<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_11_13_1715202</id>
	<title>Bernie Madoff's Programmers Arrested</title>
	<author>ScuttleMonkey</author>
	<datestamp>1258102500000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>ZipK writes <i>"With their former boss cooling his heels on a 150-year sentence, programmers Jerome O'Hara and George Perez are now <a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1346294620091113">in the US Attorney's crosshairs</a>. They've been arrested and charged with criminal conspiracy,  and 'accused of producing false documents and trading records at Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC in New York.'  Apparently Madoff's fraud was too large and too complex to be foisted entirely by hand."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>ZipK writes " With their former boss cooling his heels on a 150-year sentence , programmers Jerome O'Hara and George Perez are now in the US Attorney 's crosshairs .
They 've been arrested and charged with criminal conspiracy , and 'accused of producing false documents and trading records at Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC in New York .
' Apparently Madoff 's fraud was too large and too complex to be foisted entirely by hand .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>ZipK writes "With their former boss cooling his heels on a 150-year sentence, programmers Jerome O'Hara and George Perez are now in the US Attorney's crosshairs.
They've been arrested and charged with criminal conspiracy,  and 'accused of producing false documents and trading records at Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC in New York.
'  Apparently Madoff's fraud was too large and too complex to be foisted entirely by hand.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092064</id>
	<title>Re:What's the motivation?</title>
	<author>NoYob</author>
	<datestamp>1258108140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Not necessarily. <p>After the Y2K and the 2001 tech crash, there wasn't as much of a demand for coders, especially with most of the new projects being web based - if you were a C/C++ coder, there were more coders than jobs.*  Also, offshoring was picking up steam and then there is the age factor. When you get above 40, folks start wondering why you're still wanting to code or they think you're too old to be doing the 80+ hour week crunch periods or you're not willing (or too smart) to do that - either way, there is some age-ism in tech. Yeah, yeah, I know there are folks who are in their 60s working at jobs coding - I knew <i>one</i> myself, but they're not the norm.</p><p>Now, when your back is against the wall and someone puts a shit load of cash under your nose doing something that may or may not be ethical or even legal, you may do it. I wouldn't judge these guys unless you've been in their shoes. </p><p>The other thing is, I'm sure Madoff did NOT tell them upfront that what they were doing was illegal. He or his cohorts just gave those guys a programming assignment and didn't give specifics. Later on, those guys probably had a good idea what was going on, though but then, who knows what was going through their heads. Maybe, "Hey, we haven't been caught after all these years. WTF!"</p><p>*Look now, Microsoft has even laid people off! Times are rough! There are job postings at a few companies I know of and they're telling me that they're getting bombarded by very qualified people. To weed them out, they're getting ridiculously picky.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not necessarily .
After the Y2K and the 2001 tech crash , there was n't as much of a demand for coders , especially with most of the new projects being web based - if you were a C/C + + coder , there were more coders than jobs .
* Also , offshoring was picking up steam and then there is the age factor .
When you get above 40 , folks start wondering why you 're still wanting to code or they think you 're too old to be doing the 80 + hour week crunch periods or you 're not willing ( or too smart ) to do that - either way , there is some age-ism in tech .
Yeah , yeah , I know there are folks who are in their 60s working at jobs coding - I knew one myself , but they 're not the norm.Now , when your back is against the wall and someone puts a shit load of cash under your nose doing something that may or may not be ethical or even legal , you may do it .
I would n't judge these guys unless you 've been in their shoes .
The other thing is , I 'm sure Madoff did NOT tell them upfront that what they were doing was illegal .
He or his cohorts just gave those guys a programming assignment and did n't give specifics .
Later on , those guys probably had a good idea what was going on , though but then , who knows what was going through their heads .
Maybe , " Hey , we have n't been caught after all these years .
WTF ! " * Look now , Microsoft has even laid people off !
Times are rough !
There are job postings at a few companies I know of and they 're telling me that they 're getting bombarded by very qualified people .
To weed them out , they 're getting ridiculously picky .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not necessarily.
After the Y2K and the 2001 tech crash, there wasn't as much of a demand for coders, especially with most of the new projects being web based - if you were a C/C++ coder, there were more coders than jobs.
*  Also, offshoring was picking up steam and then there is the age factor.
When you get above 40, folks start wondering why you're still wanting to code or they think you're too old to be doing the 80+ hour week crunch periods or you're not willing (or too smart) to do that - either way, there is some age-ism in tech.
Yeah, yeah, I know there are folks who are in their 60s working at jobs coding - I knew one myself, but they're not the norm.Now, when your back is against the wall and someone puts a shit load of cash under your nose doing something that may or may not be ethical or even legal, you may do it.
I wouldn't judge these guys unless you've been in their shoes.
The other thing is, I'm sure Madoff did NOT tell them upfront that what they were doing was illegal.
He or his cohorts just gave those guys a programming assignment and didn't give specifics.
Later on, those guys probably had a good idea what was going on, though but then, who knows what was going through their heads.
Maybe, "Hey, we haven't been caught after all these years.
WTF!"*Look now, Microsoft has even laid people off!
Times are rough!
There are job postings at a few companies I know of and they're telling me that they're getting bombarded by very qualified people.
To weed them out, they're getting ridiculously picky.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30102358</id>
	<title>Re:Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>DarkOx</author>
	<datestamp>1258205280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Its not remotely the same.  The gun maker is not responsible because there are legal uses for the gun and he has no idea it will be eventually used in crime.  <br>
&nbsp; <br>If he did say sell you a gun after you showed up at the factory outlet store and said, <i>"hey I need something to kill my wife and knock over the bank afterward can you recommend something?"</i> that would be another matter, they would be complicit in the crimes.<br>
&nbsp; <br>You're sysadmin example is pretty much the same thing.  Lets pretend the server was a proliant, HP is certainly not culpable; you are if you *know* or reasonably should *know* the server is being used for crime and you are enabling it to operate.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Its not remotely the same .
The gun maker is not responsible because there are legal uses for the gun and he has no idea it will be eventually used in crime .
  If he did say sell you a gun after you showed up at the factory outlet store and said , " hey I need something to kill my wife and knock over the bank afterward can you recommend something ?
" that would be another matter , they would be complicit in the crimes .
  You 're sysadmin example is pretty much the same thing .
Lets pretend the server was a proliant , HP is certainly not culpable ; you are if you * know * or reasonably should * know * the server is being used for crime and you are enabling it to operate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Its not remotely the same.
The gun maker is not responsible because there are legal uses for the gun and he has no idea it will be eventually used in crime.
  If he did say sell you a gun after you showed up at the factory outlet store and said, "hey I need something to kill my wife and knock over the bank afterward can you recommend something?
" that would be another matter, they would be complicit in the crimes.
  You're sysadmin example is pretty much the same thing.
Lets pretend the server was a proliant, HP is certainly not culpable; you are if you *know* or reasonably should *know* the server is being used for crime and you are enabling it to operate.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30093620</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091962</id>
	<title>Erpheus</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258107480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Win free money by searching with google. 3cents per search. Regiter at:</p><p>http://www.search-pay.com/?r=1270</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Win free money by searching with google .
3cents per search .
Regiter at : http : //www.search-pay.com/ ? r = 1270</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Win free money by searching with google.
3cents per search.
Regiter at:http://www.search-pay.com/?r=1270</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092362</id>
	<title>Re:Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>OnlineAlias</author>
	<datestamp>1258109700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, the problem is they were sending out statements.  Those statements were theoretically based on input from the markets, after the amounts were made bigger by the black box which was Madoff's investment "strategy".  Once the black box was determined to be a fraud, the programmers were done, because they implemented the black box. At that point<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,no amount of deleting was going to get them out of being implicated.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , the problem is they were sending out statements .
Those statements were theoretically based on input from the markets , after the amounts were made bigger by the black box which was Madoff 's investment " strategy " .
Once the black box was determined to be a fraud , the programmers were done , because they implemented the black box .
At that point ,no amount of deleting was going to get them out of being implicated .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, the problem is they were sending out statements.
Those statements were theoretically based on input from the markets, after the amounts were made bigger by the black box which was Madoff's investment "strategy".
Once the black box was determined to be a fraud, the programmers were done, because they implemented the black box.
At that point ,no amount of deleting was going to get them out of being implicated.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091880</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091966</id>
	<title>Re:Another case of bad parenting?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258107480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're wrong, a recent study shows that candy is the culprit here, the more candy you are given as a child the more likely that you'll become a criminal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're wrong , a recent study shows that candy is the culprit here , the more candy you are given as a child the more likely that you 'll become a criminal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're wrong, a recent study shows that candy is the culprit here, the more candy you are given as a child the more likely that you'll become a criminal.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092002</id>
	<title>Re:What's the motivation?</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1258107720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're a computer programmer, in your mid 40s. Finding work is difficult for a programmer after 40, every one around you is becoming stinking rich, law enforcement seems to not pay attention when things go well, you have kids in college, and you boss is pressuring.</p><p>Every day you go in and deal with these people, everyday they lie and cut corners and get rich without any legal issues.</p><p>What they did was wrong, but I can certainly understand why they did it, and I can't say for 100\% I wouldn't have done the same thing. I like to think I wouldn't, but still.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're a computer programmer , in your mid 40s .
Finding work is difficult for a programmer after 40 , every one around you is becoming stinking rich , law enforcement seems to not pay attention when things go well , you have kids in college , and you boss is pressuring.Every day you go in and deal with these people , everyday they lie and cut corners and get rich without any legal issues.What they did was wrong , but I can certainly understand why they did it , and I ca n't say for 100 \ % I would n't have done the same thing .
I like to think I would n't , but still .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're a computer programmer, in your mid 40s.
Finding work is difficult for a programmer after 40, every one around you is becoming stinking rich, law enforcement seems to not pay attention when things go well, you have kids in college, and you boss is pressuring.Every day you go in and deal with these people, everyday they lie and cut corners and get rich without any legal issues.What they did was wrong, but I can certainly understand why they did it, and I can't say for 100\% I wouldn't have done the same thing.
