider per area (your local power utility), so once you have joined the system you have to take any pricing changes they decide to make.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30289152</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1259663280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It depends on the priorities and the source of the heat. Steam turbines have a considerable load of waste heat that has to be dumped somewhere. No sense heating a lake if it can heat homes instead. Since it is waste heat, the efficiency hardly matters, any usefulness beats the alternative.</p><p>In other cases the choice is between many small boilers or one big one with exhaust scrubbers and more complete combustion. With good pipe insulation that can be a win.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It depends on the priorities and the source of the heat .
Steam turbines have a considerable load of waste heat that has to be dumped somewhere .
No sense heating a lake if it can heat homes instead .
Since it is waste heat , the efficiency hardly matters , any usefulness beats the alternative.In other cases the choice is between many small boilers or one big one with exhaust scrubbers and more complete combustion .
With good pipe insulation that can be a win .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It depends on the priorities and the source of the heat.
Steam turbines have a considerable load of waste heat that has to be dumped somewhere.
No sense heating a lake if it can heat homes instead.
Since it is waste heat, the efficiency hardly matters, any usefulness beats the alternative.In other cases the choice is between many small boilers or one big one with exhaust scrubbers and more complete combustion.
With good pipe insulation that can be a win.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30296956</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>moosesocks</author>
	<datestamp>1259594940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A (very) large portion of Manhattan is heated via a central steam system.  It's <i>incredibly</i> efficient, and is also the reason why almost no NYC buildings have noticeable smokestacks, and why the city was actually quite clean until the rise of the automobile.  By concentrating the coal burning into a few points (5 IIRC), pollution in the city was greatly reduced.</p><p>On a somewhat more scary note, thanks to decades of neglect, many of the original pipes are still in use, carrying high-pressure steam.  Failures are pretty <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SImhkapRuIs" title="youtube.com">spectacular</a> [youtube.com]...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A ( very ) large portion of Manhattan is heated via a central steam system .
It 's incredibly efficient , and is also the reason why almost no NYC buildings have noticeable smokestacks , and why the city was actually quite clean until the rise of the automobile .
By concentrating the coal burning into a few points ( 5 IIRC ) , pollution in the city was greatly reduced.On a somewhat more scary note , thanks to decades of neglect , many of the original pipes are still in use , carrying high-pressure steam .
Failures are pretty spectacular [ youtube.com ] .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A (very) large portion of Manhattan is heated via a central steam system.
It's incredibly efficient, and is also the reason why almost no NYC buildings have noticeable smokestacks, and why the city was actually quite clean until the rise of the automobile.
By concentrating the coal burning into a few points (5 IIRC), pollution in the city was greatly reduced.On a somewhat more scary note, thanks to decades of neglect, many of the original pipes are still in use, carrying high-pressure steam.
Failures are pretty spectacular [youtube.com]...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287898</id>
	<title>Re:Valium and Xanax for Engineers and Physicists</title>
	<author>kryptKnight</author>
	<datestamp>1259658180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You might want to go read about <a href="http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/infosource/pub/home/heating-heat-pump/booklet.pdf" title="nrcan.gc.ca">heat pumps</a> [nrcan.gc.ca].  What the article describes is perfectly possible, using heat pumps for heating and cooling is very common in temperate climates.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You might want to go read about heat pumps [ nrcan.gc.ca ] .
What the article describes is perfectly possible , using heat pumps for heating and cooling is very common in temperate climates .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You might want to go read about heat pumps [nrcan.gc.ca].
What the article describes is perfectly possible, using heat pumps for heating and cooling is very common in temperate climates.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287312</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287424</id>
	<title>Re:I think it's great, but...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259699580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On its own it isn't the most efficient system, but these systems are typically build to make use of waste heat produced by electricity plants or heavy industries, thus increasing overall energy efficiency.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On its own it is n't the most efficient system , but these systems are typically build to make use of waste heat produced by electricity plants or heavy industries , thus increasing overall energy efficiency .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On its own it isn't the most efficient system, but these systems are typically build to make use of waste heat produced by electricity plants or heavy industries, thus increasing overall energy efficiency.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30287184</parent>
</comment>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_01_1845250_34</id>
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</commentlist>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_01_1845250_1</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_01_1845250_10</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30292808
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_01_1845250_35</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30295686
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_12_01_1845250_26</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30290250
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_01_1845250.30288196
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