<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_10_23_0532255</id>
	<title>History In Video Games &mdash; a Closer Look</title>
	<author>Soulskill</author>
	<datestamp>1256323620000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>scruffybr writes <i>"Whether it's World War 2, the American Wild West or ancient Greece, history has long <a href="http://www.criticalgamer.co.uk/2009/10/21/history-in-video-games-a-closer-look/">provided a rich source of video game narrative</a>. Historical fact has been painstakingly preserved in some games, yet distorted beyond all recognition in others. Whereas one game may be praised for its depiction of history, others have been lambasted for opening fresh wounds or glorifying tragic events of our near past. Games have utilized historical narrative extensively, but to what extent does the platform take liberties with, and perhaps misuse it?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>scruffybr writes " Whether it 's World War 2 , the American Wild West or ancient Greece , history has long provided a rich source of video game narrative .
Historical fact has been painstakingly preserved in some games , yet distorted beyond all recognition in others .
Whereas one game may be praised for its depiction of history , others have been lambasted for opening fresh wounds or glorifying tragic events of our near past .
Games have utilized historical narrative extensively , but to what extent does the platform take liberties with , and perhaps misuse it ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>scruffybr writes "Whether it's World War 2, the American Wild West or ancient Greece, history has long provided a rich source of video game narrative.
Historical fact has been painstakingly preserved in some games, yet distorted beyond all recognition in others.
Whereas one game may be praised for its depiction of history, others have been lambasted for opening fresh wounds or glorifying tragic events of our near past.
Games have utilized historical narrative extensively, but to what extent does the platform take liberties with, and perhaps misuse it?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843857</id>
	<title>Star Wars?</title>
	<author>Anci3nt of Days</author>
	<datestamp>1256294040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The real question is how we assess Star Wars for historical accuracy.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....</p></div></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The real question is how we assess Star Wars for historical accuracy.A long time ago in a galaxy far , far away... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The real question is how we assess Star Wars for historical accuracy.A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29846629</id>
	<title>Re:It honestly is just which politics you are...</title>
	<author>DarthVain</author>
	<datestamp>1256315940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unless its like when the Germans banned Wolfenstein (at least twice, not sure about ET) because of the Nazi content... um.. oh wait...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless its like when the Germans banned Wolfenstein ( at least twice , not sure about ET ) because of the Nazi content... um.. oh wait.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless its like when the Germans banned Wolfenstein (at least twice, not sure about ET) because of the Nazi content... um.. oh wait...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843311</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29853799</id>
	<title>Selling Gucci Caps &amp; Sweater ,Bape Jean&amp;Ai</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256311680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
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<tokenext>                Http : //www.tntshoes.comAttractive ! ! !
JD fusion sport shoes,brand shoes , fashion shoe with competetive price do dropship1 ) Made of superior quality upper materials.2 ) Unique designs , various colors and models are available.3 ) Original packing with box , tags and labels.4 ) Reasonable/competitive price : with the factory price.5 ) Prompt and safe deliverywe will ship the products within 24 hours after the receipt of payment , and they would arrived by DHL , EMS , TNT , FEDEX , DPEX , UPS within 5-7 days.6 ) Payment terms : paypal ; T/T .
western union , moneygram .
    any questions , feel free to contact me : OUR WEBSITE :                                                         YAHOO : shoppertrade @ yahoo.com.cn                                                                 MSN : shoppertrade @ hotmail.com                                                                 Http : //www.tntshoes.com</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
                Http://www.tntshoes.comAttractive!!!
JD fusion sport shoes,brand shoes, fashion shoe with competetive price do dropship1) Made of superior quality upper materials.2) Unique designs, various colors and models are available.3) Original packing with box, tags and labels.4) Reasonable/competitive price : with the factory price.5) Prompt and safe deliverywe will ship the products within 24 hours after the receipt of payment, and they would arrived by DHL, EMS, TNT, FEDEX, DPEX, UPS within 5-7 days.6) Payment terms:paypal; T/T.
western union, moneygram.
    any questions, feel free to contact me:OUR WEBSITE:
                                                        YAHOO:shoppertrade@yahoo.com.cn
                                                                MSN:shoppertrade@hotmail.com
                                                                Http://www.tntshoes.com</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845969</id>
	<title>Victory at Sea</title>
	<author>schiefaw</author>
	<datestamp>1256312160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I once had a game on my Mac called "Victory at Sea" (pre-OSX days). The game was buggy as hell, but the game was researched by Jim Dunnigan and Albert Nofi. They created a book of the same name from the research they had assembled.</p><p>Great research, crappy game (because it was unplayable).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I once had a game on my Mac called " Victory at Sea " ( pre-OSX days ) .
The game was buggy as hell , but the game was researched by Jim Dunnigan and Albert Nofi .
They created a book of the same name from the research they had assembled.Great research , crappy game ( because it was unplayable ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I once had a game on my Mac called "Victory at Sea" (pre-OSX days).
The game was buggy as hell, but the game was researched by Jim Dunnigan and Albert Nofi.
They created a book of the same name from the research they had assembled.Great research, crappy game (because it was unplayable).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29846001</id>
	<title>Re:hmmm</title>
	<author>relguj9</author>
	<datestamp>1256312400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Video games can also grossly misrepresent <a href="http://www.spore.com/ftl" title="spore.com">evolution</a> [spore.com], <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sim\_racing" title="wikipedia.org">driving</a> [wikipedia.org], <a href="http://www.lucasarts.com/games/indianajones/" title="lucasarts.com">archaeology</a> [lucasarts.com] and just about anything else they're based on.  They are for the most part a source of entertainment meant to create a virtual world that may or may not have anything to do with real life.  That is the point.  They're supposed to be fun.  Sometimes the historical inaccuracy is the whole point; It can be fun to interact with a world that isn't historically accurate; alternate timelines for example.</p></div><p>I'm pissed that my video game misrepresents Elves.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Video games can also grossly misrepresent evolution [ spore.com ] , driving [ wikipedia.org ] , archaeology [ lucasarts.com ] and just about anything else they 're based on .
They are for the most part a source of entertainment meant to create a virtual world that may or may not have anything to do with real life .
That is the point .
They 're supposed to be fun .
Sometimes the historical inaccuracy is the whole point ; It can be fun to interact with a world that is n't historically accurate ; alternate timelines for example.I 'm pissed that my video game misrepresents Elves .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Video games can also grossly misrepresent evolution [spore.com], driving [wikipedia.org], archaeology [lucasarts.com] and just about anything else they're based on.
They are for the most part a source of entertainment meant to create a virtual world that may or may not have anything to do with real life.
That is the point.
They're supposed to be fun.
Sometimes the historical inaccuracy is the whole point; It can be fun to interact with a world that isn't historically accurate; alternate timelines for example.I'm pissed that my video game misrepresents Elves.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843401</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843487</id>
	<title>Hmph</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256330940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Of course thanks to the genius of Holywood we all know the Enigma machine was really stolen by a bunch of Americans (U-571) and not by Poles....</p><p>Movies have been playing silly buggers with history since the first movies, video games are no different. Both are forms of escapism from reality.</p><p>Why's this a) a suprise and b) taken so long for some to figure out?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course thanks to the genius of Holywood we all know the Enigma machine was really stolen by a bunch of Americans ( U-571 ) and not by Poles....Movies have been playing silly buggers with history since the first movies , video games are no different .
Both are forms of escapism from reality.Why 's this a ) a suprise and b ) taken so long for some to figure out ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course thanks to the genius of Holywood we all know the Enigma machine was really stolen by a bunch of Americans (U-571) and not by Poles....Movies have been playing silly buggers with history since the first movies, video games are no different.
Both are forms of escapism from reality.Why's this a) a suprise and b) taken so long for some to figure out?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843623</id>
	<title>Re:Where is the news?</title>
	<author>dontmakemethink</author>
	<datestamp>1256290320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The same thing has happened in the movies. Often historical events were only used as distorted background. And movies are as games made for entertainment purposes. So what counts is entertainment value not historical accuracy.</p></div><p>Shocking.  Tell me again where accuracy is actually appreciated, outside of a profession or academics?  Politics?  Media?  Religion?</p><p>I say let Obama run the economy into the ground, we gotta focus on this video game historical accuracy issue.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The same thing has happened in the movies .
Often historical events were only used as distorted background .
And movies are as games made for entertainment purposes .
So what counts is entertainment value not historical accuracy.Shocking .
Tell me again where accuracy is actually appreciated , outside of a profession or academics ?
Politics ? Media ?
Religion ? I say let Obama run the economy into the ground , we got ta focus on this video game historical accuracy issue .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The same thing has happened in the movies.
Often historical events were only used as distorted background.
And movies are as games made for entertainment purposes.
So what counts is entertainment value not historical accuracy.Shocking.
Tell me again where accuracy is actually appreciated, outside of a profession or academics?
Politics?  Media?
Religion?I say let Obama run the economy into the ground, we gotta focus on this video game historical accuracy issue.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843315</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845071</id>
	<title>Re:It honestly is just which politics you are...</title>
	<author>RiotingPacifist</author>
	<datestamp>1256307000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is a difference between bias and braveheart, and while some bending of the facts/making stuff up is cool, what's scary is that people believe the bullshit they see in videogames/movies (granted its much worse for movies than videogames but i'm sure some retard out there believes the plot to MSG is historically accurate)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is a difference between bias and braveheart , and while some bending of the facts/making stuff up is cool , what 's scary is that people believe the bullshit they see in videogames/movies ( granted its much worse for movies than videogames but i 'm sure some retard out there believes the plot to MSG is historically accurate )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is a difference between bias and braveheart, and while some bending of the facts/making stuff up is cool, what's scary is that people believe the bullshit they see in videogames/movies (granted its much worse for movies than videogames but i'm sure some retard out there believes the plot to MSG is historically accurate)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843311</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29847517</id>
	<title>Re:Hmph</title>
	<author>Blakey Rat</author>
	<datestamp>1256320140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's nothing. The "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant" quote frequently attributed to Admiral Yamamoto? He never said that. It was invented by the screenwriters of Tora! Tora! Tora!</p><p>So, while the story here might have a point, why does Hollywood get a pass? They've altered a lot more historical events than the gaming industry.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's nothing .
The " I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant " quote frequently attributed to Admiral Yamamoto ?
He never said that .
It was invented by the screenwriters of Tora !
Tora ! Tora ! So , while the story here might have a point , why does Hollywood get a pass ?
They 've altered a lot more historical events than the gaming industry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's nothing.
The "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant" quote frequently attributed to Admiral Yamamoto?
He never said that.
It was invented by the screenwriters of Tora!
Tora! Tora!So, while the story here might have a point, why does Hollywood get a pass?
They've altered a lot more historical events than the gaming industry.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843487</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845061</id>
	<title>Re:Where is the news?</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1256306940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>So what counts is entertainment value not historical accuracy.</i></p><p>Indeed; it's just a game, not a fucking history lesson. Anyone who thinks a Gary Cooper movie is in any way like the old west, or in any way historically accurate, is woefully ignorant. Anyone who thinks any game is indicative of real history is just plain stupid; history is fixed, a game's outcome isn't.</p><p>Sure, there are historically accurate movies (e.g., <i>The Long Riders</i> or <i>Apollo 13</i>), but one shouldn't <b>expect</b> a movie or especially a game to mirror history.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So what counts is entertainment value not historical accuracy.Indeed ; it 's just a game , not a fucking history lesson .
Anyone who thinks a Gary Cooper movie is in any way like the old west , or in any way historically accurate , is woefully ignorant .
Anyone who thinks any game is indicative of real history is just plain stupid ; history is fixed , a game 's outcome is n't.Sure , there are historically accurate movies ( e.g. , The Long Riders or Apollo 13 ) , but one should n't expect a movie or especially a game to mirror history .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So what counts is entertainment value not historical accuracy.Indeed; it's just a game, not a fucking history lesson.
Anyone who thinks a Gary Cooper movie is in any way like the old west, or in any way historically accurate, is woefully ignorant.
Anyone who thinks any game is indicative of real history is just plain stupid; history is fixed, a game's outcome isn't.Sure, there are historically accurate movies (e.g., The Long Riders or Apollo 13), but one shouldn't expect a movie or especially a game to mirror history.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843315</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29844311</id>
	<title>Re:It honestly is just which politics you are...</title>
	<author>indiechild</author>
	<datestamp>1256300820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Are you kidding? Neo-nazis would love 99\% of war games I would imagine. Most of the time, the Nazis are hardly even being mentioned, let alone painted in a bad light. It's usually the Germans who are depicted in WWII games, not the Nazis. And everybody loves playing the Germans.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Are you kidding ?
Neo-nazis would love 99 \ % of war games I would imagine .
Most of the time , the Nazis are hardly even being mentioned , let alone painted in a bad light .
It 's usually the Germans who are depicted in WWII games , not the Nazis .
And everybody loves playing the Germans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are you kidding?
Neo-nazis would love 99\% of war games I would imagine.
Most of the time, the Nazis are hardly even being mentioned, let alone painted in a bad light.
It's usually the Germans who are depicted in WWII games, not the Nazis.
