<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_10_31_128236</id>
	<title>Adobe Pushing For Flash and PDF In Open Government Initiative</title>
	<author>Soulskill</author>
	<datestamp>1256995200000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>angryrice tips news that Adobe seems to be <a href="http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/10/adobe-pushes-flash-and-pdf-for-open-government-misses-irony.ars">campaigning for the inclusion of Flash and PDF</a> in the Obama administration's efforts at increasing government transparency and openness. A post from the Sunlight Labs blog is <a href="http://sunlightlabs.com/blog/2009/adobe-bad-open-government/">critical of Adobe's undertaking</a>, in part since PDF is often "non-parsable by software, unfindable by search engines, and unreliable if text is extracted." They also say government's priority should be to publish datasets and the APIs to interact with them, rather than choosing how they're displayed in fancy graphs and charts.</htmltext>
<tokenext>angryrice tips news that Adobe seems to be campaigning for the inclusion of Flash and PDF in the Obama administration 's efforts at increasing government transparency and openness .
A post from the Sunlight Labs blog is critical of Adobe 's undertaking , in part since PDF is often " non-parsable by software , unfindable by search engines , and unreliable if text is extracted .
" They also say government 's priority should be to publish datasets and the APIs to interact with them , rather than choosing how they 're displayed in fancy graphs and charts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>angryrice tips news that Adobe seems to be campaigning for the inclusion of Flash and PDF in the Obama administration's efforts at increasing government transparency and openness.
A post from the Sunlight Labs blog is critical of Adobe's undertaking, in part since PDF is often "non-parsable by software, unfindable by search engines, and unreliable if text is extracted.
" They also say government's priority should be to publish datasets and the APIs to interact with them, rather than choosing how they're displayed in fancy graphs and charts.</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29935203</id>
	<title>Re:Nobody likes flash (sorry, yes they do...)</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257010260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>PDF and Flash are commonly used and extremely powerful.   They can be and are used with great success.   Your points are valid, but they are not Adobe's fault.   Just because people make Flash intro pages or scan jpg's into a PDF is outside of the control of Adobe.</p><p>Anyone can create a PDF reader or flash player without paying Adobe a cent.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>PDF and Flash are commonly used and extremely powerful .
They can be and are used with great success .
Your points are valid , but they are not Adobe 's fault .
Just because people make Flash intro pages or scan jpg 's into a PDF is outside of the control of Adobe.Anyone can create a PDF reader or flash player without paying Adobe a cent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PDF and Flash are commonly used and extremely powerful.
They can be and are used with great success.
Your points are valid, but they are not Adobe's fault.
Just because people make Flash intro pages or scan jpg's into a PDF is outside of the control of Adobe.Anyone can create a PDF reader or flash player without paying Adobe a cent.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933993</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29935777</id>
	<title>Re:Nobody likes flash</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257015720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You so right, that's why we need Microsoft Silverlight!   Hooray!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You so right , that 's why we need Microsoft Silverlight !
Hooray !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You so right, that's why we need Microsoft Silverlight!
Hooray!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933993</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933945</id>
	<title>don't hate PDF 'cause it's beautiful</title>
	<author>vaporland</author>
	<datestamp>1256999100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>"non-parsable by software, unfindable by search engines, and unreliable if text is extracted."</p></div></blockquote><p>I don't believe this is true - I find PDF documents in search results all the time. The consistency and reliability of PDF for forms creation has no real competition. If you hate Adobe, ok, but don't hate PDF 'cause it's beautiful...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" non-parsable by software , unfindable by search engines , and unreliable if text is extracted .
" I do n't believe this is true - I find PDF documents in search results all the time .
The consistency and reliability of PDF for forms creation has no real competition .
If you hate Adobe , ok , but do n't hate PDF 'cause it 's beautiful.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"non-parsable by software, unfindable by search engines, and unreliable if text is extracted.
"I don't believe this is true - I find PDF documents in search results all the time.
The consistency and reliability of PDF for forms creation has no real competition.
If you hate Adobe, ok, but don't hate PDF 'cause it's beautiful...
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934517</id>
	<title>NO to Adobe!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257003660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I guess most of you do not realize that Adobe produces SpyWare by default in their own products?</p><p>Flash for example has iesnare built into itself.  This all allows machine profiling that everyone agrees to when you install their bullshit software!</p><p>You can't trust a company that has already done something to make you distrust them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess most of you do not realize that Adobe produces SpyWare by default in their own products ? Flash for example has iesnare built into itself .
This all allows machine profiling that everyone agrees to when you install their bullshit software ! You ca n't trust a company that has already done something to make you distrust them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess most of you do not realize that Adobe produces SpyWare by default in their own products?Flash for example has iesnare built into itself.
This all allows machine profiling that everyone agrees to when you install their bullshit software!You can't trust a company that has already done something to make you distrust them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934081</id>
	<title>Heads should roll at Adobe</title>
	<author>Obispus</author>
	<datestamp>1257000420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>From TFA<blockquote><div><p>the entire site--designed in Flash--is practically inaccessible.

After just a cursory browsing, here are some of the usability and data accessibility issues we observed. You can't select, copy, or paste any text. Your browser's font override features won't work, so you can't adjust the font or its size to be more readable. Your browser's built-in in-page search won't work, and you can't use the keyboard to scroll through the text. You can't parse or scrape the data in any way; the design is fixed-width, so it's not going to work well on different screen sizes; and browser plugins, like Greasemonkey, can't adjust anything. Basically when it comes to text at all, if you don't like the style or are visually impaired, you're screwed.</p></div></blockquote><p>Way to go to convince government and its constituents that Flash and PDF will help them put together open websites and follow "ADA Guidelines for the Web" aimed at ensuring accessibility...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>From TFAthe entire site--designed in Flash--is practically inaccessible .
After just a cursory browsing , here are some of the usability and data accessibility issues we observed .
You ca n't select , copy , or paste any text .
Your browser 's font override features wo n't work , so you ca n't adjust the font or its size to be more readable .
Your browser 's built-in in-page search wo n't work , and you ca n't use the keyboard to scroll through the text .
You ca n't parse or scrape the data in any way ; the design is fixed-width , so it 's not going to work well on different screen sizes ; and browser plugins , like Greasemonkey , ca n't adjust anything .
Basically when it comes to text at all , if you do n't like the style or are visually impaired , you 're screwed.Way to go to convince government and its constituents that Flash and PDF will help them put together open websites and follow " ADA Guidelines for the Web " aimed at ensuring accessibility.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From TFAthe entire site--designed in Flash--is practically inaccessible.
After just a cursory browsing, here are some of the usability and data accessibility issues we observed.
You can't select, copy, or paste any text.
Your browser's font override features won't work, so you can't adjust the font or its size to be more readable.
Your browser's built-in in-page search won't work, and you can't use the keyboard to scroll through the text.
You can't parse or scrape the data in any way; the design is fixed-width, so it's not going to work well on different screen sizes; and browser plugins, like Greasemonkey, can't adjust anything.
Basically when it comes to text at all, if you don't like the style or are visually impaired, you're screwed.Way to go to convince government and its constituents that Flash and PDF will help them put together open websites and follow "ADA Guidelines for the Web" aimed at ensuring accessibility...
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934553</id>
	<title>Re:PDF bad. Work on microformats please.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257004020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>It is a <b>potable</b> typeset document package.</p></div></blockquote><p>
So you can <i>drink</i> a PDF?!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is a potable typeset document package .
So you can drink a PDF ?
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is a potable typeset document package.
So you can drink a PDF?
!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934101</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934021</id>
	<title>Obama and Flash</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256999820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why am I not surprised?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why am I not surprised ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why am I not surprised?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29937763</id>
	<title>Re:PDF bad. Work on microformats please.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256991300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Only if it's been properly distilled.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Only if it 's been properly distilled .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only if it's been properly distilled.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934553</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29947626</id>
	<title>Model View Controller</title>
	<author>foniksonik</author>
	<datestamp>1257100020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just my 2 cents in regards to public records and data.</p><p>I'd like to say that the groups making decisions in this area really should consider a MVC architecture which will avoid the concerns iterated here on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. and by pundits for open data standards everywhere in regards to display aka View technologies.</p><p>With a Model View Controller methodology and pattern in place it really is not a concern what technology is being used to display data at any given time. If public data is *stored* (Model) and *accessed* (Controller) via open standards then the *display* (View) itself is inconsequential and/or malleable to the extent needed for any purpose.</p><p>Flash is great at some things, PDFs are perfect for a variety of tasks. They are, like any other format, not the only useful format available and should never be thought of as the 'archive' or 'final' format. The Model is the archive.</p><p>All the government agencies need to do is show that the Model is able to be trans-coded to several other popular storage formats without loss and that should be good enough for anyone. They also need to provide an API for accessing the data regardless of the Model and an output format that is structured and well documented (XML, JSON, SOAP even).</p><p>At this point it is the data consumer who should choose what format they would like to visually see it in... PDF, interactive Flash/Flex charts, JSON, Word, HTML, SGML, RTF... does it matter? Not to me or anyone else. I will get to choose the format I'd like it in (XML, JSON or Actionscript Objects please).</p><p>If the format doesn't exist yet, there's an API I can use to transcode the data as I see fit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just my 2 cents in regards to public records and data.I 'd like to say that the groups making decisions in this area really should consider a MVC architecture which will avoid the concerns iterated here on / .
and by pundits for open data standards everywhere in regards to display aka View technologies.With a Model View Controller methodology and pattern in place it really is not a concern what technology is being used to display data at any given time .
If public data is * stored * ( Model ) and * accessed * ( Controller ) via open standards then the * display * ( View ) itself is inconsequential and/or malleable to the extent needed for any purpose.Flash is great at some things , PDFs are perfect for a variety of tasks .
They are , like any other format , not the only useful format available and should never be thought of as the 'archive ' or 'final ' format .
The Model is the archive.All the government agencies need to do is show that the Model is able to be trans-coded to several other popular storage formats without loss and that should be good enough for anyone .
They also need to provide an API for accessing the data regardless of the Model and an output format that is structured and well documented ( XML , JSON , SOAP even ) .At this point it is the data consumer who should choose what format they would like to visually see it in... PDF , interactive Flash/Flex charts , JSON , Word , HTML , SGML , RTF... does it matter ?
Not to me or anyone else .
I will get to choose the format I 'd like it in ( XML , JSON or Actionscript Objects please ) .If the format does n't exist yet , there 's an API I can use to transcode the data as I see fit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just my 2 cents in regards to public records and data.I'd like to say that the groups making decisions in this area really should consider a MVC architecture which will avoid the concerns iterated here on /.
and by pundits for open data standards everywhere in regards to display aka View technologies.With a Model View Controller methodology and pattern in place it really is not a concern what technology is being used to display data at any given time.
If public data is *stored* (Model) and *accessed* (Controller) via open standards then the *display* (View) itself is inconsequential and/or malleable to the extent needed for any purpose.Flash is great at some things, PDFs are perfect for a variety of tasks.
They are, like any other format, not the only useful format available and should never be thought of as the 'archive' or 'final' format.
The Model is the archive.All the government agencies need to do is show that the Model is able to be trans-coded to several other popular storage formats without loss and that should be good enough for anyone.
They also need to provide an API for accessing the data regardless of the Model and an output format that is structured and well documented (XML, JSON, SOAP even).At this point it is the data consumer who should choose what format they would like to visually see it in... PDF, interactive Flash/Flex charts, JSON, Word, HTML, SGML, RTF... does it matter?