I like to think I wouldn't, but still.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092200</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>werfele</author>
	<datestamp>1258108980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Unless the programmers were committing fraud by asking people for investment money with no intention to return it, how are they breaking the law?</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
I understand Madoff would provide quarterly statements showing a more-or-less constant rate of return, listing fictitious trades that would justify the rate of return, using knowledge of actual prices in the past quarter to get the numbers to come out just right (which is easy enough in hindsight).  I'm all for presuming these guys innocent, but I think your outrage is misplaced.  It's hard to imagine a spec for this software that wouldn't be at least a bit suspicious, so you can hardly blame them for looking into the programmers.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless the programmers were committing fraud by asking people for investment money with no intention to return it , how are they breaking the law ?
I understand Madoff would provide quarterly statements showing a more-or-less constant rate of return , listing fictitious trades that would justify the rate of return , using knowledge of actual prices in the past quarter to get the numbers to come out just right ( which is easy enough in hindsight ) .
I 'm all for presuming these guys innocent , but I think your outrage is misplaced .
It 's hard to imagine a spec for this software that would n't be at least a bit suspicious , so you can hardly blame them for looking into the programmers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless the programmers were committing fraud by asking people for investment money with no intention to return it, how are they breaking the law?
I understand Madoff would provide quarterly statements showing a more-or-less constant rate of return, listing fictitious trades that would justify the rate of return, using knowledge of actual prices in the past quarter to get the numbers to come out just right (which is easy enough in hindsight).
I'm all for presuming these guys innocent, but I think your outrage is misplaced.
It's hard to imagine a spec for this software that wouldn't be at least a bit suspicious, so you can hardly blame them for looking into the programmers.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091928</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>Dunbal</author>
	<datestamp>1258107240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Because the US is a nation of laws</i></p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; George Bush proved that wrong.</p><p><i>you have to break a law first before they can go after you.</i></p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Unless the programmers were committing fraud by asking people for investment money with no intention to return it, how are they breaking the law? I'm unaware that Madoff was hacking people's computers, creating viruses, or even downloading copyrighted movies.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; If you're a programmer hired to write a financial or accounting program, and never given information as to how that program is going to be actually used - how are you breaking the law? Hell if this logic applies, go after Microsoft too because I'm sure that Madoff used Microsoft Word to send mail to some of his clients.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; OK perhaps there's some detail we don't know, and will find out at trial - perhaps some programmers were in on the fact that it was a scam. However this reeks to me of overzealous prosecutors trying to spread as much blame around as possible. Hell they could start with arresting the SEC for never investigating the guy, in that case.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because the US is a nation of laws       George Bush proved that wrong.you have to break a law first before they can go after you .
      Unless the programmers were committing fraud by asking people for investment money with no intention to return it , how are they breaking the law ?
I 'm unaware that Madoff was hacking people 's computers , creating viruses , or even downloading copyrighted movies .
      If you 're a programmer hired to write a financial or accounting program , and never given information as to how that program is going to be actually used - how are you breaking the law ?
Hell if this logic applies , go after Microsoft too because I 'm sure that Madoff used Microsoft Word to send mail to some of his clients .
      OK perhaps there 's some detail we do n't know , and will find out at trial - perhaps some programmers were in on the fact that it was a scam .
However this reeks to me of overzealous prosecutors trying to spread as much blame around as possible .
Hell they could start with arresting the SEC for never investigating the guy , in that case .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because the US is a nation of laws
      George Bush proved that wrong.you have to break a law first before they can go after you.
      Unless the programmers were committing fraud by asking people for investment money with no intention to return it, how are they breaking the law?
I'm unaware that Madoff was hacking people's computers, creating viruses, or even downloading copyrighted movies.
      If you're a programmer hired to write a financial or accounting program, and never given information as to how that program is going to be actually used - how are you breaking the law?
Hell if this logic applies, go after Microsoft too because I'm sure that Madoff used Microsoft Word to send mail to some of his clients.
      OK perhaps there's some detail we don't know, and will find out at trial - perhaps some programmers were in on the fact that it was a scam.
However this reeks to me of overzealous prosecutors trying to spread as much blame around as possible.
Hell they could start with arresting the SEC for never investigating the guy, in that case.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091800</id>
	<title>What's the motivation?</title>
	<author>cryfreedomlove</author>
	<datestamp>1258106760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are so many great opportunities out there for making a legitimate living programming that it makes me wonder why these guys volunteered to spend the best years of their lives stealing from people.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are so many great opportunities out there for making a legitimate living programming that it makes me wonder why these guys volunteered to spend the best years of their lives stealing from people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are so many great opportunities out there for making a legitimate living programming that it makes me wonder why these guys volunteered to spend the best years of their lives stealing from people.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091950</id>
	<title>Re:Another case of bad parenting?</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1258107420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Assuming they knowingly did something illegal.</p><p>Of course, they work with computers, so they will probably get 450 year and have their jury railroaded.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Assuming they knowingly did something illegal.Of course , they work with computers , so they will probably get 450 year and have their jury railroaded .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Assuming they knowingly did something illegal.Of course, they work with computers, so they will probably get 450 year and have their jury railroaded.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092846</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>bill\_mcgonigle</author>
	<datestamp>1258112880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> <i>The Goldman programmers aren't the problem. The lobbyists are.</i></p></div> </blockquote><p>Then surely the programmers shall hang.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The Goldman programmers are n't the problem .
The lobbyists are .
Then surely the programmers shall hang .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> The Goldman programmers aren't the problem.
The lobbyists are.
Then surely the programmers shall hang.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091774</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30095110</id>
	<title>Re:Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>Machtyn</author>
	<datestamp>1258134660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is frighteningly close to making me think about automata.  I didn't like that class too much.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is frighteningly close to making me think about automata .
I did n't like that class too much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is frighteningly close to making me think about automata.
I didn't like that class too much.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092004</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092004</id>
	<title>Re:Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258107720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't forget to destroy the evidence of your destruction of the evidence of the destruction of the evidence and backups and its backups and its backups.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't forget to destroy the evidence of your destruction of the evidence of the destruction of the evidence and backups and its backups and its backups .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't forget to destroy the evidence of your destruction of the evidence of the destruction of the evidence and backups and its backups and its backups.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091880</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091736</id>
	<title>Another case of bad parenting?</title>
	<author>jhfry</author>
	<datestamp>1258106340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I always tell my kids that "so-and-so made me do it" is no defense.  And I'm sure nearly every parent has taught their children that for generations.  I hope these guys roast for not listening to their parents!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I always tell my kids that " so-and-so made me do it " is no defense .
And I 'm sure nearly every parent has taught their children that for generations .
I hope these guys roast for not listening to their parents !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I always tell my kids that "so-and-so made me do it" is no defense.
And I'm sure nearly every parent has taught their children that for generations.
I hope these guys roast for not listening to their parents!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091834</id>
	<title>Well, of course.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258106820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
If you've followed the details of the Madoff scandal, it was obvious that it required substantial computer support.
</p><p>
Each month, Madoff's investors got statements which showed fictitious trades and fictitious profits.  The phony trades were for real stocks, with prices which were (almost) real.  But the trades were chosen retrospectively, which is like betting on a race after it's run.  So superficially reasonable statements came out.
This was all generated on an AS-400 that had been in use for this for several decades.
</p><p>
The software wasn't very good.  If they'd been better at it, they could have generated statements which showed trades which exactly matched real trades of others (from the "tape"; trades are public but traders are anonymous), delivered trade confirmations every day, and still shown phony profits just by picking trades randomly distributed around the 75\% of each day's trades.  That would survive external examination, but not a real audit.  Close looks at Madoff statements show trades which could not possibly have occurred; the price is outside the day's trading range.  Sloppy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 've followed the details of the Madoff scandal , it was obvious that it required substantial computer support .
Each month , Madoff 's investors got statements which showed fictitious trades and fictitious profits .
The phony trades were for real stocks , with prices which were ( almost ) real .
But the trades were chosen retrospectively , which is like betting on a race after it 's run .
So superficially reasonable statements came out .
This was all generated on an AS-400 that had been in use for this for several decades .
The software was n't very good .
If they 'd been better at it , they could have generated statements which showed trades which exactly matched real trades of others ( from the " tape " ; trades are public but traders are anonymous ) , delivered trade confirmations every day , and still shown phony profits just by picking trades randomly distributed around the 75 \ % of each day 's trades .
That would survive external examination , but not a real audit .
Close looks at Madoff statements show trades which could not possibly have occurred ; the price is outside the day 's trading range .
Sloppy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
If you've followed the details of the Madoff scandal, it was obvious that it required substantial computer support.
Each month, Madoff's investors got statements which showed fictitious trades and fictitious profits.
The phony trades were for real stocks, with prices which were (almost) real.
But the trades were chosen retrospectively, which is like betting on a race after it's run.
So superficially reasonable statements came out.
This was all generated on an AS-400 that had been in use for this for several decades.
The software wasn't very good.
If they'd been better at it, they could have generated statements which showed trades which exactly matched real trades of others (from the "tape"; trades are public but traders are anonymous), delivered trade confirmations every day, and still shown phony profits just by picking trades randomly distributed around the 75\% of each day's trades.
That would survive external examination, but not a real audit.
Close looks at Madoff statements show trades which could not possibly have occurred; the price is outside the day's trading range.
Sloppy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092062</id>
	<title>Re:What's the motivation?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258108140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What do you mean?   So a good software guy makes some low 6-figure salary,  Madoff's guys made close to 7-figures, if not more.  Even the secretary there made over 200k..</p><p>A good software guy can buy a house in the suburbs, not too far from the office and maybe drive a Lexus.  These guys lived in Manhattan and drove $100k+ cars, probably had a couple.   You might have a babysitter or day care, they have au pairs.   You have some 401k matching up to a few percent,  they get maxed out and then they get to invest in the hedge fund that was doing consistent over 12\% returns, as a perk..   Of course there are opportunities...  your wife might work while theirs can stay home with the kids (when they aren't at the gym) and they still bring home more money.    Your kid turns 16 and you might buy an old beater car to work on and get them around,  they can get their kids brand new Mercedes with all the safety features you can imagine.   We're talking about lifestyle altering amounts of money here.  The kinds of money that alters you kids' lifestyles.</p><p>What's funny to me,  so the engineers take the drop,   they take notes, they knew what was up,  they probably helped cover it up.  Damn near everyone in the office knew what was going on and probably the managers of most of the feeder funds did.  At least a couple did some due diligence, they had to, competitors suspected it was a scam.   If they were remotely intelligent about it,  they hid some cash away somewhere so their families will be taken care of.  You'll see very few bankers go down for this though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What do you mean ?
