<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_11_18_2331241</id>
	<title>Smart Grid Could Pose Threat To Privacy</title>
	<author>samzenpus</author>
	<datestamp>1258550760000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>Presto Vivace writes <i>"Brian Krebs of the <em>Washington Post</em> reports on a study jointly released Tuesday by the Ontario Information and Privacy Commissioner and the Future of Privacy Forum. It seems that in the process of collecting all that feedback about energy use, utility companies will inevitably <a href="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2009/11/experts\_smart\_grid\_poses\_priva.html">collect a great deal of information about us</a>. From the article: 'Instead of measuring energy use at the end of each billing period, smart meters will provide this information at much shorter intervals, the report notes. Even if electricity use is not recorded minute by minute, or at the appliance level, information may be gleaned from ongoing monitoring of electricity consumption such as the approximate number of occupants, when they are present, as well as when they are awake or asleep. For many, this will resonate as a "sanctity of the home" issue, where such intimate details of daily life should not be accessible.'"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>Presto Vivace writes " Brian Krebs of the Washington Post reports on a study jointly released Tuesday by the Ontario Information and Privacy Commissioner and the Future of Privacy Forum .
It seems that in the process of collecting all that feedback about energy use , utility companies will inevitably collect a great deal of information about us .
From the article : 'Instead of measuring energy use at the end of each billing period , smart meters will provide this information at much shorter intervals , the report notes .
Even if electricity use is not recorded minute by minute , or at the appliance level , information may be gleaned from ongoing monitoring of electricity consumption such as the approximate number of occupants , when they are present , as well as when they are awake or asleep .
For many , this will resonate as a " sanctity of the home " issue , where such intimate details of daily life should not be accessible .
' "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Presto Vivace writes "Brian Krebs of the Washington Post reports on a study jointly released Tuesday by the Ontario Information and Privacy Commissioner and the Future of Privacy Forum.
It seems that in the process of collecting all that feedback about energy use, utility companies will inevitably collect a great deal of information about us.
From the article: 'Instead of measuring energy use at the end of each billing period, smart meters will provide this information at much shorter intervals, the report notes.
Even if electricity use is not recorded minute by minute, or at the appliance level, information may be gleaned from ongoing monitoring of electricity consumption such as the approximate number of occupants, when they are present, as well as when they are awake or asleep.
For many, this will resonate as a "sanctity of the home" issue, where such intimate details of daily life should not be accessible.
'"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30156006</id>
	<title>One more good reason...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258645080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...for grid independence, household by household. Almost any normal residence can be fully supplied with electricity by a relatively small number of wind turbines and solar panels. And the efficiency of these devices is increasing every day. Screw the grid.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...for grid independence , household by household .
Almost any normal residence can be fully supplied with electricity by a relatively small number of wind turbines and solar panels .
And the efficiency of these devices is increasing every day .
Screw the grid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...for grid independence, household by household.
Almost any normal residence can be fully supplied with electricity by a relatively small number of wind turbines and solar panels.
And the efficiency of these devices is increasing every day.
Screw the grid.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152476</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257091020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Except the fourth amendment doesn't apply in Ontario.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Except the fourth amendment does n't apply in Ontario .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Except the fourth amendment doesn't apply in Ontario.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30164440</id>
	<title>Re:Oh bullshit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258628280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Just use an uninterrupted power supply system. It can be built to draw current only when the batteries are low, and that can be programmed in, so that the actual draw of electricity is orthogonal to the use of the electricity. Think kind of like a Prius.</i></p><p><i>bunch of arm-waving idiocy.</i> </p><p>The idiocy is all yours, child. Normal UPSes draw instantaneous load power constantly, not just when the power drops and the UPS battery is finally exhausted. Absent a power drop, the batteries simply stay charged and the load determines the current draw.</p><p>If you're thinking of an arrangement where the batteries have huge capacity which allows them to be fully charged, then to quit drawing power while supplying the load until they run low, I defy you to find such a commercially available unit outside of the submarine service.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just use an uninterrupted power supply system .
It can be built to draw current only when the batteries are low , and that can be programmed in , so that the actual draw of electricity is orthogonal to the use of the electricity .
Think kind of like a Prius.bunch of arm-waving idiocy .
The idiocy is all yours , child .
Normal UPSes draw instantaneous load power constantly , not just when the power drops and the UPS battery is finally exhausted .
Absent a power drop , the batteries simply stay charged and the load determines the current draw.If you 're thinking of an arrangement where the batteries have huge capacity which allows them to be fully charged , then to quit drawing power while supplying the load until they run low , I defy you to find such a commercially available unit outside of the submarine service .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just use an uninterrupted power supply system.
It can be built to draw current only when the batteries are low, and that can be programmed in, so that the actual draw of electricity is orthogonal to the use of the electricity.
Think kind of like a Prius.bunch of arm-waving idiocy.
The idiocy is all yours, child.
Normal UPSes draw instantaneous load power constantly, not just when the power drops and the UPS battery is finally exhausted.
Absent a power drop, the batteries simply stay charged and the load determines the current draw.If you're thinking of an arrangement where the batteries have huge capacity which allows them to be fully charged, then to quit drawing power while supplying the load until they run low, I defy you to find such a commercially available unit outside of the submarine service.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152234</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152984</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257096720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I use to keep saltwater reef aquariums. I even used "grow lights" over them. In the hobby we hear about people getting their doors kicked in at 6am on a Sunday from time to time... Seems a reef tank needs light 12 hours a day just like...</p><p>The story that you reference, I wonder if the cops kicked out all the drywall while they inspected. I've heard of that and there's no compensation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I use to keep saltwater reef aquariums .
I even used " grow lights " over them .
In the hobby we hear about people getting their doors kicked in at 6am on a Sunday from time to time... Seems a reef tank needs light 12 hours a day just like...The story that you reference , I wonder if the cops kicked out all the drywall while they inspected .
I 've heard of that and there 's no compensation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I use to keep saltwater reef aquariums.
I even used "grow lights" over them.
In the hobby we hear about people getting their doors kicked in at 6am on a Sunday from time to time... Seems a reef tank needs light 12 hours a day just like...The story that you reference, I wonder if the cops kicked out all the drywall while they inspected.
I've heard of that and there's no compensation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152236</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153618</id>
	<title>So you need the 'smart house'.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257105300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That instead of drawing power from the grid synchronously with its use, instead charges a bank of batteries (and, if they use the smart grid to charge different rates at peak vs off-peak, pick the time when its cheapest) and then uses the battery bank to supply power in real time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That instead of drawing power from the grid synchronously with its use , instead charges a bank of batteries ( and , if they use the smart grid to charge different rates at peak vs off-peak , pick the time when its cheapest ) and then uses the battery bank to supply power in real time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That instead of drawing power from the grid synchronously with its use, instead charges a bank of batteries (and, if they use the smart grid to charge different rates at peak vs off-peak, pick the time when its cheapest) and then uses the battery bank to supply power in real time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30159896</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Absolut187</author>
	<datestamp>1258657200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My question is, how are the cops getting people's electric bills in the first place without (A) subpoena the power company or (B) opening someone's mail without a warrant??</p><p>Don't the power companies have a duty to protect their consumers privacy???</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My question is , how are the cops getting people 's electric bills in the first place without ( A ) subpoena the power company or ( B ) opening someone 's mail without a warrant ?
? Do n't the power companies have a duty to protect their consumers privacy ? ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My question is, how are the cops getting people's electric bills in the first place without (A) subpoena the power company or (B) opening someone's mail without a warrant?
?Don't the power companies have a duty to protect their consumers privacy??
?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30158028</id>
	<title>Re:NEWSFLASH!</title>
	<author>Maxwell'sSilverLART</author>
	<datestamp>1258651500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I am willing to accept that trade-off, especially since 95\% of the privacy stories on YRO are overblown.</p></div><p>That's very gracious of you to accept it on my behalf.  And without even consulting me--what a time-saver!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am willing to accept that trade-off , especially since 95 \ % of the privacy stories on YRO are overblown.That 's very gracious of you to accept it on my behalf .
And without even consulting me--what a time-saver !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am willing to accept that trade-off, especially since 95\% of the privacy stories on YRO are overblown.That's very gracious of you to accept it on my behalf.
And without even consulting me--what a time-saver!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152052</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153280</id>
	<title>Not so simple...</title>
	<author>tjstork</author>
	<datestamp>1257100380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>PJM does this already,</p><p><a href="http://oasis.pjm.com/drate.html" title="pjm.com">http://oasis.pjm.com/drate.html</a> [pjm.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>PJM does this already,http : //oasis.pjm.com/drate.html [ pjm.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PJM does this already,http://oasis.pjm.com/drate.html [pjm.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152022</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30154148</id>
	<title>Re:Like your ISP, cell phone company, etc?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258626300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>There are already tons of service providers we use (bank, credit card, hospital, ISP, cable company, cell phone company, etc.) that have a similar or greater amount of data. How does this pose any new problems?</i> </p><p>Jesus, that old canard again. What a fucking loser you are.</p><p>It's called incrementalism. Once you've taken away enough rights, it's easy to convince people that taking away the rest is no big deal, as long as it's just a bit more each time.</p><p>Every goddamned example of this creep must be fought against from the very outset.</p><p>I guess you also subscribe to the theory that, once she's been dragged into the bushes, a woman should willingly take off her panties and just lay back and enjoy the rape.</p><p>Well, maybe after it happens to your daughter, you'll change your mind. Otherwise, just make sure she never leaves home without a blanket to make the rape more enjoyable.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are already tons of service providers we use ( bank , credit card , hospital , ISP , cable company , cell phone company , etc .
) that have a similar or greater amount of data .
How does this pose any new problems ?
Jesus , that old canard again .
What a fucking loser you are.It 's called incrementalism .
Once you 've taken away enough rights , it 's easy to convince people that taking away the rest is no big deal , as long as it 's just a bit more each time.Every goddamned example of this creep must be fought against from the very outset.I guess you also subscribe to the theory that , once she 's been dragged into the bushes , a woman should willingly take off her panties and just lay back and enjoy the rape.Well , maybe after it happens to your daughter , you 'll change your mind .
Otherwise , just make sure she never leaves home without a blanket to make the rape more enjoyable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are already tons of service providers we use (bank, credit card, hospital, ISP, cable company, cell phone company, etc.
) that have a similar or greater amount of data.
How does this pose any new problems?
Jesus, that old canard again.
What a fucking loser you are.It's called incrementalism.
Once you've taken away enough rights, it's easy to convince people that taking away the rest is no big deal, as long as it's just a bit more each time.Every goddamned example of this creep must be fought against from the very outset.I guess you also subscribe to the theory that, once she's been dragged into the bushes, a woman should willingly take off her panties and just lay back and enjoy the rape.Well, maybe after it happens to your daughter, you'll change your mind.
Otherwise, just make sure she never leaves home without a blanket to make the rape more enjoyable.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152460</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30157800</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Painted</author>
	<datestamp>1258650780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've heard this ridiculous claim that marijuana is "more potent" for years now- if it were getting that much more potent for 50 years, it'd be over 150\% THC by now!
<br> <br>
I think what has happened is that possibly it has been bred to have on average 1-5\% more THC overall, or they have realized that strain A generally produces more potent smoke than strain B, so it gets grown more often. But the major effect is that unlike the 1940's and 1950's, they don't take the entire plant, grind it up, and sell it all- now they harvest only the flowering buds, where the THC is concentrated, and you aren't getting the "filler" of branches, stems, fan leaves, etc.
<br> <br>
So the marijuana isn't really all that more potent, it's just that it's not "cut" with as much garbage as it used to be. This is a good thing, since it means that you'll actually smoke less for the same effect, thus minimizing side effects of the act of smoking.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've heard this ridiculous claim that marijuana is " more potent " for years now- if it were getting that much more potent for 50 years , it 'd be over 150 \ % THC by now !
I think what has happened is that possibly it has been bred to have on average 1-5 \ % more THC overall , or they have realized that strain A generally produces more potent smoke than strain B , so it gets grown more often .
But the major effect is that unlike the 1940 's and 1950 's , they do n't take the entire plant , grind it up , and sell it all- now they harvest only the flowering buds , where the THC is concentrated , and you are n't getting the " filler " of branches , stems , fan leaves , etc .
So the marijuana is n't really all that more potent , it 's just that it 's not " cut " with as much garbage as it used to be .
This is a good thing , since it means that you 'll actually smoke less for the same effect , thus minimizing side effects of the act of smoking .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've heard this ridiculous claim that marijuana is "more potent" for years now- if it were getting that much more potent for 50 years, it'd be over 150\% THC by now!
I think what has happened is that possibly it has been bred to have on average 1-5\% more THC overall, or they have realized that strain A generally produces more potent smoke than strain B, so it gets grown more often.
But the major effect is that unlike the 1940's and 1950's, they don't take the entire plant, grind it up, and sell it all- now they harvest only the flowering buds, where the THC is concentrated, and you aren't getting the "filler" of branches, stems, fan leaves, etc.
So the marijuana isn't really all that more potent, it's just that it's not "cut" with as much garbage as it used to be.
This is a good thing, since it means that you'll actually smoke less for the same effect, thus minimizing side effects of the act of smoking.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152930</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152642</id>
	<title>The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257092940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm in the midst of the smart grid, as a designer and a homeowner. I hate every part of it.</p><p>Automatic meter reading has been around for a while. It started with the Drive-by reads, where your meter was equipped with a small RF transmitter and a van was equipped with the receiver. Later, they used power-line communications that transmitted the data from the home to the substation, where the power company had its receiver hardware, and a telephone quality line to the utility. The down side to both methods is that it took almost a month to get every meter read, just in time to start again.<br>We have come a long ways since then, yet those initial technologies are still leading providers of Automatic Meter Reading (AMR). Some other providers came in with faster data rates, allowing for smart cap banks, integrated disconnects, demand billing, and outage detection. This created the AMI market (i = infrastrucure)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm in the midst of the smart grid , as a designer and a homeowner .
I hate every part of it.Automatic meter reading has been around for a while .
It started with the Drive-by reads , where your meter was equipped with a small RF transmitter and a van was equipped with the receiver .
Later , they used power-line communications that transmitted the data from the home to the substation , where the power company had its receiver hardware , and a telephone quality line to the utility .
The down side to both methods is that it took almost a month to get every meter read , just in time to start again.We have come a long ways since then , yet those initial technologies are still leading providers of Automatic Meter Reading ( AMR ) .
Some other providers came in with faster data rates , allowing for smart cap banks , integrated disconnects , demand billing , and outage detection .
This created the AMI market ( i = infrastrucure )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm in the midst of the smart grid, as a designer and a homeowner.
I hate every part of it.Automatic meter reading has been around for a while.
It started with the Drive-by reads, where your meter was equipped with a small RF transmitter and a van was equipped with the receiver.
Later, they used power-line communications that transmitted the data from the home to the substation, where the power company had its receiver hardware, and a telephone quality line to the utility.
The down side to both methods is that it took almost a month to get every meter read, just in time to start again.We have come a long ways since then, yet those initial technologies are still leading providers of Automatic Meter Reading (AMR).
Some other providers came in with faster data rates, allowing for smart cap banks, integrated disconnects, demand billing, and outage detection.
This created the AMI market (i = infrastrucure)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153200</id>
	<title>The same could be said...</title>
	<author>blahplusplus</author>
	<datestamp>1257099240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... about internet connections, everytime you visist a website you hit a bunch of ad and tracking servers, and most people do not have proper anti-information leaking programs on their systems.</p><p>You can gain the same information in a multitude of ways, privacy simply cannot survive onslaught of advancing technology where we want to use that technology to scientifically monitor everything possible to increase our understanding of complex systems.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... about internet connections , everytime you visist a website you hit a bunch of ad and tracking servers , and most people do not have proper anti-information leaking programs on their systems.You can gain the same information in a multitude of ways , privacy simply can not survive onslaught of advancing technology where we want to use that technology to scientifically monitor everything possible to increase our understanding of complex systems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... about internet connections, everytime you visist a website you hit a bunch of ad and tracking servers, and most people do not have proper anti-information leaking programs on their systems.You can gain the same information in a multitude of ways, privacy simply cannot survive onslaught of advancing technology where we want to use that technology to scientifically monitor everything possible to increase our understanding of complex systems.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152656</id>
	<title>"Smart grid" way, way too complicated.</title>
	<author>Animats</author>
	<datestamp>1257093000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
The whole "smart grid" thing is way too complicated.  All you really need are a few bits per minute broadcast from the power company, telling you how their <a href="http://www.caiso.com/" title="caiso.com">current load status.</a> [caiso.com]  A few more bits from your local electric meter about your own current load would be helpful.