And everybody loves playing the Germans.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843311</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845509</id>
	<title>Re:Non issue</title>
	<author>aicrules</author>
	<datestamp>1256309940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yeah, after the segment on WW2 in history, my child asked why the Allies didn't just type in IDDQD before D-day.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , after the segment on WW2 in history , my child asked why the Allies did n't just type in IDDQD before D-day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, after the segment on WW2 in history, my child asked why the Allies didn't just type in IDDQD before D-day.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843537</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843401</id>
	<title>hmmm</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256329380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Video games can also grossly misrepresent <a href="http://www.spore.com/ftl" title="spore.com">evolution</a> [spore.com], <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sim\_racing" title="wikipedia.org">driving</a> [wikipedia.org], <a href="http://www.lucasarts.com/games/indianajones/" title="lucasarts.com">archaeology</a> [lucasarts.com] and just about anything else they're based on.  They are for the most part a source of entertainment meant to create a virtual world that may or may not have anything to do with real life.  That is the point.  They're supposed to be fun.  Sometimes the historical inaccuracy is the whole point; It can be fun to interact with a world that isn't historically accurate; alternate timelines for example.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Video games can also grossly misrepresent evolution [ spore.com ] , driving [ wikipedia.org ] , archaeology [ lucasarts.com ] and just about anything else they 're based on .
They are for the most part a source of entertainment meant to create a virtual world that may or may not have anything to do with real life .
That is the point .
They 're supposed to be fun .
Sometimes the historical inaccuracy is the whole point ; It can be fun to interact with a world that is n't historically accurate ; alternate timelines for example .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Video games can also grossly misrepresent evolution [spore.com], driving [wikipedia.org], archaeology [lucasarts.com] and just about anything else they're based on.
They are for the most part a source of entertainment meant to create a virtual world that may or may not have anything to do with real life.
That is the point.
They're supposed to be fun.
Sometimes the historical inaccuracy is the whole point; It can be fun to interact with a world that isn't historically accurate; alternate timelines for example.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29851231</id>
	<title>Re:Historians talk about history very differently</title>
	<author>agnosticnixie</author>
	<datestamp>1256290620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a RTS, if you start early enough, there's Hearts of Iron II from Paradox. Well, or Victoria with the Revolutions addon with the Great War scenario, but it will stop in 1934 just in time for the Nazis to take over.</p><p>As a RPG/FPS/First Person something, it could make an epic game of intrigue. And it would be pretty damn bleak, then again, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defcon\_(video\_game)" title="wikipedia.org">if you like bleak...</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a RTS , if you start early enough , there 's Hearts of Iron II from Paradox .
Well , or Victoria with the Revolutions addon with the Great War scenario , but it will stop in 1934 just in time for the Nazis to take over.As a RPG/FPS/First Person something , it could make an epic game of intrigue .
And it would be pretty damn bleak , then again , if you like bleak... [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a RTS, if you start early enough, there's Hearts of Iron II from Paradox.
Well, or Victoria with the Revolutions addon with the Great War scenario, but it will stop in 1934 just in time for the Nazis to take over.As a RPG/FPS/First Person something, it could make an epic game of intrigue.
And it would be pretty damn bleak, then again, if you like bleak... [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845595</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29846407</id>
	<title>Re:not many use it substantively, though</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256314680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"But where's playable history in any real fashion?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. I mean this as a serious question"</p><p>The closest I've seen would be Europa Universalis, or any other title from Paradox Games.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" But where 's playable history in any real fashion ?
.. I mean this as a serious question " The closest I 've seen would be Europa Universalis , or any other title from Paradox Games .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"But where's playable history in any real fashion?
.. I mean this as a serious question"The closest I've seen would be Europa Universalis, or any other title from Paradox Games.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843367</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29844519</id>
	<title>Re:History is just a conveniently premade "world"</title>
	<author>Nidi62</author>
	<datestamp>1256303040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The whole idea of history as repeatable is not really held to within the field.  Just because results are similar does not mean history repeated itself.  The factors that caused these similar outcomes may be completely different.  History has no predictive value, it is only descriptive.  It can allow you to understand how something got the way it is, but it cannot tell you where it will go from there.  Whenever I hear someone say "history repeats itself", I usually see someone with very little schooling in the field beyond basic intro classes.  And yes, IAAH(I am a historian)(by education).


On another note, they should just change the name of the History Channel to the Nostradamus and Anti-Christ channel.  You gotta love how they somehow combine Nostradamus with the Mayan 2012 prophecy, too.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The whole idea of history as repeatable is not really held to within the field .
Just because results are similar does not mean history repeated itself .
The factors that caused these similar outcomes may be completely different .
History has no predictive value , it is only descriptive .
It can allow you to understand how something got the way it is , but it can not tell you where it will go from there .
Whenever I hear someone say " history repeats itself " , I usually see someone with very little schooling in the field beyond basic intro classes .
And yes , IAAH ( I am a historian ) ( by education ) .
On another note , they should just change the name of the History Channel to the Nostradamus and Anti-Christ channel .
You got ta love how they somehow combine Nostradamus with the Mayan 2012 prophecy , too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The whole idea of history as repeatable is not really held to within the field.
Just because results are similar does not mean history repeated itself.
The factors that caused these similar outcomes may be completely different.
History has no predictive value, it is only descriptive.
It can allow you to understand how something got the way it is, but it cannot tell you where it will go from there.
Whenever I hear someone say "history repeats itself", I usually see someone with very little schooling in the field beyond basic intro classes.
And yes, IAAH(I am a historian)(by education).
On another note, they should just change the name of the History Channel to the Nostradamus and Anti-Christ channel.
You gotta love how they somehow combine Nostradamus with the Mayan 2012 prophecy, too.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843387</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29849791</id>
	<title>EB</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256328360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Has anyone ever heard of Europa Barbarorum? It's a mod for Rome: Total War that was designed specifically to be historically accurate. If you haven't tried it, you're missing out.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Has anyone ever heard of Europa Barbarorum ?
It 's a mod for Rome : Total War that was designed specifically to be historically accurate .
If you have n't tried it , you 're missing out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Has anyone ever heard of Europa Barbarorum?
It's a mod for Rome: Total War that was designed specifically to be historically accurate.
If you haven't tried it, you're missing out.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29844763</id>
	<title>Only games?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256305020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why all the complaining about games?</p><p>I mean, we all know that Indiana Jones snatched the Holy Grail from the Nazis and thank god that Shakespeare stuck so close with the history facts for "Hamlet". Jepp, that's how it all happened.</p><p>Gosh...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why all the complaining about games ? I mean , we all know that Indiana Jones snatched the Holy Grail from the Nazis and thank god that Shakespeare stuck so close with the history facts for " Hamlet " .
Jepp , that 's how it all happened.Gosh.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why all the complaining about games?I mean, we all know that Indiana Jones snatched the Holy Grail from the Nazis and thank god that Shakespeare stuck so close with the history facts for "Hamlet".
Jepp, that's how it all happened.Gosh...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29846873</id>
	<title>Re:Non issue</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1256317080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your argument only makes sense, when you meant to be funny. Otherwise it's proven bullshit. Especially since the change of brain architecture that happened to post-1950 brains.</p><p>Besides: Games are training for reality. But they are by definition different. Else they would be reality. And every mind understands that. Even the most primitive playing animals do understand the difference. Like two kittens or puppies, "fighting" with each other in a playful way.</p><p>If someone lost this ability, his intelligence in that context fell below the level of those primitive animals, and he must be declared ill, and healed. (Or expelled from the community if he is endangering it. His choice.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your argument only makes sense , when you meant to be funny .
Otherwise it 's proven bullshit .
Especially since the change of brain architecture that happened to post-1950 brains.Besides : Games are training for reality .
But they are by definition different .
Else they would be reality .
And every mind understands that .
Even the most primitive playing animals do understand the difference .
Like two kittens or puppies , " fighting " with each other in a playful way.If someone lost this ability , his intelligence in that context fell below the level of those primitive animals , and he must be declared ill , and healed .
( Or expelled from the community if he is endangering it .
His choice .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your argument only makes sense, when you meant to be funny.
Otherwise it's proven bullshit.
Especially since the change of brain architecture that happened to post-1950 brains.Besides: Games are training for reality.
But they are by definition different.
Else they would be reality.
And every mind understands that.
Even the most primitive playing animals do understand the difference.
Like two kittens or puppies, "fighting" with each other in a playful way.If someone lost this ability, his intelligence in that context fell below the level of those primitive animals, and he must be declared ill, and healed.
(Or expelled from the community if he is endangering it.
His choice.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843537</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843677</id>
	<title>Ingloriuos Basterds</title>
	<author>atilla filiz</author>
	<datestamp>1256291280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wasn't Hitler killed in a French movie theater by two simultaneous plots by Jewish a girl and Jew-American soldiers?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Was n't Hitler killed in a French movie theater by two simultaneous plots by Jewish a girl and Jew-American soldiers ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wasn't Hitler killed in a French movie theater by two simultaneous plots by Jewish a girl and Jew-American soldiers?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843709</id>
	<title>Re:Where is the news?</title>
	<author>L4t3r4lu5</author>
	<datestamp>1256291820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Indeed! For instance, did you know that the Spartans actually spoke Doric Greek?<br> <br>There was no "Madness? <b>THIS IS SPARTA!</b>"</htmltext>
<tokenext>Indeed !
For instance , did you know that the Spartans actually spoke Doric Greek ?
There was no " Madness ?
THIS IS SPARTA !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Indeed!
For instance, did you know that the Spartans actually spoke Doric Greek?
There was no "Madness?
THIS IS SPARTA!
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843315</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845917</id>
	<title>I Learned All My History from Civ2</title>
	<author>pezpunk</author>
	<datestamp>1256311920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For example, in 500AD, President Julius Ceasar of the Roman Empire discovered railroads, which led to Charles Darwin's Voyage, which as every schoolboy knows resulted in the Romans immediately aquiring the knowledge of both Amphibious Warfare and Economics, thus allowing them to finally end their 3000 year war with King Abraham Lincoln of the United States.  This expansion led to much unrest amongst the populace, however, and in order to maintain order Ceasar was forced to convert nearly 35\% of his worforce into Elvis impersonators.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For example , in 500AD , President Julius Ceasar of the Roman Empire discovered railroads , which led to Charles Darwin 's Voyage , which as every schoolboy knows resulted in the Romans immediately aquiring the knowledge of both Amphibious Warfare and Economics , thus allowing them to finally end their 3000 year war with King Abraham Lincoln of the United States .
This expansion led to much unrest amongst the populace , however , and in order to maintain order Ceasar was forced to convert nearly 35 \ % of his worforce into Elvis impersonators .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For example, in 500AD, President Julius Ceasar of the Roman Empire discovered railroads, which led to Charles Darwin's Voyage, which as every schoolboy knows resulted in the Romans immediately aquiring the knowledge of both Amphibious Warfare and Economics, thus allowing them to finally end their 3000 year war with King Abraham Lincoln of the United States.
This expansion led to much unrest amongst the populace, however, and in order to maintain order Ceasar was forced to convert nearly 35\% of his worforce into Elvis impersonators.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29844605</id>
	<title>Praise the slashquote system</title>
	<author>CrashandDie</author>
	<datestamp>1256303940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I can't help but smile at the slashdot quote system that shows quotes at the bottom of the screen. As I'm reading this, it reads:<p><div class="quote"><p>Some parts of the past must be preserved, and some of the future prevented at all costs.</p></div></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't help but smile at the slashdot quote system that shows quotes at the bottom of the screen .
As I 'm reading this , it reads : Some parts of the past must be preserved , and some of the future prevented at all costs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't help but smile at the slashdot quote system that shows quotes at the bottom of the screen.
As I'm reading this, it reads:Some parts of the past must be preserved, and some of the future prevented at all costs.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843433</id>
	<title>Re:Non issue</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256329980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Except for Return to Castle Wolfenstein - that was a historical documentary.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Except for Return to Castle Wolfenstein - that was a historical documentary .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Except for Return to Castle Wolfenstein - that was a historical documentary.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843325</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843311</id>
	<title>It honestly is just which politics you are...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256241000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For example, if you are a nazi, then you probably think 90\% of video games are horrible, slanderous, libelous, and a gross distortion of history.</p><p>If you're not, you probably find them fun.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For example , if you are a nazi , then you probably think 90 \ % of video games are horrible , slanderous , libelous , and a gross distortion of history.If you 're not , you probably find them fun .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For example, if you are a nazi, then you probably think 90\% of video games are horrible, slanderous, libelous, and a gross distortion of history.If you're not, you probably find them fun.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29846661</id>
	<title>Re:I Learned All My History from Civ2</title>
	<author>dschmit1</author>
	<datestamp>1256316120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>And then you got a blue screen of death just prior to world domination. Am I right?  Folks? I'm sure I wasn't the only heartbroken Civ player here.</htmltext>
<tokenext>And then you got a blue screen of death just prior to world domination .
Am I right ?
Folks ? I 'm sure I was n't the only heartbroken Civ player here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And then you got a blue screen of death just prior to world domination.
Am I right?