Not to me or anyone else.
I will get to choose the format I'd like it in (XML, JSON or Actionscript Objects please).If the format doesn't exist yet, there's an API I can use to transcode the data as I see fit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29935323</id>
	<title>Re:Nobody likes flash</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257011520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>PDF is also not really an open standard.  It's mostly open - but some very interesting features, like "Allow commenting in Reader" and "Allow Reader to save filled-in forms" cannot be implemented using published standards information.</p><p>I suppose it's ok if the website offers an option to return data in multiple forms (eg. here's a link to the original word file, or here's a PDF if you can't read Word), but it doesn't quite seem appropriate as \_the\_ way to present information.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>PDF is also not really an open standard .
It 's mostly open - but some very interesting features , like " Allow commenting in Reader " and " Allow Reader to save filled-in forms " can not be implemented using published standards information.I suppose it 's ok if the website offers an option to return data in multiple forms ( eg .
here 's a link to the original word file , or here 's a PDF if you ca n't read Word ) , but it does n't quite seem appropriate as \ _the \ _ way to present information .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PDF is also not really an open standard.
It's mostly open - but some very interesting features, like "Allow commenting in Reader" and "Allow Reader to save filled-in forms" cannot be implemented using published standards information.I suppose it's ok if the website offers an option to return data in multiple forms (eg.
here's a link to the original word file, or here's a PDF if you can't read Word), but it doesn't quite seem appropriate as \_the\_ way to present information.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933993</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29935903</id>
	<title>Re:PDF Yes, Flash No</title>
	<author>Lennie</author>
	<datestamp>1257016560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Not only that, but so much more is possible these days with a browser that supports proper standards.<br><br>Flash became populair by the web-development community when you had to do a lot of web-programming to get things done and the performance wasn't optimised for those kind of things.<br><br>But that is ages (in internet time) ago.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not only that , but so much more is possible these days with a browser that supports proper standards.Flash became populair by the web-development community when you had to do a lot of web-programming to get things done and the performance was n't optimised for those kind of things.But that is ages ( in internet time ) ago .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not only that, but so much more is possible these days with a browser that supports proper standards.Flash became populair by the web-development community when you had to do a lot of web-programming to get things done and the performance wasn't optimised for those kind of things.But that is ages (in internet time) ago.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934261</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933967</id>
	<title>PDF is Fine</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256999280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>PDF is fine, stop complaining.  PDF is handled really easily by most mail aps, browsers, etc these days.  APIs sound like a headache if you ask me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>PDF is fine , stop complaining .
PDF is handled really easily by most mail aps , browsers , etc these days .
APIs sound like a headache if you ask me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PDF is fine, stop complaining.
PDF is handled really easily by most mail aps, browsers, etc these days.
APIs sound like a headache if you ask me.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29937055</id>
	<title>Re:PDF bad. Work on microformats please.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256983380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Only if you distill it. I think Adobe has a program for that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Only if you distill it .
I think Adobe has a program for that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only if you distill it.
I think Adobe has a program for that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934553</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934811</id>
	<title>You really cannot argue with the dataset idea</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257006360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the data is out there in some easily consumable format then it really doesn't matter whether it's displayed in Flash, PDF or whatever.  Choose your flavor of output/display.  As the developer of a global app across the entire corporation the most popular output is Excel compatible using either CSV or XML format because people want to do their own thing.  Of course, we don't support any of what they do with it.  We produce the official results each month and if their numbers don't match ours it's their responsibility to prove otherwise.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the data is out there in some easily consumable format then it really does n't matter whether it 's displayed in Flash , PDF or whatever .
Choose your flavor of output/display .
As the developer of a global app across the entire corporation the most popular output is Excel compatible using either CSV or XML format because people want to do their own thing .
Of course , we do n't support any of what they do with it .
We produce the official results each month and if their numbers do n't match ours it 's their responsibility to prove otherwise .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the data is out there in some easily consumable format then it really doesn't matter whether it's displayed in Flash, PDF or whatever.
Choose your flavor of output/display.
As the developer of a global app across the entire corporation the most popular output is Excel compatible using either CSV or XML format because people want to do their own thing.
Of course, we don't support any of what they do with it.
We produce the official results each month and if their numbers don't match ours it's their responsibility to prove otherwise.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934043</id>
	<title>Re:don't hate PDF 'cause it's beautiful</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1257000000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>The summary does not do a good job of reflecting the original blog post's point.  The point was that the government should make data available in a machine-parseable and generic format.  PDF is a great format for storing typeset pages, but it is a terrible format for publishing data.  It's easy to generate beautiful PDFs from well-structured data but it's much harder to go the other way.  Would you rather have budget figures (for example) as a CSV file in a well-defined format or as a PDF of tables and graphs?  If the data is available in the former format, it's easy for you or a third party to produce the latter format.  If it's only available in the PDF form then it's much harder to create the CSV.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The summary does not do a good job of reflecting the original blog post 's point .
The point was that the government should make data available in a machine-parseable and generic format .
PDF is a great format for storing typeset pages , but it is a terrible format for publishing data .
It 's easy to generate beautiful PDFs from well-structured data but it 's much harder to go the other way .
Would you rather have budget figures ( for example ) as a CSV file in a well-defined format or as a PDF of tables and graphs ?
If the data is available in the former format , it 's easy for you or a third party to produce the latter format .
If it 's only available in the PDF form then it 's much harder to create the CSV .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The summary does not do a good job of reflecting the original blog post's point.
The point was that the government should make data available in a machine-parseable and generic format.
PDF is a great format for storing typeset pages, but it is a terrible format for publishing data.
It's easy to generate beautiful PDFs from well-structured data but it's much harder to go the other way.
Would you rather have budget figures (for example) as a CSV file in a well-defined format or as a PDF of tables and graphs?
If the data is available in the former format, it's easy for you or a third party to produce the latter format.
If it's only available in the PDF form then it's much harder to create the CSV.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933945</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29948222</id>
	<title>Re:PDF bad. Work on microformats please.</title>
	<author>rdnetto</author>
	<datestamp>1257195180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sure you can. Why wouldn't you be able to drink a Properly Distilled Fluid?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure you can .
Why would n't you be able to drink a Properly Distilled Fluid ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure you can.
Why wouldn't you be able to drink a Properly Distilled Fluid?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934553</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29942852</id>
	<title>Re:don't hate PDF 'cause it's beautiful</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257103380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well said.   I want both the CSV ( raw pure data ) and the PDF ( structured )</p><p>But... also... the structured format should be Open Source if the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.gov is gonna get involved.</p><p>There are many people with valid gripes about both PDF and Flash files.</p><p>Adobe writes a lot of bloatware, and that poor flash code forces the public to buy new computers every 3-4 years.   Flash 10 has a new horrible bug that prevents flash video working up on older computers.  The older computers and flash 9 don't show the bug.</p><p>https://bugs.adobe.com/jira/browse/FP-1647</p><p>
&nbsp; Hide<br>Steps to reproduce:<br>1. fresh install of OS 10.4.11 on PPC mac,  all updates installed, means Safari latest v3.2.1<br>( also reproduced on Windows XP with 500mhz processors)</p><p>2. Install flash 9, watch most youtube videos with no visual frame skip, no sound skip</p><p>you can only get flash 9 from:<br>http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/142/tn\_14266.html</p><p>3. this wall-e video for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH3iSeDBLo</p><p>same video in smaller screen res. http://www.totlol.com/watch/QHH3iSeDBLo/Walle's-Day-At-Work/0/</p><p>4. upgrade to flash 10 as of March 2nd, 2009 , reboot</p><p>5. watch both wall-e videos again</p><p>Actual Results:<br>wall-e video visual frames barely update every 3 seconds, to the point of non functioning</p><p>expected: video with flash 10 should play perfectly, just like on flash 9</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well said .
I want both the CSV ( raw pure data ) and the PDF ( structured ) But... also... the structured format should be Open Source if the .gov is gon na get involved.There are many people with valid gripes about both PDF and Flash files.Adobe writes a lot of bloatware , and that poor flash code forces the public to buy new computers every 3-4 years .
Flash 10 has a new horrible bug that prevents flash video working up on older computers .
The older computers and flash 9 do n't show the bug.https : //bugs.adobe.com/jira/browse/FP-1647   HideSteps to reproduce : 1. fresh install of OS 10.4.11 on PPC mac , all updates installed , means Safari latest v3.2.1 ( also reproduced on Windows XP with 500mhz processors ) 2 .
Install flash 9 , watch most youtube videos with no visual frame skip , no sound skipyou can only get flash 9 from : http : //kb2.adobe.com/cps/142/tn \ _14266.html3 .
this wall-e video for example http : //www.youtube.com/watch ? v = QHH3iSeDBLosame video in smaller screen res .
http : //www.totlol.com/watch/QHH3iSeDBLo/Walle 's-Day-At-Work/0/4. upgrade to flash 10 as of March 2nd , 2009 , reboot5 .
watch both wall-e videos againActual Results : wall-e video visual frames barely update every 3 seconds , to the point of non functioningexpected : video with flash 10 should play perfectly , just like on flash 9</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well said.
I want both the CSV ( raw pure data ) and the PDF ( structured )But... also... the structured format should be Open Source if the .gov is gonna get involved.There are many people with valid gripes about both PDF and Flash files.Adobe writes a lot of bloatware, and that poor flash code forces the public to buy new computers every 3-4 years.
Flash 10 has a new horrible bug that prevents flash video working up on older computers.
The older computers and flash 9 don't show the bug.https://bugs.adobe.com/jira/browse/FP-1647
  HideSteps to reproduce:1. fresh install of OS 10.4.11 on PPC mac,  all updates installed, means Safari latest v3.2.1( also reproduced on Windows XP with 500mhz processors)2.
Install flash 9, watch most youtube videos with no visual frame skip, no sound skipyou can only get flash 9 from:http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/142/tn\_14266.html3.
this wall-e video for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH3iSeDBLosame video in smaller screen res.
http://www.totlol.com/watch/QHH3iSeDBLo/Walle's-Day-At-Work/0/4. upgrade to flash 10 as of March 2nd, 2009 , reboot5.
watch both wall-e videos againActual Results:wall-e video visual frames barely update every 3 seconds, to the point of non functioningexpected: video with flash 10 should play perfectly, just like on flash 9</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934043</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29938479</id>
	<title>Re:PDF Yes, Flash No</title>
	<author>Ekuryua</author>
	<datestamp>1256999220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I find it very amusing that people keep on trying to push xml &amp; xslt when that will not work properly at all, and make things horribly more complex(anyone who has actually tried putting up an xml+xslt system, whether client or server would know) for a large majority of the users.
<br> <br>
There's nothing wrong about distributing data sets with pdf, especially considering that unlike what has been said in that article, most pdfs can be indexed and searched.(unless specifically stripped down/oddly transformed)
<br> <br>
As for flash, it obviously depends on the use.
Flash as a medium to distribute web animated and interactive content does not really have any competitors that are worth mentioning. The question in that case would be more whether there's a need to do that level of interacting or not. Doing javascript, css and html/xhtml solutions ends up being major trouble and take a massive amount of time.

I would personally say that flash with an accessible html back end(or similar) is perfectly fine: if you can make things look and act better for many people without alienating others, why not do it?


