<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_10_22_1211229</id>
	<title>The Risks and Rewards of Warmer Data Centers</title>
	<author>samzenpus</author>
	<datestamp>1256218020000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>1sockchuck writes <i>"The <a href="http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2009/10/21/raise-the-temperature-fight-the-fans/">risks and rewards of raising the temperature</a> in the data center were debated last week in several new studies based on real-world testing in Silicon Valley facilities. The verdict: companies can indeed save big money on power costs by running warmer. Cisco Systems expects to save $2 million a year by raising the temperature in its San Jose research labs. But nudge the thermostat too high, and the energy savings can evaporate in a flurry of server fan activity. The new studies added some practical guidance on a trend that has become a <a href="//it.slashdot.org/story/09/03/19/1329222/The-100-Degree-Data-Center">hot topic</a> as companies focus on rising power bills in the data center."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>1sockchuck writes " The risks and rewards of raising the temperature in the data center were debated last week in several new studies based on real-world testing in Silicon Valley facilities .
The verdict : companies can indeed save big money on power costs by running warmer .
Cisco Systems expects to save $ 2 million a year by raising the temperature in its San Jose research labs .
But nudge the thermostat too high , and the energy savings can evaporate in a flurry of server fan activity .
The new studies added some practical guidance on a trend that has become a hot topic as companies focus on rising power bills in the data center .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1sockchuck writes "The risks and rewards of raising the temperature in the data center were debated last week in several new studies based on real-world testing in Silicon Valley facilities.
The verdict: companies can indeed save big money on power costs by running warmer.
Cisco Systems expects to save $2 million a year by raising the temperature in its San Jose research labs.
But nudge the thermostat too high, and the energy savings can evaporate in a flurry of server fan activity.
The new studies added some practical guidance on a trend that has become a hot topic as companies focus on rising power bills in the data center.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29844293</id>
	<title>Re:Ducted cabinets</title>
	<author>Leolo</author>
	<datestamp>1256300640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One huge problem with your proposition is that everyone is moving away from specialised hardware to commodity components.  What you are proposing is a return to specialisation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One huge problem with your proposition is that everyone is moving away from specialised hardware to commodity components .
What you are proposing is a return to specialisation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One huge problem with your proposition is that everyone is moving away from specialised hardware to commodity components.
What you are proposing is a return to specialisation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834707</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834907</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>autora</author>
	<datestamp>1256225160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I see you've really thought this one through... A warehouse full of servers that need regular maintenance filled with liquid nitrogen is sure to lower costs.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I see you 've really thought this one through... A warehouse full of servers that need regular maintenance filled with liquid nitrogen is sure to lower costs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I see you've really thought this one through... A warehouse full of servers that need regular maintenance filled with liquid nitrogen is sure to lower costs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834785</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834789</id>
	<title>One failed attempt</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256224440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They did try using 40 year old female virgins as heat sinks but there was took much icing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They did try using 40 year old female virgins as heat sinks but there was took much icing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They did try using 40 year old female virgins as heat sinks but there was took much icing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834779</id>
	<title>We have replaced..</title>
	<author>UncleWilly</author>
	<datestamp>1256224380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We have replaced Tom's Decaf with DOUBLE ESPRESSO this morning, let's see if he's noticed the difference..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We have replaced Tom 's Decaf with DOUBLE ESPRESSO this morning , let 's see if he 's noticed the difference. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We have replaced Tom's Decaf with DOUBLE ESPRESSO this morning, let's see if he's noticed the difference..</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834707</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834755</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>Interoperable</author>
	<datestamp>1256224200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>You loose your energy savings to having to pay employees away from home pay and "-60C, are you fucking kidding me?" pay. That said...I'd work in Antarctica if I had the chance<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</htmltext>
<tokenext>You loose your energy savings to having to pay employees away from home pay and " -60C , are you fucking kidding me ?
" pay .
That said...I 'd work in Antarctica if I had the chance : - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You loose your energy savings to having to pay employees away from home pay and "-60C, are you fucking kidding me?
" pay.
That said...I'd work in Antarctica if I had the chance :-)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834425</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29836021</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>N Monkey</author>
	<datestamp>1256230020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Locate the server farm in Antarctica!</p></div><p>Perhaps not quite Antarctica, but according to the <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click\_online/8297237.stm" title="bbc.co.uk">BBC's Click program</a> [bbc.co.uk] Iceland is bidding for server business based on the low temperatures and lots of cheap geothermal power.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Locate the server farm in Antarctica ! Perhaps not quite Antarctica , but according to the BBC 's Click program [ bbc.co.uk ] Iceland is bidding for server business based on the low temperatures and lots of cheap geothermal power .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Locate the server farm in Antarctica!Perhaps not quite Antarctica, but according to the BBC's Click program [bbc.co.uk] Iceland is bidding for server business based on the low temperatures and lots of cheap geothermal power.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834425</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29836625</id>
	<title>Re:Ducted cabinets</title>
	<author>0100010001010011</author>
	<datestamp>1256232780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why even have individual cases? It seems to be rare now days that a  full rack isn't just full of computers. Why not have one massive door and a bunch of naked computers on the racks. Set up the air flow in your building such that one side is high pressure the other side is low and blow air across the entire thing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why even have individual cases ?
It seems to be rare now days that a full rack is n't just full of computers .
Why not have one massive door and a bunch of naked computers on the racks .
Set up the air flow in your building such that one side is high pressure the other side is low and blow air across the entire thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why even have individual cases?
It seems to be rare now days that a  full rack isn't just full of computers.
Why not have one massive door and a bunch of naked computers on the racks.
Set up the air flow in your building such that one side is high pressure the other side is low and blow air across the entire thing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834707</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29845671</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256310840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>High density racks do, on occassion, have AC conduits plugged directly into manifolds on the top of the cabinet, as you suggest.</p><p>The invention of AC and the practice of indoor climate control predates the computer by decades.  The industry has well-worn paths for new strategies and technologies to be evaluated and adopted when proven effective and financially sound.  In short, the HVAC industry knows everything there is to know about managing temperature and humidity (and smoke, and particulates, and dangerous gases, etc...) in a room.</p><p>The most important tool available today for managing temperature in data centers is server virtualization.  Just like nothing beats taking old cars off the road to reduce carbon emissions, so nothing beats taking a server out of production to reduce data center cooling loads.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>High density racks do , on occassion , have AC conduits plugged directly into manifolds on the top of the cabinet , as you suggest.The invention of AC and the practice of indoor climate control predates the computer by decades .
The industry has well-worn paths for new strategies and technologies to be evaluated and adopted when proven effective and financially sound .
In short , the HVAC industry knows everything there is to know about managing temperature and humidity ( and smoke , and particulates , and dangerous gases , etc... ) in a room.The most important tool available today for managing temperature in data centers is server virtualization .
Just like nothing beats taking old cars off the road to reduce carbon emissions , so nothing beats taking a server out of production to reduce data center cooling loads .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>High density racks do, on occassion, have AC conduits plugged directly into manifolds on the top of the cabinet, as you suggest.The invention of AC and the practice of indoor climate control predates the computer by decades.
The industry has well-worn paths for new strategies and technologies to be evaluated and adopted when proven effective and financially sound.
In short, the HVAC industry knows everything there is to know about managing temperature and humidity (and smoke, and particulates, and dangerous gases, etc...) in a room.The most important tool available today for managing temperature in data centers is server virtualization.
Just like nothing beats taking old cars off the road to reduce carbon emissions, so nothing beats taking a server out of production to reduce data center cooling loads.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29837991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834843</id>
	<title>Re:Possible strategy</title>
	<author>Linker3000</author>
	<datestamp>1256224800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Interestingly enough, I recently submitted an 'Ask Slashdot' (Pending) about this as my IT room is also the building's server room (just one rack and 5 servers) and we normally just keep the windows open during the day and turn on the aircon when we close up for the night, but sometimes we forget and the room's a bit warm when we come in the next day! We could just leave the aircon on all the time but that's not very eco-friendly.</p><p>I was asking for advice on USB/LAN-based temp sensors and also USB/LAN-based learning IR transmitters so we could have some code that sensed temperature and then signalled to the aircon to turn on by mimicking the remote control. Google turns up a wide range of kit from bareboard projects to 'professional' HVAC temperature modules costing stupid money so I was wondering if anyone had some practical experience of marrying the two requirements (temp sensor and IR transmitter) with sensibly-priced, off-the-shelf (in the UK) kit.</p><p>Anyone?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Interestingly enough , I recently submitted an 'Ask Slashdot ' ( Pending ) about this as my IT room is also the building 's server room ( just one rack and 5 servers ) and we normally just keep the windows open during the day and turn on the aircon when we close up for the night , but sometimes we forget and the room 's a bit warm when we come in the next day !
We could just leave the aircon on all the time but that 's not very eco-friendly.I was asking for advice on USB/LAN-based temp sensors and also USB/LAN-based learning IR transmitters so we could have some code that sensed temperature and then signalled to the aircon to turn on by mimicking the remote control .
Google turns up a wide range of kit from bareboard projects to 'professional ' HVAC temperature modules costing stupid money so I was wondering if anyone had some practical experience of marrying the two requirements ( temp sensor and IR transmitter ) with sensibly-priced , off-the-shelf ( in the UK ) kit.Anyone ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Interestingly enough, I recently submitted an 'Ask Slashdot' (Pending) about this as my IT room is also the building's server room (just one rack and 5 servers) and we normally just keep the windows open during the day and turn on the aircon when we close up for the night, but sometimes we forget and the room's a bit warm when we come in the next day!
We could just leave the aircon on all the time but that's not very eco-friendly.I was asking for advice on USB/LAN-based temp sensors and also USB/LAN-based learning IR transmitters so we could have some code that sensed temperature and then signalled to the aircon to turn on by mimicking the remote control.
Google turns up a wide range of kit from bareboard projects to 'professional' HVAC temperature modules costing stupid money so I was wondering if anyone had some practical experience of marrying the two requirements (temp sensor and IR transmitter) with sensibly-priced, off-the-shelf (in the UK) kit.Anyone?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834507</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835147</id>
	<title>Article... What Article?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256226360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've RTFA and the article lacked most of the information that was discussed in the summary. It doesn't really explain about the many risks of higher temperatures, only about the cost savings of raising the temperature.</p><p>With modern cooling infrastructure, are cooling costs that high? At my datacenter, cooling isn't that much expensive. The chiller units are expensive to buy, but the price for electricity and chilled water isn't that high.</p><p>Don't people know what happens when computer equipment is exposed to high temperatures? Hardware failures increate, hard drives may fail sooner, and fans will be running way faster (TFA mentions that one).</p><p>Running a datacenter too cool isn't good, either. Your staff will be freezing and you'll be wasting money on chiller maintenance.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've RTFA and the article lacked most of the information that was discussed in the summary .
It does n't really explain about the many risks of higher temperatures , only about the cost savings of raising the temperature.With modern cooling infrastructure , are cooling costs that high ?
At my datacenter , cooling is n't that much expensive .
The chiller units are expensive to buy , but the price for electricity and chilled water is n't that high.Do n't people know what happens when computer equipment is exposed to high temperatures ?
Hardware failures increate , hard drives may fail sooner , and fans will be running way faster ( TFA mentions that one ) .Running a datacenter too cool is n't good , either .
Your staff will be freezing and you 'll be wasting money on chiller maintenance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've RTFA and the article lacked most of the information that was discussed in the summary.
It doesn't really explain about the many risks of higher temperatures, only about the cost savings of raising the temperature.With modern cooling infrastructure, are cooling costs that high?
At my datacenter, cooling isn't that much expensive.
The chiller units are expensive to buy, but the price for electricity and chilled water isn't that high.Don't people know what happens when computer equipment is exposed to high temperatures?
Hardware failures increate, hard drives may fail sooner, and fans will be running way faster (TFA mentions that one).Running a datacenter too cool isn't good, either.
Your staff will be freezing and you'll be wasting money on chiller maintenance.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834915</id>
	<title>Re:Ducted cabinets</title>
	<author>Linker3000</author>
	<datestamp>1256225220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While I was looking at aircon stuff for our small room, I came across a company that sold floor-to-ceiling panels and door units that allowed you to 'box in' your racks and then divert your aircon into the construction rather than cooling the whole room. Seems like a sensible solution for smaller data centres or IT rooms with 1 or 2 racks in the corner of an otherwise normal office.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While I was looking at aircon stuff for our small room , I came across a company that sold floor-to-ceiling panels and door units that allowed you to 'box in ' your racks and then divert your aircon into the construction rather than cooling the whole room .
Seems like a sensible solution for smaller data centres or IT rooms with 1 or 2 racks in the corner of an otherwise normal office .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I was looking at aircon stuff for our small room, I came across a company that sold floor-to-ceiling panels and door units that allowed you to 'box in' your racks and then divert your aircon into the construction rather than cooling the whole room.
Seems like a sensible solution for smaller data centres or IT rooms with 1 or 2 racks in the corner of an otherwise normal office.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834707</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835677</id>
	<title>Re:Ducted cabinets</title>
	<author>LMacG</author>
	<datestamp>1256228580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I know just the man to work on this -- <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil\_(film)" title="wikipedia.org">Archebald 'Harry' Tuttle.</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know just the man to work on this -- Archebald 'Harry ' Tuttle .
[ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know just the man to work on this -- Archebald 'Harry' Tuttle.
[wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834707</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835809</id>
	<title>Another server room horror story</title>
	<author>BenEnglishAtHome</author>
	<datestamp>1256229120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm less concerned with the fine-tuning of the environment for servers than I am with getting the basics right.  How many bad server room implementations have you seen?</p><p>I'm sitting in one.  We used to have a half-dozen built-for-the-purpose Liebert units scattered around the periphery of the room.  The space was properly designed and the hardware maintained whatever temp and humidity we chose to set.  They were expensive to run and maintain but they did their job and did it right.</p><p>About seven years ago, the bean-counting powers-that-be pronounced them "too expensive" and had them ripped out.  The replacement central system pumps cold air under the raised floor from one central point.  Theoretically, it could work.  In practice, it was too humid in here the first day.</p><p>And the first week, month, and year.  We complained.  We did simple things to demonstate to upper management and building management that it was too humid in here, things like storing a box of envelopes in the middle of the room for a week and showing management that they had sealed themselves due to excessive humidity.</p><p>We were, in every case, rebuffed.</p><p>A few weeks ago, a contractor working on phone lines under the floor complained about the mold.  *HE* got listened to.  Preliminary studies show both penicillin (relatively harmless) and black (not so harmless) mold in high concentrations.  Lift a floor tile near the air input and there's a nice thick coat of fluffy, fuzzy mold on everything.  There's mold behind the sheetrock that sometimes bleeds through when the walls sweat.  They brought in dehumidifiers that are pulling more than 30 gallons of water out of the air every day.  The incoming air, depending on who's doing the measuring, is at 75\% to 90\% humidity.  According to the first independent tester who came in, "Essentially, it's raining" under our floor at the intake.</p><p>And the areas where condensation is *supposed* to happen and drain away?  Those areas are bone dry.</p><p>IOW, our whole system was designed and installed without our input and over our objections by idiots who had no idea what they were doing.</p><p>So, my fellow server room denizens, please keep this in mind - When people (especially management types) show up with studies that support the view that the way the environment is controlled in your server room can be altered to save money, be afraid.  Be very afraid.  It doesn't matter how good the basic research is or how artfully it could be employed to save money without causing problems, by the time the PHBs get ahold of it, it'll be perverted into an excuse to totally screw things up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm less concerned with the fine-tuning of the environment for servers than I am with getting the basics right .
How many bad server room implementations have you seen ? I 'm sitting in one .
We used to have a half-dozen built-for-the-purpose Liebert units scattered around the periphery of the room .
The space was properly designed and the hardware maintained whatever temp and humidity we chose to set .
They were expensive to run and maintain but they did their job and did it right.About seven years ago , the bean-counting powers-that-be pronounced them " too expensive " and had them ripped out .
The replacement central system pumps cold air under the raised floor from one central point .
Theoretically , it could work .
In practice , it was too humid in here the first day.And the first week , month , and year .
We complained .
We did simple things to demonstate to upper management and building management that it was too humid in here , things like storing a box of envelopes in the middle of the room for a week and showing management that they had sealed themselves due to excessive humidity.We were , in every case , rebuffed.A few weeks ago , a contractor working on phone lines under the floor complained about the mold .
* HE * got listened to .
Preliminary studies show both penicillin ( relatively harmless ) and black ( not so harmless ) mold in high concentrations .
Lift a floor tile near the air input and there 's a nice thick coat of fluffy , fuzzy mold on everything .
There 's mold behind the sheetrock that sometimes bleeds through when the walls sweat .
They brought in dehumidifiers that are pulling more than 30 gallons of water out of the air every day .
The incoming air , depending on who 's doing the measuring , is at 75 \ % to 90 \ % humidity .
According to the first independent tester who came in , " Essentially , it 's raining " under our floor at the intake.And the areas where condensation is * supposed * to happen and drain away ?
Those areas are bone dry.IOW , our whole system was designed and installed without our input and over our objections by idiots who had no idea what they were doing.So , my fellow server room denizens , please keep this in mind - When people ( especially management types ) show up with studies that support the view that the way the environment is controlled in your server room can be altered to save money , be afraid .
Be very afraid .
It does n't matter how good the basic research is or how artfully it could be employed to save money without causing problems , by the time the PHBs get ahold of it , it 'll be perverted into an excuse to totally screw things up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm less concerned with the fine-tuning of the environment for servers than I am with getting the basics right.
How many bad server room implementations have you seen?I'm sitting in one.
We used to have a half-dozen built-for-the-purpose Liebert units scattered around the periphery of the room.
The space was properly designed and the hardware maintained whatever temp and humidity we chose to set.
They were expensive to run and maintain but they did their job and did it right.About seven years ago, the bean-counting powers-that-be pronounced them "too expensive" and had them ripped out.
The replacement central system pumps cold air under the raised floor from one central point.
Theoretically, it could work.
In practice, it was too humid in here the first day.And the first week, month, and year.
We complained.
We did simple things to demonstate to upper management and building management that it was too humid in here, things like storing a box of envelopes in the middle of the room for a week and showing management that they had sealed themselves due to excessive humidity.We were, in every case, rebuffed.A few weeks ago, a contractor working on phone lines under the floor complained about the mold.
*HE* got listened to.
Preliminary studies show both penicillin (relatively harmless) and black (not so harmless) mold in high concentrations.
Lift a floor tile near the air input and there's a nice thick coat of fluffy, fuzzy mold on everything.
There's mold behind the sheetrock that sometimes bleeds through when the walls sweat.
They brought in dehumidifiers that are pulling more than 30 gallons of water out of the air every day.
The incoming air, depending on who's doing the measuring, is at 75\% to 90\% humidity.
According to the first independent tester who came in, "Essentially, it's raining" under our floor at the intake.And the areas where condensation is *supposed* to happen and drain away?
Those areas are bone dry.IOW, our whole system was designed and installed without our input and over our objections by idiots who had no idea what they were doing.So, my fellow server room denizens, please keep this in mind - When people (especially management types) show up with studies that support the view that the way the environment is controlled in your server room can be altered to save money, be afraid.
Be very afraid.
It doesn't matter how good the basic research is or how artfully it could be employed to save money without causing problems, by the time the PHBs get ahold of it, it'll be perverted into an excuse to totally screw things up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835039</id>
	<title>Longer Study</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256225820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>The studies were not long enough to constitute a very in-depth analysis.  It would have to be a multi-month, or up to a year to analyze all the effects of raising temperatures.
<br>
<br>
For example, little was considered with:

<br>
<br>
1) Mechanical Part wear (increased fan wear, component wear due to heat)

<br>
<br>
2) Employee discomfort (80 degree server room?)

<br>
<br>
3) Part failure*

<br>
<br>
*If existing cooling solutions had issues, it would be a shorter time between the issue and additional problems since you have cut your window by ~15 degrees.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The studies were not long enough to constitute a very in-depth analysis .
It would have to be a multi-month , or up to a year to analyze all the effects of raising temperatures .
For example , little was considered with : 1 ) Mechanical Part wear ( increased fan wear , component wear due to heat ) 2 ) Employee discomfort ( 80 degree server room ?
) 3 ) Part failure * * If existing cooling solutions had issues , it would be a shorter time between the issue and additional problems since you have cut your window by ~ 15 degrees .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The studies were not long enough to constitute a very in-depth analysis.
It would have to be a multi-month, or up to a year to analyze all the effects of raising temperatures.
For example, little was considered with:



1) Mechanical Part wear (increased fan wear, component wear due to heat)



2) Employee discomfort (80 degree server room?
)



3) Part failure*



*If existing cooling solutions had issues, it would be a shorter time between the issue and additional problems since you have cut your window by ~15 degrees.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834613</id>
	<title>Re:What about HDDs?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256223060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Until what point? You can't consistently say "increase the temperature to decrease the MTBF".</p><p>You'll end up with molten slag.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Until what point ?
You ca n't consistently say " increase the temperature to decrease the MTBF " .You 'll end up with molten slag .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Until what point?
You can't consistently say "increase the temperature to decrease the MTBF".You'll end up with molten slag.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834529</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834777</id>
	<title>Re:Ducted cabinets</title>
	<author>Cerberus7</author>
	<datestamp>1256224380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>THIS.  I was going to post the same thing, but you beat me to it!  APC makes exactly what you're talking about.  They call it "InfraStruXure."  Yeah, I know...  Anywho, <a href="http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=262" title="apc.com" rel="nofollow">here's a link to their page for this stuff</a> [apc.com].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>THIS .
I was going to post the same thing , but you beat me to it !
APC makes exactly what you 're talking about .
They call it " InfraStruXure .
" Yeah , I know... Anywho , here 's a link to their page for this stuff [ apc.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>THIS.
I was going to post the same thing, but you beat me to it!
APC makes exactly what you're talking about.
They call it "InfraStruXure.
"  Yeah, I know...  Anywho, here's a link to their page for this stuff [apc.com].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834707</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29840251</id>
	<title>Re:Possible strategy</title>
	<author>grimsweep</author>
	<datestamp>1256206620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You win again, Heisenberg!</htmltext>
<tokenext>You win again , Heisenberg !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You win again, Heisenberg!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834827</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29844281</id>
	<title>Re:Longer Study</title>
	<author>Leolo</author>
	<datestamp>1256300520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Has a study like this been done for the current system of cold server rooms?</p><p>1- Mechanical wear (colder = looser fit);<br>2- Employee discomfort;<br>3- Part failure*</p><p>* In a large server center, I doubt those 15 degrees difference would gain you much in reaction time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Has a study like this been done for the current system of cold server rooms ? 1- Mechanical wear ( colder = looser fit ) ; 2- Employee discomfort ; 3- Part failure * * In a large server center , I doubt those 15 degrees difference would gain you much in reaction time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Has a study like this been done for the current system of cold server rooms?1- Mechanical wear (colder = looser fit);2- Employee discomfort;3- Part failure** In a large server center, I doubt those 15 degrees difference would gain you much in reaction time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835039</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834553</id>
	<title>sysadmin</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256222580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>so, this is all good and well, but for us simple sysadmins who run just a few servers in a closet room, what does it mean?</p><p>in my case, I have 8 servers and 1 12k btu AC, currently set at 22 degrees celcius.  is this in line with the recommendations?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>so , this is all good and well , but for us simple sysadmins who run just a few servers in a closet room , what does it mean ? in my case , I have 8 servers and 1 12k btu AC , currently set at 22 degrees celcius .
is this in line with the recommendations ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>so, this is all good and well, but for us simple sysadmins who run just a few servers in a closet room, what does it mean?in my case, I have 8 servers and 1 12k btu AC, currently set at 22 degrees celcius.
is this in line with the recommendations?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29837215</id>
	<title>Re:Possible strategy</title>
	<author>herring0</author>
	<datestamp>1256235300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We used the Sensatronics EM1 which is connected to the network and monitor it with several things.  The EM1 interface is very simple and one of the monitors is just a cron job that scrapes the output from the web interface and will shutdown some of our more sensative equipment if it gets too hot.</p><p>They also have a bevy of interfaces from commercial products and the couple of monitoring/notification systems we tested were all able to communicate with the EM1 without any problems.</p><p>The total cost for the EM1 and several temp and temp+humidity probes was less than 700$ USD.  If you don't care about multiple probes you could probably get it for under 500$ USD.</p><p><a href="http://www.sensatronics.com/" title="sensatronics.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.sensatronics.com/</a> [sensatronics.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We used the Sensatronics EM1 which is connected to the network and monitor it with several things .
The EM1 interface is very simple and one of the monitors is just a cron job that scrapes the output from the web interface and will shutdown some of our more sensative equipment if it gets too hot.They also have a bevy of interfaces from commercial products and the couple of monitoring/notification systems we tested were all able to communicate with the EM1 without any problems.The total cost for the EM1 and several temp and temp + humidity probes was less than 700 $ USD .
If you do n't care about multiple probes you could probably get it for under 500 $ USD.http : //www.sensatronics.com/ [ sensatronics.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We used the Sensatronics EM1 which is connected to the network and monitor it with several things.
The EM1 interface is very simple and one of the monitors is just a cron job that scrapes the output from the web interface and will shutdown some of our more sensative equipment if it gets too hot.They also have a bevy of interfaces from commercial products and the couple of monitoring/notification systems we tested were all able to communicate with the EM1 without any problems.The total cost for the EM1 and several temp and temp+humidity probes was less than 700$ USD.
If you don't care about multiple probes you could probably get it for under 500$ USD.http://www.sensatronics.com/ [sensatronics.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834843</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834707</id>
	<title>Ducted cabinets</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256223840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>So what about having ductwork as another utility that is brought to each individual server? Rather than having thousands of tiny inefficient fans whirring away, you could have a redundant farm of large efficient fans that pull in cool air from outside (cooling only required then in hot climates or summer) and duct it under the floor in individual efficient ducts to each cabinet.Each cabinet would then have integral duct-work that would connect to individual servers. The servers would then have integral duct-work that would route the air to the critical components. There would have to be a similar system of return-air duct-work that would ultimately route back to another redundant farm of large efficient fans that scavenge the heated air and dump it outside.