Folks? I'm sure I wasn't the only heartbroken Civ player here.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845917</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29847147</id>
	<title>Re:Non issue</title>
	<author>YouWantFriesWithThat</author>
	<datestamp>1256318520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>oh god, man.  you should have put a warning label on that link.  it took me 4 hours to get back to this tab!</htmltext>
<tokenext>oh god , man .
you should have put a warning label on that link .
it took me 4 hours to get back to this tab !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>oh god, man.
you should have put a warning label on that link.
it took me 4 hours to get back to this tab!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843537</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845887</id>
	<title>Re:Where is the news?</title>
	<author>interploy</author>
	<datestamp>1256311800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Don't forget books. Writers have been doing this well before video games or movies. History has provided a rich source of narrative in general, video games are just the newest medium. I'm sure when virtual reality develops into something mainstream, we'll be able to fight alongside a realistic Ulysses S. Grant just as readily as fighting a space alien super Hitler. And then someone will write a story asking if its okay for virtual reality simulations to take such liberties. Can we get some real news please?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't forget books .
Writers have been doing this well before video games or movies .
History has provided a rich source of narrative in general , video games are just the newest medium .
I 'm sure when virtual reality develops into something mainstream , we 'll be able to fight alongside a realistic Ulysses S. Grant just as readily as fighting a space alien super Hitler .
And then someone will write a story asking if its okay for virtual reality simulations to take such liberties .
Can we get some real news please ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't forget books.
Writers have been doing this well before video games or movies.
History has provided a rich source of narrative in general, video games are just the newest medium.
I'm sure when virtual reality develops into something mainstream, we'll be able to fight alongside a realistic Ulysses S. Grant just as readily as fighting a space alien super Hitler.
And then someone will write a story asking if its okay for virtual reality simulations to take such liberties.
Can we get some real news please?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843315</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29849325</id>
	<title>Video Games and The Contingency of the Past</title>
	<author>midimastah</author>
	<datestamp>1256326500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There have been some good points raised about history being more than narrative that I would like to weigh in on. As a Ph.D student in history, I have thought about the fascinating possibilities of using video games as teaching tools, for video games, especially complex non-linear ones such as Grand Theft Auto and others, tend to emphasize a sense of contingency: that choices are are made for many different and often personal reasons, and that unexpected consequences result. World of Warcraft and other MMOs have gone even farther in this direction. Contingency is one of the most important facets of history that I try and emphasize with my students: that narration is just a tool to help us understand events, but when it comes down to it determining causality is an extremely difficult enterprise in which a multitude of factors need to be considered when considering human actors. I, unlike some, do not want to completely discard narrative or to give up on determining causality; for me, the ultimate project is to humanize the past, to get down to the individual level, beyond crude economic determinism and hollow constructs. I haven't worked it out completely, but basic parameters such as being able to experience an event from multiple perspectives on replays, having the subject be able to make choices within the parameters of available evidence, and not having endings predetermined would go a long way towards furthering the project of understanding the past not as a series of inevitable events, but as complex human stories.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There have been some good points raised about history being more than narrative that I would like to weigh in on .
As a Ph.D student in history , I have thought about the fascinating possibilities of using video games as teaching tools , for video games , especially complex non-linear ones such as Grand Theft Auto and others , tend to emphasize a sense of contingency : that choices are are made for many different and often personal reasons , and that unexpected consequences result .
World of Warcraft and other MMOs have gone even farther in this direction .
Contingency is one of the most important facets of history that I try and emphasize with my students : that narration is just a tool to help us understand events , but when it comes down to it determining causality is an extremely difficult enterprise in which a multitude of factors need to be considered when considering human actors .
I , unlike some , do not want to completely discard narrative or to give up on determining causality ; for me , the ultimate project is to humanize the past , to get down to the individual level , beyond crude economic determinism and hollow constructs .
I have n't worked it out completely , but basic parameters such as being able to experience an event from multiple perspectives on replays , having the subject be able to make choices within the parameters of available evidence , and not having endings predetermined would go a long way towards furthering the project of understanding the past not as a series of inevitable events , but as complex human stories .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There have been some good points raised about history being more than narrative that I would like to weigh in on.
As a Ph.D student in history, I have thought about the fascinating possibilities of using video games as teaching tools, for video games, especially complex non-linear ones such as Grand Theft Auto and others, tend to emphasize a sense of contingency: that choices are are made for many different and often personal reasons, and that unexpected consequences result.
World of Warcraft and other MMOs have gone even farther in this direction.
Contingency is one of the most important facets of history that I try and emphasize with my students: that narration is just a tool to help us understand events, but when it comes down to it determining causality is an extremely difficult enterprise in which a multitude of factors need to be considered when considering human actors.
I, unlike some, do not want to completely discard narrative or to give up on determining causality; for me, the ultimate project is to humanize the past, to get down to the individual level, beyond crude economic determinism and hollow constructs.
I haven't worked it out completely, but basic parameters such as being able to experience an event from multiple perspectives on replays, having the subject be able to make choices within the parameters of available evidence, and not having endings predetermined would go a long way towards furthering the project of understanding the past not as a series of inevitable events, but as complex human stories.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845367</id>
	<title>Re:What do we really know about history, anyway?</title>
	<author>Chonnawonga</author>
	<datestamp>1256309220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You haven't got your facts wrong, just your understanding of history. The past isn't just a series of flashy events. For the past fifty years or so, the academic discipline has got its shit together and realized that 98\% of the past is just people living their lives and trying to get by, and that that's actually interesting and important. And we can get at past realities through all sorts of documents: not just people writing down "I think this, and tomorrow I'll do that" but police and court records, censuses, farm account books, notarial records, churches' baptism/marriage/funeral records, and on and on.</p><p>There are facts about the past and historians do work hard to figure them out. It's not just a case of he said/she said. Now, whether those facts belong in video games is another question entirely.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You have n't got your facts wrong , just your understanding of history .
The past is n't just a series of flashy events .
For the past fifty years or so , the academic discipline has got its shit together and realized that 98 \ % of the past is just people living their lives and trying to get by , and that that 's actually interesting and important .
And we can get at past realities through all sorts of documents : not just people writing down " I think this , and tomorrow I 'll do that " but police and court records , censuses , farm account books , notarial records , churches ' baptism/marriage/funeral records , and on and on.There are facts about the past and historians do work hard to figure them out .
It 's not just a case of he said/she said .
Now , whether those facts belong in video games is another question entirely .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You haven't got your facts wrong, just your understanding of history.
The past isn't just a series of flashy events.
For the past fifty years or so, the academic discipline has got its shit together and realized that 98\% of the past is just people living their lives and trying to get by, and that that's actually interesting and important.
And we can get at past realities through all sorts of documents: not just people writing down "I think this, and tomorrow I'll do that" but police and court records, censuses, farm account books, notarial records, churches' baptism/marriage/funeral records, and on and on.There are facts about the past and historians do work hard to figure them out.
It's not just a case of he said/she said.
Now, whether those facts belong in video games is another question entirely.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843379</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29846917</id>
	<title>Re:History is just a conveniently premade "world"</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1256317320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>For some reason, most history classes ignores this part, and zooms in on meaningless facts (such as dates) and the teachers almost never are concerned context, or the greater lessons learned, etc.</i></p><p>Are you referring to high school history class? Because the required undergrad history class I took didn't focus on dates and so forth, but the social implications of that history. <a href="http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/Allen/Cover.html" title="virginia.edu">Here</a> [virginia.edu] is one of the textbooks for the class I had to take; I still have the paperback version.</p><p><i>I had one excellent history professor, he lambasted the history channel for their distortions and mistakes.</i></p><p>Well, I was in college before the History Channel existed, maybe college profs are acting more like HS teachers these days. However, in the US public school system, you seldom have historians teaching history, although in a university setting you always do. I haven't noticed any distortions in the history channel; but then, I'm no historian, but their accounts of events that happened in my lifetime seem accurate, and they do always have historians and other experts telling the history, almost always someone teaching or researching at a university.</p><p>I was amazed the other night when they were talking about extreme aircraft, the were talking about the SR-71. I was stationed at Beale in 1974-5 and they didn't get any of that wrong, and even said some stuff I thought was still secret (apparently not).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For some reason , most history classes ignores this part , and zooms in on meaningless facts ( such as dates ) and the teachers almost never are concerned context , or the greater lessons learned , etc.Are you referring to high school history class ?
Because the required undergrad history class I took did n't focus on dates and so forth , but the social implications of that history .
Here [ virginia.edu ] is one of the textbooks for the class I had to take ; I still have the paperback version.I had one excellent history professor , he lambasted the history channel for their distortions and mistakes.Well , I was in college before the History Channel existed , maybe college profs are acting more like HS teachers these days .
However , in the US public school system , you seldom have historians teaching history , although in a university setting you always do .
I have n't noticed any distortions in the history channel ; but then , I 'm no historian , but their accounts of events that happened in my lifetime seem accurate , and they do always have historians and other experts telling the history , almost always someone teaching or researching at a university.I was amazed the other night when they were talking about extreme aircraft , the were talking about the SR-71 .
I was stationed at Beale in 1974-5 and they did n't get any of that wrong , and even said some stuff I thought was still secret ( apparently not ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For some reason, most history classes ignores this part, and zooms in on meaningless facts (such as dates) and the teachers almost never are concerned context, or the greater lessons learned, etc.Are you referring to high school history class?
Because the required undergrad history class I took didn't focus on dates and so forth, but the social implications of that history.
Here [virginia.edu] is one of the textbooks for the class I had to take; I still have the paperback version.I had one excellent history professor, he lambasted the history channel for their distortions and mistakes.Well, I was in college before the History Channel existed, maybe college profs are acting more like HS teachers these days.
However, in the US public school system, you seldom have historians teaching history, although in a university setting you always do.
I haven't noticed any distortions in the history channel; but then, I'm no historian, but their accounts of events that happened in my lifetime seem accurate, and they do always have historians and other experts telling the history, almost always someone teaching or researching at a university.I was amazed the other night when they were talking about extreme aircraft, the were talking about the SR-71.
I was stationed at Beale in 1974-5 and they didn't get any of that wrong, and even said some stuff I thought was still secret (apparently not).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843387</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29844725</id>
	<title>Re:Where is the news?</title>
	<author>The Grim Reefer2</author>
	<datestamp>1256304780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Indeed! For instance, did you know that the Spartans actually spoke Doric Greek?</p><p>There was no "Madness? <b>THIS IS SPARTA!</b>"</p></div><p>As I recall from school the Spartans told them to "Dig it out yourselves" when they tossed the Persian envoy into the well. This was in reference to their demand for earth and water.  Obviously this was the English translation. The Athenians did not surrender either. They threw the Persians in a pit after putting them on trial.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Indeed !
For instance , did you know that the Spartans actually spoke Doric Greek ? There was no " Madness ?
THIS IS SPARTA !
" As I recall from school the Spartans told them to " Dig it out yourselves " when they tossed the Persian envoy into the well .
This was in reference to their demand for earth and water .
Obviously this was the English translation .
The Athenians did not surrender either .
They threw the Persians in a pit after putting them on trial .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Indeed!
For instance, did you know that the Spartans actually spoke Doric Greek?There was no "Madness?
THIS IS SPARTA!
"As I recall from school the Spartans told them to "Dig it out yourselves" when they tossed the Persian envoy into the well.
This was in reference to their demand for earth and water.
Obviously this was the English translation.
The Athenians did not surrender either.
They threw the Persians in a pit after putting them on trial.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843709</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29854041</id>
	<title>Re:not many use it substantively, though</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256315940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a <a href="http://www.longbowgames.com/" title="longbowgames.com" rel="nofollow">developer</a> [longbowgames.com] of historical wargames i'd argue there are some very good historical titles out there that offer more than just historical window dressing. Games like the age of empires series might have been fairly shallow but there's a lot of good history in deeper titles like europa universalis. check out paradox or matrix games for many good examples of historical games.</p><p>Addressing the difficulty of developing historical games: from our own experience developing an <a href="http://www.longbowgames.com/hegemony" title="longbowgames.com" rel="nofollow">ancient greek wargame</a> [longbowgames.com] real events never fit perfectly into any game mechanic but its not necessarily difficult to isolate a few key components of a time or place and create a compelling, educational and marketable experience out of them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a developer [ longbowgames.com ] of historical wargames i 'd argue there are some very good historical titles out there that offer more than just historical window dressing .
Games like the age of empires series might have been fairly shallow but there 's a lot of good history in deeper titles like europa universalis .
check out paradox or matrix games for many good examples of historical games.Addressing the difficulty of developing historical games : from our own experience developing an ancient greek wargame [ longbowgames.com ] real events never fit perfectly into any game mechanic but its not necessarily difficult to isolate a few key components of a time or place and create a compelling , educational and marketable experience out of them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a developer [longbowgames.com] of historical wargames i'd argue there are some very good historical titles out there that offer more than just historical window dressing.
