<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_11_20_0742226</id>
	<title>Federal Judge Says Corps of Engineers Liable For Katrina Damage</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1258722660000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="http://hughpickens.com/slashdot/" rel="nofollow">Hugh Pickens</a> writes <i>"The Christian Science Monitor reports that a federal judge has ruled that the Army Corps of Engineers &mdash; and thus the US government &mdash; is liable for a big chunk of the damage caused when hurricane Katrina pushed ashore on August 29, 2005 by <a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1119/p02s20-usgn.html">failing to stop the natural widening of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet canal</a> (aka Mr. Go) causing it to eventually bump up against the shore of Lake Borgne, on the city's east side. 'It is the court's opinion that the negligence of the corps, in this instance by failing to maintain the MR-GO properly, was not policy, but insouciance, myopia, and shortsightedness,' wrote US District Court Judge Stanwood Duval. <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8367702.stm">Judge Duval said he believed it was the failure to shore up the outlet</a> that 'doomed the channel to grow to two to three times its design width' allowing waves on Lake Borgne to enter the Mr. Go and travel into the east side of the city, battering the levees to a degree to which they were not designed. 'One of the greatest catastrophes in the history of the US' was both predictable and preventable, testified veteran Louisiana geologist Sherwood Gagliano, a former Corps consultant."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hugh Pickens writes " The Christian Science Monitor reports that a federal judge has ruled that the Army Corps of Engineers    and thus the US government    is liable for a big chunk of the damage caused when hurricane Katrina pushed ashore on August 29 , 2005 by failing to stop the natural widening of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet canal ( aka Mr. Go ) causing it to eventually bump up against the shore of Lake Borgne , on the city 's east side .
'It is the court 's opinion that the negligence of the corps , in this instance by failing to maintain the MR-GO properly , was not policy , but insouciance , myopia , and shortsightedness, ' wrote US District Court Judge Stanwood Duval .
Judge Duval said he believed it was the failure to shore up the outlet that 'doomed the channel to grow to two to three times its design width ' allowing waves on Lake Borgne to enter the Mr. Go and travel into the east side of the city , battering the levees to a degree to which they were not designed .
'One of the greatest catastrophes in the history of the US ' was both predictable and preventable , testified veteran Louisiana geologist Sherwood Gagliano , a former Corps consultant .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hugh Pickens writes "The Christian Science Monitor reports that a federal judge has ruled that the Army Corps of Engineers — and thus the US government — is liable for a big chunk of the damage caused when hurricane Katrina pushed ashore on August 29, 2005 by failing to stop the natural widening of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet canal (aka Mr. Go) causing it to eventually bump up against the shore of Lake Borgne, on the city's east side.
'It is the court's opinion that the negligence of the corps, in this instance by failing to maintain the MR-GO properly, was not policy, but insouciance, myopia, and shortsightedness,' wrote US District Court Judge Stanwood Duval.
Judge Duval said he believed it was the failure to shore up the outlet that 'doomed the channel to grow to two to three times its design width' allowing waves on Lake Borgne to enter the Mr. Go and travel into the east side of the city, battering the levees to a degree to which they were not designed.
'One of the greatest catastrophes in the history of the US' was both predictable and preventable, testified veteran Louisiana geologist Sherwood Gagliano, a former Corps consultant.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170744</id>
	<title>Re:This is total BS</title>
	<author>Dunkirk</author>
	<datestamp>1258730880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Came here to say this.</p><p>Government -- local, state, and federal -- have poured what I can only assume are billions of dollars, at this point, of bungled aid into the reconstruction of this area. Now, we're going to hold the government liable for the problem in the first place, opening the door for all sorts of civil litigation that will get rounded up as class action lawsuits, which will do 2 things. First, it will still leave people scratching their heads on how to get some money to rebuild. Secondly, it's time for all literally hundreds lawyers to get theirs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Came here to say this.Government -- local , state , and federal -- have poured what I can only assume are billions of dollars , at this point , of bungled aid into the reconstruction of this area .
Now , we 're going to hold the government liable for the problem in the first place , opening the door for all sorts of civil litigation that will get rounded up as class action lawsuits , which will do 2 things .
First , it will still leave people scratching their heads on how to get some money to rebuild .
Secondly , it 's time for all literally hundreds lawyers to get theirs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Came here to say this.Government -- local, state, and federal -- have poured what I can only assume are billions of dollars, at this point, of bungled aid into the reconstruction of this area.
Now, we're going to hold the government liable for the problem in the first place, opening the door for all sorts of civil litigation that will get rounded up as class action lawsuits, which will do 2 things.
First, it will still leave people scratching their heads on how to get some money to rebuild.
Secondly, it's time for all literally hundreds lawyers to get theirs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170418</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30182096</id>
	<title>Corps of Engineers Liable For Katrina Damage</title>
	<author>falconwolf</author>
	<datestamp>1258740360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, the Corps of Engineers is liable for Katrina damage but so is the city and others.  The city is responsible for allowing construction and builders are responsible for building on land that's at sea level if not below it.</p><p>