<p>

I realise that this is not something that could be done quickly, it would require co-operation from all major vendors and then only if it would actually end up being more efficient overall. There would be lots of hurdles to overcome too... Efficient ducting (no jagged edges or corners like int domestic HVAC ductwork), no leaks, easy interconnects, space requirements, rerouting away from inactive equipment etc etc etc.You would still need some ac in the room as there is bound to be heat leakage from the duct-work, as well as heat given off from less critical components, but the level of cooling required would be much less if the bulk of the heat was ducted straight outside.
</p><p>
So I know the implementation of something like this would be monumental, requiring redesigning of servers, racks, cabinets and general DC layout. It would probably require standards to be laid out so that any server will work in any cab etc (like current rackmount equipment is fairly universally compatible), but after this conversion, could it be more efficient and pay off in the long run?
</p><p>
Just thinking out loud.
</p><p>
Tom...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So what about having ductwork as another utility that is brought to each individual server ?
Rather than having thousands of tiny inefficient fans whirring away , you could have a redundant farm of large efficient fans that pull in cool air from outside ( cooling only required then in hot climates or summer ) and duct it under the floor in individual efficient ducts to each cabinet.Each cabinet would then have integral duct-work that would connect to individual servers .
The servers would then have integral duct-work that would route the air to the critical components .
There would have to be a similar system of return-air duct-work that would ultimately route back to another redundant farm of large efficient fans that scavenge the heated air and dump it outside .
I realise that this is not something that could be done quickly , it would require co-operation from all major vendors and then only if it would actually end up being more efficient overall .
There would be lots of hurdles to overcome too... Efficient ducting ( no jagged edges or corners like int domestic HVAC ductwork ) , no leaks , easy interconnects , space requirements , rerouting away from inactive equipment etc etc etc.You would still need some ac in the room as there is bound to be heat leakage from the duct-work , as well as heat given off from less critical components , but the level of cooling required would be much less if the bulk of the heat was ducted straight outside .
So I know the implementation of something like this would be monumental , requiring redesigning of servers , racks , cabinets and general DC layout .
It would probably require standards to be laid out so that any server will work in any cab etc ( like current rackmount equipment is fairly universally compatible ) , but after this conversion , could it be more efficient and pay off in the long run ?
Just thinking out loud .
Tom.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So what about having ductwork as another utility that is brought to each individual server?
Rather than having thousands of tiny inefficient fans whirring away, you could have a redundant farm of large efficient fans that pull in cool air from outside (cooling only required then in hot climates or summer) and duct it under the floor in individual efficient ducts to each cabinet.Each cabinet would then have integral duct-work that would connect to individual servers.
The servers would then have integral duct-work that would route the air to the critical components.
There would have to be a similar system of return-air duct-work that would ultimately route back to another redundant farm of large efficient fans that scavenge the heated air and dump it outside.
I realise that this is not something that could be done quickly, it would require co-operation from all major vendors and then only if it would actually end up being more efficient overall.
There would be lots of hurdles to overcome too... Efficient ducting (no jagged edges or corners like int domestic HVAC ductwork), no leaks, easy interconnects, space requirements, rerouting away from inactive equipment etc etc etc.You would still need some ac in the room as there is bound to be heat leakage from the duct-work, as well as heat given off from less critical components, but the level of cooling required would be much less if the bulk of the heat was ducted straight outside.
So I know the implementation of something like this would be monumental, requiring redesigning of servers, racks, cabinets and general DC layout.
It would probably require standards to be laid out so that any server will work in any cab etc (like current rackmount equipment is fairly universally compatible), but after this conversion, could it be more efficient and pay off in the long run?
Just thinking out loud.
Tom...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834543</id>
	<title>The Risks and Rewards of 'Warner' Data Centers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256222520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I read that as "The Risks and Rewards of Warner Data Centers", see the previous news item, "Time Warner Cable Modems Expose Users"</p><p>I'm getting old.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I read that as " The Risks and Rewards of Warner Data Centers " , see the previous news item , " Time Warner Cable Modems Expose Users " I 'm getting old .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I read that as "The Risks and Rewards of Warner Data Centers", see the previous news item, "Time Warner Cable Modems Expose Users"I'm getting old.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834609</id>
	<title>Re:What about HDDs?</title>
	<author>spxero</author>
	<datestamp>1256223060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>[Citation Needed]</p><p>Here's a few links to the contrary:<br><a href="http://www.tomshardware.com/news/google-hard-drives,4347.html" title="tomshardware.com">http://www.tomshardware.com/news/google-hard-drives,4347.html</a> [tomshardware.com]<br><a href="http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:\%20/2007/02/20/googles-hard-disk-study-shows-temperature-is-not-as-important-as-once-thought/" title="blorge.com">http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:\%20/2007/02/20/googles-hard-disk-study-shows-temperature-is-not-as-important-as-once-thought/</a> [blorge.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>[ Citation Needed ] Here 's a few links to the contrary : http : //www.tomshardware.com/news/google-hard-drives,4347.html [ tomshardware.com ] http : //tech.blorge.com/Structure : \ % 20/2007/02/20/googles-hard-disk-study-shows-temperature-is-not-as-important-as-once-thought/ [ blorge.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>[Citation Needed]Here's a few links to the contrary:http://www.tomshardware.com/news/google-hard-drives,4347.html [tomshardware.com]http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:\%20/2007/02/20/googles-hard-disk-study-shows-temperature-is-not-as-important-as-once-thought/ [blorge.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834529</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29851173</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>cthulhu11</author>
	<datestamp>1256290320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh yeah, that "Clever venting" worked out so well for the original 128K Macintosh after all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh yeah , that " Clever venting " worked out so well for the original 128K Macintosh after all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh yeah, that "Clever venting" worked out so well for the original 128K Macintosh after all.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29837991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29837371</id>
	<title>Re:Possible strategy</title>
	<author>Nyeerrmm</author>
	<datestamp>1256235900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You don't need anything as complicated as a genetic algorithm.  You have a defined control (thermostat), a defined state (temperature), some external but relatively predictable variables (outside temperature and server load), and a decent model (should be a straightforward ODE) that defines the relationship between those.  Define a cost function, balancing the need to keep both temperatures and energy costs low, and you've got a very straightforward optimal control problem.</p><p>Because its continuous, not particularly chaotic, and has a limited number of states and controls, basic Lagrangian optimal control methods should be very effective -- they also are little more than solving a set ODEs, and with low precision requirements its computationally easy.  GAs are great for very complex problems with discrete components or highly non-linear chaotic components, but are overkill for this kind of problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't need anything as complicated as a genetic algorithm .
You have a defined control ( thermostat ) , a defined state ( temperature ) , some external but relatively predictable variables ( outside temperature and server load ) , and a decent model ( should be a straightforward ODE ) that defines the relationship between those .
Define a cost function , balancing the need to keep both temperatures and energy costs low , and you 've got a very straightforward optimal control problem.Because its continuous , not particularly chaotic , and has a limited number of states and controls , basic Lagrangian optimal control methods should be very effective -- they also are little more than solving a set ODEs , and with low precision requirements its computationally easy .
GAs are great for very complex problems with discrete components or highly non-linear chaotic components , but are overkill for this kind of problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't need anything as complicated as a genetic algorithm.
You have a defined control (thermostat), a defined state (temperature), some external but relatively predictable variables (outside temperature and server load), and a decent model (should be a straightforward ODE) that defines the relationship between those.
Define a cost function, balancing the need to keep both temperatures and energy costs low, and you've got a very straightforward optimal control problem.Because its continuous, not particularly chaotic, and has a limited number of states and controls, basic Lagrangian optimal control methods should be very effective -- they also are little more than solving a set ODEs, and with low precision requirements its computationally easy.
GAs are great for very complex problems with discrete components or highly non-linear chaotic components, but are overkill for this kind of problem.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834507</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834635</id>
	<title>we can just use geeks as a heatsink...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256223240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>oh wait, you mean the coal, chemical, oil, and nuclear companies already have heated the rivers up and killed a bunch of fish? damnit.</p><p>maybe we can use people as a heatsink? 'help wanted, must love drinking water and pee-ing'</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>oh wait , you mean the coal , chemical , oil , and nuclear companies already have heated the rivers up and killed a bunch of fish ?
damnit.maybe we can use people as a heatsink ?
'help wanted , must love drinking water and pee-ing'</tokentext>
<sentencetext>oh wait, you mean the coal, chemical, oil, and nuclear companies already have heated the rivers up and killed a bunch of fish?
damnit.maybe we can use people as a heatsink?
'help wanted, must love drinking water and pee-ing'</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29836315</id>
	<title>Risk of AC failure</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256231340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If there is a failure of AC<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... that is, either Air Conditioning OR Alternating Current, you can see a rapid rise in temperature.  With all the systems powered off, the latent heat inside the equipment, which is much higher than the room temperature, emerges and raises the room temperature rapidly.  And if the equipment is still powered (via UPS when the power fails), the rise is much faster.</p><p>In a large data center I once worked at, with 8 mainframes and 1800 servers, power to the entire building failed after several ups and downs in the first minute.  The power company was able to tell us within 20 minutes that it looked like a "several hours" outage.  We didn't have the UPS capacity for that long, so we started a massive shutdown.  Fortunately it was all automated and the last servers finished their current jobs and powered off in another 20 minutes.  In that 40 minutes, the server room, normally kept around 17C, was up to a whopping 33C.  And even with everything powered off, it peaked at 38C after another 20 minutes.  If it weren't so dark in there I think some people would have been starting a sauna.</p><p>We had about 40 hard drive failures and 12 power supply failures coming back up that evening.  And one of the mainframes had some issues.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If there is a failure of AC ... that is , either Air Conditioning OR Alternating Current , you can see a rapid rise in temperature .
With all the systems powered off , the latent heat inside the equipment , which is much higher than the room temperature , emerges and raises the room temperature rapidly .
And if the equipment is still powered ( via UPS when the power fails ) , the rise is much faster.In a large data center I once worked at , with 8 mainframes and 1800 servers , power to the entire building failed after several ups and downs in the first minute .
The power company was able to tell us within 20 minutes that it looked like a " several hours " outage .
We did n't have the UPS capacity for that long , so we started a massive shutdown .
Fortunately it was all automated and the last servers finished their current jobs and powered off in another 20 minutes .
In that 40 minutes , the server room , normally kept around 17C , was up to a whopping 33C .
And even with everything powered off , it peaked at 38C after another 20 minutes .
If it were n't so dark in there I think some people would have been starting a sauna.We had about 40 hard drive failures and 12 power supply failures coming back up that evening .
And one of the mainframes had some issues .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If there is a failure of AC ... that is, either Air Conditioning OR Alternating Current, you can see a rapid rise in temperature.
With all the systems powered off, the latent heat inside the equipment, which is much higher than the room temperature, emerges and raises the room temperature rapidly.
And if the equipment is still powered (via UPS when the power fails), the rise is much faster.In a large data center I once worked at, with 8 mainframes and 1800 servers, power to the entire building failed after several ups and downs in the first minute.
The power company was able to tell us within 20 minutes that it looked like a "several hours" outage.
We didn't have the UPS capacity for that long, so we started a massive shutdown.
Fortunately it was all automated and the last servers finished their current jobs and powered off in another 20 minutes.
In that 40 minutes, the server room, normally kept around 17C, was up to a whopping 33C.
And even with everything powered off, it peaked at 38C after another 20 minutes.
If it weren't so dark in there I think some people would have been starting a sauna.We had about 40 hard drive failures and 12 power supply failures coming back up that evening.
And one of the mainframes had some issues.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834785</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>GargamelSpaceman</author>
	<datestamp>1256224440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It seems to me that computers produce X BTUs of energy that must be taken out of the server room.  They will produce this energy regardless of the temperature in the server room.  So... with great insulation around the room, the temperature INSIDE the room should not matter much with regards to the cost of keeping it cold.  I think you'd want a temperature where the fans never come on at all ideally.   How about making the server room a large dewar flask and fill it with liquid nitrogen and running servers?   Why should it cost any more to maintain the room at 0 degrees than it would to maintain the room at 100 degrees.  I would expect quite the opposite ( with great insulation AROUND the room. )</htmltext>
<tokenext>It seems to me that computers produce X BTUs of energy that must be taken out of the server room .
They will produce this energy regardless of the temperature in the server room .
So... with great insulation around the room , the temperature INSIDE the room should not matter much with regards to the cost of keeping it cold .
I think you 'd want a temperature where the fans never come on at all ideally .
How about making the server room a large dewar flask and fill it with liquid nitrogen and running servers ?
Why should it cost any more to maintain the room at 0 degrees than it would to maintain the room at 100 degrees .
I would expect quite the opposite ( with great insulation AROUND the room .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It seems to me that computers produce X BTUs of energy that must be taken out of the server room.
They will produce this energy regardless of the temperature in the server room.
So... with great insulation around the room, the temperature INSIDE the room should not matter much with regards to the cost of keeping it cold.
I think you'd want a temperature where the fans never come on at all ideally.
How about making the server room a large dewar flask and fill it with liquid nitrogen and running servers?
Why should it cost any more to maintain the room at 0 degrees than it would to maintain the room at 100 degrees.
I would expect quite the opposite ( with great insulation AROUND the room.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834425</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835993</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>WhatAmIDoingHere</author>
	<datestamp>1256229900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>"You loose your energy savings.." <br> <br>So all you have to do is tighten those savings and you'll be fine.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" You loose your energy savings.. " So all you have to do is tighten those savings and you 'll be fine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"You loose your energy savings.."  So all you have to do is tighten those savings and you'll be fine.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834755</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834529</id>
	<title>What about HDDs?</title>
	<author>headhot</author>
	<datestamp>1256222460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Google did a study that said the MTBF for HDD decreases significantly with each warmer degree of temperature.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Google did a study that said the MTBF for HDD decreases significantly with each warmer degree of temperature .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Google did a study that said the MTBF for HDD decreases significantly with each warmer degree of temperature.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834887</id>
	<title>Hardware upgrades probably nullify the problems</title>
	<author>Yvan256</author>
	<datestamp>1256225040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you save enery by having warmer data centers, but that it shortens the MTBF, is it really that big of a deal?</p><p>Let's say the hardware is rated for five years. Let's say that running it hotter than the recommended specifications shortens that to three years.</p><p>But in three years, new and more efficient hardware will probably replace it anyway because it will require, let's say, 150 watts instead of 200 watts, so the old hardware would get replaced anyway because the new hardware will cost less to run in those lost two years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you save enery by having warmer data centers , but that it shortens the MTBF , is it really that big of a deal ? Let 's say the hardware is rated for five years .