Loads that draw more than about 300 watts and can run unattended needs to be receiving those bits, which in a home mostly means major appliances and HVAC.
</p><p>During periods of power scarcity, the power company can send out, in increasing order of need, requests to drop excess load, warnings that excess load will push your electric bill into extra high rate territory, and finally an order to drop below a given load or the electric meter will cut your power.  Or, at the other end of the scale, "power is really cheap right now, good time to charge electric cars, self-clean ovens, etc."
</p><p>
Businesses would probably sign up for demand pricing, where power during peak periods above some threshold is very
expensive, and would have their own local controller devoted to keeping the cost down by making freezer cabinet compressors take turns, cutting off some lighting, and such.  You can get that now; data transmission from the power company just means it has more info about the power supply situation.
</p><p>
Very little info needs to flow back from the meter to the utility.  A reading once an hour is sufficient, if not overkill.
</p><p>
We do <b>not</b> need something that gives every appliance an IPv6 address.
</p><p>
Unfortunately, there's a <a href="http://www.oe.energy.gov/DocumentsandMedia/NCEP\_Demand\_Response\_1208.pdf" title="energy.gov">pork-laden subsidy program for "smart metering"</a> [energy.gov] that encourages meters to talk too much.  This is becoming a boondoggle like ethanol.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The whole " smart grid " thing is way too complicated .
All you really need are a few bits per minute broadcast from the power company , telling you how their current load status .
[ caiso.com ] A few more bits from your local electric meter about your own current load would be helpful .
Loads that draw more than about 300 watts and can run unattended needs to be receiving those bits , which in a home mostly means major appliances and HVAC .
During periods of power scarcity , the power company can send out , in increasing order of need , requests to drop excess load , warnings that excess load will push your electric bill into extra high rate territory , and finally an order to drop below a given load or the electric meter will cut your power .
Or , at the other end of the scale , " power is really cheap right now , good time to charge electric cars , self-clean ovens , etc .
" Businesses would probably sign up for demand pricing , where power during peak periods above some threshold is very expensive , and would have their own local controller devoted to keeping the cost down by making freezer cabinet compressors take turns , cutting off some lighting , and such .
You can get that now ; data transmission from the power company just means it has more info about the power supply situation .
Very little info needs to flow back from the meter to the utility .
A reading once an hour is sufficient , if not overkill .
We do not need something that gives every appliance an IPv6 address .
Unfortunately , there 's a pork-laden subsidy program for " smart metering " [ energy.gov ] that encourages meters to talk too much .
This is becoming a boondoggle like ethanol .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
The whole "smart grid" thing is way too complicated.
All you really need are a few bits per minute broadcast from the power company, telling you how their current load status.
[caiso.com]  A few more bits from your local electric meter about your own current load would be helpful.
Loads that draw more than about 300 watts and can run unattended needs to be receiving those bits, which in a home mostly means major appliances and HVAC.
During periods of power scarcity, the power company can send out, in increasing order of need, requests to drop excess load, warnings that excess load will push your electric bill into extra high rate territory, and finally an order to drop below a given load or the electric meter will cut your power.
Or, at the other end of the scale, "power is really cheap right now, good time to charge electric cars, self-clean ovens, etc.
"

Businesses would probably sign up for demand pricing, where power during peak periods above some threshold is very
expensive, and would have their own local controller devoted to keeping the cost down by making freezer cabinet compressors take turns, cutting off some lighting, and such.
You can get that now; data transmission from the power company just means it has more info about the power supply situation.
Very little info needs to flow back from the meter to the utility.
A reading once an hour is sufficient, if not overkill.
We do not need something that gives every appliance an IPv6 address.
Unfortunately, there's a pork-laden subsidy program for "smart metering" [energy.gov] that encourages meters to talk too much.
This is becoming a boondoggle like ethanol.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152484</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>coolforsale112</author>
	<datestamp>1257091140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://www.coolforsale.com/" title="coolforsale.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.coolforsale.com/</a> [coolforsale.com]
Christmas is around the corner:  And old customers can also enjoy the gifts sent by my company in a can also request to our company.  Gifts lot,Buy more get the moreOnly this site have this treatmentOur goal is "Best quality, Best reputation , Best services". Your satisfaction is our main pursue. You can find the best products from us, meeting your different needs.
Ladies and Gentlemen  weicome  to  my  coolforsale.com.Here,there  are   the   most   fashion   products . Pass by but don't   miss  it.Select  your  favorite  clothing!  Welcome  to come  next   time ! Thank you!     <a href="http://www.coolforsale.com/productlist.asp?id=s76" title="coolforsale.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.coolforsale.com/productlist.asp?id=s76</a> [coolforsale.com] (Tracksuit w)
ugg boot,POLO hoody,Jacket,
Air jordan(1-24)shoes $33
Nike shox(R4,NZ,OZ,TL1,TL2,TL3) $35
Handbags(Coach lv fendi d&amp;g) $35
Tshirts (Polo<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,ed hardy,lacoste) $16
free shipping
competitive price
any size available
accept the paypal
Thanks</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.coolforsale.com/ [ coolforsale.com ] Christmas is around the corner : And old customers can also enjoy the gifts sent by my company in a can also request to our company .
Gifts lot,Buy more get the moreOnly this site have this treatmentOur goal is " Best quality , Best reputation , Best services " .
Your satisfaction is our main pursue .
You can find the best products from us , meeting your different needs .
Ladies and Gentlemen weicome to my coolforsale.com.Here,there are the most fashion products .
Pass by but do n't miss it.Select your favorite clothing !
Welcome to come next time !
Thank you !
http : //www.coolforsale.com/productlist.asp ? id = s76 [ coolforsale.com ] ( Tracksuit w ) ugg boot,POLO hoody,Jacket , Air jordan ( 1-24 ) shoes $ 33 Nike shox ( R4,NZ,OZ,TL1,TL2,TL3 ) $ 35 Handbags ( Coach lv fendi d&amp;g ) $ 35 Tshirts ( Polo ,ed hardy,lacoste ) $ 16 free shipping competitive price any size available accept the paypal Thanks</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.coolforsale.com/ [coolforsale.com]
Christmas is around the corner:  And old customers can also enjoy the gifts sent by my company in a can also request to our company.
Gifts lot,Buy more get the moreOnly this site have this treatmentOur goal is "Best quality, Best reputation , Best services".
Your satisfaction is our main pursue.
You can find the best products from us, meeting your different needs.
Ladies and Gentlemen  weicome  to  my  coolforsale.com.Here,there  are   the   most   fashion   products .
Pass by but don't   miss  it.Select  your  favorite  clothing!
Welcome  to come  next   time !
Thank you!
http://www.coolforsale.com/productlist.asp?id=s76 [coolforsale.com] (Tracksuit w)
ugg boot,POLO hoody,Jacket,
Air jordan(1-24)shoes $33
Nike shox(R4,NZ,OZ,TL1,TL2,TL3) $35
Handbags(Coach lv fendi d&amp;g) $35
Tshirts (Polo ,ed hardy,lacoste) $16
free shipping
competitive price
any size available
accept the paypal
Thanks</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153336</id>
	<title>What's the real use of smart meters?</title>
	<author>guruevi</author>
	<datestamp>1257101040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here are some possible positives:</p><p>The energy company doesn't have to come out and read the meter. Great, saves them a few jobs, gets some people unemployed. But you don't need a continuous monitoring of the meter for that. Just a once-a-month dial-in at the end of the month (every other month in my area) from the device to the company. There is no need to require traffic the other way around.</p><p>The energy company can tell your house when it is a good time to use a lot of power (eg. dishwashers etc.). Again, a single command from the utility company to the meters to switch and enable specific meters. European countries have done it for years without the need of a full two-way communication grid. It works similar to an X10 signal, in the 0-cross some digital data is inserted that switched between 2 electricity meters. The end user will want to decide anyway whether or not they want to use a heavy device in the middle of a peak period so it's not really a good idea to turn on/off specific outlets because people are stupid and will find a way to abuse it and if they're smart enough, sue for money (hang an old person that needs an oxygen tank to that outlet that gets switched off in the morning).</p><p>The energy company wants to turn off your electricity remotely. That might require some more authentication to prevent abuse but as soon as something goes systematically wrong with it (wrong house id gets sent through or any random issue that spring up with these types of companies and their software) things are going to get ugly and the government as well as the end-user will require somebody to physically disconnect the system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here are some possible positives : The energy company does n't have to come out and read the meter .
Great , saves them a few jobs , gets some people unemployed .
But you do n't need a continuous monitoring of the meter for that .
Just a once-a-month dial-in at the end of the month ( every other month in my area ) from the device to the company .
There is no need to require traffic the other way around.The energy company can tell your house when it is a good time to use a lot of power ( eg .
dishwashers etc. ) .
Again , a single command from the utility company to the meters to switch and enable specific meters .
European countries have done it for years without the need of a full two-way communication grid .
It works similar to an X10 signal , in the 0-cross some digital data is inserted that switched between 2 electricity meters .
The end user will want to decide anyway whether or not they want to use a heavy device in the middle of a peak period so it 's not really a good idea to turn on/off specific outlets because people are stupid and will find a way to abuse it and if they 're smart enough , sue for money ( hang an old person that needs an oxygen tank to that outlet that gets switched off in the morning ) .The energy company wants to turn off your electricity remotely .
That might require some more authentication to prevent abuse but as soon as something goes systematically wrong with it ( wrong house id gets sent through or any random issue that spring up with these types of companies and their software ) things are going to get ugly and the government as well as the end-user will require somebody to physically disconnect the system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here are some possible positives:The energy company doesn't have to come out and read the meter.
Great, saves them a few jobs, gets some people unemployed.
But you don't need a continuous monitoring of the meter for that.
Just a once-a-month dial-in at the end of the month (every other month in my area) from the device to the company.
There is no need to require traffic the other way around.The energy company can tell your house when it is a good time to use a lot of power (eg.
dishwashers etc.).
Again, a single command from the utility company to the meters to switch and enable specific meters.
European countries have done it for years without the need of a full two-way communication grid.
It works similar to an X10 signal, in the 0-cross some digital data is inserted that switched between 2 electricity meters.
The end user will want to decide anyway whether or not they want to use a heavy device in the middle of a peak period so it's not really a good idea to turn on/off specific outlets because people are stupid and will find a way to abuse it and if they're smart enough, sue for money (hang an old person that needs an oxygen tank to that outlet that gets switched off in the morning).The energy company wants to turn off your electricity remotely.
That might require some more authentication to prevent abuse but as soon as something goes systematically wrong with it (wrong house id gets sent through or any random issue that spring up with these types of companies and their software) things are going to get ugly and the government as well as the end-user will require somebody to physically disconnect the system.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30155654</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>yamfry</author>
	<datestamp>1258643520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Currently, coming up with a dangerous combination of caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol is not easy. Add THC into the mix and if one uses it carelessly with alcohol, it is a recipe for death from the synergistic effects of the two chemicals or for extremely impaired driving.</p></div></blockquote><p>
[citation needed]</p><blockquote><div><p>It also doesn't help that long term abuse of THC can cause psychosis.</p></div></blockquote><p>
[citation needed]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Currently , coming up with a dangerous combination of caffeine , nicotine , and alcohol is not easy .
Add THC into the mix and if one uses it carelessly with alcohol , it is a recipe for death from the synergistic effects of the two chemicals or for extremely impaired driving .
[ citation needed ] It also does n't help that long term abuse of THC can cause psychosis .
[ citation needed ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Currently, coming up with a dangerous combination of caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol is not easy.
Add THC into the mix and if one uses it carelessly with alcohol, it is a recipe for death from the synergistic effects of the two chemicals or for extremely impaired driving.
[citation needed]It also doesn't help that long term abuse of THC can cause psychosis.
[citation needed]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152930</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152460</id>
	<title>Like your ISP, cell phone company, etc?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257090840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are already tons of service providers we use (bank, credit card, hospital, ISP, cable company, cell phone company, etc.) that have a similar or greater amount of data. How does this pose any new problems?</p><p>I'd certainly like to see more clearly defined legal standards for how this kind of data may be used, but I'd assume that the tangled mess we have now would apply to the data that the power companies gather as well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are already tons of service providers we use ( bank , credit card , hospital , ISP , cable company , cell phone company , etc .
) that have a similar or greater amount of data .
How does this pose any new problems ? I 'd certainly like to see more clearly defined legal standards for how this kind of data may be used , but I 'd assume that the tangled mess we have now would apply to the data that the power companies gather as well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are already tons of service providers we use (bank, credit card, hospital, ISP, cable company, cell phone company, etc.
) that have a similar or greater amount of data.
How does this pose any new problems?I'd certainly like to see more clearly defined legal standards for how this kind of data may be used, but I'd assume that the tangled mess we have now would apply to the data that the power companies gather as well.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30157356</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>jimbolauski</author>
	<datestamp>1258649460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No because the cops will simply ask for the data from the electric companies and the companies will voluntarily give them the data.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No because the cops will simply ask for the data from the electric companies and the companies will voluntarily give them the data .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No because the cops will simply ask for the data from the electric companies and the companies will voluntarily give them the data.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151914</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Tynin</author>
	<datestamp>1257086760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't think anyone would be subject to a search warrant over electrical usage (I'd like to hope). You'd never be able to tell if someone was using a kilo watt of power to run grow lights, or to power and run a heat element on an electric oven range. I guess that is a bad example since the oven would only be on for a little bit whereas the lights would be always on, but the same principle applies. You'd have so much noise with various things plugged in using in some cases fluctuating amounts of power, it would be hard to get much of a signal that would conclusively point to some illegal activity. I really don't think Kyllo vs US is a good reference in this case, although they do have some overlap.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't think anyone would be subject to a search warrant over electrical usage ( I 'd like to hope ) .
You 'd never be able to tell if someone was using a kilo watt of power to run grow lights , or to power and run a heat element on an electric oven range .
I guess that is a bad example since the oven would only be on for a little bit whereas the lights would be always on , but the same principle applies .
You 'd have so much noise with various things plugged in using in some cases fluctuating amounts of power , it would be hard to get much of a signal that would conclusively point to some illegal activity .
I really do n't think Kyllo vs US is a good reference in this case , although they do have some overlap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't think anyone would be subject to a search warrant over electrical usage (I'd like to hope).
You'd never be able to tell if someone was using a kilo watt of power to run grow lights, or to power and run a heat element on an electric oven range.
I guess that is a bad example since the oven would only be on for a little bit whereas the lights would be always on, but the same principle applies.
You'd have so much noise with various things plugged in using in some cases fluctuating amounts of power, it would be hard to get much of a signal that would conclusively point to some illegal activity.
I really don't think Kyllo vs US is a good reference in this case, although they do have some overlap.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153368</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>bjamesv</author>
	<datestamp>1257101460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ah, but parent was referring to warrantless monitoring of hourly electricity usage.
<p>
more on topic however is the fact that the power company is the one watching, not the police.