Games like the age of empires series might have been fairly shallow but there's a lot of good history in deeper titles like europa universalis.
check out paradox or matrix games for many good examples of historical games.Addressing the difficulty of developing historical games: from our own experience developing an ancient greek wargame [longbowgames.com] real events never fit perfectly into any game mechanic but its not necessarily difficult to isolate a few key components of a time or place and create a compelling, educational and marketable experience out of them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843367</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843529</id>
	<title>No kidding</title>
	<author>Sycraft-fu</author>
	<datestamp>1256288520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Only way I'd have problems with it is if the game presented itself as supposedly realistic and accurate to be used for teaching a given subject. Ok, well in that case it'd better be accurate. However for normal, just for fun games? Nope, don't care.</p><p>To the extent they use history, it is mostly just as a general setting. Take a game like Rome Total War. Nobody, including the developer, is claiming that this is the way Roman history went. Hell, for it to be 100\% accurate it couldn't be interactive since you could change history. They just figured the time surrounding the Roman transition from republic to empire was an interesting one for a game. Gave them a setting to work with interesting background story, various factions, a map, etc. Within that framework a game could then be written.</p><p>It is no different than games based on fiction. For example the myriad of D&amp;D games out there. Very few of them seek to implement a pen and paper campaign faithfully. Rather they simply use the universe as a convenient setting, and the rules as a convenient set. Makes for less stuff you have to write from scratch. Like a hierarchy of gods. Rather than having to come up with a new one, you've got one already. You can then use or not use the various ones in the game as you see fit.</p><p>I don't see what the big deal is. Sometimes it is fun to come up with a totally new universe, however that takes a lot of work if you are going to make it interesting and convincing. Sometimes it is fun to base things on other fiction, take their universe as a starting point and make your little expansion. However sometimes it is fun to use reality as a starting point. Take a scenario that happened in the real world and say "Well what if..." and run with it.</p><p>Same deal with Tom Clancey books/movies. They are based around our real world. The major actors tend to be the same, the technology tends to be the same, etc. However it isn't a story of what actually was, it is instead a story of what might have been, in a darker universe with more conflict. It is based on our reality, but is purely fiction. Thus while some things are "correct" there is plenty that is not because it didn't make a good story.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Only way I 'd have problems with it is if the game presented itself as supposedly realistic and accurate to be used for teaching a given subject .
Ok , well in that case it 'd better be accurate .
However for normal , just for fun games ?
Nope , do n't care.To the extent they use history , it is mostly just as a general setting .
Take a game like Rome Total War .
Nobody , including the developer , is claiming that this is the way Roman history went .
Hell , for it to be 100 \ % accurate it could n't be interactive since you could change history .
They just figured the time surrounding the Roman transition from republic to empire was an interesting one for a game .
Gave them a setting to work with interesting background story , various factions , a map , etc .
Within that framework a game could then be written.It is no different than games based on fiction .
For example the myriad of D&amp;D games out there .
Very few of them seek to implement a pen and paper campaign faithfully .
Rather they simply use the universe as a convenient setting , and the rules as a convenient set .
Makes for less stuff you have to write from scratch .
Like a hierarchy of gods .
Rather than having to come up with a new one , you 've got one already .
You can then use or not use the various ones in the game as you see fit.I do n't see what the big deal is .
Sometimes it is fun to come up with a totally new universe , however that takes a lot of work if you are going to make it interesting and convincing .
Sometimes it is fun to base things on other fiction , take their universe as a starting point and make your little expansion .
However sometimes it is fun to use reality as a starting point .
Take a scenario that happened in the real world and say " Well what if... " and run with it.Same deal with Tom Clancey books/movies .
They are based around our real world .
The major actors tend to be the same , the technology tends to be the same , etc .
However it is n't a story of what actually was , it is instead a story of what might have been , in a darker universe with more conflict .
It is based on our reality , but is purely fiction .
Thus while some things are " correct " there is plenty that is not because it did n't make a good story .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only way I'd have problems with it is if the game presented itself as supposedly realistic and accurate to be used for teaching a given subject.
Ok, well in that case it'd better be accurate.
However for normal, just for fun games?
Nope, don't care.To the extent they use history, it is mostly just as a general setting.
Take a game like Rome Total War.
Nobody, including the developer, is claiming that this is the way Roman history went.
Hell, for it to be 100\% accurate it couldn't be interactive since you could change history.
They just figured the time surrounding the Roman transition from republic to empire was an interesting one for a game.
Gave them a setting to work with interesting background story, various factions, a map, etc.
Within that framework a game could then be written.It is no different than games based on fiction.
For example the myriad of D&amp;D games out there.
Very few of them seek to implement a pen and paper campaign faithfully.
Rather they simply use the universe as a convenient setting, and the rules as a convenient set.
Makes for less stuff you have to write from scratch.
Like a hierarchy of gods.
Rather than having to come up with a new one, you've got one already.
You can then use or not use the various ones in the game as you see fit.I don't see what the big deal is.
Sometimes it is fun to come up with a totally new universe, however that takes a lot of work if you are going to make it interesting and convincing.
Sometimes it is fun to base things on other fiction, take their universe as a starting point and make your little expansion.
However sometimes it is fun to use reality as a starting point.
Take a scenario that happened in the real world and say "Well what if..." and run with it.Same deal with Tom Clancey books/movies.
They are based around our real world.
The major actors tend to be the same, the technology tends to be the same, etc.
However it isn't a story of what actually was, it is instead a story of what might have been, in a darker universe with more conflict.
It is based on our reality, but is purely fiction.
Thus while some things are "correct" there is plenty that is not because it didn't make a good story.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843325</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29844411</id>
	<title>Re:Games are like books.</title>
	<author>sowth</author>
	<datestamp>1256301960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For Hollywood, a game is 10\% (or less) gameplay, 90\% visuals, screw everything else. Is there any surprise they don't go for historical accuracy? It is like being shocked finding out strippers didn't graduate from some Ivy League style dance school.

</p><p>They ruined movies by turning it into only action / adventure, romantic comedy, or kiddie show as a choice. Now games are mostly FPS crap with some RPG and RTS thrown in for good measure. Historical accuracy is only one small loss in a massive sea of crapulance. It's like they are trying to race to see who can make the next ET sequel.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For Hollywood , a game is 10 \ % ( or less ) gameplay , 90 \ % visuals , screw everything else .
Is there any surprise they do n't go for historical accuracy ?
It is like being shocked finding out strippers did n't graduate from some Ivy League style dance school .
They ruined movies by turning it into only action / adventure , romantic comedy , or kiddie show as a choice .
Now games are mostly FPS crap with some RPG and RTS thrown in for good measure .
Historical accuracy is only one small loss in a massive sea of crapulance .
It 's like they are trying to race to see who can make the next ET sequel .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For Hollywood, a game is 10\% (or less) gameplay, 90\% visuals, screw everything else.
Is there any surprise they don't go for historical accuracy?
It is like being shocked finding out strippers didn't graduate from some Ivy League style dance school.
They ruined movies by turning it into only action / adventure, romantic comedy, or kiddie show as a choice.
Now games are mostly FPS crap with some RPG and RTS thrown in for good measure.
Historical accuracy is only one small loss in a massive sea of crapulance.
It's like they are trying to race to see who can make the next ET sequel.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843705</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845079</id>
	<title>Re:It honestly is just which politics you are...</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1256307060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So, Jack Thompson is a Nazi? Um, I'm having a hard time coming up with a good argument against that characterizatiion.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So , Jack Thompson is a Nazi ?
Um , I 'm having a hard time coming up with a good argument against that characterizatiion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, Jack Thompson is a Nazi?
Um, I'm having a hard time coming up with a good argument against that characterizatiion.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843311</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845747</id>
	<title>Re:Hmph</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256311200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Polish submarine is a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orze\%C5\%82" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">completely different story</a> [wikipedia.org].</p><p>GP is right in this sense that commercial version of Enigma was in posession of Poles even before the 1939</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Polish submarine is a completely different story [ wikipedia.org ] .GP is right in this sense that commercial version of Enigma was in posession of Poles even before the 1939</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Polish submarine is a completely different story [wikipedia.org].GP is right in this sense that commercial version of Enigma was in posession of Poles even before the 1939</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843891</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843483</id>
	<title>history in games that can teach</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256330880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Its one thing to have a game which claims to have a historically accurate environment such as Assassins Creed.</p><p>Its another thing to have a game that can teach people history.</p><p>Examples i can think of are the Caesar games and its derivatives, basically a Roman simcity would be good for teaching children about Roman daily life.</p><p>Paradox games, particularly Europa Universalis 2 which although not being as good a game as EU3 included a lot more events occurring on actual dates such as civil wars.</p><p>Hearts of Iron 1 and 2 with the C.O.R.E mod including events such as the Sudetenland crisis. (Though they deliberately avoid reference to things such as the holocaust and Stalin's purges. I don't find the concept of terror bombing a civilian populace be it Dresden or Manchester quite as confronting as in game reasons to favour building concentration camps or Stalag would be.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Its one thing to have a game which claims to have a historically accurate environment such as Assassins Creed.Its another thing to have a game that can teach people history.Examples i can think of are the Caesar games and its derivatives , basically a Roman simcity would be good for teaching children about Roman daily life.Paradox games , particularly Europa Universalis 2 which although not being as good a game as EU3 included a lot more events occurring on actual dates such as civil wars.Hearts of Iron 1 and 2 with the C.O.R.E mod including events such as the Sudetenland crisis .
( Though they deliberately avoid reference to things such as the holocaust and Stalin 's purges .
I do n't find the concept of terror bombing a civilian populace be it Dresden or Manchester quite as confronting as in game reasons to favour building concentration camps or Stalag would be .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Its one thing to have a game which claims to have a historically accurate environment such as Assassins Creed.Its another thing to have a game that can teach people history.Examples i can think of are the Caesar games and its derivatives, basically a Roman simcity would be good for teaching children about Roman daily life.Paradox games, particularly Europa Universalis 2 which although not being as good a game as EU3 included a lot more events occurring on actual dates such as civil wars.Hearts of Iron 1 and 2 with the C.O.R.E mod including events such as the Sudetenland crisis.
(Though they deliberately avoid reference to things such as the holocaust and Stalin's purges.
I don't find the concept of terror bombing a civilian populace be it Dresden or Manchester quite as confronting as in game reasons to favour building concentration camps or Stalag would be.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29847065</id>
	<title>Re:I Learned All My History from Civ2</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1256318160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh boy. Civ 1 and 2 were still fun, because it was so simple to hack them. With nearly no programming knowledge (back then), we nearly completely changed the intro and texts in Civ 1.<br>- We made the creation of the universe a story of a guy who tripped over a stone, hit his head, and in that delirium invented the universe(TM).<br>- All the nations were several fringe groups, with no respect to any political correctness. Nazis, Jews, Niggas (what you would now call black trash), (what you would now call) White Trash, Turks (the number one foreigners in Germany), etc, etc.  (No racism here, we treated all groups equally bad. ^^)<br>- Diplomatics consisted of tricking others into destruction. Like when you had to choose whether to start a war with someone. The two choices given, were "Yes" and "Yes *". (No, "*" does not nessecairly imply that it meant "No")<br>- Battles were really weird, as all properties were strongly changed (ability to move over water, number of units it could transport, ability to launch nukes, number of steps to walk, etc).<br>- We had settlers that could move halfway across the map, over water, transport 16 units, and launch nukes in foreign cities. ^^<br>- Etc.</p><p>With Python being the scripting language in Civ 2, and all content being available, one could go totally crazy, and create alien worlds, on the level of Douglas Adams + Monthy Pythons + H.P. Lovecraft, etc.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>From that, I learned, how important it is, to allow very free, but also simple modifications of your games. Yes, you can expect 13 year old children to play with Python and configuration files, when they have no prior experience with such things. We knew a bit about math, and the concepts of expressions and "lists of commands" were obvious to us. So we played with it. Like with Lego. In fact there is not much difference. Just don't expect that from girls. It's simply no fun for them. (Add social functions, to offer them more fun.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh boy .
Civ 1 and 2 were still fun , because it was so simple to hack them .
With nearly no programming knowledge ( back then ) , we nearly completely changed the intro and texts in Civ 1.- We made the creation of the universe a story of a guy who tripped over a stone , hit his head , and in that delirium invented the universe ( TM ) .- All the nations were several fringe groups , with no respect to any political correctness .
Nazis , Jews , Niggas ( what you would now call black trash ) , ( what you would now call ) White Trash , Turks ( the number one foreigners in Germany ) , etc , etc .
( No racism here , we treated all groups equally bad .
^ ^ ) - Diplomatics consisted of tricking others into destruction .
Like when you had to choose whether to start a war with someone .
The two choices given , were " Yes " and " Yes * " .
( No , " * " does not nessecairly imply that it meant " No " ) - Battles were really weird , as all properties were strongly changed ( ability to move over water , number of units it could transport , ability to launch nukes , number of steps to walk , etc ) .- We had settlers that could move halfway across the map , over water , transport 16 units , and launch nukes in foreign cities .
^ ^ - Etc.With Python being the scripting language in Civ 2 , and all content being available , one could go totally crazy , and create alien worlds , on the level of Douglas Adams + Monthy Pythons + H.P .
Lovecraft , etc .
: ) From that , I learned , how important it is , to allow very free , but also simple modifications of your games .
Yes , you can expect 13 year old children to play with Python and configuration files , when they have no prior experience with such things .
We knew a bit about math , and the concepts of expressions and " lists of commands " were obvious to us .
So we played with it .
Like with Lego .
In fact there is not much difference .
Just do n't expect that from girls .
It 's simply no fun for them .
( Add social functions , to offer them more fun .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh boy.