So a good software guy makes some low 6-figure salary , Madoff 's guys made close to 7-figures , if not more .
Even the secretary there made over 200k..A good software guy can buy a house in the suburbs , not too far from the office and maybe drive a Lexus .
These guys lived in Manhattan and drove $ 100k + cars , probably had a couple .
You might have a babysitter or day care , they have au pairs .
You have some 401k matching up to a few percent , they get maxed out and then they get to invest in the hedge fund that was doing consistent over 12 \ % returns , as a perk.. Of course there are opportunities... your wife might work while theirs can stay home with the kids ( when they are n't at the gym ) and they still bring home more money .
Your kid turns 16 and you might buy an old beater car to work on and get them around , they can get their kids brand new Mercedes with all the safety features you can imagine .
We 're talking about lifestyle altering amounts of money here .
The kinds of money that alters you kids ' lifestyles.What 's funny to me , so the engineers take the drop , they take notes , they knew what was up , they probably helped cover it up .
Damn near everyone in the office knew what was going on and probably the managers of most of the feeder funds did .
At least a couple did some due diligence , they had to , competitors suspected it was a scam .
If they were remotely intelligent about it , they hid some cash away somewhere so their families will be taken care of .
You 'll see very few bankers go down for this though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What do you mean?
So a good software guy makes some low 6-figure salary,  Madoff's guys made close to 7-figures, if not more.
Even the secretary there made over 200k..A good software guy can buy a house in the suburbs, not too far from the office and maybe drive a Lexus.
These guys lived in Manhattan and drove $100k+ cars, probably had a couple.
You might have a babysitter or day care, they have au pairs.
You have some 401k matching up to a few percent,  they get maxed out and then they get to invest in the hedge fund that was doing consistent over 12\% returns, as a perk..   Of course there are opportunities...  your wife might work while theirs can stay home with the kids (when they aren't at the gym) and they still bring home more money.
Your kid turns 16 and you might buy an old beater car to work on and get them around,  they can get their kids brand new Mercedes with all the safety features you can imagine.
We're talking about lifestyle altering amounts of money here.
The kinds of money that alters you kids' lifestyles.What's funny to me,  so the engineers take the drop,   they take notes, they knew what was up,  they probably helped cover it up.
Damn near everyone in the office knew what was going on and probably the managers of most of the feeder funds did.
At least a couple did some due diligence, they had to, competitors suspected it was a scam.
If they were remotely intelligent about it,  they hid some cash away somewhere so their families will be taken care of.
You'll see very few bankers go down for this though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30093182</id>
	<title>George P&#233;rez going to jail?</title>
	<author>JoshDM</author>
	<datestamp>1258115100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh no!  Now how will comic book readers get new awesome multi-page spreads of thousands of comic book characters intricately detailed all posing in action shots and/or interacting?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh no !
Now how will comic book readers get new awesome multi-page spreads of thousands of comic book characters intricately detailed all posing in action shots and/or interacting ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh no!
Now how will comic book readers get new awesome multi-page spreads of thousands of comic book characters intricately detailed all posing in action shots and/or interacting?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092360</id>
	<title>The two programmers are off the hook</title>
	<author>tds67</author>
	<datestamp>1258109700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY.   The software is licensed &ldquo;as-is.&rdquo;  You bear the risk of using it.  Madoffsoft gives no express warranties, guarantees or conditions.  To the extent permitted under your local laws, Madoffsoft excludes the implied warranties of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose and non-infringement.</htmltext>
<tokenext>DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY .
The software is licensed    as-is.    You bear the risk of using it .
Madoffsoft gives no express warranties , guarantees or conditions .
To the extent permitted under your local laws , Madoffsoft excludes the implied warranties of merchantability , fitness for a particular purpose and non-infringement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY.
The software is licensed “as-is.”  You bear the risk of using it.
Madoffsoft gives no express warranties, guarantees or conditions.
To the extent permitted under your local laws, Madoffsoft excludes the implied warranties of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose and non-infringement.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30099328</id>
	<title>Re:And this, boys and girls....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258226580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and end every command line with ; rm -f ~/.*history</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and end every command line with ; rm -f ~ / .
* history</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and end every command line with ; rm -f ~/.
*history</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092528</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091974</id>
	<title>Re:Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>confused one</author>
	<datestamp>1258107480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>this things so big, the only way to destroy all the evidence is to hack into Russian missile command and launch the nukes aimed at the U.S. -- Oh, and a well timed trip to a nice country somewhere in the southern hemisphere might be a good idea.</htmltext>
<tokenext>this things so big , the only way to destroy all the evidence is to hack into Russian missile command and launch the nukes aimed at the U.S. -- Oh , and a well timed trip to a nice country somewhere in the southern hemisphere might be a good idea .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>this things so big, the only way to destroy all the evidence is to hack into Russian missile command and launch the nukes aimed at the U.S. -- Oh, and a well timed trip to a nice country somewhere in the southern hemisphere might be a good idea.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091684</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30106294</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>arekusu\_ou</author>
	<datestamp>1258306680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is a matter of self-interest.  Most religion to some degree is based on "do this or you won't get this", "behave this way or you'll be left out".  Some religion like *coughs* Catholicism, shell out "eternal paradise" and "eternal suffering" and "immortal soul" for following their rules strictly.</p><p>I was raised Catholic with a heavy hand, I mildly learnt about Judaism, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhism, Shinto, Wiccan, mostly out of curiosity and comparison purposes.  Even read through half the bible mostly out of boredom, but parts of it was "required".</p><p>Be meek, humble, generous.</p><p>Matthew 5<br>"When he saw the crowds, he went up the mountain, and after he had sat down, his disciples came to him.  He began to teach them, saying"</p><p>The Beatitudes<br>Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.<br>Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.<br>Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land.<br>Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.<br>Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.<br>Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.<br>Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.</p><p>It's all about self-interest, our immortal soul, etc.  Sure some are zealots taking the word of prophets too far.  Sure some self-interest isn't particularly bad, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's not self-interest.</p><p>Even the most benevolent, they help the poor and needy because it makes them FEEL good and they want to feel GOOD.  That they're doing good, that they're helping others.  That's self-interest.  It's not particularly selfish or self-centered.</p><p>But when you had those "behavior" brow-beat into you for fear of god, or love of god, or who knows what you delude yourself into thinking.  It became self-interest.</p><p>A nice segway, I like using TV as an example on life.  Friends episode with Phoebe and her obsession with a selfless deed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is a matter of self-interest .
Most religion to some degree is based on " do this or you wo n't get this " , " behave this way or you 'll be left out " .
Some religion like * coughs * Catholicism , shell out " eternal paradise " and " eternal suffering " and " immortal soul " for following their rules strictly.I was raised Catholic with a heavy hand , I mildly learnt about Judaism , Muslim , Hindu , Buddhism , Shinto , Wiccan , mostly out of curiosity and comparison purposes .
Even read through half the bible mostly out of boredom , but parts of it was " required " .Be meek , humble , generous.Matthew 5 " When he saw the crowds , he went up the mountain , and after he had sat down , his disciples came to him .
He began to teach them , saying " The BeatitudesBlessed are the poor in spirit , for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.Blessed are they who mourn , for they will be comforted.Blessed are the meek , for they will inherit the land.Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness , for they will be satisfied.Blessed are the merciful , for they will be shown mercy.Blessed are the clean of heart , for they will see God.Blessed are the peacemakers , for they will be called children of God.It 's all about self-interest , our immortal soul , etc .
Sure some are zealots taking the word of prophets too far .
Sure some self-interest is n't particularly bad , but do n't fool yourself into thinking it 's not self-interest.Even the most benevolent , they help the poor and needy because it makes them FEEL good and they want to feel GOOD .
That they 're doing good , that they 're helping others .
That 's self-interest .
It 's not particularly selfish or self-centered.But when you had those " behavior " brow-beat into you for fear of god , or love of god , or who knows what you delude yourself into thinking .
It became self-interest.A nice segway , I like using TV as an example on life .
Friends episode with Phoebe and her obsession with a selfless deed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is a matter of self-interest.
Most religion to some degree is based on "do this or you won't get this", "behave this way or you'll be left out".
Some religion like *coughs* Catholicism, shell out "eternal paradise" and "eternal suffering" and "immortal soul" for following their rules strictly.I was raised Catholic with a heavy hand, I mildly learnt about Judaism, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhism, Shinto, Wiccan, mostly out of curiosity and comparison purposes.
Even read through half the bible mostly out of boredom, but parts of it was "required".Be meek, humble, generous.Matthew 5"When he saw the crowds, he went up the mountain, and after he had sat down, his disciples came to him.
He began to teach them, saying"The BeatitudesBlessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land.Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.It's all about self-interest, our immortal soul, etc.
Sure some are zealots taking the word of prophets too far.
Sure some self-interest isn't particularly bad, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's not self-interest.Even the most benevolent, they help the poor and needy because it makes them FEEL good and they want to feel GOOD.
That they're doing good, that they're helping others.
That's self-interest.
It's not particularly selfish or self-centered.But when you had those "behavior" brow-beat into you for fear of god, or love of god, or who knows what you delude yourself into thinking.
It became self-interest.A nice segway, I like using TV as an example on life.
Friends episode with Phoebe and her obsession with a selfless deed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092152</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30095376</id>
	<title>Bah, they'll just...</title>
	<author>caywen</author>
	<datestamp>1258138620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bah, they'll just blame it on Bernie Madoff's QA like they always do.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bah , they 'll just blame it on Bernie Madoff 's QA like they always do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bah, they'll just blame it on Bernie Madoff's QA like they always do.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091778</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>J4</author>
	<datestamp>1258106640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bloomberg is the guy to nail. It all started with his magic box.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bloomberg is the guy to nail .
It all started with his magic box .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bloomberg is the guy to nail.
It all started with his magic box.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091978</id>
	<title>M.O.N.E.Y.</title>
	<author>wiredog</author>
	<datestamp>1258107480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's the usual reason.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's the usual reason .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's the usual reason.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30093620</id>
	<title>Re:Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>ivoras</author>
	<datestamp>1258118400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Isn't this turning into a "would you blame the gun factory for murder" kind of thing? If they did what they've been asked / payed to do, from given specification, what exactly are they guilty of?</p><p>OTOH, is a sysadmin taking care of a server (the usual - network, power, disk drives, backups, etc.) guilty if he knows the server issues fraudulent bank orders and doesn't report it? Seems kind of gray area. Possibly varies across jurisdictions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is n't this turning into a " would you blame the gun factory for murder " kind of thing ?
