<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_10_20_1948237</id>
	<title>NVIDIA Driver Developer Discusses Linux Graphics</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1256033820000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>An anonymous reader writes <i>"Andy Ritger, who leads the NVIDIA UNIX Graphics Team responsible for creating drivers on Linux, FreeBSD and Solaris, has answered many questions at Phoronix about <a href="http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=14278">the state of Linux graphics, gaming, and drivers</a>. Ritger shares some interesting facts, such as: the Linux graphics driver download rate is 0.5\% that of their Windows driver downloads at NVIDIA.com; how the Nouveau developers are doing an incredible job; creating an AMD-like open-source strategy at NVIDIA would be time intensive and unlikely; and development problems for the Linux platform. Also commented on are new features that may come to their Linux driver within the next twelve months."</i> Like all stories at Phoronix, in common with most other hardware review sites, this one is arbitrarily and maddeningly spread across 8 pages.</htmltext>
<tokenext>An anonymous reader writes " Andy Ritger , who leads the NVIDIA UNIX Graphics Team responsible for creating drivers on Linux , FreeBSD and Solaris , has answered many questions at Phoronix about the state of Linux graphics , gaming , and drivers .
Ritger shares some interesting facts , such as : the Linux graphics driver download rate is 0.5 \ % that of their Windows driver downloads at NVIDIA.com ; how the Nouveau developers are doing an incredible job ; creating an AMD-like open-source strategy at NVIDIA would be time intensive and unlikely ; and development problems for the Linux platform .
Also commented on are new features that may come to their Linux driver within the next twelve months .
" Like all stories at Phoronix , in common with most other hardware review sites , this one is arbitrarily and maddeningly spread across 8 pages .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An anonymous reader writes "Andy Ritger, who leads the NVIDIA UNIX Graphics Team responsible for creating drivers on Linux, FreeBSD and Solaris, has answered many questions at Phoronix about the state of Linux graphics, gaming, and drivers.
Ritger shares some interesting facts, such as: the Linux graphics driver download rate is 0.5\% that of their Windows driver downloads at NVIDIA.com; how the Nouveau developers are doing an incredible job; creating an AMD-like open-source strategy at NVIDIA would be time intensive and unlikely; and development problems for the Linux platform.
Also commented on are new features that may come to their Linux driver within the next twelve months.
" Like all stories at Phoronix, in common with most other hardware review sites, this one is arbitrarily and maddeningly spread across 8 pages.</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29817421</id>
	<title>Not to be a grammar nazi...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256046720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your card carrying membership to the "Savvy Semicolon Users" club has officially been revoked. Please pry off the appropriate key and mail it to us promptly, or we will find you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your card carrying membership to the " Savvy Semicolon Users " club has officially been revoked .
Please pry off the appropriate key and mail it to us promptly , or we will find you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your card carrying membership to the "Savvy Semicolon Users" club has officially been revoked.
Please pry off the appropriate key and mail it to us promptly, or we will find you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816177</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256040420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Their main site seems to be broken right now, but there's the OGP:</p><ul>
<li> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open\_Graphics\_Project" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open\_Graphics\_Project</a> [wikipedia.org] </li><li> <a href="http://wiki.opengraphics.org/tiki-index.php?page=OGC+FeatureList" title="opengraphics.org">http://wiki.opengraphics.org/tiki-index.php?page=OGC+FeatureList</a> [opengraphics.org] </li><li> <a href="http://opengraphics.org/" title="opengraphics.org">http://opengraphics.org/</a> [opengraphics.org] (currently broken)</li></ul><p>They won't be cheap or fast (and they're not out yet), but they're completely open, including the hardware design.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Their main site seems to be broken right now , but there 's the OGP : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open \ _Graphics \ _Project [ wikipedia.org ] http : //wiki.opengraphics.org/tiki-index.php ? page = OGC + FeatureList [ opengraphics.org ] http : //opengraphics.org/ [ opengraphics.org ] ( currently broken ) They wo n't be cheap or fast ( and they 're not out yet ) , but they 're completely open , including the hardware design .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Their main site seems to be broken right now, but there's the OGP:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open\_Graphics\_Project [wikipedia.org]  http://wiki.opengraphics.org/tiki-index.php?page=OGC+FeatureList [opengraphics.org]  http://opengraphics.org/ [opengraphics.org] (currently broken)They won't be cheap or fast (and they're not out yet), but they're completely open, including the hardware design.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815917</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29817147</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256045340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One possible (and purely theoretical) way that this may be a problem would be if nVidia used a bunch of deprecated X APIs in their drivers, which stopped the X devs from removing support for these features and focussing on new and improved APIs, and forcing them to maintain and port old code.</p><p>Obviously this is just an indication of where one company playing dirty might hinder the overall progress of new features (like vendor-generic plug'n'play monitor support) and is not based on fact in the slightest.</p><p>CAPTCHA: apathy</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One possible ( and purely theoretical ) way that this may be a problem would be if nVidia used a bunch of deprecated X APIs in their drivers , which stopped the X devs from removing support for these features and focussing on new and improved APIs , and forcing them to maintain and port old code.Obviously this is just an indication of where one company playing dirty might hinder the overall progress of new features ( like vendor-generic plug'n'play monitor support ) and is not based on fact in the slightest.CAPTCHA : apathy</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One possible (and purely theoretical) way that this may be a problem would be if nVidia used a bunch of deprecated X APIs in their drivers, which stopped the X devs from removing support for these features and focussing on new and improved APIs, and forcing them to maintain and port old code.Obviously this is just an indication of where one company playing dirty might hinder the overall progress of new features (like vendor-generic plug'n'play monitor support) and is not based on fact in the slightest.CAPTCHA: apathy</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815895</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816255</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Kjella</author>
	<datestamp>1256040960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Scumbags. (...) They don't want to open source it because they don't believe in open source. It's that simple. Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists.</p></div><p>Oh, STFU and volunteer yourself to go write open source AMD drivers. They've been running an open source strategy now for 2+ years and they're still short on manpower even though there's plenty specs out there and AMD is actively leading the development on top of the hours they've spent getting the documentation through legal review. There's plenty evidence to suggest the open source drivers would drop dead if AMD wasn't carrying them every step of the way, you think nVidia is impressed? The alleged army of open source coders waiting for specs is more like a handful, that's not a claim it's a fact. By all means they're making great progress and all that but they're way, way behind the blobs still.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Scumbags .
