<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_11_12_2251209</id>
	<title>Recovering the Slums of the Internet?</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1258023420000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>turtleshadow writes <i>"Brian Krebs of the Security Fix  Blog analyzes the McColo Spamming one year later and asks an interesting question: '<a href="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2009/11/a\_year\_later\_a\_look\_back\_at\_mc.html">How does one renovate and recoup the lost trust</a> to the slums of the Internet and reclaim back all the domains and IPs that have been blacklisted?' Indeed, the economic benefits abound when a huge swath of illegal and annoying activity ceases &mdash; but given the basic design of the Internet, what happens over the long run to IP space and DNS when hosting companies come and go and vary in their trustworthiness?  So too, now Geocities is dead [as a business], but does that still live in your filter list?  It still appears in OpenDNS under several policy categories. How, in a few years, will I tell if some Hosting/Colo sold me Whitechapel Road/Ventura Avenue for Mayfair/Boardwalk prices, and no one is going to accept my mail from a former slum? When do you, if ever, roll back the blacklists and filters for 'dead' threats and spammers?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>turtleshadow writes " Brian Krebs of the Security Fix Blog analyzes the McColo Spamming one year later and asks an interesting question : 'How does one renovate and recoup the lost trust to the slums of the Internet and reclaim back all the domains and IPs that have been blacklisted ?
' Indeed , the economic benefits abound when a huge swath of illegal and annoying activity ceases    but given the basic design of the Internet , what happens over the long run to IP space and DNS when hosting companies come and go and vary in their trustworthiness ?
So too , now Geocities is dead [ as a business ] , but does that still live in your filter list ?
It still appears in OpenDNS under several policy categories .
How , in a few years , will I tell if some Hosting/Colo sold me Whitechapel Road/Ventura Avenue for Mayfair/Boardwalk prices , and no one is going to accept my mail from a former slum ?
When do you , if ever , roll back the blacklists and filters for 'dead ' threats and spammers ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>turtleshadow writes "Brian Krebs of the Security Fix  Blog analyzes the McColo Spamming one year later and asks an interesting question: 'How does one renovate and recoup the lost trust to the slums of the Internet and reclaim back all the domains and IPs that have been blacklisted?
' Indeed, the economic benefits abound when a huge swath of illegal and annoying activity ceases — but given the basic design of the Internet, what happens over the long run to IP space and DNS when hosting companies come and go and vary in their trustworthiness?
So too, now Geocities is dead [as a business], but does that still live in your filter list?
It still appears in OpenDNS under several policy categories.
How, in a few years, will I tell if some Hosting/Colo sold me Whitechapel Road/Ventura Avenue for Mayfair/Boardwalk prices, and no one is going to accept my mail from a former slum?
When do you, if ever, roll back the blacklists and filters for 'dead' threats and spammers?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081024</id>
	<title>Eminent Domain</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258028160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Followed by handing over the domains to a rich developer to build an on-line sports stadium.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Followed by handing over the domains to a rich developer to build an on-line sports stadium .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Followed by handing over the domains to a rich developer to build an on-line sports stadium.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30091460</id>
	<title>Address Blocks</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258104960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Imagine if we treated real mail the same way?</p><p>Block by carrier? (Sorry USPS, you delivered too much junk mail)<br>Block by street?  Neighborhood?  City? State?  (Sorry New Hampshire).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Imagine if we treated real mail the same way ? Block by carrier ?
( Sorry USPS , you delivered too much junk mail ) Block by street ?
Neighborhood ? City ?
State ? ( Sorry New Hampshire ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Imagine if we treated real mail the same way?Block by carrier?
(Sorry USPS, you delivered too much junk mail)Block by street?
Neighborhood?  City?
State?  (Sorry New Hampshire).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080810</id>
	<title>OMG WTF PONNIES!!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258027140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>OMG WTF PONNIES!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>OMG WTF PONNIES ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>OMG WTF PONNIES!!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30083250</id>
	<title>Re:4chan</title>
	<author>wvmarle</author>
	<datestamp>1258044300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That site is very little more than a showcase of the very worst, morally, psychologically, and emotionally, that humanity is capable of.</p></div><p>Which is why<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/b/ tends to provide great entertainment. It is always impressive to see how low people can go for their 15 seconds of "fame".</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That site is very little more than a showcase of the very worst , morally , psychologically , and emotionally , that humanity is capable of.Which is why /b/ tends to provide great entertainment .
It is always impressive to see how low people can go for their 15 seconds of " fame " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That site is very little more than a showcase of the very worst, morally, psychologically, and emotionally, that humanity is capable of.Which is why /b/ tends to provide great entertainment.
It is always impressive to see how low people can go for their 15 seconds of "fame".
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081866</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30083962</id>
	<title>Blacklist recycling</title>
	<author>Pf0tzenpfritz</author>
	<datestamp>1258053120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>On my webserver, I delete the upper third of all addresses in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/hosts.deny every couple of weeks.
One hour later they usually are back at the bottom of the file. Maybe I should run a weekly line count and collect some stats on it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>On my webserver , I delete the upper third of all addresses in /etc/hosts.deny every couple of weeks .
One hour later they usually are back at the bottom of the file .
Maybe I should run a weekly line count and collect some stats on it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On my webserver, I delete the upper third of all addresses in /etc/hosts.deny every couple of weeks.
One hour later they usually are back at the bottom of the file.
Maybe I should run a weekly line count and collect some stats on it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080800</id>
	<title>Solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258027140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>IPv6!</htmltext>
<tokenext>IPv6 !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IPv6!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30082562</id>
	<title>Re:4chan</title>
	<author>Aokisensei</author>
	<datestamp>1258038360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In defense of 4chan (yes, I said it), it's really mostly<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/b/ and maybe a few other boards that are disgusting and vile.</p><p>I tend to stay on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/a/ and<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/c/ (anime and anime/cute boards) and it stays relatively civil and sane and within something that resembles the boundaries of most people's moral decencies.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In defense of 4chan ( yes , I said it ) , it 's really mostly /b/ and maybe a few other boards that are disgusting and vile.I tend to stay on /a/ and /c/ ( anime and anime/cute boards ) and it stays relatively civil and sane and within something that resembles the boundaries of most people 's moral decencies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In defense of 4chan (yes, I said it), it's really mostly /b/ and maybe a few other boards that are disgusting and vile.I tend to stay on /a/ and /c/ (anime and anime/cute boards) and it stays relatively civil and sane and within something that resembles the boundaries of most people's moral decencies.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081180</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30088296</id>
	<title>Re:Easy solution:</title>
	<author>ultranova</author>
	<datestamp>1258135140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>If you only use blacklisting as a very small part of your overall filter scoring, you won't have problems when the IPs in question get turned over to non-spammers.</p></div> </blockquote><p> <em>I</em> won't have problems; whoever bought IPs from spammers and is now trying to contact me will have problems.</p><p>If I know you, you have other means at your disposal to contact me and ask to be added to my whitelist/filter-exceptions; and if I don't know you, chances are that I don't want your communication in the first place.</p><p>Rather than have a single e-mail address, I'll nowadays get a new address for each contact I wish to maintain, and drop it if it starts getting spammed. If I need to accept inbound contact attempts from unknown people, I'll make a new address for that. I also use throwaway addresses for registering into forums that require them.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you only use blacklisting as a very small part of your overall filter scoring , you wo n't have problems when the IPs in question get turned over to non-spammers .
I wo n't have problems ; whoever bought IPs from spammers and is now trying to contact me will have problems.If I know you , you have other means at your disposal to contact me and ask to be added to my whitelist/filter-exceptions ; and if I do n't know you , chances are that I do n't want your communication in the first place.Rather than have a single e-mail address , I 'll nowadays get a new address for each contact I wish to maintain , and drop it if it starts getting spammed .
If I need to accept inbound contact attempts from unknown people , I 'll make a new address for that .
I also use throwaway addresses for registering into forums that require them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you only use blacklisting as a very small part of your overall filter scoring, you won't have problems when the IPs in question get turned over to non-spammers.
I won't have problems; whoever bought IPs from spammers and is now trying to contact me will have problems.If I know you, you have other means at your disposal to contact me and ask to be added to my whitelist/filter-exceptions; and if I don't know you, chances are that I don't want your communication in the first place.Rather than have a single e-mail address, I'll nowadays get a new address for each contact I wish to maintain, and drop it if it starts getting spammed.
If I need to accept inbound contact attempts from unknown people, I'll make a new address for that.
I also use throwaway addresses for registering into forums that require them.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080876</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30082114</id>
	<title>Re:1 year</title>
	<author>zippthorne</author>
	<datestamp>1258034460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Agreed.  Also, all laws must be <em>read</em> into the record.  That'll put an upper bound on the sheer magnitude of legislation and guaranteed that the aforementioned laws have been read at least once.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed .
Also , all laws must be read into the record .
That 'll put an upper bound on the sheer magnitude of legislation and guaranteed that the aforementioned laws have been read at least once .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed.
Also, all laws must be read into the record.
That'll put an upper bound on the sheer magnitude of legislation and guaranteed that the aforementioned laws have been read at least once.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081198</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30086676</id>
	<title>Re:Easy solution:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258127280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Stop relying on blacklists as your primarily (or only!) filtering mechanism.</i></p><p>Urm, no. Blacklists are the only working solution I have found to spam. A false positive in a filtering setup may be unnoticed (I know hordes of people who never check their spambox for false positives before they clean it), while a false positive in a blocklist setup will result in the sender being notified of the failure. Notification of delivery failure &gt;&gt;&gt; message lost.</p><p>Smart use of blocklists results in 99,98\% blocking for me, and me and my users are perfectly able to deal with the occasional spam reaching our inbox. As far as I'm concerned spam is a non-issue, and has been for years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Stop relying on blacklists as your primarily ( or only !
) filtering mechanism.Urm , no .
Blacklists are the only working solution I have found to spam .
A false positive in a filtering setup may be unnoticed ( I know hordes of people who never check their spambox for false positives before they clean it ) , while a false positive in a blocklist setup will result in the sender being notified of the failure .
Notification of delivery failure &gt; &gt; &gt; message lost.Smart use of blocklists results in 99,98 \ % blocking for me , and me and my users are perfectly able to deal with the occasional spam reaching our inbox .