Civ 1 and 2 were still fun, because it was so simple to hack them.
With nearly no programming knowledge (back then), we nearly completely changed the intro and texts in Civ 1.- We made the creation of the universe a story of a guy who tripped over a stone, hit his head, and in that delirium invented the universe(TM).- All the nations were several fringe groups, with no respect to any political correctness.
Nazis, Jews, Niggas (what you would now call black trash), (what you would now call) White Trash, Turks (the number one foreigners in Germany), etc, etc.
(No racism here, we treated all groups equally bad.
^^)- Diplomatics consisted of tricking others into destruction.
Like when you had to choose whether to start a war with someone.
The two choices given, were "Yes" and "Yes *".
(No, "*" does not nessecairly imply that it meant "No")- Battles were really weird, as all properties were strongly changed (ability to move over water, number of units it could transport, ability to launch nukes, number of steps to walk, etc).- We had settlers that could move halfway across the map, over water, transport 16 units, and launch nukes in foreign cities.
^^- Etc.With Python being the scripting language in Civ 2, and all content being available, one could go totally crazy, and create alien worlds, on the level of Douglas Adams + Monthy Pythons + H.P.
Lovecraft, etc.
:)From that, I learned, how important it is, to allow very free, but also simple modifications of your games.
Yes, you can expect 13 year old children to play with Python and configuration files, when they have no prior experience with such things.
We knew a bit about math, and the concepts of expressions and "lists of commands" were obvious to us.
So we played with it.
Like with Lego.
In fact there is not much difference.
Just don't expect that from girls.
It's simply no fun for them.
(Add social functions, to offer them more fun.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845917</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843367</id>
	<title>not many use it substantively, though</title>
	<author>Trepidity</author>
	<datestamp>1256328960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Even games that have accurate summarizations of history in their story rarely use it to much good effect beyond a sort of flavorful seasoning. It's not really playable history that makes you think about it, in the way good historical fiction helps you understand and imagine aspects of history. If anything, the use of history in educational games like Oregon Trail is the closest to that, and even there it's a little superficial. (The article does correctly point out that <i>alternate history</i> has been dealt with pretty well in games... but oddly, real history, not so much.)</p><p>We do, for whatever reason, have that more with current events to some extent. In the mid-1980s, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris\_Crawford\_(game\_designer)" title="wikipedia.org">Chris Crawford</a> [wikipedia.org] released the excellent <i>Balance of Power</i>, which attempted to use gameplay to <a href="http://www.erasmatazz.com/library/Balance\%20of\%20Power.txt" title="erasmatazz.com">interactively illustrate</a> [erasmatazz.com] some aspects of the Cold War. More recently, there's been a flurry of interest in "newsgames" and <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262026147?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=abxxm-20&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=0262026147" title="amazon.com">"persuasive games"</a> [amazon.com], using games as a sort of editorial-cartoon-style take on smallish current issues, like <a href="http://www.shockwave.com/gamelanding/bacteriasalad.jsp" title="shockwave.com">tainted spinach outbreaks</a> [shockwave.com].</p><p>But where's playable history in any real fashion? It doesn't have to be pedantically boring, designed by Professors of Roman History to illustrate some sort of minutiae of interest to their field. Even semi-accurate, dramatized history of the History Channel variety would be interesting if it were playable in some significant sense, not just "you're playing an RTS that has Roman legions as units". Or something as good as the alternate-history games, but with actual history. Lack of interest? Too hard to figure out how to make it work? I mean this as a serious question, fwiw, not as berating game designers. It seems there's a lot of popular interest in at least some kinds of history, as evidenced by things like the History Channel, and yet in games we've gotten only really superficial elements. It may just be inherently impossible / really really hard, but somehow it seems to me that it ought to be doable.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Even games that have accurate summarizations of history in their story rarely use it to much good effect beyond a sort of flavorful seasoning .
It 's not really playable history that makes you think about it , in the way good historical fiction helps you understand and imagine aspects of history .
If anything , the use of history in educational games like Oregon Trail is the closest to that , and even there it 's a little superficial .
( The article does correctly point out that alternate history has been dealt with pretty well in games... but oddly , real history , not so much .
) We do , for whatever reason , have that more with current events to some extent .
In the mid-1980s , Chris Crawford [ wikipedia.org ] released the excellent Balance of Power , which attempted to use gameplay to interactively illustrate [ erasmatazz.com ] some aspects of the Cold War .
More recently , there 's been a flurry of interest in " newsgames " and " persuasive games " [ amazon.com ] , using games as a sort of editorial-cartoon-style take on smallish current issues , like tainted spinach outbreaks [ shockwave.com ] .But where 's playable history in any real fashion ?
It does n't have to be pedantically boring , designed by Professors of Roman History to illustrate some sort of minutiae of interest to their field .
Even semi-accurate , dramatized history of the History Channel variety would be interesting if it were playable in some significant sense , not just " you 're playing an RTS that has Roman legions as units " .
Or something as good as the alternate-history games , but with actual history .
Lack of interest ?
Too hard to figure out how to make it work ?
I mean this as a serious question , fwiw , not as berating game designers .
It seems there 's a lot of popular interest in at least some kinds of history , as evidenced by things like the History Channel , and yet in games we 've gotten only really superficial elements .
It may just be inherently impossible / really really hard , but somehow it seems to me that it ought to be doable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even games that have accurate summarizations of history in their story rarely use it to much good effect beyond a sort of flavorful seasoning.
It's not really playable history that makes you think about it, in the way good historical fiction helps you understand and imagine aspects of history.
If anything, the use of history in educational games like Oregon Trail is the closest to that, and even there it's a little superficial.
(The article does correctly point out that alternate history has been dealt with pretty well in games... but oddly, real history, not so much.
)We do, for whatever reason, have that more with current events to some extent.
In the mid-1980s, Chris Crawford [wikipedia.org] released the excellent Balance of Power, which attempted to use gameplay to interactively illustrate [erasmatazz.com] some aspects of the Cold War.
More recently, there's been a flurry of interest in "newsgames" and "persuasive games" [amazon.com], using games as a sort of editorial-cartoon-style take on smallish current issues, like tainted spinach outbreaks [shockwave.com].But where's playable history in any real fashion?
It doesn't have to be pedantically boring, designed by Professors of Roman History to illustrate some sort of minutiae of interest to their field.
Even semi-accurate, dramatized history of the History Channel variety would be interesting if it were playable in some significant sense, not just "you're playing an RTS that has Roman legions as units".
Or something as good as the alternate-history games, but with actual history.
Lack of interest?
Too hard to figure out how to make it work?
I mean this as a serious question, fwiw, not as berating game designers.
It seems there's a lot of popular interest in at least some kinds of history, as evidenced by things like the History Channel, and yet in games we've gotten only really superficial elements.
It may just be inherently impossible / really really hard, but somehow it seems to me that it ought to be doable.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29849019</id>
	<title>Re:What do we really know about history, anyway?</title>
	<author>jacob1984</author>
	<datestamp>1256325300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"...the historian is in no sense a free man. Of the past he knows only so much as the past is willing to yield to him." - Marc Bloch</htmltext>
<tokenext>" ...the historian is in no sense a free man .
Of the past he knows only so much as the past is willing to yield to him .
" - Marc Bloch</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"...the historian is in no sense a free man.
Of the past he knows only so much as the past is willing to yield to him.
" - Marc Bloch</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843379</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843393</id>
	<title>Re:It honestly is just which politics you are...</title>
	<author>mister\_playboy</author>
	<datestamp>1256329320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Actually, this tends to be a problem only in WWII FPS games.  Any WWII turn based strategy game I can think of will let you be Nazi Germany and kick some ass if you want to.  Germany had all sorts of crazy projects for tanks and planes during the war, and these are often included as usable units in later campaigns.</p><p>Such is the mystique of those "secret" Nazi weapons (a plot used in many movies) that even games picked up on it.  Iron Storm for Sega Saturn featured a battle between Germany and Japan over India as the final stage of the "victorious" campaign.  If you were playing as Japan, the AI Germans would have an extremely powerful UFO unit that would decimate other airplanes with frickin' lasers and had a decent cannon attack against ground units.  The game otherwise featured on realistic units, but the designers just wanted to stick that in there...</p><p>Unfortunately, if get to that stage as the Germans yourself, you don't get any UFO...</p><p>Anyway, I prefer to to have the choice to play any side... not just the "good guys".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , this tends to be a problem only in WWII FPS games .
Any WWII turn based strategy game I can think of will let you be Nazi Germany and kick some ass if you want to .
Germany had all sorts of crazy projects for tanks and planes during the war , and these are often included as usable units in later campaigns.Such is the mystique of those " secret " Nazi weapons ( a plot used in many movies ) that even games picked up on it .
Iron Storm for Sega Saturn featured a battle between Germany and Japan over India as the final stage of the " victorious " campaign .
If you were playing as Japan , the AI Germans would have an extremely powerful UFO unit that would decimate other airplanes with frickin ' lasers and had a decent cannon attack against ground units .
The game otherwise featured on realistic units , but the designers just wanted to stick that in there...Unfortunately , if get to that stage as the Germans yourself , you do n't get any UFO...Anyway , I prefer to to have the choice to play any side... not just the " good guys " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, this tends to be a problem only in WWII FPS games.
Any WWII turn based strategy game I can think of will let you be Nazi Germany and kick some ass if you want to.
Germany had all sorts of crazy projects for tanks and planes during the war, and these are often included as usable units in later campaigns.Such is the mystique of those "secret" Nazi weapons (a plot used in many movies) that even games picked up on it.
Iron Storm for Sega Saturn featured a battle between Germany and Japan over India as the final stage of the "victorious" campaign.
If you were playing as Japan, the AI Germans would have an extremely powerful UFO unit that would decimate other airplanes with frickin' lasers and had a decent cannon attack against ground units.
The game otherwise featured on realistic units, but the designers just wanted to stick that in there...Unfortunately, if get to that stage as the Germans yourself, you don't get any UFO...Anyway, I prefer to to have the choice to play any side... not just the "good guys".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843311</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29844123</id>
	<title>Re:It honestly is just which politics you are...</title>
	<author>tomatensaft</author>
	<datestamp>1256298300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are some very good games, where Germans actually have a lot of superiority in numbers and weapons. Example: "Theatre of War 2: Africa 1943".</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are some very good games , where Germans actually have a lot of superiority in numbers and weapons .
Example : " Theatre of War 2 : Africa 1943 " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are some very good games, where Germans actually have a lot of superiority in numbers and weapons.
Example: "Theatre of War 2: Africa 1943".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843311</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843509</id>
	<title>Historians talk about history very differently</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256331300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The idea that history is "factual" rather than a rolling series of arguments is both interesting and amusing.</p><p>I wonder, with what vehemence, slashdotters would react if historians of science and technology ceased reporting on the human practice of science, and began advising on code design?</p><p>"Games have utilized historical narrative extensively, but to what extent does the platform take liberties with, and perhaps misuse it."</p><p>Mainstream media rarely depicts the historian's conception of history as currently practiced.  At best it is Whig history (telling history to create moral lessons for today).  At worst it is a fantasy purporting to a relationship with reality.  Do you really expect games to speak into the complex construction of self-identity?  The formation of power within classes leading to social conflict?  The institutional factors behind the limits of political decision making within and between states?  Or the emergence of sub-altern narratives (the utterly voiceless repressed) through careful emergence of non-standard documentary traditions?</p><p>At best your demand is Grognard: that the belt-buckles are accurate and that Division X was not in Location Y.  If you truely want to look at games serving history, look up Stalin, a three turn economy simulator designed to test Stalin / Trotsky / Bukharinite debates about preventable deaths.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The idea that history is " factual " rather than a rolling series of arguments is both interesting and amusing.I wonder , with what vehemence , slashdotters would react if historians of science and technology ceased reporting on the human practice of science , and began advising on code design ?
" Games have utilized historical narrative extensively , but to what extent does the platform take liberties with , and perhaps misuse it .
" Mainstream media rarely depicts the historian 's conception of history as currently practiced .
At best it is Whig history ( telling history to create moral lessons for today ) .
At worst it is a fantasy purporting to a relationship with reality .
Do you really expect games to speak into the complex construction of self-identity ?
The formation of power within classes leading to social conflict ?
The institutional factors behind the limits of political decision making within and between states ?
Or the emergence of sub-altern narratives ( the utterly voiceless repressed ) through careful emergence of non-standard documentary traditions ? At best your demand is Grognard : that the belt-buckles are accurate and that Division X was not in Location Y. If you truely want to look at games serving history , look up Stalin , a three turn economy simulator designed to test Stalin / Trotsky / Bukharinite debates about preventable deaths .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The idea that history is "factual" rather than a rolling series of arguments is both interesting and amusing.I wonder, with what vehemence, slashdotters would react if historians of science and technology ceased reporting on the human practice of science, and began advising on code design?
"Games have utilized historical narrative extensively, but to what extent does the platform take liberties with, and perhaps misuse it.
"Mainstream media rarely depicts the historian's conception of history as currently practiced.
At best it is Whig history (telling history to create moral lessons for today).
At worst it is a fantasy purporting to a relationship with reality.
Do you really expect games to speak into the complex construction of self-identity?