( ... ) They do n't want to open source it because they do n't believe in open source .
It 's that simple .
Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists.Oh , STFU and volunteer yourself to go write open source AMD drivers .
They 've been running an open source strategy now for 2 + years and they 're still short on manpower even though there 's plenty specs out there and AMD is actively leading the development on top of the hours they 've spent getting the documentation through legal review .
There 's plenty evidence to suggest the open source drivers would drop dead if AMD was n't carrying them every step of the way , you think nVidia is impressed ?
The alleged army of open source coders waiting for specs is more like a handful , that 's not a claim it 's a fact .
By all means they 're making great progress and all that but they 're way , way behind the blobs still .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Scumbags.
(...) They don't want to open source it because they don't believe in open source.
It's that simple.
Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists.Oh, STFU and volunteer yourself to go write open source AMD drivers.
They've been running an open source strategy now for 2+ years and they're still short on manpower even though there's plenty specs out there and AMD is actively leading the development on top of the hours they've spent getting the documentation through legal review.
There's plenty evidence to suggest the open source drivers would drop dead if AMD wasn't carrying them every step of the way, you think nVidia is impressed?
The alleged army of open source coders waiting for specs is more like a handful, that's not a claim it's a fact.
By all means they're making great progress and all that but they're way, way behind the blobs still.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29824697</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256146140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>another thing that would help a lot is if Linux didn't change the ABI at the drop of a hat, ANY hat. seriously, I dont understand why you linux people put up with it. I've moved on to opensolaris, and the one time I needed a driver that I didn't have, I pulled a solaris 8 driver and dropped it in, worked like a champ. (we won't even touch on the fact that I can put whatever drivers I want it without "tainting" anything, because of sane licensing ON THE KERNEL SIDE).</p><p>and clearly you missed Larry's announcement of the Exidata 2 and their pending acquisition on Sun Microsystems (a hardware vendor)... Oracle atleast is trying to sell turnkey soluntions, hardware and software as one unit. I'll put money that they will optimize for their own kit too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>another thing that would help a lot is if Linux did n't change the ABI at the drop of a hat , ANY hat .
seriously , I dont understand why you linux people put up with it .
I 've moved on to opensolaris , and the one time I needed a driver that I did n't have , I pulled a solaris 8 driver and dropped it in , worked like a champ .
( we wo n't even touch on the fact that I can put whatever drivers I want it without " tainting " anything , because of sane licensing ON THE KERNEL SIDE ) .and clearly you missed Larry 's announcement of the Exidata 2 and their pending acquisition on Sun Microsystems ( a hardware vendor ) ... Oracle atleast is trying to sell turnkey soluntions , hardware and software as one unit .
I 'll put money that they will optimize for their own kit too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>another thing that would help a lot is if Linux didn't change the ABI at the drop of a hat, ANY hat.
seriously, I dont understand why you linux people put up with it.
I've moved on to opensolaris, and the one time I needed a driver that I didn't have, I pulled a solaris 8 driver and dropped it in, worked like a champ.
(we won't even touch on the fact that I can put whatever drivers I want it without "tainting" anything, because of sane licensing ON THE KERNEL SIDE).and clearly you missed Larry's announcement of the Exidata 2 and their pending acquisition on Sun Microsystems (a hardware vendor)... Oracle atleast is trying to sell turnkey soluntions, hardware and software as one unit.
I'll put money that they will optimize for their own kit too.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816915</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29818283</id>
	<title>Re:Lies, damn lies, and download rates</title>
	<author>Brebs</author>
	<datestamp>1256051940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>it replaces system-provided OpenGL libraries with little warning</p></div><p>Because it has to, thanks to Xorg *not* providing a decent alternative. Wouldn't ya think that Xorg, being open-source (TM), shouldn't have such a problem<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>it replaces system-provided OpenGL libraries with little warningBecause it has to , thanks to Xorg * not * providing a decent alternative .
Would n't ya think that Xorg , being open-source ( TM ) , should n't have such a problem ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>it replaces system-provided OpenGL libraries with little warningBecause it has to, thanks to Xorg *not* providing a decent alternative.
Wouldn't ya think that Xorg, being open-source (TM), shouldn't have such a problem ;)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815935</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815767</id>
	<title>Re:Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>Wowsers</author>
	<datestamp>1256038260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I used to go off to the Nvidia site to download the Nvidia drivers for my card, then manually installing the driver.</p><p>Then I read about DKMS packages in the repositories that I could install, so every time the Kernel got updated, the package for the graphics driver got automatically recompiled with that Kernel. I was unsure about trying it, but when I did I never looked back, it's been great. Never had to manually edit the xorg.conf file ever again (although I have a backup just in case it goes wrong).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to go off to the Nvidia site to download the Nvidia drivers for my card , then manually installing the driver.Then I read about DKMS packages in the repositories that I could install , so every time the Kernel got updated , the package for the graphics driver got automatically recompiled with that Kernel .
