<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_10_20_2254210</id>
	<title>Sequoia Voting Systems Source Code Released</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1256036760000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="mailto:echerlin@gmail.com" rel="nofollow">Mokurai</a> sends a heads-up about Sequoia Voting Systems, which seems to have <a href="http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/10/20/795343/-Sequoia-Voting-Systems-hacks-self-in-foot">inadvertently released the SQL code for its voting databases</a>. The existence of such code appears to violate Federal voting law: <i>"Sequoia blew it on a public records response. ... They appear... to have just vandalized the data as valid databases by stripping the MS-SQL header data off, assuming that would stop us cold. They were wrong. The Linux 'strings' command was able to peel it apart. Nedit was able to digest 800-MB text files. What was revealed was thousands of lines of MS-SQL source code that appears to control or at least influence the logical flow of the election, in violation of a bunch of clauses in the FEC voting system rulebook banning interpreted code, machine modified code and mandating hash checks of voting system code."</i> The code is all <a href="http://studysequoia.wikispaces.com/">available for study or download</a>, "the first time the innards of a US voting system can be downloaded and discussed publicly with no NDAs or court-ordered secrecy," notes Jim March of the Election Defense Alliance. Dig in and analyze.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Mokurai sends a heads-up about Sequoia Voting Systems , which seems to have inadvertently released the SQL code for its voting databases .
The existence of such code appears to violate Federal voting law : " Sequoia blew it on a public records response .
... They appear... to have just vandalized the data as valid databases by stripping the MS-SQL header data off , assuming that would stop us cold .
They were wrong .
The Linux 'strings ' command was able to peel it apart .
Nedit was able to digest 800-MB text files .
What was revealed was thousands of lines of MS-SQL source code that appears to control or at least influence the logical flow of the election , in violation of a bunch of clauses in the FEC voting system rulebook banning interpreted code , machine modified code and mandating hash checks of voting system code .
" The code is all available for study or download , " the first time the innards of a US voting system can be downloaded and discussed publicly with no NDAs or court-ordered secrecy , " notes Jim March of the Election Defense Alliance .
Dig in and analyze .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mokurai sends a heads-up about Sequoia Voting Systems, which seems to have inadvertently released the SQL code for its voting databases.
The existence of such code appears to violate Federal voting law: "Sequoia blew it on a public records response.
... They appear... to have just vandalized the data as valid databases by stripping the MS-SQL header data off, assuming that would stop us cold.
They were wrong.
The Linux 'strings' command was able to peel it apart.
Nedit was able to digest 800-MB text files.
What was revealed was thousands of lines of MS-SQL source code that appears to control or at least influence the logical flow of the election, in violation of a bunch of clauses in the FEC voting system rulebook banning interpreted code, machine modified code and mandating hash checks of voting system code.
" The code is all available for study or download, "the first time the innards of a US voting system can be downloaded and discussed publicly with no NDAs or court-ordered secrecy," notes Jim March of the Election Defense Alliance.
Dig in and analyze.</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29825921</id>
	<title>Seems very fitting</title>
	<author>ThatsNotPudding</author>
	<datestamp>1256151060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>that this story in my RSS feed is followed by a Newsmax AdSense blurb asking: <b>"Like Palin? Vote Here Now!"</b>.<br> <br>On a much more sober note, do websites have <i>no</i> say into what is allowed to show in AdSense?  Especially if it makes them appear as nothing more than money-grubbing hypocrites?  Yes, yes, 'Adblock', etc. - that's missing the point - how about those on work computers with no permission to block such dreck?</htmltext>
<tokenext>that this story in my RSS feed is followed by a Newsmax AdSense blurb asking : " Like Palin ?
Vote Here Now ! " .
On a much more sober note , do websites have no say into what is allowed to show in AdSense ?
Especially if it makes them appear as nothing more than money-grubbing hypocrites ?
Yes , yes , 'Adblock ' , etc .
- that 's missing the point - how about those on work computers with no permission to block such dreck ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>that this story in my RSS feed is followed by a Newsmax AdSense blurb asking: "Like Palin?
Vote Here Now!".
On a much more sober note, do websites have no say into what is allowed to show in AdSense?
Especially if it makes them appear as nothing more than money-grubbing hypocrites?
Yes, yes, 'Adblock', etc.
- that's missing the point - how about those on work computers with no permission to block such dreck?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816443</id>
	<title>Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>icebike</author>
	<datestamp>1256042040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"code that appears to control or at least influence the logical flow of the election"</p><p>Which means the uneducated inspecting strings saw things like:</p><p>BAL\_ID null<br>-- 1 - show candidate on ballot (default)<br>-- 0 - remove candidate from the ballot<br>-- 2 - don't show candidate on the ballot, but reserve space for her on the layout</p><p>All of which is perfectly benign when voters are not eligible to vote for certain candidates for any number of reasons.</p><p>The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading, and not much about programming either.</p><p>Just because you know how to run grep or strings does not mean you can use the data it reveals.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" code that appears to control or at least influence the logical flow of the election " Which means the uneducated inspecting strings saw things like : BAL \ _ID null-- 1 - show candidate on ballot ( default ) -- 0 - remove candidate from the ballot-- 2 - do n't show candidate on the ballot , but reserve space for her on the layoutAll of which is perfectly benign when voters are not eligible to vote for certain candidates for any number of reasons.The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading , and not much about programming either.Just because you know how to run grep or strings does not mean you can use the data it reveals .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"code that appears to control or at least influence the logical flow of the election"Which means the uneducated inspecting strings saw things like:BAL\_ID null-- 1 - show candidate on ballot (default)-- 0 - remove candidate from the ballot-- 2 - don't show candidate on the ballot, but reserve space for her on the layoutAll of which is perfectly benign when voters are not eligible to vote for certain candidates for any number of reasons.The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading, and not much about programming either.Just because you know how to run grep or strings does not mean you can use the data it reveals.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816377</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Idefix97</author>
	<datestamp>1256041740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I for one welcome our Afghan overlords!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I for one welcome our Afghan overlords !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I for one welcome our Afghan overlords!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816231</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816587</id>
	<title>Too early to start the scandalising</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256042880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>They may have violated the regulations, but it is still not clear that anything they did would have had any real impact. Best to wait and see what the analysis reveals.</htmltext>
<tokenext>They may have violated the regulations , but it is still not clear that anything they did would have had any real impact .
Best to wait and see what the analysis reveals .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They may have violated the regulations, but it is still not clear that anything they did would have had any real impact.