The whole debate is imho wrongly aimed at the openness of formats, rather than what actually matters: "will it work good for the overwhelming majority?" and "can it reasonably made?"</htmltext>
<tokenext>I find it very amusing that people keep on trying to push xml &amp; xslt when that will not work properly at all , and make things horribly more complex ( anyone who has actually tried putting up an xml + xslt system , whether client or server would know ) for a large majority of the users .
There 's nothing wrong about distributing data sets with pdf , especially considering that unlike what has been said in that article , most pdfs can be indexed and searched .
( unless specifically stripped down/oddly transformed ) As for flash , it obviously depends on the use .
Flash as a medium to distribute web animated and interactive content does not really have any competitors that are worth mentioning .
The question in that case would be more whether there 's a need to do that level of interacting or not .
Doing javascript , css and html/xhtml solutions ends up being major trouble and take a massive amount of time .
I would personally say that flash with an accessible html back end ( or similar ) is perfectly fine : if you can make things look and act better for many people without alienating others , why not do it ?
The whole debate is imho wrongly aimed at the openness of formats , rather than what actually matters : " will it work good for the overwhelming majority ?
" and " can it reasonably made ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I find it very amusing that people keep on trying to push xml &amp; xslt when that will not work properly at all, and make things horribly more complex(anyone who has actually tried putting up an xml+xslt system, whether client or server would know) for a large majority of the users.
There's nothing wrong about distributing data sets with pdf, especially considering that unlike what has been said in that article, most pdfs can be indexed and searched.
(unless specifically stripped down/oddly transformed)
 
As for flash, it obviously depends on the use.
Flash as a medium to distribute web animated and interactive content does not really have any competitors that are worth mentioning.
The question in that case would be more whether there's a need to do that level of interacting or not.
Doing javascript, css and html/xhtml solutions ends up being major trouble and take a massive amount of time.
I would personally say that flash with an accessible html back end(or similar) is perfectly fine: if you can make things look and act better for many people without alienating others, why not do it?
The whole debate is imho wrongly aimed at the openness of formats, rather than what actually matters: "will it work good for the overwhelming majority?
" and "can it reasonably made?
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934261</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934197</id>
	<title>dear linus,</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257001380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>thanks again for addressing the wireless issue, that helps us lamos a lot. now, could you place some attention towards the netflix issue as well as the unacceptable dvd playing/copying problems? you can tell the nazis that it's delaying our assimilation, not being able to watch/copy some of the highest grade propaganda that's ever been published. many kudos again.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>thanks again for addressing the wireless issue , that helps us lamos a lot .
now , could you place some attention towards the netflix issue as well as the unacceptable dvd playing/copying problems ?
you can tell the nazis that it 's delaying our assimilation , not being able to watch/copy some of the highest grade propaganda that 's ever been published .
many kudos again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>thanks again for addressing the wireless issue, that helps us lamos a lot.
now, could you place some attention towards the netflix issue as well as the unacceptable dvd playing/copying problems?
you can tell the nazis that it's delaying our assimilation, not being able to watch/copy some of the highest grade propaganda that's ever been published.
many kudos again.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934463</id>
	<title>Adobe SW = Wasted CPU</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257003240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Has anyone else noticed that Adobe software is crap, inefficient crap?</p><p>Further, the recent PDF specifications add DRM which shouldn't be allowed in government publications.  If the govt agrees to use a PDF version that open source software can completely read, parse, and convert, then it is fine PROVIDED the raw data is available in open formats too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Has anyone else noticed that Adobe software is crap , inefficient crap ? Further , the recent PDF specifications add DRM which should n't be allowed in government publications .
If the govt agrees to use a PDF version that open source software can completely read , parse , and convert , then it is fine PROVIDED the raw data is available in open formats too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Has anyone else noticed that Adobe software is crap, inefficient crap?Further, the recent PDF specifications add DRM which shouldn't be allowed in government publications.
If the govt agrees to use a PDF version that open source software can completely read, parse, and convert, then it is fine PROVIDED the raw data is available in open formats too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934417</id>
	<title>data formats independent of campaign donors</title>
	<author>SgtChaireBourne</author>
	<datestamp>1257003000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The summary does not do a good job of reflecting the original blog post's point. The point was that the government should make data available in a machine-parseable and generic format. PDF is a great format for storing typeset pages, but it is a terrible format for publishing data. It's easy to generate beautiful PDFs from well-structured data but it's much harder to go the other way. Would you rather have budget figures (for example) as a CSV file in a well-defined format or as a PDF of tables and graphs? If the data is available in the former format, it's easy for you or a third party to produce the latter format. If it's only available in the PDF form then it's much harder to create the CSV.</p></div><p>
If the goal is to make the data available, then even CSV would be a better option than PDF.  PDF, while pretty, is a terminal format and is the digital equivalent of a mayfly.  It's paper that hasn't happened yet and when it does it will exist for a few short hours before finding its way to the circular file.
</p><p>
Much of the government data consists of tables and tables of data.  gzipped csv would be readable by anyone, so would ODF.  Adobe appears to be looking for a handout at the expense of creating a useful and open data system.
</p><p>
Put it in context: open government requires data formats that are independent of campaign donors.
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The summary does not do a good job of reflecting the original blog post 's point .
The point was that the government should make data available in a machine-parseable and generic format .
PDF is a great format for storing typeset pages , but it is a terrible format for publishing data .
It 's easy to generate beautiful PDFs from well-structured data but it 's much harder to go the other way .
Would you rather have budget figures ( for example ) as a CSV file in a well-defined format or as a PDF of tables and graphs ?
If the data is available in the former format , it 's easy for you or a third party to produce the latter format .
If it 's only available in the PDF form then it 's much harder to create the CSV .
If the goal is to make the data available , then even CSV would be a better option than PDF .
PDF , while pretty , is a terminal format and is the digital equivalent of a mayfly .
It 's paper that has n't happened yet and when it does it will exist for a few short hours before finding its way to the circular file .
Much of the government data consists of tables and tables of data .
gzipped csv would be readable by anyone , so would ODF .
Adobe appears to be looking for a handout at the expense of creating a useful and open data system .
Put it in context : open government requires data formats that are independent of campaign donors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The summary does not do a good job of reflecting the original blog post's point.
The point was that the government should make data available in a machine-parseable and generic format.
PDF is a great format for storing typeset pages, but it is a terrible format for publishing data.
It's easy to generate beautiful PDFs from well-structured data but it's much harder to go the other way.
Would you rather have budget figures (for example) as a CSV file in a well-defined format or as a PDF of tables and graphs?
If the data is available in the former format, it's easy for you or a third party to produce the latter format.
If it's only available in the PDF form then it's much harder to create the CSV.
If the goal is to make the data available, then even CSV would be a better option than PDF.
PDF, while pretty, is a terminal format and is the digital equivalent of a mayfly.
It's paper that hasn't happened yet and when it does it will exist for a few short hours before finding its way to the circular file.
Much of the government data consists of tables and tables of data.
gzipped csv would be readable by anyone, so would ODF.
Adobe appears to be looking for a handout at the expense of creating a useful and open data system.
Put it in context: open government requires data formats that are independent of campaign donors.

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934043</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934173</id>
	<title>Tell Adobe to open-license PDF</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257001200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>PDF has become a defacto standard like GIFs, so I think it's an okay idea to embrace their usage, but only if PDF is open-licensed to all.  Otherwise tell Adobe "no"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>PDF has become a defacto standard like GIFs , so I think it 's an okay idea to embrace their usage , but only if PDF is open-licensed to all .
Otherwise tell Adobe " no "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PDF has become a defacto standard like GIFs, so I think it's an okay idea to embrace their usage, but only if PDF is open-licensed to all.
Otherwise tell Adobe "no"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934051</id>
	<title>Re:The future is ODF and html5</title>
	<author>Cochonou</author>
	<datestamp>1257000120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Right...<br>
<br>
In order to read a document, what I really need to replace the heavyweight Adobe Reader, is a bloated modern browser !<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D</htmltext>
<tokenext>Right.. . In order to read a document , what I really need to replace the heavyweight Adobe Reader , is a bloated modern browser !
: D</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Right...

In order to read a document, what I really need to replace the heavyweight Adobe Reader, is a bloated modern browser !
:D</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934007</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29935259</id>
	<title>Re:PDF bad. Work on microformats please.</title>
	<author>maxume</author>
	<datestamp>1257010920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I usually look at the first 3 results of the first page of Google results. But that is related to the types of searches I usually run. I sort of expect that I am 'like most people' in that regard.</p><p>Well structured data is nice, but it isn't a panacea (for example, it can still be false).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I usually look at the first 3 results of the first page of Google results .
But that is related to the types of searches I usually run .
I sort of expect that I am 'like most people ' in that regard.Well structured data is nice , but it is n't a panacea ( for example , it can still be false ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I usually look at the first 3 results of the first page of Google results.
But that is related to the types of searches I usually run.
I sort of expect that I am 'like most people' in that regard.Well structured data is nice, but it isn't a panacea (for example, it can still be false).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934101</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29936131</id>
	<title>Re:Nobody likes flash</title>
	<author>Ghubi</author>
	<datestamp>1257018540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Nobody likes Flash</p></div><p>Most people DO like flash.  Most people use Internet Explorer.  Most people have never even heard of open standards, much less give a damn about them.  For most people, Flash, Windows Media, and Real are the 3 types of video that exist.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Nobody likes FlashMost people DO like flash .
Most people use Internet Explorer .
Most people have never even heard of open standards , much less give a damn about them .
For most people , Flash , Windows Media , and Real are the 3 types of video that exist .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nobody likes FlashMost people DO like flash.
Most people use Internet Explorer.
Most people have never even heard of open standards, much less give a damn about them.
For most people, Flash, Windows Media, and Real are the 3 types of video that exist.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933993</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934635</id>
	<title>Re:don't hate PDF 'cause it's beautiful</title>
	<author>Joce640k</author>
	<datestamp>1257004680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Can I hate all the multimedia/hyperlink/scripting/vulnerabilities they've added to PDF?</p><p>I'll back this so long as it's PDF light - text and graphics only (OK, maybe I'll allow hyperlinks...).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Can I hate all the multimedia/hyperlink/scripting/vulnerabilities they 've added to PDF ? I 'll back this so long as it 's PDF light - text and graphics only ( OK , maybe I 'll allow hyperlinks... ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can I hate all the multimedia/hyperlink/scripting/vulnerabilities they've added to PDF?I'll back this so long as it's PDF light - text and graphics only (OK, maybe I'll allow hyperlinks...).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933945</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29935461</id>
	<title>Re:Nobody likes flash</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257012660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>PDF is piss poor at putting data up in a format usable by other computers for data retrieval and number crunching. It can't assign meaning to data, unlike something truly open such as, say, XML. It's an awful idea. Flash is even worse for openness so don't even get me started there.</p><p>Personally I think Adobe should be should be given a boot to the head for trying to get their grubby paws on the initiative. They know just as well as I do how poorly suited their tools are to the real spirit of government openness. How they sleep at night while spewing such blatant tripe is beyond me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>PDF is piss poor at putting data up in a format usable by other computers for data retrieval and number crunching .
It ca n't assign meaning to data , unlike something truly open such as , say , XML .
It 's an awful idea .
Flash is even worse for openness so do n't even get me started there.Personally I think Adobe should be should be given a boot to the head for trying to get their grubby paws on the initiative .
They know just as well as I do how poorly suited their tools are to the real spirit of government openness .
How they sleep at night while spewing such blatant tripe is beyond me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PDF is piss poor at putting data up in a format usable by other computers for data retrieval and number crunching.
It can't assign meaning to data, unlike something truly open such as, say, XML.