I was unsure about trying it , but when I did I never looked back , it 's been great .
Never had to manually edit the xorg.conf file ever again ( although I have a backup just in case it goes wrong ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to go off to the Nvidia site to download the Nvidia drivers for my card, then manually installing the driver.Then I read about DKMS packages in the repositories that I could install, so every time the Kernel got updated, the package for the graphics driver got automatically recompiled with that Kernel.
I was unsure about trying it, but when I did I never looked back, it's been great.
Never had to manually edit the xorg.conf file ever again (although I have a backup just in case it goes wrong).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815609</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29821555</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256128800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just two guys? Really? I think that actually proofs the point of the GP. NVIDEA surely is not impressed by that number.</p><p>Question: How do they keep up with the new hardware releases?<br>Answer: They just can't because of lack of manpower.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just two guys ?
Really ? I think that actually proofs the point of the GP .
NVIDEA surely is not impressed by that number.Question : How do they keep up with the new hardware releases ? Answer : They just ca n't because of lack of manpower .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just two guys?
Really? I think that actually proofs the point of the GP.
NVIDEA surely is not impressed by that number.Question: How do they keep up with the new hardware releases?Answer: They just can't because of lack of manpower.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29817293</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29817739</id>
	<title>Re:Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256048580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Plus six different "themes" for the bloated control panel, etc etc etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Plus six different " themes " for the bloated control panel , etc etc etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Plus six different "themes" for the bloated control panel, etc etc etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815993</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29821649</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256129580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why do any of the points you've raised preclude nVidia from helping Nouveau?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why do any of the points you 've raised preclude nVidia from helping Nouveau ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why do any of the points you've raised preclude nVidia from helping Nouveau?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816105</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815905</id>
	<title>2009</title>
	<author>ciderVisor</author>
	<datestamp>1256038800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The year of Linux on NVIDEA.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The year of Linux on NVIDEA .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The year of Linux on NVIDEA.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29818901</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>inode\_buddha</author>
	<datestamp>1256055780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You might be surprised about reverse engineering, considering how many drivers are created in just that way. Let alone things like SAMBA. Guru kernel hackers like Alan Cox and Greg K-H eat that stuff for breakfast it seems; they enjoy something halfway challenging. Having said that, the best 3D support I ever had was from a 3dfx VooDoo card right before nvidia bought them. Pity we can't do drivers like that anymore without nvidia's input and guidance.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You might be surprised about reverse engineering , considering how many drivers are created in just that way .
Let alone things like SAMBA .
Guru kernel hackers like Alan Cox and Greg K-H eat that stuff for breakfast it seems ; they enjoy something halfway challenging .
Having said that , the best 3D support I ever had was from a 3dfx VooDoo card right before nvidia bought them .
Pity we ca n't do drivers like that anymore without nvidia 's input and guidance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You might be surprised about reverse engineering, considering how many drivers are created in just that way.
Let alone things like SAMBA.
Guru kernel hackers like Alan Cox and Greg K-H eat that stuff for breakfast it seems; they enjoy something halfway challenging.
Having said that, the best 3D support I ever had was from a 3dfx VooDoo card right before nvidia bought them.
Pity we can't do drivers like that anymore without nvidia's input and guidance.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816105</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815841</id>
	<title>Re:Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>sakdoctor</author>
	<datestamp>1256038560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I just checked the nvidia site for the first time for linux drivers.</p><p>Operating System: Windows Server 2003 64-bit, Windows XP 64-bit<br>File Size: 123 MB</p><p>Operating System: Linux 64-bit<br>File Size: 21.2 MB<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...What?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I just checked the nvidia site for the first time for linux drivers.Operating System : Windows Server 2003 64-bit , Windows XP 64-bitFile Size : 123 MBOperating System : Linux 64-bitFile Size : 21.2 MB ...What ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just checked the nvidia site for the first time for linux drivers.Operating System: Windows Server 2003 64-bit, Windows XP 64-bitFile Size: 123 MBOperating System: Linux 64-bitFile Size: 21.2 MB ...What?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815609</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</id>
	<title>There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>QuantumG</author>
	<datestamp>1256037960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> <b>Q: Are there any plans in place to provide new features within the xf86-video-nv driver or to better engage with the Nouveau developers for some open-source support?</b></p><p>With the nv driver, we've always tried to provide something minimal that just works out of the box and requires the least maintenance. For that reason, feature set in the nv driver has stayed pretty slim.</p><p>The guys working on nouveau have done a really incredible job so far. However, our policy remains the same: we won't try to hinder their efforts, but we have no plans to help them.</p></div><p>Scumbags.</p><p><div class="quote"><p> <b>Q: AMD was able to open source and/or document a lot by separating out the parts they couldn't legally disclose. Similar problems have been cited as preventing NVIDIA from open sourcing their driver (licensed 3rd parts code, etc) or documentation. Could nVidia use the same strategy?</b></p><p>A similar strategy might be technically possible for NVIDIA, but for better or worse I think it is quite unlikely. There are several reasons for this:</p><p>- For competitive reasons on other platforms, I don't think we would ever open source any of our cross-platform driver source code (which is 90\%+ of the Linux driver... see my earlier description of code sharing). The Linux-specific pieces of the driver code base don't really stand on their own, and generally need to change in sync with the cross-platform code, so I don't believe it would be practical to just open source the Linux-specific pieces.</p><p>- We have developed substantial IP in our graphics driver that we do not want to expose.</p><p>- Unfortunately the vast majority of our documentation is created solely for internal distribution. While at some point it may be possible to release some of this information in pubic form it would be quite a monumental effort to go through the vast amounts of internal documents and repurpose them for external consumption.</p></div><p>Yes, and there's a whole community that would like to help you do that.  That second answer is the real point here.  They don't want to open source it <b>because they don't believe in open source</b>.  It's that simple.  Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Q : Are there any plans in place to provide new features within the xf86-video-nv driver or to better engage with the Nouveau developers for some open-source support ? With the nv driver , we 've always tried to provide something minimal that just works out of the box and requires the least maintenance .