Best to wait and see what the analysis reveals.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816353</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256041500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Never ascribe to corruption what you can ascribe to malicious incompetence.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Never ascribe to corruption what you can ascribe to malicious incompetence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Never ascribe to corruption what you can ascribe to malicious incompetence.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816231</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816549</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>Senjutsu</author>
	<datestamp>1256042700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><tt>I agree, the summary and quoted code don't shed any light on the issue, but the big, and possibly illegal, problem is that the databases are heavily self-modifying. Random example:<br><br>/* Table : CONTEST&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; */<br>/* Description: Election specific contest. There could be multiple<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; contests per office differentiated by party, Precinct,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and Gender.&nbsp; There are also contests uhat are not for an<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; office such as System Contest (e.g Straight Party) and<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Proposals. */<br>begin<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Exec("<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; create table CONTEST<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- identifer of contest<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CONTEST\_ID&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;T\_GLOBAL\_ID&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; identity<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- identifer of political subdivision<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,&nbsp; &nbsp; PSD\_ID&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;T\_GLOBAL\_ID&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; null<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;0 = all, 1=exclude, 2=include<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; 1 = Some voters can vote ONLY for this office<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; 2 =Some voters in the psd cannot vote for the office<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,&nbsp; &nbsp; ELIGIBILITY&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;!numeric(1)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;null default 0<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- if office is precinct level, identifier of contest's precinct<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,&nbsp; &nbsp; PRECINCT\_ID&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; T\_GLOBAL\_ID&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; null<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- identifier of proposal in contest<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,&nbsp; &nbsp; PROPOSAL\_ID&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; T\_GLOBAL\_ID&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; null<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- Combined from office/proposal name and modifier such as<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --&nbsp; precinct name or gender<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,&nbsp; &nbsp; NAME&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;T\_STANDARD\_NAME&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; null<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- If contest is NOT a proposal: reference to the office at<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- the source of this contest<br><br>etc. The Program seems to have created and destroyed tables, columns, views, etc, on the fly, an incredibly odd practice for data that is meant to be audited.<br></tt></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree , the summary and quoted code do n't shed any light on the issue , but the big , and possibly illegal , problem is that the databases are heavily self-modifying .
Random example : / * Table : CONTEST                                               * // * Description : Election specific contest .
There could be multiple             contests per office differentiated by party , Precinct ,             and Gender.   There are also contests uhat are not for an             office such as System Contest ( e.g Straight Party ) and             Proposals .
* /begin     Exec ( "     create table CONTEST         -- identifer of contest         CONTEST \ _ID             T \ _GLOBAL \ _ID           identity         -- identifer of political subdivision     ,     PSD \ _ID                 T \ _GLOBAL \ _ID           null         --       0 = all , 1 = exclude , 2 = include         --     1 = Some voters can vote ONLY for this office         --     2 = Some voters in the psd can not vote for the office     ,     ELIGIBILITY           ! numeric ( 1 )             null default 0         -- if office is precinct level , identifier of contest 's precinct     ,     PRECINCT \ _ID           T \ _GLOBAL \ _ID           null         -- identifier of proposal in contest     ,     PROPOSAL \ _ID           T \ _GLOBAL \ _ID           null         -- Combined from office/proposal name and modifier such as         --   precinct name or gender     ,     NAME                   T \ _STANDARD \ _NAME       null         -- If contest is NOT a proposal : reference to the office at         -- the source of this contestetc .
The Program seems to have created and destroyed tables , columns , views , etc , on the fly , an incredibly odd practice for data that is meant to be audited .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree, the summary and quoted code don't shed any light on the issue, but the big, and possibly illegal, problem is that the databases are heavily self-modifying.
Random example:/* Table : CONTEST                                              *//* Description: Election specific contest.
There could be multiple            contests per office differentiated by party, Precinct,            and Gender.  There are also contests uhat are not for an            office such as System Contest (e.g Straight Party) and            Proposals.
*/begin    Exec("    create table CONTEST        -- identifer of contest        CONTEST\_ID           T\_GLOBAL\_ID          identity        -- identifer of political subdivision    ,    PSD\_ID               T\_GLOBAL\_ID          null        --     0 = all, 1=exclude, 2=include        --    1 = Some voters can vote ONLY for this office        --    2 =Some voters in the psd cannot vote for the office    ,    ELIGIBILITY         !numeric(1)           null default 0        -- if office is precinct level, identifier of contest's precinct    ,    PRECINCT\_ID          T\_GLOBAL\_ID          null        -- identifier of proposal in contest    ,    PROPOSAL\_ID          T\_GLOBAL\_ID          null        -- Combined from office/proposal name and modifier such as        --  precinct name or gender    ,    NAME                 T\_STANDARD\_NAME      null        -- If contest is NOT a proposal: reference to the office at        -- the source of this contestetc.
The Program seems to have created and destroyed tables, columns, views, etc, on the fly, an incredibly odd practice for data that is meant to be audited.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816489</id>
	<title>FCC violation = revote?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256042340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If this code really is in violation of FCC regulations, shouldn't that invalidate all elections that the code was used in?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If this code really is in violation of FCC regulations , should n't that invalidate all elections that the code was used in ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If this code really is in violation of FCC regulations, shouldn't that invalidate all elections that the code was used in?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29822715</id>
	<title>The story is not based on fact.</title>
	<author>davidmwilliams</author>
	<datestamp>1256136480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are many good reasons for open source voting system but this story by the Daily Kos is a beat up, and is based solely on the lack of technical ability by the person making the claims.

I've actually downloaded the database, restored it successfully in SQL Server 2008 and examined it and there really is no basis to this story.

That doesn't mean I support Sequoia, that doesn't mean I support closed voting systems, just merely in this particular instance the story is not based on fact.

Here's how to restore it and what you'll find: <a href="http://www.itwire.com/content/view/28715/1141/" title="itwire.com">http://www.itwire.com/content/view/28715/1141/</a> [itwire.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are many good reasons for open source voting system but this story by the Daily Kos is a beat up , and is based solely on the lack of technical ability by the person making the claims .
I 've actually downloaded the database , restored it successfully in SQL Server 2008 and examined it and there really is no basis to this story .
That does n't mean I support Sequoia , that does n't mean I support closed voting systems , just merely in this particular instance the story is not based on fact .
Here 's how to restore it and what you 'll find : http : //www.itwire.com/content/view/28715/1141/ [ itwire.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are many good reasons for open source voting system but this story by the Daily Kos is a beat up, and is based solely on the lack of technical ability by the person making the claims.
I've actually downloaded the database, restored it successfully in SQL Server 2008 and examined it and there really is no basis to this story.
That doesn't mean I support Sequoia, that doesn't mean I support closed voting systems, just merely in this particular instance the story is not based on fact.