Let 's say that running it hotter than the recommended specifications shortens that to three years.But in three years , new and more efficient hardware will probably replace it anyway because it will require , let 's say , 150 watts instead of 200 watts , so the old hardware would get replaced anyway because the new hardware will cost less to run in those lost two years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you save enery by having warmer data centers, but that it shortens the MTBF, is it really that big of a deal?Let's say the hardware is rated for five years.
Let's say that running it hotter than the recommended specifications shortens that to three years.But in three years, new and more efficient hardware will probably replace it anyway because it will require, let's say, 150 watts instead of 200 watts, so the old hardware would get replaced anyway because the new hardware will cost less to run in those lost two years.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29843267</id>
	<title>Re:Risk of AC failure</title>
	<author>zerocool^</author>
	<datestamp>1256240280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Generators, man.</p><p>You need to invest in power switching equipment and generators; probably a couple of 1MWatt generators.  They're big 16 cyl. diesel engines sitting on top of multi-hundred gallon fuel tanks that can be refueled while in operation.</p><p>Your UPS cluster should be able to take the load of the building for 20-30 seconds, long enough for the generator to spin up for load.  Good generators can spin up in 5-7 seconds.</p><p>Good Grief, I can't imagine a UPS cluster capable of sustaining a datacenter for 40 minutes.  Not that 16 cyl diesel engines are that eco-friendly, but think of all the lead-acid and bad chemicals in 40 minutes x 1MW of UPS?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Generators , man.You need to invest in power switching equipment and generators ; probably a couple of 1MWatt generators .
They 're big 16 cyl .
diesel engines sitting on top of multi-hundred gallon fuel tanks that can be refueled while in operation.Your UPS cluster should be able to take the load of the building for 20-30 seconds , long enough for the generator to spin up for load .
Good generators can spin up in 5-7 seconds.Good Grief , I ca n't imagine a UPS cluster capable of sustaining a datacenter for 40 minutes .
Not that 16 cyl diesel engines are that eco-friendly , but think of all the lead-acid and bad chemicals in 40 minutes x 1MW of UPS ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Generators, man.You need to invest in power switching equipment and generators; probably a couple of 1MWatt generators.
They're big 16 cyl.
diesel engines sitting on top of multi-hundred gallon fuel tanks that can be refueled while in operation.Your UPS cluster should be able to take the load of the building for 20-30 seconds, long enough for the generator to spin up for load.
Good generators can spin up in 5-7 seconds.Good Grief, I can't imagine a UPS cluster capable of sustaining a datacenter for 40 minutes.
Not that 16 cyl diesel engines are that eco-friendly, but think of all the lead-acid and bad chemicals in 40 minutes x 1MW of UPS?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29836315</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29860801</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>toddestan</author>
	<datestamp>1256388420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Go ahead and try it. A lot of cases already have ducting that funnels air directly from outside the case to the CPU. A few more pieces of cardboard, a hole and chimney in the top of your case, and you should be ready to remove the fan and see what convection can do for you. Sneak preview: unless you've specifically picked components that can run off passive cooling, you'll be in the market for a new one. Especially if you live in a hot place and turn off your AC for this experiment.</p></div></blockquote><p>Actually, Apple tried this with the G4 cube.  It more or less worked, but ran awfully hot which tended to make them less reliable than their PowerMac tower cousins. Not to mention the heat caused cracks in the case, which certainly didn't help much for a computer that people bought mostly for its looks.</p><p>Apple had better luck with convection on the early iMacs though, using the heat from the CRT to generate enough convection to cool the rest of the computer.  The only problem with that design was that the iMac could not shut off the CRT as a power saving feature as it depended upon it for cooling.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Go ahead and try it .
A lot of cases already have ducting that funnels air directly from outside the case to the CPU .
A few more pieces of cardboard , a hole and chimney in the top of your case , and you should be ready to remove the fan and see what convection can do for you .
Sneak preview : unless you 've specifically picked components that can run off passive cooling , you 'll be in the market for a new one .
Especially if you live in a hot place and turn off your AC for this experiment.Actually , Apple tried this with the G4 cube .
It more or less worked , but ran awfully hot which tended to make them less reliable than their PowerMac tower cousins .
Not to mention the heat caused cracks in the case , which certainly did n't help much for a computer that people bought mostly for its looks.Apple had better luck with convection on the early iMacs though , using the heat from the CRT to generate enough convection to cool the rest of the computer .
The only problem with that design was that the iMac could not shut off the CRT as a power saving feature as it depended upon it for cooling .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Go ahead and try it.
A lot of cases already have ducting that funnels air directly from outside the case to the CPU.
A few more pieces of cardboard, a hole and chimney in the top of your case, and you should be ready to remove the fan and see what convection can do for you.
Sneak preview: unless you've specifically picked components that can run off passive cooling, you'll be in the market for a new one.
Especially if you live in a hot place and turn off your AC for this experiment.Actually, Apple tried this with the G4 cube.
It more or less worked, but ran awfully hot which tended to make them less reliable than their PowerMac tower cousins.
Not to mention the heat caused cracks in the case, which certainly didn't help much for a computer that people bought mostly for its looks.Apple had better luck with convection on the early iMacs though, using the heat from the CRT to generate enough convection to cool the rest of the computer.
The only problem with that design was that the iMac could not shut off the CRT as a power saving feature as it depended upon it for cooling.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29841267</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834677</id>
	<title>Re:What about HDDs?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256223540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Until what point? You can't consistently say "increase the temperature to decrease the MTBF".</p><p>You'll end up with molten slag.</p></div><p>Yes, you can.  MTBF = mean time before/between failure.  To decrease, reduce, lower, however you want to say it, it is going to fail SOONER meaning it is getting LESS reliable.  That was the point, hotter temps = less reliability.  Same goes for just about any physical/chemical process (fans, batteries, hard drive motors, etc.)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Until what point ?
You ca n't consistently say " increase the temperature to decrease the MTBF " .You 'll end up with molten slag.Yes , you can .
MTBF = mean time before/between failure .
To decrease , reduce , lower , however you want to say it , it is going to fail SOONER meaning it is getting LESS reliable .
That was the point , hotter temps = less reliability .
Same goes for just about any physical/chemical process ( fans , batteries , hard drive motors , etc .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Until what point?
You can't consistently say "increase the temperature to decrease the MTBF".You'll end up with molten slag.Yes, you can.
MTBF = mean time before/between failure.
To decrease, reduce, lower, however you want to say it, it is going to fail SOONER meaning it is getting LESS reliable.
That was the point, hotter temps = less reliability.
Same goes for just about any physical/chemical process (fans, batteries, hard drive motors, etc.
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834613</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834877</id>
	<title>Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Midnight Thunder</author>
	<datestamp>1256224980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I know it was meant as a joke, but moving to colder climates may not be such a bad idea. Moving to a northern country such as Canada or Norway, you would benefit from the colder outside temperature, in the winter, to keep the servers cool and then any heat produced could be funnelled to keeping nearby buildings warm. The real challenge will be keeping any humidity out, but considering how dry the air during the winters can get there it may not be any issue.</p><p>All this said and done, trying to work out the sweet spot between not cooling a room to save energy and not having the server fans turn on is important. I would be curious to know if there are any solutions that allow the system temperature monitors to be linked into a central system, which is then linked to the room's climate control system exist?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know it was meant as a joke , but moving to colder climates may not be such a bad idea .
Moving to a northern country such as Canada or Norway , you would benefit from the colder outside temperature , in the winter , to keep the servers cool and then any heat produced could be funnelled to keeping nearby buildings warm .
The real challenge will be keeping any humidity out , but considering how dry the air during the winters can get there it may not be any issue.All this said and done , trying to work out the sweet spot between not cooling a room to save energy and not having the server fans turn on is important .
I would be curious to know if there are any solutions that allow the system temperature monitors to be linked into a central system , which is then linked to the room 's climate control system exist ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know it was meant as a joke, but moving to colder climates may not be such a bad idea.
Moving to a northern country such as Canada or Norway, you would benefit from the colder outside temperature, in the winter, to keep the servers cool and then any heat produced could be funnelled to keeping nearby buildings warm.
The real challenge will be keeping any humidity out, but considering how dry the air during the winters can get there it may not be any issue.All this said and done, trying to work out the sweet spot between not cooling a room to save energy and not having the server fans turn on is important.
I would be curious to know if there are any solutions that allow the system temperature monitors to be linked into a central system, which is then linked to the room's climate control system exist?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834425</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835861</id>
	<title>Warmer, better, faster...</title>
	<author>pckl300</author>
	<datestamp>1256229420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I was at a Google presentation on this last night. If I remember correctly, I believe they found the 'ideal' temperature for running server hardware without decreasing lifespan to be about 45 C.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I was at a Google presentation on this last night .
If I remember correctly , I believe they found the 'ideal ' temperature for running server hardware without decreasing lifespan to be about 45 C .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was at a Google presentation on this last night.
If I remember correctly, I believe they found the 'ideal' temperature for running server hardware without decreasing lifespan to be about 45 C.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29838623</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256241240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The most important part is your employees that have to work all day in that room. Raise the temp and all the people work slower and it costs you more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The most important part is your employees that have to work all day in that room .
Raise the temp and all the people work slower and it costs you more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The most important part is your employees that have to work all day in that room.
Raise the temp and all the people work slower and it costs you more.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834785</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835061</id>
	<title>Re:Possible strategy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256225940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>1. Get a thermostat you can control with a computer
2. Give the computer inputs of temperature and energy use, and output of heating/cooling
3. Write a program to minimize energy use (genetic algorithm?)
4. Profit!!</p><p>Possible problem: do we need to factor in some increased wear &amp; tear on the machines for higher temperatures? That would complicate things.</p></div><p>Eh, don't bother factoring in the wear and tear. See, then, the genetic algorithm will find that the most energy efficient setting is AC off... then, when the servers overheat all and die, that's even LESS energy used!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
Get a thermostat you can control with a computer 2 .
Give the computer inputs of temperature and energy use , and output of heating/cooling 3 .
Write a program to minimize energy use ( genetic algorithm ?
) 4 .
Profit ! ! Possible problem : do we need to factor in some increased wear &amp; tear on the machines for higher temperatures ?
That would complicate things.Eh , do n't bother factoring in the wear and tear .
See , then , the genetic algorithm will find that the most energy efficient setting is AC off... then , when the servers overheat all and die , that 's even LESS energy used !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
Get a thermostat you can control with a computer
2.
Give the computer inputs of temperature and energy use, and output of heating/cooling
3.
Write a program to minimize energy use (genetic algorithm?
)
4.
Profit!!Possible problem: do we need to factor in some increased wear &amp; tear on the machines for higher temperatures?
That would complicate things.Eh, don't bother factoring in the wear and tear.
See, then, the genetic algorithm will find that the most energy efficient setting is AC off... then, when the servers overheat all and die, that's even LESS energy used!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834507</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835361</id>
	<title>Time to recover</title>
	<author>afidel</author>
	<datestamp>1256227380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes, but if you have the room at the tipping point what does this do to your ability to recover from a fault? I know one reason many datacenters have experienced outages even with redundant systems is that the AC equipment is almost never on UPS and so it takes some time for them to recover after switching to generators. If you are running 10F hotter doesn't that mean you have that much less time for the AC to recover before you start experiencing problems? For a large company with redundant datacenters or in Cisco's case where they are mostly development labs it probably is worth the risk, but for your average small to midsized corporate datacenter it's probably smarter to stay with the tried and true.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , but if you have the room at the tipping point what does this do to your ability to recover from a fault ?
I know one reason many datacenters have experienced outages even with redundant systems is that the AC equipment is almost never on UPS and so it takes some time for them to recover after switching to generators .
If you are running 10F hotter does n't that mean you have that much less time for the AC to recover before you start experiencing problems ?
For a large company with redundant datacenters or in Cisco 's case where they are mostly development labs it probably is worth the risk , but for your average small to midsized corporate datacenter it 's probably smarter to stay with the tried and true .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, but if you have the room at the tipping point what does this do to your ability to recover from a fault?
I know one reason many datacenters have experienced outages even with redundant systems is that the AC equipment is almost never on UPS and so it takes some time for them to recover after switching to generators.
If you are running 10F hotter doesn't that mean you have that much less time for the AC to recover before you start experiencing problems?
For a large company with redundant datacenters or in Cisco's case where they are mostly development labs it probably is worth the risk, but for your average small to midsized corporate datacenter it's probably smarter to stay with the tried and true.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29842683</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>VolciMaster</author>
	<datestamp>1256230020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Nowhere on earth is so hot that servers won't run, unless you've built a server room over an active volcano or something.</p></div></blockquote><p>..and then they wonder why they have LAVA in the LIVING ROOM!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Nowhere on earth is so hot that servers wo n't run , unless you 've built a server room over an active volcano or something...and then they wonder why they have LAVA in the LIVING ROOM !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nowhere on earth is so hot that servers won't run, unless you've built a server room over an active volcano or something...and then they wonder why they have LAVA in the LIVING ROOM!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29837991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835059</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256225940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is true that if you are producing X BTUs of heat inside the room, then to maintain temperature, you have to pump that much heat out. However, the efficiency of this heat transfer depends on the temperature difference between the inside and the outside. To the extent you want to force air (or any other heat transfer medium) that is already colder than outside to dump energy into air (or other medium) that is warmer, that will cost you energy.</p><p>Also, too cold, and you will invite condensation. In your hypothetical scenario, you'd need to run some pretty powerful air conditioning to prevent condensation from forming everywhere.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is true that if you are producing X BTUs of heat inside the room , then to maintain temperature , you have to pump that much heat out .
However , the efficiency of this heat transfer depends on the temperature difference between the inside and the outside .
To the extent you want to force air ( or any other heat transfer medium ) that is already colder than outside to dump energy into air ( or other medium ) that is warmer , that will cost you energy.Also , too cold , and you will invite condensation .
In your hypothetical scenario , you 'd need to run some pretty powerful air conditioning to prevent condensation from forming everywhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is true that if you are producing X BTUs of heat inside the room, then to maintain temperature, you have to pump that much heat out.