As far as I 'm concerned spam is a non-issue , and has been for years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stop relying on blacklists as your primarily (or only!
) filtering mechanism.Urm, no.
Blacklists are the only working solution I have found to spam.
A false positive in a filtering setup may be unnoticed (I know hordes of people who never check their spambox for false positives before they clean it), while a false positive in a blocklist setup will result in the sender being notified of the failure.
Notification of delivery failure &gt;&gt;&gt; message lost.Smart use of blocklists results in 99,98\% blocking for me, and me and my users are perfectly able to deal with the occasional spam reaching our inbox.
As far as I'm concerned spam is a non-issue, and has been for years.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080876</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30082768</id>
	<title>Re:who's on first?</title>
	<author>rockNme2349</author>
	<datestamp>1258040400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What gives you that idea?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What gives you that idea ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What gives you that idea?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080822</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30084420</id>
	<title>Blacklists should expire agressively</title>
	<author>badger.foo</author>
	<datestamp>1258102920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The problem here seems to be badly maintained blacklists. After seeing way too many false positives on various blacklists out there, the only lists I would use are ones that expire their entries in a matter of days or hours. The good ones that I use are <a href="http://www.openbsd.org/spamd/traplist.gz" title="openbsd.org">uatraps</a> [openbsd.org] (greytrapping generated, 24 hour expiry) and <a href="http://www.heise.de/ix/nixspam/dnsbl\_en/" title="heise.de">nixspam</a> [heise.de] (IIRC max 4 days after last seen spam activity).  Then of course I maintain my own greytrap list (see the <a href="http://www.bsdly.net/~peter/traplist.shtml" title="bsdly.net">traplist homepage</a> [bsdly.net] and the <a href="http://www.bsdly.net/~peter/traplist\_ethics.html" title="bsdly.net">traplist ethics page</a> [bsdly.net]for details).
<br> <br>
The point is, you need to expire entries aggressively.  Keeping entries around because somebody received a spam from somewhere in that general direction four years ago is just silly. And don't get me started on blacklisting domains. If there is one thing we know with almost total certainty, it is that spammers <i>never</i> use <tt>From:</tt> or <tt>Reply-to:</tt> addresses that have anything vaguely to do with the real senders.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem here seems to be badly maintained blacklists .
After seeing way too many false positives on various blacklists out there , the only lists I would use are ones that expire their entries in a matter of days or hours .
The good ones that I use are uatraps [ openbsd.org ] ( greytrapping generated , 24 hour expiry ) and nixspam [ heise.de ] ( IIRC max 4 days after last seen spam activity ) .
Then of course I maintain my own greytrap list ( see the traplist homepage [ bsdly.net ] and the traplist ethics page [ bsdly.net ] for details ) .
The point is , you need to expire entries aggressively .
Keeping entries around because somebody received a spam from somewhere in that general direction four years ago is just silly .
And do n't get me started on blacklisting domains .
If there is one thing we know with almost total certainty , it is that spammers never use From : or Reply-to : addresses that have anything vaguely to do with the real senders .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem here seems to be badly maintained blacklists.
After seeing way too many false positives on various blacklists out there, the only lists I would use are ones that expire their entries in a matter of days or hours.
The good ones that I use are uatraps [openbsd.org] (greytrapping generated, 24 hour expiry) and nixspam [heise.de] (IIRC max 4 days after last seen spam activity).
Then of course I maintain my own greytrap list (see the traplist homepage [bsdly.net] and the traplist ethics page [bsdly.net]for details).
The point is, you need to expire entries aggressively.
Keeping entries around because somebody received a spam from somewhere in that general direction four years ago is just silly.
And don't get me started on blacklisting domains.
If there is one thing we know with almost total certainty, it is that spammers never use From: or Reply-to: addresses that have anything vaguely to do with the real senders.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081100</id>
	<title>90 percent of blacklists are crap...</title>
	<author>bmo</author>
	<datestamp>1258028460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...because 90 percent of everything is crap.</p><p>&gt; So too, now Geocities is dead [as a business], but does that still live in your filter list? It still appears in OpenDNS under several policy categories.</p><p>If you filter via OpenDNS, then you get what you deserve.</p><p>If you've done *any* metamoderating of OpenDNS website classifications, you will soon decide that poo flinging chimpanzees are more accurate.</p><p>I came, I saw, I ran away screaming.</p><p>--<br>BMO</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...because 90 percent of everything is crap. &gt; So too , now Geocities is dead [ as a business ] , but does that still live in your filter list ?
It still appears in OpenDNS under several policy categories.If you filter via OpenDNS , then you get what you deserve.If you 've done * any * metamoderating of OpenDNS website classifications , you will soon decide that poo flinging chimpanzees are more accurate.I came , I saw , I ran away screaming.--BMO</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...because 90 percent of everything is crap.&gt; So too, now Geocities is dead [as a business], but does that still live in your filter list?
It still appears in OpenDNS under several policy categories.If you filter via OpenDNS, then you get what you deserve.If you've done *any* metamoderating of OpenDNS website classifications, you will soon decide that poo flinging chimpanzees are more accurate.I came, I saw, I ran away screaming.--BMO</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30084922</id>
	<title>I read it as "slurms"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258111200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I read it as "slurms".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I read it as " slurms " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I read it as "slurms".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080908</id>
	<title>What slums trust who now?</title>
	<author>Quiet\_Desperation</author>
	<datestamp>1258027620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think I've gone aphasic. The summary/quote didn't make an ounce of sense to me.</div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think I 've gone aphasic .
The summary/quote did n't make an ounce of sense to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think I've gone aphasic.
The summary/quote didn't make an ounce of sense to me.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30086488</id>
	<title>Re:Easy solution:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258126500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Blacklists can be great if they are effectively managed.  A dumb text file that you drop IPs into and forget about is lame.  There are easy to use tools like <a href="http://www.benzedrine.cx/relaydb.html" title="benzedrine.cx" rel="nofollow">relaydb</a> [benzedrine.cx] in any *BSD ports tree.  Given the system resources required to scan mail for spam and viruses, a dynamic blacklist can keep things rolling along at a nice clip.  Use after helo checks and before your RBLs.  Good blacklists don't keep non-offending IPs around for more than a day or two.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Blacklists can be great if they are effectively managed .
A dumb text file that you drop IPs into and forget about is lame .
There are easy to use tools like relaydb [ benzedrine.cx ] in any * BSD ports tree .
Given the system resources required to scan mail for spam and viruses , a dynamic blacklist can keep things rolling along at a nice clip .
Use after helo checks and before your RBLs .
Good blacklists do n't keep non-offending IPs around for more than a day or two .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Blacklists can be great if they are effectively managed.
A dumb text file that you drop IPs into and forget about is lame.
There are easy to use tools like relaydb [benzedrine.cx] in any *BSD ports tree.
Given the system resources required to scan mail for spam and viruses, a dynamic blacklist can keep things rolling along at a nice clip.
Use after helo checks and before your RBLs.
Good blacklists don't keep non-offending IPs around for more than a day or two.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080876</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080822</id>
	<title>who's on first?</title>
	<author>pilgrim23</author>
	<datestamp>1258027200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>did not Godaddy get its start registering pr0n sites?</htmltext>
<tokenext>did not Godaddy get its start registering pr0n sites ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>did not Godaddy get its start registering pr0n sites?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081218</id>
	<title>Re:How does one renovate and recoup the lost trust</title>
	<author>proxy318</author>
	<datestamp>1258029120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You don't. The Internet never forgets, never forgives.</p></div><p>Never sleeps either. The internet waits.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't .
The Internet never forgets , never forgives.Never sleeps either .
The internet waits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't.
The Internet never forgets, never forgives.Never sleeps either.
The internet waits.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080902</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30082080</id>
	<title>Re:Usually never</title>
	<author>schon</author>
	<datestamp>1258034280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Like you, I blacklist at my firewall... I also send reports to the block's owner... unlike you (apparently<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)  I go through my blacklist every few months, and if there haven't been any hits from that block, I'll remove it.  I figure that will prevent the list from eventually becoming 0.0.0.0/0.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Like you , I blacklist at my firewall... I also send reports to the block 's owner... unlike you ( apparently : ) I go through my blacklist every few months , and if there have n't been any hits from that block , I 'll remove it .
I figure that will prevent the list from eventually becoming 0.0.0.0/0 .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Like you, I blacklist at my firewall... I also send reports to the block's owner... unlike you (apparently :)  I go through my blacklist every few months, and if there haven't been any hits from that block, I'll remove it.
I figure that will prevent the list from eventually becoming 0.0.0.0/0.
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080916</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30082702</id>
	<title>blocklisted?</title>
	<author>socsoc</author>
	<datestamp>1258039920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>A heavily blocklisted network quickly becomes unattractive to legitimate businesses</p></div><p>Is that like a blacklisted net?  Can someone spam them an editor please?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>A heavily blocklisted network quickly becomes unattractive to legitimate businessesIs that like a blacklisted net ?
Can someone spam them an editor please ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A heavily blocklisted network quickly becomes unattractive to legitimate businessesIs that like a blacklisted net?
Can someone spam them an editor please?
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080966</id>
	<title>Easy</title>
	<author>Jazz-Masta</author>
	<datestamp>1258027800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Before you order a co-lo, agree that it has to pass certain checks, such as a blacklist check.</p><p>http://www.mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspx</p><p>As for decreasing IP space, IPv6 (real or tunneling) is available at most large co-lo places, so that won't be a problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Before you order a co-lo , agree that it has to pass certain checks , such as a blacklist check.http : //www.mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspxAs for decreasing IP space , IPv6 ( real or tunneling ) is available at most large co-lo places , so that wo n't be a problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Before you order a co-lo, agree that it has to pass certain checks, such as a blacklist check.http://www.mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspxAs for decreasing IP space, IPv6 (real or tunneling) is available at most large co-lo places, so that won't be a problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080896</id>
	<title>haha funny</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258027560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>lets start by saying this:<br>more people actually trust some hackers then you realize and if you htink your corporate propoganda will help you um change that go play in your sandboxes cause its getting worse for your TRUST not better and watch the next set of elections as voter turnout really plummets</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>lets start by saying this : more people actually trust some hackers then you realize and if you htink your corporate propoganda will help you um change that go play in your sandboxes cause its getting worse for your TRUST not better and watch the next set of elections as voter turnout really plummets</tokentext>
<sentencetext>lets start by saying this:more people actually trust some hackers then you realize and if you htink your corporate propoganda will help you um change that go play in your sandboxes cause its getting worse for your TRUST not better and watch the next set of elections as voter turnout really plummets</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30083140</id>
	<title>Wait a few years</title>
	<author>Animats</author>
	<datestamp>1258043220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Wait a few years.  In five years or so, those addresses will have scrolled off blacklists.  It's not a big deal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wait a few years .