Falcon</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , the Corps of Engineers is liable for Katrina damage but so is the city and others .
The city is responsible for allowing construction and builders are responsible for building on land that 's at sea level if not below it .
Falcon</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, the Corps of Engineers is liable for Katrina damage but so is the city and others.
The city is responsible for allowing construction and builders are responsible for building on land that's at sea level if not below it.
Falcon</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170546</id>
	<title>Re:Predictable...</title>
	<author>Sockatume</author>
	<datestamp>1258729680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's easy to say, but at the time New Orleans was founded, all that stuff pretty much <i>did</i> have to be there. Time passed, and it grew, and the desire for continuity meant that it stayed there. And now you've got a choice between abandoning the city to rot because it's in a dangerous location, or using some less-than-space-age engineering know-how to render it safe. The error here isn't that the latter was chosen, but that it was chosen and not properly followed through on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's easy to say , but at the time New Orleans was founded , all that stuff pretty much did have to be there .
Time passed , and it grew , and the desire for continuity meant that it stayed there .
And now you 've got a choice between abandoning the city to rot because it 's in a dangerous location , or using some less-than-space-age engineering know-how to render it safe .
The error here is n't that the latter was chosen , but that it was chosen and not properly followed through on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's easy to say, but at the time New Orleans was founded, all that stuff pretty much did have to be there.
Time passed, and it grew, and the desire for continuity meant that it stayed there.
And now you've got a choice between abandoning the city to rot because it's in a dangerous location, or using some less-than-space-age engineering know-how to render it safe.
The error here isn't that the latter was chosen, but that it was chosen and not properly followed through on.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30173554</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>sexconker</author>
	<datestamp>1258742280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No.  It's retarded.</p><p>They knew for over 4 decades that the levees wouldn't hold up to a cat 3.</p><p>They refused to fix it for 4 decades.</p><p>It's the fault of the damned local government and the damned local people who refused to fix it.<br>They actively worked to prevent repairs and construction because they feared it would hurt their economy and interrupt mardi gras.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No .
It 's retarded.They knew for over 4 decades that the levees would n't hold up to a cat 3.They refused to fix it for 4 decades.It 's the fault of the damned local government and the damned local people who refused to fix it.They actively worked to prevent repairs and construction because they feared it would hurt their economy and interrupt mardi gras .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No.
It's retarded.They knew for over 4 decades that the levees wouldn't hold up to a cat 3.They refused to fix it for 4 decades.It's the fault of the damned local government and the damned local people who refused to fix it.They actively worked to prevent repairs and construction because they feared it would hurt their economy and interrupt mardi gras.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170914</id>
	<title>Bush administration in 3 words</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258731720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>insouciance, myopia, and shortsightedness</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>insouciance , myopia , and shortsightedness</tokentext>
<sentencetext>insouciance, myopia, and shortsightedness</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30174506</id>
	<title>NSF Funded UC Berkley Study</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258745520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For all those who feel it necessary to spout Randian edicts about the folly of parasites ignoring the engineering superman, please ensure that you have read the entire document: <a href="http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/projects/neworleans/report/intro&amp;summary.pdf" title="berkeley.edu" rel="nofollow">Investigation of the Performance of the New Orleans Flood Protection Systems in Hurricane Katrina on August 29, 2005 (July 31, 2006)</a> [berkeley.edu](pdf), the one led by UC Berkley</p><p>-(random quote): A large number of engineering errors and poor judgements contributed to these three catastrophic design failures, as detailed in Chapter 8. In addition, a number of these same problems appear to be somewhat pervasive, and call into question the integrity and reliability of other sections of the flood protection system that did not fail during this event. Indeed, additional levee and floodwall sections appear to have been potentially heading towards failure when they were &ldquo;saved&rdquo; by the occurrence of the three large breaches (which rapidly drew down the canal water levels and thus reduced the loading on nearby levee and floodwall sections.)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>For all those who feel it necessary to spout Randian edicts about the folly of parasites ignoring the engineering superman , please ensure that you have read the entire document : Investigation of the Performance of the New Orleans Flood Protection Systems in Hurricane Katrina on August 29 , 2005 ( July 31 , 2006 ) [ berkeley.edu ] ( pdf ) , the one led by UC Berkley- ( random quote ) : A large number of engineering errors and poor judgements contributed to these three catastrophic design failures , as detailed in Chapter 8 .
In addition , a number of these same problems appear to be somewhat pervasive , and call into question the integrity and reliability of other sections of the flood protection system that did not fail during this event .
Indeed , additional levee and floodwall sections appear to have been potentially heading towards failure when they were    saved    by the occurrence of the three large breaches ( which rapidly drew down the canal water levels and thus reduced the loading on nearby levee and floodwall sections .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For all those who feel it necessary to spout Randian edicts about the folly of parasites ignoring the engineering superman, please ensure that you have read the entire document: Investigation of the Performance of the New Orleans Flood Protection Systems in Hurricane Katrina on August 29, 2005 (July 31, 2006) [berkeley.edu](pdf), the one led by UC Berkley-(random quote): A large number of engineering errors and poor judgements contributed to these three catastrophic design failures, as detailed in Chapter 8.
In addition, a number of these same problems appear to be somewhat pervasive, and call into question the integrity and reliability of other sections of the flood protection system that did not fail during this event.
Indeed, additional levee and floodwall sections appear to have been potentially heading towards failure when they were “saved” by the occurrence of the three large breaches (which rapidly drew down the canal water levels and thus reduced the loading on nearby levee and floodwall sections.
)
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30175106</id>
	<title>Some info left out</title>
	<author>redhat\_redneck</author>
	<datestamp>1258747440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The levee that broke was known to be defective by all parties involved and was the subject of a 1993 lawsuit against the now bankrupt Pittman Construction. It was not just known, but part of the public record, that this levee was defective more than 12 years prior to Katrina. The COE may bear some portion of liablity but changes and upgrades have been ignored by the city, state, and citizens. Local levee boards spent their funding on parks and casinos.  I might add that nearly all of those levee boards have now been disbanded.  All parties involved bear a portion of responsibilty and the COE owns the smallest portion.  Let's put the city and state on trial for what they knew and when they knew it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The levee that broke was known to be defective by all parties involved and was the subject of a 1993 lawsuit against the now bankrupt Pittman Construction .
It was not just known , but part of the public record , that this levee was defective more than 12 years prior to Katrina .
The COE may bear some portion of liablity but changes and upgrades have been ignored by the city , state , and citizens .
Local levee boards spent their funding on parks and casinos .
I might add that nearly all of those levee boards have now been disbanded .
All parties involved bear a portion of responsibilty and the COE owns the smallest portion .
Let 's put the city and state on trial for what they knew and when they knew it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The levee that broke was known to be defective by all parties involved and was the subject of a 1993 lawsuit against the now bankrupt Pittman Construction.
It was not just known, but part of the public record, that this levee was defective more than 12 years prior to Katrina.
The COE may bear some portion of liablity but changes and upgrades have been ignored by the city, state, and citizens.
Local levee boards spent their funding on parks and casinos.
I might add that nearly all of those levee boards have now been disbanded.
All parties involved bear a portion of responsibilty and the COE owns the smallest portion.
Let's put the city and state on trial for what they knew and when they knew it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30173530</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>whitelabrat</author>
	<datestamp>1258742160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think we are seeing a glimpse of the future.  Here in the USA we've spent a century building infrastructure that nobody appears to want to maintain.  A levee breaks, a bridge collapses.  The real folks to blame are ourselves for not kicking up a stink the poor state of our country's infrastructure.  We should also blame a political system that is only interested in buying votes and getting paid rather than doing what is best for our country.  If our politicians understand that infrastructure = votes, then things may change if corruption doesn't get in the way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think we are seeing a glimpse of the future .
Here in the USA we 've spent a century building infrastructure that nobody appears to want to maintain .
A levee breaks , a bridge collapses .
The real folks to blame are ourselves for not kicking up a stink the poor state of our country 's infrastructure .
We should also blame a political system that is only interested in buying votes and getting paid rather than doing what is best for our country .
If our politicians understand that infrastructure = votes , then things may change if corruption does n't get in the way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think we are seeing a glimpse of the future.
Here in the USA we've spent a century building infrastructure that nobody appears to want to maintain.
A levee breaks, a bridge collapses.
The real folks to blame are ourselves for not kicking up a stink the poor state of our country's infrastructure.
We should also blame a political system that is only interested in buying votes and getting paid rather than doing what is best for our country.
If our politicians understand that infrastructure = votes, then things may change if corruption doesn't get in the way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170642</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170312</id>
	<title>Re:Bush cut funds for levee project</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258728180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>funding for the flood control project essentially dried up</p></div><p>I think that one deserves a <a href="http://www.instantrimshot.com/" title="instantrimshot.com">rim shot</a> [instantrimshot.com].</p><p>But yes, one of the many causes of Hurricane Katrina was short-termism and a "cut government spending" ideology that led to underfunding of essential maintenance of levees, bridges and other not-so-glamorous infrastructure in many parts of the country.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>funding for the flood control project essentially dried upI think that one deserves a rim shot [ instantrimshot.com ] .But yes , one of the many causes of Hurricane Katrina was short-termism and a " cut government spending " ideology that led to underfunding of essential maintenance of levees , bridges and other not-so-glamorous infrastructure in many parts of the country .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>funding for the flood control project essentially dried upI think that one deserves a rim shot [instantrimshot.com].But yes, one of the many causes of Hurricane Katrina was short-termism and a "cut government spending" ideology that led to underfunding of essential maintenance of levees, bridges and other not-so-glamorous infrastructure in many parts of the country.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30174834</id>
	<title>Law Suit Wil Be Overturned</title>
	<author>b4upoo</author>
	<datestamp>1258746540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>           The Corps may very well have used poor judgment that led to the disaster in New Orleans. But the law suit will not stand. In essence the Corps of Engineers is an extension of government and the publics control of funding through taxes limits both the quality and number of projects that the Corps can undertake.   After the decades of budget cutting, which were a part of numerous republican presidential platforms, the failure of a project here and there could be easily foreseen. In essence the people of the United States are suing themselves. Yet the people were the ones who wanted all of the tax relief that led to this type of catastrophe. Higher courts will dump this law suit and claim sovereignty as an excuse.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The nature of this problem persists in that current policies are to simply build levies that will stand up to class III storms in New Orleans. It is a fact that class IV and class V storms will certainly hit New Orleans. Massive death and destruction will occur due to this ongoing policy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The Corps may very well have used poor judgment that led to the disaster in New Orleans .
But the law suit will not stand .
In essence the Corps of Engineers is an extension of government and the publics control of funding through taxes limits both the quality and number of projects that the Corps can undertake .
After the decades of budget cutting , which were a part of numerous republican presidential platforms , the failure of a project here and there could be easily foreseen .
In essence the people of the United States are suing themselves .
Yet the people were the ones who wanted all of the tax relief that led to this type of catastrophe .
Higher courts will dump this law suit and claim sovereignty as an excuse .
                    The nature of this problem persists in that current policies are to simply build levies that will stand up to class III storms in New Orleans .
It is a fact that class IV and class V storms will certainly hit New Orleans .
Massive death and destruction will occur due to this ongoing policy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>           The Corps may very well have used poor judgment that led to the disaster in New Orleans.
But the law suit will not stand.
In essence the Corps of Engineers is an extension of government and the publics control of funding through taxes limits both the quality and number of projects that the Corps can undertake.
After the decades of budget cutting, which were a part of numerous republican presidential platforms, the failure of a project here and there could be easily foreseen.
In essence the people of the United States are suing themselves.
Yet the people were the ones who wanted all of the tax relief that led to this type of catastrophe.
Higher courts will dump this law suit and claim sovereignty as an excuse.
                    The nature of this problem persists in that current policies are to simply build levies that will stand up to class III storms in New Orleans.
It is a fact that class IV and class V storms will certainly hit New Orleans.
Massive death and destruction will occur due to this ongoing policy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30173750</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>sexconker</author>
	<datestamp>1258743060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But it was the local government that refused to do the necessary repairs, maintenance, and new construction that they were told needed to be done.</p><p>For four decades.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But it was the local government that refused to do the necessary repairs , maintenance , and new construction that they were told needed to be done.For four decades .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But it was the local government that refused to do the necessary repairs, maintenance, and new construction that they were told needed to be done.For four decades.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171552</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171416</id>
	<title>Sue the Pope next</title>
	<author>cryfreedomlove</author>
	<datestamp>1258734180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>New Orleans is heavily Catholic and God could have steered Katrina away.  As God's representative on earth, we should sue Pope Benedict.</htmltext>
<tokenext>New Orleans is heavily Catholic and God could have steered Katrina away .
As God 's representative on earth , we should sue Pope Benedict .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>New Orleans is heavily Catholic and God could have steered Katrina away.
As God's representative on earth, we should sue Pope Benedict.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171006</id>
	<title>Re:Predictable...</title>
	<author>CoonAss56</author>
	<datestamp>1258732200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Insightful, are you fucking kidding me!!! All you assholes who are posting this shit I wanna know one thing- Do you like drinking your coffee, driving your car, eating food, etc,? Because if you do (sitting behind your shitty computers and ranting about events you absolutely know NOTHING about) you NEED New Orleans. It is the largest port in America, we refine all your gasoline because you assholes don't refineries in your backyard, and you vacation in our hometown like it's some kind of Disneyland. It's not, it's our home. Also the birthplace of jazz, environment for writers such as Faulkner, Tennessee Williams,etc. Do that in your backwoods noname shithole thank you very much!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Insightful , are you fucking kidding me ! ! !
All you assholes who are posting this shit I wan na know one thing- Do you like drinking your coffee , driving your car , eating food , etc , ?
Because if you do ( sitting behind your shitty computers and ranting about events you absolutely know NOTHING about ) you NEED New Orleans .
It is the largest port in America , we refine all your gasoline because you assholes do n't refineries in your backyard , and you vacation in our hometown like it 's some kind of Disneyland .
It 's not , it 's our home .
Also the birthplace of jazz , environment for writers such as Faulkner , Tennessee Williams,etc .
Do that in your backwoods noname shithole thank you very much ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Insightful, are you fucking kidding me!!!
All you assholes who are posting this shit I wanna know one thing- Do you like drinking your coffee, driving your car, eating food, etc,?
Because if you do (sitting behind your shitty computers and ranting about events you absolutely know NOTHING about) you NEED New Orleans.
It is the largest port in America, we refine all your gasoline because you assholes don't refineries in your backyard, and you vacation in our hometown like it's some kind of Disneyland.
It's not, it's our home.
Also the birthplace of jazz, environment for writers such as Faulkner, Tennessee Williams,etc.
Do that in your backwoods noname shithole thank you very much!!
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171500</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Dripdry</author>
	<datestamp>1258734600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So, before Katrina did you know all about the levees?<br>Is that one of those tourist hotspots that everybody goes to see?</p><p>Usually when I visit, live in, or know someone who moves to a city, the last thing on their mind is whether the fundamental infrastructure of the city could collapse and kill everybody. Usually they just want to get their shit moved and get to their new job or open their business.</p><p>Anyone who knows anything about civil engineers that build these? They take on the responsibility for those structures. Since it was built by a government agency, designed to make the area habitable and protect people, not ONLY should the government be keeping track of it (that's one thing we pay taxes for! People ARE being responsible, they're paying for that service!) but so should the engineers who built it, because they're legally liable in the first place.</p><p>Let's put it another way:  I hire a financial advisor. I have extensive discussions with him and do my part ensure that he/she is competent. I talk to others who work with them and am told that they have a great reputation. Now, since I haev a family to feed and a life to live, I leave my assets with the fellow, who checks in with me regularly and ASSURES me, since I AM PAYING HIM TOO, that my assets are well invested and everything is moving along fine. That person is DOING THEIR JOB.</p><p>Suddenly, the market crashes. OH NOZ! I call my advisor and he tells me that all my money had ACTUALLY been invested in PINE NEEDLE FUTURES!  "PINE NEEDLE FUTURES!?!?!" I scream over the phone, "You told me it was well diversified for my goals, time horizon, and risk tolerance!"    I proceed to sue the living daylights out of this person and, you know what? Chances are I would win.  I was told one thing, that everything was ok given my scenario. The reality of the situation was completely false. The PROFESSIONAL WHO TOLD ME THAT took what is effectively an oath by getting certain certifications (series 66 and 7 most likely) that legally binds them to fiduciary responsibility.</p><p>So, what you seem to be advocating is that everyone in New Orleans become a Certified Professional Engineer, geologist, inspector and/or obtain other necessary knowledge to understand whether they are safe or not. Tell you what: It's THE JOB of the government and the Army Corps of Engineers NOT to lie to people when they say "Everything is in good order."</p><p>It's called Society, and it only works on that basis of trust, otherwise we'd still be individually foraging for nuts, berries, and small game. When that trust is breached there are consequences.</p><p>We can each have different limits of personal responsibility, but the one you advocate feels a little bit over the line, especially for such an undereducated populace like that in New Orleans.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So , before Katrina did you know all about the levees ? Is that one of those tourist hotspots that everybody goes to see ? Usually when I visit , live in , or know someone who moves to a city , the last thing on their mind is whether the fundamental infrastructure of the city could collapse and kill everybody .
Usually they just want to get their shit moved and get to their new job or open their business.Anyone who knows anything about civil engineers that build these ?
They take on the responsibility for those structures .
Since it was built by a government agency , designed to make the area habitable and protect people , not ONLY should the government be keeping track of it ( that 's one thing we pay taxes for !
People ARE being responsible , they 're paying for that service !
) but so should the engineers who built it , because they 're legally liable in the first place.Let 's put it another way : I hire a financial advisor .
I have extensive discussions with him and do my part ensure that he/she is competent .
I talk to others who work with them and am told that they have a great reputation .
Now , since I haev a family to feed and a life to live , I leave my assets with the fellow , who checks in with me regularly and ASSURES me , since I AM PAYING HIM TOO , that my assets are well invested and everything is moving along fine .
That person is DOING THEIR JOB.Suddenly , the market crashes .
OH NOZ !
I call my advisor and he tells me that all my money had ACTUALLY been invested in PINE NEEDLE FUTURES !
" PINE NEEDLE FUTURES ! ? ! ? !
" I scream over the phone , " You told me it was well diversified for my goals , time horizon , and risk tolerance !
" I proceed to sue the living daylights out of this person and , you know what ?
Chances are I would win .
I was told one thing , that everything was ok given my scenario .
The reality of the situation was completely false .
The PROFESSIONAL WHO TOLD ME THAT took what is effectively an oath by getting certain certifications ( series 66 and 7 most likely ) that legally binds them to fiduciary responsibility.So , what you seem to be advocating is that everyone in New Orleans become a Certified Professional Engineer , geologist , inspector and/or obtain other necessary knowledge to understand whether they are safe or not .
Tell you what : It 's THE JOB of the government and the Army Corps of Engineers NOT to lie to people when they say " Everything is in good order .
" It 's called Society , and it only works on that basis of trust , otherwise we 'd still be individually foraging for nuts , berries , and small game .
When that trust is breached there are consequences.We can each have different limits of personal responsibility , but the one you advocate feels a little bit over the line , especially for such an undereducated populace like that in New Orleans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, before Katrina did you know all about the levees?Is that one of those tourist hotspots that everybody goes to see?Usually when I visit, live in, or know someone who moves to a city, the last thing on their mind is whether the fundamental infrastructure of the city could collapse and kill everybody.
Usually they just want to get their shit moved and get to their new job or open their business.Anyone who knows anything about civil engineers that build these?
They take on the responsibility for those structures.
Since it was built by a government agency, designed to make the area habitable and protect people, not ONLY should the government be keeping track of it (that's one thing we pay taxes for!
People ARE being responsible, they're paying for that service!
) but so should the engineers who built it, because they're legally liable in the first place.Let's put it another way:  I hire a financial advisor.
I have extensive discussions with him and do my part ensure that he/she is competent.
I talk to others who work with them and am told that they have a great reputation.
Now, since I haev a family to feed and a life to live, I leave my assets with the fellow, who checks in with me regularly and ASSURES me, since I AM PAYING HIM TOO, that my assets are well invested and everything is moving along fine.
That person is DOING THEIR JOB.Suddenly, the market crashes.
OH NOZ!
I call my advisor and he tells me that all my money had ACTUALLY been invested in PINE NEEDLE FUTURES!
"PINE NEEDLE FUTURES!?!?!
" I scream over the phone, "You told me it was well diversified for my goals, time horizon, and risk tolerance!
"    I proceed to sue the living daylights out of this person and, you know what?
Chances are I would win.
I was told one thing, that everything was ok given my scenario.
The reality of the situation was completely false.
The PROFESSIONAL WHO TOLD ME THAT took what is effectively an oath by getting certain certifications (series 66 and 7 most likely) that legally binds them to fiduciary responsibility.So, what you seem to be advocating is that everyone in New Orleans become a Certified Professional Engineer, geologist, inspector and/or obtain other necessary knowledge to understand whether they are safe or not.
Tell you what: It's THE JOB of the government and the Army Corps of Engineers NOT to lie to people when they say "Everything is in good order.
"It's called Society, and it only works on that basis of trust, otherwise we'd still be individually foraging for nuts, berries, and small game.
When that trust is breached there are consequences.We can each have different limits of personal responsibility, but the one you advocate feels a little bit over the line, especially for such an undereducated populace like that in New Orleans.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170426</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170408</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258728900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You mean that levee that had never been tested in a hurricane and was well known for years (I saw a documentary on this a year or less before Katrina) would probably fail if got hit by a large enough hurricane? Admittedly it probably should have taken a larger hurricane but what if Katrina had still ben a cat 5 when it hit?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You mean that levee that had never been tested in a hurricane and was well known for years ( I saw a documentary on this a year or less before Katrina ) would probably fail if got hit by a large enough hurricane ?
Admittedly it probably should have taken a larger hurricane but what if Katrina had still ben a cat 5 when it hit ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You mean that levee that had never been tested in a hurricane and was well known for years (I saw a documentary on this a year or less before Katrina) would probably fail if got hit by a large enough hurricane?
Admittedly it probably should have taken a larger hurricane but what if Katrina had still ben a cat 5 when it hit?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171868</id>
	<title>Re:Predictable...</title>
	<author>RiotingPacifist</author>
	<datestamp>1258736280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I mean if you put two big towers in the sky and then your government's foreign policy pisses a lot of people off and somebody flies a plane into those building well it's your own damn fault for electing a government that pisses people off.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I mean if you put two big towers in the sky and then your government 's foreign policy pisses a lot of people off and somebody flies a plane into those building well it 's your own damn fault for electing a government that pisses people off .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I mean if you put two big towers in the sky and then your government's foreign policy pisses a lot of people off and somebody flies a plane into those building well it's your own damn fault for electing a government that pisses people off.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30174504</id>
	<title>Re:Myopia and shortsightedness</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1258745520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Woosh.</p><p>Myopia = shortsightedness = nearsightedness.</p><p>insouciance = lighthearted unconcern, perhaps the most damning word used. In short, they didn't give a tinker's dam.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Woosh.Myopia = shortsightedness = nearsightedness.insouciance = lighthearted unconcern , perhaps the most damning word used .
In short , they did n't give a tinker 's dam .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Woosh.Myopia = shortsightedness = nearsightedness.insouciance = lighthearted unconcern, perhaps the most damning word used.
In short, they didn't give a tinker's dam.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170372</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30215758</id>
	<title>can never go home again</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259086500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well thank heavens we got THAT out of the way.  Everything will be alright now that we know who's to BLAME.  Maybe if we'd spent whatever it cost to come to this decision to help people out who were affected...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well thank heavens we got THAT out of the way .
Everything will be alright now that we know who 's to BLAME .
Maybe if we 'd spent whatever it cost to come to this decision to help people out who were affected.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well thank heavens we got THAT out of the way.
Everything will be alright now that we know who's to BLAME.
Maybe if we'd spent whatever it cost to come to this decision to help people out who were affected...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171648</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>nametaken</author>
	<datestamp>1258735200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As much as I'd like to agree, my guess is most people would simply assume that the levee would do the job.</p><p>Those who did question it probably couldn't afford to move on a hunch.  We're not talking about wealthy areas here.</p><p>Even worse, any plea to local government was probably deferred in favor of other issues considered more pressing to a depressed area.</p><p>Just guessin'.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As much as I 'd like to agree , my guess is most people would simply assume that the levee would do the job.Those who did question it probably could n't afford to move on a hunch .
We 're not talking about wealthy areas here.Even worse , any plea to local government was probably deferred in favor of other issues considered more pressing to a depressed area.Just guessin' .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As much as I'd like to agree, my guess is most people would simply assume that the levee would do the job.Those who did question it probably couldn't afford to move on a hunch.
We're not talking about wealthy areas here.Even worse, any plea to local government was probably deferred in favor of other issues considered more pressing to a depressed area.Just guessin'.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170426</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170902</id>
	<title>Corps admitted some mistakes</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258731660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What we have here is a professional organization said the situation was unsafe and recommended a fix.  The customer did not elect to implement the fix.  Then when things went wrong the customer is trying to blame that organization for not having recommended something else.</p><p>Its total crap.</p></div><p>Not total. The Corp's own study said they had problems:</p><p>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/06/02/MNGK5J6CA61.DTL</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What we have here is a professional organization said the situation was unsafe and recommended a fix .
The customer did not elect to implement the fix .
Then when things went wrong the customer is trying to blame that organization for not having recommended something else.Its total crap.Not total .
The Corp 's own study said they had problems : http : //www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi ? f = /c/a/2006/06/02/MNGK5J6CA61.DTL</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What we have here is a professional organization said the situation was unsafe and recommended a fix.
The customer did not elect to implement the fix.
Then when things went wrong the customer is trying to blame that organization for not having recommended something else.Its total crap.Not total.
The Corp's own study said they had problems:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/06/02/MNGK5J6CA61.DTL
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170418</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30182488</id>
	<title>Re:Knowing about a problem and not acting</title>
	<author>falconwolf</author>
	<datestamp>1258746840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I'm just waiting for Miami to get hit by a major hurricane. If you think New Orleans was a mess wait till South Florida gets trashed.</i></p><p>South Florida was hit by a major hurricane.  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane\_Andrew" title="wikipedia.org">Hurricane Andrew</a> [wikipedia.org] was a Cat 5 hurricane that hit south Florida and almost compleatly destroyed <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead\_Air\_Reserve\_Base#Hurricane\_Andrew" title="wikipedia.org">Homestead Air Force Base</a> [wikipedia.org].</p><p>

Falcon</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm just waiting for Miami to get hit by a major hurricane .
If you think New Orleans was a mess wait till South Florida gets trashed.South Florida was hit by a major hurricane .
Hurricane Andrew [ wikipedia.org ] was a Cat 5 hurricane that hit south Florida and almost compleatly destroyed Homestead Air Force Base [ wikipedia.org ] .
Falcon</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm just waiting for Miami to get hit by a major hurricane.
If you think New Orleans was a mess wait till South Florida gets trashed.South Florida was hit by a major hurricane.
Hurricane Andrew [wikipedia.org] was a Cat 5 hurricane that hit south Florida and almost compleatly destroyed Homestead Air Force Base [wikipedia.org].
Falcon</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171190</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170300</id>
	<title>fixing the barn ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258728120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>after the cows got killed by wolves.</p><p>Sounds like the farmer's fault, not the barn makers.<br>It's the people of New Orleans fault, not the President's, or Governor's or Army's fault.</p><p>People need to look in the mirror more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>after the cows got killed by wolves.Sounds like the farmer 's fault , not the barn makers.It 's the people of New Orleans fault , not the President 's , or Governor 's or Army 's fault.People need to look in the mirror more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>after the cows got killed by wolves.Sounds like the farmer's fault, not the barn makers.It's the people of New Orleans fault, not the President's, or Governor's or Army's fault.People need to look in the mirror more.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30176452</id>
	<title>Re:So the taxpayers...</title>
	<author>kingazdak</author>
	<datestamp>1258708920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>rather than fighting a losing battle against a force of nature we can only hold back for so long</p></div><p>You're not a big fan of medical care either then, I take it.</p><p>
&nbsp; </p><p><div class="quote"><p> giving money to people who already received plenty of tax money and charity?</p></div><p>From The Katrina Recovery Index published by the Institute of Southern Studies:<br>+ 100,000 displaced persons from New Orleans are now living in Houston, Texas.<br>+ The percentage of households with children in New Orleans has fallen from 30 percent to 20 percent.<br>+ Only 752 federal housing vouchers have been issued in New Orleans; since the waiting list for vouchers was established, 16 people on it have died.<br>+ Rents in New Orleans are up 40 percent since Katrina.<br>+ Demand for emergency food relief at New Orleans-area food pantries is up 35 percent.<br>+ 43 percent of the city&rsquo;s medical facilities have not reopened since Katrina.<br>+ Two-thirds of the city&rsquo;s population reports chronic health problems, up 45 percent since 2006.<br>+ The suicide rate in New Orleans is up 200 percent since Katrina, while only one local hospital provides in-patient mental health care.<br>+ Louisiana ranks 50th among US states for overall health care quality.</p><p>There's this awesome thing to get facts called google- you should try it out some time.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>rather than fighting a losing battle against a force of nature we can only hold back for so longYou 're not a big fan of medical care either then , I take it .
  giving money to people who already received plenty of tax money and charity ? From The Katrina Recovery Index published by the Institute of Southern Studies : + 100,000 displaced persons from New Orleans are now living in Houston , Texas. + The percentage of households with children in New Orleans has fallen from 30 percent to 20 percent. + Only 752 federal housing vouchers have been issued in New Orleans ; since the waiting list for vouchers was established , 16 people on it have died. + Rents in New Orleans are up 40 percent since Katrina. + Demand for emergency food relief at New Orleans-area food pantries is up 35 percent. + 43 percent of the city    s medical facilities have not reopened since Katrina. + Two-thirds of the city    s population reports chronic health problems , up 45 percent since 2006. + The suicide rate in New Orleans is up 200 percent since Katrina , while only one local hospital provides in-patient mental health care. + Louisiana ranks 50th among US states for overall health care quality.There 's this awesome thing to get facts called google- you should try it out some time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>rather than fighting a losing battle against a force of nature we can only hold back for so longYou're not a big fan of medical care either then, I take it.
   giving money to people who already received plenty of tax money and charity?From The Katrina Recovery Index published by the Institute of Southern Studies:+ 100,000 displaced persons from New Orleans are now living in Houston, Texas.+ The percentage of households with children in New Orleans has fallen from 30 percent to 20 percent.+ Only 752 federal housing vouchers have been issued in New Orleans; since the waiting list for vouchers was established, 16 people on it have died.+ Rents in New Orleans are up 40 percent since Katrina.+ Demand for emergency food relief at New Orleans-area food pantries is up 35 percent.+ 43 percent of the city’s medical facilities have not reopened since Katrina.+ Two-thirds of the city’s population reports chronic health problems, up 45 percent since 2006.+ The suicide rate in New Orleans is up 200 percent since Katrina, while only one local hospital provides in-patient mental health care.+ Louisiana ranks 50th among US states for overall health care quality.There's this awesome thing to get facts called google- you should try it out some time.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170620</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171260</id>
	<title>The reason the levees failed -- Bush</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258733460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>MRGO is only one reason the city flooded. MRGO should have never been built in the first place.