It's an awful idea.
Flash is even worse for openness so don't even get me started there.Personally I think Adobe should be should be given a boot to the head for trying to get their grubby paws on the initiative.
They know just as well as I do how poorly suited their tools are to the real spirit of government openness.
How they sleep at night while spewing such blatant tripe is beyond me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933993</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29937675</id>
	<title>Re:PDF Yes, Flash No</title>
	<author>BenoitRen</author>
	<datestamp>1256990220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Most of what you say is implementation-related rather than format-related.</p></div> </blockquote><p>This is irrelevant, as Flash is a proprietary standard with only one implementation. Hence the two are pretty much equal.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most of what you say is implementation-related rather than format-related .
This is irrelevant , as Flash is a proprietary standard with only one implementation .
Hence the two are pretty much equal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most of what you say is implementation-related rather than format-related.
This is irrelevant, as Flash is a proprietary standard with only one implementation.
Hence the two are pretty much equal.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934611</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29935151</id>
	<title>Re:don't hate PDF 'cause it's beautiful</title>
	<author>John Whitley</author>
	<datestamp>1257009840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It's easy to generate beautiful PDFs from well-structured data but it's much harder to go the other way.  Would you rather have budget figures (for example) as a CSV file in a well-defined format or as a PDF of tables and graphs?</p></div><p>More importantly, it's then easy to import that data for visualization and analysis purposes.  Data presented as a PDF file is effectively so inaccessible that it will rarely be extracted for further analysis, meaning that some gov't functionary becomes responsible for the presentation and analysis instead of members of the public.  Then a panoply of tools become available for finding out things from that data that no one ever knew were there.  Something like <a href="http://www.tableausoftware.com/products/desktop" title="tableausoftware.com">Tableau Desktop</a> [tableausoftware.com] can slurp in CSV data (or data imported to a slew of OSS or commercial DBs) and allow very rapid exploration.</p><p>As an aside, I will point out that CSV is an \_evil\_ format.  Did you know it can be generated in localized forms (without any distinguishing metadata), that mean comma is supplanted for use as a thousands separator?  Oops.  Really, what idiot thought it was a good idea to have a localized <em>data format</em>...  Much better to use a serialization format like <a href="http://hadoop.apache.org/avro/docs/current/" title="apache.org">Avro</a> [apache.org] which uses a compact serialization for tabular data (akin to Protocol Buffers or Thrift) and the schema data (i.e. the description of the table's structure: columns, types, etc.) as a sidecar file in JSON.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's easy to generate beautiful PDFs from well-structured data but it 's much harder to go the other way .
Would you rather have budget figures ( for example ) as a CSV file in a well-defined format or as a PDF of tables and graphs ? More importantly , it 's then easy to import that data for visualization and analysis purposes .
Data presented as a PDF file is effectively so inaccessible that it will rarely be extracted for further analysis , meaning that some gov't functionary becomes responsible for the presentation and analysis instead of members of the public .
Then a panoply of tools become available for finding out things from that data that no one ever knew were there .
Something like Tableau Desktop [ tableausoftware.com ] can slurp in CSV data ( or data imported to a slew of OSS or commercial DBs ) and allow very rapid exploration.As an aside , I will point out that CSV is an \ _evil \ _ format .
Did you know it can be generated in localized forms ( without any distinguishing metadata ) , that mean comma is supplanted for use as a thousands separator ?
Oops. Really , what idiot thought it was a good idea to have a localized data format... Much better to use a serialization format like Avro [ apache.org ] which uses a compact serialization for tabular data ( akin to Protocol Buffers or Thrift ) and the schema data ( i.e .
the description of the table 's structure : columns , types , etc .
) as a sidecar file in JSON .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's easy to generate beautiful PDFs from well-structured data but it's much harder to go the other way.
Would you rather have budget figures (for example) as a CSV file in a well-defined format or as a PDF of tables and graphs?More importantly, it's then easy to import that data for visualization and analysis purposes.
Data presented as a PDF file is effectively so inaccessible that it will rarely be extracted for further analysis, meaning that some gov't functionary becomes responsible for the presentation and analysis instead of members of the public.
Then a panoply of tools become available for finding out things from that data that no one ever knew were there.
Something like Tableau Desktop [tableausoftware.com] can slurp in CSV data (or data imported to a slew of OSS or commercial DBs) and allow very rapid exploration.As an aside, I will point out that CSV is an \_evil\_ format.
Did you know it can be generated in localized forms (without any distinguishing metadata), that mean comma is supplanted for use as a thousands separator?
Oops.  Really, what idiot thought it was a good idea to have a localized data format...  Much better to use a serialization format like Avro [apache.org] which uses a compact serialization for tabular data (akin to Protocol Buffers or Thrift) and the schema data (i.e.
the description of the table's structure: columns, types, etc.
) as a sidecar file in JSON.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934043</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29935069</id>
	<title>Re:PDF Yes, Flash No</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257008940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd like to second the notion that presentation formatting is not irrelevant for documents that are legally binding, but point out that presentation formatting is not necessarily contrary to documents published or archived by means of a text/markup file format. A few weeks ago there was a fair amount of coverage of the GPO conversion to XML of ten years worth of their SGML content (which would certainly be less of a bear than parsing out content from hundreds of thousands of pages of text/tables/etc from PDFs), and the CIO at the GPO indicated that to some extent their documents require (I would assume) further, non-machine-added markup for their typesetting platform, because human-readable pages are the primary goal. I would also assume that to some extent these formatting directives are platform-dependent rather than based on some public standard, but they could be using FO or something.
<br> <br>
From <a href="http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/10/questions-and-answers-about-th.html" title="oreilly.com" rel="nofollow">http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/10/questions-and-answers-about-th.html</a> [oreilly.com]:
<br> <br>
The Federal Register composition is structured in a way to support printing the publication.  As such, there are a number of formatting functions in the composition code that, from a pure XML perspective, are not needed.  However, formatting is at times critical to properly interpret the publication.   Therefore in our transformation process, we could not eliminate all the formatting elements in the source SGML.   The result is an XML rendition that still contains some formatting elements.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd like to second the notion that presentation formatting is not irrelevant for documents that are legally binding , but point out that presentation formatting is not necessarily contrary to documents published or archived by means of a text/markup file format .
A few weeks ago there was a fair amount of coverage of the GPO conversion to XML of ten years worth of their SGML content ( which would certainly be less of a bear than parsing out content from hundreds of thousands of pages of text/tables/etc from PDFs ) , and the CIO at the GPO indicated that to some extent their documents require ( I would assume ) further , non-machine-added markup for their typesetting platform , because human-readable pages are the primary goal .
I would also assume that to some extent these formatting directives are platform-dependent rather than based on some public standard , but they could be using FO or something .
From http : //radar.oreilly.com/2009/10/questions-and-answers-about-th.html [ oreilly.com ] : The Federal Register composition is structured in a way to support printing the publication .
As such , there are a number of formatting functions in the composition code that , from a pure XML perspective , are not needed .
However , formatting is at times critical to properly interpret the publication .
Therefore in our transformation process , we could not eliminate all the formatting elements in the source SGML .
The result is an XML rendition that still contains some formatting elements .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd like to second the notion that presentation formatting is not irrelevant for documents that are legally binding, but point out that presentation formatting is not necessarily contrary to documents published or archived by means of a text/markup file format.
A few weeks ago there was a fair amount of coverage of the GPO conversion to XML of ten years worth of their SGML content (which would certainly be less of a bear than parsing out content from hundreds of thousands of pages of text/tables/etc from PDFs), and the CIO at the GPO indicated that to some extent their documents require (I would assume) further, non-machine-added markup for their typesetting platform, because human-readable pages are the primary goal.
I would also assume that to some extent these formatting directives are platform-dependent rather than based on some public standard, but they could be using FO or something.
From http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/10/questions-and-answers-about-th.html [oreilly.com]:
 
The Federal Register composition is structured in a way to support printing the publication.
As such, there are a number of formatting functions in the composition code that, from a pure XML perspective, are not needed.
However, formatting is at times critical to properly interpret the publication.
Therefore in our transformation process, we could not eliminate all the formatting elements in the source SGML.
The result is an XML rendition that still contains some formatting elements.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934261</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934149</id>
	<title>Re:don't hate PDF 'cause it's beautiful</title>
	<author>Crudely\_Indecent</author>
	<datestamp>1257001020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Many implementations of PDF converters merely print a document to images and then embed the images into a PDF.  Those are non-searchable and no text can be extracted with the existing tools.  I once created a documentation website which relied on these embedded image types of PDF documents.  I had to implement an OCR solution in order to extract the text to make my clients documentation searchable.  It was ugly and a real pain in the ass.</p><p>Certainly, PDF can be beautiful, but it is often not implemented that way.  Personally, I'm a big fan of PDF.  If not implemented properly, I try to avoid it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Many implementations of PDF converters merely print a document to images and then embed the images into a PDF .
Those are non-searchable and no text can be extracted with the existing tools .
I once created a documentation website which relied on these embedded image types of PDF documents .
I had to implement an OCR solution in order to extract the text to make my clients documentation searchable .
It was ugly and a real pain in the ass.Certainly , PDF can be beautiful , but it is often not implemented that way .
Personally , I 'm a big fan of PDF .
If not implemented properly , I try to avoid it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many implementations of PDF converters merely print a document to images and then embed the images into a PDF.
Those are non-searchable and no text can be extracted with the existing tools.
I once created a documentation website which relied on these embedded image types of PDF documents.
I had to implement an OCR solution in order to extract the text to make my clients documentation searchable.
It was ugly and a real pain in the ass.Certainly, PDF can be beautiful, but it is often not implemented that way.
Personally, I'm a big fan of PDF.
If not implemented properly, I try to avoid it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933945</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29936327</id>
	<title>Re:Nobody likes flash</title>
	<author>NotBorg</author>
	<datestamp>1257020700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>But there's not much wrong with PDF, <b>if it's done right.</b></p> </div><p>I'm sure they won't fuck this up, after all it is the US government.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>But there 's not much wrong with PDF , if it 's done right .
I 'm sure they wo n't fuck this up , after all it is the US government .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But there's not much wrong with PDF, if it's done right.
I'm sure they won't fuck this up, after all it is the US government.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933993</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29935969</id>
	<title>Adobe Flash and Adobe PDF not on FreeBSD</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257017220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So how then does their plan support open government?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So how then does their plan support open government ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So how then does their plan support open government?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934261</id>
	<title>PDF Yes, Flash No</title>
	<author>markdavis</author>
	<datestamp>1257001860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am OK with PDF.  I would RATHER see documents in plain HTML, but there are times when formatting is important.  In those cases, if it is to be read/print-only, PDF is the way to go.  Otherwise, the gov should use ODF.</p><p>But Flash?  Are you kidding?  The last thing on earth we need is more Flash.</p><p>* Does not work on all devices<br>* Slow and/or consumes tons of CPU<br>* Consumes tons of RAM<br>* Consumes more bandwidth<br>* Makes it difficult or impossible to cut and paste<br>* Impossible to "search/find"<br>* Violates the native UI look and feel<br>* Fonts and font sizes are uncontrollable by the end user<br>* Can't scroll correctly much of the time<br>* Almost completely proprietary<br>* Rarely adjusts to screen size<br>* Often introduces extremely irritating animation.<br>* Doesn't allow text to be "seen" by the browser (or OS), making other plugins (like a screen reader) 100\% useless</p><p>At least that SilverDark stuff isn't even on the radar- thank God for little favors.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am OK with PDF .