In five years or so , those addresses will have scrolled off blacklists .
It 's not a big deal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Wait a few years.
In five years or so, those addresses will have scrolled off blacklists.
It's not a big deal.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081400</id>
	<title>Exactly!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258030080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They're desperate to show that they're doing something.  Make it so they have to do something to maintain the status quo and everybody's happy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They 're desperate to show that they 're doing something .
Make it so they have to do something to maintain the status quo and everybody 's happy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They're desperate to show that they're doing something.
Make it so they have to do something to maintain the status quo and everybody's happy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081198</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30082920</id>
	<title>Re:How does one renovate and recoup the lost trust</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258041600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We are legion.  Expect us.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We are legion .
Expect us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We are legion.
Expect us.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080902</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081044</id>
	<title>Obligatory grammar nazi</title>
	<author>BenoitRen</author>
	<datestamp>1258028220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>all the domains and IP's</p></div> </blockquote><p>You do not use the apostrophe to pluralise.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>all the domains and IP 's You do not use the apostrophe to pluralise .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>all the domains and IP's You do not use the apostrophe to pluralise.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081866</id>
	<title>Re:4chan</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258032900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Mod parent +5,000, Insightful.</p><p>Seriously; if maintaining your level of faith in the compassion, empathy, and fundamental decency of the human species is something you care about, don't ever visit 4chan.</p><p>That site is very little more than a showcase of the very worst, morally, psychologically, and emotionally, that humanity is capable of.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Mod parent + 5,000 , Insightful.Seriously ; if maintaining your level of faith in the compassion , empathy , and fundamental decency of the human species is something you care about , do n't ever visit 4chan.That site is very little more than a showcase of the very worst , morally , psychologically , and emotionally , that humanity is capable of .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mod parent +5,000, Insightful.Seriously; if maintaining your level of faith in the compassion, empathy, and fundamental decency of the human species is something you care about, don't ever visit 4chan.That site is very little more than a showcase of the very worst, morally, psychologically, and emotionally, that humanity is capable of.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081180</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080876</id>
	<title>Easy solution:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258027500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Stop relying on blacklists as your primarily (or only!) filtering mechanism.  There are far more sophisticated filtering solutions out there these days.  Filtering based solely on blacklists is antiquated, ineffective, and vulnerable to massive issues with false positives.  If you only use blacklisting as a very small part of your overall filter scoring, you won't have problems when the IPs in question get turned over to non-spammers.  Sure, they'll still end up with a non-zero "spam" score, but not a high enough one to be blocked.<br> <br>
And, of course, you should regularly be looking at your entire setup, including filtering, on a regular basis to make sure the solution you have is still the best one for your situation.  Technology, and the Internet, changes too rapidly to take a "set and forget" attitude toward anything, especially filtering.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Stop relying on blacklists as your primarily ( or only !
) filtering mechanism .
There are far more sophisticated filtering solutions out there these days .
Filtering based solely on blacklists is antiquated , ineffective , and vulnerable to massive issues with false positives .
If you only use blacklisting as a very small part of your overall filter scoring , you wo n't have problems when the IPs in question get turned over to non-spammers .
Sure , they 'll still end up with a non-zero " spam " score , but not a high enough one to be blocked .
And , of course , you should regularly be looking at your entire setup , including filtering , on a regular basis to make sure the solution you have is still the best one for your situation .
Technology , and the Internet , changes too rapidly to take a " set and forget " attitude toward anything , especially filtering .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stop relying on blacklists as your primarily (or only!
) filtering mechanism.
There are far more sophisticated filtering solutions out there these days.
Filtering based solely on blacklists is antiquated, ineffective, and vulnerable to massive issues with false positives.
If you only use blacklisting as a very small part of your overall filter scoring, you won't have problems when the IPs in question get turned over to non-spammers.
Sure, they'll still end up with a non-zero "spam" score, but not a high enough one to be blocked.
And, of course, you should regularly be looking at your entire setup, including filtering, on a regular basis to make sure the solution you have is still the best one for your situation.
Technology, and the Internet, changes too rapidly to take a "set and forget" attitude toward anything, especially filtering.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080852</id>
	<title>What slums?</title>
	<author>Dunbal</author>
	<datestamp>1258027320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I thought they'd switched off geocities already?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I thought they 'd switched off geocities already ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I thought they'd switched off geocities already?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080906</id>
	<title>this is a SERIOUS problem</title>
	<author>pele</author>
	<datestamp>1258027560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>that SORBS bastard wanted to charge me $50 to take my new block of IPs off his/her/its list!</p><p>hah, good luck SORBS is out of business now!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>that SORBS bastard wanted to charge me $ 50 to take my new block of IPs off his/her/its list ! hah , good luck SORBS is out of business now !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>that SORBS bastard wanted to charge me $50 to take my new block of IPs off his/her/its list!hah, good luck SORBS is out of business now!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30091138</id>
	<title>Re:4chan</title>
	<author>skeeto</author>
	<datestamp>1258103520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>a showcase of the very worst, morally, psychologically, and emotionally, that humanity is capable of.</p></div><p>It gets even worse than 4chan in the dark corners of anonymous networks.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>a showcase of the very worst , morally , psychologically , and emotionally , that humanity is capable of.It gets even worse than 4chan in the dark corners of anonymous networks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>a showcase of the very worst, morally, psychologically, and emotionally, that humanity is capable of.It gets even worse than 4chan in the dark corners of anonymous networks.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081866</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30084270</id>
	<title>Re:How does one renovate and recoup the lost trust</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258143900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; Never sleeps either. The internet waits.</p><p>I thought Al Gore was the Internet, not Chuck Norris?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; Never sleeps either .
The internet waits.I thought Al Gore was the Internet , not Chuck Norris ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; Never sleeps either.
The internet waits.I thought Al Gore was the Internet, not Chuck Norris?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081218</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30082574</id>
	<title>My situation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258038540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I setup my first postfix daemon, I failed. Took my days. One day, it seemed like it was working, but wasn't accepting username and password logins. I went to bed, didn't stop postfix.</p><p>The next day I get an email from my colo asking why some of my IPs are being blacklisted. The colo apparently got notified that two of my IP addresses are spammers. I looked at my logs and sure enough, I stupidly let postfix run as an open smtp server and some guy started using it to send out spam.</p><p>So I stopped that, but now what? Yahoo won't accept my emails. Craigslist won't accept my emails. Hotmail moves them into the junk folder. Yahoo had the best help.</p><p><a href="http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/postmaster/errors/;\_ylt=ArX8PxnGVabUYKQmtOrSQN5vMiV4" title="yahoo.com">http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/postmaster/errors/;\_ylt=ArX8PxnGVabUYKQmtOrSQN5vMiV4</a> [yahoo.com]</p><p>So the error message I was getting from Yahoo was related to spamhaus. I stopped postfix, finally got it up and running properly with authentication, and sent an email to the SBL list guys ( <a href="http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/delistingprocedure.html" title="spamhaus.org">http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/delistingprocedure.html</a> [spamhaus.org] ) and got delisted pretty quickly.</p><p>Sending emails to Yahoo now worked fine. Other places were slower to realize that I was not a spammer, but all in all, it took about 6 months for the dust to settle, and a few more emails to various places to say "hey! I am not a spammer!".</p><p>For a major business, this can be a problem, but these lists aren't private. When doing research on where to create your new home on the internet, checking to see if they are blacklisted anywhere first would be a prudent thing to do.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I setup my first postfix daemon , I failed .
Took my days .
One day , it seemed like it was working , but was n't accepting username and password logins .
I went to bed , did n't stop postfix.The next day I get an email from my colo asking why some of my IPs are being blacklisted .
The colo apparently got notified that two of my IP addresses are spammers .
I looked at my logs and sure enough , I stupidly let postfix run as an open smtp server and some guy started using it to send out spam.So I stopped that , but now what ?
Yahoo wo n't accept my emails .
Craigslist wo n't accept my emails .
Hotmail moves them into the junk folder .
Yahoo had the best help.http : //help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/postmaster/errors/ ; \ _ylt = ArX8PxnGVabUYKQmtOrSQN5vMiV4 [ yahoo.com ] So the error message I was getting from Yahoo was related to spamhaus .
I stopped postfix , finally got it up and running properly with authentication , and sent an email to the SBL list guys ( http : //www.spamhaus.org/sbl/delistingprocedure.html [ spamhaus.org ] ) and got delisted pretty quickly.Sending emails to Yahoo now worked fine .
Other places were slower to realize that I was not a spammer , but all in all , it took about 6 months for the dust to settle , and a few more emails to various places to say " hey !
I am not a spammer !
" .For a major business , this can be a problem , but these lists are n't private .
When doing research on where to create your new home on the internet , checking to see if they are blacklisted anywhere first would be a prudent thing to do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I setup my first postfix daemon, I failed.
Took my days.
One day, it seemed like it was working, but wasn't accepting username and password logins.
I went to bed, didn't stop postfix.The next day I get an email from my colo asking why some of my IPs are being blacklisted.
The colo apparently got notified that two of my IP addresses are spammers.
I looked at my logs and sure enough, I stupidly let postfix run as an open smtp server and some guy started using it to send out spam.So I stopped that, but now what?
Yahoo won't accept my emails.
Craigslist won't accept my emails.
Hotmail moves them into the junk folder.
Yahoo had the best help.http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/postmaster/errors/;\_ylt=ArX8PxnGVabUYKQmtOrSQN5vMiV4 [yahoo.com]So the error message I was getting from Yahoo was related to spamhaus.