BUT

the reason New Orleans failed is because the levees were not maintained. Levees age, they erode, the sink under their own weight. They are made of dirt and are not monoliths. The sad truth is that Bush destroyed New Orleans. In a nutshell, he stole the money slated to fix the levees in three years' budgets, in spite of warnings of the catastrophe if the levees gave way. There was (still is) a program that was created to rebuilds the levees (SELA), and Bush defunded it. Work on the levees slowed or stopped, and the weakened levees broke.

FACTS::

February 2001
Bush's first budget proposed more than half a billion dollars worth of cuts to the Army Corps of Engineers for the 2002 fiscal year. Bush proposed half of what his own officials said was necessary for the critical Southeast Louisiana Flood Control Project (SELA)--a project started after a 1995 rainstorm flooded 25,000 homes and caused a half billion dollars in damage.

Bush did this to offset the tax break he gave to the top 1\% of rich Americans. The first major economic initiative pursued by the president was a massive tax cut for the rich, enacted in June of 2001. Bush signed his massive $1.3 trillion income tax cut into law-a tax cut that severely depleted the government of revenues it needed to address critical priorities.

February 2002
Bush provided just $5 million for maintaining and upgrading critical hurricane protection levees in New Orleans--one fifth of what government experts and Republican elected officials in Louisiana told the administration was needed. Bush knew SELA needed $80 million to keep working, but the he only proposed providing a quarter of that.

February 2004
The SELA project sought $100 million to repair the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain levees, but Bush offered only $16.5 million. The Army Corps of Engineers asked for $27 million to pay for hurricane protection upgrades around Lake Pontchartrain--but the White House cut that to $3.9 million. Gaps in levees around Lake Pontchartrain &amp; the Industrial Canal, which were supposed to be filled by 2004, were not filled because of budget shortfalls. Repair work on the levees, including the ones that failed, was stopped due to lack of funds.</htmltext>
<tokenext>MRGO is only one reason the city flooded .
MRGO should have never been built in the first place .
BUT the reason New Orleans failed is because the levees were not maintained .
Levees age , they erode , the sink under their own weight .
They are made of dirt and are not monoliths .
The sad truth is that Bush destroyed New Orleans .
In a nutshell , he stole the money slated to fix the levees in three years ' budgets , in spite of warnings of the catastrophe if the levees gave way .
There was ( still is ) a program that was created to rebuilds the levees ( SELA ) , and Bush defunded it .
Work on the levees slowed or stopped , and the weakened levees broke .
FACTS : : February 2001 Bush 's first budget proposed more than half a billion dollars worth of cuts to the Army Corps of Engineers for the 2002 fiscal year .
Bush proposed half of what his own officials said was necessary for the critical Southeast Louisiana Flood Control Project ( SELA ) --a project started after a 1995 rainstorm flooded 25,000 homes and caused a half billion dollars in damage .
Bush did this to offset the tax break he gave to the top 1 \ % of rich Americans .
The first major economic initiative pursued by the president was a massive tax cut for the rich , enacted in June of 2001 .
Bush signed his massive $ 1.3 trillion income tax cut into law-a tax cut that severely depleted the government of revenues it needed to address critical priorities .
February 2002 Bush provided just $ 5 million for maintaining and upgrading critical hurricane protection levees in New Orleans--one fifth of what government experts and Republican elected officials in Louisiana told the administration was needed .
Bush knew SELA needed $ 80 million to keep working , but the he only proposed providing a quarter of that .
February 2004 The SELA project sought $ 100 million to repair the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain levees , but Bush offered only $ 16.5 million .
The Army Corps of Engineers asked for $ 27 million to pay for hurricane protection upgrades around Lake Pontchartrain--but the White House cut that to $ 3.9 million .
Gaps in levees around Lake Pontchartrain &amp; the Industrial Canal , which were supposed to be filled by 2004 , were not filled because of budget shortfalls .
Repair work on the levees , including the ones that failed , was stopped due to lack of funds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>MRGO is only one reason the city flooded.
MRGO should have never been built in the first place.
BUT

the reason New Orleans failed is because the levees were not maintained.
Levees age, they erode, the sink under their own weight.
They are made of dirt and are not monoliths.
The sad truth is that Bush destroyed New Orleans.
In a nutshell, he stole the money slated to fix the levees in three years' budgets, in spite of warnings of the catastrophe if the levees gave way.
There was (still is) a program that was created to rebuilds the levees (SELA), and Bush defunded it.
Work on the levees slowed or stopped, and the weakened levees broke.
FACTS::