Here's how to restore it and what you'll find: http://www.itwire.com/content/view/28715/1141/ [itwire.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29827125</id>
	<title>Re:ha ha</title>
	<author>NotBornYesterday</author>
	<datestamp>1256155860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>From <a href="http://studysequoia.wikispaces.com/" title="wikispaces.com">TFA</a> [wikispaces.com]:<p><div class="quote"><p>The goals:<br>
* Determine the security risks associated with editing this code in the field.<br>
* Determine what this code does, and if it does so honestly, effectively or in a legal fashion.<br>
* Determine if this code even legally exists or meets the legal definitions for a "voting system" at all under federal or state published guidelines.</p> </div><p>They can't say at the moment whether vote rigging could or did take place, they simply have gotten access to code that Sequoia apparently wanted kept secret, and are studying it and making it available for others to study.  It may turn out that regardless of the relative security and trustworthiness of the code, it may be in violation of Federal laws for other reasons.  Let's not jump to any fun conspiracy-theory conclusions (although I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they turn out to be correct).  There will be plenty of time to hang people after we know more about what was found.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>From TFA [ wikispaces.com ] : The goals : * Determine the security risks associated with editing this code in the field .
* Determine what this code does , and if it does so honestly , effectively or in a legal fashion .
* Determine if this code even legally exists or meets the legal definitions for a " voting system " at all under federal or state published guidelines .
They ca n't say at the moment whether vote rigging could or did take place , they simply have gotten access to code that Sequoia apparently wanted kept secret , and are studying it and making it available for others to study .
It may turn out that regardless of the relative security and trustworthiness of the code , it may be in violation of Federal laws for other reasons .
Let 's not jump to any fun conspiracy-theory conclusions ( although I would n't be terribly surprised if they turn out to be correct ) .
There will be plenty of time to hang people after we know more about what was found .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From TFA [wikispaces.com]:The goals:
* Determine the security risks associated with editing this code in the field.
* Determine what this code does, and if it does so honestly, effectively or in a legal fashion.
* Determine if this code even legally exists or meets the legal definitions for a "voting system" at all under federal or state published guidelines.
They can't say at the moment whether vote rigging could or did take place, they simply have gotten access to code that Sequoia apparently wanted kept secret, and are studying it and making it available for others to study.
It may turn out that regardless of the relative security and trustworthiness of the code, it may be in violation of Federal laws for other reasons.
Let's not jump to any fun conspiracy-theory conclusions (although I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they turn out to be correct).
There will be plenty of time to hang people after we know more about what was found.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816223</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29817691</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>fluffy99</author>
	<datestamp>1256048340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading, and not much about programming either.</p><p>Just because you know how to run grep or strings does not mean you can use the data it reveals.</p></div><p>I got that impression as soon as I saw they were wrong about the data being "sabotaged" (they didn't know what they were looking at) and they used the phrase "SQL code", when what they really meant was stored procedures.  Whether those stored procedures are part of the voting software or can influence the data is another question.  They might be used to generate reports or dataset views, or simply used to setup the initial database structure.  They might even be looking at the normal default procedures you'd find in any MS SQL database.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Like what ?... Let me guess : no need to show someone that's not supposed to win, for instance ?</p></div><p>How about not running in that particular district?  Or it's a closed primary and a Democrat should only see the Demcrat candidates.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading , and not much about programming either.Just because you know how to run grep or strings does not mean you can use the data it reveals.I got that impression as soon as I saw they were wrong about the data being " sabotaged " ( they did n't know what they were looking at ) and they used the phrase " SQL code " , when what they really meant was stored procedures .
Whether those stored procedures are part of the voting software or can influence the data is another question .
They might be used to generate reports or dataset views , or simply used to setup the initial database structure .
They might even be looking at the normal default procedures you 'd find in any MS SQL database.Like what ? .. .
Let me guess : no need to show someone that 's not supposed to win , for instance ? How about not running in that particular district ?
Or it 's a closed primary and a Democrat should only see the Demcrat candidates .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading, and not much about programming either.Just because you know how to run grep or strings does not mean you can use the data it reveals.I got that impression as soon as I saw they were wrong about the data being "sabotaged" (they didn't know what they were looking at) and they used the phrase "SQL code", when what they really meant was stored procedures.
Whether those stored procedures are part of the voting software or can influence the data is another question.
They might be used to generate reports or dataset views, or simply used to setup the initial database structure.
They might even be looking at the normal default procedures you'd find in any MS SQL database.Like what ?...
Let me guess : no need to show someone that's not supposed to win, for instance ?How about not running in that particular district?
Or it's a closed primary and a Democrat should only see the Demcrat candidates.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29825689</id>
	<title>eVoting misses the point</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1256150100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>All the eVoting misses the point in a big way. It really doesn't matter one little bit if the election system carries out a perfectly fair and perfectly secure election if the typical voter can't look at the process and understand personally that  it IS secure and fair and WHY. People understand marks on paper and counting. They understand double checking and they understand both neutral observers and having observers from all parties invited. They understand locked boxes full of paper ballots with marks on them. They understand pull a lever and a punch makes a hole in cardstock, especially if they can watch it happen.</p><p>They do not understand SQL, secure hashes, code audits, or signed firmware. From what we've seen, it's not entirely clear how well Diebold (now Sequoia) understand those things! They don't even have all of the source code to the OS, so how can they certify anything? Try to explain it all and they can hardly be blamed if they think you're just blinding them with science. That's especially true when the vendors jealously guard the whole thing as top secret, even from election officials.</p><p>All that secrecy may well not mean they intend to rig the elections, but it surely does suggest that they wish to hide their non-compliance and shoddy work, which is bad enough. It also leads even the voters who CAN understand the eVoting system to question it's security and fairness. Democracy requires checks and balances, not just against nefarious intent, but also from simple error.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>All the eVoting misses the point in a big way .
It really does n't matter one little bit if the election system carries out a perfectly fair and perfectly secure election if the typical voter ca n't look at the process and understand personally that it IS secure and fair and WHY .
People understand marks on paper and counting .
They understand double checking and they understand both neutral observers and having observers from all parties invited .
They understand locked boxes full of paper ballots with marks on them .
They understand pull a lever and a punch makes a hole in cardstock , especially if they can watch it happen.They do not understand SQL , secure hashes , code audits , or signed firmware .
From what we 've seen , it 's not entirely clear how well Diebold ( now Sequoia ) understand those things !
They do n't even have all of the source code to the OS , so how can they certify anything ?
Try to explain it all and they can hardly be blamed if they think you 're just blinding them with science .
That 's especially true when the vendors jealously guard the whole thing as top secret , even from election officials.All that secrecy may well not mean they intend to rig the elections , but it surely does suggest that they wish to hide their non-compliance and shoddy work , which is bad enough .
It also leads even the voters who CAN understand the eVoting system to question it 's security and fairness .
Democracy requires checks and balances , not just against nefarious intent , but also from simple error .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All the eVoting misses the point in a big way.