For that reason , feature set in the nv driver has stayed pretty slim.The guys working on nouveau have done a really incredible job so far .
However , our policy remains the same : we wo n't try to hinder their efforts , but we have no plans to help them.Scumbags .
Q : AMD was able to open source and/or document a lot by separating out the parts they could n't legally disclose .
Similar problems have been cited as preventing NVIDIA from open sourcing their driver ( licensed 3rd parts code , etc ) or documentation .
Could nVidia use the same strategy ? A similar strategy might be technically possible for NVIDIA , but for better or worse I think it is quite unlikely .
There are several reasons for this : - For competitive reasons on other platforms , I do n't think we would ever open source any of our cross-platform driver source code ( which is 90 \ % + of the Linux driver... see my earlier description of code sharing ) .
The Linux-specific pieces of the driver code base do n't really stand on their own , and generally need to change in sync with the cross-platform code , so I do n't believe it would be practical to just open source the Linux-specific pieces.- We have developed substantial IP in our graphics driver that we do not want to expose.- Unfortunately the vast majority of our documentation is created solely for internal distribution .
While at some point it may be possible to release some of this information in pubic form it would be quite a monumental effort to go through the vast amounts of internal documents and repurpose them for external consumption.Yes , and there 's a whole community that would like to help you do that .
That second answer is the real point here .
They do n't want to open source it because they do n't believe in open source .
It 's that simple .
Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Q: Are there any plans in place to provide new features within the xf86-video-nv driver or to better engage with the Nouveau developers for some open-source support?With the nv driver, we've always tried to provide something minimal that just works out of the box and requires the least maintenance.
For that reason, feature set in the nv driver has stayed pretty slim.The guys working on nouveau have done a really incredible job so far.
However, our policy remains the same: we won't try to hinder their efforts, but we have no plans to help them.Scumbags.
Q: AMD was able to open source and/or document a lot by separating out the parts they couldn't legally disclose.
Similar problems have been cited as preventing NVIDIA from open sourcing their driver (licensed 3rd parts code, etc) or documentation.
Could nVidia use the same strategy?A similar strategy might be technically possible for NVIDIA, but for better or worse I think it is quite unlikely.
There are several reasons for this:- For competitive reasons on other platforms, I don't think we would ever open source any of our cross-platform driver source code (which is 90\%+ of the Linux driver... see my earlier description of code sharing).
The Linux-specific pieces of the driver code base don't really stand on their own, and generally need to change in sync with the cross-platform code, so I don't believe it would be practical to just open source the Linux-specific pieces.- We have developed substantial IP in our graphics driver that we do not want to expose.- Unfortunately the vast majority of our documentation is created solely for internal distribution.
While at some point it may be possible to release some of this information in pubic form it would be quite a monumental effort to go through the vast amounts of internal documents and repurpose them for external consumption.Yes, and there's a whole community that would like to help you do that.
That second answer is the real point here.
They don't want to open source it because they don't believe in open source.
It's that simple.
Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29818537</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256053440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree with certain parts of your post, specifically, your signature.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with certain parts of your post , specifically , your signature .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with certain parts of your post, specifically, your signature.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29817857</id>
	<title>Of course the the ratio sucks.</title>
	<author>Hillview</author>
	<datestamp>1256049300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I install the Nvidia X server once on a box and leave it.  If it has trouble, then I'll update it.  Translation: very rarely.

I install the Nvida drivers on my windows partition (on the same box) an average of once per month.  Because I either just reinstalled windows (again) or I'm trying to fix a compatibility issue (again.)

So yeah, that ratio surprises me.. well, none at all.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I install the Nvidia X server once on a box and leave it .
If it has trouble , then I 'll update it .
Translation : very rarely .
I install the Nvida drivers on my windows partition ( on the same box ) an average of once per month .
Because I either just reinstalled windows ( again ) or I 'm trying to fix a compatibility issue ( again .
) So yeah , that ratio surprises me.. well , none at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I install the Nvidia X server once on a box and leave it.
If it has trouble, then I'll update it.
Translation: very rarely.
I install the Nvida drivers on my windows partition (on the same box) an average of once per month.
Because I either just reinstalled windows (again) or I'm trying to fix a compatibility issue (again.
)

So yeah, that ratio surprises me.. well, none at all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815677</id>
	<title>Re:Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256037900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Quote from the article:<p><div class="quote"><p> <b>Q: Overall, what percentage of NVIDIA's customers do you believe use Linux?</b>

</p><p>I don't know many concrete percentages. Highend workstation visualization is roughly half Linux, and Digital Content Creation (DCC) is largely Linux. NVIDIA Linux graphics powers a respectable portion of the 3D workstations. Our CUDA user base also has a large Linux contingent.

</p><p>However, the number of Linux driver downloads
from nvidia.com is only 0.5\% the number of nvidia.com Windows driver downloads. <i>Of course, many Linux users get our driver through distro packages and other means that wouldn't be measured in that download figure.</i>

</p><p>Measuring the size of the NVIDIA Linux user base has always been a challenge for us.</p></div><p>Italics mine.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Quote from the article : Q : Overall , what percentage of NVIDIA 's customers do you believe use Linux ?
I do n't know many concrete percentages .