</p><p>
they're not exactly like a phone company though, since in most areas in the US there is only a single, quasi-chartered, heavily regulated utility entity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ah , but parent was referring to warrantless monitoring of hourly electricity usage .
more on topic however is the fact that the power company is the one watching , not the police .
they 're not exactly like a phone company though , since in most areas in the US there is only a single , quasi-chartered , heavily regulated utility entity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ah, but parent was referring to warrantless monitoring of hourly electricity usage.
more on topic however is the fact that the power company is the one watching, not the police.
they're not exactly like a phone company though, since in most areas in the US there is only a single, quasi-chartered, heavily regulated utility entity.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153606</id>
	<title>Pot Is Green</title>
	<author>hyades1</author>
	<datestamp>1257105120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>  So let's see if I've got this straight:  pot stays illegal, which means it's very profitable to grow it and sell it.  So that would justify the cost of installing expensive off-the-grid tech such as solar panels, heat pumps, etc.  And the cost of some kind of storage for all that power. </p><p> Can anybody doubt that, even as we speak, some clever little bugger is writing software that will provide the "smart meter" with a generic family profile while the illegal stuff bleeds a bit of power off the grid and a lot from the Grey Cup". </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So let 's see if I 've got this straight : pot stays illegal , which means it 's very profitable to grow it and sell it .
So that would justify the cost of installing expensive off-the-grid tech such as solar panels , heat pumps , etc .
And the cost of some kind of storage for all that power .
Can anybody doubt that , even as we speak , some clever little bugger is writing software that will provide the " smart meter " with a generic family profile while the illegal stuff bleeds a bit of power off the grid and a lot from the Grey Cup " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>  So let's see if I've got this straight:  pot stays illegal, which means it's very profitable to grow it and sell it.
So that would justify the cost of installing expensive off-the-grid tech such as solar panels, heat pumps, etc.
And the cost of some kind of storage for all that power.
Can anybody doubt that, even as we speak, some clever little bugger is writing software that will provide the "smart meter" with a generic family profile while the illegal stuff bleeds a bit of power off the grid and a lot from the Grey Cup". </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152864</id>
	<title>Engage Stealth Mode</title>
	<author>Anonymous Struct</author>
	<datestamp>1257095220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Open freezer door, insert hair drier.</p><p>Figure THAT one out, you communist Progress Energy bastards!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Open freezer door , insert hair drier.Figure THAT one out , you communist Progress Energy bastards !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Open freezer door, insert hair drier.Figure THAT one out, you communist Progress Energy bastards!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30157434</id>
	<title>Jeez</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1258649760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are buying electricity, it's not private. DOn't lie it? Make your own electricity.</p><p>It's like saying McDonalds tracking you buying a soda from them is someone a loss of privacy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are buying electricity , it 's not private .
DO n't lie it ?
Make your own electricity.It 's like saying McDonalds tracking you buying a soda from them is someone a loss of privacy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are buying electricity, it's not private.
DOn't lie it?
Make your own electricity.It's like saying McDonalds tracking you buying a soda from them is someone a loss of privacy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152252</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>RiotingPacifist</author>
	<datestamp>1257088980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's the right way to deal with this, technical measures are pointless because the police will always be able to get that info (with current tech 3 40w bulbs give a noticeably different pastern), making it useless without a warrant is what's key, some sort of guaranteed anonymization of the data would be nice too (because while the electricity company need long term statistics so they can shame their supply to demand, they don't need YOUR long term stats).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's the right way to deal with this , technical measures are pointless because the police will always be able to get that info ( with current tech 3 40w bulbs give a noticeably different pastern ) , making it useless without a warrant is what 's key , some sort of guaranteed anonymization of the data would be nice too ( because while the electricity company need long term statistics so they can shame their supply to demand , they do n't need YOUR long term stats ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's the right way to deal with this, technical measures are pointless because the police will always be able to get that info (with current tech 3 40w bulbs give a noticeably different pastern), making it useless without a warrant is what's key, some sort of guaranteed anonymization of the data would be nice too (because while the electricity company need long term statistics so they can shame their supply to demand, they don't need YOUR long term stats).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30163342</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Darinbob</author>
	<datestamp>1258625040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>And it will still require electricity for the lights, lots of them, and people will still want to get that electricity cheap.  If marijuana is legalized overnight, the big growers won't suddenly become more moral and law abiding people overnight.</htmltext>
<tokenext>And it will still require electricity for the lights , lots of them , and people will still want to get that electricity cheap .
If marijuana is legalized overnight , the big growers wo n't suddenly become more moral and law abiding people overnight .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And it will still require electricity for the lights, lots of them, and people will still want to get that electricity cheap.
If marijuana is legalized overnight, the big growers won't suddenly become more moral and law abiding people overnight.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152406</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151792</id>
	<title>That's why I leave everything on all the time</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257085860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It'll mask my activities!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 'll mask my activities !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It'll mask my activities!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152978</id>
	<title>Interesting...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257096600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So if you want to see some interesting graphs of power measurement, check out the data I'm recording for the supercomputing 2009 conference<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. http://measurement.sc09.org/sustainability/</p><p>-- Troy Benjegerdes, hozer@hozed.org  http://grid.coop</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So if you want to see some interesting graphs of power measurement , check out the data I 'm recording for the supercomputing 2009 conference .. http : //measurement.sc09.org/sustainability/-- Troy Benjegerdes , hozer @ hozed.org http : //grid.coop</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So if you want to see some interesting graphs of power measurement, check out the data I'm recording for the supercomputing 2009 conference .. http://measurement.sc09.org/sustainability/-- Troy Benjegerdes, hozer@hozed.org  http://grid.coop</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153158</id>
	<title>Re:Making use of public electric use data</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257098760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>APS is a perfect example of a utility publishing personal electricity comsumptions:</p><p>http://www.aps.com/customer/addresssearch.asp</p><p>But the Smart Grid designed by the  NIST and funded by  EoD<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. and given the Government's current sensitivity about privacy and constitutional rights... there is no reason for ANY RATIONAL human to believe that the information will not be used against an individual or wll be use to trigger more investigation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>APS is a perfect example of a utility publishing personal electricity comsumptions : http : //www.aps.com/customer/addresssearch.aspBut the Smart Grid designed by the NIST and funded by EoD .. and given the Government 's current sensitivity about privacy and constitutional rights... there is no reason for ANY RATIONAL human to believe that the information will not be used against an individual or wll be use to trigger more investigation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>APS is a perfect example of a utility publishing personal electricity comsumptions:http://www.aps.com/customer/addresssearch.aspBut the Smart Grid designed by the  NIST and funded by  EoD .. and given the Government's current sensitivity about privacy and constitutional rights... there is no reason for ANY RATIONAL human to believe that the information will not be used against an individual or wll be use to trigger more investigation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152174</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152032</id>
	<title>That's why...</title>
	<author>Jason Pollock</author>
	<datestamp>1257087540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I run my house off of batteries and charge them using off-peak, cheap power.</p><p>Oh wait, my usage pattern indicates I've got some large, expensive batteries!</p><p>Back to the drawing board.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I run my house off of batteries and charge them using off-peak , cheap power.Oh wait , my usage pattern indicates I 've got some large , expensive batteries ! Back to the drawing board .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I run my house off of batteries and charge them using off-peak, cheap power.Oh wait, my usage pattern indicates I've got some large, expensive batteries!Back to the drawing board.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30164044</id>
	<title>Re:My CA townhouse got "smartmetered" last week.</title>
	<author>Darinbob</author>
	<datestamp>1258627080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The I-210 isn't a very sophisticated meter.  There are smarter ones that can handle backfeeding properly.  If you've got solar panels or other power generation methods, check with PG&amp;E and see if they have a smarter meter they can install instead.  Or should the more expensive models be put on every single home, just because a tiny minority have solar?<br><br>I'd like to see some of these hackers who can break into them.  I have to resort to JTAG once security is turned on.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The I-210 is n't a very sophisticated meter .
There are smarter ones that can handle backfeeding properly .
If you 've got solar panels or other power generation methods , check with PG&amp;E and see if they have a smarter meter they can install instead .
Or should the more expensive models be put on every single home , just because a tiny minority have solar ? I 'd like to see some of these hackers who can break into them .
I have to resort to JTAG once security is turned on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The I-210 isn't a very sophisticated meter.
There are smarter ones that can handle backfeeding properly.
If you've got solar panels or other power generation methods, check with PG&amp;E and see if they have a smarter meter they can install instead.
Or should the more expensive models be put on every single home, just because a tiny minority have solar?I'd like to see some of these hackers who can break into them.
I have to resort to JTAG once security is turned on.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152136</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152752</id>
	<title>Re:NEWSFLASH!</title>
	<author>Mr\_Plattz</author>
	<datestamp>1257093960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't think the problem here is the ELECTRICITY COMPANY knowing when you "leave in the morning and get home at night".
<br> <br>
I think Token Criminal who is working with some hackers in Russia gaining access to these INTERNET CONNECTED Smart Grids is the real problem.
<br> <br>
It's easy to accept "trade-offs" when you don't understand an entire scenario.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't think the problem here is the ELECTRICITY COMPANY knowing when you " leave in the morning and get home at night " .
I think Token Criminal who is working with some hackers in Russia gaining access to these INTERNET CONNECTED Smart Grids is the real problem .
It 's easy to accept " trade-offs " when you do n't understand an entire scenario .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't think the problem here is the ELECTRICITY COMPANY knowing when you "leave in the morning and get home at night".
I think Token Criminal who is working with some hackers in Russia gaining access to these INTERNET CONNECTED Smart Grids is the real problem.
It's easy to accept "trade-offs" when you don't understand an entire scenario.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152052</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152930</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257095760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are still people making moonshine, illegally, these days.  However, I don't think that the marijuana plant after it has been bred to contain more THC is very "natural" any longer.  Currently, coming up with a dangerous combination of caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol is not easy.  Add THC into the mix and if one uses it carelessly with alcohol, it is a recipe for death from the synergistic effects of the two chemicals or for extremely impaired driving.  It also doesn't help that long term abuse of THC can cause psychosis.  Both of these outcomes are good reasons why marijuana should not ever be legal.  There are probably prescription drugs with fewer side effects and interactions than THC that would be less harmful if legalized.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are still people making moonshine , illegally , these days .
However , I do n't think that the marijuana plant after it has been bred to contain more THC is very " natural " any longer .
Currently , coming up with a dangerous combination of caffeine , nicotine , and alcohol is not easy .
Add THC into the mix and if one uses it carelessly with alcohol , it is a recipe for death from the synergistic effects of the two chemicals or for extremely impaired driving .
It also does n't help that long term abuse of THC can cause psychosis .
Both of these outcomes are good reasons why marijuana should not ever be legal .
There are probably prescription drugs with fewer side effects and interactions than THC that would be less harmful if legalized .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are still people making moonshine, illegally, these days.
However, I don't think that the marijuana plant after it has been bred to contain more THC is very "natural" any longer.
Currently, coming up with a dangerous combination of caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol is not easy.
Add THC into the mix and if one uses it carelessly with alcohol, it is a recipe for death from the synergistic effects of the two chemicals or for extremely impaired driving.
It also doesn't help that long term abuse of THC can cause psychosis.
Both of these outcomes are good reasons why marijuana should not ever be legal.
There are probably prescription drugs with fewer side effects and interactions than THC that would be less harmful if legalized.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152406</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152658</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>jasonwc</author>
	<datestamp>1257093060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well, the problem is that the 4th Amendment doesn't apply at all in this situation. There is no state action. The 4th Amendment protects against encroachment by the federal government, and by incorporation via the 14th Amendment, also provides protection against state and local government actions.<br><br>However, the conduct here is being done by a private entity. In addition, they will almost certainly have consent to collect the information as part of the long form contracts you're required to sign to use their service. While the contracts can be attacked on grounds of adhesiveness and unfair surprise, the 4th Amendment simply does not apply.<br><br>The information is not being collected by the police for the purposes of an adversarial proceeding. If the police were collecting this information without your consent, there might be an issue. That's not to say federal or state privacy laws may not be applicable. However, the 4th Amendment certainly is not.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , the problem is that the 4th Amendment does n't apply at all in this situation .
There is no state action .
The 4th Amendment protects against encroachment by the federal government , and by incorporation via the 14th Amendment , also provides protection against state and local government actions.However , the conduct here is being done by a private entity .
In addition , they will almost certainly have consent to collect the information as part of the long form contracts you 're required to sign to use their service .
While the contracts can be attacked on grounds of adhesiveness and unfair surprise , the 4th Amendment simply does not apply.The information is not being collected by the police for the purposes of an adversarial proceeding .
If the police were collecting this information without your consent , there might be an issue .
That 's not to say federal or state privacy laws may not be applicable .
However , the 4th Amendment certainly is not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, the problem is that the 4th Amendment doesn't apply at all in this situation.
There is no state action.
The 4th Amendment protects against encroachment by the federal government, and by incorporation via the 14th Amendment, also provides protection against state and local government actions.However, the conduct here is being done by a private entity.
In addition, they will almost certainly have consent to collect the information as part of the long form contracts you're required to sign to use their service.
While the contracts can be attacked on grounds of adhesiveness and unfair surprise, the 4th Amendment simply does not apply.The information is not being collected by the police for the purposes of an adversarial proceeding.
If the police were collecting this information without your consent, there might be an issue.
That's not to say federal or state privacy laws may not be applicable.
However, the 4th Amendment certainly is not.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30159056</id>
	<title>Re:It's gonna be a while.</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1258654560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>The problem at the residential level is that other than the electric cars that nobody wants</i></p><p>It isn't that we don't want electric cars, it's that at the present they're WAY too damned expensive.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem at the residential level is that other than the electric cars that nobody wantsIt is n't that we do n't want electric cars , it 's that at the present they 're WAY too damned expensive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem at the residential level is that other than the electric cars that nobody wantsIt isn't that we don't want electric cars, it's that at the present they're WAY too damned expensive.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152222</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30157512</id>
	<title>invalid warrant</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258650000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>the smokinggun-linked warrant is obviously invalid. on the 2nd page, where the ossifer states his qualifications, there is a missing comma:</p><p>"...i am familiar with the manner in which controlled substances, including marijuana are produced,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..."</p><p>this should never have passed due to this defect...that's why we need legal compilers;-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>the smokinggun-linked warrant is obviously invalid .
on the 2nd page , where the ossifer states his qualifications , there is a missing comma : " ...i am familiar with the manner in which controlled substances , including marijuana are produced , ... " this should never have passed due to this defect...that 's why we need legal compilers ; - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the smokinggun-linked warrant is obviously invalid.
on the 2nd page, where the ossifer states his qualifications, there is a missing comma:"...i am familiar with the manner in which controlled substances, including marijuana are produced, ..."this should never have passed due to this defect...that's why we need legal compilers;-)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152920</id>
	<title>Re:It's also a keylogger!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257095640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I hate to break it to you, but this thing can know everything you type on your computer, assuming it is plugged in.  Surely you haven't forgotten about the keylogger over power lines thing from a while back?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I hate to break it to you , but this thing can know everything you type on your computer , assuming it is plugged in .
Surely you have n't forgotten about the keylogger over power lines thing from a while back ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hate to break it to you, but this thing can know everything you type on your computer, assuming it is plugged in.
Surely you haven't forgotten about the keylogger over power lines thing from a while back?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152052</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152260</id>
	<title>No worries</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257089040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The really personal stuff runs on batteries.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The really personal stuff runs on batteries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The really personal stuff runs on batteries.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152662</id>
	<title>Blur tool</title>
	<author>mattr</author>
	<datestamp>1257093120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>IANAEE but it seems strange there is no home battery that would blur usage, rather energy spikes are passed to the grid.<br>Put another way, what happens when lightning strikes? Is there a spike passed back?</p><p>A home ought to be able to hide usage of a kettle by drawing from a secondary battery which fills up gradually from the grid, my understanding is that in fact this should be happening and the battery works at night when power is cheaper.</p><p>Must the smart grid operate at high resolution to be efficient? Most high energy usages by homes would be happening at the same time of day I'd imagine. More danger would come I expect from being able to detect when a home is unoccupied.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>IANAEE but it seems strange there is no home battery that would blur usage , rather energy spikes are passed to the grid.Put another way , what happens when lightning strikes ?
Is there a spike passed back ? A home ought to be able to hide usage of a kettle by drawing from a secondary battery which fills up gradually from the grid , my understanding is that in fact this should be happening and the battery works at night when power is cheaper.Must the smart grid operate at high resolution to be efficient ?
Most high energy usages by homes would be happening at the same time of day I 'd imagine .
More danger would come I expect from being able to detect when a home is unoccupied .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IANAEE but it seems strange there is no home battery that would blur usage, rather energy spikes are passed to the grid.Put another way, what happens when lightning strikes?