It really doesn't matter one little bit if the election system carries out a perfectly fair and perfectly secure election if the typical voter can't look at the process and understand personally that  it IS secure and fair and WHY.
People understand marks on paper and counting.
They understand double checking and they understand both neutral observers and having observers from all parties invited.
They understand locked boxes full of paper ballots with marks on them.
They understand pull a lever and a punch makes a hole in cardstock, especially if they can watch it happen.They do not understand SQL, secure hashes, code audits, or signed firmware.
From what we've seen, it's not entirely clear how well Diebold (now Sequoia) understand those things!
They don't even have all of the source code to the OS, so how can they certify anything?
Try to explain it all and they can hardly be blamed if they think you're just blinding them with science.
That's especially true when the vendors jealously guard the whole thing as top secret, even from election officials.All that secrecy may well not mean they intend to rig the elections, but it surely does suggest that they wish to hide their non-compliance and shoddy work, which is bad enough.
It also leads even the voters who CAN understand the eVoting system to question it's security and fairness.
Democracy requires checks and balances, not just against nefarious intent, but also from simple error.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29818543</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>JimMarch(equalccw)</author>
	<datestamp>1256053500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Quoting:<br>---<br>The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading, and not much about programming either.</p><p>Just because you know how to run grep or strings does not mean you can use the data it reveals.<br>---</p><p>And you're right.  Except first, this appears to be an open and shut violation of FEC rules - I'm not an SQL programmer BUT I know that rulebook.  And based on the *volume* of code present, there's a lot of calculation going on.</p><p>Yes, it's an open question as to what the security implications are.  But at least we have a chance at evaluating those implications publicly.</p><p>And public study of this stuff is the only sane and responsible thing to do - EVEN if it reveals our own warts.</p><p>Hell, ESPECIALLY if it reveals our own warts.</p><p>Jim March</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Quoting : ---The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading , and not much about programming either.Just because you know how to run grep or strings does not mean you can use the data it reveals.---And you 're right .
Except first , this appears to be an open and shut violation of FEC rules - I 'm not an SQL programmer BUT I know that rulebook .
And based on the * volume * of code present , there 's a lot of calculation going on.Yes , it 's an open question as to what the security implications are .
But at least we have a chance at evaluating those implications publicly.And public study of this stuff is the only sane and responsible thing to do - EVEN if it reveals our own warts.Hell , ESPECIALLY if it reveals our own warts.Jim March</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Quoting:---The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading, and not much about programming either.Just because you know how to run grep or strings does not mean you can use the data it reveals.---And you're right.
Except first, this appears to be an open and shut violation of FEC rules - I'm not an SQL programmer BUT I know that rulebook.
And based on the *volume* of code present, there's a lot of calculation going on.Yes, it's an open question as to what the security implications are.
But at least we have a chance at evaluating those implications publicly.And public study of this stuff is the only sane and responsible thing to do - EVEN if it reveals our own warts.Hell, ESPECIALLY if it reveals our own warts.Jim March</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29823127</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256138460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>THE ROBINSON VOTING METHOD</p><p>is the only fraud proof, super cheap, verifiable, INSTANT voting method the world needs.</p><p>http://tinyurl.com/c7z4x6</p><p>Everything else is a waste of time, smoke and mirrors for corrupt politicians so they can steal the elections from the people.</p><p>Spread the word about the Robinson Voting Method everywhere - your life depends on it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>THE ROBINSON VOTING METHODis the only fraud proof , super cheap , verifiable , INSTANT voting method the world needs.http : //tinyurl.com/c7z4x6Everything else is a waste of time , smoke and mirrors for corrupt politicians so they can steal the elections from the people.Spread the word about the Robinson Voting Method everywhere - your life depends on it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>THE ROBINSON VOTING METHODis the only fraud proof, super cheap, verifiable, INSTANT voting method the world needs.http://tinyurl.com/c7z4x6Everything else is a waste of time, smoke and mirrors for corrupt politicians so they can steal the elections from the people.Spread the word about the Robinson Voting Method everywhere - your life depends on it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816231</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29818777</id>
	<title>Re:FCC violation = revote?  Ans:  No.</title>
	<author>Valdrax</author>
	<datestamp>1256055120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If this code really is in violation of FCC regulations, shouldn't that invalidate all elections that the code was used in?</p></div><p>Courts are extremely reluctant to order new elections.  Elections are very costly and time-consuming and forcing the elected candidate to stand for election again may bias voters against the candidate.  Generally, a court is only going to order such a remedy if you (a) have proof of outright fraud that (b) resulted in a change to the results of the election.  The mere <em>possibility</em> of affecting the election is not going to be good enough.</p><p>In light of that, minor violations of regulations by creating code that actually <em>works</em> but doesn't follow the regs is not going to overturn an election.  As a remedy, that's like hitting a fly with a sledgehammer.  It may, however, result in the company getting fined, certain employees getting jail time (if the statute provides), and/or in the machines being decertified for future elections.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If this code really is in violation of FCC regulations , should n't that invalidate all elections that the code was used in ? Courts are extremely reluctant to order new elections .
Elections are very costly and time-consuming and forcing the elected candidate to stand for election again may bias voters against the candidate .
Generally , a court is only going to order such a remedy if you ( a ) have proof of outright fraud that ( b ) resulted in a change to the results of the election .
The mere possibility of affecting the election is not going to be good enough.In light of that , minor violations of regulations by creating code that actually works but does n't follow the regs is not going to overturn an election .
As a remedy , that 's like hitting a fly with a sledgehammer .
It may , however , result in the company getting fined , certain employees getting jail time ( if the statute provides ) , and/or in the machines being decertified for future elections .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If this code really is in violation of FCC regulations, shouldn't that invalidate all elections that the code was used in?Courts are extremely reluctant to order new elections.
Elections are very costly and time-consuming and forcing the elected candidate to stand for election again may bias voters against the candidate.
Generally, a court is only going to order such a remedy if you (a) have proof of outright fraud that (b) resulted in a change to the results of the election.
The mere possibility of affecting the election is not going to be good enough.In light of that, minor violations of regulations by creating code that actually works but doesn't follow the regs is not going to overturn an election.
As a remedy, that's like hitting a fly with a sledgehammer.
It may, however, result in the company getting fined, certain employees getting jail time (if the statute provides), and/or in the machines being decertified for future elections.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29824143</id>
	<title>You could have kept reading too</title>
	<author>gr8\_phk</author>
	<datestamp>1256143500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You quote a sentence and cut it off right before the loophole. The text is:<blockquote><div><p>Self-modifying, dynamically loaded, or interpreted code is prohibited, except under the security provisions outlined in section 6.4.e</p></div></blockquote><p>
You can't just cut it off before the word "except" and disregard a whole section just to make your point seem as clear cut as you'd like. There is also text afterword that give a justification. I don't really care for the exception - it just adds confusion. However I don't think any of our law makers are capable of writing anything without throwing in exceptions. Anyway, you were being deliberately misleading when you cut off the prohibition just short of the exception.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You quote a sentence and cut it off right before the loophole .