If they did what they 've been asked / payed to do , from given specification , what exactly are they guilty of ? OTOH , is a sysadmin taking care of a server ( the usual - network , power , disk drives , backups , etc .
) guilty if he knows the server issues fraudulent bank orders and does n't report it ?
Seems kind of gray area .
Possibly varies across jurisdictions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Isn't this turning into a "would you blame the gun factory for murder" kind of thing?
If they did what they've been asked / payed to do, from given specification, what exactly are they guilty of?OTOH, is a sysadmin taking care of a server (the usual - network, power, disk drives, backups, etc.
) guilty if he knows the server issues fraudulent bank orders and doesn't report it?
Seems kind of gray area.
Possibly varies across jurisdictions.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092490</id>
	<title>Re:interesting</title>
	<author>PitaBred</author>
	<datestamp>1258110480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Unfortunately, programmers aren't licensed and accountable like real engineers are.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unfortunately , programmers are n't licensed and accountable like real engineers are .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unfortunately, programmers aren't licensed and accountable like real engineers are.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091860</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092026</id>
	<title>fdsf</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258107840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Horse cock!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Horse cock !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Horse cock!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091926</id>
	<title>The REAL lesson of this.</title>
	<author>MarkvW</author>
	<datestamp>1258107240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When you are a little fish . . . run to your lawyer, then together make yourselves the very best friends that the FBI ever had.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When you are a little fish .
. .
run to your lawyer , then together make yourselves the very best friends that the FBI ever had .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When you are a little fish .
. .
run to your lawyer, then together make yourselves the very best friends that the FBI ever had.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30095082</id>
	<title>Re:Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258134240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They could have simply written a system that madoff configured himself.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They could have simply written a system that madoff configured himself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They could have simply written a system that madoff configured himself.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091852</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258106880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>So tell me, when are they going to go after the programmers at Goldman Sachs?</p></div><p>Because the US is a nation of laws and you have to break a law first before they can go after you.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So tell me , when are they going to go after the programmers at Goldman Sachs ? Because the US is a nation of laws and you have to break a law first before they can go after you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So tell me, when are they going to go after the programmers at Goldman Sachs?Because the US is a nation of laws and you have to break a law first before they can go after you.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092224</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258109040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>  George Bush proved that wrong.</i></p><p>Well, I stopped taking you seriously. Thanks for doing that before your long post, though you should have let me know earlier in the thread that you're a moron, since I read through  your other post.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>George Bush proved that wrong.Well , I stopped taking you seriously .
Thanks for doing that before your long post , though you should have let me know earlier in the thread that you 're a moron , since I read through your other post .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>  George Bush proved that wrong.Well, I stopped taking you seriously.
Thanks for doing that before your long post, though you should have let me know earlier in the thread that you're a moron, since I read through  your other post.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092102</id>
	<title>But I was just following the specs...</title>
	<author>sprior</author>
	<datestamp>1258108320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So apparently "I was just following the specs" doesn't work any better than "I was just following orders"...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So apparently " I was just following the specs " does n't work any better than " I was just following orders " .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So apparently "I was just following the specs" doesn't work any better than "I was just following orders"...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30094826</id>
	<title>Re:What's the motivation?</title>
	<author>vaporland</author>
	<datestamp>1258130700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>These guys were stupid. Madoff made off will literally billions based on their efforts. They ended up with a six-figure salary and impending jail time...</htmltext>
<tokenext>These guys were stupid .
Madoff made off will literally billions based on their efforts .
They ended up with a six-figure salary and impending jail time.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These guys were stupid.
Madoff made off will literally billions based on their efforts.
They ended up with a six-figure salary and impending jail time...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091832</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>ShatteredArm</author>
	<datestamp>1258106820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You kidding? They're just <a href="http://lolfed.com/2009/11/05/q3-pleased-lucifer-greatly/?utm\_source=feedburner&amp;utm\_medium=feed&amp;utm\_campaign=Feed\%3A+Lolfed+(LOLFed+-+LOL\%2C+the+Federal+Reserve)" title="lolfed.com">doing the work of the Lord.</a> [lolfed.com]<blockquote><div><p>&ldquo;The injunction of Jesus to love others as ourselves is an endorsement of self-interest,&rdquo; Goldman&rsquo;s Griffiths said Oct. 20, his voice echoing around the gold-mosaic walls of St. Paul&rsquo;s Cathedral, whose 365-feet-high dome towers over the City, London&rsquo;s financial district. &ldquo;We have to tolerate the inequality as a way to achieving greater prosperity and opportunity for all.&rdquo;</p></div></blockquote></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You kidding ?
They 're just doing the work of the Lord .
[ lolfed.com ]    The injunction of Jesus to love others as ourselves is an endorsement of self-interest ,    Goldman    s Griffiths said Oct. 20 , his voice echoing around the gold-mosaic walls of St. Paul    s Cathedral , whose 365-feet-high dome towers over the City , London    s financial district .
   We have to tolerate the inequality as a way to achieving greater prosperity and opportunity for all.   </tokentext>
<sentencetext>You kidding?
They're just doing the work of the Lord.
[lolfed.com]“The injunction of Jesus to love others as ourselves is an endorsement of self-interest,” Goldman’s Griffiths said Oct. 20, his voice echoing around the gold-mosaic walls of St. Paul’s Cathedral, whose 365-feet-high dome towers over the City, London’s financial district.
“We have to tolerate the inequality as a way to achieving greater prosperity and opportunity for all.”
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30093108</id>
	<title>Re:Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258114680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Then with that logic (which sounds good to me), why weren't these programmers arrested earlier.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Then with that logic ( which sounds good to me ) , why were n't these programmers arrested earlier .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then with that logic (which sounds good to me), why weren't these programmers arrested earlier.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30096000</id>
	<title>Re:What's the motivation?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258194000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There are so many great opportunities out there for making a legitimate living programming that it makes me wonder why these guys volunteered to spend the best years of their lives stealing from people.</p></div><p>Because they weren't stealing from people, at least directly.</p><p>They were programming for someone who was stealing from people, and were getting paid a hell of a lot more for it too.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are so many great opportunities out there for making a legitimate living programming that it makes me wonder why these guys volunteered to spend the best years of their lives stealing from people.Because they were n't stealing from people , at least directly.They were programming for someone who was stealing from people , and were getting paid a hell of a lot more for it too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are so many great opportunities out there for making a legitimate living programming that it makes me wonder why these guys volunteered to spend the best years of their lives stealing from people.Because they weren't stealing from people, at least directly.They were programming for someone who was stealing from people, and were getting paid a hell of a lot more for it too.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092454</id>
	<title>Have they not seen Office Space?</title>
	<author>PeterChenoweth</author>
	<datestamp>1258110300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's all about the decimal places.
<br> <br>
I hope they enjoy their stay at Federal Pound-Me-In-The-Ass Prison.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's all about the decimal places .
I hope they enjoy their stay at Federal Pound-Me-In-The-Ass Prison .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's all about the decimal places.
I hope they enjoy their stay at Federal Pound-Me-In-The-Ass Prison.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092050</id>
	<title>Who The Fuck ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258107960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Are Jerome O' Hara and George Perez ? Should have mentioned that in the article summary for the uninitiated.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Are Jerome O ' Hara and George Perez ?
Should have mentioned that in the article summary for the uninitiated .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are Jerome O' Hara and George Perez ?
Should have mentioned that in the article summary for the uninitiated.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091762</id>
	<title>crontab</title>
	<author>El\_Muerte\_TDS</author>
	<datestamp>1258106520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Apparently Madoff's fraud was too large and too complex to be foisted entirely by hand</p></div></blockquote><p>And that's why we have cellscripts and conjobs</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Apparently Madoff 's fraud was too large and too complex to be foisted entirely by handAnd that 's why we have cellscripts and conjobs</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Apparently Madoff's fraud was too large and too complex to be foisted entirely by handAnd that's why we have cellscripts and conjobs
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091776</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>MickyTheIdiot</author>
	<datestamp>1258106580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>when are they going to go after the god damn CRIMINALS at Goldman Sachs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>when are they going to go after the god damn CRIMINALS at Goldman Sachs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>when are they going to go after the god damn CRIMINALS at Goldman Sachs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30093618</id>
	<title>Re:And this, boys and girls....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258118340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...and hope nobody comes in after you and types:</p><p>history</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...and hope nobody comes in after you and types : history</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...and hope nobody comes in after you and types:history</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092528</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092180</id>
	<title>Re:Well, of course.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258108800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If you've followed the details of the Madoff scandal, it was obvious that it required substantial computer support.</p><p>Each month, Madoff's investors got statements which showed fictitious trades and fictitious profits.  The phony trades were for real stocks, with prices which were (almost) real.  But the trades were chosen retrospectively, which is like betting on a race after it's run.  So superficially reasonable statements came out.<br>This was all generated on an AS-400 that had been in use for this for several decades.</p><p>The software wasn't very good.  If they'd been better at it, they could have generated statements which showed trades which exactly matched real trades of others (from the "tape"; trades are public but traders are anonymous), delivered trade confirmations every day, and still shown phony profits just by picking trades randomly distributed around the 75\% of each day's trades.  That would survive external examination, but not a real audit.  Close looks at Madoff statements show trades which could not possibly have occurred; the price is outside the day's trading range.  Sloppy.</p></div><p>YOUR HIRED!</p><p>your friendly Goldman Sachs recruiter,</p><p>Beelzebub</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 've followed the details of the Madoff scandal , it was obvious that it required substantial computer support.Each month , Madoff 's investors got statements which showed fictitious trades and fictitious profits .
The phony trades were for real stocks , with prices which were ( almost ) real .
But the trades were chosen retrospectively , which is like betting on a race after it 's run .
So superficially reasonable statements came out.This was all generated on an AS-400 that had been in use for this for several decades.The software was n't very good .
If they 'd been better at it , they could have generated statements which showed trades which exactly matched real trades of others ( from the " tape " ; trades are public but traders are anonymous ) , delivered trade confirmations every day , and still shown phony profits just by picking trades randomly distributed around the 75 \ % of each day 's trades .
That would survive external examination , but not a real audit .