However, the efficiency of this heat transfer depends on the temperature difference between the inside and the outside.
To the extent you want to force air (or any other heat transfer medium) that is already colder than outside to dump energy into air (or other medium) that is warmer, that will cost you energy.Also, too cold, and you will invite condensation.
In your hypothetical scenario, you'd need to run some pretty powerful air conditioning to prevent condensation from forming everywhere.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834785</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29837509</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>ElSupreme</author>
	<datestamp>1256236440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You get better efficiency with trying to cool a warmer enviroment. And you get better efficiency trying to cool with a colder outside temperature. The the smaller the delta T (assuming Cooler inside, warmer outside) the better your efficency.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You get better efficiency with trying to cool a warmer enviroment .
And you get better efficiency trying to cool with a colder outside temperature .
The the smaller the delta T ( assuming Cooler inside , warmer outside ) the better your efficency .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You get better efficiency with trying to cool a warmer enviroment.
And you get better efficiency trying to cool with a colder outside temperature.
The the smaller the delta T (assuming Cooler inside, warmer outside) the better your efficency.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834785</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29836841</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>Mr. Freeman</author>
	<datestamp>1256233680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Why should it cost any more to maintain the room at 0 degrees than it would to maintain the room at 100 degrees. I would expect quite the opposite ( with great insulation AROUND the room. )"<br>Yeah, therein lies the problem.  This "great insulation":<br>A) Doesn't exist.<br>B) Is horrendously expensive.<br><br>Yes, in an ideal environment this makes sense, but we're not working in one.  You have energy leak in from the outside.  In addition to that, there's no device that can move energy ideally.  There's inefficiencies in every thing.  Heaters, fans, air conditioning, etc.  This causes further energy "losses".<br><br>It reminds me of a joke.  A farmer goes to a physicist and says "I want to know if a chicken lays an egg on a roof, which way will it roll.  Do you have an equation for this".  The physicist thinks on this for awhile and then says "I do, but it only works for perfectly spherical chickens in a vacuum".<br><br>We have thermodynamic equations to model things like server rooms, but you have two options:<br>1) Make assumptions about things to simplify the equations.<br>2) Take into account everything and make your equations so complicated that they become practically unsolvable</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Why should it cost any more to maintain the room at 0 degrees than it would to maintain the room at 100 degrees .
I would expect quite the opposite ( with great insulation AROUND the room .
) " Yeah , therein lies the problem .
This " great insulation " : A ) Does n't exist.B ) Is horrendously expensive.Yes , in an ideal environment this makes sense , but we 're not working in one .
You have energy leak in from the outside .
In addition to that , there 's no device that can move energy ideally .
There 's inefficiencies in every thing .
Heaters , fans , air conditioning , etc .
This causes further energy " losses " .It reminds me of a joke .
A farmer goes to a physicist and says " I want to know if a chicken lays an egg on a roof , which way will it roll .
Do you have an equation for this " .
The physicist thinks on this for awhile and then says " I do , but it only works for perfectly spherical chickens in a vacuum " .We have thermodynamic equations to model things like server rooms , but you have two options : 1 ) Make assumptions about things to simplify the equations.2 ) Take into account everything and make your equations so complicated that they become practically unsolvable</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Why should it cost any more to maintain the room at 0 degrees than it would to maintain the room at 100 degrees.
I would expect quite the opposite ( with great insulation AROUND the room.
)"Yeah, therein lies the problem.
This "great insulation":A) Doesn't exist.B) Is horrendously expensive.Yes, in an ideal environment this makes sense, but we're not working in one.
You have energy leak in from the outside.
In addition to that, there's no device that can move energy ideally.
There's inefficiencies in every thing.
Heaters, fans, air conditioning, etc.
This causes further energy "losses".It reminds me of a joke.
A farmer goes to a physicist and says "I want to know if a chicken lays an egg on a roof, which way will it roll.
Do you have an equation for this".
The physicist thinks on this for awhile and then says "I do, but it only works for perfectly spherical chickens in a vacuum".We have thermodynamic equations to model things like server rooms, but you have two options:1) Make assumptions about things to simplify the equations.2) Take into account everything and make your equations so complicated that they become practically unsolvable</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834785</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29838401</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>lgw</author>
	<datestamp>1256240040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I always figured the best approach was a combined server room/aquarium.  But that assumes you can train some fish to do your server maintenance.  I hear the octopus is quite smart, and could easily move around inside of cases.  I wonder though, will this provoke cries of "fight octopus outsourcing now!" from the Slashdot crowd?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I always figured the best approach was a combined server room/aquarium .
But that assumes you can train some fish to do your server maintenance .
I hear the octopus is quite smart , and could easily move around inside of cases .
I wonder though , will this provoke cries of " fight octopus outsourcing now !
" from the Slashdot crowd ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I always figured the best approach was a combined server room/aquarium.
But that assumes you can train some fish to do your server maintenance.
I hear the octopus is quite smart, and could easily move around inside of cases.
I wonder though, will this provoke cries of "fight octopus outsourcing now!
" from the Slashdot crowd?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834907</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29836765</id>
	<title>Be very afraid of a study that ...</title>
	<author>Skapare</author>
	<datestamp>1256233380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>describes temperatures using the Fahrenheit scale.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>describes temperatures using the Fahrenheit scale .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>describes temperatures using the Fahrenheit scale.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834827</id>
	<title>Re:Possible strategy</title>
	<author>Monkeedude1212</author>
	<datestamp>1256224680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sadly, in an effort to save money, we hired some developers with little to no experience, and zero credentials. Turns out the program they wrote to control the thermostat eats up so many compute cycles that it visibly raises temperature of whatever machine its running on. So we ran it in the server room, because thats where temperature is most important. However by the time it would adjust the temperature the room would raise 1 Degree. Then it would have to redo its analysis and adjustments.</p><p>Long story short, the building burned down and I'm now unemployed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sadly , in an effort to save money , we hired some developers with little to no experience , and zero credentials .
Turns out the program they wrote to control the thermostat eats up so many compute cycles that it visibly raises temperature of whatever machine its running on .
So we ran it in the server room , because thats where temperature is most important .
However by the time it would adjust the temperature the room would raise 1 Degree .
Then it would have to redo its analysis and adjustments.Long story short , the building burned down and I 'm now unemployed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sadly, in an effort to save money, we hired some developers with little to no experience, and zero credentials.
Turns out the program they wrote to control the thermostat eats up so many compute cycles that it visibly raises temperature of whatever machine its running on.
So we ran it in the server room, because thats where temperature is most important.
However by the time it would adjust the temperature the room would raise 1 Degree.
Then it would have to redo its analysis and adjustments.Long story short, the building burned down and I'm now unemployed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834507</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834773</id>
	<title>Re:Possible strategy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256224320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Erm... Surely you just replace a room thermostat with a CPU temp probe and the <b>biiiiiiig</b> chillers on the back wall with smaller chillers feeding directly into the cases?<br> <br>Feedback loop to turn on the chillers above a certain temp and... Bob's your mother's brother.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Erm... Surely you just replace a room thermostat with a CPU temp probe and the biiiiiiig chillers on the back wall with smaller chillers feeding directly into the cases ?
Feedback loop to turn on the chillers above a certain temp and... Bob 's your mother 's brother .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Erm... Surely you just replace a room thermostat with a CPU temp probe and the biiiiiiig chillers on the back wall with smaller chillers feeding directly into the cases?
Feedback loop to turn on the chillers above a certain temp and... Bob's your mother's brother.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834507</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834849</id>
	<title>Turn fans down?</title>
	<author>RiotingPacifist</author>
	<datestamp>1256224860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I used to have a Pentium 4 Prescott , the truth is processors can run significantly above spec (hell the thing would go above the "max temp" just opening notepad). It's already been shown that higher temps don't break HDD, are the downsides of running the processor a few degrees hotter significant or can they be ignored?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to have a Pentium 4 Prescott , the truth is processors can run significantly above spec ( hell the thing would go above the " max temp " just opening notepad ) .
It 's already been shown that higher temps do n't break HDD , are the downsides of running the processor a few degrees hotter significant or can they be ignored ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to have a Pentium 4 Prescott , the truth is processors can run significantly above spec (hell the thing would go above the "max temp" just opening notepad).
It's already been shown that higher temps don't break HDD, are the downsides of running the processor a few degrees hotter significant or can they be ignored?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29836545</id>
	<title>keep UPS separate and cooler</title>
	<author>speculatrix</author>
	<datestamp>1256232480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>UPS batteries are sealed lead-acid and they definitely benefit from being kept cooler, it's also good to keep them in a separate room, usually close to your main power switching. As far as servers are concerned, I've always been happy with ab ambient room temp of about 22 or 23, provided air-flow is good so you don't get hot-spots, and it makes for a more pleasant working environment (although with remote management I generally don't need to actually work in them for long periods of time).</htmltext>
<tokenext>UPS batteries are sealed lead-acid and they definitely benefit from being kept cooler , it 's also good to keep them in a separate room , usually close to your main power switching .
As far as servers are concerned , I 've always been happy with ab ambient room temp of about 22 or 23 , provided air-flow is good so you do n't get hot-spots , and it makes for a more pleasant working environment ( although with remote management I generally do n't need to actually work in them for long periods of time ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>UPS batteries are sealed lead-acid and they definitely benefit from being kept cooler, it's also good to keep them in a separate room, usually close to your main power switching.
As far as servers are concerned, I've always been happy with ab ambient room temp of about 22 or 23, provided air-flow is good so you don't get hot-spots, and it makes for a more pleasant working environment (although with remote management I generally don't need to actually work in them for long periods of time).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834507</id>
	<title>Possible strategy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256222280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1. Get a thermostat you can control with a computer<br>2. Give the computer inputs of temperature and energy use, and output of heating/cooling<br>3. Write a program to minimize energy use (genetic algorithm?)<br>4. Profit!!</p><p>Possible problem: do we need to factor in some increased wear &amp; tear on the machines for higher temperatures? That would complicate things.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
Get a thermostat you can control with a computer2 .
Give the computer inputs of temperature and energy use , and output of heating/cooling3 .
Write a program to minimize energy use ( genetic algorithm ? ) 4 .
Profit ! ! Possible problem : do we need to factor in some increased wear &amp; tear on the machines for higher temperatures ?
That would complicate things .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
Get a thermostat you can control with a computer2.
Give the computer inputs of temperature and energy use, and output of heating/cooling3.
Write a program to minimize energy use (genetic algorithm?)4.
Profit!!Possible problem: do we need to factor in some increased wear &amp; tear on the machines for higher temperatures?
That would complicate things.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834661</id>
	<title>The internet's not free?</title>
	<author>commodore64\_love</author>
	<datestamp>1256223480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I thought the internet was free (or so people keep telling me).  You mean it actually costs these companies money to maintain the connections???  Wow.  I guess my $15/month bill actually serves a purpose after all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I thought the internet was free ( or so people keep telling me ) .
You mean it actually costs these companies money to maintain the connections ? ? ?
Wow. I guess my $ 15/month bill actually serves a purpose after all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I thought the internet was free (or so people keep telling me).
You mean it actually costs these companies money to maintain the connections???
Wow.  I guess my $15/month bill actually serves a purpose after all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29837201</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>billcopc</author>
	<datestamp>1256235240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You mean like Crays used to have ?</p><p>The problems with water are numerous: leaks, evaporation, rust/corrosion, dead/weak pumps, fungus/algae, even just the weight of all that water can cause big problems and complicate room layouts.</p><p>Air is easy.  A fan is a simple device: it either spins, or it doesn't.  A compressor is also rather simple.  Having fewer failure modes in a system makes it easier to monitor and maintain.</p><p>You also can't just "dispose of the hot water".  It's not like you can leave the cold faucet open, and piss the hot water out as waste.  Water cooling systems are closed loops.  You cool your own water via radiators, which themselves are either passively or actively cooled with fans and peltiers.  You could recirculate the hot water through the building and recycle the heat, but for most datacenters you'd still have a huge thermal surplus that needs to be dissipated.  Heat doesn't just vanish because you have water, it only allows you to move it faster.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You mean like Crays used to have ? The problems with water are numerous : leaks , evaporation , rust/corrosion , dead/weak pumps , fungus/algae , even just the weight of all that water can cause big problems and complicate room layouts.Air is easy .
A fan is a simple device : it either spins , or it does n't .
A compressor is also rather simple .
Having fewer failure modes in a system makes it easier to monitor and maintain.You also ca n't just " dispose of the hot water " .
It 's not like you can leave the cold faucet open , and piss the hot water out as waste .
Water cooling systems are closed loops .
You cool your own water via radiators , which themselves are either passively or actively cooled with fans and peltiers .
You could recirculate the hot water through the building and recycle the heat , but for most datacenters you 'd still have a huge thermal surplus that needs to be dissipated .
Heat does n't just vanish because you have water , it only allows you to move it faster .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You mean like Crays used to have ?The problems with water are numerous: leaks, evaporation, rust/corrosion, dead/weak pumps, fungus/algae, even just the weight of all that water can cause big problems and complicate room layouts.Air is easy.
A fan is a simple device: it either spins, or it doesn't.
A compressor is also rather simple.
Having fewer failure modes in a system makes it easier to monitor and maintain.You also can't just "dispose of the hot water".
It's not like you can leave the cold faucet open, and piss the hot water out as waste.
Water cooling systems are closed loops.
You cool your own water via radiators, which themselves are either passively or actively cooled with fans and peltiers.
You could recirculate the hot water through the building and recycle the heat, but for most datacenters you'd still have a huge thermal surplus that needs to be dissipated.
Heat doesn't just vanish because you have water, it only allows you to move it faster.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835767</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29840505</id>
	<title>Re:Risk of AC failure</title>
	<author>rbcd</author>
	<datestamp>1256207940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; We had about 40 hard drive failures and 12 power supply failures coming back up that evening.</p><p>That could have just been due to an infrequent shut down. Hard drives are known for not being able to spin back up after being run for a very long time, for example.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; We had about 40 hard drive failures and 12 power supply failures coming back up that evening.That could have just been due to an infrequent shut down .
Hard drives are known for not being able to spin back up after being run for a very long time , for example .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; We had about 40 hard drive failures and 12 power supply failures coming back up that evening.That could have just been due to an infrequent shut down.
Hard drives are known for not being able to spin back up after being run for a very long time, for example.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29836315</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834605</id>
	<title>Ok, just how much warmer?</title>
	<author>RyanSpade</author>
	<datestamp>1256223000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'll bite...