The text is : Self-modifying , dynamically loaded , or interpreted code is prohibited , except under the security provisions outlined in section 6.4.e You ca n't just cut it off before the word " except " and disregard a whole section just to make your point seem as clear cut as you 'd like .
There is also text afterword that give a justification .
I do n't really care for the exception - it just adds confusion .
However I do n't think any of our law makers are capable of writing anything without throwing in exceptions .
Anyway , you were being deliberately misleading when you cut off the prohibition just short of the exception .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You quote a sentence and cut it off right before the loophole.
The text is:Self-modifying, dynamically loaded, or interpreted code is prohibited, except under the security provisions outlined in section 6.4.e
You can't just cut it off before the word "except" and disregard a whole section just to make your point seem as clear cut as you'd like.
There is also text afterword that give a justification.
I don't really care for the exception - it just adds confusion.
However I don't think any of our law makers are capable of writing anything without throwing in exceptions.
Anyway, you were being deliberately misleading when you cut off the prohibition just short of the exception.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816741</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816659</id>
	<title>Canadian Elections - KISS</title>
	<author>Strider-</author>
	<datestamp>1256043180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'll stick to voting with pencil, paper, and hand counted ballots.  Of course, we in Canada have the advantage that binding referendums are unconstitutional (It's violation of parliamentary supremacy).  Thus all we vote for is our representative.  Of course this seems to be happening every 18 months, but with four political parties, this tends to happen.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

Oh, and for those who are wondering, each ballot is hand counted, in triplicate, with scrutineers from each of the candidates on said ballot in attendance.  It takes about 4 or 5 hours to count 10 000 000 ballots, and recounts rarely change the results by more than 1 or 2 votes per district.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll stick to voting with pencil , paper , and hand counted ballots .
Of course , we in Canada have the advantage that binding referendums are unconstitutional ( It 's violation of parliamentary supremacy ) .
Thus all we vote for is our representative .
Of course this seems to be happening every 18 months , but with four political parties , this tends to happen .
: ) Oh , and for those who are wondering , each ballot is hand counted , in triplicate , with scrutineers from each of the candidates on said ballot in attendance .
It takes about 4 or 5 hours to count 10 000 000 ballots , and recounts rarely change the results by more than 1 or 2 votes per district .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll stick to voting with pencil, paper, and hand counted ballots.
Of course, we in Canada have the advantage that binding referendums are unconstitutional (It's violation of parliamentary supremacy).
Thus all we vote for is our representative.
Of course this seems to be happening every 18 months, but with four political parties, this tends to happen.
:)

Oh, and for those who are wondering, each ballot is hand counted, in triplicate, with scrutineers from each of the candidates on said ballot in attendance.
It takes about 4 or 5 hours to count 10 000 000 ballots, and recounts rarely change the results by more than 1 or 2 votes per district.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29820307</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256157240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why do you need 88 tables for one voting??</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why do you need 88 tables for one voting ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why do you need 88 tables for one voting?
?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816757</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816611</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>GryMor</author>
	<datestamp>1256043000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yah, that looks like a normal domain table along with comments as to the meanings of field values... Since the ballot design is part of the database, I would be surprised not to see those.</p><p>Of course, with 800mb to go through, it's possible something less normal is in there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yah , that looks like a normal domain table along with comments as to the meanings of field values... Since the ballot design is part of the database , I would be surprised not to see those.Of course , with 800mb to go through , it 's possible something less normal is in there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yah, that looks like a normal domain table along with comments as to the meanings of field values... Since the ballot design is part of the database, I would be surprised not to see those.Of course, with 800mb to go through, it's possible something less normal is in there.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29820085</id>
	<title>Re:Canadian Elections - KISS</title>
	<author>Paul Jakma</author>
	<datestamp>1256067300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>You also have the advantage of less than 15 million people voting, whereas in the last election in the US about 136.6 million voted.</i></p><p>Uhm, vote counting is an embarrassingly scaleable problem. I.e. the number of voters is mostly irrelevant (on the safeish presumption that you can extract the same proportion of counters from each population at equivalent per-counter costs). It's an O(logn) problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You also have the advantage of less than 15 million people voting , whereas in the last election in the US about 136.6 million voted.Uhm , vote counting is an embarrassingly scaleable problem .
I.e. the number of voters is mostly irrelevant ( on the safeish presumption that you can extract the same proportion of counters from each population at equivalent per-counter costs ) .
It 's an O ( logn ) problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You also have the advantage of less than 15 million people voting, whereas in the last election in the US about 136.6 million voted.Uhm, vote counting is an embarrassingly scaleable problem.
I.e. the number of voters is mostly irrelevant (on the safeish presumption that you can extract the same proportion of counters from each population at equivalent per-counter costs).
It's an O(logn) problem.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29817763</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816555</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256042760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Actually, the contents of the code may be the least of the significant things this reveals.  You are correct that the code above may be perfectly valid, but the real questions are thus:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; 1) Does the use of SQL code to tally votes violate FEC rules, which would mean the entire voting system becomes a giant paperweight.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; 2) Did Sequoia violate California law by simply damaging the data file rather than redacting it for legitimate trade secrets, in which case they can be sued to hand over the undamaged file and possible by the State as well.  Not to mention that the SQL code may well be the trade secrets that they were trying to protect, which leads to questions about their competence in other ways...<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; 3) And finally, what does the actual code do, and are there any problems with it.</p><p>Note that the function of the code is the last part of this.  It may get a lot of the attention, but in many ways it may well be an afterthought when all is said and done...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , the contents of the code may be the least of the significant things this reveals .
You are correct that the code above may be perfectly valid , but the real questions are thus :     1 ) Does the use of SQL code to tally votes violate FEC rules , which would mean the entire voting system becomes a giant paperweight .
    2 ) Did Sequoia violate California law by simply damaging the data file rather than redacting it for legitimate trade secrets , in which case they can be sued to hand over the undamaged file and possible by the State as well .
Not to mention that the SQL code may well be the trade secrets that they were trying to protect , which leads to questions about their competence in other ways.. .     3 ) And finally , what does the actual code do , and are there any problems with it.Note that the function of the code is the last part of this .
It may get a lot of the attention , but in many ways it may well be an afterthought when all is said and done.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, the contents of the code may be the least of the significant things this reveals.
You are correct that the code above may be perfectly valid, but the real questions are thus:
    1) Does the use of SQL code to tally votes violate FEC rules, which would mean the entire voting system becomes a giant paperweight.