Highend workstation visualization is roughly half Linux , and Digital Content Creation ( DCC ) is largely Linux .
NVIDIA Linux graphics powers a respectable portion of the 3D workstations .
Our CUDA user base also has a large Linux contingent .
However , the number of Linux driver downloads from nvidia.com is only 0.5 \ % the number of nvidia.com Windows driver downloads .
Of course , many Linux users get our driver through distro packages and other means that would n't be measured in that download figure .
Measuring the size of the NVIDIA Linux user base has always been a challenge for us.Italics mine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Quote from the article: Q: Overall, what percentage of NVIDIA's customers do you believe use Linux?
I don't know many concrete percentages.
Highend workstation visualization is roughly half Linux, and Digital Content Creation (DCC) is largely Linux.
NVIDIA Linux graphics powers a respectable portion of the 3D workstations.
Our CUDA user base also has a large Linux contingent.
However, the number of Linux driver downloads
from nvidia.com is only 0.5\% the number of nvidia.com Windows driver downloads.
Of course, many Linux users get our driver through distro packages and other means that wouldn't be measured in that download figure.
Measuring the size of the NVIDIA Linux user base has always been a challenge for us.Italics mine.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815609</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29817491</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>klapaucjusz</author>
	<datestamp>1256047080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>if a company produces a stable, reliable product with closed software and the market is willing to pay for it, what difference does it make?</p></div><p>You just failed Adam Smith 101.  The fact that the <i>uninformed</i> public is willing to buy NVIDIA hardware doesn't mean that using a binary driver is a good idea.

</p><p>First, you have no guarantees that the driver will continue being developed. If tomorrow some suit at NVIDIA decides that maintaining Linux drivers is not worth their while, you end up with a piece of hardware that cannot be used with recent kernels.

</p><p>Second, any problems you may have while running their drivers are essentially undebuggable.  This removes you from the pool of people able to submit useful debugging logs, which is bad for the whole Linux user-base.

</p><p>Third, binary drivers are only available for Windows, Linux, FreeBSD and Solaris.  If, for some reason, you decide that, say, NetBSD is more suitable for you, you're stuck -- you cannot switch without changing your hardware. This makes competing with Linux more difficult, and hence is bad for everyone -- including Linux users.

</p><p>In short, using a binary driver is bad for you and bad for the Free Software community.  Please consider spending your money in a more informed manner in the future.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Speculation: some of their binary code dynamically optimizes an FPGA on board for better performance.</p></div><p>Please mod parent as <i>+1 Funny</i>.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>if a company produces a stable , reliable product with closed software and the market is willing to pay for it , what difference does it make ? You just failed Adam Smith 101 .
The fact that the uninformed public is willing to buy NVIDIA hardware does n't mean that using a binary driver is a good idea .
First , you have no guarantees that the driver will continue being developed .
If tomorrow some suit at NVIDIA decides that maintaining Linux drivers is not worth their while , you end up with a piece of hardware that can not be used with recent kernels .
Second , any problems you may have while running their drivers are essentially undebuggable .
This removes you from the pool of people able to submit useful debugging logs , which is bad for the whole Linux user-base .
Third , binary drivers are only available for Windows , Linux , FreeBSD and Solaris .
If , for some reason , you decide that , say , NetBSD is more suitable for you , you 're stuck -- you can not switch without changing your hardware .
This makes competing with Linux more difficult , and hence is bad for everyone -- including Linux users .
In short , using a binary driver is bad for you and bad for the Free Software community .
Please consider spending your money in a more informed manner in the future.Speculation : some of their binary code dynamically optimizes an FPGA on board for better performance.Please mod parent as + 1 Funny .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if a company produces a stable, reliable product with closed software and the market is willing to pay for it, what difference does it make?You just failed Adam Smith 101.
The fact that the uninformed public is willing to buy NVIDIA hardware doesn't mean that using a binary driver is a good idea.
First, you have no guarantees that the driver will continue being developed.
If tomorrow some suit at NVIDIA decides that maintaining Linux drivers is not worth their while, you end up with a piece of hardware that cannot be used with recent kernels.
Second, any problems you may have while running their drivers are essentially undebuggable.
This removes you from the pool of people able to submit useful debugging logs, which is bad for the whole Linux user-base.
Third, binary drivers are only available for Windows, Linux, FreeBSD and Solaris.
If, for some reason, you decide that, say, NetBSD is more suitable for you, you're stuck -- you cannot switch without changing your hardware.
This makes competing with Linux more difficult, and hence is bad for everyone -- including Linux users.
In short, using a binary driver is bad for you and bad for the Free Software community.
Please consider spending your money in a more informed manner in the future.Speculation: some of their binary code dynamically optimizes an FPGA on board for better performance.Please mod parent as +1 Funny.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815895</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816151</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>\_Sprocket\_</author>
	<datestamp>1256040240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Yes, and there's a whole community that would like to help you do that.  That second answer is the real point here.  They don't want to open source it <b>because they don't believe in open source</b>.  It's that simple.  Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists.</p></div><p>My next purchase will be AMD/ATI as soon as the drivers give me performance that match NVIDIA.  I'm hoping that time comes soon.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , and there 's a whole community that would like to help you do that .
That second answer is the real point here .
They do n't want to open source it because they do n't believe in open source .
It 's that simple .
Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists.My next purchase will be AMD/ATI as soon as the drivers give me performance that match NVIDIA .
I 'm hoping that time comes soon .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, and there's a whole community that would like to help you do that.
That second answer is the real point here.
They don't want to open source it because they don't believe in open source.
It's that simple.
Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists.My next purchase will be AMD/ATI as soon as the drivers give me performance that match NVIDIA.