I stopped postfix, finally got it up and running properly with authentication, and sent an email to the SBL list guys ( http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/delistingprocedure.html [spamhaus.org] ) and got delisted pretty quickly.Sending emails to Yahoo now worked fine.
Other places were slower to realize that I was not a spammer, but all in all, it took about 6 months for the dust to settle, and a few more emails to various places to say "hey!
I am not a spammer!
".For a major business, this can be a problem, but these lists aren't private.
When doing research on where to create your new home on the internet, checking to see if they are blacklisted anywhere first would be a prudent thing to do.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30085484</id>
	<title>Re:Easy solution:</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1258119240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm not sure how you can complain about the Cragilist mail admins and then recommend someone uses gmail.  Twice, I've had spammers use my address in the From: field when spamming gmail accounts.  Even though I have SPF records set up correctly so that Google can easily tell that I am not the one sending the mail, they send a copy of every spam to me.  If it weren't for the fact that I have a couple of friends working there (not in the Gmail department), I'd block every mail from Google.  They make it trivial for spammers; just send the same spam to 1000 gmail accounts with different From: addresses and Google will happily relay it to 1000 people for you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure how you can complain about the Cragilist mail admins and then recommend someone uses gmail .
Twice , I 've had spammers use my address in the From : field when spamming gmail accounts .
Even though I have SPF records set up correctly so that Google can easily tell that I am not the one sending the mail , they send a copy of every spam to me .
If it were n't for the fact that I have a couple of friends working there ( not in the Gmail department ) , I 'd block every mail from Google .
They make it trivial for spammers ; just send the same spam to 1000 gmail accounts with different From : addresses and Google will happily relay it to 1000 people for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not sure how you can complain about the Cragilist mail admins and then recommend someone uses gmail.
Twice, I've had spammers use my address in the From: field when spamming gmail accounts.
Even though I have SPF records set up correctly so that Google can easily tell that I am not the one sending the mail, they send a copy of every spam to me.
If it weren't for the fact that I have a couple of friends working there (not in the Gmail department), I'd block every mail from Google.
They make it trivial for spammers; just send the same spam to 1000 gmail accounts with different From: addresses and Google will happily relay it to 1000 people for you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081698</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30082522</id>
	<title>Good question</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258038000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Aside from calling the IP allocations formerly used by criminals "slums", this is actually a very important question. All of McColo's space is still in my edge routers as "drop". I only checked because of the connection with this story. Does it make sense to drop those blocks now? I'm not entirely sure, and since no one is complaining (as yet), why WOULD I remove them?</p><p>Should we look to some authority to publish a list, something like the SpamHaus DROP list?<br>Should we start looking to ICANN to more strongly enforce removing bad actors? What rules, which guide lines? Is sending spam ok, but not being known to host fraud sites? Why? Who decides?</p><p>I think it highly ironic that SAVVIS commented upon IP allocations that are "poison" for email. Perhaps it's a case of "the burned hand teaches best." Those that deal with more than a modicum of email will know the back story to that vis-a-vi SAVVIS networks.</p><p>I may not be smart enough to have the answers, but I think I'm smart enough to know when someone asks a pretty drun good question. I think this is one.</p><p>Part of the answer may be for a system of distributed log inspection. Obviously, some of the information will need to be sanitized before being sent to third parties. Just as obviously, some way to keep the system from being abused by governments needs to be considered. How to do that without giving repressive governments a very powerful tool is something I've been thinking about for over five years. To date, I don't know that it can be done. I do think that if it cannot be closely kept to identifying command and control or infected hosts, it should NOT be done.</p><p>I want to shut down and stop criminals - not stifle those that protest against their governments.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Aside from calling the IP allocations formerly used by criminals " slums " , this is actually a very important question .
All of McColo 's space is still in my edge routers as " drop " .
I only checked because of the connection with this story .
Does it make sense to drop those blocks now ?
I 'm not entirely sure , and since no one is complaining ( as yet ) , why WOULD I remove them ? Should we look to some authority to publish a list , something like the SpamHaus DROP list ? Should we start looking to ICANN to more strongly enforce removing bad actors ?
What rules , which guide lines ?
Is sending spam ok , but not being known to host fraud sites ?
Why ? Who decides ? I think it highly ironic that SAVVIS commented upon IP allocations that are " poison " for email .
Perhaps it 's a case of " the burned hand teaches best .
" Those that deal with more than a modicum of email will know the back story to that vis-a-vi SAVVIS networks.I may not be smart enough to have the answers , but I think I 'm smart enough to know when someone asks a pretty drun good question .
I think this is one.Part of the answer may be for a system of distributed log inspection .
Obviously , some of the information will need to be sanitized before being sent to third parties .
Just as obviously , some way to keep the system from being abused by governments needs to be considered .
How to do that without giving repressive governments a very powerful tool is something I 've been thinking about for over five years .
To date , I do n't know that it can be done .
I do think that if it can not be closely kept to identifying command and control or infected hosts , it should NOT be done.I want to shut down and stop criminals - not stifle those that protest against their governments .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Aside from calling the IP allocations formerly used by criminals "slums", this is actually a very important question.
All of McColo's space is still in my edge routers as "drop".
I only checked because of the connection with this story.
Does it make sense to drop those blocks now?
I'm not entirely sure, and since no one is complaining (as yet), why WOULD I remove them?Should we look to some authority to publish a list, something like the SpamHaus DROP list?Should we start looking to ICANN to more strongly enforce removing bad actors?
What rules, which guide lines?
Is sending spam ok, but not being known to host fraud sites?
Why? Who decides?I think it highly ironic that SAVVIS commented upon IP allocations that are "poison" for email.
Perhaps it's a case of "the burned hand teaches best.
" Those that deal with more than a modicum of email will know the back story to that vis-a-vi SAVVIS networks.I may not be smart enough to have the answers, but I think I'm smart enough to know when someone asks a pretty drun good question.
I think this is one.Part of the answer may be for a system of distributed log inspection.
Obviously, some of the information will need to be sanitized before being sent to third parties.
Just as obviously, some way to keep the system from being abused by governments needs to be considered.
How to do that without giving repressive governments a very powerful tool is something I've been thinking about for over five years.
To date, I don't know that it can be done.
I do think that if it cannot be closely kept to identifying command and control or infected hosts, it should NOT be done.I want to shut down and stop criminals - not stifle those that protest against their governments.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30084784</id>
	<title>Re:You Don't. That's the point.</title>
	<author>Claws Of Doom</author>
	<datestamp>1258108980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Car Analogy:  If you're doing your own oil changes, and instead of hauling the waste oil to a recycler, you dump it into your backyard, don't complain when you try and sell your house and the highest bid still leaves you $100,000 underwater on your mortgage, or requires you to spend $150,000 remediating it.  Your property is worth less than it could have been, had you only been a better steward of it.</p></div><p>I'd hate to see your house analogies.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Car Analogy : If you 're doing your own oil changes , and instead of hauling the waste oil to a recycler , you dump it into your backyard , do n't complain when you try and sell your house and the highest bid still leaves you $ 100,000 underwater on your mortgage , or requires you to spend $ 150,000 remediating it .
Your property is worth less than it could have been , had you only been a better steward of it.I 'd hate to see your house analogies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Car Analogy:  If you're doing your own oil changes, and instead of hauling the waste oil to a recycler, you dump it into your backyard, don't complain when you try and sell your house and the highest bid still leaves you $100,000 underwater on your mortgage, or requires you to spend $150,000 remediating it.
Your property is worth less than it could have been, had you only been a better steward of it.I'd hate to see your house analogies.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080984</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080932</id>
	<title>Where are the cops?</title>
	<author>NoYob</author>
	<datestamp>1258027740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In addition, at least one fraud expert who works with a number of big name retailers said online retail fraud rates fell from around $250,000 per day to zero for a short time following McColo's takedow</p></div><p>Why aren't the cops there getting customers lists from McColo and going after the fraudsters?</p><p>As far as the toxic waste is concerned, have the Government take those toxic address and have the Government turn their current addresses back into the pool. That will detox those addresses quick.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In addition , at least one fraud expert who works with a number of big name retailers said online retail fraud rates fell from around $ 250,000 per day to zero for a short time following McColo 's takedowWhy are n't the cops there getting customers lists from McColo and going after the fraudsters ? As far as the toxic waste is concerned , have the Government take those toxic address and have the Government turn their current addresses back into the pool .
That will detox those addresses quick .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In addition, at least one fraud expert who works with a number of big name retailers said online retail fraud rates fell from around $250,000 per day to zero for a short time following McColo's takedowWhy aren't the cops there getting customers lists from McColo and going after the fraudsters?As far as the toxic waste is concerned, have the Government take those toxic address and have the Government turn their current addresses back into the pool.
That will detox those addresses quick.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081090</id>
	<title>Re:Where are the cops?</title>
	<author>Dunbal</author>
	<datestamp>1258028460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Why aren't the cops there getting customers lists from McColo and going after the fraudsters?</i></p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Because the police are far too busy going after the <a href="http://www.lockergnome.com/theoracle/2009/08/04/california-youth-arrested-for-hacking-game-consoles/" title="lockergnome.com">real</a> [lockergnome.com] <a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/01/31/boston.bombscare/" title="cnn.com">criminals</a> [cnn.com] to waste time with legitimate fraudsters.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why are n't the cops there getting customers lists from McColo and going after the fraudsters ?
      Because the police are far too busy going after the real [ lockergnome.com ] criminals [ cnn.com ] to waste time with legitimate fraudsters .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why aren't the cops there getting customers lists from McColo and going after the fraudsters?
      Because the police are far too busy going after the real [lockergnome.com] criminals [cnn.com] to waste time with legitimate fraudsters.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080932</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30097378</id>
	<title>Re:Easy solution:</title>
	<author>QuantumRiff</author>
	<datestamp>1258213080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You know, thats nice and all, but with a few blacklists, you are able to reduce your email traffic by a metric ton.  When I worked at a place that had a T1, you could measure the email traffic in double digit percentages.. After adding blacklists, it dropped to around 1\% of total traffic, since many of the blacklists stopped the email before sending the body of the message.  Now they use a Barracuda, which has a managed blacklist, but still, huge cut in traffic, and they had a 300Mhz p2 desktop running as their mailserver for a while, and it ran postfix just dandy for the 75 full time employees.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You know , thats nice and all , but with a few blacklists , you are able to reduce your email traffic by a metric ton .