Close looks at Madoff statements show trades which could not possibly have occurred ; the price is outside the day 's trading range .
Sloppy.YOUR HIRED ! your friendly Goldman Sachs recruiter,Beelzebub</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you've followed the details of the Madoff scandal, it was obvious that it required substantial computer support.Each month, Madoff's investors got statements which showed fictitious trades and fictitious profits.
The phony trades were for real stocks, with prices which were (almost) real.
But the trades were chosen retrospectively, which is like betting on a race after it's run.
So superficially reasonable statements came out.This was all generated on an AS-400 that had been in use for this for several decades.The software wasn't very good.
If they'd been better at it, they could have generated statements which showed trades which exactly matched real trades of others (from the "tape"; trades are public but traders are anonymous), delivered trade confirmations every day, and still shown phony profits just by picking trades randomly distributed around the 75\% of each day's trades.
That would survive external examination, but not a real audit.
Close looks at Madoff statements show trades which could not possibly have occurred; the price is outside the day's trading range.
Sloppy.YOUR HIRED!your friendly Goldman Sachs recruiter,Beelzebub
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092642</id>
	<title>Re:What's the motivation?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258111500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bernie was a demented asshole, we can clearly see from his behaviour.  It's not too big a surprise that the people working for him were also demented assholes.  If Bernie employed people with morals, and those people understood what Bernie was doing, then those people would have quit.  It's kind of a selection bias--all the people who worked for Bernie in the end were guys who didn't have ethical problems with stealing millions and millions of dollars from people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bernie was a demented asshole , we can clearly see from his behaviour .
It 's not too big a surprise that the people working for him were also demented assholes .
If Bernie employed people with morals , and those people understood what Bernie was doing , then those people would have quit .
It 's kind of a selection bias--all the people who worked for Bernie in the end were guys who did n't have ethical problems with stealing millions and millions of dollars from people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bernie was a demented asshole, we can clearly see from his behaviour.
It's not too big a surprise that the people working for him were also demented assholes.
If Bernie employed people with morals, and those people understood what Bernie was doing, then those people would have quit.
It's kind of a selection bias--all the people who worked for Bernie in the end were guys who didn't have ethical problems with stealing millions and millions of dollars from people.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091948</id>
	<title>"Computer Wizards"</title>
	<author>MRe\_nl</author>
	<datestamp>1258107420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Nunc Id Vides, Nunc Ne Vides"</p><p>++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Nunc Id Vides , Nunc Ne Vides " + + ? ? ? ?
? + + Out of Cheese Error .
Redo From Start .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Nunc Id Vides, Nunc Ne Vides"++????
?++ Out of Cheese Error.
Redo From Start.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091874</id>
	<title>Chump Change Compared To</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258107000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>the trillions stolen with <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/" title="pbs.org" rel="nofollow">OTC Derivatives</a> [pbs.org].</p><p>"We didn't truly know the dangers of the market, because it was a dark market," says Brooksley Born, the head of an obscure federal regulatory agency -- the Commodity Futures Trading Commission [CFTC] -- who not only warned of the potential for economic meltdown in the late 1990s, but also tried to convince the country's key economic powerbrokers to take actions that could have helped avert the crisis. "They were totally opposed to it," Born says. "That puzzled me. What was it that was in this market that had to be hidden?" (more )</p><p>Yours In Petrograd,<br>Kilgore T.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>the trillions stolen with OTC Derivatives [ pbs.org ] .
" We did n't truly know the dangers of the market , because it was a dark market , " says Brooksley Born , the head of an obscure federal regulatory agency -- the Commodity Futures Trading Commission [ CFTC ] -- who not only warned of the potential for economic meltdown in the late 1990s , but also tried to convince the country 's key economic powerbrokers to take actions that could have helped avert the crisis .
" They were totally opposed to it , " Born says .
" That puzzled me .
What was it that was in this market that had to be hidden ?
" ( more ) Yours In Petrograd,Kilgore T .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the trillions stolen with OTC Derivatives [pbs.org].
"We didn't truly know the dangers of the market, because it was a dark market," says Brooksley Born, the head of an obscure federal regulatory agency -- the Commodity Futures Trading Commission [CFTC] -- who not only warned of the potential for economic meltdown in the late 1990s, but also tried to convince the country's key economic powerbrokers to take actions that could have helped avert the crisis.
"They were totally opposed to it," Born says.
"That puzzled me.
What was it that was in this market that had to be hidden?
" (more )Yours In Petrograd,Kilgore T.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30093990</id>
	<title>Re:And this, boys and girls....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258121340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Is why you write in bash, and only key it in on the command line.</p></div><p>Do you also disable all logging including shell history and disable<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/swap as well as flush RAM after every command completes?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is why you write in bash , and only key it in on the command line.Do you also disable all logging including shell history and disable /swap as well as flush RAM after every command completes ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is why you write in bash, and only key it in on the command line.Do you also disable all logging including shell history and disable /swap as well as flush RAM after every command completes?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092528</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30095934</id>
	<title>Re:interesting</title>
	<author>pipingguy</author>
	<datestamp>1258192320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That's true, and Trepidity (597)'s comment downstream of yours is also true. Although he mentions, "real engineers".</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's true , and Trepidity ( 597 ) 's comment downstream of yours is also true .
Although he mentions , " real engineers " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's true, and Trepidity (597)'s comment downstream of yours is also true.
Although he mentions, "real engineers".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092490</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091878</id>
	<title>Re:What's the motivation?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258107000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would imagine in a 50 billion dollar ponzi scheme, they are probably going to pay these programmers more than 100k.... even at a lowly $1 million, that's still 10 years worth of work for a programmer.  And I'd also imagine if they were aware of what they were helping in, that they would ask for substantially more than just a million.  I'm just not sure why they're still in the States and not on some beach in Venezuela or something.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would imagine in a 50 billion dollar ponzi scheme , they are probably going to pay these programmers more than 100k.... even at a lowly $ 1 million , that 's still 10 years worth of work for a programmer .
And I 'd also imagine if they were aware of what they were helping in , that they would ask for substantially more than just a million .
I 'm just not sure why they 're still in the States and not on some beach in Venezuela or something .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would imagine in a 50 billion dollar ponzi scheme, they are probably going to pay these programmers more than 100k.... even at a lowly $1 million, that's still 10 years worth of work for a programmer.
And I'd also imagine if they were aware of what they were helping in, that they would ask for substantially more than just a million.
I'm just not sure why they're still in the States and not on some beach in Venezuela or something.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30095674</id>
	<title>Re:What's the motivation?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258230660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Interesting is that the characterization of Madoff focuses on non-related issues and issues of other people, some of which are criminal and others which are perfectly legal. The quote could be considered as an artifact of sexual discrimination in the society as well. When your brain does the wrong thing, your perfectly good heart and genitals take the blame, unless the cocaine has done its job already.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Interesting is that the characterization of Madoff focuses on non-related issues and issues of other people , some of which are criminal and others which are perfectly legal .
The quote could be considered as an artifact of sexual discrimination in the society as well .
When your brain does the wrong thing , your perfectly good heart and genitals take the blame , unless the cocaine has done its job already .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Interesting is that the characterization of Madoff focuses on non-related issues and issues of other people, some of which are criminal and others which are perfectly legal.
The quote could be considered as an artifact of sexual discrimination in the society as well.
When your brain does the wrong thing, your perfectly good heart and genitals take the blame, unless the cocaine has done its job already.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092044</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>NotBornYesterday</author>
	<datestamp>1258107960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>perhaps some programmers were in on the fact that it was a scam</p></div><p>FTFA:  </p><p><div class="quote"><p>[according to the prosecutor] The computer codes and random algorithms they allegedly designed served to deceive investors and regulators and concealed Madoff's crimes</p></div><p>At one point they tried to cover their tracks by erasing files, but did an incomplete job.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>After that, the SEC said DiPascali convinced the programmers to modify programs so that he and other employees could create [fake] reports themselves.</p></div><p>... which indicates that although they might have been bothered by what they were doing, they weren't bothered enough to quit,or call in the Feds themselves, or take any other redeeming action.<br> <br>
Granted, they're innocent until proven guilty, etc., but it appears they were in this up to their ears.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>perhaps some programmers were in on the fact that it was a scamFTFA : [ according to the prosecutor ] The computer codes and random algorithms they allegedly designed served to deceive investors and regulators and concealed Madoff 's crimesAt one point they tried to cover their tracks by erasing files , but did an incomplete job.After that , the SEC said DiPascali convinced the programmers to modify programs so that he and other employees could create [ fake ] reports themselves.... which indicates that although they might have been bothered by what they were doing , they were n't bothered enough to quit,or call in the Feds themselves , or take any other redeeming action .
Granted , they 're innocent until proven guilty , etc. , but it appears they were in this up to their ears .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>perhaps some programmers were in on the fact that it was a scamFTFA:  [according to the prosecutor] The computer codes and random algorithms they allegedly designed served to deceive investors and regulators and concealed Madoff's crimesAt one point they tried to cover their tracks by erasing files, but did an incomplete job.After that, the SEC said DiPascali convinced the programmers to modify programs so that he and other employees could create [fake] reports themselves.... which indicates that although they might have been bothered by what they were doing, they weren't bothered enough to quit,or call in the Feds themselves, or take any other redeeming action.
Granted, they're innocent until proven guilty, etc., but it appears they were in this up to their ears.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091896</id>
	<title>Mock Objects</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258107180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thats Mock Objects for you.  I guess they were using it for real deployment too!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thats Mock Objects for you .
I guess they were using it for real deployment too !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thats Mock Objects for you.
I guess they were using it for real deployment too!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091860</id>
	<title>interesting</title>
	<author>Trepidity</author>
	<datestamp>1258106940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I went to an engineering school that was founded in the aftermath of WW2, so had a strong ethos of: "scientists and engineers need to understand what we're doing and why, not just implement stuff other people tell us to". I.e., don't assume the people above you are in charge of the "why" and as the scientist/engineer all you need to care about is the "how". Usually it's seen as more of an ethics thing, but interesting to be reminded that on occasion it can be a matter of self-interest, too, since you have a <i>legal</i> responsibility to know what you're doing and why, at least to some minimum degree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I went to an engineering school that was founded in the aftermath of WW2 , so had a strong ethos of : " scientists and engineers need to understand what we 're doing and why , not just implement stuff other people tell us to " .