Is there a spike passed back?A home ought to be able to hide usage of a kettle by drawing from a secondary battery which fills up gradually from the grid, my understanding is that in fact this should be happening and the battery works at night when power is cheaper.Must the smart grid operate at high resolution to be efficient?
Most high energy usages by homes would be happening at the same time of day I'd imagine.
More danger would come I expect from being able to detect when a home is unoccupied.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30155520</id>
	<title>Your privacy is already gone.</title>
	<author>thesandtiger</author>
	<datestamp>1258642800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Privacy is already gone for the vast majority of people on the planet. The best anyone can hope for now is anonymity.</p><p>5, 10, 15 years from now, you'll be able to snap a picture of someone, upload it to Google Faces, and get back every single picture of that person on the internet. Some enterprising person will write a bit of software that reads the tags and connects them to public information sources about the person. There will probably be software that snatches up tons of publicly available writing samples of the person and compares it to a "signature" that has a reasonable degree of accuracy in figuring out who that person is. There will be other tools that let anyone do some basic snooping through archives to find other references to that person from other sources (like a Google stalk, but a bit more in-depth and the tool will tell clueless people how to be more efficient in tracking someone). If the footage from surveillance systems ever becomes public, you can bet that someone will figure out how to track an individual's movements. It will, in short, be trivial to get a work-up on people that's about as complete as you can imagine any private investigator, but you'll be able to do it on the fly, from home.</p><p>Our privacy is already gone, most of us just don't know it yet. The best that we can do is to make as sure as possible that all this surveillance data that is being collected becomes part of the public domain which will ironically help limit abuse.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Privacy is already gone for the vast majority of people on the planet .
The best anyone can hope for now is anonymity.5 , 10 , 15 years from now , you 'll be able to snap a picture of someone , upload it to Google Faces , and get back every single picture of that person on the internet .
Some enterprising person will write a bit of software that reads the tags and connects them to public information sources about the person .
There will probably be software that snatches up tons of publicly available writing samples of the person and compares it to a " signature " that has a reasonable degree of accuracy in figuring out who that person is .
There will be other tools that let anyone do some basic snooping through archives to find other references to that person from other sources ( like a Google stalk , but a bit more in-depth and the tool will tell clueless people how to be more efficient in tracking someone ) .
If the footage from surveillance systems ever becomes public , you can bet that someone will figure out how to track an individual 's movements .
It will , in short , be trivial to get a work-up on people that 's about as complete as you can imagine any private investigator , but you 'll be able to do it on the fly , from home.Our privacy is already gone , most of us just do n't know it yet .
The best that we can do is to make as sure as possible that all this surveillance data that is being collected becomes part of the public domain which will ironically help limit abuse .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Privacy is already gone for the vast majority of people on the planet.
The best anyone can hope for now is anonymity.5, 10, 15 years from now, you'll be able to snap a picture of someone, upload it to Google Faces, and get back every single picture of that person on the internet.
Some enterprising person will write a bit of software that reads the tags and connects them to public information sources about the person.
There will probably be software that snatches up tons of publicly available writing samples of the person and compares it to a "signature" that has a reasonable degree of accuracy in figuring out who that person is.
There will be other tools that let anyone do some basic snooping through archives to find other references to that person from other sources (like a Google stalk, but a bit more in-depth and the tool will tell clueless people how to be more efficient in tracking someone).
If the footage from surveillance systems ever becomes public, you can bet that someone will figure out how to track an individual's movements.
It will, in short, be trivial to get a work-up on people that's about as complete as you can imagine any private investigator, but you'll be able to do it on the fly, from home.Our privacy is already gone, most of us just don't know it yet.
The best that we can do is to make as sure as possible that all this surveillance data that is being collected becomes part of the public domain which will ironically help limit abuse.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30154506</id>
	<title>Solution...</title>
	<author>ArsenneLupin</author>
	<datestamp>1258632120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>... battery-powered vibrators?</htmltext>
<tokenext>... battery-powered vibrators ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... battery-powered vibrators?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152690</id>
	<title>Re:Oh bullshit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257093360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So go from A/C -&gt; D/C -&gt; A/C again just to avoid snooping.  Any ideas on the loss for those conversions?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So go from A/C - &gt; D/C - &gt; A/C again just to avoid snooping .
Any ideas on the loss for those conversions ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So go from A/C -&gt; D/C -&gt; A/C again just to avoid snooping.
Any ideas on the loss for those conversions?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152234</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153142</id>
	<title>Duh</title>
	<author>greg\_barton</author>
	<datestamp>1257098640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was briefly involved with a project proposal in Dallas back in late 2001 that involved installing meters that recorded electricity use at 6 second intervals to implement finer grained billing.  Various "features" of the electricity monitoring discussed were data mining for exactly the patterns discussed in the article, in addition to detection of illegal activity.  The proposal never got off the ground, so I never had to decide whether I wanted to be involved in such a project.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was briefly involved with a project proposal in Dallas back in late 2001 that involved installing meters that recorded electricity use at 6 second intervals to implement finer grained billing .
Various " features " of the electricity monitoring discussed were data mining for exactly the patterns discussed in the article , in addition to detection of illegal activity .
The proposal never got off the ground , so I never had to decide whether I wanted to be involved in such a project .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was briefly involved with a project proposal in Dallas back in late 2001 that involved installing meters that recorded electricity use at 6 second intervals to implement finer grained billing.
Various "features" of the electricity monitoring discussed were data mining for exactly the patterns discussed in the article, in addition to detection of illegal activity.
The proposal never got off the ground, so I never had to decide whether I wanted to be involved in such a project.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30156092</id>
	<title>Re:NEWSFLASH!</title>
	<author>jellomizer</author>
	<datestamp>1258645380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That and your power usage statistics for other then billing isn't really that good of an indicator.</p><p>Wow at 10:00 on a saturday you are using a lot of energy...<br>You could be... Running the dryer for laundry, Cooking a large meal for lunch for a party. Exercising on your treadmill. Arch-welding some metal together...  or there is low power usage.  You could be Gone for the day, Just siting down and reading a book that you haven't been able to do in a while. Sick with a headache, Just have everything turned off,  for the sake you trying to save money.  Over slept...</p><p>Power usage data is very aggregate information. Very difficult to make any good assumptions about it.  As for privacy we never really had good privacy any ways.  Back in them old days when you went to the country store the manager knew everything you purchased, and why you purchased it.  It was considered friendly service.  Heck when communities were tight everyone knows what everyone else is doing. Today we have more aggregate information about our lives which actually allows us to be more private, the downside is that the aggregate is stored for a long time allowing it to come back and haunt us.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That and your power usage statistics for other then billing is n't really that good of an indicator.Wow at 10 : 00 on a saturday you are using a lot of energy...You could be... Running the dryer for laundry , Cooking a large meal for lunch for a party .
Exercising on your treadmill .
Arch-welding some metal together... or there is low power usage .
You could be Gone for the day , Just siting down and reading a book that you have n't been able to do in a while .
Sick with a headache , Just have everything turned off , for the sake you trying to save money .
Over slept...Power usage data is very aggregate information .
Very difficult to make any good assumptions about it .
As for privacy we never really had good privacy any ways .
Back in them old days when you went to the country store the manager knew everything you purchased , and why you purchased it .
It was considered friendly service .
Heck when communities were tight everyone knows what everyone else is doing .
Today we have more aggregate information about our lives which actually allows us to be more private , the downside is that the aggregate is stored for a long time allowing it to come back and haunt us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That and your power usage statistics for other then billing isn't really that good of an indicator.Wow at 10:00 on a saturday you are using a lot of energy...You could be... Running the dryer for laundry, Cooking a large meal for lunch for a party.
Exercising on your treadmill.
Arch-welding some metal together...  or there is low power usage.
You could be Gone for the day, Just siting down and reading a book that you haven't been able to do in a while.
Sick with a headache, Just have everything turned off,  for the sake you trying to save money.
Over slept...Power usage data is very aggregate information.
Very difficult to make any good assumptions about it.
As for privacy we never really had good privacy any ways.
Back in them old days when you went to the country store the manager knew everything you purchased, and why you purchased it.
It was considered friendly service.
Heck when communities were tight everyone knows what everyone else is doing.
Today we have more aggregate information about our lives which actually allows us to be more private, the downside is that the aggregate is stored for a long time allowing it to come back and haunt us.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152052</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152592</id>
	<title>Posted Anon. for obvious reasons...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257092400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I "knew" a person that "grew" marijuana.</p><p>I once asked him, generally speaking, where he grew.</p><p>What he told me was that he grew in a barn up in the mountains. Why in a barn, I asked him. Because this far out from the city, the electric meters were not able to reach cell towers, and thus could not report daily usage rates. The meter reader came out once a month so all they had was monthly usage figures (one of them old "spinny" type meters). He did this because the daily usage data was used to look for electric usage that followed a specific pattern, primarily a 11-12 hour peak usage period that would indicate growing lights. That, and the fact that nobody had a reason to be parked across the street with a FLIRgun or flying helicopters overhead. That is what he claimed, anyways.</p><p>I also once met a chap that used many rolls of copper house wiring, all spliced together into a coil, all laid out under the soil just below high-tension powerlines. Inductive leeching provided his entire grow operation with power--almost completely untraceable as well. At least that is what he claimed...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I " knew " a person that " grew " marijuana.I once asked him , generally speaking , where he grew.What he told me was that he grew in a barn up in the mountains .
Why in a barn , I asked him .
Because this far out from the city , the electric meters were not able to reach cell towers , and thus could not report daily usage rates .
The meter reader came out once a month so all they had was monthly usage figures ( one of them old " spinny " type meters ) .
He did this because the daily usage data was used to look for electric usage that followed a specific pattern , primarily a 11-12 hour peak usage period that would indicate growing lights .
That , and the fact that nobody had a reason to be parked across the street with a FLIRgun or flying helicopters overhead .
That is what he claimed , anyways.I also once met a chap that used many rolls of copper house wiring , all spliced together into a coil , all laid out under the soil just below high-tension powerlines .
Inductive leeching provided his entire grow operation with power--almost completely untraceable as well .
At least that is what he claimed.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I "knew" a person that "grew" marijuana.I once asked him, generally speaking, where he grew.What he told me was that he grew in a barn up in the mountains.
Why in a barn, I asked him.
Because this far out from the city, the electric meters were not able to reach cell towers, and thus could not report daily usage rates.
The meter reader came out once a month so all they had was monthly usage figures (one of them old "spinny" type meters).
He did this because the daily usage data was used to look for electric usage that followed a specific pattern, primarily a 11-12 hour peak usage period that would indicate growing lights.
That, and the fact that nobody had a reason to be parked across the street with a FLIRgun or flying helicopters overhead.
That is what he claimed, anyways.I also once met a chap that used many rolls of copper house wiring, all spliced together into a coil, all laid out under the soil just below high-tension powerlines.
Inductive leeching provided his entire grow operation with power--almost completely untraceable as well.
At least that is what he claimed...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30156912</id>
	<title>Hack it</title>
	<author>fulldecent</author>
	<datestamp>1258648200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would love to get access to that data. It could easily tell me which companies are working overtime and at what capacity. I could then correlate this to all public companies and trade based on that.</p><p>So... I hope that secure that info.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would love to get access to that data .
It could easily tell me which companies are working overtime and at what capacity .
I could then correlate this to all public companies and trade based on that.So... I hope that secure that info .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would love to get access to that data.
It could easily tell me which companies are working overtime and at what capacity.
I could then correlate this to all public companies and trade based on that.So... I hope that secure that info.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152166</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>theaveng</author>
	<datestamp>1257088320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>SCOTUS threw out his conviction because the cops violated his 4th amendment rights.  I would think that the use of electricity usage data should play out the same way, but who knows!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/quote&gt;Hey Glenn Beck!</p><p>Is dat u?</p><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)</p></div></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>SCOTUS threw out his conviction because the cops violated his 4th amendment rights .
I would think that the use of electricity usage data should play out the same way , but who knows !
/quote &gt; Hey Glenn Beck ! Is dat u ?
; - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>SCOTUS threw out his conviction because the cops violated his 4th amendment rights.
I would think that the use of electricity usage data should play out the same way, but who knows!
/quote&gt;Hey Glenn Beck!Is dat u?
;-)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153286</id>
	<title>We have no right to privacy.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257100500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It could well come down to it that Scott McNealy was actually right when he said that we had no right to privacy. In other words, the social interest in aggregating all the data about us, and its utility to society, might well outweigh our right to privacy.  Think about it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It could well come down to it that Scott McNealy was actually right when he said that we had no right to privacy .
In other words , the social interest in aggregating all the data about us , and its utility to society , might well outweigh our right to privacy .
Think about it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It could well come down to it that Scott McNealy was actually right when he said that we had no right to privacy.
In other words, the social interest in aggregating all the data about us, and its utility to society, might well outweigh our right to privacy.
Think about it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153016</id>
	<title>Enforcing The Law</title>
	<author>Frosty Piss</author>
	<datestamp>1257097140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>They keep performing these heinous searches and "eating out the substance" of our citizens</p></div><p>20 of 25 raids that day resulted in <b>illegal drugs</b> being found.
<br> <br>
These cops are enforcing the <i>law</i>. Don't like it? <i>Get the law changed.</i> We do elect our lawmakers, you know.
<br> <br>
Yes, it is time for sane drug laws (or no drug laws?)
<br> <br>
<a href="http://nojailforpot.com/" title="nojailforpot.com">www.NoJailForPot.com</a> [nojailforpot.com]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>They keep performing these heinous searches and " eating out the substance " of our citizens20 of 25 raids that day resulted in illegal drugs being found .
These cops are enforcing the law .
Do n't like it ?
Get the law changed .
We do elect our lawmakers , you know .
Yes , it is time for sane drug laws ( or no drug laws ?
) www.NoJailForPot.com [ nojailforpot.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They keep performing these heinous searches and "eating out the substance" of our citizens20 of 25 raids that day resulted in illegal drugs being found.
These cops are enforcing the law.
Don't like it?
Get the law changed.
We do elect our lawmakers, you know.
Yes, it is time for sane drug laws (or no drug laws?
)
 
www.NoJailForPot.com [nojailforpot.com]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152236</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30155266</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>yamfry</author>
	<datestamp>1258641480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Unfortunately, that isn't the case in Canada: <a href="http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/2004/2004scc67/2004scc67.html" title="canlii.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/2004/2004scc67/2004scc67.html</a> [canlii.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unfortunately , that is n't the case in Canada : http : //www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/2004/2004scc67/2004scc67.html [ canlii.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unfortunately, that isn't the case in Canada: http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/2004/2004scc67/2004scc67.html [canlii.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30156088</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1258645380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Hopefully U.S. anti-marijuana laws will be declared unconstitutional</i></p><p>Yeah, and Lessig won the Eldred case. Oh wait...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hopefully U.S. anti-marijuana laws will be declared unconstitutionalYeah , and Lessig won the Eldred case .
Oh wait.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hopefully U.S. anti-marijuana laws will be declared unconstitutionalYeah, and Lessig won the Eldred case.
Oh wait...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152188</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153242</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>maharb</author>
	<datestamp>1257099660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What if the information is kept strictly in the system and encrypted so that no one can access it except the system.  Then the system generates the proper aggregate reports.  This would protect individuals rights to privacy while allowing a mindless system access to the sensitive information and manage the grid properly.  Surely aggregate information is all the power company people would need to operate a smart grid.  (Both aggregate across a household over a period and aggregate of all customers in real time)</p><p>Now of course there could be questions about back doors, hackers, etc but at least no one would be able to legally use the information against you in court or to obtain a search warrant (I am assuming that would be part of the 'deal').</p><p>Maybe I am missing something huge, so please let me know if I am, but this sort of solution seems like a reasonable way to get both of best worlds.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What if the information is kept strictly in the system and encrypted so that no one can access it except the system .
Then the system generates the proper aggregate reports .
This would protect individuals rights to privacy while allowing a mindless system access to the sensitive information and manage the grid properly .
Surely aggregate information is all the power company people would need to operate a smart grid .