    2) Did Sequoia violate California law by simply damaging the data file rather than redacting it for legitimate trade secrets, in which case they can be sued to hand over the undamaged file and possible by the State as well.
Not to mention that the SQL code may well be the trade secrets that they were trying to protect, which leads to questions about their competence in other ways...
    3) And finally, what does the actual code do, and are there any problems with it.Note that the function of the code is the last part of this.
It may get a lot of the attention, but in many ways it may well be an afterthought when all is said and done...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816223</id>
	<title>ha ha</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256040720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Now does stripping the illusion of voting away make us more or less free</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Now does stripping the illusion of voting away make us more or less free</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now does stripping the illusion of voting away make us more or less free</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29817587</id>
	<title>Re:Canadian Elections - KISS</title>
	<author>Interoperable</author>
	<datestamp>1256047740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree, Elections Canada is far from perfect but it generally does it's job well. I like voting with a pencil and paper, it's satisfying and concrete. I simply like putting an unambiguous X on my choice and leaving the paper slip to remain as hard evidence of my choice. It also provides the option of spoiling the ballot in entertaining ways if all choices are too unpalatable to actually vote for (I'd vote NDP as a protest vote but Jack Layton is a dinosaur of a politician). We may even have a respite from voting now that the Liberals are being trounced in the polls.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree , Elections Canada is far from perfect but it generally does it 's job well .
I like voting with a pencil and paper , it 's satisfying and concrete .
I simply like putting an unambiguous X on my choice and leaving the paper slip to remain as hard evidence of my choice .
It also provides the option of spoiling the ballot in entertaining ways if all choices are too unpalatable to actually vote for ( I 'd vote NDP as a protest vote but Jack Layton is a dinosaur of a politician ) .
We may even have a respite from voting now that the Liberals are being trounced in the polls .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree, Elections Canada is far from perfect but it generally does it's job well.
I like voting with a pencil and paper, it's satisfying and concrete.
I simply like putting an unambiguous X on my choice and leaving the paper slip to remain as hard evidence of my choice.
It also provides the option of spoiling the ballot in entertaining ways if all choices are too unpalatable to actually vote for (I'd vote NDP as a protest vote but Jack Layton is a dinosaur of a politician).
We may even have a respite from voting now that the Liberals are being trounced in the polls.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816659</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816741</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256043540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading, and not much about programming either.</p></div></blockquote><p>You could have kept reading, you know.
</p><blockquote><div><p> See also the 2002 edition of the "<a href="http://www.eac.gov/voting\%20systems/voluntary-voting-guidelines/2002-voting-system-standards" title="eac.gov">Voluntary Voting System Guide</a> [eac.gov]" published by the Federal Election Commission especially this bit in Volume 1:
</p><p>Self-modifying, dynamically loaded, or interpreted code is prohibited [...]</p></div></blockquote><p>The FEC standards say "prohibited".  They do not say "Any self-modifying, dynamically loaded or interpreted code is only okay if someone who is a really good programmer says it is" or "Interpreted code is okey dokey as long as it isn't called all that often".  If the database itself contains application code which modifies the database, then that's a problem.  It doesn't matter what kind of code it is or how benign you think it is, it should not be there at all.
</p><p>If you would like to share your educated opinion where it matters, feel free to comment <a href="http://studysequoia.wikispaces.com/" title="wikispaces.com">in the wiki</a> [wikispaces.com].  That's what it's there for.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading , and not much about programming either.You could have kept reading , you know .
See also the 2002 edition of the " Voluntary Voting System Guide [ eac.gov ] " published by the Federal Election Commission especially this bit in Volume 1 : Self-modifying , dynamically loaded , or interpreted code is prohibited [ ... ] The FEC standards say " prohibited " .
They do not say " Any self-modifying , dynamically loaded or interpreted code is only okay if someone who is a really good programmer says it is " or " Interpreted code is okey dokey as long as it is n't called all that often " .
If the database itself contains application code which modifies the database , then that 's a problem .
It does n't matter what kind of code it is or how benign you think it is , it should not be there at all .
If you would like to share your educated opinion where it matters , feel free to comment in the wiki [ wikispaces.com ] .
That 's what it 's there for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The more you read at the ultimate site more you realize the people digging thru this garbage know nothing about what they are reading, and not much about programming either.You could have kept reading, you know.
See also the 2002 edition of the "Voluntary Voting System Guide [eac.gov]" published by the Federal Election Commission especially this bit in Volume 1:
Self-modifying, dynamically loaded, or interpreted code is prohibited [...]The FEC standards say "prohibited".
They do not say "Any self-modifying, dynamically loaded or interpreted code is only okay if someone who is a really good programmer says it is" or "Interpreted code is okey dokey as long as it isn't called all that often".
If the database itself contains application code which modifies the database, then that's a problem.
It doesn't matter what kind of code it is or how benign you think it is, it should not be there at all.
If you would like to share your educated opinion where it matters, feel free to comment in the wiki [wikispaces.com].
That's what it's there for.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29817763</id>
	<title>Re:Canadian Elections - KISS</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1256048700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>we in Canada have the advantage that binding referendums are unconstitutional</i> You also have the advantage of less than 15 million people voting, whereas in the last election in the US about 136.6 million voted. Hand counting ballots is a just a bit harder if there are 10 times as many of them to count. (Yes, you would think this process would parallelize very well, and you could just throw 10 times as many counters at it.)<br> <br>
The guiding principle in ANY election is that there should ALWAYS be a paper audit trail, regardless of what technology is used to do the initial tally. The surest way to show that the SQL code is tampering with the election is to show a discrepancy between the computer generated results and the results of random hand counts.</htmltext>
<tokenext>we in Canada have the advantage that binding referendums are unconstitutional You also have the advantage of less than 15 million people voting , whereas in the last election in the US about 136.6 million voted .
Hand counting ballots is a just a bit harder if there are 10 times as many of them to count .
( Yes , you would think this process would parallelize very well , and you could just throw 10 times as many counters at it .
) The guiding principle in ANY election is that there should ALWAYS be a paper audit trail , regardless of what technology is used to do the initial tally .
The surest way to show that the SQL code is tampering with the election is to show a discrepancy between the computer generated results and the results of random hand counts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>we in Canada have the advantage that binding referendums are unconstitutional You also have the advantage of less than 15 million people voting, whereas in the last election in the US about 136.6 million voted.
Hand counting ballots is a just a bit harder if there are 10 times as many of them to count.
(Yes, you would think this process would parallelize very well, and you could just throw 10 times as many counters at it.
) 
The guiding principle in ANY election is that there should ALWAYS be a paper audit trail, regardless of what technology is used to do the initial tally.