February 2001
Bush's first budget proposed more than half a billion dollars worth of cuts to the Army Corps of Engineers for the 2002 fiscal year.
Bush proposed half of what his own officials said was necessary for the critical Southeast Louisiana Flood Control Project (SELA)--a project started after a 1995 rainstorm flooded 25,000 homes and caused a half billion dollars in damage.
Bush did this to offset the tax break he gave to the top 1\% of rich Americans.
The first major economic initiative pursued by the president was a massive tax cut for the rich, enacted in June of 2001.
Bush signed his massive $1.3 trillion income tax cut into law-a tax cut that severely depleted the government of revenues it needed to address critical priorities.
February 2002
Bush provided just $5 million for maintaining and upgrading critical hurricane protection levees in New Orleans--one fifth of what government experts and Republican elected officials in Louisiana told the administration was needed.
Bush knew SELA needed $80 million to keep working, but the he only proposed providing a quarter of that.
February 2004
The SELA project sought $100 million to repair the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain levees, but Bush offered only $16.5 million.
The Army Corps of Engineers asked for $27 million to pay for hurricane protection upgrades around Lake Pontchartrain--but the White House cut that to $3.9 million.
Gaps in levees around Lake Pontchartrain &amp; the Industrial Canal, which were supposed to be filled by 2004, were not filled because of budget shortfalls.
Repair work on the levees, including the ones that failed, was stopped due to lack of funds.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171478</id>
	<title>Re:Knowing about a problem and not acting</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258734480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> Why not? I have car insurance, home insurance, fire insurance, flood insurance, liability insurance, medical insurance as well as plans to deal with most of the reasonably foreseeable events connected with bad stuff that could happen in my life.</p> </div><p>I'm sure most of the citizens of New Orleans are quite capable of affording all of those various forms of insurance.  Also, you say the following: </p><p><div class="quote"><p> The levees in question were known to be inadequate. .<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.</p></div><p>Who knew that?  Was the information dispersed to every single person living in New Orleans? I'm guessing it wasn't; so I'm sure more than a few people did <i> not </i> know that the levees were incapable of protecting them.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not ?
I have car insurance , home insurance , fire insurance , flood insurance , liability insurance , medical insurance as well as plans to deal with most of the reasonably foreseeable events connected with bad stuff that could happen in my life .
I 'm sure most of the citizens of New Orleans are quite capable of affording all of those various forms of insurance .
Also , you say the following : The levees in question were known to be inadequate .
. .Who knew that ?
Was the information dispersed to every single person living in New Orleans ?
I 'm guessing it was n't ; so I 'm sure more than a few people did not know that the levees were incapable of protecting them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Why not?
I have car insurance, home insurance, fire insurance, flood insurance, liability insurance, medical insurance as well as plans to deal with most of the reasonably foreseeable events connected with bad stuff that could happen in my life.
I'm sure most of the citizens of New Orleans are quite capable of affording all of those various forms of insurance.
Also, you say the following:  The levees in question were known to be inadequate.
. .Who knew that?
Was the information dispersed to every single person living in New Orleans?
I'm guessing it wasn't; so I'm sure more than a few people did  not  know that the levees were incapable of protecting them.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171190</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171654</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258735260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>So you have a city below sea level protected by a barrier which cannot possibly handle an event that you know with certainty will one day happen. Additionally, all those years that passed without it happening were ample opportunity to reinforce the levee and otherwise to prepare for that eventuality. This did not happen</i></p><p>And that's exactly why the Corps of Engineers who was responsible for maintaining those levees is responsible. If the inevitable disaster was so obvious, why weren't they doing anything about it?  Most citizens aren't engineers and aren't equipped to second guess the Corps.  The blame lies squarely with the professionals who failed to notice, failed to warn, and failed to do anything about the problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So you have a city below sea level protected by a barrier which can not possibly handle an event that you know with certainty will one day happen .
Additionally , all those years that passed without it happening were ample opportunity to reinforce the levee and otherwise to prepare for that eventuality .
This did not happenAnd that 's exactly why the Corps of Engineers who was responsible for maintaining those levees is responsible .
If the inevitable disaster was so obvious , why were n't they doing anything about it ?
Most citizens are n't engineers and are n't equipped to second guess the Corps .
The blame lies squarely with the professionals who failed to notice , failed to warn , and failed to do anything about the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you have a city below sea level protected by a barrier which cannot possibly handle an event that you know with certainty will one day happen.
Additionally, all those years that passed without it happening were ample opportunity to reinforce the levee and otherwise to prepare for that eventuality.
This did not happenAnd that's exactly why the Corps of Engineers who was responsible for maintaining those levees is responsible.
If the inevitable disaster was so obvious, why weren't they doing anything about it?
Most citizens aren't engineers and aren't equipped to second guess the Corps.
The blame lies squarely with the professionals who failed to notice, failed to warn, and failed to do anything about the problem.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170426</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30172360</id>
	<title>Liabal in name only</title>
	<author>lordmetroid</author>
	<datestamp>1258738080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>While they are said to be liable, who will pay the restitution? Not the engineers that is for sure, they work for the government and has sovereign immunity which means you never have to say you are sorry. You tax paying people will be coerced to pay this...</htmltext>
<tokenext>While they are said to be liable , who will pay the restitution ?
Not the engineers that is for sure , they work for the government and has sovereign immunity which means you never have to say you are sorry .
You tax paying people will be coerced to pay this.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While they are said to be liable, who will pay the restitution?
Not the engineers that is for sure, they work for the government and has sovereign immunity which means you never have to say you are sorry.
You tax paying people will be coerced to pay this...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30175118</id>
	<title>In times like these...</title>
	<author>tool462</author>
	<datestamp>1258747500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>we need to turn to the wisdom of Milli Vanilli.</p><p>Blame it on the rain.  It was falling.  Falling.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>we need to turn to the wisdom of Milli Vanilli.Blame it on the rain .
It was falling .
Falling .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>we need to turn to the wisdom of Milli Vanilli.Blame it on the rain.
It was falling.
Falling.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170542</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>fyrewulff</author>
	<datestamp>1258729620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Levees only buy you time, they are not dams and do not prevent floods completely, they just buy you time to get out of the area.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Levees only buy you time , they are not dams and do not prevent floods completely , they just buy you time to get out of the area .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Levees only buy you time, they are not dams and do not prevent floods completely, they just buy you time to get out of the area.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171210</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258733220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>These very factors are why the smart and able people evacuated, like my family. AND these reasons are why home owner's insurance policies are now being written with much more stringent base flood elevation requirements. The number of homes in the worst hit areas are being raise 4 to 12 feet is impressive, now some of these folks will actually have a chance of not having their homes destroyed if another levee failure happens.</p><p>The lessons learned in New Orleans after Katrina are the lessons that folks who have lived along the coast of Florida and elsewhere have known for a while. Hurricanes come and they blow shit over and make water rise up to crazy heights. So if you want your stuff to make it through you need to build your house up about the storm surge height and add some extra strapping to your roof and walls to keep them from blowing away.</p><p>Having grown up in Florida, lived in New Orleans for 3 years up to Katrina, and now being back in New Orleans again I have only modest levels of sympathy for the folks who lost everything, seeing as I lost a good deal myself. But I was properly insured, evacuated as advised and knew what to expect from 21 years of hurricanes in Florida. The anger needs to be directed at the incompetent local government that didn't take care of its own. Nagin waited too long to order the evacuation and, instead of using the city's fleets of public and school buses to get people out he had everyone go to the Superdome and people died en masse because of his and other local politician's incompetence. And yet he got re-elected because he and the idiot populi blamed the federal government rather than pointing the finger where it rightfully belonged.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>These very factors are why the smart and able people evacuated , like my family .
AND these reasons are why home owner 's insurance policies are now being written with much more stringent base flood elevation requirements .
The number of homes in the worst hit areas are being raise 4 to 12 feet is impressive , now some of these folks will actually have a chance of not having their homes destroyed if another levee failure happens.The lessons learned in New Orleans after Katrina are the lessons that folks who have lived along the coast of Florida and elsewhere have known for a while .
Hurricanes come and they blow shit over and make water rise up to crazy heights .
So if you want your stuff to make it through you need to build your house up about the storm surge height and add some extra strapping to your roof and walls to keep them from blowing away.Having grown up in Florida , lived in New Orleans for 3 years up to Katrina , and now being back in New Orleans again I have only modest levels of sympathy for the folks who lost everything , seeing as I lost a good deal myself .
But I was properly insured , evacuated as advised and knew what to expect from 21 years of hurricanes in Florida .
The anger needs to be directed at the incompetent local government that did n't take care of its own .
Nagin waited too long to order the evacuation and , instead of using the city 's fleets of public and school buses to get people out he had everyone go to the Superdome and people died en masse because of his and other local politician 's incompetence .
And yet he got re-elected because he and the idiot populi blamed the federal government rather than pointing the finger where it rightfully belonged .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These very factors are why the smart and able people evacuated, like my family.
AND these reasons are why home owner's insurance policies are now being written with much more stringent base flood elevation requirements.
The number of homes in the worst hit areas are being raise 4 to 12 feet is impressive, now some of these folks will actually have a chance of not having their homes destroyed if another levee failure happens.The lessons learned in New Orleans after Katrina are the lessons that folks who have lived along the coast of Florida and elsewhere have known for a while.
Hurricanes come and they blow shit over and make water rise up to crazy heights.
So if you want your stuff to make it through you need to build your house up about the storm surge height and add some extra strapping to your roof and walls to keep them from blowing away.Having grown up in Florida, lived in New Orleans for 3 years up to Katrina, and now being back in New Orleans again I have only modest levels of sympathy for the folks who lost everything, seeing as I lost a good deal myself.
But I was properly insured, evacuated as advised and knew what to expect from 21 years of hurricanes in Florida.
The anger needs to be directed at the incompetent local government that didn't take care of its own.
Nagin waited too long to order the evacuation and, instead of using the city's fleets of public and school buses to get people out he had everyone go to the Superdome and people died en masse because of his and other local politician's incompetence.
And yet he got re-elected because he and the idiot populi blamed the federal government rather than pointing the finger where it rightfully belonged.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170642</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171256</id>
	<title>snigger</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258733460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He said "insouciance".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He said " insouciance " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He said "insouciance".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170122</id>
	<title>What?</title>
	<author>wpiman</author>
	<datestamp>1258726500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The people who knowingly decided to live below sea level bear no responsibility?
<p>Seriously; this look to government to protect one's self has gone too far.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The people who knowingly decided to live below sea level bear no responsibility ?
Seriously ; this look to government to protect one 's self has gone too far .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The people who knowingly decided to live below sea level bear no responsibility?
Seriously; this look to government to protect one's self has gone too far.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30180370</id>
	<title>Re:Predictable...</title>
	<author>bill\_mcgonigle</author>
	<datestamp>1258724700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The folly isn't so much in building it there as in rebuilding it there.</p><p>My letters to legislators suggesting they create parks in NOLA and build some bullet trains to a new inland city went unanswered.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The folly is n't so much in building it there as in rebuilding it there.My letters to legislators suggesting they create parks in NOLA and build some bullet trains to a new inland city went unanswered .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The folly isn't so much in building it there as in rebuilding it there.My letters to legislators suggesting they create parks in NOLA and build some bullet trains to a new inland city went unanswered.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30175442</id>
	<title>Re:so federal funding got cut.....</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1258748580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The Corps of Engineers built the levees, and IINM the locals aren't allowed to do oanything to them by federal decree.</p><p>If I am mistaken please mod me down and correct me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The Corps of Engineers built the levees , and IINM the locals are n't allowed to do oanything to them by federal decree.If I am mistaken please mod me down and correct me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Corps of Engineers built the levees, and IINM the locals aren't allowed to do oanything to them by federal decree.If I am mistaken please mod me down and correct me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170420</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30172156</id>
	<title>Re:This is total BS</title>
	<author>gedrin</author>
	<datestamp>1258737480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think you misunderstand.<br> <br>Rule 1:  New Orleans and LA are not responsible.<br>Rule 2:  Other people are responsible.<br> <br>Those are the rules of argument.  It is possible that either A: The Corps of Engineers or B: God (eg Act of God) is responsible.  As, thusfar, God has refused to appear in court or pay judgements against Him, it is much more productive to assign culpability to The Corps of Engineers.  Arguments that the fault lies on the people that stood to loose the most and would be directly impacted by the failures of the levies violates Rule 1, so they cannot be used.  Other people, Bush, Haliburton Weather Control Inc., and the Illuminati will be sued in time.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think you misunderstand .
Rule 1 : New Orleans and LA are not responsible.Rule 2 : Other people are responsible .
Those are the rules of argument .
It is possible that either A : The Corps of Engineers or B : God ( eg Act of God ) is responsible .
As , thusfar , God has refused to appear in court or pay judgements against Him , it is much more productive to assign culpability to The Corps of Engineers .
Arguments that the fault lies on the people that stood to loose the most and would be directly impacted by the failures of the levies violates Rule 1 , so they can not be used .
Other people , Bush , Haliburton Weather Control Inc. , and the Illuminati will be sued in time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think you misunderstand.
Rule 1:  New Orleans and LA are not responsible.Rule 2:  Other people are responsible.
Those are the rules of argument.
It is possible that either A: The Corps of Engineers or B: God (eg Act of God) is responsible.
As, thusfar, God has refused to appear in court or pay judgements against Him, it is much more productive to assign culpability to The Corps of Engineers.
Arguments that the fault lies on the people that stood to loose the most and would be directly impacted by the failures of the levies violates Rule 1, so they cannot be used.
Other people, Bush, Haliburton Weather Control Inc., and the Illuminati will be sued in time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170418</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30177608</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>causality</author>
	<datestamp>1258712760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You wrote:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>So you have a city below sea level protected by a barrier which cannot possibly handle an event that you know with certainty will one day happen. Additionally, all those years that passed without it happening were ample opportunity to reinforce the levee and otherwise to prepare for that eventuality.</p></div><p>The judge agrees with you:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>'It is the court's opinion that the negligence of the corps, in this instance by failing to maintain the MR-GO properly, was not policy, but insouciance, myopia, and shortsightedness,'</p></div><p>The thing is, the judge lives, along with most of us, in a world where people and organizations have some minimal obligation to other people. Thus, when there is a government organization whose responsibility it is to build levees that will protect a city full or people, and when this organization fails to protect against something that is, as both you and the judge point out, perfectly predictable, then we say this organization has been negligent, and we hold it responsible. We call this state of affairs civilization. Come join us!</p></div><p>That's cute of you to talk about what world most people live in.  There's an assumption behind that, of course.  Not surprisingly it's an unstated assumption, so I'll state it for you.  The assumption is that government's responsibility can exist, or the personal responsibility of the people who chose to live in New Orleans can exist, but not both.
<br> <br>
I reject this view.  I agree that the government should be held liable.  That's one issue.  I also believe that the people who chose to live in New Orleans were taking a risk, should have known it, and should accept that this is the choice they made.  That's another, separate issue.  They are not mutually exclusive.
<br> <br>
I agree that the government has an obligation to maintain basic infrastructure such as those levees.  They should be held fully responsible for any negligence they displayed.  But should the government fail in this way, for any reason, then if I live in that area I have an obligation to myself and my family to get out of harm's way.  That's because it is a disaster waiting to happen.  If I do otherwise then I am showing the exact same negligence that the government has shown, just on a smaller scale.  Once out of harm's way, that'd be a perfect time to petition the government, talk to the media about it, or otherwise to try to change the situation.
<br> <br>
In other words, my responsibility to myself and my family is not nullified just because the government fails to meet its own responsibility.  That point is ignored when you want to play the blame game and say "hah, it's 100\% the fault of government, therefore we who could have known better are totally absolved of all blame!"  I say to hell with blame and with all of these petty games centered around it.  It's just distracts from the process of actually understanding how this disaster could have been sidestepped.
<br> <br>
For that reason, blame and how to avoid it does not interest me.  What does interest me is effective action based on correctly recognizing a problem and proactively dealing with it.  I don't care if it's top-down (government reinforces levee) or bottom-up (people get out of inevitable disaster); either way, that's what needs to happen.  Your patronizing tone indicates that this point was lost on you.
<br> <br>
Just an observation, anytime you mention personal responsibility and why it's important, people really don't like to hear it.  However, they won't just tell you "I reject the notion of personal responsibility", nor will they simply say "I don't like the topic of personal responsibility."  Instead, they might accuse you of "blaming the victim", which is easy to do, seldom if ever requires any proof or reasoning, and often scores sympathy points with any audience.  Or they might find another entity that was also negligent, such as government, and imply that personal responsibility doesn't exist merely because someone else also screwed up.  If you observe people, you will see that this is a recurring pattern.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You wrote : So you have a city below sea level protected by a barrier which can not possibly handle an event that you know with certainty will one day happen .
Additionally , all those years that passed without it happening were ample opportunity to reinforce the levee and otherwise to prepare for that eventuality.The judge agrees with you : 'It is the court 's opinion that the negligence of the corps , in this instance by failing to maintain the MR-GO properly , was not policy , but insouciance , myopia , and shortsightedness,'The thing is , the judge lives , along with most of us , in a world where people and organizations have some minimal obligation to other people .
Thus , when there is a government organization whose responsibility it is to build levees that will protect a city full or people , and when this organization fails to protect against something that is , as both you and the judge point out , perfectly predictable , then we say this organization has been negligent , and we hold it responsible .
We call this state of affairs civilization .
Come join us ! That 's cute of you to talk about what world most people live in .
There 's an assumption behind that , of course .
Not surprisingly it 's an unstated assumption , so I 'll state it for you .
The assumption is that government 's responsibility can exist , or the personal responsibility of the people who chose to live in New Orleans can exist , but not both .
I reject this view .
I agree that the government should be held liable .
That 's one issue .
I also believe that the people who chose to live in New Orleans were taking a risk , should have known it , and should accept that this is the choice they made .
That 's another , separate issue .
They are not mutually exclusive .
I agree that the government has an obligation to maintain basic infrastructure such as those levees .
They should be held fully responsible for any negligence they displayed .
But should the government fail in this way , for any reason , then if I live in that area I have an obligation to myself and my family to get out of harm 's way .
That 's because it is a disaster waiting to happen .
If I do otherwise then I am showing the exact same negligence that the government has shown , just on a smaller scale .
Once out of harm 's way , that 'd be a perfect time to petition the government , talk to the media about it , or otherwise to try to change the situation .
In other words , my responsibility to myself and my family is not nullified just because the government fails to meet its own responsibility .
That point is ignored when you want to play the blame game and say " hah , it 's 100 \ % the fault of government , therefore we who could have known better are totally absolved of all blame !
" I say to hell with blame and with all of these petty games centered around it .
It 's just distracts from the process of actually understanding how this disaster could have been sidestepped .
For that reason , blame and how to avoid it does not interest me .
What does interest me is effective action based on correctly recognizing a problem and proactively dealing with it .
I do n't care if it 's top-down ( government reinforces levee ) or bottom-up ( people get out of inevitable disaster ) ; either way , that 's what needs to happen .
Your patronizing tone indicates that this point was lost on you .
Just an observation , anytime you mention personal responsibility and why it 's important , people really do n't like to hear it .
However , they wo n't just tell you " I reject the notion of personal responsibility " , nor will they simply say " I do n't like the topic of personal responsibility .
" Instead , they might accuse you of " blaming the victim " , which is easy to do , seldom if ever requires any proof or reasoning , and often scores sympathy points with any audience .
Or they might find another entity that was also negligent , such as government , and imply that personal responsibility does n't exist merely because someone else also screwed up .
If you observe people , you will see that this is a recurring pattern .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You wrote:So you have a city below sea level protected by a barrier which cannot possibly handle an event that you know with certainty will one day happen.
Additionally, all those years that passed without it happening were ample opportunity to reinforce the levee and otherwise to prepare for that eventuality.The judge agrees with you:'It is the court's opinion that the negligence of the corps, in this instance by failing to maintain the MR-GO properly, was not policy, but insouciance, myopia, and shortsightedness,'The thing is, the judge lives, along with most of us, in a world where people and organizations have some minimal obligation to other people.
Thus, when there is a government organization whose responsibility it is to build levees that will protect a city full or people, and when this organization fails to protect against something that is, as both you and the judge point out, perfectly predictable, then we say this organization has been negligent, and we hold it responsible.
We call this state of affairs civilization.
Come join us!That's cute of you to talk about what world most people live in.
There's an assumption behind that, of course.
Not surprisingly it's an unstated assumption, so I'll state it for you.
The assumption is that government's responsibility can exist, or the personal responsibility of the people who chose to live in New Orleans can exist, but not both.
I reject this view.
I agree that the government should be held liable.
That's one issue.
I also believe that the people who chose to live in New Orleans were taking a risk, should have known it, and should accept that this is the choice they made.
That's another, separate issue.
They are not mutually exclusive.
I agree that the government has an obligation to maintain basic infrastructure such as those levees.
They should be held fully responsible for any negligence they displayed.
But should the government fail in this way, for any reason, then if I live in that area I have an obligation to myself and my family to get out of harm's way.
That's because it is a disaster waiting to happen.
If I do otherwise then I am showing the exact same negligence that the government has shown, just on a smaller scale.
Once out of harm's way, that'd be a perfect time to petition the government, talk to the media about it, or otherwise to try to change the situation.
In other words, my responsibility to myself and my family is not nullified just because the government fails to meet its own responsibility.
That point is ignored when you want to play the blame game and say "hah, it's 100\% the fault of government, therefore we who could have known better are totally absolved of all blame!
"  I say to hell with blame and with all of these petty games centered around it.
It's just distracts from the process of actually understanding how this disaster could have been sidestepped.
For that reason, blame and how to avoid it does not interest me.
What does interest me is effective action based on correctly recognizing a problem and proactively dealing with it.
I don't care if it's top-down (government reinforces levee) or bottom-up (people get out of inevitable disaster); either way, that's what needs to happen.
Your patronizing tone indicates that this point was lost on you.
Just an observation, anytime you mention personal responsibility and why it's important, people really don't like to hear it.
However, they won't just tell you "I reject the notion of personal responsibility", nor will they simply say "I don't like the topic of personal responsibility.
"  Instead, they might accuse you of "blaming the victim", which is easy to do, seldom if ever requires any proof or reasoning, and often scores sympathy points with any audience.
Or they might find another entity that was also negligent, such as government, and imply that personal responsibility doesn't exist merely because someone else also screwed up.
If you observe people, you will see that this is a recurring pattern.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171552</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30234466</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Chibi Merrow</author>
	<datestamp>1259265900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I find this line of reasoning pretty abhorrent. Admittedly I live a long way from the coast, but its not like I make periodic inspections of Mansfield damn or check the undercarriage of the upper deck of the freeway for damage.</p></div></blockquote><p>Then you either didn't read what I said or you didn't understand it. I said WATER WAS VISIBLY SEEPING THROUGH THE LEVEE. As in, when I went to visit my Great Grandmother TWENTY YEARS AGO, who's house was WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE of the levee, you could SEE WATER COMING THROUGH IT. And that was twenty years ago. And in those twenty years, the state of Louisiana as well as the City of New Orleans has done shit-all to address the levees.</p><p>The Army Corps. of Engineers has been begging literally for decades for the levees to be fixed, but no one wanted to spend the money on it. They've known at least since Betsy hit. And that's the funny thing: THIS HAS ALL HAPPENED BEFORE! Go read about Hurricane Betsy. New Orleans went through the same crap in 1965 and they STILL didn't do anything about it!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I find this line of reasoning pretty abhorrent .
Admittedly I live a long way from the coast , but its not like I make periodic inspections of Mansfield damn or check the undercarriage of the upper deck of the freeway for damage.Then you either did n't read what I said or you did n't understand it .
I said WATER WAS VISIBLY SEEPING THROUGH THE LEVEE .
As in , when I went to visit my Great Grandmother TWENTY YEARS AGO , who 's house was WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE of the levee , you could SEE WATER COMING THROUGH IT .
And that was twenty years ago .
And in those twenty years , the state of Louisiana as well as the City of New Orleans has done shit-all to address the levees.The Army Corps .
of Engineers has been begging literally for decades for the levees to be fixed , but no one wanted to spend the money on it .
They 've known at least since Betsy hit .
And that 's the funny thing : THIS HAS ALL HAPPENED BEFORE !
Go read about Hurricane Betsy .
New Orleans went through the same crap in 1965 and they STILL did n't do anything about it !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I find this line of reasoning pretty abhorrent.
Admittedly I live a long way from the coast, but its not like I make periodic inspections of Mansfield damn or check the undercarriage of the upper deck of the freeway for damage.Then you either didn't read what I said or you didn't understand it.
I said WATER WAS VISIBLY SEEPING THROUGH THE LEVEE.
As in, when I went to visit my Great Grandmother TWENTY YEARS AGO, who's house was WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE of the levee, you could SEE WATER COMING THROUGH IT.
And that was twenty years ago.
And in those twenty years, the state of Louisiana as well as the City of New Orleans has done shit-all to address the levees.The Army Corps.
of Engineers has been begging literally for decades for the levees to be fixed, but no one wanted to spend the money on it.
They've known at least since Betsy hit.
And that's the funny thing: THIS HAS ALL HAPPENED BEFORE!
Go read about Hurricane Betsy.
New Orleans went through the same crap in 1965 and they STILL didn't do anything about it!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171504</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30174730</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>ThatsNotPudding</author>
	<datestamp>1258746240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I could see blaming the French for setting up a fort / trading post in a vulnerable but lucrative location, but blaming fifth or sixth generation native-borns (who weren't exactly rolling in dough) for not moving away seems a bit Darwinian.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I could see blaming the French for setting up a fort / trading post in a vulnerable but lucrative location , but blaming fifth or sixth generation native-borns ( who were n't exactly rolling in dough ) for not moving away seems a bit Darwinian .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I could see blaming the French for setting up a fort / trading post in a vulnerable but lucrative location, but blaming fifth or sixth generation native-borns (who weren't exactly rolling in dough) for not moving away seems a bit Darwinian.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170426</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170966</id>
	<title>60\% of the population of the Netherlands live belo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258731960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>60\% of the population of the Netherlands live below sea level. Are they all stupid too?</p><p>
&nbsp; YES YES YES YES YES YES</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>60 \ % of the population of the Netherlands live below sea level .
Are they all stupid too ?
  YES YES YES YES YES YES</tokentext>
<sentencetext>60\% of the population of the Netherlands live below sea level.
Are they all stupid too?
  YES YES YES YES YES YES</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30172674</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Coren22</author>
	<datestamp>1258739160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The army corps warned the state and local government in the 1960s that the levees were inadequate.  The state and local governments ignored them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The army corps warned the state and local government in the 1960s that the levees were inadequate .
The state and local governments ignored them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The army corps warned the state and local government in the 1960s that the levees were inadequate.
The state and local governments ignored them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171654</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170418</id>
	<title>This is total BS</title>
	<author>DarkOx</author>
	<datestamp>1258728960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The same Army Core of Engineers recommended for years the levies be reinforced.  There is no reason to think doing so would not have avoided the flooding problems.  The people there failed to make the investment.  Its the local government there that is responsible and nobody else.</p><p>What we have here is a professional organization said the situation was unsafe and recommended a fix.  The customer did not elect to implement the fix.  Then when things went wrong the customer is trying to blame that organization for not having recommended something else.</p><p>Its total crap.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The same Army Core of Engineers recommended for years the levies be reinforced .
There is no reason to think doing so would not have avoided the flooding problems .
The people there failed to make the investment .
Its the local government there that is responsible and nobody else.What we have here is a professional organization said the situation was unsafe and recommended a fix .
The customer did not elect to implement the fix .
Then when things went wrong the customer is trying to blame that organization for not having recommended something else.Its total crap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The same Army Core of Engineers recommended for years the levies be reinforced.
There is no reason to think doing so would not have avoided the flooding problems.
The people there failed to make the investment.
Its the local government there that is responsible and nobody else.What we have here is a professional organization said the situation was unsafe and recommended a fix.
The customer did not elect to implement the fix.
Then when things went wrong the customer is trying to blame that organization for not having recommended something else.Its total crap.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30175152</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Joce640k</author>
	<datestamp>1258747560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah but who needs personal responsibility in a land full of lawyers?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah but who needs personal responsibility in a land full of lawyers ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah but who needs personal responsibility in a land full of lawyers?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170426</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>fuzzyfuzzyfungus</author>
	<datestamp>1258726860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Appealing to "individual responsibility" is fun and all; but senseless if perspective is not kept.<br> <br>