I.e. , do n't assume the people above you are in charge of the " why " and as the scientist/engineer all you need to care about is the " how " .
Usually it 's seen as more of an ethics thing , but interesting to be reminded that on occasion it can be a matter of self-interest , too , since you have a legal responsibility to know what you 're doing and why , at least to some minimum degree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I went to an engineering school that was founded in the aftermath of WW2, so had a strong ethos of: "scientists and engineers need to understand what we're doing and why, not just implement stuff other people tell us to".
I.e., don't assume the people above you are in charge of the "why" and as the scientist/engineer all you need to care about is the "how".
Usually it's seen as more of an ethics thing, but interesting to be reminded that on occasion it can be a matter of self-interest, too, since you have a legal responsibility to know what you're doing and why, at least to some minimum degree.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091774</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>XPeter</author>
	<datestamp>1258106580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>The Goldman programmers aren't the problem.  The lobbyists are.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The Goldman programmers are n't the problem .
The lobbyists are .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Goldman programmers aren't the problem.
The lobbyists are.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30096400</id>
	<title>Re:"Bernie Madoff's Programmers Arrested"???...</title>
	<author>RDeichsel</author>
	<datestamp>1258201680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes, he's a gay robot.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , he 's a gay robot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, he's a gay robot.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092474</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092278</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>Hognoxious</author>
	<datestamp>1258109340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I'm sure that Madoff used Microsoft Word to send mail to some of his clients.</p></div></blockquote><p>I'm sure he made his calculations using Powerpoint too.</p><p>Actually, that would explain a lot...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sure that Madoff used Microsoft Word to send mail to some of his clients.I 'm sure he made his calculations using Powerpoint too.Actually , that would explain a lot.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sure that Madoff used Microsoft Word to send mail to some of his clients.I'm sure he made his calculations using Powerpoint too.Actually, that would explain a lot...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091704</id>
	<title>But</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258106280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So tell me, when are they going to go after the programmers at Goldman Sachs?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So tell me , when are they going to go after the programmers at Goldman Sachs ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So tell me, when are they going to go after the programmers at Goldman Sachs?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30095266</id>
	<title>Re:Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>hey!</author>
	<datestamp>1258137000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's like saying if you intend to stick your fingers in the meat grinder, you ought to keep something you can use as a tourniquet handy.  It's true, in a completely useless way.</p><p>These guys were helping with the biggest Ponzi scheme in history.  The reason that Ponzi schemes are illegal is that *they are destined to collapse*. When you're helping run the biggest one ever, it's going to be the biggest crash and burn ever.  Evading the consequences means moving as much cash as you can overseas, planning to change your identity, and getting the hell out of Dodge a *long* time before you think you might need to.  And that's assuming you don't trip the money laundering detectors, which you certainly will.</p><p>Madoff and these guys for a very, very brief time had a model nobody else had, and it depended on computation to do things faster than anybody else had ever tried to.  But it didn't take long for other people to copy the general idea, Instead of patting themselves on the back for being so clever, pocketing the huge profits they made,  then moving on to the next thing, they decided to *pretend* their advantage could go on forever.  You have to think they were mentally ill on some level, because they *had* to have known they'd be caught.  Somehow they must have had a need that went deeper than money, a need to be regarded as brilliant beyond ordinary mortals, if only for a limited time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's like saying if you intend to stick your fingers in the meat grinder , you ought to keep something you can use as a tourniquet handy .
It 's true , in a completely useless way.These guys were helping with the biggest Ponzi scheme in history .
The reason that Ponzi schemes are illegal is that * they are destined to collapse * .
When you 're helping run the biggest one ever , it 's going to be the biggest crash and burn ever .
Evading the consequences means moving as much cash as you can overseas , planning to change your identity , and getting the hell out of Dodge a * long * time before you think you might need to .
And that 's assuming you do n't trip the money laundering detectors , which you certainly will.Madoff and these guys for a very , very brief time had a model nobody else had , and it depended on computation to do things faster than anybody else had ever tried to .
But it did n't take long for other people to copy the general idea , Instead of patting themselves on the back for being so clever , pocketing the huge profits they made , then moving on to the next thing , they decided to * pretend * their advantage could go on forever .
You have to think they were mentally ill on some level , because they * had * to have known they 'd be caught .
Somehow they must have had a need that went deeper than money , a need to be regarded as brilliant beyond ordinary mortals , if only for a limited time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's like saying if you intend to stick your fingers in the meat grinder, you ought to keep something you can use as a tourniquet handy.
It's true, in a completely useless way.These guys were helping with the biggest Ponzi scheme in history.
The reason that Ponzi schemes are illegal is that *they are destined to collapse*.
When you're helping run the biggest one ever, it's going to be the biggest crash and burn ever.
Evading the consequences means moving as much cash as you can overseas, planning to change your identity, and getting the hell out of Dodge a *long* time before you think you might need to.
And that's assuming you don't trip the money laundering detectors, which you certainly will.Madoff and these guys for a very, very brief time had a model nobody else had, and it depended on computation to do things faster than anybody else had ever tried to.
But it didn't take long for other people to copy the general idea, Instead of patting themselves on the back for being so clever, pocketing the huge profits they made,  then moving on to the next thing, they decided to *pretend* their advantage could go on forever.
You have to think they were mentally ill on some level, because they *had* to have known they'd be caught.
Somehow they must have had a need that went deeper than money, a need to be regarded as brilliant beyond ordinary mortals, if only for a limited time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091684</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30102874</id>
	<title>In my University....</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1258210200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>.... all Engineering students had to study Ethics as part of their Engineering studies.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>.... all Engineering students had to study Ethics as part of their Engineering studies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>.... all Engineering students had to study Ethics as part of their Engineering studies.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091860</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30093470</id>
	<title>Re:interesting</title>
	<author>AEC216</author>
	<datestamp>1258117560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In my anecdotal experience, business rules and knowledge are 90\% of business/normal programming.  You cannot code without it.  I think this is why so many off-shoring projects have problems.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In my anecdotal experience , business rules and knowledge are 90 \ % of business/normal programming .
You can not code without it .
I think this is why so many off-shoring projects have problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my anecdotal experience, business rules and knowledge are 90\% of business/normal programming.
You cannot code without it.
I think this is why so many off-shoring projects have problems.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091860</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092116</id>
	<title>Sloppy huh?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258108440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If it's so sloppy - make a better one then!<br>Just kidding.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If it 's so sloppy - make a better one then ! Just kidding .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If it's so sloppy - make a better one then!Just kidding.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092694</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>GumphMaster</author>
	<datestamp>1258111800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>&ldquo;We have to tolerate the inequality as a way to achieving greater prosperity and opportunity for all.&rdquo;</p></div></blockquote><p>Defined only for <i>all</i> &lt;&lt; World population</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>   We have to tolerate the inequality as a way to achieving greater prosperity and opportunity for all.    Defined only for all</tokentext>
<sentencetext>“We have to tolerate the inequality as a way to achieving greater prosperity and opportunity for all.”Defined only for all 
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091832</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092058</id>
	<title>Re:What's the motivation?</title>
	<author>confused one</author>
	<datestamp>1258108080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Some people don't have your morals, and might actually find a high paying job like this desirable: <a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/22/madoff.lawsuit/index.html" title="cnn.com"> (cnn)</a> [cnn.com]  "A new lawsuit alleges that convicted swindler Bernie Madoff financed a cocaine-fueled work environment and a "culture of sexual deviance," "</htmltext>
<tokenext>Some people do n't have your morals , and might actually find a high paying job like this desirable : ( cnn ) [ cnn.com ] " A new lawsuit alleges that convicted swindler Bernie Madoff financed a cocaine-fueled work environment and a " culture of sexual deviance , " "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some people don't have your morals, and might actually find a high paying job like this desirable:  (cnn) [cnn.com]  "A new lawsuit alleges that convicted swindler Bernie Madoff financed a cocaine-fueled work environment and a "culture of sexual deviance," "</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092474</id>
	<title>"Bernie Madoff's Programmers Arrested"???...</title>
	<author>Dogtanian</author>
	<datestamp>1258110420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>...Oh My God! Does this mean Bernie Madoff was a robot?</htmltext>
<tokenext>...Oh My God !
Does this mean Bernie Madoff was a robot ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...Oh My God!
Does this mean Bernie Madoff was a robot?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092528</id>
	<title>And this, boys and girls....</title>
	<author>snspdaarf</author>
	<datestamp>1258110780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Is why you write in bash, and only key it in on the command line.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is why you write in bash , and only key it in on the command line .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is why you write in bash, and only key it in on the command line.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30097872</id>
	<title>Re:Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258217460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Don't forget to destroy the evidence of your destruction of the evidence of the destruction of the evidence and backups and its backups and its backups.</p></div><p>...and don forget to DoS<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't forget to destroy the evidence of your destruction of the evidence of the destruction of the evidence and backups and its backups and its backups....and don forget to DoS / .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't forget to destroy the evidence of your destruction of the evidence of the destruction of the evidence and backups and its backups and its backups....and don forget to DoS /.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092004</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092178</id>
	<title>mod uP</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258108740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>same year, BSD 'first post' Whether you the 3hoosing</htmltext>
<tokenext>same year , BSD 'first post ' Whether you the 3hoosing</tokentext>
<sentencetext>same year, BSD 'first post' Whether you the 3hoosing</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30095800</id>
	<title>Re:What's the motivation?</title>
	<author>IgnoramusMaximus</author>
	<datestamp>1258189740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am completely with you on that one. It took me many years to loose my illusions of youth about any sort of "justice" or "meritocracy" as applicable to our societies. These days if I were ever to be placed in the position of these dudes, the only difference between me and them would have been the scale of my demands (they were just waaaay too meek) and an elaborate exit strategy. In short, either you are in all the way and plan for the inevitable hasty and elaborate (and thus very expensive) exit, or you do not play along <b>at all</b>. Anything else is just stupidity of small-time crooks who go to jail for 20 years over stealing some pathetic sum of few thousands bucks.
</p><p>But then again they were lulled into complacency by the very fact that they were working with Bernie the Financial Star, who appeared to an untrained eye as just "too big to fall", he with all of his apparent connections and stature (and the fact that SEC has been deflected on multiple occasions only reinforced that impression in his code monkeys and other lackeys). With my life's experience with the worshippers of Mammon and the corporate dystopia, I would have known better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am completely with you on that one .