The surest way to show that the SQL code is tampering with the election is to show a discrepancy between the computer generated results and the results of random hand counts.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816659</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29824237</id>
	<title>Just one thing</title>
	<author>gr8\_phk</author>
	<datestamp>1256143980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When they start to talk about the cost of all that hand counting some day.... Please ask them to estimate the cost to count your individual vote and compare this to the amount of money you personally pay in taxes. The argument that hand counting is expensive doesn't hold up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When they start to talk about the cost of all that hand counting some day.... Please ask them to estimate the cost to count your individual vote and compare this to the amount of money you personally pay in taxes .
The argument that hand counting is expensive does n't hold up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When they start to talk about the cost of all that hand counting some day.... Please ask them to estimate the cost to count your individual vote and compare this to the amount of money you personally pay in taxes.
The argument that hand counting is expensive doesn't hold up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816659</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816633</id>
	<title>Treason?</title>
	<author>Phantom of the Opera</author>
	<datestamp>1256043120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Time to call on Article 3 if this really is an attempt to influence the vote?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Time to call on Article 3 if this really is an attempt to influence the vote ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Time to call on Article 3 if this really is an attempt to influence the vote?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816231</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29818387</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256052600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That CREATE statement doesn't appear to be embedded in a procedure so I'm going to assume it probably came from a script used to generate the initial database structures when starting from an empty database.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That CREATE statement does n't appear to be embedded in a procedure so I 'm going to assume it probably came from a script used to generate the initial database structures when starting from an empty database .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That CREATE statement doesn't appear to be embedded in a procedure so I'm going to assume it probably came from a script used to generate the initial database structures when starting from an empty database.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816549</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816705</id>
	<title>Re:Why does it have to be secrative?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256043420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Obviously, if the source code for voting machines is made public, then the communists have won.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Obviously , if the source code for voting machines is made public , then the communists have won .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Obviously, if the source code for voting machines is made public, then the communists have won.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816595</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816231</id>
	<title>What?</title>
	<author>fyngyrz</author>
	<datestamp>1256040780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr>...a portion of the voting process is corrupt? Who would have thought <i>that!</i>
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...a portion of the voting process is corrupt ?
Who would have thought that !</tokentext>
<sentencetext> ...a portion of the voting process is corrupt?
Who would have thought that!
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29818877</id>
	<title>Re:FCC violation = revote?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256055660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think you meant FEC, not FCC.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think you meant FEC , not FCC .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think you meant FEC, not FCC.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29829125</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>slashling</author>
	<datestamp>1256121480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>in soviet russia machine counts you!</htmltext>
<tokenext>in soviet russia machine counts you !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>in soviet russia machine counts you!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816377</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29819041</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256056800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Isn't even the SELECT or INSERT statement disqualified then? I guess we'll have to go back to pen and paper...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is n't even the SELECT or INSERT statement disqualified then ?
I guess we 'll have to go back to pen and paper.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Isn't even the SELECT or INSERT statement disqualified then?
I guess we'll have to go back to pen and paper...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816741</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816849</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>icebike</author>
	<datestamp>1256044020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That it creates table views on the fly does not make it un-audit-able.</p><p>Table views on the fly will ALWAYS come out the same as long as the inputs are the same.  All that is required is that the data that DRIVES the selection and the content of the tables be locked during the election, and till after audit.</p><p>Note:  For the record, I personally believe strongly in the paper ballot.  But I also know paper ballot boxes get stuffed all the time. Karzi?</p><p>But reading comments out of code (and what you have pasted is clearly comments or aids to setting up an election, not actual election presentation code) is hardly a smoking gun.  (You should see some of the comments in my code!!!)</p><p>You've posted nothing more than a description of data elements. A data dictionary with explanatory text.</p><p>You've mistaken documentation for executable code.</p><p>Nothing you've posted supports your assertions.</p><p>There is no possible way to write a general election package that will be configurable for a wide variety of elections and STILL have it all hard coded.  It has to be data driven.  As long as you can lock both the general code and the data during the election.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That it creates table views on the fly does not make it un-audit-able.Table views on the fly will ALWAYS come out the same as long as the inputs are the same .
All that is required is that the data that DRIVES the selection and the content of the tables be locked during the election , and till after audit.Note : For the record , I personally believe strongly in the paper ballot .
But I also know paper ballot boxes get stuffed all the time .
Karzi ? But reading comments out of code ( and what you have pasted is clearly comments or aids to setting up an election , not actual election presentation code ) is hardly a smoking gun .
( You should see some of the comments in my code ! ! !
) You 've posted nothing more than a description of data elements .
A data dictionary with explanatory text.You 've mistaken documentation for executable code.Nothing you 've posted supports your assertions.There is no possible way to write a general election package that will be configurable for a wide variety of elections and STILL have it all hard coded .
It has to be data driven .
As long as you can lock both the general code and the data during the election .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That it creates table views on the fly does not make it un-audit-able.Table views on the fly will ALWAYS come out the same as long as the inputs are the same.
All that is required is that the data that DRIVES the selection and the content of the tables be locked during the election, and till after audit.Note:  For the record, I personally believe strongly in the paper ballot.
But I also know paper ballot boxes get stuffed all the time.
Karzi?But reading comments out of code (and what you have pasted is clearly comments or aids to setting up an election, not actual election presentation code) is hardly a smoking gun.
(You should see some of the comments in my code!!!
)You've posted nothing more than a description of data elements.
A data dictionary with explanatory text.You've mistaken documentation for executable code.Nothing you've posted supports your assertions.There is no possible way to write a general election package that will be configurable for a wide variety of elections and STILL have it all hard coded.
It has to be data driven.
As long as you can lock both the general code and the data during the election.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816549</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816687</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>MrMista\_B</author>
	<datestamp>1256043300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Did you examine the code, or are you making things up?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Did you examine the code , or are you making things up ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Did you examine the code, or are you making things up?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816595</id>
	<title>Why does it have to be secrative?</title>
	<author>cosm</author>
	<datestamp>1256042940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It just seems so back-asswards that the source-code &amp; logic that sifts through millions of lines of data to determine our president is kept secret. What is the secret? There should not be anything to hide, therefore it should all be available, otherwise the machines are completely hypocritical to democratic transparency. <br>
<br>If it is the companies intellectual property that concerns the government, well perhaps there should be a clause in the contract that states contractors must provide ALL source code if they win the bid. It would seem a system like that would bolster confidence in the system, and eliminate all the negative machine-fraud issues, while allowing multitudes of individuals to find any vulnerabilities or fallibilities in system, instead of a select few of individuals.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It just seems so back-asswards that the source-code &amp; logic that sifts through millions of lines of data to determine our president is kept secret .
What is the secret ?
There should not be anything to hide , therefore it should all be available , otherwise the machines are completely hypocritical to democratic transparency .