Living below sea level is stupid. However, living below sea level <i>behind a levee designed specifically to make that area habitable, which has been doing exactly that for years and years now</i> is considerably less stupid.<br> <br>

Does "individual responsibility" require near-Cartesian levels of doubt in every possible piece of infrastructure?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Appealing to " individual responsibility " is fun and all ; but senseless if perspective is not kept .
Living below sea level is stupid .
However , living below sea level behind a levee designed specifically to make that area habitable , which has been doing exactly that for years and years now is considerably less stupid .
Does " individual responsibility " require near-Cartesian levels of doubt in every possible piece of infrastructure ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Appealing to "individual responsibility" is fun and all; but senseless if perspective is not kept.
Living below sea level is stupid.
However, living below sea level behind a levee designed specifically to make that area habitable, which has been doing exactly that for years and years now is considerably less stupid.
Does "individual responsibility" require near-Cartesian levels of doubt in every possible piece of infrastructure?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170122</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30172598</id>
	<title>Re:Predictable...</title>
	<author>pwfffff</author>
	<datestamp>1258738920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>OK, "You should have built that town elsewhere TWO HUNDRED YEARS AGO" is insightful, but the parent is Flamebait? Did someone's sockpuppet accounts get mod points today or is our society really that permeated with stupid? Fucking unbelievable.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>OK , " You should have built that town elsewhere TWO HUNDRED YEARS AGO " is insightful , but the parent is Flamebait ?
Did someone 's sockpuppet accounts get mod points today or is our society really that permeated with stupid ?
Fucking unbelievable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>OK, "You should have built that town elsewhere TWO HUNDRED YEARS AGO" is insightful, but the parent is Flamebait?
Did someone's sockpuppet accounts get mod points today or is our society really that permeated with stupid?
Fucking unbelievable.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171006</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171504</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258734660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I find this line of reasoning pretty abhorrent. Admittedly I live a long way from the coast, but its not like I make periodic inspections of Mansfield damn or check the undercarriage of the upper deck of the freeway for damage.  There are people who are supposed to do that, and there is plenty of blame to go around that things were allowed to fall apart like they did during Katrina, but to blame people for living in the city because they were "stupid" for not taking time out of their jobs and lives to investigate their cities infrastructure is both callous and hypocritical, as I doubt you have done any civic inspection recently (unless that is your job) and every where people can live has natural hazards.  Are people stupid for living on an earthquake fault? What about in tornado ally? Man any one on an island must be a retard by your logic, as now amount of infrastructure spending can save one of those from a mega storm.  Course you better stay south of the heavy snow, have you checked your cities snow plows lately?   etc.</p><p>One day this sort of dickheaded intellectual snobbishness is going to drive all the decent readership from this site.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I find this line of reasoning pretty abhorrent .
Admittedly I live a long way from the coast , but its not like I make periodic inspections of Mansfield damn or check the undercarriage of the upper deck of the freeway for damage .
There are people who are supposed to do that , and there is plenty of blame to go around that things were allowed to fall apart like they did during Katrina , but to blame people for living in the city because they were " stupid " for not taking time out of their jobs and lives to investigate their cities infrastructure is both callous and hypocritical , as I doubt you have done any civic inspection recently ( unless that is your job ) and every where people can live has natural hazards .
Are people stupid for living on an earthquake fault ?
What about in tornado ally ?
Man any one on an island must be a retard by your logic , as now amount of infrastructure spending can save one of those from a mega storm .
Course you better stay south of the heavy snow , have you checked your cities snow plows lately ?
etc.One day this sort of dickheaded intellectual snobbishness is going to drive all the decent readership from this site .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I find this line of reasoning pretty abhorrent.
Admittedly I live a long way from the coast, but its not like I make periodic inspections of Mansfield damn or check the undercarriage of the upper deck of the freeway for damage.
There are people who are supposed to do that, and there is plenty of blame to go around that things were allowed to fall apart like they did during Katrina, but to blame people for living in the city because they were "stupid" for not taking time out of their jobs and lives to investigate their cities infrastructure is both callous and hypocritical, as I doubt you have done any civic inspection recently (unless that is your job) and every where people can live has natural hazards.
Are people stupid for living on an earthquake fault?
What about in tornado ally?
Man any one on an island must be a retard by your logic, as now amount of infrastructure spending can save one of those from a mega storm.
Course you better stay south of the heavy snow, have you checked your cities snow plows lately?
etc.One day this sort of dickheaded intellectual snobbishness is going to drive all the decent readership from this site.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170642</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171590</id>
	<title>Re:Knowing about a problem and not acting</title>
	<author>Kaboom13</author>
	<datestamp>1258734960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Miami was hit by Hurricane Andrew(a Cat 5), it caused a lot of damage in Homestead and some other areas but nothing really on the scale of Katrina.  We are pretty used to hurricanes in Florida, and most Floridians know to take precautions, including getting the fuck out of dodge when they call your area an evacuation area.  South Florida is general at sea level, not below it, and we have extensive drainage systems.  Florida has extremely strict building codes to make buildings that are much more likely to survive a hurricane.  The last hurricane to hit South Florida did relatively minor damage, although power was out for about a week in most places (this was due to Florida Power and Lighting's horrendous maintenance policies they had enacted since they realized the state would bail them out of any hurricane damage losses, so they stopped doing the maintenance that would prevent most of the damage).  We also don't have as big a poverty problem as New Orleans does, so FEMA will actually come help us.  For those of us used to living through hurricanes, Katrina was something on a whole different level.  In South Florida, if you make it through the night and the storm passes, you know you are going to be ok.  Katrina dragged on for weeks.</p><p>I think the city of New Orleans, and the state of Louisiana need to share in the responsibility.  If your city is one broken levee away from disaster, you would think you would perform independent audits of your levee infrastructure.  If the army core of engineers wont fix it, the feds wont fix it, the state won't fix it, then it is up to the people of that city on whose lives depend on it, to cough up the money however they can to fix it.  They managed to build a football stadium, they can get a hold of funds to audit and repair levees.  They also lacked adequate planning and preparation for shelters, evacuation transportation, and relief supplies.  These are all simple things that we do here in South Florida that the government should have been doing in New Orleans, and the people need to take them to task for that.  A hurricane in the gulf is not an extraordinary event, that can't be planned for.  It is not an alien invasion or godzilla attack.  If you are on the east coast, especially the gulf region, it is never a question of if a hurricane is going to hit you, but when.  On the local news media here (where a lot of attention is paid to hurricanes for obvious reasons) I remember it generally came up about once a season when a hurricane was predicted to enter the gulf how bad it could be if it hit Lousiana.  Apparently the local weather guy here has more sense then the entire New Orleans government?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Miami was hit by Hurricane Andrew ( a Cat 5 ) , it caused a lot of damage in Homestead and some other areas but nothing really on the scale of Katrina .
We are pretty used to hurricanes in Florida , and most Floridians know to take precautions , including getting the fuck out of dodge when they call your area an evacuation area .
South Florida is general at sea level , not below it , and we have extensive drainage systems .
Florida has extremely strict building codes to make buildings that are much more likely to survive a hurricane .
The last hurricane to hit South Florida did relatively minor damage , although power was out for about a week in most places ( this was due to Florida Power and Lighting 's horrendous maintenance policies they had enacted since they realized the state would bail them out of any hurricane damage losses , so they stopped doing the maintenance that would prevent most of the damage ) .
We also do n't have as big a poverty problem as New Orleans does , so FEMA will actually come help us .
For those of us used to living through hurricanes , Katrina was something on a whole different level .
In South Florida , if you make it through the night and the storm passes , you know you are going to be ok. Katrina dragged on for weeks.I think the city of New Orleans , and the state of Louisiana need to share in the responsibility .
If your city is one broken levee away from disaster , you would think you would perform independent audits of your levee infrastructure .
If the army core of engineers wont fix it , the feds wont fix it , the state wo n't fix it , then it is up to the people of that city on whose lives depend on it , to cough up the money however they can to fix it .
They managed to build a football stadium , they can get a hold of funds to audit and repair levees .
They also lacked adequate planning and preparation for shelters , evacuation transportation , and relief supplies .
These are all simple things that we do here in South Florida that the government should have been doing in New Orleans , and the people need to take them to task for that .
A hurricane in the gulf is not an extraordinary event , that ca n't be planned for .
It is not an alien invasion or godzilla attack .
If you are on the east coast , especially the gulf region , it is never a question of if a hurricane is going to hit you , but when .
On the local news media here ( where a lot of attention is paid to hurricanes for obvious reasons ) I remember it generally came up about once a season when a hurricane was predicted to enter the gulf how bad it could be if it hit Lousiana .
Apparently the local weather guy here has more sense then the entire New Orleans government ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Miami was hit by Hurricane Andrew(a Cat 5), it caused a lot of damage in Homestead and some other areas but nothing really on the scale of Katrina.
We are pretty used to hurricanes in Florida, and most Floridians know to take precautions, including getting the fuck out of dodge when they call your area an evacuation area.
South Florida is general at sea level, not below it, and we have extensive drainage systems.
Florida has extremely strict building codes to make buildings that are much more likely to survive a hurricane.
The last hurricane to hit South Florida did relatively minor damage, although power was out for about a week in most places (this was due to Florida Power and Lighting's horrendous maintenance policies they had enacted since they realized the state would bail them out of any hurricane damage losses, so they stopped doing the maintenance that would prevent most of the damage).
We also don't have as big a poverty problem as New Orleans does, so FEMA will actually come help us.
For those of us used to living through hurricanes, Katrina was something on a whole different level.
In South Florida, if you make it through the night and the storm passes, you know you are going to be ok.  Katrina dragged on for weeks.I think the city of New Orleans, and the state of Louisiana need to share in the responsibility.
If your city is one broken levee away from disaster, you would think you would perform independent audits of your levee infrastructure.
If the army core of engineers wont fix it, the feds wont fix it, the state won't fix it, then it is up to the people of that city on whose lives depend on it, to cough up the money however they can to fix it.
They managed to build a football stadium, they can get a hold of funds to audit and repair levees.
They also lacked adequate planning and preparation for shelters, evacuation transportation, and relief supplies.
These are all simple things that we do here in South Florida that the government should have been doing in New Orleans, and the people need to take them to task for that.
A hurricane in the gulf is not an extraordinary event, that can't be planned for.
It is not an alien invasion or godzilla attack.
If you are on the east coast, especially the gulf region, it is never a question of if a hurricane is going to hit you, but when.
On the local news media here (where a lot of attention is paid to hurricanes for obvious reasons) I remember it generally came up about once a season when a hurricane was predicted to enter the gulf how bad it could be if it hit Lousiana.
Apparently the local weather guy here has more sense then the entire New Orleans government?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171190</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171724</id>
	<title>The corps did not fail and was not shortsided</title>
	<author>Karnje</author>
	<datestamp>1258735620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ok this shows how little people know about the Army's responsibility here. First off they are charged with making sure a waterway is "Navigable" not that your house is not going to be swamped. The waterway was navigable before the storm, during the storm and after the storm. Had the water been completely drained off into another geological feature and not been "navigable" after the storm they would have been at fault. This Ruling is pure bullshit, it's designed to force insurance companies to cough up the dough for these ppl's houses. If someone can be found to be at fault then they have to pay and then can sue that party for the damages. What better party to sue for damages than the one with the most money, the federal government. Lesson learned if you live in hole and it rains, expect to be flooded or drowned. To expect ANY structure made by men to withstand and act of god is total stupidity.

It is amazing to me that most ppl cannot make the abundantly clear connection between our way of life and the natural world. Do you think that our economy coming apart at the same time the ecology is breaking down is a mere coincidence? Do you ppl really think your separate from the natural world? This storm was a clear sign that our entire system here in the US is completely broken and needs to be torn all the way down and rebuilt from scratch. The trillions the federal government has spent in bailouts is a clear sign that our leaders have lost all touch with reality and is a sure sign that the American ppl are doomed to repeat tragedies like this. The status quo has changed the reason why is because grandpa is dead and the upcoming generation doesn't even know how to be conservative with resources. Katrina was a baby storm ppl, the next one might flood the Mississippi from the coast to the Missouri. No amount of money can stop the &ldquo;storms&rdquo; coming in this world; what is happening is a complete and utter change in our way of life.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ok this shows how little people know about the Army 's responsibility here .
First off they are charged with making sure a waterway is " Navigable " not that your house is not going to be swamped .
The waterway was navigable before the storm , during the storm and after the storm .
Had the water been completely drained off into another geological feature and not been " navigable " after the storm they would have been at fault .
This Ruling is pure bullshit , it 's designed to force insurance companies to cough up the dough for these ppl 's houses .
If someone can be found to be at fault then they have to pay and then can sue that party for the damages .
What better party to sue for damages than the one with the most money , the federal government .
Lesson learned if you live in hole and it rains , expect to be flooded or drowned .
To expect ANY structure made by men to withstand and act of god is total stupidity .
It is amazing to me that most ppl can not make the abundantly clear connection between our way of life and the natural world .
Do you think that our economy coming apart at the same time the ecology is breaking down is a mere coincidence ?
Do you ppl really think your separate from the natural world ?
This storm was a clear sign that our entire system here in the US is completely broken and needs to be torn all the way down and rebuilt from scratch .
The trillions the federal government has spent in bailouts is a clear sign that our leaders have lost all touch with reality and is a sure sign that the American ppl are doomed to repeat tragedies like this .
The status quo has changed the reason why is because grandpa is dead and the upcoming generation does n't even know how to be conservative with resources .
Katrina was a baby storm ppl , the next one might flood the Mississippi from the coast to the Missouri .
No amount of money can stop the    storms    coming in this world ; what is happening is a complete and utter change in our way of life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ok this shows how little people know about the Army's responsibility here.
First off they are charged with making sure a waterway is "Navigable" not that your house is not going to be swamped.
The waterway was navigable before the storm, during the storm and after the storm.
Had the water been completely drained off into another geological feature and not been "navigable" after the storm they would have been at fault.
This Ruling is pure bullshit, it's designed to force insurance companies to cough up the dough for these ppl's houses.
If someone can be found to be at fault then they have to pay and then can sue that party for the damages.
What better party to sue for damages than the one with the most money, the federal government.
Lesson learned if you live in hole and it rains, expect to be flooded or drowned.
To expect ANY structure made by men to withstand and act of god is total stupidity.
It is amazing to me that most ppl cannot make the abundantly clear connection between our way of life and the natural world.
Do you think that our economy coming apart at the same time the ecology is breaking down is a mere coincidence?
Do you ppl really think your separate from the natural world?
This storm was a clear sign that our entire system here in the US is completely broken and needs to be torn all the way down and rebuilt from scratch.
The trillions the federal government has spent in bailouts is a clear sign that our leaders have lost all touch with reality and is a sure sign that the American ppl are doomed to repeat tragedies like this.
The status quo has changed the reason why is because grandpa is dead and the upcoming generation doesn't even know how to be conservative with resources.
Katrina was a baby storm ppl, the next one might flood the Mississippi from the coast to the Missouri.
No amount of money can stop the “storms” coming in this world; what is happening is a complete and utter change in our way of life.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30174208</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Khyber</author>
	<datestamp>1258744560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"And that's exactly why the Corps of Engineers who was responsible for maintaining those levees is responsible. If the inevitable disaster was so obvious, why weren't they doing anything about it?"</p><p>Umm, blame Congress, which denied the ACE funding, since the 60's, to repair and reinforce the levee?</p><p>Uh, duh?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" And that 's exactly why the Corps of Engineers who was responsible for maintaining those levees is responsible .
If the inevitable disaster was so obvious , why were n't they doing anything about it ?
" Umm , blame Congress , which denied the ACE funding , since the 60 's , to repair and reinforce the levee ? Uh , duh ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"And that's exactly why the Corps of Engineers who was responsible for maintaining those levees is responsible.
If the inevitable disaster was so obvious, why weren't they doing anything about it?
"Umm, blame Congress, which denied the ACE funding, since the 60's, to repair and reinforce the levee?Uh, duh?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171654</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30172378</id>
	<title>Re:Predictable...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258738140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So, the real people at fault are the French.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So , the real people at fault are the French .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, the real people at fault are the French.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170338</id>
	<title>strange category</title>
	<author>SethJohnson</author>
	<datestamp>1258728420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How does an article about a legal ruling regarding negligence over a flood constitute "your rights online?!?"<br> <br>Seth</htmltext>
<tokenext>How does an article about a legal ruling regarding negligence over a flood constitute " your rights online ? ! ?
" Seth</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How does an article about a legal ruling regarding negligence over a flood constitute "your rights online?!?
" Seth</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171982</id>
	<title>Paying Forever</title>
	<author>gedrin</author>
	<datestamp>1258736820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As a culture, we've decided to feel guilty about the Katrina disaster.  Many of the people of New Orleans belive the disaster was man made, AND that the people of New Orleans have little to no responsibility for it.  Because we feel guilty, we hang our head in shame and nod, then give them money, afirming their belief.  One day we'll be providing special programs for the decendants of the victims of Katrina.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a culture , we 've decided to feel guilty about the Katrina disaster .
Many of the people of New Orleans belive the disaster was man made , AND that the people of New Orleans have little to no responsibility for it .
Because we feel guilty , we hang our head in shame and nod , then give them money , afirming their belief .
One day we 'll be providing special programs for the decendants of the victims of Katrina .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a culture, we've decided to feel guilty about the Katrina disaster.
Many of the people of New Orleans belive the disaster was man made, AND that the people of New Orleans have little to no responsibility for it.
Because we feel guilty, we hang our head in shame and nod, then give them money, afirming their belief.
One day we'll be providing special programs for the decendants of the victims of Katrina.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170426</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258728960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Appealing to "individual responsibility" is fun and all; but senseless if perspective is not kept.