I would RATHER see documents in plain HTML , but there are times when formatting is important .
In those cases , if it is to be read/print-only , PDF is the way to go .
Otherwise , the gov should use ODF.But Flash ?
Are you kidding ?
The last thing on earth we need is more Flash .
* Does not work on all devices * Slow and/or consumes tons of CPU * Consumes tons of RAM * Consumes more bandwidth * Makes it difficult or impossible to cut and paste * Impossible to " search/find " * Violates the native UI look and feel * Fonts and font sizes are uncontrollable by the end user * Ca n't scroll correctly much of the time * Almost completely proprietary * Rarely adjusts to screen size * Often introduces extremely irritating animation .
* Does n't allow text to be " seen " by the browser ( or OS ) , making other plugins ( like a screen reader ) 100 \ % uselessAt least that SilverDark stuff is n't even on the radar- thank God for little favors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am OK with PDF.
I would RATHER see documents in plain HTML, but there are times when formatting is important.
In those cases, if it is to be read/print-only, PDF is the way to go.
Otherwise, the gov should use ODF.But Flash?
Are you kidding?
The last thing on earth we need is more Flash.
* Does not work on all devices* Slow and/or consumes tons of CPU* Consumes tons of RAM* Consumes more bandwidth* Makes it difficult or impossible to cut and paste* Impossible to "search/find"* Violates the native UI look and feel* Fonts and font sizes are uncontrollable by the end user* Can't scroll correctly much of the time* Almost completely proprietary* Rarely adjusts to screen size* Often introduces extremely irritating animation.
* Doesn't allow text to be "seen" by the browser (or OS), making other plugins (like a screen reader) 100\% uselessAt least that SilverDark stuff isn't even on the radar- thank God for little favors.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29938145</id>
	<title>HTML5 &amp; SVG.</title>
	<author>paradisaeidae</author>
	<datestamp>1256996100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Pretty surprised I'm the 1st to suggest this combo.
Most 'modern' browsers are close to svg 1.1 now.
Google has stated it's interest in svg, hosting this year's svgopen.org.
Indexability being a strong draw.
Sure, everytime you mention an xml format the json guys cough up bits.
Size is reducible by gzip, xslt is not 'pretty' but the flexibility will exercise yer greystuff.

MarkT
ps: Inkscape.org will convert pdf pages to svg nicely.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Pretty surprised I 'm the 1st to suggest this combo .
Most 'modern ' browsers are close to svg 1.1 now .
Google has stated it 's interest in svg , hosting this year 's svgopen.org .
Indexability being a strong draw .
Sure , everytime you mention an xml format the json guys cough up bits .
Size is reducible by gzip , xslt is not 'pretty ' but the flexibility will exercise yer greystuff .
MarkT ps : Inkscape.org will convert pdf pages to svg nicely .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pretty surprised I'm the 1st to suggest this combo.
Most 'modern' browsers are close to svg 1.1 now.
Google has stated it's interest in svg, hosting this year's svgopen.org.
Indexability being a strong draw.
Sure, everytime you mention an xml format the json guys cough up bits.
Size is reducible by gzip, xslt is not 'pretty' but the flexibility will exercise yer greystuff.
MarkT
ps: Inkscape.org will convert pdf pages to svg nicely.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934073</id>
	<title>One condition</title>
	<author>PotatoFiend</author>
	<datestamp>1257000300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Flash should only be considered if the government can mandate that Adobe provide and competently maintain a Flash player of comparable quality for all major desktop, mobile, and handheld OSes and platforms. The alpha-quality Flash player for 64-bit Linux sucks donkey balls while Windows gets star treatment. Open source would be another plus, but right now I'd settle for a 64-bit Linux binary that didn't crash my browsers constantly.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Flash should only be considered if the government can mandate that Adobe provide and competently maintain a Flash player of comparable quality for all major desktop , mobile , and handheld OSes and platforms .
The alpha-quality Flash player for 64-bit Linux sucks donkey balls while Windows gets star treatment .
Open source would be another plus , but right now I 'd settle for a 64-bit Linux binary that did n't crash my browsers constantly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Flash should only be considered if the government can mandate that Adobe provide and competently maintain a Flash player of comparable quality for all major desktop, mobile, and handheld OSes and platforms.
The alpha-quality Flash player for 64-bit Linux sucks donkey balls while Windows gets star treatment.
Open source would be another plus, but right now I'd settle for a 64-bit Linux binary that didn't crash my browsers constantly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934087</id>
	<title>Tremor</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257000480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>They also say government's priority should be to publish datasets and the APIs to interact with them, rather than choosing how they're displayed in fancy graphs and charts.</p></div><p>I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of IT workers suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>They also say government 's priority should be to publish datasets and the APIs to interact with them , rather than choosing how they 're displayed in fancy graphs and charts.I felt a great disturbance in the Force , as if millions of IT workers suddenly cried out in terror , and were suddenly silenced .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They also say government's priority should be to publish datasets and the APIs to interact with them, rather than choosing how they're displayed in fancy graphs and charts.I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of IT workers suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933963</id>
	<title>This is terrible.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256999220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am so sick of flash-based interfaces. Augh.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am so sick of flash-based interfaces .
Augh .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am so sick of flash-based interfaces.
Augh.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934611</id>
	<title>Re:PDF Yes, Flash No</title>
	<author>gaspyy</author>
	<datestamp>1257004500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most of what you say is implementation-related rather than format-related. It's like saying that C sucks because there are so many crappy programs. I know about feeding the trolls, but for all those who don't know better, here we go:</p><p>Nothing "just works" on <em>all devices</em> and in this area flash fares better than most other technologies; agree is slow; not really agree on RAM usage.</p><p>Flash uses less bandwidth than alternatives, it's quite very well optimized. Sure, someone can stuff some 10 min. mp3s encoded at 256kbps and and bunch of 2048x2048 bitmaps but that's another story.</p><p>Cut/Paste is more tedious because of security reasons but keyboard shortcuts work. Search works too and static text is indexed by Google.</p><p>Agree on native UI, but then so it's Java. Font size is controllable by user if the app is done properly -- granted, user can't override any settings.<br>Scrolling - never had an issue. Specs are open.  Rarely adjust to screen size - are you kidding me? it's vector, by default it will adjust to anything and can be programmed a lot better than CSS/HTML.</p><p>Irritating animation - not a fault of the format itself.<br>Works with screen readers -- seriously, have you TRIED it?</p><p>What Adobe is pushing is most likely their "Flashpaper" format, something similar to PDF but lighter.</p><p>One more comment from the summary: "unfindable by search engines" - where does this come from? Google and all have been indexing PDF files since 10 years ago.</p><p>I know Slashdot crowd loves to hate flash, but at least hate it for the right reasons: its lack of speed and real 3d hardware acceleration.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most of what you say is implementation-related rather than format-related .
It 's like saying that C sucks because there are so many crappy programs .
I know about feeding the trolls , but for all those who do n't know better , here we go : Nothing " just works " on all devices and in this area flash fares better than most other technologies ; agree is slow ; not really agree on RAM usage.Flash uses less bandwidth than alternatives , it 's quite very well optimized .
Sure , someone can stuff some 10 min .
mp3s encoded at 256kbps and and bunch of 2048x2048 bitmaps but that 's another story.Cut/Paste is more tedious because of security reasons but keyboard shortcuts work .
Search works too and static text is indexed by Google.Agree on native UI , but then so it 's Java .
Font size is controllable by user if the app is done properly -- granted , user ca n't override any settings.Scrolling - never had an issue .
Specs are open .
Rarely adjust to screen size - are you kidding me ?
it 's vector , by default it will adjust to anything and can be programmed a lot better than CSS/HTML.Irritating animation - not a fault of the format itself.Works with screen readers -- seriously , have you TRIED it ? What Adobe is pushing is most likely their " Flashpaper " format , something similar to PDF but lighter.One more comment from the summary : " unfindable by search engines " - where does this come from ?
Google and all have been indexing PDF files since 10 years ago.I know Slashdot crowd loves to hate flash , but at least hate it for the right reasons : its lack of speed and real 3d hardware acceleration .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most of what you say is implementation-related rather than format-related.
It's like saying that C sucks because there are so many crappy programs.
I know about feeding the trolls, but for all those who don't know better, here we go:Nothing "just works" on all devices and in this area flash fares better than most other technologies; agree is slow; not really agree on RAM usage.Flash uses less bandwidth than alternatives, it's quite very well optimized.
Sure, someone can stuff some 10 min.
mp3s encoded at 256kbps and and bunch of 2048x2048 bitmaps but that's another story.Cut/Paste is more tedious because of security reasons but keyboard shortcuts work.
Search works too and static text is indexed by Google.Agree on native UI, but then so it's Java.
Font size is controllable by user if the app is done properly -- granted, user can't override any settings.Scrolling - never had an issue.
Specs are open.
Rarely adjust to screen size - are you kidding me?
it's vector, by default it will adjust to anything and can be programmed a lot better than CSS/HTML.Irritating animation - not a fault of the format itself.Works with screen readers -- seriously, have you TRIED it?What Adobe is pushing is most likely their "Flashpaper" format, something similar to PDF but lighter.One more comment from the summary: "unfindable by search engines" - where does this come from?
Google and all have been indexing PDF files since 10 years ago.I know Slashdot crowd loves to hate flash, but at least hate it for the right reasons: its lack of speed and real 3d hardware acceleration.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934261</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934009</id>
	<title>Re:don't hate PDF 'cause it's beautiful</title>
	<author>Bacon Bits</author>
	<datestamp>1256999700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>PDFs are only searchable if the document contains text.  Half the time PDFs contain text-as-image, which is about as useful to a search engine as a captcha image.  Google doesn't run OCR on PDFs, AFAIK.  Although, come to think of it, that sounds like something they'd get sued by a random company for doing for "violating copyright proprietary information".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>PDFs are only searchable if the document contains text .
Half the time PDFs contain text-as-image , which is about as useful to a search engine as a captcha image .
Google does n't run OCR on PDFs , AFAIK .
Although , come to think of it , that sounds like something they 'd get sued by a random company for doing for " violating copyright proprietary information " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PDFs are only searchable if the document contains text.
Half the time PDFs contain text-as-image, which is about as useful to a search engine as a captcha image.
Google doesn't run OCR on PDFs, AFAIK.
Although, come to think of it, that sounds like something they'd get sued by a random company for doing for "violating copyright proprietary information".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933945</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934881</id>
	<title>Flash sucks</title>
	<author>minkie</author>
	<datestamp>1257007080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Flash is evil for man reasons, but the most in-your-face reason if you use a Mac is that the Mac Flash plugin crashes all the time.  It is the #1 (by far) reason for Safari crashes on the Mac.</p><p>I'm not wild about PDF, but at least I don't see PDF viewers crashing all over the place.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Flash is evil for man reasons , but the most in-your-face reason if you use a Mac is that the Mac Flash plugin crashes all the time .
It is the # 1 ( by far ) reason for Safari crashes on the Mac.I 'm not wild about PDF , but at least I do n't see PDF viewers crashing all over the place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Flash is evil for man reasons, but the most in-your-face reason if you use a Mac is that the Mac Flash plugin crashes all the time.