It took me many years to loose my illusions of youth about any sort of " justice " or " meritocracy " as applicable to our societies .
These days if I were ever to be placed in the position of these dudes , the only difference between me and them would have been the scale of my demands ( they were just waaaay too meek ) and an elaborate exit strategy .
In short , either you are in all the way and plan for the inevitable hasty and elaborate ( and thus very expensive ) exit , or you do not play along at all .
Anything else is just stupidity of small-time crooks who go to jail for 20 years over stealing some pathetic sum of few thousands bucks .
But then again they were lulled into complacency by the very fact that they were working with Bernie the Financial Star , who appeared to an untrained eye as just " too big to fall " , he with all of his apparent connections and stature ( and the fact that SEC has been deflected on multiple occasions only reinforced that impression in his code monkeys and other lackeys ) .
With my life 's experience with the worshippers of Mammon and the corporate dystopia , I would have known better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am completely with you on that one.
It took me many years to loose my illusions of youth about any sort of "justice" or "meritocracy" as applicable to our societies.
These days if I were ever to be placed in the position of these dudes, the only difference between me and them would have been the scale of my demands (they were just waaaay too meek) and an elaborate exit strategy.
In short, either you are in all the way and plan for the inevitable hasty and elaborate (and thus very expensive) exit, or you do not play along at all.
Anything else is just stupidity of small-time crooks who go to jail for 20 years over stealing some pathetic sum of few thousands bucks.
But then again they were lulled into complacency by the very fact that they were working with Bernie the Financial Star, who appeared to an untrained eye as just "too big to fall", he with all of his apparent connections and stature (and the fact that SEC has been deflected on multiple occasions only reinforced that impression in his code monkeys and other lackeys).
With my life's experience with the worshippers of Mammon and the corporate dystopia, I would have known better.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092002</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092772</id>
	<title>Re:interesting</title>
	<author>Beardo the Bearded</author>
	<datestamp>1258112340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not <i>yet</i>.</p><p>APEGBC (Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of British Columbia) has a Software Engineer designation, and that's a real one; B.Eng, four+ years of EIT time, and P.Eng registration. One of my friends was one of the first software P.Engs in Canada. (I'm an Electrical EIT working on my P.Eng. My alma mater was one of the first institutions to offer a Software discipline in the Engineering faculty.)</p><p>At some point, the law is going to catch up and have similar rules to the building code. Basically, you'll be able to work on your own house or an immediate family member's house without a licence, but to work on other houses you require a contractor's licence and insurance. (This is a gross oversimplification, but good enough for<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.)</p><p>When they brought in licences for Opticians in BC, some people who'd been working in the field for years failed the test <i>repeatedly</i>. You don't know what you don't know.</p><p>I \_can\_ build boxes that disrupt a lot of stuff. $100 worth of parts and a busy weekend would let me disable all the police radios in town. (Scary thought, isn't it? Worse, this would work in just about any town with a specific type of radio setup.) I can also use my tools to, say, make a diving light or repair just about anything that requires power.</p><p>Code writers can do lots of things like that. You can play memory rodeo on your home computer all day and risk nothing but a few bucks if you blow something. You could also write code that creates fraudulent trades. One of these things should put you in jail, and one of those counts should be "writing public software without a licence".</p><p>It is way too late in the week to edit this post so it makes sense.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not yet.APEGBC ( Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of British Columbia ) has a Software Engineer designation , and that 's a real one ; B.Eng , four + years of EIT time , and P.Eng registration .
One of my friends was one of the first software P.Engs in Canada .
( I 'm an Electrical EIT working on my P.Eng .
My alma mater was one of the first institutions to offer a Software discipline in the Engineering faculty .
) At some point , the law is going to catch up and have similar rules to the building code .
Basically , you 'll be able to work on your own house or an immediate family member 's house without a licence , but to work on other houses you require a contractor 's licence and insurance .
( This is a gross oversimplification , but good enough for / .
) When they brought in licences for Opticians in BC , some people who 'd been working in the field for years failed the test repeatedly .
You do n't know what you do n't know.I \ _can \ _ build boxes that disrupt a lot of stuff .
$ 100 worth of parts and a busy weekend would let me disable all the police radios in town .
( Scary thought , is n't it ?
Worse , this would work in just about any town with a specific type of radio setup .
) I can also use my tools to , say , make a diving light or repair just about anything that requires power.Code writers can do lots of things like that .
You can play memory rodeo on your home computer all day and risk nothing but a few bucks if you blow something .
You could also write code that creates fraudulent trades .
One of these things should put you in jail , and one of those counts should be " writing public software without a licence " .It is way too late in the week to edit this post so it makes sense .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not yet.APEGBC (Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of British Columbia) has a Software Engineer designation, and that's a real one; B.Eng, four+ years of EIT time, and P.Eng registration.
One of my friends was one of the first software P.Engs in Canada.
(I'm an Electrical EIT working on my P.Eng.
My alma mater was one of the first institutions to offer a Software discipline in the Engineering faculty.
)At some point, the law is going to catch up and have similar rules to the building code.
Basically, you'll be able to work on your own house or an immediate family member's house without a licence, but to work on other houses you require a contractor's licence and insurance.
(This is a gross oversimplification, but good enough for /.
)When they brought in licences for Opticians in BC, some people who'd been working in the field for years failed the test repeatedly.
You don't know what you don't know.I \_can\_ build boxes that disrupt a lot of stuff.
$100 worth of parts and a busy weekend would let me disable all the police radios in town.
(Scary thought, isn't it?
Worse, this would work in just about any town with a specific type of radio setup.
) I can also use my tools to, say, make a diving light or repair just about anything that requires power.Code writers can do lots of things like that.
You can play memory rodeo on your home computer all day and risk nothing but a few bucks if you blow something.
You could also write code that creates fraudulent trades.
One of these things should put you in jail, and one of those counts should be "writing public software without a licence".It is way too late in the week to edit this post so it makes sense.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092490</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091908</id>
	<title>Re:What's the motivation?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258107240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>From the article:<p><div class="quote"><p>Madoff told DiPascali to pay the programmers "whatever they wanted in order to keep them happy," the investigators said, and the programmers received pay increases of about 25 percent and net bonuses of about $60,000.</p></div><p>Pay increase of 25\% above what was probably already a good salary and a bonus that alone matches or exceeds what a lot of programmers make in a year.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>From the article : Madoff told DiPascali to pay the programmers " whatever they wanted in order to keep them happy , " the investigators said , and the programmers received pay increases of about 25 percent and net bonuses of about $ 60,000.Pay increase of 25 \ % above what was probably already a good salary and a bonus that alone matches or exceeds what a lot of programmers make in a year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From the article:Madoff told DiPascali to pay the programmers "whatever they wanted in order to keep them happy," the investigators said, and the programmers received pay increases of about 25 percent and net bonuses of about $60,000.Pay increase of 25\% above what was probably already a good salary and a bonus that alone matches or exceeds what a lot of programmers make in a year.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092406</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258110000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The basic problem is - how can you write the programs and databases to produce fake trades and statements without having a clue what they are for and that the use is for fraud?<br>The only logical defence is "it was an AS400 and nobody can figure out RPG-II code."<br>I have trouble imagining that Madoff was such a whiz that he could take a harmless program and use it to construct a $50M fraud.</p><p>If you program this stuff and deliberately ignore what it's obviouly for, then you are either complicit (I hope you got paid big bucks...!) or you are too stupid to be free.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The basic problem is - how can you write the programs and databases to produce fake trades and statements without having a clue what they are for and that the use is for fraud ? The only logical defence is " it was an AS400 and nobody can figure out RPG-II code .
" I have trouble imagining that Madoff was such a whiz that he could take a harmless program and use it to construct a $ 50M fraud.If you program this stuff and deliberately ignore what it 's obviouly for , then you are either complicit ( I hope you got paid big bucks... !
) or you are too stupid to be free .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The basic problem is - how can you write the programs and databases to produce fake trades and statements without having a clue what they are for and that the use is for fraud?The only logical defence is "it was an AS400 and nobody can figure out RPG-II code.
"I have trouble imagining that Madoff was such a whiz that he could take a harmless program and use it to construct a $50M fraud.If you program this stuff and deliberately ignore what it's obviouly for, then you are either complicit (I hope you got paid big bucks...!
) or you are too stupid to be free.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092762</id>
	<title>Re:What's the motivation?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258112220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bonus?????!!..aren't those thing extinct? I haven't seen one of them things in over a decade.......</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bonus ? ? ? ? ? !
! ..are n't those thing extinct ?
I have n't seen one of them things in over a decade...... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bonus?????!
!..aren't those thing extinct?
I haven't seen one of them things in over a decade.......</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091970</id>
	<title>Re:Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258107480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Should have used perl.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Should have used perl .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Should have used perl.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091684</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30093432</id>
	<title>Re:And this, boys and girls....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258117260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>export HISTSIZE=0;</p><p>Just saying...you don't want them to start with cat ~/.bash\_history &gt;<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/EVIDENCE</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>export HISTSIZE = 0 ; Just saying...you do n't want them to start with cat ~ /.bash \ _history &gt; /EVIDENCE</tokentext>
<sentencetext>export HISTSIZE=0;Just saying...you don't want them to start with cat ~/.bash\_history &gt; /EVIDENCE</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092528</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091684</id>
	<title>Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258106160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you destroy evidence, make sure you destroy the backups, too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you destroy evidence , make sure you destroy the backups , too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you destroy evidence, make sure you destroy the backups, too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092700</id>
	<title>Re:interesting</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258111860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's still great for pissing off annoying lusers who are absolutely certain they need to use program x to do task y.</p><p>Of course, when you try to figure out what "y" is those lusers go on to places like slashdot to whine about how OSS support is terrible and cruel and refused to just tell them why their gcc doesn't work when all they wanted to do was get gcc to compile the php file they got from some website.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's still great for pissing off annoying lusers who are absolutely certain they need to use program x to do task y.Of course , when you try to figure out what " y " is those lusers go on to places like slashdot to whine about how OSS support is terrible and cruel and refused to just tell them why their gcc does n't work when all they wanted to do was get gcc to compile the php file they got from some website .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's still great for pissing off annoying lusers who are absolutely certain they need to use program x to do task y.Of course, when you try to figure out what "y" is those lusers go on to places like slashdot to whine about how OSS support is terrible and cruel and refused to just tell them why their gcc doesn't work when all they wanted to do was get gcc to compile the php file they got from some website.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092490</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30093684</id>
	<title>Gun or bullets or people?</title>
	<author>ivoras</author>
	<datestamp>1258118880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do guns kill people? Do bullets? Do people kill people?</p><p>This looks like a very gray area - is the gun and bullet factory to blame for each murder? Did the programmers have direct positive benefit from the code besides their salaries? Who is actually "running" the "black box" - the programmers? The sysadmins? Madoff? His company?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... ethical mine field.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do guns kill people ?