If it is the companies intellectual property that concerns the government , well perhaps there should be a clause in the contract that states contractors must provide ALL source code if they win the bid .
It would seem a system like that would bolster confidence in the system , and eliminate all the negative machine-fraud issues , while allowing multitudes of individuals to find any vulnerabilities or fallibilities in system , instead of a select few of individuals .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It just seems so back-asswards that the source-code &amp; logic that sifts through millions of lines of data to determine our president is kept secret.
What is the secret?
There should not be anything to hide, therefore it should all be available, otherwise the machines are completely hypocritical to democratic transparency.
If it is the companies intellectual property that concerns the government, well perhaps there should be a clause in the contract that states contractors must provide ALL source code if they win the bid.
It would seem a system like that would bolster confidence in the system, and eliminate all the negative machine-fraud issues, while allowing multitudes of individuals to find any vulnerabilities or fallibilities in system, instead of a select few of individuals.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29817423</id>
	<title>Re:What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256046720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Fix it: <a href="http://metagovernment.org/" title="metagovernment.org" rel="nofollow">http://metagovernment.org/</a> [metagovernment.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fix it : http : //metagovernment.org/ [ metagovernment.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fix it: http://metagovernment.org/ [metagovernment.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816231</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816735</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256043540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not really. RTFA.</p><p>To quote the next bit:</p><p>"It violates the federal rulebook on voting systems on several levels: the rules require that code be hash-checked to prove authenticity in the field for obvious reasons. If the real working code is buried in with the data, no such hash-checks are possible. The federal rulebook is also clear that code can't be interpreted, apparently to avoid modification "in the field" (generally county or city election offices)."</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not really .
RTFA.To quote the next bit : " It violates the federal rulebook on voting systems on several levels : the rules require that code be hash-checked to prove authenticity in the field for obvious reasons .
If the real working code is buried in with the data , no such hash-checks are possible .
The federal rulebook is also clear that code ca n't be interpreted , apparently to avoid modification " in the field " ( generally county or city election offices ) .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not really.
RTFA.To quote the next bit:"It violates the federal rulebook on voting systems on several levels: the rules require that code be hash-checked to prove authenticity in the field for obvious reasons.
If the real working code is buried in with the data, no such hash-checks are possible.
The federal rulebook is also clear that code can't be interpreted, apparently to avoid modification "in the field" (generally county or city election offices).
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29824545</id>
	<title>Is BCP shell execution by DB server OK?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256145360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Is it good programming practice to have the database server execute a BCP shell command to read data into the database?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is it good programming practice to have the database server execute a BCP shell command to read data into the database ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is it good programming practice to have the database server execute a BCP shell command to read data into the database?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29823445</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816757</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256043600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They obviously don't understand much because this database is not corrupt.  I just loaded it in a SQL Server database fine.  SQL Server 2005.</p><p>There are 88 tables in the database.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They obviously do n't understand much because this database is not corrupt .
I just loaded it in a SQL Server database fine .
SQL Server 2005.There are 88 tables in the database .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They obviously don't understand much because this database is not corrupt.
I just loaded it in a SQL Server database fine.
SQL Server 2005.There are 88 tables in the database.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29819773</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperbole much</title>
	<author>palegray.net</author>
	<datestamp>1256063340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've got a friend <a href="http://jedsmith.org/?p=8" title="jedsmith.org">who agrees with you</a> [jedsmith.org].</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've got a friend who agrees with you [ jedsmith.org ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've got a friend who agrees with you [jedsmith.org].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29816251</id>
	<title>To be honest...</title>
	<author>Darkness404</author>
	<datestamp>1256040840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>To be honest shouldn't -any- code used to tally votes be released in the public domain for any US citizen?</htmltext>
<tokenext>To be honest should n't -any- code used to tally votes be released in the public domain for any US citizen ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To be honest shouldn't -any- code used to tally votes be released in the public domain for any US citizen?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29823445</id>
	<title>I've done SQL since 1983...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256140080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Databases don't need to have a single word of SQL code embedded in the database, if you're talking a real database. [As opposed to MS SQLServer, which I don't know anything about because it isn't considered a heavy-duty DB. If it needs embedded code it wasn't a suitable choice, was it?]  Any serious database can host procedural code at any level of difficulty, but need not do so.</p><p>We wrote a system with 800 tables with no procedural code embedded into the DB at all, even though it makes a number of issues easier to deal with, just because we had better controls on the code base outside the DB.</p><p>If Sequoia embedded procedural code into their DB for any reason whatsoever, they violated professional standards and FEC rules.  Their machines should be rounded up and treated like illegal slot machines after a raid - pounded into random junk with sledgehammers while the video cameras run.  I hesitate to spell out the next step, involving the managers who mandated or allowed such coding style.</p><p>The company should be dissolved, along with all the others, and we should go back to using paper and #2 pencils, which are much harder to shimmy with.<br>
&nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Databases do n't need to have a single word of SQL code embedded in the database , if you 're talking a real database .
[ As opposed to MS SQLServer , which I do n't know anything about because it is n't considered a heavy-duty DB .
If it needs embedded code it was n't a suitable choice , was it ?
] Any serious database can host procedural code at any level of difficulty , but need not do so.We wrote a system with 800 tables with no procedural code embedded into the DB at all , even though it makes a number of issues easier to deal with , just because we had better controls on the code base outside the DB.If Sequoia embedded procedural code into their DB for any reason whatsoever , they violated professional standards and FEC rules .
Their machines should be rounded up and treated like illegal slot machines after a raid - pounded into random junk with sledgehammers while the video cameras run .
I hesitate to spell out the next step , involving the managers who mandated or allowed such coding style.The company should be dissolved , along with all the others , and we should go back to using paper and # 2 pencils , which are much harder to shimmy with .
 </tokentext>
<sentencetext>Databases don't need to have a single word of SQL code embedded in the database, if you're talking a real database.
[As opposed to MS SQLServer, which I don't know anything about because it isn't considered a heavy-duty DB.
If it needs embedded code it wasn't a suitable choice, was it?
]  Any serious database can host procedural code at any level of difficulty, but need not do so.We wrote a system with 800 tables with no procedural code embedded into the DB at all, even though it makes a number of issues easier to deal with, just because we had better controls on the code base outside the DB.If Sequoia embedded procedural code into their DB for any reason whatsoever, they violated professional standards and FEC rules.
Their machines should be rounded up and treated like illegal slot machines after a raid - pounded into random junk with sledgehammers while the video cameras run.
I hesitate to spell out the next step, involving the managers who mandated or allowed such coding style.The company should be dissolved, along with all the others, and we should go back to using paper and #2 pencils, which are much harder to shimmy with.
 </sentencetext>
</comment>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_10_20_2254210_2</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_2254210.29817423
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