When I worked at a place that had a T1 , you could measure the email traffic in double digit percentages.. After adding blacklists , it dropped to around 1 \ % of total traffic , since many of the blacklists stopped the email before sending the body of the message .
Now they use a Barracuda , which has a managed blacklist , but still , huge cut in traffic , and they had a 300Mhz p2 desktop running as their mailserver for a while , and it ran postfix just dandy for the 75 full time employees .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know, thats nice and all, but with a few blacklists, you are able to reduce your email traffic by a metric ton.
When I worked at a place that had a T1, you could measure the email traffic in double digit percentages.. After adding blacklists, it dropped to around 1\% of total traffic, since many of the blacklists stopped the email before sending the body of the message.
Now they use a Barracuda, which has a managed blacklist, but still, huge cut in traffic, and they had a 300Mhz p2 desktop running as their mailserver for a while, and it ran postfix just dandy for the 75 full time employees.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080876</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081836</id>
	<title>Does Krebs mentions slums?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258032600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>@turtleshadow: Is 'slum' the best analogy you can come up with? As though slums everywhere are singularly about criminality? Do you live in Palm Beach or something? Monaco? What a thoughtless way to caricature people all round the world, and miss the point you want to make about criminality on the internet. See, in real life, slums are where people live when they've trying to make ends meet but just don't have the resources or infrastructure they need. You won't find spam kings working from Kibeira.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>@ turtleshadow : Is 'slum ' the best analogy you can come up with ?
As though slums everywhere are singularly about criminality ?
Do you live in Palm Beach or something ?
Monaco ? What a thoughtless way to caricature people all round the world , and miss the point you want to make about criminality on the internet .
See , in real life , slums are where people live when they 've trying to make ends meet but just do n't have the resources or infrastructure they need .
You wo n't find spam kings working from Kibeira .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>@turtleshadow: Is 'slum' the best analogy you can come up with?
As though slums everywhere are singularly about criminality?
Do you live in Palm Beach or something?
Monaco? What a thoughtless way to caricature people all round the world, and miss the point you want to make about criminality on the internet.
See, in real life, slums are where people live when they've trying to make ends meet but just don't have the resources or infrastructure they need.
You won't find spam kings working from Kibeira.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30111504</id>
	<title>Change the name</title>
	<author>mahadiga</author>
	<datestamp>1258301100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/17/1824232" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">Change the name</a> [slashdot.org].Period.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Change the name [ slashdot.org ] .Period .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Change the name [slashdot.org].Period.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081388</id>
	<title>Re:Easy solution:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258030020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Stop relying on blacklists as your primarily (or only!) filtering mechanism. There are far more sophisticated filtering solutions out there these days. Filtering based solely on blacklists is antiquated, ineffective, and vulnerable to massive issues with false positives.</i></p><p>Avoiding a primary reliance on blacklists is generally good advice, but let's not overstate things.</p><p>In a SOHO environment, for example, it could be considered perfectly acceptable, and offers a surprisingly effective and simple setup with none of the problems you cite.</p><p>On the other hand, if you work for a large corporation that has business dealings in China, the inappopriate use of a blacklist will, among other things, cost you your job.  The same could be said of grey listing.  Oddly enough, people are as insistent that grey-listing works as you are that blacklists don't.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Stop relying on blacklists as your primarily ( or only !
) filtering mechanism .
There are far more sophisticated filtering solutions out there these days .
Filtering based solely on blacklists is antiquated , ineffective , and vulnerable to massive issues with false positives.Avoiding a primary reliance on blacklists is generally good advice , but let 's not overstate things.In a SOHO environment , for example , it could be considered perfectly acceptable , and offers a surprisingly effective and simple setup with none of the problems you cite.On the other hand , if you work for a large corporation that has business dealings in China , the inappopriate use of a blacklist will , among other things , cost you your job .
The same could be said of grey listing .
Oddly enough , people are as insistent that grey-listing works as you are that blacklists do n't .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stop relying on blacklists as your primarily (or only!
) filtering mechanism.
There are far more sophisticated filtering solutions out there these days.
Filtering based solely on blacklists is antiquated, ineffective, and vulnerable to massive issues with false positives.Avoiding a primary reliance on blacklists is generally good advice, but let's not overstate things.In a SOHO environment, for example, it could be considered perfectly acceptable, and offers a surprisingly effective and simple setup with none of the problems you cite.On the other hand, if you work for a large corporation that has business dealings in China, the inappopriate use of a blacklist will, among other things, cost you your job.
The same could be said of grey listing.
Oddly enough, people are as insistent that grey-listing works as you are that blacklists don't.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080876</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081180</id>
	<title>4chan</title>
	<author>meow27</author>
	<datestamp>1258028940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>isnt THAT the slum of the internet?</htmltext>
<tokenext>isnt THAT the slum of the internet ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>isnt THAT the slum of the internet?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081532</id>
	<title>Slums?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258030800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes, spammers and the IPs they use, and areas that the poorest of the poor live in is a really good analogy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , spammers and the IPs they use , and areas that the poorest of the poor live in is a really good analogy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, spammers and the IPs they use, and areas that the poorest of the poor live in is a really good analogy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081302</id>
	<title>"illegal activity" is another person's "freedom"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258029600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Indeed, the economic benefits abound when a huge swath of illegal and annoying activity ceases</p></div><p>Translated from corporatocracy-ese to english:</p><p>"once we've quashed the disruptive technological utopia people created on the web, the economic opportunity to carve it up and sell it back to only those who can pay abounds!"</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Indeed , the economic benefits abound when a huge swath of illegal and annoying activity ceasesTranslated from corporatocracy-ese to english : " once we 've quashed the disruptive technological utopia people created on the web , the economic opportunity to carve it up and sell it back to only those who can pay abounds !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Indeed, the economic benefits abound when a huge swath of illegal and annoying activity ceasesTranslated from corporatocracy-ese to english:"once we've quashed the disruptive technological utopia people created on the web, the economic opportunity to carve it up and sell it back to only those who can pay abounds!
"
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30082674</id>
	<title>Re:1 year</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258039740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Law #1? No niggers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Law # 1 ?
No niggers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Law #1?
No niggers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081198</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30092872</id>
	<title>Re:Where are the cops?</title>
	<author>Mashiki</author>
	<datestamp>1258113000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The reality is in most cases, police services or forces(whichever you prefer or whatever they're called where you live), don't always have the resources.  Then you get into jurisdiction.  It's a messy convoluted processes when dealing with internet crime.  Things are shifting but that's just how it is, the police are about 5-8 years behind because they don't have the funds and resources to deal with it.  So it's a non issue.</p><p>Even specialized groups that deal with this stuff are really short on proper resources.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The reality is in most cases , police services or forces ( whichever you prefer or whatever they 're called where you live ) , do n't always have the resources .
Then you get into jurisdiction .
It 's a messy convoluted processes when dealing with internet crime .
Things are shifting but that 's just how it is , the police are about 5-8 years behind because they do n't have the funds and resources to deal with it .
So it 's a non issue.Even specialized groups that deal with this stuff are really short on proper resources .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The reality is in most cases, police services or forces(whichever you prefer or whatever they're called where you live), don't always have the resources.
Then you get into jurisdiction.
It's a messy convoluted processes when dealing with internet crime.
Things are shifting but that's just how it is, the police are about 5-8 years behind because they don't have the funds and resources to deal with it.
So it's a non issue.Even specialized groups that deal with this stuff are really short on proper resources.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081090</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081922</id>
	<title>"Slums"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258033320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I wouldn't call it the slums of the internet. While it may be true that with the poor we have a lot of criminal activity it can be said that with the rich we have the most destructive type of criminal activity. And for the internet the blacklisted IPs represent the places with criminal activity, nothing more and nothing less.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would n't call it the slums of the internet .
While it may be true that with the poor we have a lot of criminal activity it can be said that with the rich we have the most destructive type of criminal activity .
And for the internet the blacklisted IPs represent the places with criminal activity , nothing more and nothing less .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wouldn't call it the slums of the internet.
While it may be true that with the poor we have a lot of criminal activity it can be said that with the rich we have the most destructive type of criminal activity.
And for the internet the blacklisted IPs represent the places with criminal activity, nothing more and nothing less.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081086</id>
	<title>the first rule</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258028460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>want to improve your neighborhood? get rid of the niggers, fags and spics.</htmltext>
<tokenext>want to improve your neighborhood ?
get rid of the niggers , fags and spics .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>want to improve your neighborhood?
get rid of the niggers, fags and spics.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081432</id>
	<title>Re:You Don't. That's the point.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258030260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This sounds reasonable.  How do I go about making sure my ISP/hosting provider is not harboring spammers/botnets?  Is there a reputable site somewhere where this kinda info is tracked?</htmltext>
<tokenext>This sounds reasonable .
How do I go about making sure my ISP/hosting provider is not harboring spammers/botnets ?
Is there a reputable site somewhere where this kinda info is tracked ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This sounds reasonable.
How do I go about making sure my ISP/hosting provider is not harboring spammers/botnets?
Is there a reputable site somewhere where this kinda info is tracked?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080984</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30084304</id>
	<title>Re:4chan</title>
	<author>seandiggity</author>
	<datestamp>1258144260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I read the title in my RSS feed and assumed it would be about 4chan<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I read the title in my RSS feed and assumed it would be about 4chan : P</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I read the title in my RSS feed and assumed it would be about 4chan :P</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081180</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080902</id>
	<title>How does one renovate and recoup the lost trust t</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258027560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>You don't. The Internet never forgets, never forgives.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't .
The Internet never forgets , never forgives .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't.