It is the #1 (by far) reason for Safari crashes on the Mac.I'm not wild about PDF, but at least I don't see PDF viewers crashing all over the place.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934121</id>
	<title>Re:The future is ODF and html5</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257000840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The future is typically whoever gets there first; Adobe is shipping a great product (from a producer's prospective) right now today.  SVG has been around for how long now?  And it's still just a minor player; same with ogg.  HTML5 will eventually make inroads, but the spec doesn't mandate any specific codecs.  On top of that, it requires the browser to implement basic navigation controls; producers are going to want to keep their own in-house player controls.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The future is typically whoever gets there first ; Adobe is shipping a great product ( from a producer 's prospective ) right now today .
SVG has been around for how long now ?
And it 's still just a minor player ; same with ogg .
HTML5 will eventually make inroads , but the spec does n't mandate any specific codecs .
On top of that , it requires the browser to implement basic navigation controls ; producers are going to want to keep their own in-house player controls .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The future is typically whoever gets there first; Adobe is shipping a great product (from a producer's prospective) right now today.
SVG has been around for how long now?
And it's still just a minor player; same with ogg.
HTML5 will eventually make inroads, but the spec doesn't mandate any specific codecs.
On top of that, it requires the browser to implement basic navigation controls; producers are going to want to keep their own in-house player controls.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934007</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29937737</id>
	<title>x86\_64 anyone?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256990940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Could Adobe please bless up an AMD64 build for Linux, please?  Manually having to install  http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/flashplayer10/libflashplayer-10.0.32.18.linux-x86\_64.so.tar.gz is a pain.  Cross-platform means !EVERYWHERE!  Do it or don't.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Could Adobe please bless up an AMD64 build for Linux , please ?
Manually having to install http : //download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/flashplayer10/libflashplayer-10.0.32.18.linux-x86 \ _64.so.tar.gz is a pain .
Cross-platform means ! EVERYWHERE !
Do it or do n't .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Could Adobe please bless up an AMD64 build for Linux, please?
Manually having to install  http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/flashplayer10/libflashplayer-10.0.32.18.linux-x86\_64.so.tar.gz is a pain.
Cross-platform means !EVERYWHERE!
Do it or don't.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934601</id>
	<title>the flash web browser does enable screen readers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257004440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/products/flashplayer/overview.html" title="adobe.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/products/flashplayer/overview.html</a> [adobe.com] "With integrated support for Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA), Flash Player 10 makes content available via screen access technologies such as Window-Eyes from GW Micro and JAWS from Freedom Scientific."</p><p>But it is very bad that Adobe doesn't consider accessibility support to be a "must have" feature for the desktop version of their Flash Player.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.adobe.com/accessibility/products/flashplayer/overview.html [ adobe.com ] " With integrated support for Microsoft Active Accessibility ( MSAA ) , Flash Player 10 makes content available via screen access technologies such as Window-Eyes from GW Micro and JAWS from Freedom Scientific .
" But it is very bad that Adobe does n't consider accessibility support to be a " must have " feature for the desktop version of their Flash Player .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/products/flashplayer/overview.html [adobe.com] "With integrated support for Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA), Flash Player 10 makes content available via screen access technologies such as Window-Eyes from GW Micro and JAWS from Freedom Scientific.
"But it is very bad that Adobe doesn't consider accessibility support to be a "must have" feature for the desktop version of their Flash Player.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934261</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934683</id>
	<title>Re:PDF Yes, Flash No</title>
	<author>Vladimus</author>
	<datestamp>1257005340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>HTML is a great middle ground. By following XHTML rules and combining it with CSS, you have a very parse-able document and can typeset it virtually any way you want. I've loved the PDF format since it was PostScript, since it can literally do anything involving typesetting or vectors, but trying to get data out of it sucks. It'd be great if adobe could somehow embed text data or XML into it, but I don't see that happening.</p><p>I wonder if SVG might work well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>HTML is a great middle ground .
By following XHTML rules and combining it with CSS , you have a very parse-able document and can typeset it virtually any way you want .
I 've loved the PDF format since it was PostScript , since it can literally do anything involving typesetting or vectors , but trying to get data out of it sucks .
It 'd be great if adobe could somehow embed text data or XML into it , but I do n't see that happening.I wonder if SVG might work well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>HTML is a great middle ground.
By following XHTML rules and combining it with CSS, you have a very parse-able document and can typeset it virtually any way you want.
I've loved the PDF format since it was PostScript, since it can literally do anything involving typesetting or vectors, but trying to get data out of it sucks.
It'd be great if adobe could somehow embed text data or XML into it, but I don't see that happening.I wonder if SVG might work well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934261</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934975</id>
	<title>If They Open the Formats</title>
	<author>RAMMS+EIN</author>
	<datestamp>1257007980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This could be a Good Thing, if it means that the formats will be made and remain open. IIRC, PDF is already an open standard, and supported by various programs from multiple sources. I would applaud it if the same were to happen to Flash. And if both formats are open and widely supported, the government could do a lot worse than using them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This could be a Good Thing , if it means that the formats will be made and remain open .
IIRC , PDF is already an open standard , and supported by various programs from multiple sources .
I would applaud it if the same were to happen to Flash .
And if both formats are open and widely supported , the government could do a lot worse than using them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This could be a Good Thing, if it means that the formats will be made and remain open.
IIRC, PDF is already an open standard, and supported by various programs from multiple sources.
I would applaud it if the same were to happen to Flash.
And if both formats are open and widely supported, the government could do a lot worse than using them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934587</id>
	<title>Re:PDF Yes, Flash No</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257004320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>can i suggest that the only way for us to fight back against the use of flash is to boycott the internet completely!!!!</p><p>that will teach them!!!!!!</p><p>(oh, you're still here...)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>can i suggest that the only way for us to fight back against the use of flash is to boycott the internet completely ! ! !
! that will teach them ! ! ! ! ! !
( oh , you 're still here... )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>can i suggest that the only way for us to fight back against the use of flash is to boycott the internet completely!!!
!that will teach them!!!!!!
(oh, you're still here...)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934261</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934101</id>
	<title>PDF bad. Work on microformats please.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257000660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>GP is right. Government should focus on doing what government is needed for success, such as determining standards for formats that everyone can use, with input from academia and industry. For example a human readable parsable format that one could embed in a web page for semantic metadata. Or funding open source software to make it easy (cross platform) to input such data (I am thinking of information about cited papers or books). Typeset information is nice but we already are drowning in information - how many pages of Google results do you usually look at? And we need help before generating 10 times as much.</p><p>Why PDF is bad:<br>- It is a potable typeset document package. Not a data sharing package that could be pulled apart easily with tools automatically.<br>- PDF is extremely hard to parse, and using current free software does not always give good results.<br>- You destroy useful document structure, or in the case of ASCII text parsability and small size, when you convert to PDF. You can't just convert back to the original.<br>- It takes significant processing power and commercial software to display well and reliability as far as I can see. Having just gotten the latest Mac I feel like I'm in a dauntless battleship, but I have had many trouble with different unix tools in the past.<br>- Scientists publish PDF too but then also use other formats for data. For example on arxiv, one scientists recently published animations inside a zip but it was hard to find the link<br>- It is difficult to manage bibliographic information automatically.<br>- It is proprietary<br>- It requires a huge amount of data, and arcane knowledge, just to build a parser that works most of the time (such as for Asian languages especially).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>GP is right .
Government should focus on doing what government is needed for success , such as determining standards for formats that everyone can use , with input from academia and industry .
For example a human readable parsable format that one could embed in a web page for semantic metadata .
Or funding open source software to make it easy ( cross platform ) to input such data ( I am thinking of information about cited papers or books ) .
Typeset information is nice but we already are drowning in information - how many pages of Google results do you usually look at ?
And we need help before generating 10 times as much.Why PDF is bad : - It is a potable typeset document package .
Not a data sharing package that could be pulled apart easily with tools automatically.- PDF is extremely hard to parse , and using current free software does not always give good results.- You destroy useful document structure , or in the case of ASCII text parsability and small size , when you convert to PDF .
You ca n't just convert back to the original.- It takes significant processing power and commercial software to display well and reliability as far as I can see .
Having just gotten the latest Mac I feel like I 'm in a dauntless battleship , but I have had many trouble with different unix tools in the past.- Scientists publish PDF too but then also use other formats for data .
For example on arxiv , one scientists recently published animations inside a zip but it was hard to find the link- It is difficult to manage bibliographic information automatically.- It is proprietary- It requires a huge amount of data , and arcane knowledge , just to build a parser that works most of the time ( such as for Asian languages especially ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>GP is right.
Government should focus on doing what government is needed for success, such as determining standards for formats that everyone can use, with input from academia and industry.
For example a human readable parsable format that one could embed in a web page for semantic metadata.
Or funding open source software to make it easy (cross platform) to input such data (I am thinking of information about cited papers or books).
Typeset information is nice but we already are drowning in information - how many pages of Google results do you usually look at?
And we need help before generating 10 times as much.Why PDF is bad:- It is a potable typeset document package.
Not a data sharing package that could be pulled apart easily with tools automatically.- PDF is extremely hard to parse, and using current free software does not always give good results.- You destroy useful document structure, or in the case of ASCII text parsability and small size, when you convert to PDF.
You can't just convert back to the original.- It takes significant processing power and commercial software to display well and reliability as far as I can see.
Having just gotten the latest Mac I feel like I'm in a dauntless battleship, but I have had many trouble with different unix tools in the past.- Scientists publish PDF too but then also use other formats for data.
For example on arxiv, one scientists recently published animations inside a zip but it was hard to find the link- It is difficult to manage bibliographic information automatically.- It is proprietary- It requires a huge amount of data, and arcane knowledge, just to build a parser that works most of the time (such as for Asian languages especially).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934095</id>
	<title>If not PDF, then Microsoft's XPS: XML Paper Spec.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257000540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Campaigning against PDF in any way might effectively equate to implicitly campaigning for Microsoft's XML Paper Specification (XPS)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Campaigning against PDF in any way might effectively equate to implicitly campaigning for Microsoft 's XML Paper Specification ( XPS )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Campaigning against PDF in any way might effectively equate to implicitly campaigning for Microsoft's XML Paper Specification (XPS)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29953202</id>
	<title>Re:Nobody likes flash</title>
	<author>bill\_mcgonigle</author>
	<datestamp>1257191880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>KDE's Okular does speech synthesis and has a high-contrast mode.</i></p><p>yet can't output PS that my Brother BRScript can handle (Evince does OK).</p><p>All of the open source PDF readers have come a long way in recent years - my only point is that PDF appears to be *hard* to implement.  I don't know why somebody would need to, but my imagination is limited.  Should a file format essential to government be such a hurdle to potential users?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>KDE 's Okular does speech synthesis and has a high-contrast mode.yet ca n't output PS that my Brother BRScript can handle ( Evince does OK ) .All of the open source PDF readers have come a long way in recent years - my only point is that PDF appears to be * hard * to implement .
I do n't know why somebody would need to , but my imagination is limited .
Should a file format essential to government be such a hurdle to potential users ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>KDE's Okular does speech synthesis and has a high-contrast mode.yet can't output PS that my Brother BRScript can handle (Evince does OK).All of the open source PDF readers have come a long way in recent years - my only point is that PDF appears to be *hard* to implement.
I don't know why somebody would need to, but my imagination is limited.
Should a file format essential to government be such a hurdle to potential users?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933993</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29941769</id>
	<title>Remove Flash and enjoy the surf</title>
	<author>minstrelmike</author>
	<datestamp>1257092100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When Flash had a few issues a couple months ago, I removed it from my browser. Suddenly, thousands of irritating advertisements and web banners and annoying intro pages of pointless information were blank with only a notice to install flash player.<br> <br>
Remove it from one browser and see if it doesn't make surfing better for you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When Flash had a few issues a couple months ago , I removed it from my browser .