I'm hoping that time comes soon.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29817293</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256046060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sure the radeon/radeonhd drivers are in need of help, but most radeon developement is being done by two non-ATI guys.<br>Sure the 3D rendering is behind the blobs, but not that far behind <a href="http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/RadeonProgram" title="freedesktop.org">[1]</a> [freedesktop.org]<br>And the 2D drivers are <a href="http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&amp;item=amd\_r600\_r700\_2d&amp;num=2" title="phoronix.com">faster</a> [phoronix.com]<br>And in my experience way more stable (outside of KMS issues i have had 0 crashes under radeon, the same could not be said for catalyst or nvidia drivers)</p><p>The reality is that for everyday use*, ATI cards now work out of the box on linux with rock solid stability this is not the case for nvidia, and it's just a matter of time till the 3D support catches up with nvidia's and firmly place ATI cards as #1 choice for Linux users (if its not already)</p><p>*call me old fashioned, but i don't consider <a href="http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=47" title="botchco.com">compositing</a> [botchco.com] part of that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure the radeon/radeonhd drivers are in need of help , but most radeon developement is being done by two non-ATI guys.Sure the 3D rendering is behind the blobs , but not that far behind [ 1 ] [ freedesktop.org ] And the 2D drivers are faster [ phoronix.com ] And in my experience way more stable ( outside of KMS issues i have had 0 crashes under radeon , the same could not be said for catalyst or nvidia drivers ) The reality is that for everyday use * , ATI cards now work out of the box on linux with rock solid stability this is not the case for nvidia , and it 's just a matter of time till the 3D support catches up with nvidia 's and firmly place ATI cards as # 1 choice for Linux users ( if its not already ) * call me old fashioned , but i do n't consider compositing [ botchco.com ] part of that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure the radeon/radeonhd drivers are in need of help, but most radeon developement is being done by two non-ATI guys.Sure the 3D rendering is behind the blobs, but not that far behind [1] [freedesktop.org]And the 2D drivers are faster [phoronix.com]And in my experience way more stable (outside of KMS issues i have had 0 crashes under radeon, the same could not be said for catalyst or nvidia drivers)The reality is that for everyday use*, ATI cards now work out of the box on linux with rock solid stability this is not the case for nvidia, and it's just a matter of time till the 3D support catches up with nvidia's and firmly place ATI cards as #1 choice for Linux users (if its not already)*call me old fashioned, but i don't consider compositing [botchco.com] part of that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816255</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29821601</id>
	<title>Re:Hopefully this will put an end to some trolling</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256129220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Unstable kernel API? Who says this.. @)(*&amp;\%#@@! (connection lost)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unstable kernel API ?
Who says this.. @ ) ( * &amp; \ % # @ @ ! ( connection lost )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unstable kernel API?
Who says this.. @)(*&amp;\%#@@! (connection lost)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815855</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29817081</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>TheSunborn</author>
	<datestamp>1256045040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If there is such a large community why are they not working on the ati drivers? And if they are, why does the ati linux drivers still sucks?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If there is such a large community why are they not working on the ati drivers ?
And if they are , why does the ati linux drivers still sucks ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If there is such a large community why are they not working on the ati drivers?
And if they are, why does the ati linux drivers still sucks?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815895</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256038800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Yes, and there's a whole community that would like to help you do that. That second answer is the real point here. They don't want to open source it because they don't believe in open source. It's that simple. Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists.</p></div></blockquote><p>No it won't.  I have dual 9800s and it runs WoW like a champ (read: no spontaneous system resets or strange/spurious bugs.)  I'm unlikely to change to a card with an open source driver anytime soon, <b>because what I have right now works.</b></p><p>I'm really mystified by this attitude - if a company produces a stable, reliable product with closed software and the market is willing to pay for it, what difference does it make?  It's not like they are charging $$$$ for crappy product, like, say, Windows.  And if you can't understand nVidia's position - e.g. maybe they really DO have some novel graphics processing pipeline in their software that provides them with a competitive speed advantage over the competition - then it's worth keeping it obscured.  That's capitalism.  (Speculation: some of their binary code dynamically optimizes an FPGA on board for better performance.)  You can be damned sure that if I suddenly managed to come up with a novel algorithm for faster database transactions that I'd keep it secret, too, and then sell the hell out of it in competition with Oracle and DB2.  Again, that's not bad, <b>that's competition.</b></p><p>Don't get me wrong, I doubt that 95\% of the code that is closed is actually worth closing.  It really might be that last 5\% scattered everywhere that warrants keeping it closed.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , and there 's a whole community that would like to help you do that .
That second answer is the real point here .
They do n't want to open source it because they do n't believe in open source .
It 's that simple .
Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists.No it wo n't .
I have dual 9800s and it runs WoW like a champ ( read : no spontaneous system resets or strange/spurious bugs .
) I 'm unlikely to change to a card with an open source driver anytime soon , because what I have right now works.I 'm really mystified by this attitude - if a company produces a stable , reliable product with closed software and the market is willing to pay for it , what difference does it make ?
It 's not like they are charging $ $ $ $ for crappy product , like , say , Windows .
And if you ca n't understand nVidia 's position - e.g .
maybe they really DO have some novel graphics processing pipeline in their software that provides them with a competitive speed advantage over the competition - then it 's worth keeping it obscured .
That 's capitalism .
( Speculation : some of their binary code dynamically optimizes an FPGA on board for better performance .
) You can be damned sure that if I suddenly managed to come up with a novel algorithm for faster database transactions that I 'd keep it secret , too , and then sell the hell out of it in competition with Oracle and DB2 .