Living below sea level is stupid. However, living below sea level <i>behind a levee designed specifically to make that area habitable, which has been doing exactly that for years and years now</i> is considerably less stupid.



Does "individual responsibility" require near-Cartesian levels of doubt in every possible piece of infrastructure?</p></div><p>The levee could not handle a Category 3 hurricane.  Category 3 hurricanes which hit that area are periodic events that happen from time to time; they are absolutely inevitable.  So you have a city below sea level protected by a barrier which cannot possibly handle an event that you know with certainty will one day happen.  Additionally, all those years that passed without it happening were ample opportunity to reinforce the levee and otherwise to prepare for that eventuality.  This did not happen.  This alone would dissuade me from living there because the result is absolutely predictable.  It's only a question of when.
<br> <br>
What do you call it when people make themselves available for preventable disasters that are easy to foresee?  Usually the word "stupid" is used to describe actions like this.  "Stupid" is also used to describe people who need a politician or other official to tell them when something is a bad idea because they've lost their common sense and have replaced it with various authority figures.  So without a government mandate or official inquiry they, acting on their own, would not seriously question the integrity of the levees or the tremendous risk they were taking.  That sheeplike dependency, that inability to independently question and reason, explains not only why New Orleans was such a terrible diaster but also most of American politics and government expansion.
<br> <br>
If you want to do something constructive, don't feel sorry for them or make excuses for them.  Those sentiments are probably meant well but they accomplish nothing.  They have no power to prevent a future disaster.  If you want to do something, use this as an example for why there is no substitute for thinking for yourself and assessing your own risks.  Let it represent why there is no substitute for those things, that all kinds of preventable harm is caused by the failure to value those things.  The (minority of) people who understand this got out of New Orleans a long time ago and wouldn't have considered moving back without substantial improvements to the inadequate levee.  The rest were surprised by the inevitable, which is like choosing to be a victim.
<br> <br>
So yes, individual responsibility was a big factor here.  It's not about doubting everything to an absurd degree.  It's about knowing the situation you're in and putting yourself into a different situation if it's an invitation to disaster.  But the folks who were hit hardest were not thinkers.  They didn't think about their situation or compare it to other situations or evaluate risks.  They had no such awareness.  They just did their daily thing without a second thought and were surprised when something happened.  That's the real message here.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Appealing to " individual responsibility " is fun and all ; but senseless if perspective is not kept .
Living below sea level is stupid .
However , living below sea level behind a levee designed specifically to make that area habitable , which has been doing exactly that for years and years now is considerably less stupid .
Does " individual responsibility " require near-Cartesian levels of doubt in every possible piece of infrastructure ? The levee could not handle a Category 3 hurricane .
Category 3 hurricanes which hit that area are periodic events that happen from time to time ; they are absolutely inevitable .
So you have a city below sea level protected by a barrier which can not possibly handle an event that you know with certainty will one day happen .
Additionally , all those years that passed without it happening were ample opportunity to reinforce the levee and otherwise to prepare for that eventuality .
This did not happen .
This alone would dissuade me from living there because the result is absolutely predictable .
It 's only a question of when .
What do you call it when people make themselves available for preventable disasters that are easy to foresee ?
Usually the word " stupid " is used to describe actions like this .
" Stupid " is also used to describe people who need a politician or other official to tell them when something is a bad idea because they 've lost their common sense and have replaced it with various authority figures .
So without a government mandate or official inquiry they , acting on their own , would not seriously question the integrity of the levees or the tremendous risk they were taking .
That sheeplike dependency , that inability to independently question and reason , explains not only why New Orleans was such a terrible diaster but also most of American politics and government expansion .
If you want to do something constructive , do n't feel sorry for them or make excuses for them .
Those sentiments are probably meant well but they accomplish nothing .
They have no power to prevent a future disaster .
If you want to do something , use this as an example for why there is no substitute for thinking for yourself and assessing your own risks .
Let it represent why there is no substitute for those things , that all kinds of preventable harm is caused by the failure to value those things .
The ( minority of ) people who understand this got out of New Orleans a long time ago and would n't have considered moving back without substantial improvements to the inadequate levee .
The rest were surprised by the inevitable , which is like choosing to be a victim .
So yes , individual responsibility was a big factor here .
It 's not about doubting everything to an absurd degree .
It 's about knowing the situation you 're in and putting yourself into a different situation if it 's an invitation to disaster .
But the folks who were hit hardest were not thinkers .
They did n't think about their situation or compare it to other situations or evaluate risks .
They had no such awareness .
They just did their daily thing without a second thought and were surprised when something happened .
That 's the real message here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Appealing to "individual responsibility" is fun and all; but senseless if perspective is not kept.
Living below sea level is stupid.
However, living below sea level behind a levee designed specifically to make that area habitable, which has been doing exactly that for years and years now is considerably less stupid.
Does "individual responsibility" require near-Cartesian levels of doubt in every possible piece of infrastructure?The levee could not handle a Category 3 hurricane.
Category 3 hurricanes which hit that area are periodic events that happen from time to time; they are absolutely inevitable.
So you have a city below sea level protected by a barrier which cannot possibly handle an event that you know with certainty will one day happen.
Additionally, all those years that passed without it happening were ample opportunity to reinforce the levee and otherwise to prepare for that eventuality.
This did not happen.
This alone would dissuade me from living there because the result is absolutely predictable.
It's only a question of when.
What do you call it when people make themselves available for preventable disasters that are easy to foresee?
Usually the word "stupid" is used to describe actions like this.
"Stupid" is also used to describe people who need a politician or other official to tell them when something is a bad idea because they've lost their common sense and have replaced it with various authority figures.
So without a government mandate or official inquiry they, acting on their own, would not seriously question the integrity of the levees or the tremendous risk they were taking.
That sheeplike dependency, that inability to independently question and reason, explains not only why New Orleans was such a terrible diaster but also most of American politics and government expansion.
If you want to do something constructive, don't feel sorry for them or make excuses for them.
Those sentiments are probably meant well but they accomplish nothing.
They have no power to prevent a future disaster.
If you want to do something, use this as an example for why there is no substitute for thinking for yourself and assessing your own risks.
Let it represent why there is no substitute for those things, that all kinds of preventable harm is caused by the failure to value those things.
The (minority of) people who understand this got out of New Orleans a long time ago and wouldn't have considered moving back without substantial improvements to the inadequate levee.
The rest were surprised by the inevitable, which is like choosing to be a victim.
So yes, individual responsibility was a big factor here.
It's not about doubting everything to an absurd degree.
It's about knowing the situation you're in and putting yourself into a different situation if it's an invitation to disaster.
But the folks who were hit hardest were not thinkers.
They didn't think about their situation or compare it to other situations or evaluate risks.
They had no such awareness.
They just did their daily thing without a second thought and were surprised when something happened.
That's the real message here.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30173924</id>
	<title>Re:so don't live in</title>
	<author>sexconker</author>
	<datestamp>1258743660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>the reason they were nto maintianed is becasue Bush stole the money to pay for tax breaks for his rich friends.</p></div><p>They were not maintained because the local government refused to allow the maintenance and construction to take place.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>the reason they were nto maintianed is becasue Bush stole the money to pay for tax breaks for his rich friends.They were not maintained because the local government refused to allow the maintenance and construction to take place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the reason they were nto maintianed is becasue Bush stole the money to pay for tax breaks for his rich friends.They were not maintained because the local government refused to allow the maintenance and construction to take place.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171166</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171532</id>
	<title>Re:Predictable...</title>
	<author>OneSmartFellow</author>
	<datestamp>1258734780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How about the fact that New Orleans refineries are only there because some back-handers ensured they stayed there, not because it was somehow a superior location.</htmltext>
<tokenext>How about the fact that New Orleans refineries are only there because some back-handers ensured they stayed there , not because it was somehow a superior location .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about the fact that New Orleans refineries are only there because some back-handers ensured they stayed there, not because it was somehow a superior location.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171006</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30174196</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>causality</author>
	<datestamp>1258744500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>So, before Katrina did you know all about the levees?
Is that one of those tourist hotspots that everybody goes to see?</p></div></blockquote><p>
If I visited for a weekend perhaps then I would take my chances.  That's not unreasonable because hurricane warnings are generally early enough that you would have time to leave town if one was headed that way.
<br> <br>
However, if I were moving to New Orleans from another area, you're damned right I would investigate such things.  I'd also learn what the schools are like and how they perform if I intended to raise a family there.  I would learn things like the crime rate and the cost of living.  Why would I do something blindly and haphazardly if I don't have to?  If I can't be bothered to learn a few basic things about an area and choose to move there anyway, and something predictable happens to me as a result of moving there, that would be my fault.  If something is my fault, I am never going to fix that fault of mine if I find someone else to blame.
<br> <br>
You'll never catch me building a home on a fault line.  I won't build one in a flood plain either.  For that matter, I wouldn't live right next to an active volcano.  For the same reason, I wouldn't live in an area below sea level in a part of the USA that regularly gets hit by hurricanes unless I was completely satisfied that it was sufficiently protected.  That people believe this is some unusually thorough or out-of-the-box thinking is the real problem here.
<br> <br>
Besides, even passive people who think that basic research and a little foreknowledge is a terribly unreasonable burden that no one can expect them to take on (hah) could have known about the levees.  The army corps have warned about their inadequacy since the 1960s as others in this thread have pointed out.  That means this has been a known issue for nearly half a century.  I am nowhere near New Orleans and I know that; if anything, the locals should be better informed about it than me.
<br> <br>
Look, I think I understand your objection here.  You think I'm blaming the victim.  Show me a real victim who had no way of knowing better and suffers through no fault of their own and you won't ever see me doing that.  True victims, however, are rare.  People who had opportunity to know better but didn't, and only because they didn't care to inform themselves, are not actually victims.
<br> <br>
When you decide that basic understanding is not important and not worth acquiring, you are taking a risk.  You risk suffering from things that basic understanding would have protected you from.  They took a risk that they had the ability to know they were taking and it didn't work out for them.  They are not victims of Katrina any more than a gambler who loses money is a victim of the casino.
<br> <br>
This is actually a good thing because a real victim is powerless.  If the people hit by Katrina are not actually victims but could have known better, it means they can learn from the experience and never have to have another experience like that again.  They can take control of this aspect of their lives.  They don't need to be helpless.  That's good for them and for anyone who doesn't want them to be helpless and powerless.  However, they will remain helpless and powerless as long as their main concern is whom to blame.</p><blockquote><div><p>Anyone who knows anything about civil engineers that build these? They take on the responsibility for those structures. Since it was built by a government agency, designed to make the area habitable and protect people, not ONLY should the government be keeping track of it (that's one thing we pay taxes for! People ARE being responsible, they're paying for that service!) but so should the engineers who built it, because they're legally liable in the first place.</p></div></blockquote><p>
I agree that the government should be legally liable here.  That doesn't mean the people who suffered the most from Katrina couldn't have known better.  The government would be legally liable because of its negligence; that is, its failure to have a strong enough levee.  But if the government is negligently handling an important piece of infrastructure, and this has been known for about half a century, that's all the more reason for me not to live in that area!  The government that could have known better has its legal liability.  The people who could have known better have their personal reponsibility.  I do not view these as mutually exclusive.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So , before Katrina did you know all about the levees ?
Is that one of those tourist hotspots that everybody goes to see ?
If I visited for a weekend perhaps then I would take my chances .
That 's not unreasonable because hurricane warnings are generally early enough that you would have time to leave town if one was headed that way .
However , if I were moving to New Orleans from another area , you 're damned right I would investigate such things .
I 'd also learn what the schools are like and how they perform if I intended to raise a family there .
I would learn things like the crime rate and the cost of living .
Why would I do something blindly and haphazardly if I do n't have to ?
If I ca n't be bothered to learn a few basic things about an area and choose to move there anyway , and something predictable happens to me as a result of moving there , that would be my fault .
If something is my fault , I am never going to fix that fault of mine if I find someone else to blame .
You 'll never catch me building a home on a fault line .
I wo n't build one in a flood plain either .
For that matter , I would n't live right next to an active volcano .
For the same reason , I would n't live in an area below sea level in a part of the USA that regularly gets hit by hurricanes unless I was completely satisfied that it was sufficiently protected .
That people believe this is some unusually thorough or out-of-the-box thinking is the real problem here .
Besides , even passive people who think that basic research and a little foreknowledge is a terribly unreasonable burden that no one can expect them to take on ( hah ) could have known about the levees .
The army corps have warned about their inadequacy since the 1960s as others in this thread have pointed out .
That means this has been a known issue for nearly half a century .
I am nowhere near New Orleans and I know that ; if anything , the locals should be better informed about it than me .
Look , I think I understand your objection here .
You think I 'm blaming the victim .
Show me a real victim who had no way of knowing better and suffers through no fault of their own and you wo n't ever see me doing that .
True victims , however , are rare .
People who had opportunity to know better but did n't , and only because they did n't care to inform themselves , are not actually victims .
When you decide that basic understanding is not important and not worth acquiring , you are taking a risk .
You risk suffering from things that basic understanding would have protected you from .
They took a risk that they had the ability to know they were taking and it did n't work out for them .
They are not victims of Katrina any more than a gambler who loses money is a victim of the casino .
This is actually a good thing because a real victim is powerless .
If the people hit by Katrina are not actually victims but could have known better , it means they can learn from the experience and never have to have another experience like that again .
They can take control of this aspect of their lives .
They do n't need to be helpless .
That 's good for them and for anyone who does n't want them to be helpless and powerless .
However , they will remain helpless and powerless as long as their main concern is whom to blame.Anyone who knows anything about civil engineers that build these ?
They take on the responsibility for those structures .
Since it was built by a government agency , designed to make the area habitable and protect people , not ONLY should the government be keeping track of it ( that 's one thing we pay taxes for !
People ARE being responsible , they 're paying for that service !
) but so should the engineers who built it , because they 're legally liable in the first place .
I agree that the government should be legally liable here .
That does n't mean the people who suffered the most from Katrina could n't have known better .
The government would be legally liable because of its negligence ; that is , its failure to have a strong enough levee .
But if the government is negligently handling an important piece of infrastructure , and this has been known for about half a century , that 's all the more reason for me not to live in that area !
The government that could have known better has its legal liability .
The people who could have known better have their personal reponsibility .
I do not view these as mutually exclusive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, before Katrina did you know all about the levees?
Is that one of those tourist hotspots that everybody goes to see?
If I visited for a weekend perhaps then I would take my chances.
That's not unreasonable because hurricane warnings are generally early enough that you would have time to leave town if one was headed that way.
However, if I were moving to New Orleans from another area, you're damned right I would investigate such things.
I'd also learn what the schools are like and how they perform if I intended to raise a family there.
I would learn things like the crime rate and the cost of living.
Why would I do something blindly and haphazardly if I don't have to?
If I can't be bothered to learn a few basic things about an area and choose to move there anyway, and something predictable happens to me as a result of moving there, that would be my fault.
If something is my fault, I am never going to fix that fault of mine if I find someone else to blame.
You'll never catch me building a home on a fault line.
I won't build one in a flood plain either.
For that matter, I wouldn't live right next to an active volcano.
For the same reason, I wouldn't live in an area below sea level in a part of the USA that regularly gets hit by hurricanes unless I was completely satisfied that it was sufficiently protected.
That people believe this is some unusually thorough or out-of-the-box thinking is the real problem here.
Besides, even passive people who think that basic research and a little foreknowledge is a terribly unreasonable burden that no one can expect them to take on (hah) could have known about the levees.
The army corps have warned about their inadequacy since the 1960s as others in this thread have pointed out.
That means this has been a known issue for nearly half a century.
I am nowhere near New Orleans and I know that; if anything, the locals should be better informed about it than me.
Look, I think I understand your objection here.
You think I'm blaming the victim.
Show me a real victim who had no way of knowing better and suffers through no fault of their own and you won't ever see me doing that.
True victims, however, are rare.
People who had opportunity to know better but didn't, and only because they didn't care to inform themselves, are not actually victims.
When you decide that basic understanding is not important and not worth acquiring, you are taking a risk.
You risk suffering from things that basic understanding would have protected you from.
They took a risk that they had the ability to know they were taking and it didn't work out for them.
They are not victims of Katrina any more than a gambler who loses money is a victim of the casino.
This is actually a good thing because a real victim is powerless.
If the people hit by Katrina are not actually victims but could have known better, it means they can learn from the experience and never have to have another experience like that again.
They can take control of this aspect of their lives.
They don't need to be helpless.
That's good for them and for anyone who doesn't want them to be helpless and powerless.
However, they will remain helpless and powerless as long as their main concern is whom to blame.Anyone who knows anything about civil engineers that build these?
They take on the responsibility for those structures.
Since it was built by a government agency, designed to make the area habitable and protect people, not ONLY should the government be keeping track of it (that's one thing we pay taxes for!
People ARE being responsible, they're paying for that service!
) but so should the engineers who built it, because they're legally liable in the first place.
I agree that the government should be legally liable here.
That doesn't mean the people who suffered the most from Katrina couldn't have known better.
The government would be legally liable because of its negligence; that is, its failure to have a strong enough levee.
But if the government is negligently handling an important piece of infrastructure, and this has been known for about half a century, that's all the more reason for me not to live in that area!
The government that could have known better has its legal liability.
The people who could have known better have their personal reponsibility.
I do not view these as mutually exclusive.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171500</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170248</id>
	<title>Bush cut funds for levee project</title>
	<author>viralMeme</author>
	<datestamp>1258727640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"by 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war. In 2004, <a href="http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2005/08/31/disaster\_preparation/index.html" title="salon.com" rel="nofollow">the Bush administration cut funding</a> [salon.com] requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent.<br> <br>