( Both aggregate across a household over a period and aggregate of all customers in real time ) Now of course there could be questions about back doors , hackers , etc but at least no one would be able to legally use the information against you in court or to obtain a search warrant ( I am assuming that would be part of the 'deal ' ) .Maybe I am missing something huge , so please let me know if I am , but this sort of solution seems like a reasonable way to get both of best worlds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What if the information is kept strictly in the system and encrypted so that no one can access it except the system.
Then the system generates the proper aggregate reports.
This would protect individuals rights to privacy while allowing a mindless system access to the sensitive information and manage the grid properly.
Surely aggregate information is all the power company people would need to operate a smart grid.
(Both aggregate across a household over a period and aggregate of all customers in real time)Now of course there could be questions about back doors, hackers, etc but at least no one would be able to legally use the information against you in court or to obtain a search warrant (I am assuming that would be part of the 'deal').Maybe I am missing something huge, so please let me know if I am, but this sort of solution seems like a reasonable way to get both of best worlds.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30154292</id>
	<title>My neighbours already know this</title>
	<author>L4t3r4lu5</author>
	<datestamp>1258628520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Even if electricity use is not recorded minute by minute, or at the appliance level, information may be gleaned from ongoing monitoring of electricity consumption such as the approximate <b>number of occupants, when they are present, as well as when they are awake or asleep</b>.</p></div><p>- Two<br>- When the cars are on the drive<br>- Awake during the day, asleep at night.<br> <br>There, now everybody knows. Oh no, I'm going to be identity thefted / terrorismised / the thought police are going to put me in Room 101 because I <b>go to sleep when the sun sets.</b> <br> <br>This story is more inflammatory than elephantitis.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Even if electricity use is not recorded minute by minute , or at the appliance level , information may be gleaned from ongoing monitoring of electricity consumption such as the approximate number of occupants , when they are present , as well as when they are awake or asleep.- Two- When the cars are on the drive- Awake during the day , asleep at night .
There , now everybody knows .
Oh no , I 'm going to be identity thefted / terrorismised / the thought police are going to put me in Room 101 because I go to sleep when the sun sets .
This story is more inflammatory than elephantitis .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even if electricity use is not recorded minute by minute, or at the appliance level, information may be gleaned from ongoing monitoring of electricity consumption such as the approximate number of occupants, when they are present, as well as when they are awake or asleep.- Two- When the cars are on the drive- Awake during the day, asleep at night.
There, now everybody knows.
Oh no, I'm going to be identity thefted / terrorismised / the thought police are going to put me in Room 101 because I go to sleep when the sun sets.
This story is more inflammatory than elephantitis.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152578</id>
	<title>Why a two-way system?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257092280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why can't the power company provide the information the consumer needs, and the consumer has a controller in their house that manages appliances and electricity use (without data feedback)? I don't recall the gas companies asking for control of our thermostats, so why should this be different*? You could opt-in to have your controller send data to the power company (or have the meter reader get the data when he comes around), but there would be no NEED for the power company to get information back. The power company could closely monitor each block if they want more data on what areas are helping with the smart grid effort without concerns over privacy.<br> <br>

I've heard about the smart grid for years and I know I can't be the first to ask this- maybe I'm missing something?<br> <br>

*Brownouts would be the main reason, but if everyone is getting real-time cost information (and set their controllers accordingly), the power companies would see a much better response when they jack up the rates during peak hours. I expect the system will work a lot better once they have a proper feedback loop.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why ca n't the power company provide the information the consumer needs , and the consumer has a controller in their house that manages appliances and electricity use ( without data feedback ) ?
I do n't recall the gas companies asking for control of our thermostats , so why should this be different * ?
You could opt-in to have your controller send data to the power company ( or have the meter reader get the data when he comes around ) , but there would be no NEED for the power company to get information back .
The power company could closely monitor each block if they want more data on what areas are helping with the smart grid effort without concerns over privacy .
I 've heard about the smart grid for years and I know I ca n't be the first to ask this- maybe I 'm missing something ?
* Brownouts would be the main reason , but if everyone is getting real-time cost information ( and set their controllers accordingly ) , the power companies would see a much better response when they jack up the rates during peak hours .
I expect the system will work a lot better once they have a proper feedback loop .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why can't the power company provide the information the consumer needs, and the consumer has a controller in their house that manages appliances and electricity use (without data feedback)?
I don't recall the gas companies asking for control of our thermostats, so why should this be different*?
You could opt-in to have your controller send data to the power company (or have the meter reader get the data when he comes around), but there would be no NEED for the power company to get information back.
The power company could closely monitor each block if they want more data on what areas are helping with the smart grid effort without concerns over privacy.
I've heard about the smart grid for years and I know I can't be the first to ask this- maybe I'm missing something?
*Brownouts would be the main reason, but if everyone is getting real-time cost information (and set their controllers accordingly), the power companies would see a much better response when they jack up the rates during peak hours.
I expect the system will work a lot better once they have a proper feedback loop.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30161198</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>PhYrE2k2</author>
	<datestamp>1258661280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We're kidding right?</p><p>You're missing the point.  Irrespective of the laws repsecting pot, it's still illegal to steal electricity... and in many cases from state-run companies.</p><p>If growing pot becomes legal, you'll have to pay for the hydro.  It'll increase prices<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p><p>-M</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We 're kidding right ? You 're missing the point .
Irrespective of the laws repsecting pot , it 's still illegal to steal electricity... and in many cases from state-run companies.If growing pot becomes legal , you 'll have to pay for the hydro .
It 'll increase prices ; ) -M</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We're kidding right?You're missing the point.
Irrespective of the laws repsecting pot, it's still illegal to steal electricity... and in many cases from state-run companies.If growing pot becomes legal, you'll have to pay for the hydro.
It'll increase prices ;)-M</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152188</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152052</id>
	<title>NEWSFLASH!</title>
	<author>That's Unpossible!</author>
	<datestamp>1257087600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Anything that is internet-connected and useful poses a threat to your privacy. Period.</p><p>I am willing to accept that trade-off, especially since 95\% of the privacy stories on YRO are overblown.</p><p>Oh no, the power company can determine my peak power usage. They can determine that I leave in the morning and get home at night.</p><p>In exchange, the smart grid promises some big benefits. As usual, a trade-off.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Anything that is internet-connected and useful poses a threat to your privacy .
Period.I am willing to accept that trade-off , especially since 95 \ % of the privacy stories on YRO are overblown.Oh no , the power company can determine my peak power usage .
They can determine that I leave in the morning and get home at night.In exchange , the smart grid promises some big benefits .
As usual , a trade-off .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anything that is internet-connected and useful poses a threat to your privacy.
Period.I am willing to accept that trade-off, especially since 95\% of the privacy stories on YRO are overblown.Oh no, the power company can determine my peak power usage.
They can determine that I leave in the morning and get home at night.In exchange, the smart grid promises some big benefits.
As usual, a trade-off.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153436</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257102600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The US public demanded that the Federal government do something about drugs.  Originally the Feds said they were powerless, but due to popular demand, laws were passed to deal with the dealers<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p><p>The banning of certain types of firearms during the 1920's was also due to public outcry and pressure on the Feds to do 'something about it'.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The US public demanded that the Federal government do something about drugs .
Originally the Feds said they were powerless , but due to popular demand , laws were passed to deal with the dealers ; ) The banning of certain types of firearms during the 1920 's was also due to public outcry and pressure on the Feds to do 'something about it' .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The US public demanded that the Federal government do something about drugs.
Originally the Feds said they were powerless, but due to popular demand, laws were passed to deal with the dealers ;)The banning of certain types of firearms during the 1920's was also due to public outcry and pressure on the Feds to do 'something about it'.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152188</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153850</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>toastar</author>
	<datestamp>1258621200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Amen,

Is there a single reason why it's still illegal that's not pulled out some 80's propaganda.

I'm pretty more people die from tylenol every year then pot. (100 people per year die from acetaminophen)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Amen , Is there a single reason why it 's still illegal that 's not pulled out some 80 's propaganda .
I 'm pretty more people die from tylenol every year then pot .
( 100 people per year die from acetaminophen )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amen,

Is there a single reason why it's still illegal that's not pulled out some 80's propaganda.
I'm pretty more people die from tylenol every year then pot.
(100 people per year die from acetaminophen)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152188</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152524</id>
	<title>Already there</title>
	<author>psithurism</author>
	<datestamp>1257091680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Already . I know when my water bill went crazy 2years ago, I called up the water company and they emailed me an hour by hour breakdown of my usage for the past 6months and I am not on any smart grid yet, thats just the information they keep on their net-connected-computers after they read my water meter. <br> <br> Also we also know that electricity usage has been used to look for marijuana growers for some time (example: <a href="http://www.kooky.com.my/node/1360" title="kooky.com.my" rel="nofollow">http://www.kooky.com.my/node/1360</a> [kooky.com.my]).<br> <br>We either have to get rid of the systems we already have, or not worry about the incoming systems, because they aren't providing that much more info.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Already .
I know when my water bill went crazy 2years ago , I called up the water company and they emailed me an hour by hour breakdown of my usage for the past 6months and I am not on any smart grid yet , thats just the information they keep on their net-connected-computers after they read my water meter .
Also we also know that electricity usage has been used to look for marijuana growers for some time ( example : http : //www.kooky.com.my/node/1360 [ kooky.com.my ] ) .
We either have to get rid of the systems we already have , or not worry about the incoming systems , because they are n't providing that much more info .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Already .
I know when my water bill went crazy 2years ago, I called up the water company and they emailed me an hour by hour breakdown of my usage for the past 6months and I am not on any smart grid yet, thats just the information they keep on their net-connected-computers after they read my water meter.
Also we also know that electricity usage has been used to look for marijuana growers for some time (example: http://www.kooky.com.my/node/1360 [kooky.com.my]).
We either have to get rid of the systems we already have, or not worry about the incoming systems, because they aren't providing that much more info.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152628</id>
	<title>Re:NEWSFLASH!</title>
	<author>betterunixthanunix</author>
	<datestamp>1257092820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Really, they can glean a whole lot more information, and it may not be information they should be gleaning.  You thought that affair was a private matter, but they figured out that there was an extra person in the house; this might be used against you (e.g. as the auto companies tried to send women after Ralph Nader to create a scandal).<br> <br>

There should be explicit privacy built into the smart grid.  Oh well, not enough people care.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Really , they can glean a whole lot more information , and it may not be information they should be gleaning .
You thought that affair was a private matter , but they figured out that there was an extra person in the house ; this might be used against you ( e.g .
as the auto companies tried to send women after Ralph Nader to create a scandal ) .
There should be explicit privacy built into the smart grid .
Oh well , not enough people care .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Really, they can glean a whole lot more information, and it may not be information they should be gleaning.
You thought that affair was a private matter, but they figured out that there was an extra person in the house; this might be used against you (e.g.
as the auto companies tried to send women after Ralph Nader to create a scandal).
There should be explicit privacy built into the smart grid.
Oh well, not enough people care.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152052</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152174</id>
	<title>Making use of public electric use data</title>
	<author>Latent Heat</author>
	<datestamp>1257088320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Our power company has a Web site -- enter an address, badda boom, badda bing, get the household electric use.
<p>
Maybe a person with illegal growing in mind could canvas the neighborhood, find out the upper bound from the normal "wasteful" electric use, and then "fly under the radar" and only grow subject to that cap on electric use.
</p><p>
On the other hand, maybe all of the folks with big electric bills are growing?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Our power company has a Web site -- enter an address , badda boom , badda bing , get the household electric use .
Maybe a person with illegal growing in mind could canvas the neighborhood , find out the upper bound from the normal " wasteful " electric use , and then " fly under the radar " and only grow subject to that cap on electric use .
On the other hand , maybe all of the folks with big electric bills are growing ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Our power company has a Web site -- enter an address, badda boom, badda bing, get the household electric use.
Maybe a person with illegal growing in mind could canvas the neighborhood, find out the upper bound from the normal "wasteful" electric use, and then "fly under the radar" and only grow subject to that cap on electric use.
On the other hand, maybe all of the folks with big electric bills are growing?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151914</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153426</id>
	<title>Re:It's gonna be a while.</title>
	<author>guardia</author>
	<datestamp>1257102300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>People aren't going to run washing machines at 2AM in the summertime to avoid a $0.50 fee and get smelly clothes since nobody will be around to flip the laundry into the dryer.</p></div><p>You lack imagination... Imagine a price difference of $10 and imagine you can buy a washing-drying machine, that can do both washing AND drying... See, that was easy.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>People are n't going to run washing machines at 2AM in the summertime to avoid a $ 0.50 fee and get smelly clothes since nobody will be around to flip the laundry into the dryer.You lack imagination... Imagine a price difference of $ 10 and imagine you can buy a washing-drying machine , that can do both washing AND drying... See , that was easy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People aren't going to run washing machines at 2AM in the summertime to avoid a $0.50 fee and get smelly clothes since nobody will be around to flip the laundry into the dryer.You lack imagination... Imagine a price difference of $10 and imagine you can buy a washing-drying machine, that can do both washing AND drying... See, that was easy.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152222</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153494</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>V50</author>
	<datestamp>1257103740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, I guess that answers my question of whether Superman could legally gather evidence for the police using his X-Ray vision.</p><p>Good to know. Now I can stop lining my walls with lead and kryptonite.</p><p>Now, need to find a case relating to super-hearing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , I guess that answers my question of whether Superman could legally gather evidence for the police using his X-Ray vision.Good to know .
Now I can stop lining my walls with lead and kryptonite.Now , need to find a case relating to super-hearing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, I guess that answers my question of whether Superman could legally gather evidence for the police using his X-Ray vision.Good to know.
Now I can stop lining my walls with lead and kryptonite.Now, need to find a case relating to super-hearing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152188</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257088440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hopefully U.S. anti-marijuana laws will be declared unconstitutional (where was Congress given authority to completely ban a naturally-growing plant?) before this Smart Grid is implemented, and then it won't matter if you are using grow lights or not.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hopefully U.S. anti-marijuana laws will be declared unconstitutional ( where was Congress given authority to completely ban a naturally-growing plant ?
) before this Smart Grid is implemented , and then it wo n't matter if you are using grow lights or not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hopefully U.S. anti-marijuana laws will be declared unconstitutional (where was Congress given authority to completely ban a naturally-growing plant?
) before this Smart Grid is implemented, and then it won't matter if you are using grow lights or not.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151914</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30155804</id>
	<title>Re:Enforcing The Law</title>
	<author>BassMan449</author>
	<datestamp>1258644240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Even if that statistic is correct that's still a 20\% failure rate.  If they are failing to find anything 20\% of the time I would call the more of a problem then one bad raid.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Even if that statistic is correct that 's still a 20 \ % failure rate .
If they are failing to find anything 20 \ % of the time I would call the more of a problem then one bad raid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even if that statistic is correct that's still a 20\% failure rate.
If they are failing to find anything 20\% of the time I would call the more of a problem then one bad raid.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153780</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258663080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>family's constant use of<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... three computers</p></div><p>That will teach them! Those Folding @ Home running bastards!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>family 's constant use of ... three computersThat will teach them !
Those Folding @ Home running bastards !
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>family's constant use of ... three computersThat will teach them!
Those Folding @ Home running bastards!
;)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152236</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152432</id>
	<title>A matter of priorities...</title>
	<author>jafo</author>
	<datestamp>1257090420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ok, sure, so the smart grid may leak private information...<br><br>But my bigger concern now is this whole social security number "thing" where it's used as a primary database key for all sorts of companies, both within and outside of the government, is one of the primary keys to identity theft, and the government requires it's use for government things (where it's well protected), but doesn't prevent it's use by third parties (where it's *NOT* well protected).  The most the government says is that you don't have to give your SSN to a non-government entity, but they can refuse to do business with you because of it.  So as long as you don't need insurance or healthcare, you can do a pretty good job of protecting against identity theft.<br><br>Oh, wait, this report is from Canada, where they *DO* have requirements about the protection of their equivalent to the SSN...<br><br>Sean</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ok , sure , so the smart grid may leak private information...But my bigger concern now is this whole social security number " thing " where it 's used as a primary database key for all sorts of companies , both within and outside of the government , is one of the primary keys to identity theft , and the government requires it 's use for government things ( where it 's well protected ) , but does n't prevent it 's use by third parties ( where it 's * NOT * well protected ) .