The Internet never forgets, never forgives.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081698</id>
	<title>Re:Easy solution:</title>
	<author>EdIII</author>
	<datestamp>1258031820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You didn't provide him a solution at all.  Not really.  Don't get me wrong, you are entirely correct in your advice.</p><p>However, how are you supposed to get that advice to , or even communicate reliably, with stubborn and/or stupid mail server admins?  The problem most often is on the *other* side.</p><p>The mail server admins at Craigslist.org deserve to be shot (they really do, at least with rubber bullets).  I have run into problems getting email to a mail server in which I am apparently blocked by five-ten-sg.com.  Of course, you cannot communicate with five-ten-sg.com *at all*.  I did perform an audit of our system to see if we were indeed compromised before accusing them and everything was fine.  You just can't communicate with the other side when there is a legitimate problem.</p><p>Ostensibly, mail server admins should be checking the postmaster and abuse accounts *every single day*.  I bet most have not checked in 6 months.  How else do mail server admins work things out amongst themselves?</p><p>I think the solution is a polite, but strongly worded email to the customer of the offending mail server (sent from someplace else like gmail) informing them of the problem and the fact their mail server is being run by a monkey.  In more polite and diplomatic language of course, but informing them that the reason they can't get email from the other person is that the hosting company does not have their mail server's being run correctly.</p><p>Throw the ball back into their court.  If you write the letter nicely enough with some informative links to what you basically outlined in your post you might even turn a mail server admin from the stupid-side of the force.</p><p>I have to hope that problems receiving email due to such behavior are not isolated and that eventually the mail servers being run unwisely will just lose their customers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You did n't provide him a solution at all .
Not really .
Do n't get me wrong , you are entirely correct in your advice.However , how are you supposed to get that advice to , or even communicate reliably , with stubborn and/or stupid mail server admins ?
The problem most often is on the * other * side.The mail server admins at Craigslist.org deserve to be shot ( they really do , at least with rubber bullets ) .
I have run into problems getting email to a mail server in which I am apparently blocked by five-ten-sg.com .
Of course , you can not communicate with five-ten-sg.com * at all * .
I did perform an audit of our system to see if we were indeed compromised before accusing them and everything was fine .
You just ca n't communicate with the other side when there is a legitimate problem.Ostensibly , mail server admins should be checking the postmaster and abuse accounts * every single day * .
I bet most have not checked in 6 months .
How else do mail server admins work things out amongst themselves ? I think the solution is a polite , but strongly worded email to the customer of the offending mail server ( sent from someplace else like gmail ) informing them of the problem and the fact their mail server is being run by a monkey .
In more polite and diplomatic language of course , but informing them that the reason they ca n't get email from the other person is that the hosting company does not have their mail server 's being run correctly.Throw the ball back into their court .
If you write the letter nicely enough with some informative links to what you basically outlined in your post you might even turn a mail server admin from the stupid-side of the force.I have to hope that problems receiving email due to such behavior are not isolated and that eventually the mail servers being run unwisely will just lose their customers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You didn't provide him a solution at all.
Not really.
Don't get me wrong, you are entirely correct in your advice.However, how are you supposed to get that advice to , or even communicate reliably, with stubborn and/or stupid mail server admins?
The problem most often is on the *other* side.The mail server admins at Craigslist.org deserve to be shot (they really do, at least with rubber bullets).
I have run into problems getting email to a mail server in which I am apparently blocked by five-ten-sg.com.
Of course, you cannot communicate with five-ten-sg.com *at all*.
I did perform an audit of our system to see if we were indeed compromised before accusing them and everything was fine.
You just can't communicate with the other side when there is a legitimate problem.Ostensibly, mail server admins should be checking the postmaster and abuse accounts *every single day*.
I bet most have not checked in 6 months.
How else do mail server admins work things out amongst themselves?I think the solution is a polite, but strongly worded email to the customer of the offending mail server (sent from someplace else like gmail) informing them of the problem and the fact their mail server is being run by a monkey.
In more polite and diplomatic language of course, but informing them that the reason they can't get email from the other person is that the hosting company does not have their mail server's being run correctly.Throw the ball back into their court.
If you write the letter nicely enough with some informative links to what you basically outlined in your post you might even turn a mail server admin from the stupid-side of the force.I have to hope that problems receiving email due to such behavior are not isolated and that eventually the mail servers being run unwisely will just lose their customers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080876</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080984</id>
	<title>You Don't.  That's the point.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258027920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>How, in a few years, will I tell if some Hosting/Colo sold me Whitechapel Road/Ventura Avenue for Mayfair/Boardwalk prices, and no one is going to accept my mail from a former slum?</p></div> </blockquote><p>
As the purchaser, you probably can't.  But what you <em>can</em> do is demand that your provider move you to a better IP neighborhood, or renegotiate (read: "tear up") the contract.
</p><p>
Blocklists aren't about playing whack-a-mole with <em>spammers</em>, they're about disincentivizing <em>spam-friendly providers</em>.
</p><p>
If you're an ISP or hosting provider, and you harbor spammers and botnets, the IP ranges you hold are <em>permanently</em> devalued.  That means it's harder for you to get customers, more expensive to support your legitimate customers, and your business, when you decide to sell it, is worth less than if you'd booted the goddamn spammers off your network when you had the chance.
</p><p>
Car Analogy:  If you're doing your own oil changes, and instead of hauling the waste oil to a recycler, you dump it into your backyard, don't complain when you try and sell your house and the highest bid still leaves you $100,000 underwater on your mortgage, or requires you to spend $150,000 remediating it.  Your property is worth less than it could have been, had you only been a better steward of it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How , in a few years , will I tell if some Hosting/Colo sold me Whitechapel Road/Ventura Avenue for Mayfair/Boardwalk prices , and no one is going to accept my mail from a former slum ?
As the purchaser , you probably ca n't .
But what you can do is demand that your provider move you to a better IP neighborhood , or renegotiate ( read : " tear up " ) the contract .
Blocklists are n't about playing whack-a-mole with spammers , they 're about disincentivizing spam-friendly providers .
If you 're an ISP or hosting provider , and you harbor spammers and botnets , the IP ranges you hold are permanently devalued .
That means it 's harder for you to get customers , more expensive to support your legitimate customers , and your business , when you decide to sell it , is worth less than if you 'd booted the goddamn spammers off your network when you had the chance .
Car Analogy : If you 're doing your own oil changes , and instead of hauling the waste oil to a recycler , you dump it into your backyard , do n't complain when you try and sell your house and the highest bid still leaves you $ 100,000 underwater on your mortgage , or requires you to spend $ 150,000 remediating it .
Your property is worth less than it could have been , had you only been a better steward of it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How, in a few years, will I tell if some Hosting/Colo sold me Whitechapel Road/Ventura Avenue for Mayfair/Boardwalk prices, and no one is going to accept my mail from a former slum?
As the purchaser, you probably can't.
But what you can do is demand that your provider move you to a better IP neighborhood, or renegotiate (read: "tear up") the contract.
Blocklists aren't about playing whack-a-mole with spammers, they're about disincentivizing spam-friendly providers.
If you're an ISP or hosting provider, and you harbor spammers and botnets, the IP ranges you hold are permanently devalued.
That means it's harder for you to get customers, more expensive to support your legitimate customers, and your business, when you decide to sell it, is worth less than if you'd booted the goddamn spammers off your network when you had the chance.
Car Analogy:  If you're doing your own oil changes, and instead of hauling the waste oil to a recycler, you dump it into your backyard, don't complain when you try and sell your house and the highest bid still leaves you $100,000 underwater on your mortgage, or requires you to spend $150,000 remediating it.
Your property is worth less than it could have been, had you only been a better steward of it.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081152</id>
	<title>Slums?  I'm a gangsta!  My epic will bust a cap</title>
	<author>mseidl</author>
	<datestamp>1258028760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm straight up gangsta from south central Ironforge...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm straight up gangsta from south central Ironforge.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm straight up gangsta from south central Ironforge...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080916</id>
	<title>Usually never</title>
	<author>Todd Knarr</author>
	<datestamp>1258027680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When do I clean addresses and domains out of my filters? Usually never. It's just too much trouble to keep tabs on all of them and actively look for them being cleaned up. Once they're in the filters, there they stay until something happens to make me take a look at them. Usually that something'll be someone I know getting caught by the e-mail filters and contacting me out-of-band to find out why I'm not responding to their mail. Or it might be me trying to go to a site I added to the filters ages ago and being blocked when I know it should be clean now, and I go and find it and remove it. But generally, unless something like that motivates me, I've got better things to do with my time than keeping track of all the bad guys I've run across over the years and whether they've mended their ways or not.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When do I clean addresses and domains out of my filters ?
Usually never .
It 's just too much trouble to keep tabs on all of them and actively look for them being cleaned up .
Once they 're in the filters , there they stay until something happens to make me take a look at them .
Usually that something 'll be someone I know getting caught by the e-mail filters and contacting me out-of-band to find out why I 'm not responding to their mail .
Or it might be me trying to go to a site I added to the filters ages ago and being blocked when I know it should be clean now , and I go and find it and remove it .
But generally , unless something like that motivates me , I 've got better things to do with my time than keeping track of all the bad guys I 've run across over the years and whether they 've mended their ways or not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When do I clean addresses and domains out of my filters?
Usually never.
It's just too much trouble to keep tabs on all of them and actively look for them being cleaned up.
Once they're in the filters, there they stay until something happens to make me take a look at them.
Usually that something'll be someone I know getting caught by the e-mail filters and contacting me out-of-band to find out why I'm not responding to their mail.
Or it might be me trying to go to a site I added to the filters ages ago and being blocked when I know it should be clean now, and I go and find it and remove it.
But generally, unless something like that motivates me, I've got better things to do with my time than keeping track of all the bad guys I've run across over the years and whether they've mended their ways or not.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081198</id>
	<title>1 year</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258029000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Everything should expire after a year.</p><p>I also would suggest this in government. That all laws get renewed to automatically expire after 10 years.  That way we can keep the law makers busy keeping the good laws while letting the old ones die, as well as keeping them from making crappy new ones that won't survive a 10 year renewal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Everything should expire after a year.I also would suggest this in government .
That all laws get renewed to automatically expire after 10 years .
That way we can keep the law makers busy keeping the good laws while letting the old ones die , as well as keeping them from making crappy new ones that wo n't survive a 10 year renewal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Everything should expire after a year.I also would suggest this in government.
That all laws get renewed to automatically expire after 10 years.
That way we can keep the law makers busy keeping the good laws while letting the old ones die, as well as keeping them from making crappy new ones that won't survive a 10 year renewal.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30099100</id>
	<title>Re:Easy solution:</title>
	<author>dodobh</author>
	<datestamp>1258224900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most large providers would need 10X the hardware just to handle current spam loads. I know ISPs whose spam filtering runs into 7 figures in USD.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most large providers would need 10X the hardware just to handle current spam loads .