We all know that a couple of degrees can save a good bit over a years time. (Somewhere around 5 to 10\% IIRC)

Will a couple of degrees make that much of a difference? Likely not in the general lifespan of the equipment.

Will A LOT of dgrees make a difference? I'm willing to bet so.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll bite.. . We all know that a couple of degrees can save a good bit over a years time .
( Somewhere around 5 to 10 \ % IIRC ) Will a couple of degrees make that much of a difference ?
Likely not in the general lifespan of the equipment .
Will A LOT of dgrees make a difference ?
I 'm willing to bet so .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll bite...

We all know that a couple of degrees can save a good bit over a years time.
(Somewhere around 5 to 10\% IIRC)

Will a couple of degrees make that much of a difference?
Likely not in the general lifespan of the equipment.
Will A LOT of dgrees make a difference?
I'm willing to bet so.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29837577</id>
	<title>Re:Another server room horror story</title>
	<author>bill\_kress</author>
	<datestamp>1256236680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You left out what is usually the best part!</p><p>For his valiant efforts in preventing waste did the bean counter get promoted to VP level or directly to an officer of the company?  Or did he quit (get pushed out) and get a higher paying job elsewhere.  This kind of stupidity never goes unrewarded.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You left out what is usually the best part ! For his valiant efforts in preventing waste did the bean counter get promoted to VP level or directly to an officer of the company ?
Or did he quit ( get pushed out ) and get a higher paying job elsewhere .
This kind of stupidity never goes unrewarded .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You left out what is usually the best part!For his valiant efforts in preventing waste did the bean counter get promoted to VP level or directly to an officer of the company?
Or did he quit (get pushed out) and get a higher paying job elsewhere.
This kind of stupidity never goes unrewarded.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835809</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29837991</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>DavidTC</author>
	<datestamp>1256238180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
I think we're spending way too much time trying to 'cool' things that do not, in fact, need to be cooler than outside. Nowhere on earth is so hot that servers won't run, unless you've built a server room over an active volcano or something.</p><p>
All we <b>actually</b> need to do is remove the heat from the servers to the air, and then keep swapping the air with the outside.</p><p>
Which happens automatically if you let heat out the top and air in the bottom. Even if you have to condition the incoming air to remove moisture, that's cheaper than actually 'cooling' AC. So the second part, replacing the room air, is easy.</p><p>
As for the first, I've always wondered why they don't use chimney-like devices to generate wind naturally and send it though server racks, instead of fans. I think all the heat in a server room could actually, on exit, suck incoming air in fast enough to cool computers if it actually <b>hit</b> the right places on the way in.</p><p>
Heck, this would apply anyway. Instead of having AC vent into server rooms, why not have AC vent into server <b>racks</b>? Hook up the damn AC to the fan vent on each server, blow cold air straight in. The room itself could end not cold at all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think we 're spending way too much time trying to 'cool ' things that do not , in fact , need to be cooler than outside .
Nowhere on earth is so hot that servers wo n't run , unless you 've built a server room over an active volcano or something .
All we actually need to do is remove the heat from the servers to the air , and then keep swapping the air with the outside .
Which happens automatically if you let heat out the top and air in the bottom .
Even if you have to condition the incoming air to remove moisture , that 's cheaper than actually 'cooling ' AC .
So the second part , replacing the room air , is easy .
As for the first , I 've always wondered why they do n't use chimney-like devices to generate wind naturally and send it though server racks , instead of fans .
I think all the heat in a server room could actually , on exit , suck incoming air in fast enough to cool computers if it actually hit the right places on the way in .
Heck , this would apply anyway .
Instead of having AC vent into server rooms , why not have AC vent into server racks ?
Hook up the damn AC to the fan vent on each server , blow cold air straight in .
The room itself could end not cold at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I think we're spending way too much time trying to 'cool' things that do not, in fact, need to be cooler than outside.
Nowhere on earth is so hot that servers won't run, unless you've built a server room over an active volcano or something.
All we actually need to do is remove the heat from the servers to the air, and then keep swapping the air with the outside.
Which happens automatically if you let heat out the top and air in the bottom.
Even if you have to condition the incoming air to remove moisture, that's cheaper than actually 'cooling' AC.
So the second part, replacing the room air, is easy.
As for the first, I've always wondered why they don't use chimney-like devices to generate wind naturally and send it though server racks, instead of fans.
I think all the heat in a server room could actually, on exit, suck incoming air in fast enough to cool computers if it actually hit the right places on the way in.
Heck, this would apply anyway.
Instead of having AC vent into server rooms, why not have AC vent into server racks?
Hook up the damn AC to the fan vent on each server, blow cold air straight in.
The room itself could end not cold at all.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835059</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835767</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>lobiusmoop</author>
	<datestamp>1256228940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Data centers would be much more efficient if blade servers had modular water cooling instead of fans. Water is much better at transferring heat than air. Then you could just remove all the fans from the data center and add a network of water pipes (alongside the spaghetti of  network and power cabling) around the data center. Then just pump cold water in and dispose of the hot water (pretty cheap to do). Should be reasonable safe too really - the water should only be near low-voltage systems really (voltage stepdown should really be happening at a single point in an efficient data center, not at every rack).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Data centers would be much more efficient if blade servers had modular water cooling instead of fans .
Water is much better at transferring heat than air .
Then you could just remove all the fans from the data center and add a network of water pipes ( alongside the spaghetti of network and power cabling ) around the data center .
Then just pump cold water in and dispose of the hot water ( pretty cheap to do ) .
Should be reasonable safe too really - the water should only be near low-voltage systems really ( voltage stepdown should really be happening at a single point in an efficient data center , not at every rack ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Data centers would be much more efficient if blade servers had modular water cooling instead of fans.
Water is much better at transferring heat than air.
Then you could just remove all the fans from the data center and add a network of water pipes (alongside the spaghetti of  network and power cabling) around the data center.
Then just pump cold water in and dispose of the hot water (pretty cheap to do).
Should be reasonable safe too really - the water should only be near low-voltage systems really (voltage stepdown should really be happening at a single point in an efficient data center, not at every rack).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834785</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29853031</id>
	<title>Re:Possible strategy</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1256302680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You mean something like this?<br><a href="http://www.webshop-innovatek.de/shop/Fancontroller/Fan-O-Matic-Familie/Fan-O-Matic-PRO---USB-LCD-Display.html" title="webshop-innovatek.de">http://www.webshop-innovatek.de/shop/Fancontroller/Fan-O-Matic-Familie/Fan-O-Matic-PRO---USB-LCD-Display.html</a> [webshop-innovatek.de]</p><p>Really a great system by the way. (I'm not affiliated, but I used their parts for years. And they have the best support I have ever seen. You can talk directly to their competent engineers in the forums. Only TerraTec comes close in support friendliness.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You mean something like this ? http : //www.webshop-innovatek.de/shop/Fancontroller/Fan-O-Matic-Familie/Fan-O-Matic-PRO---USB-LCD-Display.html [ webshop-innovatek.de ] Really a great system by the way .
( I 'm not affiliated , but I used their parts for years .
And they have the best support I have ever seen .
You can talk directly to their competent engineers in the forums .
Only TerraTec comes close in support friendliness .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You mean something like this?http://www.webshop-innovatek.de/shop/Fancontroller/Fan-O-Matic-Familie/Fan-O-Matic-PRO---USB-LCD-Display.html [webshop-innovatek.de]Really a great system by the way.
(I'm not affiliated, but I used their parts for years.
And they have the best support I have ever seen.
You can talk directly to their competent engineers in the forums.
Only TerraTec comes close in support friendliness.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834507</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29844921</id>
	<title>Re:Ducted cabinets</title>
	<author>Shawndeisi</author>
	<datestamp>1256306100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have a few problems with this strategy...<br>
<br>
You can already use blade servers/chassis which have two fans on IBM BladeCenter H models, and a larger number of smaller fans (8) on the HP C7000 blade chassis (incidentally I believe the C7000 is more efficient than IBM H chassis on average, but it's been a while since I've specced full chassis out).  You can jam 14/16 blades (hp/ibm respectively) into 4 chassis per rack.  The servers have an extremely dense footprint and the newer blades Nehalem procs will virtualize the vast majority of workloads.  Put these chassis into a datacenter with a pressurized cold row (still use existing cooling and raised floor ideas, just put a door preventing cold row from mixing with hot row) and all of the cooled air will have to go through the server and the fan can spin at lower RPMs to cool, but is still there in case of adverse conditions.  You can build extremely efficient racks this way without need for all of the cooperation between vendors that your solution requires.  Lastly, for all of the workloads that you can't virtualize with bladecenters and external storage, you can get large boxen that have large fans in them anyhow, and you wouldn't need too many of these.<br>
<br>
I just don't see the need to make the solution particularly complex when there are already very viable and dependable/reliable strategies to deal with this.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a few problems with this strategy.. . You can already use blade servers/chassis which have two fans on IBM BladeCenter H models , and a larger number of smaller fans ( 8 ) on the HP C7000 blade chassis ( incidentally I believe the C7000 is more efficient than IBM H chassis on average , but it 's been a while since I 've specced full chassis out ) .
You can jam 14/16 blades ( hp/ibm respectively ) into 4 chassis per rack .
The servers have an extremely dense footprint and the newer blades Nehalem procs will virtualize the vast majority of workloads .
Put these chassis into a datacenter with a pressurized cold row ( still use existing cooling and raised floor ideas , just put a door preventing cold row from mixing with hot row ) and all of the cooled air will have to go through the server and the fan can spin at lower RPMs to cool , but is still there in case of adverse conditions .
You can build extremely efficient racks this way without need for all of the cooperation between vendors that your solution requires .
Lastly , for all of the workloads that you ca n't virtualize with bladecenters and external storage , you can get large boxen that have large fans in them anyhow , and you would n't need too many of these .
I just do n't see the need to make the solution particularly complex when there are already very viable and dependable/reliable strategies to deal with this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a few problems with this strategy...