Additional cuts at the beginning of this year (for a total reduction in funding of 44.2 percent since 2001) forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze. The Senate had debated adding funds for fixing New Orleans' levees, but it was too late"</htmltext>
<tokenext>" by 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war .
In 2004 , the Bush administration cut funding [ salon.com ] requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent .
Additional cuts at the beginning of this year ( for a total reduction in funding of 44.2 percent since 2001 ) forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze .
The Senate had debated adding funds for fixing New Orleans ' levees , but it was too late "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"by 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war.
In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding [salon.com] requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent.
Additional cuts at the beginning of this year (for a total reduction in funding of 44.2 percent since 2001) forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze.
The Senate had debated adding funds for fixing New Orleans' levees, but it was too late"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30174390</id>
	<title>Google the judge</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258745160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The background of Judge Stanwood Duval may explain his decision.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The background of Judge Stanwood Duval may explain his decision .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The background of Judge Stanwood Duval may explain his decision.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30172228</id>
	<title>Re:Predictable...</title>
	<author>Mordac</author>
	<datestamp>1258737720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They did not build the city next to the gulf and below water. Open a history book, this is a man made disaster, we humans have moved the Gulf to New Orleans and sunk the city.  Its what happend when you destroy thousands of square miles of wetlands to allow a couple more ships per day up the Mississippi and ignore why people built New Orleans so far inland (it was to the Gulf originally as Baton Rouge is now.)</p><p>For a supposed bunch of intelligent people, most of you readers on Slashdot seem to know nothing of history, nor of engineered malfeasance.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They did not build the city next to the gulf and below water .
Open a history book , this is a man made disaster , we humans have moved the Gulf to New Orleans and sunk the city .
Its what happend when you destroy thousands of square miles of wetlands to allow a couple more ships per day up the Mississippi and ignore why people built New Orleans so far inland ( it was to the Gulf originally as Baton Rouge is now .
) For a supposed bunch of intelligent people , most of you readers on Slashdot seem to know nothing of history , nor of engineered malfeasance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They did not build the city next to the gulf and below water.
Open a history book, this is a man made disaster, we humans have moved the Gulf to New Orleans and sunk the city.
Its what happend when you destroy thousands of square miles of wetlands to allow a couple more ships per day up the Mississippi and ignore why people built New Orleans so far inland (it was to the Gulf originally as Baton Rouge is now.
)For a supposed bunch of intelligent people, most of you readers on Slashdot seem to know nothing of history, nor of engineered malfeasance.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170620</id>
	<title>So the taxpayers...</title>
	<author>Kidro</author>
	<datestamp>1258730100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>We're already spending significant sums of taxpayer money to not only keep those anti-flood measures kept up, but also to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old\_River\_Control\_Structure" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">continue preventing the Mississippi River from going through its natural course changes</a> [wikipedia.org] (Wikipedia).
<br> <br>
I realize that there's a huge economic consideration in the whole mess of the river changing course, but shouldn't we be spending effort and money on finding a long term solution, rather than fighting a losing battle against a force of nature we can only hold back for so long and giving money to people who already received plenty of tax money and charity?</htmltext>
<tokenext>We 're already spending significant sums of taxpayer money to not only keep those anti-flood measures kept up , but also to continue preventing the Mississippi River from going through its natural course changes [ wikipedia.org ] ( Wikipedia ) .
I realize that there 's a huge economic consideration in the whole mess of the river changing course , but should n't we be spending effort and money on finding a long term solution , rather than fighting a losing battle against a force of nature we can only hold back for so long and giving money to people who already received plenty of tax money and charity ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We're already spending significant sums of taxpayer money to not only keep those anti-flood measures kept up, but also to continue preventing the Mississippi River from going through its natural course changes [wikipedia.org] (Wikipedia).
I realize that there's a huge economic consideration in the whole mess of the river changing course, but shouldn't we be spending effort and money on finding a long term solution, rather than fighting a losing battle against a force of nature we can only hold back for so long and giving money to people who already received plenty of tax money and charity?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171552</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258734900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>You wrote:<p><div class="quote"><p>So you have a city below sea level protected by a barrier which cannot possibly handle an event that you know with certainty will one day happen. Additionally, all those years that passed without it happening were ample opportunity to reinforce the levee and otherwise to prepare for that eventuality.</p></div><p>The judge agrees with you:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>'It is the court's opinion that the negligence of the corps, in this instance by failing to maintain the MR-GO properly, was not policy, but insouciance, myopia, and shortsightedness,'</p></div><p>The thing is, the judge lives, along with most of us, in a world where people and organizations have some minimal obligation to other people. Thus, when there is a government organization whose responsibility it is to build levees that will protect a city full or people, and when this organization fails to protect against something that is, as both you and the judge point out, perfectly predictable, then we say this organization has been negligent, and we hold it responsible. We call this state of affairs civilization. Come join us!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You wrote : So you have a city below sea level protected by a barrier which can not possibly handle an event that you know with certainty will one day happen .
Additionally , all those years that passed without it happening were ample opportunity to reinforce the levee and otherwise to prepare for that eventuality.The judge agrees with you : 'It is the court 's opinion that the negligence of the corps , in this instance by failing to maintain the MR-GO properly , was not policy , but insouciance , myopia , and shortsightedness,'The thing is , the judge lives , along with most of us , in a world where people and organizations have some minimal obligation to other people .
Thus , when there is a government organization whose responsibility it is to build levees that will protect a city full or people , and when this organization fails to protect against something that is , as both you and the judge point out , perfectly predictable , then we say this organization has been negligent , and we hold it responsible .
We call this state of affairs civilization .
Come join us !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You wrote:So you have a city below sea level protected by a barrier which cannot possibly handle an event that you know with certainty will one day happen.
Additionally, all those years that passed without it happening were ample opportunity to reinforce the levee and otherwise to prepare for that eventuality.The judge agrees with you:'It is the court's opinion that the negligence of the corps, in this instance by failing to maintain the MR-GO properly, was not policy, but insouciance, myopia, and shortsightedness,'The thing is, the judge lives, along with most of us, in a world where people and organizations have some minimal obligation to other people.
Thus, when there is a government organization whose responsibility it is to build levees that will protect a city full or people, and when this organization fails to protect against something that is, as both you and the judge point out, perfectly predictable, then we say this organization has been negligent, and we hold it responsible.
We call this state of affairs civilization.
Come join us!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170426</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170856</id>
	<title>Quality writing coming out of our judicial system</title>
	<author>idontgno</author>
	<datestamp>1258731480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>failing to maintain the MR-GO properly, was not policy, but insouciance, <strong>myopia, and shortsightedness</strong> </i> </p><p>-1 Redundant</p><p>Too bad we can't moderate court judgments. But then someone else would M2 and who knows what that would lead to.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>failing to maintain the MR-GO properly , was not policy , but insouciance , myopia , and shortsightedness -1 RedundantToo bad we ca n't moderate court judgments .
But then someone else would M2 and who knows what that would lead to .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> failing to maintain the MR-GO properly, was not policy, but insouciance, myopia, and shortsightedness  -1 RedundantToo bad we can't moderate court judgments.
But then someone else would M2 and who knows what that would lead to.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170372</id>
	<title>Re:Myopia and shortsightedness</title>
	<author>Rob the Bold</author>
	<datestamp>1258728660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In my opinion, it wasn't just myopia and shortsightedness, but nearsightedness as well!</p></div><p>You're neglecting the "insouciance".</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In my opinion , it was n't just myopia and shortsightedness , but nearsightedness as well ! You 're neglecting the " insouciance " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my opinion, it wasn't just myopia and shortsightedness, but nearsightedness as well!You're neglecting the "insouciance".
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170250</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30183618</id>
	<title>Re:Sue the Pope next</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258811460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, but most of them are in dissent with the pope, so God may have steered it toward them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , but most of them are in dissent with the pope , so God may have steered it toward them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, but most of them are in dissent with the pope, so God may have steered it toward them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171416</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170250</id>
	<title>Myopia and shortsightedness</title>
	<author>michelcolman</author>
	<datestamp>1258727640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>In my opinion, it wasn't just myopia and shortsightedness, but nearsightedness as well!</htmltext>
<tokenext>In my opinion , it was n't just myopia and shortsightedness , but nearsightedness as well !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my opinion, it wasn't just myopia and shortsightedness, but nearsightedness as well!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30172064</id>
	<title>Oh it's worse than that</title>
	<author>NotSoHeavyD3</author>
	<datestamp>1258737120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It isn't that they built something that they knew wasn't up to the task of handling a category 3 storm. (Because at least in that case you'd have some info.) They built the levees that they thought were good enough to handle a category 3 storm and only found out they were wrong when one hit New Orleans.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is n't that they built something that they knew was n't up to the task of handling a category 3 storm .
( Because at least in that case you 'd have some info .
) They built the levees that they thought were good enough to handle a category 3 storm and only found out they were wrong when one hit New Orleans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It isn't that they built something that they knew wasn't up to the task of handling a category 3 storm.
(Because at least in that case you'd have some info.
) They built the levees that they thought were good enough to handle a category 3 storm and only found out they were wrong when one hit New Orleans.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171654</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170386</id>
	<title>Predictable...</title>
	<author>wolvesofthenight</author>
	<datestamp>1258728720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>They are partly correct: This catastrophes in the history was both predictable and preventable. They built a city right next to the ocean, bellow sea level, in a major hurricane zone, on a sinking delta, and in the flood plain of one of the world's largest rivers. It is quite easy to predict that any such city will be flooded, and being a major city it was a major disaster. And it was preventable: they could have built the city somewhere else, and limited the use of the delta area to only stuff that had to be there.</htmltext>
<tokenext>They are partly correct : This catastrophes in the history was both predictable and preventable .
They built a city right next to the ocean , bellow sea level , in a major hurricane zone , on a sinking delta , and in the flood plain of one of the world 's largest rivers .
It is quite easy to predict that any such city will be flooded , and being a major city it was a major disaster .
And it was preventable : they could have built the city somewhere else , and limited the use of the delta area to only stuff that had to be there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They are partly correct: This catastrophes in the history was both predictable and preventable.
They built a city right next to the ocean, bellow sea level, in a major hurricane zone, on a sinking delta, and in the flood plain of one of the world's largest rivers.
It is quite easy to predict that any such city will be flooded, and being a major city it was a major disaster.
And it was preventable: they could have built the city somewhere else, and limited the use of the delta area to only stuff that had to be there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30197610</id>
	<title>Impossible</title>
	<author>println(</author>
	<datestamp>1258894920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I thought it was legally impossible to win a case or even to sue Army Core of Engineers.  I saw it in the HBO documentary on Katrina - "When the Levees Broke".</htmltext>
<tokenext>I thought it was legally impossible to win a case or even to sue Army Core of Engineers .
I saw it in the HBO documentary on Katrina - " When the Levees Broke " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I thought it was legally impossible to win a case or even to sue Army Core of Engineers.
I saw it in the HBO documentary on Katrina - "When the Levees Broke".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170534</id>
	<title>No surprise here</title>
	<author>Neutral\_Observer</author>
	<datestamp>1258729620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>They have had plenty of years to relocate the city inland to a safer area. They got what was coming to them. Anyone who bought property there had to know the risk. It was no secret that it was a flood zone.

Same goes for people who decide to live next to a nuclear power plant, a volcano or an area notorious for tornados.The risk is obvious.