Suddenly , thousands of irritating advertisements and web banners and annoying intro pages of pointless information were blank with only a notice to install flash player .
Remove it from one browser and see if it does n't make surfing better for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When Flash had a few issues a couple months ago, I removed it from my browser.
Suddenly, thousands of irritating advertisements and web banners and annoying intro pages of pointless information were blank with only a notice to install flash player.
Remove it from one browser and see if it doesn't make surfing better for you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29936413</id>
	<title>Re:PDF bad. Work on microformats please.</title>
	<author>NotBorg</author>
	<datestamp>1257021300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeh see matey, if yeh leave out the R no one be respecting.</p><p>Yarrrrrrr!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeh see matey , if yeh leave out the R no one be respecting.Yarrrrrrr !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeh see matey, if yeh leave out the R no one be respecting.Yarrrrrrr!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934553</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934189</id>
	<title>WTF?</title>
	<author>dnaumov</author>
	<datestamp>1257001320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>PDF is often "non-parsable by software, unfindable by search engines, and unreliable if text is extracted."</p></div></blockquote><p>
Have these people not heard of Google? Just because YOU can't write software to parse PDF files doesn't mean that nobody else can and that it doesn't already exist.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>PDF is often " non-parsable by software , unfindable by search engines , and unreliable if text is extracted .
" Have these people not heard of Google ?
Just because YOU ca n't write software to parse PDF files does n't mean that nobody else can and that it does n't already exist .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PDF is often "non-parsable by software, unfindable by search engines, and unreliable if text is extracted.
"
Have these people not heard of Google?
Just because YOU can't write software to parse PDF files doesn't mean that nobody else can and that it doesn't already exist.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934007</id>
	<title>The future is ODF and html5</title>
	<author>quantic\_oscillation7</author>
	<datestamp>1256999700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The future is ODF (a real open xml) and of course PDF, but specially html5+js+canvas+svg+ogg vorbis/theora for rich web content.</p><p>With this kind of technology that the new browsers bring to the arena, adobe is getting scared!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The future is ODF ( a real open xml ) and of course PDF , but specially html5 + js + canvas + svg + ogg vorbis/theora for rich web content.With this kind of technology that the new browsers bring to the arena , adobe is getting scared !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The future is ODF (a real open xml) and of course PDF, but specially html5+js+canvas+svg+ogg vorbis/theora for rich web content.With this kind of technology that the new browsers bring to the arena, adobe is getting scared!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934509</id>
	<title>Digital Stewardship : PDF vs PDF/A</title>
	<author>SgtChaireBourne</author>
	<datestamp>1257003600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>PDF/A is already open.  However, that doesn't mean that anyone knows how to produce it, especially some R.O.A.D. staffer or random hourly GS1.   </p><p>Open or not, PDF/A is a display format and, in most cases, useless for information retrieval or automated data processing.  <a href="http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/fdd000125.shtml" title="digitalpreservation.gov">PDF/A is a useful alternative to paper</a> [digitalpreservation.gov].  However, the open government initiative is not talking about paper.  It's about '<a href="http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.09/borndigital.html" title="wired.com">born digital</a> [wired.com]', machine readable data. </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>PDF/A is already open .
However , that does n't mean that anyone knows how to produce it , especially some R.O.A.D .
staffer or random hourly GS1 .
Open or not , PDF/A is a display format and , in most cases , useless for information retrieval or automated data processing .
PDF/A is a useful alternative to paper [ digitalpreservation.gov ] .
However , the open government initiative is not talking about paper .
It 's about 'born digital [ wired.com ] ' , machine readable data .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PDF/A is already open.
However, that doesn't mean that anyone knows how to produce it, especially some R.O.A.D.
staffer or random hourly GS1.
Open or not, PDF/A is a display format and, in most cases, useless for information retrieval or automated data processing.
PDF/A is a useful alternative to paper [digitalpreservation.gov].
However, the open government initiative is not talking about paper.
It's about 'born digital [wired.com]', machine readable data. </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934173</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934385</id>
	<title>Re:PDF bad. Work on microformats please.</title>
	<author>iris-n</author>
	<datestamp>1257002700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>- Scientists publish PDF too but then also use other formats for data. For example on arxiv, one scientists recently published animations inside a zip but it was hard to find the link</p></div><p>Err... also? I've never seen a scientist using pdf to publish data. We use pdf (and ps and div) to publish typeset papers. The actual data is in a lot of formats, dependent on the field and application. I've seen csv, matlab's<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.mat, xml, jpeg, tiff, proprietary crap, etc.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>- Scientists publish PDF too but then also use other formats for data .
For example on arxiv , one scientists recently published animations inside a zip but it was hard to find the linkErr... also ? I 've never seen a scientist using pdf to publish data .
We use pdf ( and ps and div ) to publish typeset papers .
The actual data is in a lot of formats , dependent on the field and application .
I 've seen csv , matlab 's .mat , xml , jpeg , tiff , proprietary crap , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>- Scientists publish PDF too but then also use other formats for data.
For example on arxiv, one scientists recently published animations inside a zip but it was hard to find the linkErr... also? I've never seen a scientist using pdf to publish data.
We use pdf (and ps and div) to publish typeset papers.
The actual data is in a lot of formats, dependent on the field and application.
I've seen csv, matlab's .mat, xml, jpeg, tiff, proprietary crap, etc.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934101</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29941673</id>
	<title>Re:Nobody likes flash</title>
	<author>mrmeval</author>
	<datestamp>1257091260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes PDF is marvelous "No you can't print this document scumbag" "No you can't save a copy cretin" "No you can't extract the pretty pictures asshole". I've run into it and it's a show stopper.</p><p>KDE is not windows and windows is here to stay for the foreseeable future. That is partly microsoft at work but it's also some serious usability and other problems with distributions using either a Linux or BSD kernel.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes PDF is marvelous " No you ca n't print this document scumbag " " No you ca n't save a copy cretin " " No you ca n't extract the pretty pictures asshole " .
I 've run into it and it 's a show stopper.KDE is not windows and windows is here to stay for the foreseeable future .
That is partly microsoft at work but it 's also some serious usability and other problems with distributions using either a Linux or BSD kernel .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes PDF is marvelous "No you can't print this document scumbag" "No you can't save a copy cretin" "No you can't extract the pretty pictures asshole".
I've run into it and it's a show stopper.KDE is not windows and windows is here to stay for the foreseeable future.
That is partly microsoft at work but it's also some serious usability and other problems with distributions using either a Linux or BSD kernel.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933993</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934921</id>
	<title>Hate to Nitpick</title>
	<author>sehryan</author>
	<datestamp>1257007380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"...unfindable by search engines..."<br>That is absolutely not true. Anyone who uses Google knows that the search engine can read PDFs, identify if any of the keywords are located within, and then provide a link both directly to the PDF as well as to an HTML version.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" ...unfindable by search engines... " That is absolutely not true .
Anyone who uses Google knows that the search engine can read PDFs , identify if any of the keywords are located within , and then provide a link both directly to the PDF as well as to an HTML version .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"...unfindable by search engines..."That is absolutely not true.
Anyone who uses Google knows that the search engine can read PDFs, identify if any of the keywords are located within, and then provide a link both directly to the PDF as well as to an HTML version.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933993</id>
	<title>Nobody likes flash</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256999460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Nobody likes Flash, and they probably shouldn't use it for anything. But there's not much wrong with PDF, if it's done right. When publishing something, one could offer "source" (some sane, machine-readable format) and PDF (autogenerated from the source, and prettified for easier reading).<br> <br>PDF shouldn't be used as a way to encapsulate scanned JPEGs and pretend they're a real electronic document.<br> <br>I would also note that many of the complaints about PDF as a format in TFA are really complaints about Adobe's abysmal PDF reading software. For example, the concern about the visually impaired: KDE's Okular does speech synthesis and has a high-contrast mode.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Nobody likes Flash , and they probably should n't use it for anything .
But there 's not much wrong with PDF , if it 's done right .
When publishing something , one could offer " source " ( some sane , machine-readable format ) and PDF ( autogenerated from the source , and prettified for easier reading ) .
PDF should n't be used as a way to encapsulate scanned JPEGs and pretend they 're a real electronic document .
I would also note that many of the complaints about PDF as a format in TFA are really complaints about Adobe 's abysmal PDF reading software .
For example , the concern about the visually impaired : KDE 's Okular does speech synthesis and has a high-contrast mode .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nobody likes Flash, and they probably shouldn't use it for anything.
But there's not much wrong with PDF, if it's done right.
When publishing something, one could offer "source" (some sane, machine-readable format) and PDF (autogenerated from the source, and prettified for easier reading).
PDF shouldn't be used as a way to encapsulate scanned JPEGs and pretend they're a real electronic document.
I would also note that many of the complaints about PDF as a format in TFA are really complaints about Adobe's abysmal PDF reading software.
For example, the concern about the visually impaired: KDE's Okular does speech synthesis and has a high-contrast mode.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29935105</id>
	<title>Re:PDF Yes, Flash No</title>
	<author>markdavis</author>
	<datestamp>1257009360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;Most of what you say is implementation-related rather than format-related. It's like saying that C sucks because there are so many crappy programs.</p><p>I will agree that there are better and worse ways to IMPLEMENT Flash, but even properly implemented, it doesn't address all (or most) of my issues.</p><p>&gt;Nothing "just works" on all devices and in this area flash fares better than most other technologies; agree is slow; not really agree on RAM usage.</p><p>HTML works fine on all devices.  95\% of the time I see Flash used, it is totally unnecessary.</p><p>&gt;Flash uses less bandwidth than alternatives, it's quite very well optimized. Sure, someone can stuff some 10 min. mp3s encoded at 256kbps and and bunch of 2048x2048 bitmaps but that's another story.</p><p>Agreed- for when you really need video or audio, that is one of the few times Flash shines (although it is still a pig).  But we are mostly talking about documents, not multimedia.  And for general website use and documents, rarely does Flash really add anything useful to counteract the tremendous negatives.</p><p>&gt;Cut/Paste is more tedious because of security reasons but keyboard shortcuts work.</p><p>I cannot highlight and middle paste somewhere, so it is at least 1/2 broken.</p><p>&gt; Search works too and static text is indexed by Google.</p><p>Funny, when I do control-F in firefox and ask to find something, it never finds anything inside a Flash object.</p><p>&gt;Agree on native UI, but then so it's Java.</p><p>And I agree on Java- it is usually unnecessary and an annoying pig too.  But I encounter Java less than 1\% of the time I encounter unnecessary Flash.</p><p>&gt; Font size is controllable by user if the app is done properly -- granted, user can't override any settings.</p><p>And that is what I am talking about.  I am rarely, if ever in control when viewing anything Flash.  I can do ONLY what the developer decided I should be allowed to do, and only in their non-standard way.</p><p>&gt; Rarely adjust to screen size - are you kidding me? it's vector, by default it will adjust to anything and can be programmed a lot better than CSS/HTML.</p><p>Try this on your small internet tablet or Flash supporting phone:  <a href="http://blueswitch.com/" title="blueswitch.com">http://blueswitch.com/</a> [blueswitch.com]   It is a perfect example of the typical Flash site that doesn't adjust to anything.  And without Flash, there is essentially no content.  If you have a large screen, it uses only a fraction of it.  If you have a small screen, it is barely usable.</p><p>&gt;Irritating animation - not a fault of the format itself.</p><p>True.  And, yet, Flash developers can't seem to resist form over function.</p><p>&gt;Works with screen readers -- seriously, have you TRIED it?</p><p>Under what platforms does it work?  All?  Can the browser see the text inside Flash?  Can the OS?</p><p>&gt;One more comment from the summary: "unfindable by search engines" - where does this come from? Google and all have been indexing PDF files since 10 years ago.</p><p>I assume they are referring to text within Flash objects, not PDF.</p><p>&gt;I know Slashdot crowd loves to hate flash, but at least hate it for the right reasons: its lack of speed and real 3d hardware acceleration.</p><p>There are a lot more reasons to hate it than 3D and speed.  I listed quite a few already.  And you are correct that maybe half of my issues are with the typical IMPLEMENTATION of Flash and not Flash itself.  But if 99\% of the time I saw a steel pipe in someone's hand it was used to clobber and rob people, I might be upset when I see one.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; Most of what you say is implementation-related rather than format-related .