The formation of power within classes leading to social conflict?
The institutional factors behind the limits of political decision making within and between states?
Or the emergence of sub-altern narratives (the utterly voiceless repressed) through careful emergence of non-standard documentary traditions?At best your demand is Grognard: that the belt-buckles are accurate and that Division X was not in Location Y.  If you truely want to look at games serving history, look up Stalin, a three turn economy simulator designed to test Stalin / Trotsky / Bukharinite debates about preventable deaths.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843705</id>
	<title>Games are like books.</title>
	<author>Tei</author>
	<datestamp>1256291760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are history books,  books loselly based in history, totally wild interpretations (like 300).<br>There are history games (like wargames),  books loselly based in history (typical shooter in Omaha beach), totally wild interpretations...</p><p>Narrative is just a element in gamming. Like textures, fonts, GUI, models,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and Gameplay.  Gameplay is probably the 50\% of a game, a 40\% is visuals, and the other 10\% is everything else.  Theres only two type of games where history/narrative is really important for a game: wargames and educatives games.  All other games are mostly narrative lights (Quake), or self-narrative-creators (Sim City), or worlds (Morrowind),<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><p>I am getting old, and I really appreciate games that build some credible characters and history (like L4D). But videogames are a superset and narrative is a subset.  You can do much more than just narrating something.  We can talk, or we can walk. Games can do both,... and more. Books are limited, games are not.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are history books , books loselly based in history , totally wild interpretations ( like 300 ) .There are history games ( like wargames ) , books loselly based in history ( typical shooter in Omaha beach ) , totally wild interpretations...Narrative is just a element in gamming .
Like textures , fonts , GUI , models , ... and Gameplay .
Gameplay is probably the 50 \ % of a game , a 40 \ % is visuals , and the other 10 \ % is everything else .
Theres only two type of games where history/narrative is really important for a game : wargames and educatives games .
All other games are mostly narrative lights ( Quake ) , or self-narrative-creators ( Sim City ) , or worlds ( Morrowind ) , ...I am getting old , and I really appreciate games that build some credible characters and history ( like L4D ) .
But videogames are a superset and narrative is a subset .
You can do much more than just narrating something .
We can talk , or we can walk .
Games can do both,... and more .
Books are limited , games are not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are history books,  books loselly based in history, totally wild interpretations (like 300).There are history games (like wargames),  books loselly based in history (typical shooter in Omaha beach), totally wild interpretations...Narrative is just a element in gamming.
Like textures, fonts, GUI, models, ... and Gameplay.
Gameplay is probably the 50\% of a game, a 40\% is visuals, and the other 10\% is everything else.
Theres only two type of games where history/narrative is really important for a game: wargames and educatives games.
All other games are mostly narrative lights (Quake), or self-narrative-creators (Sim City), or worlds (Morrowind), ...I am getting old, and I really appreciate games that build some credible characters and history (like L4D).
But videogames are a superset and narrative is a subset.
You can do much more than just narrating something.
We can talk, or we can walk.
Games can do both,... and more.
Books are limited, games are not.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843453</id>
	<title>Winner history</title>
	<author>superFoieGras</author>
	<datestamp>1256330220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>History used to be made by the winners. Now it's made by the winners who hated history back in high school...</htmltext>
<tokenext>History used to be made by the winners .
Now it 's made by the winners who hated history back in high school.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>History used to be made by the winners.
Now it's made by the winners who hated history back in high school...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843745</id>
	<title>Re:What do we really know about history, anyway?</title>
	<author>rolfwind</author>
	<datestamp>1256292300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>What do we really know about history, anyway? You get different accounts of the same event by people who were actually there. Then, as the stories are propagated by those who weren't there, you get even more different stories. Eventually, things may be written down, and you may find evidence that fits with some stories but not others, but, in the end, what do we really know?</p></div></blockquote><p>This question isn't really constricted to history, but to reality in general.  Consider that were you an excellent world-reknown magician and decided to visit an extremely poor and superstitious 3rd world country with your act.  Of course, even if the audience would be completely truthful in their accounts, they only saw what you let them see, and for all intents and purposes, you could become the next biblical-like figure.</p><p>The truthful accounts would be wrong.  Then you have to add on the liars, bullshitters, and contrarians.  Even your staff may not have a full picture of what went on or how, they fill in some of the details with speculation that later gets debunked because some of it just isn't doable as they envisioned, as the only one who knows the trick inside and out is the magician.  That would make it seem the believers in the crowd are more accurate than the staff and their account is then passed on.  The magician himself stays silent.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What do we really know about history , anyway ?
You get different accounts of the same event by people who were actually there .
Then , as the stories are propagated by those who were n't there , you get even more different stories .
Eventually , things may be written down , and you may find evidence that fits with some stories but not others , but , in the end , what do we really know ? This question is n't really constricted to history , but to reality in general .
Consider that were you an excellent world-reknown magician and decided to visit an extremely poor and superstitious 3rd world country with your act .
Of course , even if the audience would be completely truthful in their accounts , they only saw what you let them see , and for all intents and purposes , you could become the next biblical-like figure.The truthful accounts would be wrong .
Then you have to add on the liars , bullshitters , and contrarians .
Even your staff may not have a full picture of what went on or how , they fill in some of the details with speculation that later gets debunked because some of it just is n't doable as they envisioned , as the only one who knows the trick inside and out is the magician .
That would make it seem the believers in the crowd are more accurate than the staff and their account is then passed on .
The magician himself stays silent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What do we really know about history, anyway?
You get different accounts of the same event by people who were actually there.
Then, as the stories are propagated by those who weren't there, you get even more different stories.
Eventually, things may be written down, and you may find evidence that fits with some stories but not others, but, in the end, what do we really know?This question isn't really constricted to history, but to reality in general.
Consider that were you an excellent world-reknown magician and decided to visit an extremely poor and superstitious 3rd world country with your act.
Of course, even if the audience would be completely truthful in their accounts, they only saw what you let them see, and for all intents and purposes, you could become the next biblical-like figure.The truthful accounts would be wrong.
Then you have to add on the liars, bullshitters, and contrarians.
Even your staff may not have a full picture of what went on or how, they fill in some of the details with speculation that later gets debunked because some of it just isn't doable as they envisioned, as the only one who knows the trick inside and out is the magician.
That would make it seem the believers in the crowd are more accurate than the staff and their account is then passed on.
The magician himself stays silent.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843379</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843443</id>
	<title>History in Movies</title>
	<author>Doshin</author>
	<datestamp>1256330100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Whether it's World War 2, the American Wild West or ancient Greece, history has long provided a rich source of movie narrative. Historical fact has been painstakingly preserved in some movies, yet distorted beyond all recognition in others. Whereas one movie may be praised for its depiction of history, others have been lambasted for opening fresh wounds or glorifying tragic events of our near past. Movies have utilized historical narrative extensively, but to what extent does the platform take liberties with, and perhaps misuse it?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Whether it 's World War 2 , the American Wild West or ancient Greece , history has long provided a rich source of movie narrative .
Historical fact has been painstakingly preserved in some movies , yet distorted beyond all recognition in others .
Whereas one movie may be praised for its depiction of history , others have been lambasted for opening fresh wounds or glorifying tragic events of our near past .
Movies have utilized historical narrative extensively , but to what extent does the platform take liberties with , and perhaps misuse it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Whether it's World War 2, the American Wild West or ancient Greece, history has long provided a rich source of movie narrative.
Historical fact has been painstakingly preserved in some movies, yet distorted beyond all recognition in others.
Whereas one movie may be praised for its depiction of history, others have been lambasted for opening fresh wounds or glorifying tragic events of our near past.
Movies have utilized historical narrative extensively, but to what extent does the platform take liberties with, and perhaps misuse it?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29844343</id>
	<title>Re:What do we really know about history, anyway?</title>
	<author>cloudwilliam</author>
	<datestamp>1256301180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What do we really know about history, anyway? You get different accounts of the same event by people who were actually there. Then, as the stories are propagated by those who weren't there, you get even more different stories. Eventually, things may be written down, and you may find evidence that fits with some stories but not others, but, in the end, what do we really know?</p></div><p>Man, that's a depressing paragraph.  Sounds like you're writing that in a darkened room with walls painted black, while listening to the Cure.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What do we really know about history , anyway ?
You get different accounts of the same event by people who were actually there .
Then , as the stories are propagated by those who were n't there , you get even more different stories .
Eventually , things may be written down , and you may find evidence that fits with some stories but not others , but , in the end , what do we really know ? Man , that 's a depressing paragraph .
Sounds like you 're writing that in a darkened room with walls painted black , while listening to the Cure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What do we really know about history, anyway?
You get different accounts of the same event by people who were actually there.
Then, as the stories are propagated by those who weren't there, you get even more different stories.
Eventually, things may be written down, and you may find evidence that fits with some stories but not others, but, in the end, what do we really know?Man, that's a depressing paragraph.
Sounds like you're writing that in a darkened room with walls painted black, while listening to the Cure.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843379</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843379</id>
	<title>What do we really know about history, anyway?</title>
	<author>RAMMS+EIN</author>
	<datestamp>1256329080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What do we really know about history, anyway? You get different accounts of the same event by people who were actually there. Then, as the stories are propagated by those who weren't there, you get even more different stories. Eventually, things may be written down, and you may find evidence that fits with some stories but not others, but, in the end, what do we really know?</p><p>Even in cases where there is agreement among people who have actually studied a historic event, what people at large believe about it is usually based on parroting what they hear from others. So, what we "know", then, is not actually what historians believe actually happened. And even that is only a belief.</p><p>In that light, I see the more important aspects of games to be how much fun they are to play. Is the gameplay good? Is the experience immersive? Is the story believable enough? Feeling realistic and being in line with historic events (as applicable) is an important part of that, but I wouldn't say it is overwhelmingly important for games (it's different if you build a simulator for training, of course).</p><p>And let's face it: if we went for total realism, there wouldn't be any game to play. There would be only one way to proceed, and that would be the way it actually happened in real life. That's not a game, that's a movie - and a specific genre, quite apart from the big hit movies. So let's not be too tough on games that deviate from history a bit more than others, given that none can possibly give a completely accurate account, anyway.</p><p>On the other hand, if you are going to base your game on a historic event, you might as well faithfully depict the historic setting as we know it. Otherwise, what's the point? Unless you're making a parody, of course.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What do we really know about history , anyway ?
You get different accounts of the same event by people who were actually there .
Then , as the stories are propagated by those who were n't there , you get even more different stories .
Eventually , things may be written down , and you may find evidence that fits with some stories but not others , but , in the end , what do we really know ? Even in cases where there is agreement among people who have actually studied a historic event , what people at large believe about it is usually based on parroting what they hear from others .
So , what we " know " , then , is not actually what historians believe actually happened .
And even that is only a belief.In that light , I see the more important aspects of games to be how much fun they are to play .
Is the gameplay good ?
Is the experience immersive ?
Is the story believable enough ?
Feeling realistic and being in line with historic events ( as applicable ) is an important part of that , but I would n't say it is overwhelmingly important for games ( it 's different if you build a simulator for training , of course ) .And let 's face it : if we went for total realism , there would n't be any game to play .
There would be only one way to proceed , and that would be the way it actually happened in real life .
That 's not a game , that 's a movie - and a specific genre , quite apart from the big hit movies .
So let 's not be too tough on games that deviate from history a bit more than others , given that none can possibly give a completely accurate account , anyway.On the other hand , if you are going to base your game on a historic event , you might as well faithfully depict the historic setting as we know it .
Otherwise , what 's the point ?
Unless you 're making a parody , of course .
: - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What do we really know about history, anyway?
You get different accounts of the same event by people who were actually there.
Then, as the stories are propagated by those who weren't there, you get even more different stories.
Eventually, things may be written down, and you may find evidence that fits with some stories but not others, but, in the end, what do we really know?Even in cases where there is agreement among people who have actually studied a historic event, what people at large believe about it is usually based on parroting what they hear from others.
So, what we "know", then, is not actually what historians believe actually happened.
And even that is only a belief.In that light, I see the more important aspects of games to be how much fun they are to play.
Is the gameplay good?
Is the experience immersive?
Is the story believable enough?
Feeling realistic and being in line with historic events (as applicable) is an important part of that, but I wouldn't say it is overwhelmingly important for games (it's different if you build a simulator for training, of course).And let's face it: if we went for total realism, there wouldn't be any game to play.
There would be only one way to proceed, and that would be the way it actually happened in real life.
That's not a game, that's a movie - and a specific genre, quite apart from the big hit movies.
So let's not be too tough on games that deviate from history a bit more than others, given that none can possibly give a completely accurate account, anyway.On the other hand, if you are going to base your game on a historic event, you might as well faithfully depict the historic setting as we know it.
Otherwise, what's the point?
Unless you're making a parody, of course.
:-)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843537</id>
	<title>Re:Non issue</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256288760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It's a bloody video game. They have no obligation to you to be historically accurate,</p></div><p>Of course not. It's just that most players can't tell the <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic" title="tvtropes.org">difference</a> [tvtropes.org] between the realistic parts and the fiction.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's a bloody video game .
They have no obligation to you to be historically accurate,Of course not .