I know ISPs whose spam filtering runs into 7 figures in USD .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most large providers would need 10X the hardware just to handle current spam loads.
I know ISPs whose spam filtering runs into 7 figures in USD.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080876</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30084434</id>
	<title>Re:Easy solution:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258103160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We block 90\% of our incoming mail via blacklisting (using mainly NXSPAM by heise.de).<br>If I would let all those mails run through spamassassin I would need five more servers at least.<br>Tell that to my boss!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We block 90 \ % of our incoming mail via blacklisting ( using mainly NXSPAM by heise.de ) .If I would let all those mails run through spamassassin I would need five more servers at least.Tell that to my boss !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We block 90\% of our incoming mail via blacklisting (using mainly NXSPAM by heise.de).If I would let all those mails run through spamassassin I would need five more servers at least.Tell that to my boss!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080876</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30082614</id>
	<title>Re:You Don't. That's the point.</title>
	<author>Bengie</author>
	<datestamp>1258038960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't worry, once IPv6 hits, IPs will be given out based on location. Don't like Russia, ban one subnet and you're good.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't worry , once IPv6 hits , IPs will be given out based on location .
Do n't like Russia , ban one subnet and you 're good .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't worry, once IPv6 hits, IPs will be given out based on location.
Don't like Russia, ban one subnet and you're good.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080984</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30085694</id>
	<title>Re:1 year</title>
	<author>VoidEngineer</author>
	<datestamp>1258121580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A better plan would be to create a legislative chamber who's sole responsibility is the repeal of laws.  So, the legislative branch would be composed of three chambers:  Senate, House of Legislation, and House of Repeals.  Or something like that.  That would create a better system of checks and balances.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A better plan would be to create a legislative chamber who 's sole responsibility is the repeal of laws .
So , the legislative branch would be composed of three chambers : Senate , House of Legislation , and House of Repeals .
Or something like that .
That would create a better system of checks and balances .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A better plan would be to create a legislative chamber who's sole responsibility is the repeal of laws.
So, the legislative branch would be composed of three chambers:  Senate, House of Legislation, and House of Repeals.
Or something like that.
That would create a better system of checks and balances.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081198</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30082490</id>
	<title>be careful</title>
	<author>socsoc</author>
	<datestamp>1258037700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How about you don't accept the IP addresses of the slums and ask your provider for clean ones?</htmltext>
<tokenext>How about you do n't accept the IP addresses of the slums and ask your provider for clean ones ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about you don't accept the IP addresses of the slums and ask your provider for clean ones?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081552</id>
	<title>Re:who's on first?</title>
	<author>John Hasler</author>
	<datestamp>1258030980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; did not Godaddy get its start registering pr0n sites?</p><p>So what?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; did not Godaddy get its start registering pr0n sites ? So what ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; did not Godaddy get its start registering pr0n sites?So what?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080822</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080812</id>
	<title>FP</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258027140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First Post</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First Post</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First Post</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30083782</id>
	<title>Re:Where are the cops?</title>
	<author>screeble</author>
	<datestamp>1258051080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You know... That's a really good idea.</p><p>Signed IP swapping somehow... Reverify those IP addresses as valid.</p><p>It would only require transferring them to a host processing site.</p><p>Then, they could be removed from block lists and be reallocated.</p><p>It would be a fuck load of record updates, though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You know... That 's a really good idea.Signed IP swapping somehow... Reverify those IP addresses as valid.It would only require transferring them to a host processing site.Then , they could be removed from block lists and be reallocated.It would be a fuck load of record updates , though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know... That's a really good idea.Signed IP swapping somehow... Reverify those IP addresses as valid.It would only require transferring them to a host processing site.Then, they could be removed from block lists and be reallocated.It would be a fuck load of record updates, though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080932</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30086286</id>
	<title>But if you clean up the Net Slums...</title>
	<author>Chris Mattern</author>
	<datestamp>1258125540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...where will Helba live?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...where will Helba live ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...where will Helba live?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30083188</id>
	<title>Re:Easy solution:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258043700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Really?  By sane blacklist use, I use them as a front line.  If you're listed on Spamhaus ZEN, I don't want (and will block) your email, end of story.</p><p>The false positive rate is very low - one or two per month against thousands of spam blocked per day.  (ZEN's false positive rate is at zero and holding.  The false positives are mostly about SPF record checks.)</p><p>(And, of course, I take the approach that anyone sending from a dynamic IP shouldn't.)</p><p>The trick, though, is to remember as an admin using a blacklist, you are delgating your authority to an outside party.  You have to make a judgement as to whether that outside party is trustworthy.</p><p>Spamhaus are, IMHO, trustworthy and professional.  By comparison, there are a lot that are fly-by-night one-off crazies that have no comprehnsion of what a professional outfit actually is, mad and power-drunk.  THOSE blacklists need to be ignored.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Really ?
By sane blacklist use , I use them as a front line .
If you 're listed on Spamhaus ZEN , I do n't want ( and will block ) your email , end of story.The false positive rate is very low - one or two per month against thousands of spam blocked per day .
( ZEN 's false positive rate is at zero and holding .
The false positives are mostly about SPF record checks .
) ( And , of course , I take the approach that anyone sending from a dynamic IP should n't .
) The trick , though , is to remember as an admin using a blacklist , you are delgating your authority to an outside party .
You have to make a judgement as to whether that outside party is trustworthy.Spamhaus are , IMHO , trustworthy and professional .
By comparison , there are a lot that are fly-by-night one-off crazies that have no comprehnsion of what a professional outfit actually is , mad and power-drunk .
THOSE blacklists need to be ignored .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Really?
By sane blacklist use, I use them as a front line.
If you're listed on Spamhaus ZEN, I don't want (and will block) your email, end of story.The false positive rate is very low - one or two per month against thousands of spam blocked per day.
(ZEN's false positive rate is at zero and holding.
The false positives are mostly about SPF record checks.
)(And, of course, I take the approach that anyone sending from a dynamic IP shouldn't.
)The trick, though, is to remember as an admin using a blacklist, you are delgating your authority to an outside party.
You have to make a judgement as to whether that outside party is trustworthy.Spamhaus are, IMHO, trustworthy and professional.
By comparison, there are a lot that are fly-by-night one-off crazies that have no comprehnsion of what a professional outfit actually is, mad and power-drunk.
THOSE blacklists need to be ignored.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080876</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30083388</id>
	<title>Cleaning Dirty IP Addresses (howto)</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258045560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It takes a bit of time, but if you inherate a 'dirty' IP Address. AKA, one that was used by a spammer or porn website, you need to visit the maintainers of the blacklists.</p><p>http://www.spamhaus.org/</p><p>and</p><p>http://www.spamcop.net/</p><p>You send them an email about your situation, and the ISP that issued you the IP addresses need to Also contact them. They (spamhaus and spamcop) will then base your request of if they receive anymore spam complaints.</p><p>Then you can 'clean' the 'dirty' IP Address.</p><p>As far as Spam goes, that is how you do it. But, for other blacklists, you have to contact them.</p><p>Just send them an Email and claim your a new owner and are not affiliated with the 'Slum Lords' past or with them in any way,</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It takes a bit of time , but if you inherate a 'dirty ' IP Address .
AKA , one that was used by a spammer or porn website , you need to visit the maintainers of the blacklists.http : //www.spamhaus.org/andhttp : //www.spamcop.net/You send them an email about your situation , and the ISP that issued you the IP addresses need to Also contact them .
They ( spamhaus and spamcop ) will then base your request of if they receive anymore spam complaints.Then you can 'clean ' the 'dirty ' IP Address.As far as Spam goes , that is how you do it .
But , for other blacklists , you have to contact them.Just send them an Email and claim your a new owner and are not affiliated with the 'Slum Lords ' past or with them in any way,</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It takes a bit of time, but if you inherate a 'dirty' IP Address.
AKA, one that was used by a spammer or porn website, you need to visit the maintainers of the blacklists.http://www.spamhaus.org/andhttp://www.spamcop.net/You send them an email about your situation, and the ISP that issued you the IP addresses need to Also contact them.
They (spamhaus and spamcop) will then base your request of if they receive anymore spam complaints.Then you can 'clean' the 'dirty' IP Address.As far as Spam goes, that is how you do it.
But, for other blacklists, you have to contact them.Just send them an Email and claim your a new owner and are not affiliated with the 'Slum Lords' past or with them in any way,</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081384</id>
	<title>"incentivize"</title>
	<author>XanC</author>
	<datestamp>1258030020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The word is "incite".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The word is " incite " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The word is "incite".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080984</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081138</id>
	<title>Re:Easy solution:</title>
	<author>whoever57</author>
	<datestamp>1258028700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Stop relying on blacklists as your primarily (or only!) filtering mechanism</p></div></blockquote><p>

The people with the problem (the new owners of the IP address space) are not the people who can make the problem go away by your suggestion. Yes, it might be nice if everyone did make this change, but it is also highly unlikely. <br> <br>
I have seen even worse use of blacklists -- for example I came across one company that was rejecting email if a blacklist was matched anyhere in the "Received" lines, and their set of blacklists included lists of dynamic addresses so you could not send them an email from most residential IP addresses, even if it was relayed by a normal non-spammy source (for example an ISP's outgoing mail relay)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Stop relying on blacklists as your primarily ( or only !
) filtering mechanism The people with the problem ( the new owners of the IP address space ) are not the people who can make the problem go away by your suggestion .
Yes , it might be nice if everyone did make this change , but it is also highly unlikely .
I have seen even worse use of blacklists -- for example I came across one company that was rejecting email if a blacklist was matched anyhere in the " Received " lines , and their set of blacklists included lists of dynamic addresses so you could not send them an email from most residential IP addresses , even if it was relayed by a normal non-spammy source ( for example an ISP 's outgoing mail relay )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stop relying on blacklists as your primarily (or only!
) filtering mechanism

The people with the problem (the new owners of the IP address space) are not the people who can make the problem go away by your suggestion.
Yes, it might be nice if everyone did make this change, but it is also highly unlikely.