Again , that 's not bad , that 's competition.Do n't get me wrong , I doubt that 95 \ % of the code that is closed is actually worth closing .
It really might be that last 5 \ % scattered everywhere that warrants keeping it closed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, and there's a whole community that would like to help you do that.
That second answer is the real point here.
They don't want to open source it because they don't believe in open source.
It's that simple.
Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists.No it won't.
I have dual 9800s and it runs WoW like a champ (read: no spontaneous system resets or strange/spurious bugs.
)  I'm unlikely to change to a card with an open source driver anytime soon, because what I have right now works.I'm really mystified by this attitude - if a company produces a stable, reliable product with closed software and the market is willing to pay for it, what difference does it make?
It's not like they are charging $$$$ for crappy product, like, say, Windows.
And if you can't understand nVidia's position - e.g.
maybe they really DO have some novel graphics processing pipeline in their software that provides them with a competitive speed advantage over the competition - then it's worth keeping it obscured.
That's capitalism.
(Speculation: some of their binary code dynamically optimizes an FPGA on board for better performance.
)  You can be damned sure that if I suddenly managed to come up with a novel algorithm for faster database transactions that I'd keep it secret, too, and then sell the hell out of it in competition with Oracle and DB2.
Again, that's not bad, that's competition.Don't get me wrong, I doubt that 95\% of the code that is closed is actually worth closing.
It really might be that last 5\% scattered everywhere that warrants keeping it closed.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29819523</id>
	<title>Re:Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256060940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wrong.  Linux gives you 6x less features from the hardware it supports.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wrong .
Linux gives you 6x less features from the hardware it supports .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wrong.
Linux gives you 6x less features from the hardware it supports.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816091</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816915</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256044320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Actually, there's a pragmatic reason for open-source in preference to closed-source: it integrates much better with a Linux distro.  I have an Nvidia card too, and setting it up isn't the easiest thing.  As mentioned in the article, you can't just open the Nvidia graphical config program and reconfigure your display on-the-fly.  I just installed a new monitor last night on Kubuntu and had to go through this.  While the Nvidia graphical config program works, it can't save an xorg.conf file in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/X11 because it doesn't have permissions (it wasn't run sudo, since I just picked it from the "System" menu).  So I had to save it in my home dir and manually copy it.  Even then, it didn't work that well; I ended up running it three times I think, and getting three different xorg.conf files even with the same settings.  I finally stumbled on one that works with my dual-monitor (TwinView) setup.</p><p>With open-sourced drivers and utilities, the community and distros are able to fix issues like this, and distros are able to much better integrate these things into their system.  With closed-source stuff, there's only so much they can do, because they don't have access to the code, and even if parts of it were OSS (like the utilities), distros and the community are much less likely to expend any effort on them if the important parts are still closed-source.</p><p>The linkage between closed-source drivers and the kernel isn't all that reliable either.  A lot of kernel symbols are exported with "EXPORT\_SYMBOL\_GPL", so proprietary drivers can't use them.  Kernel devs aren't very friendly towards closed-source drivers, and when bugs show up involving closed-source drivers, they refuse to help (how can they? The code is secret), whereas with open-source drivers, they can debug the problem.  So, there's a pretty big price paid in maintaining a closed-source driver.</p><p><i>And if you can't understand nVidia's position - e.g. maybe they really DO have some novel graphics processing pipeline in their software that provides them with a competitive speed advantage over the competition - then it's worth keeping it obscured. That's capitalism.</i></p><p>Nvidia isn't a software company, it's a hardware company.  They sell graphics chips, which are used by OEMs like Giga-Byte and ECS to make graphics cards for the high-performance graphics card market.  There's only one other vendor out there that's even remotely competitive: ATI (now part of AMD).  I'm not a graphics expert, but honestly, what could they possibly be doing in software that makes their hardware run so much better?  ATI doesn't seem to feel the same way, because they had no problem open-sourcing their drivers.</p><p><i>You can be damned sure that if I suddenly managed to come up with a novel algorithm for faster database transactions that I'd keep it secret, too, and then sell the hell out of it in competition with Oracle and DB2. Again, that's not bad, that's competition.</i></p><p>That's apples and oranges.  Databases aren't sold bundled with hardware; they're a purely software product.  Oracle databases don't require a special Oracle PCIe adaptor card; they run on any sufficient hardware and supported operating system.  Nvidia isn't selling drivers, they're selling graphics cards.  What's more, databases and other high-level software is very distinct from the OS and hardware it runs on.  Even Oracle databases come in versions for every major OS: Windows, Linux, Solaris, etc.  It's no big deal, if you're a Linux distro, if Oracle is open-source or closed-source.  Heck, it's probably no big deal for Oracle to make<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.rpm versions of its products, targeted at specific RHEL and SLES versions, making installation just as simple as any open-source app.  This isn't the case with a graphics driver, for the reasons I pointed out above.  It really needs to integrate better with the distro, and that isn't possible if it's closed-source, unless Nvidia does the integration work themselves for each targeted distro (which they don't).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , there 's a pragmatic reason for open-source in preference to closed-source : it integrates much better with a Linux distro .
I have an Nvidia card too , and setting it up is n't the easiest thing .
As mentioned in the article , you ca n't just open the Nvidia graphical config program and reconfigure your display on-the-fly .
I just installed a new monitor last night on Kubuntu and had to go through this .
While the Nvidia graphical config program works , it ca n't save an xorg.conf file in /etc/X11 because it does n't have permissions ( it was n't run sudo , since I just picked it from the " System " menu ) .
So I had to save it in my home dir and manually copy it .
Even then , it did n't work that well ; I ended up running it three times I think , and getting three different xorg.conf files even with the same settings .