It 's just that most players ca n't tell the difference [ tvtropes.org ] between the realistic parts and the fiction .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's a bloody video game.
They have no obligation to you to be historically accurate,Of course not.
It's just that most players can't tell the difference [tvtropes.org] between the realistic parts and the fiction.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843325</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843715</id>
	<title>It's called historical fiction people....</title>
	<author>Eskarel</author>
	<datestamp>1256291880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>and it's a genre that's been alive in the literary world for far longer than computers or for that matter electricity have existed.<p>I know it's hard to imagine something has been done before computers, but setting a fictional account in a realistic historical setting is as old as the hills(with the Illiad being a likely example dating from as I recall about three thousand years ago in it's written form and probably substantially moreso in oral tradition).</p><p>As to the whole Army of 2, six days in fallujah thing. Army of 2 was a creepy and tasteless romp into mental illness with psychopaths wearing face masks high fiving in pools of blood, folks didn't like it for that more than for anything else, and making a game about a war which isn't over and which involves complex diplomatic issues(like the Iraq war where they hate us and we want them to like us) isn't exactly a great idea.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and it 's a genre that 's been alive in the literary world for far longer than computers or for that matter electricity have existed.I know it 's hard to imagine something has been done before computers , but setting a fictional account in a realistic historical setting is as old as the hills ( with the Illiad being a likely example dating from as I recall about three thousand years ago in it 's written form and probably substantially moreso in oral tradition ) .As to the whole Army of 2 , six days in fallujah thing .
Army of 2 was a creepy and tasteless romp into mental illness with psychopaths wearing face masks high fiving in pools of blood , folks did n't like it for that more than for anything else , and making a game about a war which is n't over and which involves complex diplomatic issues ( like the Iraq war where they hate us and we want them to like us ) is n't exactly a great idea .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and it's a genre that's been alive in the literary world for far longer than computers or for that matter electricity have existed.I know it's hard to imagine something has been done before computers, but setting a fictional account in a realistic historical setting is as old as the hills(with the Illiad being a likely example dating from as I recall about three thousand years ago in it's written form and probably substantially moreso in oral tradition).As to the whole Army of 2, six days in fallujah thing.
Army of 2 was a creepy and tasteless romp into mental illness with psychopaths wearing face masks high fiving in pools of blood, folks didn't like it for that more than for anything else, and making a game about a war which isn't over and which involves complex diplomatic issues(like the Iraq war where they hate us and we want them to like us) isn't exactly a great idea.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29853857</id>
	<title>Re:Non issue</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256312580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Then, instead, we should complain about people being stupid rather than the games making them stupid.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Then , instead , we should complain about people being stupid rather than the games making them stupid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then, instead, we should complain about people being stupid rather than the games making them stupid.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843537</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843671</id>
	<title>Re:Historians talk about history very differently</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256291280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>First of all, the full title "Stalin's Dilemma" is so so so much more googleable.  Second of all, it's not really THAT hard to provide the link, is it?  Copypasta of your 'Stalin, a three turn economy simulator' has it on lucky.
<br> <br>
<a href="http://playthisthing.com/stalins-dilemma" title="playthisthing.com" rel="nofollow">http://playthisthing.com/stalins-dilemma</a> [playthisthing.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>First of all , the full title " Stalin 's Dilemma " is so so so much more googleable .
Second of all , it 's not really THAT hard to provide the link , is it ?
Copypasta of your 'Stalin , a three turn economy simulator ' has it on lucky .
http : //playthisthing.com/stalins-dilemma [ playthisthing.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First of all, the full title "Stalin's Dilemma" is so so so much more googleable.
Second of all, it's not really THAT hard to provide the link, is it?
Copypasta of your 'Stalin, a three turn economy simulator' has it on lucky.
http://playthisthing.com/stalins-dilemma [playthisthing.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843509</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845793</id>
	<title>History is written by the historians</title>
	<author>relguj9</author>
	<datestamp>1256311380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>(Insert Historical Reference Here) have(has) utilized historical narrative extensively, but to what extent does(do) (Insert Historical Reference Here) take liberties with, and perhaps misuse it?<br> <br>

Really though, a game is just a freaking game, it's not a history book.  History books should be taken with a grain (perhaps a bushel) of salt anyways.<br> <br>

If you're not reading and/or in-taking information that you intend on using as fact critically then you're not reading and/or in-taking information that you intend on using as fact correctly.<br> <br>

Perception of misuse is a user error, or "I - d - 10 - T" as they say in the business.<br> <br>

If I want to believe that WWII consisted of one man gunning through hordes of nazi zombies in a series of boxes, then that's my own prerogative.</htmltext>
<tokenext>( Insert Historical Reference Here ) have ( has ) utilized historical narrative extensively , but to what extent does ( do ) ( Insert Historical Reference Here ) take liberties with , and perhaps misuse it ?
Really though , a game is just a freaking game , it 's not a history book .
History books should be taken with a grain ( perhaps a bushel ) of salt anyways .
If you 're not reading and/or in-taking information that you intend on using as fact critically then you 're not reading and/or in-taking information that you intend on using as fact correctly .
Perception of misuse is a user error , or " I - d - 10 - T " as they say in the business .
If I want to believe that WWII consisted of one man gunning through hordes of nazi zombies in a series of boxes , then that 's my own prerogative .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>(Insert Historical Reference Here) have(has) utilized historical narrative extensively, but to what extent does(do) (Insert Historical Reference Here) take liberties with, and perhaps misuse it?
Really though, a game is just a freaking game, it's not a history book.
History books should be taken with a grain (perhaps a bushel) of salt anyways.
If you're not reading and/or in-taking information that you intend on using as fact critically then you're not reading and/or in-taking information that you intend on using as fact correctly.
Perception of misuse is a user error, or "I - d - 10 - T" as they say in the business.
If I want to believe that WWII consisted of one man gunning through hordes of nazi zombies in a series of boxes, then that's my own prerogative.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29846797</id>
	<title>There are allways at least 2 versions of history.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256316720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Major versions  as written by the winners AND the losers (if any survive), minor versions rewritten by historians, politicians,folk singers lawyers, journalists and other phone sanitation type people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Major versions as written by the winners AND the losers ( if any survive ) , minor versions rewritten by historians , politicians,folk singers lawyers , journalists and other phone sanitation type people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Major versions  as written by the winners AND the losers (if any survive), minor versions rewritten by historians, politicians,folk singers lawyers, journalists and other phone sanitation type people.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29846633</id>
	<title>Re:not many use it substantively, though</title>
	<author>dschmit1</author>
	<datestamp>1256315940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>God, I love Oregon Trail.</htmltext>
<tokenext>God , I love Oregon Trail .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>God, I love Oregon Trail.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843367</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843387</id>
	<title>History is just a conveniently premade "world"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256329200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Where you don't have to pay royalties for the ideas.  In that sense, in video games, it plays the same role as a franchises such as Star Wars, Star Trek, Harry Potter, or Lord of the Rings.  Just as with history, with them you get major characters, direction of story (a plot), costumes, backdrop, and "feel".</p><p>Now, I know with anime, most games don't get 'canon' exactly correct.  Why should we expect they get history correct?  In the end, it's just attribute it to artistic license.</p><p>Moreover, the important part about the study of history isn't specific facts about narrow things, but the recognition of repeatable patterns due to human nature, and avoiding the same mistakes twice.  For some reason, most history classes ignores this part, and zooms in on meaningless facts (such as dates) and the teachers almost never are concerned context, or the greater lessons learned, etc.  The interpretation of most lessons is almost always left with the students, many of whom won't consider anything but memorizing the basic facts to pass the test.</p><p>I had one excellent history professor, he lambasted the history channel for their distortions and mistakes.  Why should we expect anything more out of a purely entertainment medium such video games than an (entertainment) TV channel supposedly dedicated to history?  The best lesson to learn here is simply not to believe everything you read, see, or what someone tells you to without verification.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Where you do n't have to pay royalties for the ideas .
In that sense , in video games , it plays the same role as a franchises such as Star Wars , Star Trek , Harry Potter , or Lord of the Rings .
Just as with history , with them you get major characters , direction of story ( a plot ) , costumes , backdrop , and " feel " .Now , I know with anime , most games do n't get 'canon ' exactly correct .
Why should we expect they get history correct ?
In the end , it 's just attribute it to artistic license.Moreover , the important part about the study of history is n't specific facts about narrow things , but the recognition of repeatable patterns due to human nature , and avoiding the same mistakes twice .
For some reason , most history classes ignores this part , and zooms in on meaningless facts ( such as dates ) and the teachers almost never are concerned context , or the greater lessons learned , etc .
The interpretation of most lessons is almost always left with the students , many of whom wo n't consider anything but memorizing the basic facts to pass the test.I had one excellent history professor , he lambasted the history channel for their distortions and mistakes .
Why should we expect anything more out of a purely entertainment medium such video games than an ( entertainment ) TV channel supposedly dedicated to history ?
The best lesson to learn here is simply not to believe everything you read , see , or what someone tells you to without verification .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where you don't have to pay royalties for the ideas.
In that sense, in video games, it plays the same role as a franchises such as Star Wars, Star Trek, Harry Potter, or Lord of the Rings.
Just as with history, with them you get major characters, direction of story (a plot), costumes, backdrop, and "feel".Now, I know with anime, most games don't get 'canon' exactly correct.
Why should we expect they get history correct?
In the end, it's just attribute it to artistic license.Moreover, the important part about the study of history isn't specific facts about narrow things, but the recognition of repeatable patterns due to human nature, and avoiding the same mistakes twice.
For some reason, most history classes ignores this part, and zooms in on meaningless facts (such as dates) and the teachers almost never are concerned context, or the greater lessons learned, etc.
The interpretation of most lessons is almost always left with the students, many of whom won't consider anything but memorizing the basic facts to pass the test.I had one excellent history professor, he lambasted the history channel for their distortions and mistakes.
Why should we expect anything more out of a purely entertainment medium such video games than an (entertainment) TV channel supposedly dedicated to history?
The best lesson to learn here is simply not to believe everything you read, see, or what someone tells you to without verification.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843891</id>
	<title>Re:Hmph</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256294640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Of course thanks to the genius of Holywood we all know the Enigma machine was really stolen by a bunch of Americans (U-571) <b>and not by Poles</b>....</p></div><p>I'm undoing a few moderations here but I'm afraid I just have to point out your horrific factual innacuracy. You slam Hollywood for saying American's captured the first complete Enigma machine, then you make up some nonsense that it was actually Poles? If you bothered to check your facts before criticising the facts of others you'd know it was the British, HMS Bulldog to be precise, that captured the Enigma machine in 1941.</p><p>I can only hope that you were making some cryptic comment on the whole historical innacuracies situation, but even if that's the case; too subtle.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course thanks to the genius of Holywood we all know the Enigma machine was really stolen by a bunch of Americans ( U-571 ) and not by Poles....I 'm undoing a few moderations here but I 'm afraid I just have to point out your horrific factual innacuracy .
You slam Hollywood for saying American 's captured the first complete Enigma machine , then you make up some nonsense that it was actually Poles ?
If you bothered to check your facts before criticising the facts of others you 'd know it was the British , HMS Bulldog to be precise , that captured the Enigma machine in 1941.I can only hope that you were making some cryptic comment on the whole historical innacuracies situation , but even if that 's the case ; too subtle .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course thanks to the genius of Holywood we all know the Enigma machine was really stolen by a bunch of Americans (U-571) and not by Poles....I'm undoing a few moderations here but I'm afraid I just have to point out your horrific factual innacuracy.
You slam Hollywood for saying American's captured the first complete Enigma machine, then you make up some nonsense that it was actually Poles?
If you bothered to check your facts before criticising the facts of others you'd know it was the British, HMS Bulldog to be precise, that captured the Enigma machine in 1941.I can only hope that you were making some cryptic comment on the whole historical innacuracies situation, but even if that's the case; too subtle.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843487</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845069</id>
	<title>Re:Where is the news?</title>
	<author>dkleinsc</author>
	<datestamp>1256307000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is one of the many reasons I loved <i>Blazing Saddles</i>: Not because it was historically accurate (not remotely), but because a number of the jokes were based on putting the real story of how the American west was somewhat civilized (Chinese-Americans and African-Americans worked to death building railroads, rampant racism, and so forth) in the middle of a Hollywood western.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is one of the many reasons I loved Blazing Saddles : Not because it was historically accurate ( not remotely ) , but because a number of the jokes were based on putting the real story of how the American west was somewhat civilized ( Chinese-Americans and African-Americans worked to death building railroads , rampant racism , and so forth ) in the middle of a Hollywood western .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is one of the many reasons I loved Blazing Saddles: Not because it was historically accurate (not remotely), but because a number of the jokes were based on putting the real story of how the American west was somewhat civilized (Chinese-Americans and African-Americans worked to death building railroads, rampant racism, and so forth) in the middle of a Hollywood western.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843315</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29845595</id>
	<title>Re:Historians talk about history very differently</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256310420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How about a WWII FPS that starts with you negotiating German reparations at Versailles, progresses through the effect of hyper-inflation on the German psyche, follows the competition between National Socialism and Marxism for populist support--all leading up the a brief period of warfare and an epilogue of mass rapes, economic devastation, and simmering hostility and distrust between the Soviets and the other former allied powers. Sounds like fun to me.</htmltext>
<tokenext>How about a WWII FPS that starts with you negotiating German reparations at Versailles , progresses through the effect of hyper-inflation on the German psyche , follows the competition between National Socialism and Marxism for populist support--all leading up the a brief period of warfare and an epilogue of mass rapes , economic devastation , and simmering hostility and distrust between the Soviets and the other former allied powers .