You can already use blade servers/chassis which have two fans on IBM BladeCenter H models, and a larger number of smaller fans (8) on the HP C7000 blade chassis (incidentally I believe the C7000 is more efficient than IBM H chassis on average, but it's been a while since I've specced full chassis out).
You can jam 14/16 blades (hp/ibm respectively) into 4 chassis per rack.
The servers have an extremely dense footprint and the newer blades Nehalem procs will virtualize the vast majority of workloads.
Put these chassis into a datacenter with a pressurized cold row (still use existing cooling and raised floor ideas, just put a door preventing cold row from mixing with hot row) and all of the cooled air will have to go through the server and the fan can spin at lower RPMs to cool, but is still there in case of adverse conditions.
You can build extremely efficient racks this way without need for all of the cooperation between vendors that your solution requires.
Lastly, for all of the workloads that you can't virtualize with bladecenters and external storage, you can get large boxen that have large fans in them anyhow, and you wouldn't need too many of these.
I just don't see the need to make the solution particularly complex when there are already very viable and dependable/reliable strategies to deal with this.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834707</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29836457</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>xaxa</author>
	<datestamp>1256232180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Very high altitude, very cold, very low humidity -- you regularly lose hard drives from head crashes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Very high altitude , very cold , very low humidity -- you regularly lose hard drives from head crashes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Very high altitude, very cold, very low humidity -- you regularly lose hard drives from head crashes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834425</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834581</id>
	<title>A little bit unclear</title>
	<author>sunking2</author>
	<datestamp>1256222880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sure, the fans kick in and you aren't saving as much, but are you still saving? I suspect you still are, there is a reason you are told to run ceiling fans in your house even with the AC on.<br> <br>
The thermal modeling for all this isn't that difficult. You can get power consumption, fan speeds, temp, etc and feed them into a pretty accurate plant model that should be able to on the fly adjust temperature for optimal efficiency. Or I guess we can hire company to form a bunch of committees to do a bunch of studies and come up with a bunch of papers that state the obvious.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure , the fans kick in and you are n't saving as much , but are you still saving ?
I suspect you still are , there is a reason you are told to run ceiling fans in your house even with the AC on .
The thermal modeling for all this is n't that difficult .
You can get power consumption , fan speeds , temp , etc and feed them into a pretty accurate plant model that should be able to on the fly adjust temperature for optimal efficiency .
Or I guess we can hire company to form a bunch of committees to do a bunch of studies and come up with a bunch of papers that state the obvious .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure, the fans kick in and you aren't saving as much, but are you still saving?
I suspect you still are, there is a reason you are told to run ceiling fans in your house even with the AC on.
The thermal modeling for all this isn't that difficult.
You can get power consumption, fan speeds, temp, etc and feed them into a pretty accurate plant model that should be able to on the fly adjust temperature for optimal efficiency.
Or I guess we can hire company to form a bunch of committees to do a bunch of studies and come up with a bunch of papers that state the obvious.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29851867</id>
	<title>Re:Possible strategy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256293440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Best bet (if off the shelf is too expensive) is an arduino or other beginner friendly microcontroller board.</p><p>I know some friends who built a temperature controlled beer stein with one -- pretty simple to rewire it to an IR module and copy remote codes.</p><p>Total cost would probably end up around $100 bucks for the dev board and accessorie (power adapter, IR transmitter, IR reciever (to learn remote codes) minor circuit components).</p><p>That should be able to wire up 5 analog temp sensors, and 10-15 digital temp sensors.  (sensors cost extra obviously)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Best bet ( if off the shelf is too expensive ) is an arduino or other beginner friendly microcontroller board.I know some friends who built a temperature controlled beer stein with one -- pretty simple to rewire it to an IR module and copy remote codes.Total cost would probably end up around $ 100 bucks for the dev board and accessorie ( power adapter , IR transmitter , IR reciever ( to learn remote codes ) minor circuit components ) .That should be able to wire up 5 analog temp sensors , and 10-15 digital temp sensors .
( sensors cost extra obviously )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Best bet (if off the shelf is too expensive) is an arduino or other beginner friendly microcontroller board.I know some friends who built a temperature controlled beer stein with one -- pretty simple to rewire it to an IR module and copy remote codes.Total cost would probably end up around $100 bucks for the dev board and accessorie (power adapter, IR transmitter, IR reciever (to learn remote codes) minor circuit components).That should be able to wire up 5 analog temp sensors, and 10-15 digital temp sensors.
(sensors cost extra obviously)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834843</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834749</id>
	<title>Cluster load balancing based on temp</title>
	<author>EmagGeek</author>
	<datestamp>1256224080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, if you have a large cluster, you can load balance based on CPU temp to maintain a uniform junction temp across the cluster. Then all you need to do is maintain just enough A/C to keep the CPU cooling fans running slow (so there is excess cooling capacity to handle a load spike since the A/C can only change the temp of the room so quickly)</p><p>Or, you can just bury your data center in the antarctic ice and melt some polar ice cap directly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , if you have a large cluster , you can load balance based on CPU temp to maintain a uniform junction temp across the cluster .
Then all you need to do is maintain just enough A/C to keep the CPU cooling fans running slow ( so there is excess cooling capacity to handle a load spike since the A/C can only change the temp of the room so quickly ) Or , you can just bury your data center in the antarctic ice and melt some polar ice cap directly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, if you have a large cluster, you can load balance based on CPU temp to maintain a uniform junction temp across the cluster.
Then all you need to do is maintain just enough A/C to keep the CPU cooling fans running slow (so there is excess cooling capacity to handle a load spike since the A/C can only change the temp of the room so quickly)Or, you can just bury your data center in the antarctic ice and melt some polar ice cap directly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29839293</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1256244600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The temperature gradient between the hot and cold side of the cooling system makes a big difference, just like it takes more work to pump 100 gallons of water to a height of 100 feet than it does to pump it 1 foot. Meanwhile if the outside is cooler than the inside the heat will flow with no effort at all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The temperature gradient between the hot and cold side of the cooling system makes a big difference , just like it takes more work to pump 100 gallons of water to a height of 100 feet than it does to pump it 1 foot .
Meanwhile if the outside is cooler than the inside the heat will flow with no effort at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The temperature gradient between the hot and cold side of the cooling system makes a big difference, just like it takes more work to pump 100 gallons of water to a height of 100 feet than it does to pump it 1 foot.
Meanwhile if the outside is cooler than the inside the heat will flow with no effort at all.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834785</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834701</id>
	<title>UNITS?</title>
	<author>RiotingPacifist</author>
	<datestamp>1256223720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>80 whats? Obviously they mean 80F (running a temperature at 80K, 80C or 80R would be insane), but you should always specify units (especially if your using some backwards units like Fahrenheit!)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>80 whats ?
Obviously they mean 80F ( running a temperature at 80K , 80C or 80R would be insane ) , but you should always specify units ( especially if your using some backwards units like Fahrenheit !
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>80 whats?
Obviously they mean 80F (running a temperature at 80K, 80C or 80R would be insane), but you should always specify units (especially if your using some backwards units like Fahrenheit!
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29841661</id>
	<title>Re:Another server room horror story</title>
	<author>Valdez</author>
	<datestamp>1256215860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>studies show both penicillin...</p></div><p>Apparently you didn't read your new health insurance policy. The bean counter was killing two birds with one stone... the penicillin growth was part of his plan to cut employee health benefits. You don't even have to visit the doctor to get your dose!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>studies show both penicillin...Apparently you did n't read your new health insurance policy .
The bean counter was killing two birds with one stone... the penicillin growth was part of his plan to cut employee health benefits .
You do n't even have to visit the doctor to get your dose !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>studies show both penicillin...Apparently you didn't read your new health insurance policy.
The bean counter was killing two birds with one stone... the penicillin growth was part of his plan to cut employee health benefits.
You don't even have to visit the doctor to get your dose!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835809</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29838469</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256240340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Locate the server farm in Antarctica!</p></div><p>While the comment is in jest, a good portion of Antarctica is at high altitudes above sea level, so that can complicate things.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Locate the server farm in Antarctica ! While the comment is in jest , a good portion of Antarctica is at high altitudes above sea level , so that can complicate things .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Locate the server farm in Antarctica!While the comment is in jest, a good portion of Antarctica is at high altitudes above sea level, so that can complicate things.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834425</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835661</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>petermgreen</author>
	<datestamp>1256228520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Antartica would indeed not be a good choice but afaict there are places with temperatures low enough that you could use outside air to cool stuff year round while not being so low as to cause major logistical problems.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Antartica would indeed not be a good choice but afaict there are places with temperatures low enough that you could use outside air to cool stuff year round while not being so low as to cause major logistical problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Antartica would indeed not be a good choice but afaict there are places with temperatures low enough that you could use outside air to cool stuff year round while not being so low as to cause major logistical problems.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834755</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29840443</id>
	<title>Re:Ducted cabinets</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256207700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your forgetting one thing, outside air is NOT clean.  There is a lot of dust/dirt you would be blowing through those servers continually unless it is heavily filtered.  Even then, some will still get through and you may end up having to clean out the racks more often.  Filters themselves aren't cheap either and you have to change them regularly.  A system like you describe may be more efficient under certain conditions, but it still comes with its own problems.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your forgetting one thing , outside air is NOT clean .
There is a lot of dust/dirt you would be blowing through those servers continually unless it is heavily filtered .
Even then , some will still get through and you may end up having to clean out the racks more often .
Filters themselves are n't cheap either and you have to change them regularly .
A system like you describe may be more efficient under certain conditions , but it still comes with its own problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your forgetting one thing, outside air is NOT clean.
There is a lot of dust/dirt you would be blowing through those servers continually unless it is heavily filtered.
Even then, some will still get through and you may end up having to clean out the racks more often.
Filters themselves aren't cheap either and you have to change them regularly.
A system like you describe may be more efficient under certain conditions, but it still comes with its own problems.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834707</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29838691</id>
	<title>Re:Possible strategy</title>
	<author>Zerth</author>
	<datestamp>1256241600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you are going for cheap, you can get a USB thermometer for like 9 bucks. I'm sure you can find them locally for a bit more.<br><a href="http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.7003" title="dealextreme.com">http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.7003</a> [dealextreme.com]</p><p>The included software is win-only.  Several people have coded some linux tools of varying usefulness.  You'll probably want to do your own calibrations, mine is consistantly off, but I've seen others complain of nonlinear responses.</p><p><a href="http://err.no/personal/blog/tech/2008-07-22-10-17\_kernel\_patches\_TEMPer\_thermometer.html" title="err.no">http://err.no/personal/blog/tech/2008-07-22-10-17\_kernel\_patches\_TEMPer\_thermometer.html</a> [err.no]<br><a href="http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products/temper-tools" title="roaringpenguin.com">http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products/temper-tools</a> [roaringpenguin.com]</p><p>As for IR, um...<br><a href="http://www.irblaster.info/" title="irblaster.info">cheap</a> [irblaster.info]<br><a href="http://www.commandir.com/content/view/19/31/" title="commandir.com">not so cheap</a> [commandir.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you are going for cheap , you can get a USB thermometer for like 9 bucks .
I 'm sure you can find them locally for a bit more.http : //www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.7003 [ dealextreme.com ] The included software is win-only .
Several people have coded some linux tools of varying usefulness .
You 'll probably want to do your own calibrations , mine is consistantly off , but I 've seen others complain of nonlinear responses.http : //err.no/personal/blog/tech/2008-07-22-10-17 \ _kernel \ _patches \ _TEMPer \ _thermometer.html [ err.no ] http : //www.roaringpenguin.com/products/temper-tools [ roaringpenguin.com ] As for IR , um...cheap [ irblaster.info ] not so cheap [ commandir.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you are going for cheap, you can get a USB thermometer for like 9 bucks.
I'm sure you can find them locally for a bit more.http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.7003 [dealextreme.com]The included software is win-only.
Several people have coded some linux tools of varying usefulness.
You'll probably want to do your own calibrations, mine is consistantly off, but I've seen others complain of nonlinear responses.http://err.no/personal/blog/tech/2008-07-22-10-17\_kernel\_patches\_TEMPer\_thermometer.html [err.no]http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products/temper-tools [roaringpenguin.com]As for IR, um...cheap [irblaster.info]not so cheap [commandir.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834843</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29837219</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>ffejie</author>
	<datestamp>1256235300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You mean something like this? <a href="http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/ps6712/ps10447/ps10454/case\_study\_c36-543499.html" title="cisco.com">Cisco Building Mediator</a> [cisco.com].</htmltext>
<tokenext>You mean something like this ?
Cisco Building Mediator [ cisco.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You mean something like this?
Cisco Building Mediator [cisco.com].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834877</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29835405</id>
	<title>Newer tech may reduce temperature issues</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256227560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The use of SSDs in data centers can dramatically impact power usage and temperature management costs:</p><p>"The power savings for the SSD-based systems is about 50 percent, and the overall cooling savings are 80 percent, according to the white paper. These savings are significant for a datacenter that spends 40 percent of its budget on power and cooling, and they're bound to make other datacenter operators sit up and take notice."  http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2009/10/latest-migrations-show-ssd-is-ready-for-some-datacenters.ars</p><p>While MTBF and unit cost are still concerns, the potential savings will likely see more centers moving in this direction.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The use of SSDs in data centers can dramatically impact power usage and temperature management costs : " The power savings for the SSD-based systems is about 50 percent , and the overall cooling savings are 80 percent , according to the white paper .
These savings are significant for a datacenter that spends 40 percent of its budget on power and cooling , and they 're bound to make other datacenter operators sit up and take notice .
" http : //arstechnica.com/business/news/2009/10/latest-migrations-show-ssd-is-ready-for-some-datacenters.arsWhile MTBF and unit cost are still concerns , the potential savings will likely see more centers moving in this direction .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The use of SSDs in data centers can dramatically impact power usage and temperature management costs:"The power savings for the SSD-based systems is about 50 percent, and the overall cooling savings are 80 percent, according to the white paper.