The most the government says is that you do n't have to give your SSN to a non-government entity , but they can refuse to do business with you because of it .
So as long as you do n't need insurance or healthcare , you can do a pretty good job of protecting against identity theft.Oh , wait , this report is from Canada , where they * DO * have requirements about the protection of their equivalent to the SSN...Sean</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ok, sure, so the smart grid may leak private information...But my bigger concern now is this whole social security number "thing" where it's used as a primary database key for all sorts of companies, both within and outside of the government, is one of the primary keys to identity theft, and the government requires it's use for government things (where it's well protected), but doesn't prevent it's use by third parties (where it's *NOT* well protected).
The most the government says is that you don't have to give your SSN to a non-government entity, but they can refuse to do business with you because of it.
So as long as you don't need insurance or healthcare, you can do a pretty good job of protecting against identity theft.Oh, wait, this report is from Canada, where they *DO* have requirements about the protection of their equivalent to the SSN...Sean</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152222</id>
	<title>It's gonna be a while.</title>
	<author>duffbeer703</author>
	<datestamp>1257088740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Smart grid is really needed to provide the ability to support electric cars without taking out the power system, and to provide peak-demand load management for people who use power at peak times (ie. businesses, during the day). People aren't going to run washing machines at 2AM in the summertime to avoid a $0.50 fee and get smelly clothes since nobody will be around to flip the laundry into the dryer.</p><p>The problem at the residential level is that other than the electric cars that nobody wants there is minimal value to shifting residential power demand for most people -- their demand is at night, since there aren't many housewives hanging out at home anymore. From what I've read, energy usage isn't the problem -- the problem is providing sufficient power during periods of peak demand. Additionally, many, many places don't have the necessary last-mile power infrastructure to handle the electric cars that are supposedly going to drive increased consumer demand.</p><p>Plus, nobody has plugin electric cars, and the excessive costs will keep it that way. Why would you buy a $40,000 car that is similar to a compact car and requires upgrading your home electrical system to own? Just buy a diesel Jetta, which has a far lower TCO. Hell, hybrid diesel-electric cars are probably more practical.</p><p>Upgrading the infrastructure of every side street in every city is going to cost billions and take years. And it will meet resistance -- residential neighborhoods with trees and overhead lines will find the new supply lines also mean that the utility company will eviscerate every tree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Smart grid is really needed to provide the ability to support electric cars without taking out the power system , and to provide peak-demand load management for people who use power at peak times ( ie .
businesses , during the day ) .
People are n't going to run washing machines at 2AM in the summertime to avoid a $ 0.50 fee and get smelly clothes since nobody will be around to flip the laundry into the dryer.The problem at the residential level is that other than the electric cars that nobody wants there is minimal value to shifting residential power demand for most people -- their demand is at night , since there are n't many housewives hanging out at home anymore .
From what I 've read , energy usage is n't the problem -- the problem is providing sufficient power during periods of peak demand .
Additionally , many , many places do n't have the necessary last-mile power infrastructure to handle the electric cars that are supposedly going to drive increased consumer demand.Plus , nobody has plugin electric cars , and the excessive costs will keep it that way .
Why would you buy a $ 40,000 car that is similar to a compact car and requires upgrading your home electrical system to own ?
Just buy a diesel Jetta , which has a far lower TCO .
Hell , hybrid diesel-electric cars are probably more practical.Upgrading the infrastructure of every side street in every city is going to cost billions and take years .
And it will meet resistance -- residential neighborhoods with trees and overhead lines will find the new supply lines also mean that the utility company will eviscerate every tree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Smart grid is really needed to provide the ability to support electric cars without taking out the power system, and to provide peak-demand load management for people who use power at peak times (ie.
businesses, during the day).
People aren't going to run washing machines at 2AM in the summertime to avoid a $0.50 fee and get smelly clothes since nobody will be around to flip the laundry into the dryer.The problem at the residential level is that other than the electric cars that nobody wants there is minimal value to shifting residential power demand for most people -- their demand is at night, since there aren't many housewives hanging out at home anymore.
From what I've read, energy usage isn't the problem -- the problem is providing sufficient power during periods of peak demand.
Additionally, many, many places don't have the necessary last-mile power infrastructure to handle the electric cars that are supposedly going to drive increased consumer demand.Plus, nobody has plugin electric cars, and the excessive costs will keep it that way.
Why would you buy a $40,000 car that is similar to a compact car and requires upgrading your home electrical system to own?
Just buy a diesel Jetta, which has a far lower TCO.
Hell, hybrid diesel-electric cars are probably more practical.Upgrading the infrastructure of every side street in every city is going to cost billions and take years.
And it will meet resistance -- residential neighborhoods with trees and overhead lines will find the new supply lines also mean that the utility company will eviscerate every tree.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152236</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257088860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Eight armed narcs raided the Dagy home on March 19 and found absolutely nothing. No evidence of pot anywhere, not even stashed in the children's toys. Seems that the coppers mistook the family's constant use of the dishwasher, washer/dryer, three computers, four ceiling fans, and other electronic devices as evidence of a felony drug operation. Oops. The Dagys--Mom's a homemaker and Dad's a general manager of 21 Shell stations--would like an apology from the Carlsbad Police Department. Sadly, we'd recommend that the Dagys not hold their collective breath."</p><p>I hate drug cops and homeland security.  They keep performing these heinous searches and "eating out the substance" of our citizens</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Eight armed narcs raided the Dagy home on March 19 and found absolutely nothing .
No evidence of pot anywhere , not even stashed in the children 's toys .
Seems that the coppers mistook the family 's constant use of the dishwasher , washer/dryer , three computers , four ceiling fans , and other electronic devices as evidence of a felony drug operation .
Oops. The Dagys--Mom 's a homemaker and Dad 's a general manager of 21 Shell stations--would like an apology from the Carlsbad Police Department .
Sadly , we 'd recommend that the Dagys not hold their collective breath .
" I hate drug cops and homeland security .
They keep performing these heinous searches and " eating out the substance " of our citizens</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Eight armed narcs raided the Dagy home on March 19 and found absolutely nothing.
No evidence of pot anywhere, not even stashed in the children's toys.
Seems that the coppers mistook the family's constant use of the dishwasher, washer/dryer, three computers, four ceiling fans, and other electronic devices as evidence of a felony drug operation.
Oops. The Dagys--Mom's a homemaker and Dad's a general manager of 21 Shell stations--would like an apology from the Carlsbad Police Department.
Sadly, we'd recommend that the Dagys not hold their collective breath.
"I hate drug cops and homeland security.
They keep performing these heinous searches and "eating out the substance" of our citizens</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153770</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258662900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Cops used a thermal imager pointed at a guy's house (from their patrol car across the street).</i> </p><p>Just as divorce lawyers queue up to extract records of electronic toll collection records, cops will be slavering at the doors of power companies looking for evidence of "unauthorized indoor agriculture" power usage patterns, most likely without warrants. They'll go on fishing trips that will make the bluefin tuna fishery look like a bunch of kids with droplines and bent pins.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Cops used a thermal imager pointed at a guy 's house ( from their patrol car across the street ) .
Just as divorce lawyers queue up to extract records of electronic toll collection records , cops will be slavering at the doors of power companies looking for evidence of " unauthorized indoor agriculture " power usage patterns , most likely without warrants .
They 'll go on fishing trips that will make the bluefin tuna fishery look like a bunch of kids with droplines and bent pins .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cops used a thermal imager pointed at a guy's house (from their patrol car across the street).
Just as divorce lawyers queue up to extract records of electronic toll collection records, cops will be slavering at the doors of power companies looking for evidence of "unauthorized indoor agriculture" power usage patterns, most likely without warrants.
They'll go on fishing trips that will make the bluefin tuna fishery look like a bunch of kids with droplines and bent pins.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153318</id>
	<title>Electricity usage information wants to be free.</title>
	<author>Exception Duck</author>
	<datestamp>1257100800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Electricity usage information wants to be free.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Electricity usage information wants to be free .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Electricity usage information wants to be free.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152800</id>
	<title>I'd be more worried about secret DEA subpoenas</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257094500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What would stop the DEA from snooping nearly at will via secret subpoena of the data at utility companies, to further the "War on Drugs" to attempt to better detect grow ops? If you use standardized domestically available lighting and water pump apparatus, in short order they would come with smart grid compatible chips in the power supply supplying data to the house smart meter via PLC over the power cables themselves. Then without your knowledge (since most people won't realize their home equipment has embedded PLC modems), their appliances will snitch to the smart meter.</p><p>Yeah, I look real forward to DEA no-knock SWAT teams busting in because I like to use halogen lighting while I read in my bed every night. Oh, and thanks to the PATRIOT act and other anti-terror legislation, once the DEA gets its claws on the data, DHS and other government agencies will be all over you too. Imagine state tax agencies busting you for false property values and reporting lower taxes because you didn't disclose the various improvements you made to your house, which contained various electronic gear which snitched on you to the power company.</p><p>It's almost as bad as someone operating a high powered RFID reader outside your home. Sure, you would get hardly any useful data now, but RFID tags in consumer goods will only continue to increase (and for cost reasons will not include self-termination fusing), and the cost of embedding a PLC modem chip for smart meter/smart grid compatibility will drop as dedicated IC's come to market. Hell, it could easily sneak in under EnergyStar or UL certification rules and you would be none the wiser.</p><p>Though once the paranoia over stuff like this sets in, you'll start to see people live in faraday cage boxes with power provided through the cage via a non-conductive motor shaft and a generator on the inside, along with fiber optic network access.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What would stop the DEA from snooping nearly at will via secret subpoena of the data at utility companies , to further the " War on Drugs " to attempt to better detect grow ops ?
If you use standardized domestically available lighting and water pump apparatus , in short order they would come with smart grid compatible chips in the power supply supplying data to the house smart meter via PLC over the power cables themselves .
Then without your knowledge ( since most people wo n't realize their home equipment has embedded PLC modems ) , their appliances will snitch to the smart meter.Yeah , I look real forward to DEA no-knock SWAT teams busting in because I like to use halogen lighting while I read in my bed every night .
Oh , and thanks to the PATRIOT act and other anti-terror legislation , once the DEA gets its claws on the data , DHS and other government agencies will be all over you too .
Imagine state tax agencies busting you for false property values and reporting lower taxes because you did n't disclose the various improvements you made to your house , which contained various electronic gear which snitched on you to the power company.It 's almost as bad as someone operating a high powered RFID reader outside your home .
Sure , you would get hardly any useful data now , but RFID tags in consumer goods will only continue to increase ( and for cost reasons will not include self-termination fusing ) , and the cost of embedding a PLC modem chip for smart meter/smart grid compatibility will drop as dedicated IC 's come to market .
Hell , it could easily sneak in under EnergyStar or UL certification rules and you would be none the wiser.Though once the paranoia over stuff like this sets in , you 'll start to see people live in faraday cage boxes with power provided through the cage via a non-conductive motor shaft and a generator on the inside , along with fiber optic network access .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What would stop the DEA from snooping nearly at will via secret subpoena of the data at utility companies, to further the "War on Drugs" to attempt to better detect grow ops?
If you use standardized domestically available lighting and water pump apparatus, in short order they would come with smart grid compatible chips in the power supply supplying data to the house smart meter via PLC over the power cables themselves.
Then without your knowledge (since most people won't realize their home equipment has embedded PLC modems), their appliances will snitch to the smart meter.Yeah, I look real forward to DEA no-knock SWAT teams busting in because I like to use halogen lighting while I read in my bed every night.
Oh, and thanks to the PATRIOT act and other anti-terror legislation, once the DEA gets its claws on the data, DHS and other government agencies will be all over you too.
Imagine state tax agencies busting you for false property values and reporting lower taxes because you didn't disclose the various improvements you made to your house, which contained various electronic gear which snitched on you to the power company.It's almost as bad as someone operating a high powered RFID reader outside your home.
Sure, you would get hardly any useful data now, but RFID tags in consumer goods will only continue to increase (and for cost reasons will not include self-termination fusing), and the cost of embedding a PLC modem chip for smart meter/smart grid compatibility will drop as dedicated IC's come to market.
Hell, it could easily sneak in under EnergyStar or UL certification rules and you would be none the wiser.Though once the paranoia over stuff like this sets in, you'll start to see people live in faraday cage boxes with power provided through the cage via a non-conductive motor shaft and a generator on the inside, along with fiber optic network access.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30157662</id>
	<title>Re:We have no right to privacy.</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1258650360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have, he's wrong.</p><p>Give me an example where actual private information is easily available?</p><p>What and when you buy a product isn't private in and of itself.</p><p>What you do in public isn't private info, never has been.<br>He is arguing that there has been a loss in privacy where we never had any.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have , he 's wrong.Give me an example where actual private information is easily available ? What and when you buy a product is n't private in and of itself.What you do in public is n't private info , never has been.He is arguing that there has been a loss in privacy where we never had any .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have, he's wrong.Give me an example where actual private information is easily available?What and when you buy a product isn't private in and of itself.What you do in public isn't private info, never has been.He is arguing that there has been a loss in privacy where we never had any.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153286</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152270</id>
	<title>Have you forgotten about your person tracker?</title>
	<author>jackchance</author>
	<datestamp>1257089100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Last time i checked most people carry a cellphone which authorities can use to locate your person at all times.</p><p>BUT electricity usage can be used to <a href="http://hamptonroads.com/node/510056" title="hamptonroads.com">get a warrant</a> [hamptonroads.com] to search your home:</p><p>"An unusually high electricity bill alerted police to a possible marijuana-growing operation, the warrant said."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Last time i checked most people carry a cellphone which authorities can use to locate your person at all times.BUT electricity usage can be used to get a warrant [ hamptonroads.com ] to search your home : " An unusually high electricity bill alerted police to a possible marijuana-growing operation , the warrant said .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Last time i checked most people carry a cellphone which authorities can use to locate your person at all times.BUT electricity usage can be used to get a warrant [hamptonroads.com] to search your home:"An unusually high electricity bill alerted police to a possible marijuana-growing operation, the warrant said.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152488</id>
	<title>Re:My CA townhouse got "smartmetered" last week.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257091200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They actually use native IPv6 with IPSEC for all of the Smart Meters on their own private wireless and fiber backbones.  For some of the nodes that cannot use local wireless reach a substation (remote, non-urban areas), they use VZN's cellular network, with IPv6 encapsulated in IPv4 to the SSN network container where it comes out IPv6 to talk to the rest of the infrastructure.</p><p>However, PG&amp;E doesn't host any of the infrastructure, they outsource it all to Silver Springs.  So, not only does PG&amp;E have all this info on you, so does SSN.</p><p>All utilities to date, except for mine, outsource the data warehousing to SSN.  I worked on the implementation of my local utility (doing the fiber to all the substations for this AMI network), and my utility was SSN's first customer who was going to not use them for hosting it all.</p><p>While utilities can monitoring you down to the many times per minute (I don't recall the stats, perhaps as often as a second), they don't have room to store that much data.  All they really need is to get is the data at the time the rate changes (morning, evening, night, whatever).  However, all of that can be buffered in the meter for a good long time (it's just a bunch of numbers and timestamps anyway).</p><p>Someone wanting to know what was going on at your house would be better to watch the internet there and your credit/debit cards purchases.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They actually use native IPv6 with IPSEC for all of the Smart Meters on their own private wireless and fiber backbones .
For some of the nodes that can not use local wireless reach a substation ( remote , non-urban areas ) , they use VZN 's cellular network , with IPv6 encapsulated in IPv4 to the SSN network container where it comes out IPv6 to talk to the rest of the infrastructure.However , PG&amp;E does n't host any of the infrastructure , they outsource it all to Silver Springs .
So , not only does PG&amp;E have all this info on you , so does SSN.All utilities to date , except for mine , outsource the data warehousing to SSN .