Do bullets ?
Do people kill people ? This looks like a very gray area - is the gun and bullet factory to blame for each murder ?
Did the programmers have direct positive benefit from the code besides their salaries ?
Who is actually " running " the " black box " - the programmers ?
The sysadmins ?
Madoff ? His company ?
... ethical mine field .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do guns kill people?
Do bullets?
Do people kill people?This looks like a very gray area - is the gun and bullet factory to blame for each murder?
Did the programmers have direct positive benefit from the code besides their salaries?
Who is actually "running" the "black box" - the programmers?
The sysadmins?
Madoff? His company?
... ethical mine field.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30093044</id>
	<title>What about his banker, Chase?</title>
	<author>technobabblingfool</author>
	<datestamp>1258114140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>


Madoff kept all of his billions of money in a single account at JP
Morgan Chase bank. If they are going to bust his programmers,
they should bust his bank too. Even for a bank the size of Chase,
Madoff just leaving billions of dollars sitting in the account instead
of investing it like he claimed to be doing must have gotten their
attention one or a hundred times. If the <a href="http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1887338,00.html" title="time.com" rel="nofollow">bank
looked the other way</a> [time.com] to hang onto a lucrative cash deposit, they
are just as guilty as the programmers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Madoff kept all of his billions of money in a single account at JP Morgan Chase bank .
If they are going to bust his programmers , they should bust his bank too .
Even for a bank the size of Chase , Madoff just leaving billions of dollars sitting in the account instead of investing it like he claimed to be doing must have gotten their attention one or a hundred times .
If the bank looked the other way [ time.com ] to hang onto a lucrative cash deposit , they are just as guilty as the programmers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>


Madoff kept all of his billions of money in a single account at JP
Morgan Chase bank.
If they are going to bust his programmers,
they should bust his bank too.
Even for a bank the size of Chase,
Madoff just leaving billions of dollars sitting in the account instead
of investing it like he claimed to be doing must have gotten their
attention one or a hundred times.
If the bank
looked the other way [time.com] to hang onto a lucrative cash deposit, they
are just as guilty as the programmers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30095072</id>
	<title>A blatant disregard for due diligence</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258134000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That would survive external examination, but not a real audit.</p></div><p>For all the times that the SEC was warned / tipped-off about Madoff's returns<br>being fishy, and all the <i>other</i> fund managers that invested their clients'<br>funds into Madoff's pyramid, NOBODY looked for the simplest "tell" of all - look<br>at Madoff's trading records: he made NONE - ZIP - ZERO - NO TRADES on behalf of<br>his clients.  The statements that went out should hundreds of trades per week,<br>but the exchanges did not show a single transaction by Madoff!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That would survive external examination , but not a real audit.For all the times that the SEC was warned / tipped-off about Madoff 's returnsbeing fishy , and all the other fund managers that invested their clients'funds into Madoff 's pyramid , NOBODY looked for the simplest " tell " of all - lookat Madoff 's trading records : he made NONE - ZIP - ZERO - NO TRADES on behalf ofhis clients .
The statements that went out should hundreds of trades per week,but the exchanges did not show a single transaction by Madoff !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That would survive external examination, but not a real audit.For all the times that the SEC was warned / tipped-off about Madoff's returnsbeing fishy, and all the other fund managers that invested their clients'funds into Madoff's pyramid, NOBODY looked for the simplest "tell" of all - lookat Madoff's trading records: he made NONE - ZIP - ZERO - NO TRADES on behalf ofhis clients.
The statements that went out should hundreds of trades per week,but the exchanges did not show a single transaction by Madoff!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091880</id>
	<title>Re:Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>Tumbleweed</author>
	<datestamp>1258107060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>If you destroy evidence, make sure you destroy the backups, too.</i></p><p>Also, make sure you destroy evidence of your destruction of evidence and backups.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you destroy evidence , make sure you destroy the backups , too.Also , make sure you destroy evidence of your destruction of evidence and backups .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you destroy evidence, make sure you destroy the backups, too.Also, make sure you destroy evidence of your destruction of evidence and backups.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091684</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092152</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>CannonballHead</author>
	<datestamp>1258108560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The injunction of Jesus to love others as ourselves is an endorsement of self-interest</p></div><p>Ah yes.  A great Biblical scholar.  All Biblical scholars know that Jesus definitely was trying to protect self-interest.  So was Paul, when he said</p><p><div class="quote"><p> <b>Philippians 2:3 (New International Version)</b>
<br>Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.</p></div><p>And Jesus when He talked about being meek, humble, lowly, generous, forgiving, feeding the poor, clothing the naked.  And the rest of the Bible when it talks about humility, that God hates the pride, that God "sides" with the humble, that God resists the proud, that God sees the poor and needy, that God judges the unjust - especially when they are rich and they unjustly treat the poor<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><p>Definitely "an endorsement of self-interest."  Frankly, I would guess that Griffiths has never read the Bible but pulled that quote from somewhere because he was in St. Paul's Cathedral and thus wanted to appear religious in some way.  To most people that actually have read the Bible and even more so to people that believe it, he only comes off as being ignorant and just using the words of Jesus to excuse his own selfishness and greed (also talked about in the Bible in quite condemning terms).  Not sure that's what he meant to do.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The injunction of Jesus to love others as ourselves is an endorsement of self-interestAh yes .
A great Biblical scholar .
All Biblical scholars know that Jesus definitely was trying to protect self-interest .
So was Paul , when he said Philippians 2 : 3 ( New International Version ) Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit , but in humility consider others better than yourselves.And Jesus when He talked about being meek , humble , lowly , generous , forgiving , feeding the poor , clothing the naked .
And the rest of the Bible when it talks about humility , that God hates the pride , that God " sides " with the humble , that God resists the proud , that God sees the poor and needy , that God judges the unjust - especially when they are rich and they unjustly treat the poor ...Definitely " an endorsement of self-interest .
" Frankly , I would guess that Griffiths has never read the Bible but pulled that quote from somewhere because he was in St. Paul 's Cathedral and thus wanted to appear religious in some way .
To most people that actually have read the Bible and even more so to people that believe it , he only comes off as being ignorant and just using the words of Jesus to excuse his own selfishness and greed ( also talked about in the Bible in quite condemning terms ) .
Not sure that 's what he meant to do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The injunction of Jesus to love others as ourselves is an endorsement of self-interestAh yes.
A great Biblical scholar.
All Biblical scholars know that Jesus definitely was trying to protect self-interest.
So was Paul, when he said Philippians 2:3 (New International Version)
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.And Jesus when He talked about being meek, humble, lowly, generous, forgiving, feeding the poor, clothing the naked.
And the rest of the Bible when it talks about humility, that God hates the pride, that God "sides" with the humble, that God resists the proud, that God sees the poor and needy, that God judges the unjust - especially when they are rich and they unjustly treat the poor ...Definitely "an endorsement of self-interest.
"  Frankly, I would guess that Griffiths has never read the Bible but pulled that quote from somewhere because he was in St. Paul's Cathedral and thus wanted to appear religious in some way.
To most people that actually have read the Bible and even more so to people that believe it, he only comes off as being ignorant and just using the words of Jesus to excuse his own selfishness and greed (also talked about in the Bible in quite condemning terms).
Not sure that's what he meant to do.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091832</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30095586</id>
	<title>Re:Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>Concerned Onlooker</author>
	<datestamp>1258229220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"If you destroy evidence, make sure you destroy the backups, too."</p><p>No, that would be the Immoral of the Story.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" If you destroy evidence , make sure you destroy the backups , too .
" No , that would be the Immoral of the Story .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"If you destroy evidence, make sure you destroy the backups, too.
"No, that would be the Immoral of the Story.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091684</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092274</id>
	<title>Hmmm...</title>
	<author>tds67</author>
	<datestamp>1258109340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Madoff's long-time deputy's name is Frank DiPascali?  I would have figured he would be the computer programmer.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Madoff 's long-time deputy 's name is Frank DiPascali ?
I would have figured he would be the computer programmer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Madoff's long-time deputy's name is Frank DiPascali?
I would have figured he would be the computer programmer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30095384</id>
	<title>Re:Moral of the story:</title>
	<author>caywen</author>
	<datestamp>1258138740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hopefully they weren't doing just doing svn delete.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hopefully they were n't doing just doing svn delete .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hopefully they weren't doing just doing svn delete.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092004</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092372</id>
	<title>I'm disappointed at /. mods :(</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258109760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How in hell can you programmer types mod that redundant? It should be "Recursive"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How in hell can you programmer types mod that redundant ?
It should be " Recursive "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How in hell can you programmer types mod that redundant?
It should be "Recursive"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092004</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30093282</id>
	<title>Re:And this, boys and girls....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258115820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Better throw "export HISTFILE=/dev/null" in your<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.profile then...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Better throw " export HISTFILE = /dev/null " in your .profile then.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Better throw "export HISTFILE=/dev/null" in your .profile then...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092528</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30095164</id>
	<title>Re:What's the motivation?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258135380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would have done it too - but I would have checked my code in under some elses name... someone who was here for the day<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would have done it too - but I would have checked my code in under some elses name... someone who was here for the day ; ) ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would have done it too - but I would have checked my code in under some elses name... someone who was here for the day ;) ;)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092002</parent>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_13_1715202_40</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30093282
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092528
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_13_1715202_4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091970
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091684
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_13_1715202_25</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092044
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091928
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091852
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091704
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_13_1715202_41</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091966
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091736
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_13_1715202_32</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30106294
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092152
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091832
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091704
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_13_1715202_31</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30102874
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091860
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_13_1715202_22</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30095586
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091684
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_13_1715202_2</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092846
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091774
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091704
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_13_1715202_47</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30093432
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30092528
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_13_1715202_23</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30095266
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_13_1715202.30091684
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
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