I have seen even worse use of blacklists -- for example I came across one company that was rejecting email if a blacklist was matched anyhere in the "Received" lines, and their set of blacklists included lists of dynamic addresses so you could not send them an email from most residential IP addresses, even if it was relayed by a normal non-spammy source (for example an ISP's outgoing mail relay)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080876</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081628</id>
	<title>Re:You Don't. That's the point.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258031340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem with this is when ARIN takes back IP space and then hands it back out to another ISP. Such is the case at my company where one of our new<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/18's apparently had some<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/24s in it that were listed on blacklists PRIOR to our having ever had this IP space. It was obviously space ARIN got back from some other company and then assigned it to us when we requested more IPs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem with this is when ARIN takes back IP space and then hands it back out to another ISP .
Such is the case at my company where one of our new /18 's apparently had some /24s in it that were listed on blacklists PRIOR to our having ever had this IP space .
It was obviously space ARIN got back from some other company and then assigned it to us when we requested more IPs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem with this is when ARIN takes back IP space and then hands it back out to another ISP.
Such is the case at my company where one of our new /18's apparently had some /24s in it that were listed on blacklists PRIOR to our having ever had this IP space.
It was obviously space ARIN got back from some other company and then assigned it to us when we requested more IPs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080984</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080792</id>
	<title>I like the Ras Al Gul approach</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258027080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Burn them to the ground.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Burn them to the ground .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Burn them to the ground.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30082372</id>
	<title>Re:You Don't. That's the point.</title>
	<author>ermon</author>
	<datestamp>1258036620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><blockquote><div><p>
If you're an ISP or hosting provider, and you harbor spammers and botnets, the IP ranges you hold are <em>permanently</em> devalued.  That means it's harder for you to get customers, more expensive to support your legitimate customers, and your business, when you decide to sell it, is worth less than if you'd booted the goddamn spammers off your network when you had the chance.
</p></div> </blockquote></div><p>
While this is good policy on it's face, it has a severe problem - the ISP itself is not permanent. What if the spam-friendly ISP goes out of business and it's IP range is reassigned to a spam-hostile provider?
</p><p>
The parent seems to conflate an IP address assignment with an ISP. IP assignment is not permanent - IP addresses and ranges can and have been reassigned from one provider to another.
</p><p>
Based on the type of permanent blacklisting argued for by the parent, the spam-hostile provider is still blocked simply because they reside in the a range previously owned by spammers.
Over time, spammers move around and contaminate an ever growing portion of the IP space. If this IP space cannot be reclaimed the number of useful IP addresses will shrink over time.
</p><p>
In some sense, IPv6 is the solution - but until that blessed day arrives, IPv4 addresses are in short supply. As a result, some method of reclaiming "bad" IP addresses once their owners reform must be made available.
</p><p>
That is precisely the question under discussion here.
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 're an ISP or hosting provider , and you harbor spammers and botnets , the IP ranges you hold are permanently devalued .
That means it 's harder for you to get customers , more expensive to support your legitimate customers , and your business , when you decide to sell it , is worth less than if you 'd booted the goddamn spammers off your network when you had the chance .
While this is good policy on it 's face , it has a severe problem - the ISP itself is not permanent .
What if the spam-friendly ISP goes out of business and it 's IP range is reassigned to a spam-hostile provider ?
The parent seems to conflate an IP address assignment with an ISP .
IP assignment is not permanent - IP addresses and ranges can and have been reassigned from one provider to another .
Based on the type of permanent blacklisting argued for by the parent , the spam-hostile provider is still blocked simply because they reside in the a range previously owned by spammers .
Over time , spammers move around and contaminate an ever growing portion of the IP space .
If this IP space can not be reclaimed the number of useful IP addresses will shrink over time .
In some sense , IPv6 is the solution - but until that blessed day arrives , IPv4 addresses are in short supply .
As a result , some method of reclaiming " bad " IP addresses once their owners reform must be made available .
That is precisely the question under discussion here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
If you're an ISP or hosting provider, and you harbor spammers and botnets, the IP ranges you hold are permanently devalued.
That means it's harder for you to get customers, more expensive to support your legitimate customers, and your business, when you decide to sell it, is worth less than if you'd booted the goddamn spammers off your network when you had the chance.
While this is good policy on it's face, it has a severe problem - the ISP itself is not permanent.
What if the spam-friendly ISP goes out of business and it's IP range is reassigned to a spam-hostile provider?
The parent seems to conflate an IP address assignment with an ISP.
IP assignment is not permanent - IP addresses and ranges can and have been reassigned from one provider to another.
Based on the type of permanent blacklisting argued for by the parent, the spam-hostile provider is still blocked simply because they reside in the a range previously owned by spammers.
Over time, spammers move around and contaminate an ever growing portion of the IP space.
If this IP space cannot be reclaimed the number of useful IP addresses will shrink over time.
In some sense, IPv6 is the solution - but until that blessed day arrives, IPv4 addresses are in short supply.
As a result, some method of reclaiming "bad" IP addresses once their owners reform must be made available.
That is precisely the question under discussion here.

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080984</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30082126</id>
	<title>Re:How does one renovate and recoup the lost trust</title>
	<author>countertrolling</author>
	<datestamp>1258034460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... never lies, and is always right</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... never lies , and is always right</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... never lies, and is always right</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30080902</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30089562</id>
	<title>How about Slashdot?</title>
	<author>Marauder2</author>
	<datestamp>1258140240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have been trying to get one of my IPs unblocked by Slashdot for several months now and have seem to have hit a black hole, emails go in never to be seen again...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have been trying to get one of my IPs unblocked by Slashdot for several months now and have seem to have hit a black hole , emails go in never to be seen again.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have been trying to get one of my IPs unblocked by Slashdot for several months now and have seem to have hit a black hole, emails go in never to be seen again...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30084644</id>
	<title>Re:1 year</title>
	<author>bloobloo</author>
	<datestamp>1258107060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Everything should expire after a year.</p><p>I also would suggest this in government. That all laws get renewed to automatically expire after 10 years.  That way we can keep the law makers busy keeping the good laws while letting the old ones die, as well as keeping them from making crappy new ones that won't survive a 10 year renewal.</p></div><p>I used to think that would be a good idea, but then I realised politicians would be involved. Think of the pressure that could be put on a weak government if the opposition felt that their new bill had to be passed before they would support renewing the law against tax evasion. The opposition wouldn't lose the support that they would if they tried it with laws against murder etc, but it would cripple the government.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Everything should expire after a year.I also would suggest this in government .
That all laws get renewed to automatically expire after 10 years .
That way we can keep the law makers busy keeping the good laws while letting the old ones die , as well as keeping them from making crappy new ones that wo n't survive a 10 year renewal.I used to think that would be a good idea , but then I realised politicians would be involved .
Think of the pressure that could be put on a weak government if the opposition felt that their new bill had to be passed before they would support renewing the law against tax evasion .
The opposition would n't lose the support that they would if they tried it with laws against murder etc , but it would cripple the government .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Everything should expire after a year.I also would suggest this in government.
That all laws get renewed to automatically expire after 10 years.
That way we can keep the law makers busy keeping the good laws while letting the old ones die, as well as keeping them from making crappy new ones that won't survive a 10 year renewal.I used to think that would be a good idea, but then I realised politicians would be involved.
Think of the pressure that could be put on a weak government if the opposition felt that their new bill had to be passed before they would support renewing the law against tax evasion.
The opposition wouldn't lose the support that they would if they tried it with laws against murder etc, but it would cripple the government.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081198</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081618</id>
	<title>Downbelow finally explained</title>
	<author>earlymon</author>
	<datestamp>1258031280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I always wondered how Downbelow really could really happen in an enlightened, spacefaring society.</p><p>See - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon\_5\_(space\_station)" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon\_5\_(space\_station)</a> [wikipedia.org]</p><p>Substitute "IP slums" for "Downbelow" and "information-based" for "spacefaring."</p><p>See - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocities#Neighborhoods" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocities#Neighborhoods</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I always wondered how Downbelow really could really happen in an enlightened , spacefaring society.See - http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon \ _5 \ _ ( space \ _station ) [ wikipedia.org ] Substitute " IP slums " for " Downbelow " and " information-based " for " spacefaring .
" See - http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocities # Neighborhoods [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I always wondered how Downbelow really could really happen in an enlightened, spacefaring society.See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon\_5\_(space\_station) [wikipedia.org]Substitute "IP slums" for "Downbelow" and "information-based" for "spacefaring.
"See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocities#Neighborhoods [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30084620</id>
	<title>Re:Slums? I'm a gangsta! My epic will bust a cap</title>
	<author>borizz</author>
	<datestamp>1258106880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Stormwind Mage Quarter represesent yo! Chilling with the homies in the basement of the Slaughtered Lamb.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Stormwind Mage Quarter represesent yo !
Chilling with the homies in the basement of the Slaughtered Lamb .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stormwind Mage Quarter represesent yo!
Chilling with the homies in the basement of the Slaughtered Lamb.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081152</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30082612</id>
	<title>Re:4chan</title>
	<author>an unsound mind</author>
	<datestamp>1258038960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh, please. Now it's preteen boys acting as crass as they possibly can, before it was a bunch of actually pretty smart people acting as dumb as they can.</p><p>"before" here referring to years and years back.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/b/ was never good; the rest of 4chan was.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh , please .
Now it 's preteen boys acting as crass as they possibly can , before it was a bunch of actually pretty smart people acting as dumb as they can .
" before " here referring to years and years back .
/b/ was never good ; the rest of 4chan was .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh, please.
Now it's preteen boys acting as crass as they possibly can, before it was a bunch of actually pretty smart people acting as dumb as they can.
"before" here referring to years and years back.
/b/ was never good; the rest of 4chan was.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081866</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30084222</id>
	<title>Re:4chan</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258143120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That site is very little more than a showcase of the very worst, morally, psychologically, and emotionally, that humanity is capable of.</p></div><p>Funny that it doesn't end in '.gov' though.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That site is very little more than a showcase of the very worst , morally , psychologically , and emotionally , that humanity is capable of.Funny that it does n't end in '.gov ' though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That site is very little more than a showcase of the very worst, morally, psychologically, and emotionally, that humanity is capable of.Funny that it doesn't end in '.gov' though.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_12_2251209.30081866</parent>
</comment>
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