I worked on the implementation of my local utility ( doing the fiber to all the substations for this AMI network ) , and my utility was SSN 's first customer who was going to not use them for hosting it all.While utilities can monitoring you down to the many times per minute ( I do n't recall the stats , perhaps as often as a second ) , they do n't have room to store that much data .
All they really need is to get is the data at the time the rate changes ( morning , evening , night , whatever ) .
However , all of that can be buffered in the meter for a good long time ( it 's just a bunch of numbers and timestamps anyway ) .Someone wanting to know what was going on at your house would be better to watch the internet there and your credit/debit cards purchases .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They actually use native IPv6 with IPSEC for all of the Smart Meters on their own private wireless and fiber backbones.
For some of the nodes that cannot use local wireless reach a substation (remote, non-urban areas), they use VZN's cellular network, with IPv6 encapsulated in IPv4 to the SSN network container where it comes out IPv6 to talk to the rest of the infrastructure.However, PG&amp;E doesn't host any of the infrastructure, they outsource it all to Silver Springs.
So, not only does PG&amp;E have all this info on you, so does SSN.All utilities to date, except for mine, outsource the data warehousing to SSN.
I worked on the implementation of my local utility (doing the fiber to all the substations for this AMI network), and my utility was SSN's first customer who was going to not use them for hosting it all.While utilities can monitoring you down to the many times per minute (I don't recall the stats, perhaps as often as a second), they don't have room to store that much data.
All they really need is to get is the data at the time the rate changes (morning, evening, night, whatever).
However, all of that can be buffered in the meter for a good long time (it's just a bunch of numbers and timestamps anyway).Someone wanting to know what was going on at your house would be better to watch the internet there and your credit/debit cards purchases.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152136</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153240</id>
	<title>I guess that's what you get in a big city...</title>
	<author>MadMatr07</author>
	<datestamp>1257099660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well I'm just glad I live in a town small enough that it only has one stoplight and no one would care to put cameras in. Still, this kind of observance never ends well.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well I 'm just glad I live in a town small enough that it only has one stoplight and no one would care to put cameras in .
Still , this kind of observance never ends well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well I'm just glad I live in a town small enough that it only has one stoplight and no one would care to put cameras in.
Still, this kind of observance never ends well.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152014</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257087480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's why now they use some other BS but acceptable reason to get a warrant (ie: informant, "smelled something", etc.) when they notice something with a thermal imager. I'm sure they'll do the same for electricity usage if it proved judge unfriendly on it's own.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's why now they use some other BS but acceptable reason to get a warrant ( ie : informant , " smelled something " , etc .
) when they notice something with a thermal imager .
I 'm sure they 'll do the same for electricity usage if it proved judge unfriendly on it 's own .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's why now they use some other BS but acceptable reason to get a warrant (ie: informant, "smelled something", etc.
) when they notice something with a thermal imager.
I'm sure they'll do the same for electricity usage if it proved judge unfriendly on it's own.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30168554</id>
	<title>Re:Posted Anon. for obvious reasons...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258656900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I also once met a chap that used many rolls of copper house wiring, all spliced together into a coil, all laid out under the soil just below high-tension powerlines. Inductive leeching provided his entire grow operation with power--almost completely untraceable as well. At least that is what he claimed..</p></div><p>Reminds me of a Mythbusters, oh wait: <a href="http://mythbustersresults.com/special4" title="mythbustersresults.com" rel="nofollow">coil of baling wire positioned under a power line</a> [mythbustersresults.com]<br>To summarize: They got a few mV.</p><p>A thought I have on that as well, most high voltage lines are going to be 3-phase.  If you are just pulling on one phase, you are going to screw with their balance (detectable!). (Same thing with 2 phases).  To be undetectable (I'm just thinking here) you would need to pull from all 3 phases equally so that Power Out = Power In - Losses, and try to hide your stuff in what they think are losses.  (Of course, if they have high losses, they might inspect the lines to see what is causing the losses because they are going to be thinking that something is failing, or something broke).</p><p>But, if you pull ideally from all 3 phases on a single coil (so one pair of wires out) the math says you get nothing out.  (Wanna See: Have an 'A' phase, 'B' phase (A+120 degrees), and a  'C' phase (A-120 degrees).  Calculate the sine of all 3 as A goes from 0 degrees-360 degrees. Then sum up each line at each of the degrees (A(0)+B(120)+C(-120), A(1)+B(121)+C(119), etc).  Each A+B+C will be 0. ).<br>Inductively coupling 3 phases, with several (lots) feet of air separating, I somehow doubt it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I also once met a chap that used many rolls of copper house wiring , all spliced together into a coil , all laid out under the soil just below high-tension powerlines .
Inductive leeching provided his entire grow operation with power--almost completely untraceable as well .
At least that is what he claimed..Reminds me of a Mythbusters , oh wait : coil of baling wire positioned under a power line [ mythbustersresults.com ] To summarize : They got a few mV.A thought I have on that as well , most high voltage lines are going to be 3-phase .
If you are just pulling on one phase , you are going to screw with their balance ( detectable ! ) .
( Same thing with 2 phases ) .
To be undetectable ( I 'm just thinking here ) you would need to pull from all 3 phases equally so that Power Out = Power In - Losses , and try to hide your stuff in what they think are losses .
( Of course , if they have high losses , they might inspect the lines to see what is causing the losses because they are going to be thinking that something is failing , or something broke ) .But , if you pull ideally from all 3 phases on a single coil ( so one pair of wires out ) the math says you get nothing out .
( Wan na See : Have an 'A ' phase , 'B ' phase ( A + 120 degrees ) , and a 'C ' phase ( A-120 degrees ) .
Calculate the sine of all 3 as A goes from 0 degrees-360 degrees .
Then sum up each line at each of the degrees ( A ( 0 ) + B ( 120 ) + C ( -120 ) , A ( 1 ) + B ( 121 ) + C ( 119 ) , etc ) .
Each A + B + C will be 0 .
) .Inductively coupling 3 phases , with several ( lots ) feet of air separating , I somehow doubt it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I also once met a chap that used many rolls of copper house wiring, all spliced together into a coil, all laid out under the soil just below high-tension powerlines.
Inductive leeching provided his entire grow operation with power--almost completely untraceable as well.
At least that is what he claimed..Reminds me of a Mythbusters, oh wait: coil of baling wire positioned under a power line [mythbustersresults.com]To summarize: They got a few mV.A thought I have on that as well, most high voltage lines are going to be 3-phase.
If you are just pulling on one phase, you are going to screw with their balance (detectable!).
(Same thing with 2 phases).
To be undetectable (I'm just thinking here) you would need to pull from all 3 phases equally so that Power Out = Power In - Losses, and try to hide your stuff in what they think are losses.
(Of course, if they have high losses, they might inspect the lines to see what is causing the losses because they are going to be thinking that something is failing, or something broke).But, if you pull ideally from all 3 phases on a single coil (so one pair of wires out) the math says you get nothing out.
(Wanna See: Have an 'A' phase, 'B' phase (A+120 degrees), and a  'C' phase (A-120 degrees).
Calculate the sine of all 3 as A goes from 0 degrees-360 degrees.
Then sum up each line at each of the degrees (A(0)+B(120)+C(-120), A(1)+B(121)+C(119), etc).
Each A+B+C will be 0.
).Inductively coupling 3 phases, with several (lots) feet of air separating, I somehow doubt it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152592</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30155658</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Attila Dimedici</author>
	<datestamp>1258643520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The authorities have used power use to identify pot growers in the past. Generally, someone growing pot indoors on a scale large enough to make a living at it uses a lot more power than an ordinary person in a similar residence.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The authorities have used power use to identify pot growers in the past .
Generally , someone growing pot indoors on a scale large enough to make a living at it uses a lot more power than an ordinary person in a similar residence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The authorities have used power use to identify pot growers in the past.
Generally, someone growing pot indoors on a scale large enough to make a living at it uses a lot more power than an ordinary person in a similar residence.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151914</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30154642</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>DarenN</author>
	<datestamp>1258634520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>long term abuse of THC can cause psychosis.</p></div><p>This has been disproved again and again - most recently in England. It would be more accurate to say "*if* a person has a pre-disposition to psychosis long term abuse of THC *may* statistically increase their chances of psychosis by a non-negligible amount"</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>long term abuse of THC can cause psychosis.This has been disproved again and again - most recently in England .
It would be more accurate to say " * if * a person has a pre-disposition to psychosis long term abuse of THC * may * statistically increase their chances of psychosis by a non-negligible amount "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>long term abuse of THC can cause psychosis.This has been disproved again and again - most recently in England.
It would be more accurate to say "*if* a person has a pre-disposition to psychosis long term abuse of THC *may* statistically increase their chances of psychosis by a non-negligible amount"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152930</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</id>
	<title>Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257085920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Reminds me of Kyllo v. United States</p><p>Cops used a thermal imager pointed at a guy's house (from their patrol car across the street).</p><p>They then use that as evidence to go bust the guy for marijuana.</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyllo\_v.\_United\_States" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyllo\_v.\_United\_States</a> [wikipedia.org]</p><p>SCOTUS threw out his conviction because the cops violated his 4th amendment rights.</p><p>I would think that the use of electricity usage data should play out the same way, but who knows!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Reminds me of Kyllo v. United StatesCops used a thermal imager pointed at a guy 's house ( from their patrol car across the street ) .They then use that as evidence to go bust the guy for marijuana.http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyllo \ _v. \ _United \ _States [ wikipedia.org ] SCOTUS threw out his conviction because the cops violated his 4th amendment rights.I would think that the use of electricity usage data should play out the same way , but who knows !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Reminds me of Kyllo v. United StatesCops used a thermal imager pointed at a guy's house (from their patrol car across the street).They then use that as evidence to go bust the guy for marijuana.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyllo\_v.\_United\_States [wikipedia.org]SCOTUS threw out his conviction because the cops violated his 4th amendment rights.I would think that the use of electricity usage data should play out the same way, but who knows!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152672</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257093240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I don't think anyone would be subject to a search warrant over electrical usage</p></div></blockquote><p>Unfortunately, it's already happening in many cities in the US.  I'm too lazy to look up others, but <a href="http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid:561535" title="austinchronicle.com" rel="nofollow">here</a> [austinchronicle.com] is an article about Austin's little known data mining program.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't think anyone would be subject to a search warrant over electrical usageUnfortunately , it 's already happening in many cities in the US .
I 'm too lazy to look up others , but here [ austinchronicle.com ] is an article about Austin 's little known data mining program .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't think anyone would be subject to a search warrant over electrical usageUnfortunately, it's already happening in many cities in the US.
I'm too lazy to look up others, but here [austinchronicle.com] is an article about Austin's little known data mining program.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151914</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152626</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Sponge Bath</author>
	<datestamp>1257092760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>Hopefully U.S. anti-marijuana laws will be declared unconstitutional...</i></p><p>The constitution is only a piece of paper. I hear a lot of rhetoric about rule of law and not of men, but it always boils down to a group of powerful people allowing just enough freedom to others to do as they tell you. That currently means beating and imprisoning you to protect you from that naturally growing plant. So, for the sake of your well being, light up a government sanctioned cigarette and down a bottle of tax revenue providing bourbon.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hopefully U.S. anti-marijuana laws will be declared unconstitutional...The constitution is only a piece of paper .
I hear a lot of rhetoric about rule of law and not of men , but it always boils down to a group of powerful people allowing just enough freedom to others to do as they tell you .
That currently means beating and imprisoning you to protect you from that naturally growing plant .
So , for the sake of your well being , light up a government sanctioned cigarette and down a bottle of tax revenue providing bourbon .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Hopefully U.S. anti-marijuana laws will be declared unconstitutional...The constitution is only a piece of paper.
I hear a lot of rhetoric about rule of law and not of men, but it always boils down to a group of powerful people allowing just enough freedom to others to do as they tell you.
That currently means beating and imprisoning you to protect you from that naturally growing plant.
So, for the sake of your well being, light up a government sanctioned cigarette and down a bottle of tax revenue providing bourbon.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152188</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152136</id>
	<title>My CA townhouse got "smartmetered" last week.</title>
	<author>Ungrounded Lightning</author>
	<datestamp>1257088080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>PG&amp;E is using (for electricity) a GE I-120 smartmeter with a Silver Spring Networks interface.  (Installer said they plan to install the associated network on the poles shortly, after which no more meter readers wandering the neighborhood.)</p><p>According to the meter's description on GE's site it uses IP and "industry standard crypto" over a two way radio link to a network running their software.  It can be remotely tweaked and have software upgrades remotely loaded.  (I can hear the cypherpunks booting up already.)</p><p>It records and reports high-time-resolution information about the utility use.  It can be used to shut the power off in case of "billing trouble".  It doesn't do net metering.  Instead it treats backfeeding the net as a sign of cheating - an old mechanical-meter hack consisting of unplugging and inverting the meter to "run it backward" a few days per month.  (It records the events around the reversal - unplug, replug-inverted, unplug, replug-normal - with high time resolution, to be used as evidence if it goes to court.)</p><p>If you want to do net metering once this is installed you have to get the power company to come out again and install another meter, set up for "two-way metering".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>PG&amp;E is using ( for electricity ) a GE I-120 smartmeter with a Silver Spring Networks interface .
( Installer said they plan to install the associated network on the poles shortly , after which no more meter readers wandering the neighborhood .
) According to the meter 's description on GE 's site it uses IP and " industry standard crypto " over a two way radio link to a network running their software .
It can be remotely tweaked and have software upgrades remotely loaded .
( I can hear the cypherpunks booting up already .
) It records and reports high-time-resolution information about the utility use .
It can be used to shut the power off in case of " billing trouble " .
It does n't do net metering .
Instead it treats backfeeding the net as a sign of cheating - an old mechanical-meter hack consisting of unplugging and inverting the meter to " run it backward " a few days per month .
( It records the events around the reversal - unplug , replug-inverted , unplug , replug-normal - with high time resolution , to be used as evidence if it goes to court .
) If you want to do net metering once this is installed you have to get the power company to come out again and install another meter , set up for " two-way metering " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PG&amp;E is using (for electricity) a GE I-120 smartmeter with a Silver Spring Networks interface.
(Installer said they plan to install the associated network on the poles shortly, after which no more meter readers wandering the neighborhood.
)According to the meter's description on GE's site it uses IP and "industry standard crypto" over a two way radio link to a network running their software.
It can be remotely tweaked and have software upgrades remotely loaded.
(I can hear the cypherpunks booting up already.
)It records and reports high-time-resolution information about the utility use.
It can be used to shut the power off in case of "billing trouble".
It doesn't do net metering.
Instead it treats backfeeding the net as a sign of cheating - an old mechanical-meter hack consisting of unplugging and inverting the meter to "run it backward" a few days per month.
(It records the events around the reversal - unplug, replug-inverted, unplug, replug-normal - with high time resolution, to be used as evidence if it goes to court.
)If you want to do net metering once this is installed you have to get the power company to come out again and install another meter, set up for "two-way metering".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153352</id>
	<title>Monitoring Already in Use</title>
	<author>Xveers</author>
	<datestamp>1257101160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>To a degree, up here in Canada (lower mainland of Vancouver) the police already monitor power consumption of homes and apartments for marijuana grow ops. One thing that people don't notice/realize is that a grow op actually has a rather specific power signature. Homes with grow-ops are typically yearly rental/lease agreement homes. The growers themselves do not live at the property. The end result is a static high power draw that keeps the lights and hydropondics gear running 24/7. This is VERY different from even the most excessive of home power uses. Unless you're running a commericaial dishwashing/laundry/whatever out of your home that operates 24/7 you're going to have a VERY different bit of power consumption.

Add on to the fact that it's not the only actual investigation technique. Grow Ops are typcailly seldom attended all the time, so some basic surveillance would reveal the difference between you being a power hog and you growing a crop in your basement.</htmltext>
<tokenext>To a degree , up here in Canada ( lower mainland of Vancouver ) the police already monitor power consumption of homes and apartments for marijuana grow ops .
One thing that people do n't notice/realize is that a grow op actually has a rather specific power signature .
Homes with grow-ops are typically yearly rental/lease agreement homes .