Deciding to continue to live in these areas is the persons own fault. It is not like they are chained to their homes.There is no excuse, they could have walked away.</htmltext>
<tokenext>They have had plenty of years to relocate the city inland to a safer area .
They got what was coming to them .
Anyone who bought property there had to know the risk .
It was no secret that it was a flood zone .
Same goes for people who decide to live next to a nuclear power plant , a volcano or an area notorious for tornados.The risk is obvious .
Deciding to continue to live in these areas is the persons own fault .
It is not like they are chained to their homes.There is no excuse , they could have walked away .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They have had plenty of years to relocate the city inland to a safer area.
They got what was coming to them.
Anyone who bought property there had to know the risk.
It was no secret that it was a flood zone.
Same goes for people who decide to live next to a nuclear power plant, a volcano or an area notorious for tornados.The risk is obvious.
Deciding to continue to live in these areas is the persons own fault.
It is not like they are chained to their homes.There is no excuse, they could have walked away.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170412</id>
	<title>Christian Science?</title>
	<author>nih</author>
	<datestamp>1258728900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Christian Science?, isn't that an oxymoron?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Christian Science ? , is n't that an oxymoron ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Christian Science?, isn't that an oxymoron?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171190</id>
	<title>Knowing about a problem and not acting</title>
	<author>sjbe</author>
	<datestamp>1258733160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Living below sea level is stupid. However, living below sea level behind a levee designed specifically to make that area habitable, which has been doing exactly that for years and years now is considerably less stupid.</p></div><p>The levees in question were <b>known</b> to be inadequate and yet nothing was done.  So it goes straight back into the stupid column in my opinion.  It's one thing if you know about the danger and do all you can to protect yourself.  It's quite another if you just lackadaisically decide to get to it later or maybe never.  There apparently were even plans that had been drawn up but were never implemented for various reasons.  It seems pretty clear as well from the response that many if not most people living there had never seriously considered emergency and evacuation procedures or proper levels of insurance.  If you can't get insurance, maybe that's a clue you shouldn't be living in that location?</p><p>I'm just waiting for Miami to get hit by a major hurricane.  If you think New Orleans was a mess wait till South Florida gets trashed.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Does "individual responsibility" require near-Cartesian levels of doubt in every possible piece of infrastructure?</p></div><p>Why not?  I have car insurance, home insurance, fire insurance, flood insurance, liability insurance, medical insurance as well as plans to deal with most of the reasonably foreseeable events connected with bad stuff that could happen in my life.  You should too and I think that is entirely reasonable.  We have infrastructure to help but it has limits.  One good sized flu pandemic or natural disaster and it's not hard for our emergency infrastructure to get overwhelmed.  At that point you are on your own so you damn well better prepare.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Living below sea level is stupid .
However , living below sea level behind a levee designed specifically to make that area habitable , which has been doing exactly that for years and years now is considerably less stupid.The levees in question were known to be inadequate and yet nothing was done .
So it goes straight back into the stupid column in my opinion .
It 's one thing if you know about the danger and do all you can to protect yourself .
It 's quite another if you just lackadaisically decide to get to it later or maybe never .
There apparently were even plans that had been drawn up but were never implemented for various reasons .
It seems pretty clear as well from the response that many if not most people living there had never seriously considered emergency and evacuation procedures or proper levels of insurance .
If you ca n't get insurance , maybe that 's a clue you should n't be living in that location ? I 'm just waiting for Miami to get hit by a major hurricane .
If you think New Orleans was a mess wait till South Florida gets trashed.Does " individual responsibility " require near-Cartesian levels of doubt in every possible piece of infrastructure ? Why not ?
I have car insurance , home insurance , fire insurance , flood insurance , liability insurance , medical insurance as well as plans to deal with most of the reasonably foreseeable events connected with bad stuff that could happen in my life .
You should too and I think that is entirely reasonable .
We have infrastructure to help but it has limits .
One good sized flu pandemic or natural disaster and it 's not hard for our emergency infrastructure to get overwhelmed .
At that point you are on your own so you damn well better prepare .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Living below sea level is stupid.
However, living below sea level behind a levee designed specifically to make that area habitable, which has been doing exactly that for years and years now is considerably less stupid.The levees in question were known to be inadequate and yet nothing was done.
So it goes straight back into the stupid column in my opinion.
It's one thing if you know about the danger and do all you can to protect yourself.
It's quite another if you just lackadaisically decide to get to it later or maybe never.
There apparently were even plans that had been drawn up but were never implemented for various reasons.
It seems pretty clear as well from the response that many if not most people living there had never seriously considered emergency and evacuation procedures or proper levels of insurance.
If you can't get insurance, maybe that's a clue you shouldn't be living in that location?I'm just waiting for Miami to get hit by a major hurricane.
If you think New Orleans was a mess wait till South Florida gets trashed.Does "individual responsibility" require near-Cartesian levels of doubt in every possible piece of infrastructure?Why not?
I have car insurance, home insurance, fire insurance, flood insurance, liability insurance, medical insurance as well as plans to deal with most of the reasonably foreseeable events connected with bad stuff that could happen in my life.
You should too and I think that is entirely reasonable.
We have infrastructure to help but it has limits.
One good sized flu pandemic or natural disaster and it's not hard for our emergency infrastructure to get overwhelmed.
At that point you are on your own so you damn well better prepare.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30176022</id>
	<title>Re:Predictable...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258750620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a little confused--are you saying that because the city was in an obviously precarious position there's no negligence on the part of the Corps?  Generally if one has a legal duty to prevent an obviously foreseeable danger, and they perform that duty negligently, they are liable.  That it may have happened at some point inevitably doesn't seem to settle the question of whether it happened this time because of the negligence of the Corps.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a little confused--are you saying that because the city was in an obviously precarious position there 's no negligence on the part of the Corps ?
Generally if one has a legal duty to prevent an obviously foreseeable danger , and they perform that duty negligently , they are liable .
That it may have happened at some point inevitably does n't seem to settle the question of whether it happened this time because of the negligence of the Corps .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a little confused--are you saying that because the city was in an obviously precarious position there's no negligence on the part of the Corps?
Generally if one has a legal duty to prevent an obviously foreseeable danger, and they perform that duty negligently, they are liable.
That it may have happened at some point inevitably doesn't seem to settle the question of whether it happened this time because of the negligence of the Corps.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30176362</id>
	<title>Amanda Seyfried/Julianne Moore love scene? Check!</title>
	<author>Impy the Impiuos Imp</author>
	<datestamp>1258708620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In other stunning news, Nashville is a city still waiting to die.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In other stunning news , Nashville is a city still waiting to die .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In other stunning news, Nashville is a city still waiting to die.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170246</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258727640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>if the levee is only rated to work and hold up to a  category x type storm and a x+1 type storm comes along and you're still there. you have nobody to blame but yourself.</htmltext>
<tokenext>if the levee is only rated to work and hold up to a category x type storm and a x + 1 type storm comes along and you 're still there .
you have nobody to blame but yourself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if the levee is only rated to work and hold up to a  category x type storm and a x+1 type storm comes along and you're still there.
you have nobody to blame but yourself.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30173472</id>
	<title>Re:Predictable...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258741920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh yes, "They" were so stupid, if only "they" had talked to you this would have all been avoided.  Had "they" only talked to you "they" would have known that hundreds of years after founding the city it's loose soil would compact and be compacted by the drilling for oil and gas right off of the coast of Louisiana.  "They" should have known better than to build a port city on the biggest waterway in North America.  How selfish and ignorant of "them".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh yes , " They " were so stupid , if only " they " had talked to you this would have all been avoided .
Had " they " only talked to you " they " would have known that hundreds of years after founding the city it 's loose soil would compact and be compacted by the drilling for oil and gas right off of the coast of Louisiana .
" They " should have known better than to build a port city on the biggest waterway in North America .
How selfish and ignorant of " them " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh yes, "They" were so stupid, if only "they" had talked to you this would have all been avoided.
Had "they" only talked to you "they" would have known that hundreds of years after founding the city it's loose soil would compact and be compacted by the drilling for oil and gas right off of the coast of Louisiana.
"They" should have known better than to build a port city on the biggest waterway in North America.
How selfish and ignorant of "them".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170642</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258730280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The levees in New Orleans were not ever designed to make a Category 3+ storm survivable, and they've always been in a TERRIBLE state of repair (anyone who's actually been the the area could tell you that water constantly seeped through them in several places). New Orleans floods during normal rainstorms. Anyone who thought they were safe there during a Hurricane doesn't deserve any pity.</p><p>Also, the money allocated to levee repair/upgrade was spent on things like off-ramps for casinos and such by the local levee boards. This judge declaring the Corps. to be responsible while ignoring the gross criminal negligence by state and local officials is one of the biggest miscarriages of justice I have ever seen.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The levees in New Orleans were not ever designed to make a Category 3 + storm survivable , and they 've always been in a TERRIBLE state of repair ( anyone who 's actually been the the area could tell you that water constantly seeped through them in several places ) .
New Orleans floods during normal rainstorms .
Anyone who thought they were safe there during a Hurricane does n't deserve any pity.Also , the money allocated to levee repair/upgrade was spent on things like off-ramps for casinos and such by the local levee boards .
This judge declaring the Corps .
to be responsible while ignoring the gross criminal negligence by state and local officials is one of the biggest miscarriages of justice I have ever seen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The levees in New Orleans were not ever designed to make a Category 3+ storm survivable, and they've always been in a TERRIBLE state of repair (anyone who's actually been the the area could tell you that water constantly seeped through them in several places).
New Orleans floods during normal rainstorms.
Anyone who thought they were safe there during a Hurricane doesn't deserve any pity.Also, the money allocated to levee repair/upgrade was spent on things like off-ramps for casinos and such by the local levee boards.
This judge declaring the Corps.
to be responsible while ignoring the gross criminal negligence by state and local officials is one of the biggest miscarriages of justice I have ever seen.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171274</id>
	<title>Re:Myopia and shortsightedness</title>
	<author>Sulphur</author>
	<datestamp>1258733520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Insouciance:  Not giving a dam?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Insouciance : Not giving a dam ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Insouciance:  Not giving a dam?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170372</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171364</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258734000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> What do you call it when people make themselves available for preventable disasters that are easy to foresee?</p> </div><p>I'd go with poor and unable to move away from their current location.  You can't assume that everyone who lives in New Orleans has chosen to live there.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What do you call it when people make themselves available for preventable disasters that are easy to foresee ?
I 'd go with poor and unable to move away from their current location .
You ca n't assume that everyone who lives in New Orleans has chosen to live there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> What do you call it when people make themselves available for preventable disasters that are easy to foresee?
I'd go with poor and unable to move away from their current location.
You can't assume that everyone who lives in New Orleans has chosen to live there.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170426</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30172272</id>
	<title>Re:This is total BS</title>
	<author>Mordac</author>
	<datestamp>1258737900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The same Army Crop of Engineers widened the channels that made this disaster occur. They are to blame from beginning to end, they are the most corrupt part of our government, taking handouts to do busy work, then throwing out all environment impact studies for a few dollar contribution from some happy developer.</p><p>They could have fixed it, but they preferred spending money on dredging yet another channel that no one actual would use. Bush doesn't need to be blamed for transferring money, the Corp does enough damage itself, but the agri subsidies it runs on its own corruption and no one wants to try and fix it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The same Army Crop of Engineers widened the channels that made this disaster occur .
They are to blame from beginning to end , they are the most corrupt part of our government , taking handouts to do busy work , then throwing out all environment impact studies for a few dollar contribution from some happy developer.They could have fixed it , but they preferred spending money on dredging yet another channel that no one actual would use .
Bush does n't need to be blamed for transferring money , the Corp does enough damage itself , but the agri subsidies it runs on its own corruption and no one wants to try and fix it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The same Army Crop of Engineers widened the channels that made this disaster occur.
They are to blame from beginning to end, they are the most corrupt part of our government, taking handouts to do busy work, then throwing out all environment impact studies for a few dollar contribution from some happy developer.They could have fixed it, but they preferred spending money on dredging yet another channel that no one actual would use.
Bush doesn't need to be blamed for transferring money, the Corp does enough damage itself, but the agri subsidies it runs on its own corruption and no one wants to try and fix it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170418</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30175402</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>jbengt</author>
	<datestamp>1258748400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You are all wrong.<br>
The one to blame is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.\_Baldwin\_Wood" title="wikipedia.org">A Baldwin Wood</a> [wikipedia.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>You are all wrong .
The one to blame is A Baldwin Wood [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are all wrong.
The one to blame is A Baldwin Wood [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171654</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30264714</id>
	<title>New Orleans was MURDERED</title>
	<author>Gentilly</author>
	<datestamp>1259498040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This city was murdered by its own politicians, the City Hall Gang, the "Laughing Murderers of City Hall".When the plans for those shallow, worthless floodwalls along the drainage canals were first proposed by the Corps of Engineers, the veteran engineers of the Sewage &amp; Water Board, who knew the soil conditions, objected.Then mayor "Slimy Sidney" Barthelemy PURGED them, replacing them with flunkies.These stooges later dredged the canals in such a way as to deliberately weaken the floodwalls further.Even the Corps got nervous now, and wanted to build gates at the mouths of the canals which could be closed to prevent flooding. It was the Sewage &amp; Water Board(IE. The City Hall Gang) that REFUSED to allow this to be done. Why pass up the graft from a federal project. Because the politicians knew that far richer pickings would come their way if the city was flooded by the next hurricane, GRAFT  from the BILLIONS in Federal "disaster relief",which has in fact virtually all gone into the pockets of the POLITICIANS, not their VICTIMS.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This city was murdered by its own politicians , the City Hall Gang , the " Laughing Murderers of City Hall " .When the plans for those shallow , worthless floodwalls along the drainage canals were first proposed by the Corps of Engineers , the veteran engineers of the Sewage &amp; Water Board , who knew the soil conditions , objected.Then mayor " Slimy Sidney " Barthelemy PURGED them , replacing them with flunkies.These stooges later dredged the canals in such a way as to deliberately weaken the floodwalls further.Even the Corps got nervous now , and wanted to build gates at the mouths of the canals which could be closed to prevent flooding .
It was the Sewage &amp; Water Board ( IE .
The City Hall Gang ) that REFUSED to allow this to be done .
Why pass up the graft from a federal project .
Because the politicians knew that far richer pickings would come their way if the city was flooded by the next hurricane , GRAFT from the BILLIONS in Federal " disaster relief " ,which has in fact virtually all gone into the pockets of the POLITICIANS , not their VICTIMS .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This city was murdered by its own politicians, the City Hall Gang, the "Laughing Murderers of City Hall".When the plans for those shallow, worthless floodwalls along the drainage canals were first proposed by the Corps of Engineers, the veteran engineers of the Sewage &amp; Water Board, who knew the soil conditions, objected.Then mayor "Slimy Sidney" Barthelemy PURGED them, replacing them with flunkies.These stooges later dredged the canals in such a way as to deliberately weaken the floodwalls further.Even the Corps got nervous now, and wanted to build gates at the mouths of the canals which could be closed to prevent flooding.
It was the Sewage &amp; Water Board(IE.
The City Hall Gang) that REFUSED to allow this to be done.
Why pass up the graft from a federal project.
Because the politicians knew that far richer pickings would come their way if the city was flooded by the next hurricane, GRAFT  from the BILLIONS in Federal "disaster relief",which has in fact virtually all gone into the pockets of the POLITICIANS, not their VICTIMS.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30174400</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258745220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This situation is analogous to going to the doctor.</p><p>The doctor says you need to quit smoking, lose weight, and lower your blood pressure or you're going to suffer from emphysema and in addition you'll either have a heart attack, or you'll stroke out, or maybe even both.</p><p>You hear the doctor out, then proceed to continue smoking three packs a day and eating nothing but Big Macs and buckets of KFC.  Eventually you have a heart attack and a stroke at the same time just as the doctor said might happen.  Not to mention the emphysema.  You're left wheezing, unable to walk and have a speech impediment.</p><p>You then sue the doctor who tells the judge that you were told to stop smoking, lose weight and reduce your blood pressure but that you didn't listen and didn't follow any of the doctor's recommendations.</p><p>The judge then asks you what you have to say about that.  You point at the doctor and gasp out "It's all his fault!"</p><p>And the judge believes you.</p><p>That's what this situation with the ACoE is analogous to.  New Orleans was warned.  New Orleans didn't listen.  New Orleans got roflstomped by Mother Nature.  New Orleans blames the ACoE.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This situation is analogous to going to the doctor.The doctor says you need to quit smoking , lose weight , and lower your blood pressure or you 're going to suffer from emphysema and in addition you 'll either have a heart attack , or you 'll stroke out , or maybe even both.You hear the doctor out , then proceed to continue smoking three packs a day and eating nothing but Big Macs and buckets of KFC .
Eventually you have a heart attack and a stroke at the same time just as the doctor said might happen .
Not to mention the emphysema .
You 're left wheezing , unable to walk and have a speech impediment.You then sue the doctor who tells the judge that you were told to stop smoking , lose weight and reduce your blood pressure but that you did n't listen and did n't follow any of the doctor 's recommendations.The judge then asks you what you have to say about that .
You point at the doctor and gasp out " It 's all his fault !
" And the judge believes you.That 's what this situation with the ACoE is analogous to .
New Orleans was warned .
New Orleans did n't listen .
New Orleans got roflstomped by Mother Nature .
New Orleans blames the ACoE .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This situation is analogous to going to the doctor.The doctor says you need to quit smoking, lose weight, and lower your blood pressure or you're going to suffer from emphysema and in addition you'll either have a heart attack, or you'll stroke out, or maybe even both.You hear the doctor out, then proceed to continue smoking three packs a day and eating nothing but Big Macs and buckets of KFC.
Eventually you have a heart attack and a stroke at the same time just as the doctor said might happen.
Not to mention the emphysema.
You're left wheezing, unable to walk and have a speech impediment.You then sue the doctor who tells the judge that you were told to stop smoking, lose weight and reduce your blood pressure but that you didn't listen and didn't follow any of the doctor's recommendations.The judge then asks you what you have to say about that.
You point at the doctor and gasp out "It's all his fault!
"And the judge believes you.That's what this situation with the ACoE is analogous to.
New Orleans was warned.
New Orleans didn't listen.
New Orleans got roflstomped by Mother Nature.
New Orleans blames the ACoE.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171552</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30172198</id>
	<title>Local man blames someone else</title>
	<author>DarthVain</author>
	<datestamp>1258737660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>News at 11.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>News at 11 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>News at 11.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171166</id>
	<title>so don't live in</title>
	<author>doginthewoods</author>
	<datestamp>1258732980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>any town on the MS river, CA for earthquakes, FL for hurricanes, the midwest for drought and tornadoes, the north for snow storms, etc.

Are you trying to show how little you know about why New Orleans flooded?
It was not Katrina, but the failure of the levees. And they failed because they were not maintained, and the reason they were nto maintianed is becasue Bush stole the money to pay for tax breaks for his rich friends.</htmltext>
<tokenext>any town on the MS river , CA for earthquakes , FL for hurricanes , the midwest for drought and tornadoes , the north for snow storms , etc .
Are you trying to show how little you know about why New Orleans flooded ?
It was not Katrina , but the failure of the levees .
And they failed because they were not maintained , and the reason they were nto maintianed is becasue Bush stole the money to pay for tax breaks for his rich friends .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>any town on the MS river, CA for earthquakes, FL for hurricanes, the midwest for drought and tornadoes, the north for snow storms, etc.
Are you trying to show how little you know about why New Orleans flooded?
It was not Katrina, but the failure of the levees.
And they failed because they were not maintained, and the reason they were nto maintianed is becasue Bush stole the money to pay for tax breaks for his rich friends.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170930</id>
	<title>Re:Predictable...</title>
	<author>lnlypaladin</author>
	<datestamp>1258731780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Let's be fair about where they built the city.  It was founded back in 1718.  They didn't really know much about weather patterns back then.  Not to mention that it was initially french, then went to the spanish after the seven years war (transition was from 1763 to 69), then became part of the United States through the Louisiana Purchase in 1803.</p><p>So where it's built is something we can blame the French for, we didn't get it until almost an entire century later.  The levees... well, they've been relying on the natural levees since the place was initially founded to avoid major catastrophes and problems with levees, both natural and otherwise, is nothing new for that city.  We are all aware of it now because of how horribly our emergency services responded to Katrina, which opened the door to the worst, which we all got to have spoon fed to us by our news media.</p><p>
Here's some history, btw: <a href="http://www.madere.com/history.html" title="madere.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.madere.com/history.html</a> [madere.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Let 's be fair about where they built the city .
It was founded back in 1718 .
They did n't really know much about weather patterns back then .
Not to mention that it was initially french , then went to the spanish after the seven years war ( transition was from 1763 to 69 ) , then became part of the United States through the Louisiana Purchase in 1803.So where it 's built is something we can blame the French for , we did n't get it until almost an entire century later .
The levees... well , they 've been relying on the natural levees since the place was initially founded to avoid major catastrophes and problems with levees , both natural and otherwise , is nothing new for that city .
We are all aware of it now because of how horribly our emergency services responded to Katrina , which opened the door to the worst , which we all got to have spoon fed to us by our news media .
Here 's some history , btw : http : //www.madere.com/history.html [ madere.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let's be fair about where they built the city.
It was founded back in 1718.
They didn't really know much about weather patterns back then.
Not to mention that it was initially french, then went to the spanish after the seven years war (transition was from 1763 to 69), then became part of the United States through the Louisiana Purchase in 1803.So where it's built is something we can blame the French for, we didn't get it until almost an entire century later.
The levees... well, they've been relying on the natural levees since the place was initially founded to avoid major catastrophes and problems with levees, both natural and otherwise, is nothing new for that city.
We are all aware of it now because of how horribly our emergency services responded to Katrina, which opened the door to the worst, which we all got to have spoon fed to us by our news media.
Here's some history, btw: http://www.madere.com/history.html [madere.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170420</id>
	<title>so federal funding got cut.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258728960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>If this was such a major concern for the state of Louisiana......................why didn't they just use state money?  This is a classic case of fingerpointing.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If this was such a major concern for the state of Louisiana......................why did n't they just use state money ?
This is a classic case of fingerpointing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If this was such a major concern for the state of Louisiana......................why didn't they just use state money?
This is a classic case of fingerpointing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_20_0742226_17</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30175402
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171654
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170426
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170122
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_20_0742226_24</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30175152
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170426
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170122
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_20_0742226_23</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30172272
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</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_20_0742226_14</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30172064
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171654
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170426
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170122
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_20_0742226_4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30174730
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170426
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154
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</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_20_0742226_42</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30172378
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170386
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_20_0742226_3</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30174208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171654
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170426
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170122
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_20_0742226_5</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30171364
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170426
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170154
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_20_0742226.30170122
</commentlist>
</thread>
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