It 's like saying that C sucks because there are so many crappy programs.I will agree that there are better and worse ways to IMPLEMENT Flash , but even properly implemented , it does n't address all ( or most ) of my issues. &gt; Nothing " just works " on all devices and in this area flash fares better than most other technologies ; agree is slow ; not really agree on RAM usage.HTML works fine on all devices .
95 \ % of the time I see Flash used , it is totally unnecessary. &gt; Flash uses less bandwidth than alternatives , it 's quite very well optimized .
Sure , someone can stuff some 10 min .
mp3s encoded at 256kbps and and bunch of 2048x2048 bitmaps but that 's another story.Agreed- for when you really need video or audio , that is one of the few times Flash shines ( although it is still a pig ) .
But we are mostly talking about documents , not multimedia .
And for general website use and documents , rarely does Flash really add anything useful to counteract the tremendous negatives. &gt; Cut/Paste is more tedious because of security reasons but keyboard shortcuts work.I can not highlight and middle paste somewhere , so it is at least 1/2 broken. &gt; Search works too and static text is indexed by Google.Funny , when I do control-F in firefox and ask to find something , it never finds anything inside a Flash object. &gt; Agree on native UI , but then so it 's Java.And I agree on Java- it is usually unnecessary and an annoying pig too .
But I encounter Java less than 1 \ % of the time I encounter unnecessary Flash. &gt; Font size is controllable by user if the app is done properly -- granted , user ca n't override any settings.And that is what I am talking about .
I am rarely , if ever in control when viewing anything Flash .
I can do ONLY what the developer decided I should be allowed to do , and only in their non-standard way. &gt; Rarely adjust to screen size - are you kidding me ?
it 's vector , by default it will adjust to anything and can be programmed a lot better than CSS/HTML.Try this on your small internet tablet or Flash supporting phone : http : //blueswitch.com/ [ blueswitch.com ] It is a perfect example of the typical Flash site that does n't adjust to anything .
And without Flash , there is essentially no content .
If you have a large screen , it uses only a fraction of it .
If you have a small screen , it is barely usable. &gt; Irritating animation - not a fault of the format itself.True .
And , yet , Flash developers ca n't seem to resist form over function. &gt; Works with screen readers -- seriously , have you TRIED it ? Under what platforms does it work ?
All ? Can the browser see the text inside Flash ?
Can the OS ? &gt; One more comment from the summary : " unfindable by search engines " - where does this come from ?
Google and all have been indexing PDF files since 10 years ago.I assume they are referring to text within Flash objects , not PDF. &gt; I know Slashdot crowd loves to hate flash , but at least hate it for the right reasons : its lack of speed and real 3d hardware acceleration.There are a lot more reasons to hate it than 3D and speed .
I listed quite a few already .
And you are correct that maybe half of my issues are with the typical IMPLEMENTATION of Flash and not Flash itself .
But if 99 \ % of the time I saw a steel pipe in someone 's hand it was used to clobber and rob people , I might be upset when I see one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;Most of what you say is implementation-related rather than format-related.
It's like saying that C sucks because there are so many crappy programs.I will agree that there are better and worse ways to IMPLEMENT Flash, but even properly implemented, it doesn't address all (or most) of my issues.&gt;Nothing "just works" on all devices and in this area flash fares better than most other technologies; agree is slow; not really agree on RAM usage.HTML works fine on all devices.
95\% of the time I see Flash used, it is totally unnecessary.&gt;Flash uses less bandwidth than alternatives, it's quite very well optimized.
Sure, someone can stuff some 10 min.
mp3s encoded at 256kbps and and bunch of 2048x2048 bitmaps but that's another story.Agreed- for when you really need video or audio, that is one of the few times Flash shines (although it is still a pig).
But we are mostly talking about documents, not multimedia.
And for general website use and documents, rarely does Flash really add anything useful to counteract the tremendous negatives.&gt;Cut/Paste is more tedious because of security reasons but keyboard shortcuts work.I cannot highlight and middle paste somewhere, so it is at least 1/2 broken.&gt; Search works too and static text is indexed by Google.Funny, when I do control-F in firefox and ask to find something, it never finds anything inside a Flash object.&gt;Agree on native UI, but then so it's Java.And I agree on Java- it is usually unnecessary and an annoying pig too.
But I encounter Java less than 1\% of the time I encounter unnecessary Flash.&gt; Font size is controllable by user if the app is done properly -- granted, user can't override any settings.And that is what I am talking about.
I am rarely, if ever in control when viewing anything Flash.
I can do ONLY what the developer decided I should be allowed to do, and only in their non-standard way.&gt; Rarely adjust to screen size - are you kidding me?
it's vector, by default it will adjust to anything and can be programmed a lot better than CSS/HTML.Try this on your small internet tablet or Flash supporting phone:  http://blueswitch.com/ [blueswitch.com]   It is a perfect example of the typical Flash site that doesn't adjust to anything.
And without Flash, there is essentially no content.
If you have a large screen, it uses only a fraction of it.
If you have a small screen, it is barely usable.&gt;Irritating animation - not a fault of the format itself.True.
And, yet, Flash developers can't seem to resist form over function.&gt;Works with screen readers -- seriously, have you TRIED it?Under what platforms does it work?
All?  Can the browser see the text inside Flash?
Can the OS?&gt;One more comment from the summary: "unfindable by search engines" - where does this come from?
Google and all have been indexing PDF files since 10 years ago.I assume they are referring to text within Flash objects, not PDF.&gt;I know Slashdot crowd loves to hate flash, but at least hate it for the right reasons: its lack of speed and real 3d hardware acceleration.There are a lot more reasons to hate it than 3D and speed.
I listed quite a few already.
And you are correct that maybe half of my issues are with the typical IMPLEMENTATION of Flash and not Flash itself.
But if 99\% of the time I saw a steel pipe in someone's hand it was used to clobber and rob people, I might be upset when I see one.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934611</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934047</id>
	<title>Re:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257000060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The point being about open government, freedom of information and accessibility of data.<br>PDF carries the information you're looking for in a less convenient form, which more to<br>the point is frequently derived from a source that could easily provide a more convenient<br>form of access. Sunlight labs puts it this way:<br>We can turn XML into PDFs. We can't turn PDFs into XML.</p><p>We've had a couple of decades now since SGML, a bunch of progress on its derived and<br>related technologies, but 'downgrading' the publicly accessible format to PDF seems<br>like a step in the wrong direction simply to make things look nice and be a<br>no-brainer to publish.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The point being about open government , freedom of information and accessibility of data.PDF carries the information you 're looking for in a less convenient form , which more tothe point is frequently derived from a source that could easily provide a more convenientform of access .
Sunlight labs puts it this way : We can turn XML into PDFs .
We ca n't turn PDFs into XML.We 've had a couple of decades now since SGML , a bunch of progress on its derived andrelated technologies , but 'downgrading ' the publicly accessible format to PDF seemslike a step in the wrong direction simply to make things look nice and be ano-brainer to publish .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The point being about open government, freedom of information and accessibility of data.PDF carries the information you're looking for in a less convenient form, which more tothe point is frequently derived from a source that could easily provide a more convenientform of access.
Sunlight labs puts it this way:We can turn XML into PDFs.
We can't turn PDFs into XML.We've had a couple of decades now since SGML, a bunch of progress on its derived andrelated technologies, but 'downgrading' the publicly accessible format to PDF seemslike a step in the wrong direction simply to make things look nice and be ano-brainer to publish.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934201</id>
	<title>Depends on the purpose</title>
	<author>PineHall</author>
	<datestamp>1257001440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you are publishing a document  that can be printed then PDF is a good format.  If you expect people to extract data from the document then you should look for a different format.  It depends on the purpose of posting the document on the web.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you are publishing a document that can be printed then PDF is a good format .
If you expect people to extract data from the document then you should look for a different format .
It depends on the purpose of posting the document on the web .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you are publishing a document  that can be printed then PDF is a good format.
If you expect people to extract data from the document then you should look for a different format.
It depends on the purpose of posting the document on the web.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934277</id>
	<title>Re:PDF bad. Work on microformats please.</title>
	<author>bcmm</author>
	<datestamp>1257001920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The majority of those issues would be fixed by publishing LaTeX sources next to the PDFs generated from them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The majority of those issues would be fixed by publishing LaTeX sources next to the PDFs generated from them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The majority of those issues would be fixed by publishing LaTeX sources next to the PDFs generated from them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934101</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934531</id>
	<title>Re:Tremor</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257003900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But the government SHOULD publish the data and offer a viewer to help people digest it.  People should be able to figure the data out themselves, and not have "spoonfed graphs that show what we want you to see" as the only option.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But the government SHOULD publish the data and offer a viewer to help people digest it .
People should be able to figure the data out themselves , and not have " spoonfed graphs that show what we want you to see " as the only option .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But the government SHOULD publish the data and offer a viewer to help people digest it.
People should be able to figure the data out themselves, and not have "spoonfed graphs that show what we want you to see" as the only option.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29934087</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29937511</id>
	<title>Re:Nobody likes flash</title>
	<author>robogun</author>
	<datestamp>1256988540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Additional reasons are they're closed, and are malware vectors that need to be constantly updated. As if that wasn't enough reason not to use them, there are even phishing scams to update your flash or pdf installs... with the scammers horrible malware.</p><p>Unless you play Flash games or view Youtube all day there is no need to run Flash, all it does is deliver ugly ads or someone's horribly botched schoolboy attempt at an edgy webpage. Flash, far from enabling web usage is often used to RESTRICT usage, go to Webshots for an example of that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Additional reasons are they 're closed , and are malware vectors that need to be constantly updated .
As if that was n't enough reason not to use them , there are even phishing scams to update your flash or pdf installs... with the scammers horrible malware.Unless you play Flash games or view Youtube all day there is no need to run Flash , all it does is deliver ugly ads or someone 's horribly botched schoolboy attempt at an edgy webpage .
Flash , far from enabling web usage is often used to RESTRICT usage , go to Webshots for an example of that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Additional reasons are they're closed, and are malware vectors that need to be constantly updated.
As if that wasn't enough reason not to use them, there are even phishing scams to update your flash or pdf installs... with the scammers horrible malware.Unless you play Flash games or view Youtube all day there is no need to run Flash, all it does is deliver ugly ads or someone's horribly botched schoolboy attempt at an edgy webpage.
Flash, far from enabling web usage is often used to RESTRICT usage, go to Webshots for an example of that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_31_128236.29933993</parent>
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