The growers themselves do not live at the property .
The end result is a static high power draw that keeps the lights and hydropondics gear running 24/7 .
This is VERY different from even the most excessive of home power uses .
Unless you 're running a commericaial dishwashing/laundry/whatever out of your home that operates 24/7 you 're going to have a VERY different bit of power consumption .
Add on to the fact that it 's not the only actual investigation technique .
Grow Ops are typcailly seldom attended all the time , so some basic surveillance would reveal the difference between you being a power hog and you growing a crop in your basement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To a degree, up here in Canada (lower mainland of Vancouver) the police already monitor power consumption of homes and apartments for marijuana grow ops.
One thing that people don't notice/realize is that a grow op actually has a rather specific power signature.
Homes with grow-ops are typically yearly rental/lease agreement homes.
The growers themselves do not live at the property.
The end result is a static high power draw that keeps the lights and hydropondics gear running 24/7.
This is VERY different from even the most excessive of home power uses.
Unless you're running a commericaial dishwashing/laundry/whatever out of your home that operates 24/7 you're going to have a VERY different bit of power consumption.
Add on to the fact that it's not the only actual investigation technique.
Grow Ops are typcailly seldom attended all the time, so some basic surveillance would reveal the difference between you being a power hog and you growing a crop in your basement.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30156216</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>commodore64\_love</author>
	<datestamp>1258645800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;&gt;&gt;I've heard of that and there's no compensation.</p><p>If that happened to me I'd sue for recovery of the thousands-of-dollars lost repairing the damaged drywall</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; &gt; &gt; I 've heard of that and there 's no compensation.If that happened to me I 'd sue for recovery of the thousands-of-dollars lost repairing the damaged drywall</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;&gt;&gt;I've heard of that and there's no compensation.If that happened to me I'd sue for recovery of the thousands-of-dollars lost repairing the damaged drywall</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152984</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151940</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257087000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I would think that the use of electricity usage data should play out the same way, but who knows!</p></div><p>I knows!<br>Granting warrants for excessive electricity use is routine in the USA.</p><p>Here's one from 2004: <a href="http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0330044pot1.html" title="thesmokinggun.com">http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0330044pot1.html</a> [thesmokinggun.com]<br>Here's one from 2009: <a href="http://hamptonroads.com/node/510056" title="hamptonroads.com">http://hamptonroads.com/node/510056</a> [hamptonroads.com]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would think that the use of electricity usage data should play out the same way , but who knows ! I knows ! Granting warrants for excessive electricity use is routine in the USA.Here 's one from 2004 : http : //www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0330044pot1.html [ thesmokinggun.com ] Here 's one from 2009 : http : //hamptonroads.com/node/510056 [ hamptonroads.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would think that the use of electricity usage data should play out the same way, but who knows!I knows!Granting warrants for excessive electricity use is routine in the USA.Here's one from 2004: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0330044pot1.html [thesmokinggun.com]Here's one from 2009: http://hamptonroads.com/node/510056 [hamptonroads.com]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30156156</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258645560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nothing new.  They used to bust mob money laundring operations by showing that profits from the company grossly exceeded the possible profit <b>based on the electricity used by the business</b>. In other words, they didn't run their machines enough to manufacture enough products to have enough revenue, so the revenue had to be from an illegal source.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nothing new .
They used to bust mob money laundring operations by showing that profits from the company grossly exceeded the possible profit based on the electricity used by the business .
In other words , they did n't run their machines enough to manufacture enough products to have enough revenue , so the revenue had to be from an illegal source .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nothing new.
They used to bust mob money laundring operations by showing that profits from the company grossly exceeded the possible profit based on the electricity used by the business.
In other words, they didn't run their machines enough to manufacture enough products to have enough revenue, so the revenue had to be from an illegal source.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152244</id>
	<title>Information Age</title>
	<author>Kelzar</author>
	<datestamp>1257088920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think we're going to have to accept that a number of entities are going to have all kinds of information about us.  One potential solution is to create meaningful regulations that balance individual interests/rights against those of corporate entities (corporate in the broadest sense, inc. state entities).  Perhaps something along the lines of the confidentiality that exists between an individual and various professionals/clergymen.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think we 're going to have to accept that a number of entities are going to have all kinds of information about us .
One potential solution is to create meaningful regulations that balance individual interests/rights against those of corporate entities ( corporate in the broadest sense , inc. state entities ) .
Perhaps something along the lines of the confidentiality that exists between an individual and various professionals/clergymen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think we're going to have to accept that a number of entities are going to have all kinds of information about us.
One potential solution is to create meaningful regulations that balance individual interests/rights against those of corporate entities (corporate in the broadest sense, inc. state entities).
Perhaps something along the lines of the confidentiality that exists between an individual and various professionals/clergymen.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153400</id>
	<title>The world has already moved on.</title>
	<author>v(*\_*)vvvv</author>
	<datestamp>1257101880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is no longer about privacy. It is about how to protect us so that we can safely live publicly and putting in place the right triggers for when violations occur.</p><p>The electric companies too are subjected to the new orders of the world. Their activities are just as trackable as ours are to them. In exchange for them tracking us, we should be able to track them with regards to our information, and they should have to pay for their mistakes.</p><p>It may take a long time, but by the time the courts are through with "information breach" lawsuits, the companies will come to the conclusion that holding on to all this information is not worth the risk. As long as the laws pass that prevent them from selling it, trust me, they will destroy it.</p><p><b>There is such a thing as too much information.</b></p><p>PS. Dear Privacy Advocates: They just want to make money, not harm your kids.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is no longer about privacy .
It is about how to protect us so that we can safely live publicly and putting in place the right triggers for when violations occur.The electric companies too are subjected to the new orders of the world .
Their activities are just as trackable as ours are to them .
In exchange for them tracking us , we should be able to track them with regards to our information , and they should have to pay for their mistakes.It may take a long time , but by the time the courts are through with " information breach " lawsuits , the companies will come to the conclusion that holding on to all this information is not worth the risk .
As long as the laws pass that prevent them from selling it , trust me , they will destroy it.There is such a thing as too much information.PS .
Dear Privacy Advocates : They just want to make money , not harm your kids .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is no longer about privacy.
It is about how to protect us so that we can safely live publicly and putting in place the right triggers for when violations occur.The electric companies too are subjected to the new orders of the world.
Their activities are just as trackable as ours are to them.
In exchange for them tracking us, we should be able to track them with regards to our information, and they should have to pay for their mistakes.It may take a long time, but by the time the courts are through with "information breach" lawsuits, the companies will come to the conclusion that holding on to all this information is not worth the risk.
As long as the laws pass that prevent them from selling it, trust me, they will destroy it.There is such a thing as too much information.PS.
Dear Privacy Advocates: They just want to make money, not harm your kids.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153792</id>
	<title>In exchange for stronger privacy laws...</title>
	<author>otter42</author>
	<datestamp>1258663200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A lot of<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.ers are pointing out that this is the logical tradeoff for the gains that smart-metering promises us. Some are suggesting that we do without. I say it makes far more sense to strengthen our privacy laws, so that this kind of thing is so clearly off limits from data sharing that no non-criminal  consider it.</p><p>For example, I'm a member of a local (ballroom) dancing club. I'm organizing a Thanksgiving Dinner, but the privacy laws here are so strong that it was made to me very clear that I *must* delete the club's (snail-)mailing list from my computer after I send out the invitations.</p><p>There are indeed tradeoffs between any level of internet-connected progress and our privacy, but it's shortsighted to think that the only response can be "get your gov't hands off my...!"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A lot of /.ers are pointing out that this is the logical tradeoff for the gains that smart-metering promises us .
Some are suggesting that we do without .
I say it makes far more sense to strengthen our privacy laws , so that this kind of thing is so clearly off limits from data sharing that no non-criminal consider it.For example , I 'm a member of a local ( ballroom ) dancing club .
I 'm organizing a Thanksgiving Dinner , but the privacy laws here are so strong that it was made to me very clear that I * must * delete the club 's ( snail- ) mailing list from my computer after I send out the invitations.There are indeed tradeoffs between any level of internet-connected progress and our privacy , but it 's shortsighted to think that the only response can be " get your gov't hands off my... !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A lot of /.ers are pointing out that this is the logical tradeoff for the gains that smart-metering promises us.
Some are suggesting that we do without.
I say it makes far more sense to strengthen our privacy laws, so that this kind of thing is so clearly off limits from data sharing that no non-criminal  consider it.For example, I'm a member of a local (ballroom) dancing club.
I'm organizing a Thanksgiving Dinner, but the privacy laws here are so strong that it was made to me very clear that I *must* delete the club's (snail-)mailing list from my computer after I send out the invitations.There are indeed tradeoffs between any level of internet-connected progress and our privacy, but it's shortsighted to think that the only response can be "get your gov't hands off my...!
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152220</id>
	<title>Alberta Court of Appeal disagreed with you</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257088680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://www.law.ualberta.ca/centres/ccs/news/?id=332" title="ualberta.ca" rel="nofollow">http://www.law.ualberta.ca/centres/ccs/news/?id=332</a> [ualberta.ca]</p><p>"The Drug Unit asked Enmax, the local electricity provider, to install a digital recording ammeter (DRA) to record power consumption in Gomboc&rsquo;s house. Enmax complied without insisting on a warrant. After five days, Enmax gave the police a graph that showed Gomboc&rsquo;s use of electricity was consistent with running a grow operation. [...] At trial, the Crown conceded that police could not have obtained a search warrant without the data from Enmax."</p><p>So, at least in Canada, not only has someone <i>already been</i> subject to a search warrant over electrical usage but the appeals court has ruled it is legal to base a search warrant on someone's electrical usage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.law.ualberta.ca/centres/ccs/news/ ? id = 332 [ ualberta.ca ] " The Drug Unit asked Enmax , the local electricity provider , to install a digital recording ammeter ( DRA ) to record power consumption in Gomboc    s house .
Enmax complied without insisting on a warrant .
After five days , Enmax gave the police a graph that showed Gomboc    s use of electricity was consistent with running a grow operation .
[ ... ] At trial , the Crown conceded that police could not have obtained a search warrant without the data from Enmax .
" So , at least in Canada , not only has someone already been subject to a search warrant over electrical usage but the appeals court has ruled it is legal to base a search warrant on someone 's electrical usage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.law.ualberta.ca/centres/ccs/news/?id=332 [ualberta.ca]"The Drug Unit asked Enmax, the local electricity provider, to install a digital recording ammeter (DRA) to record power consumption in Gomboc’s house.
Enmax complied without insisting on a warrant.
After five days, Enmax gave the police a graph that showed Gomboc’s use of electricity was consistent with running a grow operation.
[...] At trial, the Crown conceded that police could not have obtained a search warrant without the data from Enmax.
"So, at least in Canada, not only has someone already been subject to a search warrant over electrical usage but the appeals court has ruled it is legal to base a search warrant on someone's electrical usage.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151914</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152234</id>
	<title>Oh bullshit</title>
	<author>Ralph Spoilsport</author>
	<datestamp>1257088860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Just use an uninterrupted power supply system. It can be built to draw current only when the batteries are low, and that can be programmed in, so that the actual draw of electricity is orthogonal to the use of the electricity. Think kind of like a Prius.
<p>
bunch of arm-waving idiocy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just use an uninterrupted power supply system .
It can be built to draw current only when the batteries are low , and that can be programmed in , so that the actual draw of electricity is orthogonal to the use of the electricity .
Think kind of like a Prius .
bunch of arm-waving idiocy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just use an uninterrupted power supply system.
It can be built to draw current only when the batteries are low, and that can be programmed in, so that the actual draw of electricity is orthogonal to the use of the electricity.
Think kind of like a Prius.
bunch of arm-waving idiocy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152406</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257090060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Even if they legalize it, it will still be taxed and if it's taxed people will still be growing it illegally.  However, I'd like to think the government has better things to do.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Even if they legalize it , it will still be taxed and if it 's taxed people will still be growing it illegally .
However , I 'd like to think the government has better things to do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even if they legalize it, it will still be taxed and if it's taxed people will still be growing it illegally.
However, I'd like to think the government has better things to do.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152188</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153302</id>
	<title>Re:My CA townhouse got "smartmetered" last week.</title>
	<author>cstacy</author>
	<datestamp>1257100620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>PG&amp;E is using [...]IP and "industry standard crypto" over a two way radio link to a network running their software.  It can be remotely tweaked and have software upgrades remotely loaded.  (I can hear the cypherpunks booting up already.)</p><p>It records and reports high-time-resolution information about the utility use.  It can be used to shut the power off in case of "billing trouble".</p></div><p>So rather than break into the control network through a virus or physically, distributed denial of electricity and other games can be played via radio control.   It's a good thing they're probably using SSL, since that can't be hacked!  Oh, wait...</p><p>The funnier part will be when they claim "billing trouble" rather than figuring out that your meter has been attacked by someone with a vendetta, or admitting that they've been massively compromised.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>PG&amp;E is using [ ... ] IP and " industry standard crypto " over a two way radio link to a network running their software .
It can be remotely tweaked and have software upgrades remotely loaded .
( I can hear the cypherpunks booting up already .
) It records and reports high-time-resolution information about the utility use .
It can be used to shut the power off in case of " billing trouble " .So rather than break into the control network through a virus or physically , distributed denial of electricity and other games can be played via radio control .
It 's a good thing they 're probably using SSL , since that ca n't be hacked !
Oh , wait...The funnier part will be when they claim " billing trouble " rather than figuring out that your meter has been attacked by someone with a vendetta , or admitting that they 've been massively compromised .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PG&amp;E is using [...]IP and "industry standard crypto" over a two way radio link to a network running their software.
It can be remotely tweaked and have software upgrades remotely loaded.
(I can hear the cypherpunks booting up already.
)It records and reports high-time-resolution information about the utility use.
It can be used to shut the power off in case of "billing trouble".So rather than break into the control network through a virus or physically, distributed denial of electricity and other games can be played via radio control.
It's a good thing they're probably using SSL, since that can't be hacked!
Oh, wait...The funnier part will be when they claim "billing trouble" rather than figuring out that your meter has been attacked by someone with a vendetta, or admitting that they've been massively compromised.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152136</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152022</id>
	<title>Not needed</title>
	<author>gr8\_phk</author>
	<datestamp>1257087480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>What they need to do is broadcast the present price of electricity and have the meter bill accordingly. Then get the total bill every month. This enables the "consumer" to regulate their usage to reduce cost (smoothing usage as the utilities want). It also avoids the need for large amounts of data sent back. There are usually simple solutions, and the fact that companies don't use the simple solutions generally points to an agenda other than what is claimed.</htmltext>
<tokenext>What they need to do is broadcast the present price of electricity and have the meter bill accordingly .
Then get the total bill every month .
This enables the " consumer " to regulate their usage to reduce cost ( smoothing usage as the utilities want ) .
It also avoids the need for large amounts of data sent back .
There are usually simple solutions , and the fact that companies do n't use the simple solutions generally points to an agenda other than what is claimed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What they need to do is broadcast the present price of electricity and have the meter bill accordingly.
Then get the total bill every month.
This enables the "consumer" to regulate their usage to reduce cost (smoothing usage as the utilities want).
It also avoids the need for large amounts of data sent back.
There are usually simple solutions, and the fact that companies don't use the simple solutions generally points to an agenda other than what is claimed.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152390</id>
	<title>Re:Kyllo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257089940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It should be a 4th amendment issue, but it is not.</p><p>If your power use suddenly spikes, expect the cops at your door to ask about what you're doing. Had this happen in college when a roommate setup a bunch of tropical fish tanks.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It should be a 4th amendment issue , but it is not.If your power use suddenly spikes , expect the cops at your door to ask about what you 're doing .
Had this happen in college when a roommate setup a bunch of tropical fish tanks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It should be a 4th amendment issue, but it is not.If your power use suddenly spikes, expect the cops at your door to ask about what you're doing.
Had this happen in college when a roommate setup a bunch of tropical fish tanks.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30151806</parent>
</comment>
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--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30159896
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30156156
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152236
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152984
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30156216
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153016
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30155804
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153780
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30153368
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_18_2331241.30152658
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