Sounds like fun to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about a WWII FPS that starts with you negotiating German reparations at Versailles, progresses through the effect of hyper-inflation on the German psyche, follows the competition between National Socialism and Marxism for populist support--all leading up the a brief period of warfare and an epilogue of mass rapes, economic devastation, and simmering hostility and distrust between the Soviets and the other former allied powers.
Sounds like fun to me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843509</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29850285</id>
	<title>I've got one word for you:</title>
	<author>evilviper</author>
	<datestamp>1256330340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>mdash!</p><p>&amp;mkay;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>mdash ! &amp;mkay ;</tokentext>
<sentencetext>mdash!&amp;mkay;</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843325</id>
	<title>Non issue</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256241240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's a bloody video game.  They have no obligation to you to be historically accurate, it's just a "standard" that we've set amongst ourselves probably out of boredom.  Go cry about something else please. If you want accuracy (arguable), then read a history book.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's a bloody video game .
They have no obligation to you to be historically accurate , it 's just a " standard " that we 've set amongst ourselves probably out of boredom .
Go cry about something else please .
If you want accuracy ( arguable ) , then read a history book .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's a bloody video game.
They have no obligation to you to be historically accurate, it's just a "standard" that we've set amongst ourselves probably out of boredom.
Go cry about something else please.
If you want accuracy (arguable), then read a history book.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843713</id>
	<title>Kind of superficial</title>
	<author>FornaxChemica</author>
	<datestamp>1256291880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The content is rather shallow for an article entitled "History in Video Games", it's just a few recent cases. History plays an important part in several old video games: the majority of wargames (Civilization, Ages of Empire, Centurion Defender of Rome, Nobunaga Ambition, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, North and South, Napoleon), which he did not even mention once, semi-educative games like the Carmen Sandiego series and even your occasional action game !</p><p>I was reviewing SNK's Guerrilla War on NES last week on my website. The Japanese version, entitled Guevara, is clearly a depiction of the Cuban Revolution, all the key names and some locations have been retained; you play as Che Guevara and Fidel Castro and the final boss is Batista.</p><p>And a better example than Final Fantasy, among old RPGs, would have been The Battle of Olympus on NES set in Ancient Greece. Not to forget all the games from Japan who have references to their own history and myths, like Samurai Shodown.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The content is rather shallow for an article entitled " History in Video Games " , it 's just a few recent cases .
History plays an important part in several old video games : the majority of wargames ( Civilization , Ages of Empire , Centurion Defender of Rome , Nobunaga Ambition , Romance of the Three Kingdoms , North and South , Napoleon ) , which he did not even mention once , semi-educative games like the Carmen Sandiego series and even your occasional action game ! I was reviewing SNK 's Guerrilla War on NES last week on my website .
The Japanese version , entitled Guevara , is clearly a depiction of the Cuban Revolution , all the key names and some locations have been retained ; you play as Che Guevara and Fidel Castro and the final boss is Batista.And a better example than Final Fantasy , among old RPGs , would have been The Battle of Olympus on NES set in Ancient Greece .
Not to forget all the games from Japan who have references to their own history and myths , like Samurai Shodown .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The content is rather shallow for an article entitled "History in Video Games", it's just a few recent cases.
History plays an important part in several old video games: the majority of wargames (Civilization, Ages of Empire, Centurion Defender of Rome, Nobunaga Ambition, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, North and South, Napoleon), which he did not even mention once, semi-educative games like the Carmen Sandiego series and even your occasional action game !I was reviewing SNK's Guerrilla War on NES last week on my website.
The Japanese version, entitled Guevara, is clearly a depiction of the Cuban Revolution, all the key names and some locations have been retained; you play as Che Guevara and Fidel Castro and the final boss is Batista.And a better example than Final Fantasy, among old RPGs, would have been The Battle of Olympus on NES set in Ancient Greece.
Not to forget all the games from Japan who have references to their own history and myths, like Samurai Shodown.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29854121</id>
	<title>Re:Hmph</title>
	<author>uninformedLuddite</author>
	<datestamp>1256317320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Don't know why you are apologising unless it's due to your own horrible factual inaccuracy. Here's the real story. In 1939 a German truck was delivering enigma machines to frontier units. Polish agents ambushed the truck and stole one of the machines. They covered their tracks with fire. Fire worked very well as the enigma machine had been designed to be able to be destroyed quite easily by fire in case of  it being close to capture.
Alistair Denniston picked up the stolen unit in Warsaw's old Bristol Hotel in one of those awfully cliched two identical bags in a pile of luggage swaps you see in the B grade spy movies.
The actual machine closely resembled a US invention (patent 1,675,411) which was in the text of the original report on the machine in 1938(i think it was 38). If  remember correctly the actual Enigma was based on a unit that had been built fifteen odd years before that patent was even registered. So it was 1939 and not 1941. the reason for the date disparity is that the British had to keep it under wraps until the Germans were sure that their codes were broken which they cottoned onto in 1941.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't know why you are apologising unless it 's due to your own horrible factual inaccuracy .
Here 's the real story .
In 1939 a German truck was delivering enigma machines to frontier units .
Polish agents ambushed the truck and stole one of the machines .
They covered their tracks with fire .
Fire worked very well as the enigma machine had been designed to be able to be destroyed quite easily by fire in case of it being close to capture .
Alistair Denniston picked up the stolen unit in Warsaw 's old Bristol Hotel in one of those awfully cliched two identical bags in a pile of luggage swaps you see in the B grade spy movies .
The actual machine closely resembled a US invention ( patent 1,675,411 ) which was in the text of the original report on the machine in 1938 ( i think it was 38 ) .
If remember correctly the actual Enigma was based on a unit that had been built fifteen odd years before that patent was even registered .
So it was 1939 and not 1941. the reason for the date disparity is that the British had to keep it under wraps until the Germans were sure that their codes were broken which they cottoned onto in 1941 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't know why you are apologising unless it's due to your own horrible factual inaccuracy.
Here's the real story.
In 1939 a German truck was delivering enigma machines to frontier units.
Polish agents ambushed the truck and stole one of the machines.
They covered their tracks with fire.
Fire worked very well as the enigma machine had been designed to be able to be destroyed quite easily by fire in case of  it being close to capture.
Alistair Denniston picked up the stolen unit in Warsaw's old Bristol Hotel in one of those awfully cliched two identical bags in a pile of luggage swaps you see in the B grade spy movies.
The actual machine closely resembled a US invention (patent 1,675,411) which was in the text of the original report on the machine in 1938(i think it was 38).
If  remember correctly the actual Enigma was based on a unit that had been built fifteen odd years before that patent was even registered.
So it was 1939 and not 1941. the reason for the date disparity is that the British had to keep it under wraps until the Germans were sure that their codes were broken which they cottoned onto in 1941.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843891</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29847795</id>
	<title>Really?</title>
	<author>PhillyMeeks</author>
	<datestamp>1256321220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Unless the game's description contains the words "historically accurate" I don't give a rat's ass what liberties they take in regards to the story. Why would we set boundaries within which a story must be told? If you say that the dinosaurs were actually giant, time-traveling robot assassins sent by the Nazis back in time to kill the ancestors of our American forefathers, then I say where is the beta sign-up form for that game?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless the game 's description contains the words " historically accurate " I do n't give a rat 's ass what liberties they take in regards to the story .
Why would we set boundaries within which a story must be told ?
If you say that the dinosaurs were actually giant , time-traveling robot assassins sent by the Nazis back in time to kill the ancestors of our American forefathers , then I say where is the beta sign-up form for that game ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless the game's description contains the words "historically accurate" I don't give a rat's ass what liberties they take in regards to the story.
Why would we set boundaries within which a story must be told?
If you say that the dinosaurs were actually giant, time-traveling robot assassins sent by the Nazis back in time to kill the ancestors of our American forefathers, then I say where is the beta sign-up form for that game?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843999</id>
	<title>Giant Enemy Crab</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256296500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That is all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That is all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843315</id>
	<title>Where is the news?</title>
	<author>mseeger</author>
	<datestamp>1256241120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>The same thing has happened in the movies. Often historical events were only used as distorted background. And movies are as games made for entertainment purposes. So what counts is entertainment value not historical accuracy.<br>
<br>
CU, Martin</htmltext>
<tokenext>The same thing has happened in the movies .
Often historical events were only used as distorted background .
And movies are as games made for entertainment purposes .
So what counts is entertainment value not historical accuracy .
CU , Martin</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The same thing has happened in the movies.
Often historical events were only used as distorted background.
And movies are as games made for entertainment purposes.
So what counts is entertainment value not historical accuracy.
CU, Martin</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29846679</id>
	<title>Ask a faggy question, get a bunch of faggy answers</title>
	<author>GradiusCVK</author>
	<datestamp>1256316180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I disagree with some of what you said above, and I agree with some of it. I'm not going to bother highlighting either as that would require that I re-read it and quote it, which might cause my ass to bleed from the self-importance and grandiosity of your post. Allows me to summarize for others who might wish to debate:<br> <br>

1: History is open to interpretation.<br>
2: Entertainment is historically inaccurate.<br>
3: History is about concepts, not facts.<br> <br>

Not a whole lot there for all the bullshit you just spewed onto the Internet. FYI, <a href="http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080218143924AAPBp92" title="yahoo.com">this thread</a> [yahoo.com] explains in greater detail why you suck. Personally, my debating skills go right out the window when I have to deal with some fucktard with access to a thesaurus who thinks that style is more important than substance.</div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I disagree with some of what you said above , and I agree with some of it .
I 'm not going to bother highlighting either as that would require that I re-read it and quote it , which might cause my ass to bleed from the self-importance and grandiosity of your post .
Allows me to summarize for others who might wish to debate : 1 : History is open to interpretation .
2 : Entertainment is historically inaccurate .
3 : History is about concepts , not facts .
Not a whole lot there for all the bullshit you just spewed onto the Internet .
FYI , this thread [ yahoo.com ] explains in greater detail why you suck .
Personally , my debating skills go right out the window when I have to deal with some fucktard with access to a thesaurus who thinks that style is more important than substance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I disagree with some of what you said above, and I agree with some of it.
I'm not going to bother highlighting either as that would require that I re-read it and quote it, which might cause my ass to bleed from the self-importance and grandiosity of your post.
Allows me to summarize for others who might wish to debate: 

1: History is open to interpretation.
2: Entertainment is historically inaccurate.
3: History is about concepts, not facts.
Not a whole lot there for all the bullshit you just spewed onto the Internet.
FYI, this thread [yahoo.com] explains in greater detail why you suck.
Personally, my debating skills go right out the window when I have to deal with some fucktard with access to a thesaurus who thinks that style is more important than substance.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843509</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29843605</id>
	<title>Nonsense</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256289960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Games have utilized historical narrative extensively, but to what extent does the platform take liberties with, and perhaps misuse it?"
<br>
<br>
As someone who has studied history extensively for my degree and has somehow managed to use that for my career without being an academic, I take serious issue with the phrasing and implications here. Historical narrative is little more than an eloquent game of connect the dots. It takes liberties by necessity. Its misuse is only a matter of perspective. If you ever find yourself learning history in a meaningful way while playing a game, stop breathing. Read a fiction novel and don't post this mindless drivel.
<br>
<br>
In related news: Nearly everything you hear is influenced by the whims of popular narrative. Sometimes what you hear is "bad".</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Games have utilized historical narrative extensively , but to what extent does the platform take liberties with , and perhaps misuse it ?
" As someone who has studied history extensively for my degree and has somehow managed to use that for my career without being an academic , I take serious issue with the phrasing and implications here .
Historical narrative is little more than an eloquent game of connect the dots .
It takes liberties by necessity .
Its misuse is only a matter of perspective .
If you ever find yourself learning history in a meaningful way while playing a game , stop breathing .
Read a fiction novel and do n't post this mindless drivel .
In related news : Nearly everything you hear is influenced by the whims of popular narrative .
Sometimes what you hear is " bad " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Games have utilized historical narrative extensively, but to what extent does the platform take liberties with, and perhaps misuse it?
"


As someone who has studied history extensively for my degree and has somehow managed to use that for my career without being an academic, I take serious issue with the phrasing and implications here.
Historical narrative is little more than an eloquent game of connect the dots.
It takes liberties by necessity.
Its misuse is only a matter of perspective.
If you ever find yourself learning history in a meaningful way while playing a game, stop breathing.
Read a fiction novel and don't post this mindless drivel.
In related news: Nearly everything you hear is influenced by the whims of popular narrative.
Sometimes what you hear is "bad".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_23_0532255.29844807</id>
	<title>Dynasty Warriors is historically accurate</title>
	<author>Parlett316</author>
	<datestamp>1256305320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do not pursue Lu bu!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do not pursue Lu bu !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do not pursue Lu bu!</sentencetext>
</comment>
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