These savings are significant for a datacenter that spends 40 percent of its budget on power and cooling, and they're bound to make other datacenter operators sit up and take notice.
"  http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2009/10/latest-migrations-show-ssd-is-ready-for-some-datacenters.arsWhile MTBF and unit cost are still concerns, the potential savings will likely see more centers moving in this direction.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29841267</id>
	<title>Re:Quick solution</title>
	<author>Chris Burke</author>
	<datestamp>1256213040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Nowhere on earth is so hot that servers won't run, unless you've built a server room over an active volcano or something.</i></p><p>Given a sufficiently powerful fan, then yes.</p><p><i>All we actually need to do is remove the heat from the servers to the air, and then keep swapping the air with the outside.</i></p><p>Which becomes more difficult the higher the ambient air temperature becomes.  Heat transfer is proportional to heat delta, so the closer the air temperature is to the heat sink temperature, the more air you need to blow to remove the same amount of heat.  Eventually, the amount of electricity you are spending blowing air over the heat sinks is greater than the savings of using less AC.</p><p>This was half the point of the article -- you can save a lot of money by raising server room temperatures, but eventually (at a temperature well below outdoor ambient around here) you actually start to lose money due to all the extra fan activity.</p><p><i>Which happens automatically if you let heat out the top and air in the bottom.</i></p><p>Yes but much too slowly to be of use.  Convection is also proportional to temperature difference.  By the time your server room temperature is enough higher than outside temperature to create significant airflow, your servers are toast.</p><p><i>As for the first, I've always wondered why they don't use chimney-like devices to generate wind naturally and send it though server racks, instead of fans. </i></p><p>Go ahead and try it.  A lot of cases already have ducting that funnels air directly from outside the case to the CPU.  A few more pieces of cardboard, a hole and chimney in the top of your case, and you should be ready to remove the fan and see what convection can do for you.  Sneak preview:  unless you've specifically picked components that can run off passive cooling, you'll be in the market for a new one.  Especially if you live in a hot place and turn off your AC for this experiment.</p><p>While its conceivable to have an effective server room based entirely off of low-power chips that require no active cooling, <b>space</b> is still a major concern in the server room.  The desire for greater compute density is directly fighting against using a large number of low-power chips spread out.  Thus performance/watt becomes a major metric for the server room, because they want the most performance for a fixed amount of space and thus cooling.</p><p><i>why not have AC vent into server racks?</i></p><p>That's actually a good idea, and a lot of places do it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nowhere on earth is so hot that servers wo n't run , unless you 've built a server room over an active volcano or something.Given a sufficiently powerful fan , then yes.All we actually need to do is remove the heat from the servers to the air , and then keep swapping the air with the outside.Which becomes more difficult the higher the ambient air temperature becomes .
Heat transfer is proportional to heat delta , so the closer the air temperature is to the heat sink temperature , the more air you need to blow to remove the same amount of heat .
Eventually , the amount of electricity you are spending blowing air over the heat sinks is greater than the savings of using less AC.This was half the point of the article -- you can save a lot of money by raising server room temperatures , but eventually ( at a temperature well below outdoor ambient around here ) you actually start to lose money due to all the extra fan activity.Which happens automatically if you let heat out the top and air in the bottom.Yes but much too slowly to be of use .
Convection is also proportional to temperature difference .
By the time your server room temperature is enough higher than outside temperature to create significant airflow , your servers are toast.As for the first , I 've always wondered why they do n't use chimney-like devices to generate wind naturally and send it though server racks , instead of fans .
Go ahead and try it .
A lot of cases already have ducting that funnels air directly from outside the case to the CPU .
A few more pieces of cardboard , a hole and chimney in the top of your case , and you should be ready to remove the fan and see what convection can do for you .
Sneak preview : unless you 've specifically picked components that can run off passive cooling , you 'll be in the market for a new one .
Especially if you live in a hot place and turn off your AC for this experiment.While its conceivable to have an effective server room based entirely off of low-power chips that require no active cooling , space is still a major concern in the server room .
The desire for greater compute density is directly fighting against using a large number of low-power chips spread out .
Thus performance/watt becomes a major metric for the server room , because they want the most performance for a fixed amount of space and thus cooling.why not have AC vent into server racks ? That 's actually a good idea , and a lot of places do it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nowhere on earth is so hot that servers won't run, unless you've built a server room over an active volcano or something.Given a sufficiently powerful fan, then yes.All we actually need to do is remove the heat from the servers to the air, and then keep swapping the air with the outside.Which becomes more difficult the higher the ambient air temperature becomes.
Heat transfer is proportional to heat delta, so the closer the air temperature is to the heat sink temperature, the more air you need to blow to remove the same amount of heat.
Eventually, the amount of electricity you are spending blowing air over the heat sinks is greater than the savings of using less AC.This was half the point of the article -- you can save a lot of money by raising server room temperatures, but eventually (at a temperature well below outdoor ambient around here) you actually start to lose money due to all the extra fan activity.Which happens automatically if you let heat out the top and air in the bottom.Yes but much too slowly to be of use.
Convection is also proportional to temperature difference.
By the time your server room temperature is enough higher than outside temperature to create significant airflow, your servers are toast.As for the first, I've always wondered why they don't use chimney-like devices to generate wind naturally and send it though server racks, instead of fans.
Go ahead and try it.
A lot of cases already have ducting that funnels air directly from outside the case to the CPU.
A few more pieces of cardboard, a hole and chimney in the top of your case, and you should be ready to remove the fan and see what convection can do for you.
Sneak preview:  unless you've specifically picked components that can run off passive cooling, you'll be in the market for a new one.
Especially if you live in a hot place and turn off your AC for this experiment.While its conceivable to have an effective server room based entirely off of low-power chips that require no active cooling, space is still a major concern in the server room.
The desire for greater compute density is directly fighting against using a large number of low-power chips spread out.
Thus performance/watt becomes a major metric for the server room, because they want the most performance for a fixed amount of space and thus cooling.why not have AC vent into server racks?That's actually a good idea, and a lot of places do it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29837991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29838097</id>
	<title>Re:Possible strategy</title>
	<author>PPH</author>
	<datestamp>1256238600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What? Do you live in some science-fictiony, futuristic world? That sort of thing would be great. But here's how our PHB management deals with such problems. Note that this is an office environment, not a server room:
</p><p>For years, we've worked in an office that is usually maintained at about 80F, summer or winter. Management mandated that the thermostats all be set to this point so as to save energy consumed by the AC system. During the summer, the math was simple. Its an old building (1950s era), single story, about 6 acres in size (big roof area, not insulated). But during the winter, it was still 80F. That must be one hell of a heat load due to the occupancy, all the desktop PCs running, etc. Probably something not anticipated back when the HVAC systems were designed.
</p><p>Then the Nisqually earthquake hit (in the Seattle area). The office was shut down for a week. When we finally returned, to our amazement, the building temp was about 65F in the morning, rising to about 72F by quitting time. This was in March. After a few weeks, it went back to 80F.
</p><p>Some months later, I ran across one of the facilities techs and asked him about the t'stat settings, heat load and why the building seemed to behave differently following the earthquake. He told me that, after that incident, the natural gas supply to the building was shut down for a few weeks until the plumbing could be tested. This disabled the heating plant. 65 to 72 was the natural temp of the office during the winter with normal occupant heat loads. But back when this facility was built, they had installed thermostats with single set points to control both heating and air conditioning. Managements mandate to crank them up to 80F to save on air conditioning costs had resulted in the (uninsulated) building being overheated during cooler weather. So we had been burning money for years (decades?).
</p><p>Our Type A (A for asshole) management has refused to spend any extra money on 'that damned newfangled technology. The old  stuff works just fine.' Nobody has the balls to explain the problem and economics to them. Good luck explaining server room engineering/economics to them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What ?
Do you live in some science-fictiony , futuristic world ?
That sort of thing would be great .
But here 's how our PHB management deals with such problems .
Note that this is an office environment , not a server room : For years , we 've worked in an office that is usually maintained at about 80F , summer or winter .
Management mandated that the thermostats all be set to this point so as to save energy consumed by the AC system .
During the summer , the math was simple .
Its an old building ( 1950s era ) , single story , about 6 acres in size ( big roof area , not insulated ) .
But during the winter , it was still 80F .
That must be one hell of a heat load due to the occupancy , all the desktop PCs running , etc .
Probably something not anticipated back when the HVAC systems were designed .
Then the Nisqually earthquake hit ( in the Seattle area ) .
The office was shut down for a week .
When we finally returned , to our amazement , the building temp was about 65F in the morning , rising to about 72F by quitting time .
This was in March .
After a few weeks , it went back to 80F .
Some months later , I ran across one of the facilities techs and asked him about the t'stat settings , heat load and why the building seemed to behave differently following the earthquake .
He told me that , after that incident , the natural gas supply to the building was shut down for a few weeks until the plumbing could be tested .
This disabled the heating plant .
65 to 72 was the natural temp of the office during the winter with normal occupant heat loads .
But back when this facility was built , they had installed thermostats with single set points to control both heating and air conditioning .
Managements mandate to crank them up to 80F to save on air conditioning costs had resulted in the ( uninsulated ) building being overheated during cooler weather .
So we had been burning money for years ( decades ? ) .
Our Type A ( A for asshole ) management has refused to spend any extra money on 'that damned newfangled technology .
The old stuff works just fine .
' Nobody has the balls to explain the problem and economics to them .
Good luck explaining server room engineering/economics to them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What?
Do you live in some science-fictiony, futuristic world?
That sort of thing would be great.
But here's how our PHB management deals with such problems.
Note that this is an office environment, not a server room:
For years, we've worked in an office that is usually maintained at about 80F, summer or winter.
Management mandated that the thermostats all be set to this point so as to save energy consumed by the AC system.
During the summer, the math was simple.
Its an old building (1950s era), single story, about 6 acres in size (big roof area, not insulated).
But during the winter, it was still 80F.
That must be one hell of a heat load due to the occupancy, all the desktop PCs running, etc.
Probably something not anticipated back when the HVAC systems were designed.
Then the Nisqually earthquake hit (in the Seattle area).
The office was shut down for a week.
When we finally returned, to our amazement, the building temp was about 65F in the morning, rising to about 72F by quitting time.
This was in March.
After a few weeks, it went back to 80F.
Some months later, I ran across one of the facilities techs and asked him about the t'stat settings, heat load and why the building seemed to behave differently following the earthquake.
He told me that, after that incident, the natural gas supply to the building was shut down for a few weeks until the plumbing could be tested.
This disabled the heating plant.
65 to 72 was the natural temp of the office during the winter with normal occupant heat loads.
But back when this facility was built, they had installed thermostats with single set points to control both heating and air conditioning.
Managements mandate to crank them up to 80F to save on air conditioning costs had resulted in the (uninsulated) building being overheated during cooler weather.
So we had been burning money for years (decades?).
Our Type A (A for asshole) management has refused to spend any extra money on 'that damned newfangled technology.
The old  stuff works just fine.
' Nobody has the balls to explain the problem and economics to them.
Good luck explaining server room engineering/economics to them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834507</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834813</id>
	<title>Re:Possible strategy</title>
	<author>Jurily</author>
	<datestamp>1256224560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Possible problem: do we need to factor in some increased wear &amp; tear on the machines for higher temperatures? That would complicate things.</p></div><p>And the increased burnout rate of your sysadmins. But who cares about them, right?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Possible problem : do we need to factor in some increased wear &amp; tear on the machines for higher temperatures ?
That would complicate things.And the increased burnout rate of your sysadmins .
But who cares about them , right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Possible problem: do we need to factor in some increased wear &amp; tear on the machines for higher temperatures?
That would complicate things.And the increased burnout rate of your sysadmins.
But who cares about them, right?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834507</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29837221</id>
	<title>Re:Possible strategy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256235300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Get an air conditioner with a thermostat. Set the desired temperature and leave it alone.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Get an air conditioner with a thermostat .
Set the desired temperature and leave it alone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get an air conditioner with a thermostat.
Set the desired temperature and leave it alone.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834843</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834425</id>
	<title>Quick solution</title>
	<author>Geoffrey.landis</author>
	<datestamp>1256221800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Locate the server farm in Antarctica!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Locate the server farm in Antarctica !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Locate the server farm in Antarctica!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29844209</id>
	<title>Re:Possible strategy</title>
	<author>TheLink</author>
	<datestamp>1256299560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>&gt; I was asking for advice on USB/LAN-based temp sensors<br><br>But why do you need those sensors? I thought most servers have temperature sensors built in, and they are software readable.<br><br>Why not use those instead?<br><br>And "show environment" works on some cisco routers.<br><br>Even my home pc's motherboard has temp sensors (and so does its cpu).</htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; I was asking for advice on USB/LAN-based temp sensorsBut why do you need those sensors ?
I thought most servers have temperature sensors built in , and they are software readable.Why not use those instead ? And " show environment " works on some cisco routers.Even my home pc 's motherboard has temp sensors ( and so does its cpu ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; I was asking for advice on USB/LAN-based temp sensorsBut why do you need those sensors?
I thought most servers have temperature sensors built in, and they are software readable.Why not use those instead?And "show environment" works on some cisco routers.Even my home pc's motherboard has temp sensors (and so does its cpu).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834843</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29840875</id>
	<title>Re:Ducted cabinets</title>
	<author>joib</author>
	<datestamp>1256210280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Cray has something like this in the XT series. Each cabinet has a single big fan at the bottom, sucking in air from below the raised floor and pushing it vertically through the system. And since there are no hard drives either, that fan is the only moving part in the entire cabinet.</p><p>I think newer versions also have liquid cooling in addition to the big fan. Basically something like a car radiator at the top of the cabinet.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Cray has something like this in the XT series .
Each cabinet has a single big fan at the bottom , sucking in air from below the raised floor and pushing it vertically through the system .
And since there are no hard drives either , that fan is the only moving part in the entire cabinet.I think newer versions also have liquid cooling in addition to the big fan .
Basically something like a car radiator at the top of the cabinet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cray has something like this in the XT series.
Each cabinet has a single big fan at the bottom, sucking in air from below the raised floor and pushing it vertically through the system.
And since there are no hard drives either, that fan is the only moving part in the entire cabinet.I think newer versions also have liquid cooling in addition to the big fan.
Basically something like a car radiator at the top of the cabinet.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_22_1211229.29834707</parent>
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