I finally stumbled on one that works with my dual-monitor ( TwinView ) setup.With open-sourced drivers and utilities , the community and distros are able to fix issues like this , and distros are able to much better integrate these things into their system .
With closed-source stuff , there 's only so much they can do , because they do n't have access to the code , and even if parts of it were OSS ( like the utilities ) , distros and the community are much less likely to expend any effort on them if the important parts are still closed-source.The linkage between closed-source drivers and the kernel is n't all that reliable either .
A lot of kernel symbols are exported with " EXPORT \ _SYMBOL \ _GPL " , so proprietary drivers ca n't use them .
Kernel devs are n't very friendly towards closed-source drivers , and when bugs show up involving closed-source drivers , they refuse to help ( how can they ?
The code is secret ) , whereas with open-source drivers , they can debug the problem .
So , there 's a pretty big price paid in maintaining a closed-source driver.And if you ca n't understand nVidia 's position - e.g .
maybe they really DO have some novel graphics processing pipeline in their software that provides them with a competitive speed advantage over the competition - then it 's worth keeping it obscured .
That 's capitalism.Nvidia is n't a software company , it 's a hardware company .
They sell graphics chips , which are used by OEMs like Giga-Byte and ECS to make graphics cards for the high-performance graphics card market .
There 's only one other vendor out there that 's even remotely competitive : ATI ( now part of AMD ) .
I 'm not a graphics expert , but honestly , what could they possibly be doing in software that makes their hardware run so much better ?
ATI does n't seem to feel the same way , because they had no problem open-sourcing their drivers.You can be damned sure that if I suddenly managed to come up with a novel algorithm for faster database transactions that I 'd keep it secret , too , and then sell the hell out of it in competition with Oracle and DB2 .
Again , that 's not bad , that 's competition.That 's apples and oranges .
Databases are n't sold bundled with hardware ; they 're a purely software product .
Oracle databases do n't require a special Oracle PCIe adaptor card ; they run on any sufficient hardware and supported operating system .
Nvidia is n't selling drivers , they 're selling graphics cards .
What 's more , databases and other high-level software is very distinct from the OS and hardware it runs on .
Even Oracle databases come in versions for every major OS : Windows , Linux , Solaris , etc .
It 's no big deal , if you 're a Linux distro , if Oracle is open-source or closed-source .
Heck , it 's probably no big deal for Oracle to make .rpm versions of its products , targeted at specific RHEL and SLES versions , making installation just as simple as any open-source app .
This is n't the case with a graphics driver , for the reasons I pointed out above .
It really needs to integrate better with the distro , and that is n't possible if it 's closed-source , unless Nvidia does the integration work themselves for each targeted distro ( which they do n't ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, there's a pragmatic reason for open-source in preference to closed-source: it integrates much better with a Linux distro.
I have an Nvidia card too, and setting it up isn't the easiest thing.
As mentioned in the article, you can't just open the Nvidia graphical config program and reconfigure your display on-the-fly.
I just installed a new monitor last night on Kubuntu and had to go through this.
While the Nvidia graphical config program works, it can't save an xorg.conf file in /etc/X11 because it doesn't have permissions (it wasn't run sudo, since I just picked it from the "System" menu).
So I had to save it in my home dir and manually copy it.
Even then, it didn't work that well; I ended up running it three times I think, and getting three different xorg.conf files even with the same settings.
I finally stumbled on one that works with my dual-monitor (TwinView) setup.With open-sourced drivers and utilities, the community and distros are able to fix issues like this, and distros are able to much better integrate these things into their system.
With closed-source stuff, there's only so much they can do, because they don't have access to the code, and even if parts of it were OSS (like the utilities), distros and the community are much less likely to expend any effort on them if the important parts are still closed-source.The linkage between closed-source drivers and the kernel isn't all that reliable either.
A lot of kernel symbols are exported with "EXPORT\_SYMBOL\_GPL", so proprietary drivers can't use them.
Kernel devs aren't very friendly towards closed-source drivers, and when bugs show up involving closed-source drivers, they refuse to help (how can they?
The code is secret), whereas with open-source drivers, they can debug the problem.
So, there's a pretty big price paid in maintaining a closed-source driver.And if you can't understand nVidia's position - e.g.
maybe they really DO have some novel graphics processing pipeline in their software that provides them with a competitive speed advantage over the competition - then it's worth keeping it obscured.
That's capitalism.Nvidia isn't a software company, it's a hardware company.
They sell graphics chips, which are used by OEMs like Giga-Byte and ECS to make graphics cards for the high-performance graphics card market.
There's only one other vendor out there that's even remotely competitive: ATI (now part of AMD).
I'm not a graphics expert, but honestly, what could they possibly be doing in software that makes their hardware run so much better?
ATI doesn't seem to feel the same way, because they had no problem open-sourcing their drivers.You can be damned sure that if I suddenly managed to come up with a novel algorithm for faster database transactions that I'd keep it secret, too, and then sell the hell out of it in competition with Oracle and DB2.
Again, that's not bad, that's competition.That's apples and oranges.
Databases aren't sold bundled with hardware; they're a purely software product.
Oracle databases don't require a special Oracle PCIe adaptor card; they run on any sufficient hardware and supported operating system.
Nvidia isn't selling drivers, they're selling graphics cards.
What's more, databases and other high-level software is very distinct from the OS and hardware it runs on.
Even Oracle databases come in versions for every major OS: Windows, Linux, Solaris, etc.
It's no big deal, if you're a Linux distro, if Oracle is open-source or closed-source.
Heck, it's probably no big deal for Oracle to make .rpm versions of its products, targeted at specific RHEL and SLES versions, making installation just as simple as any open-source app.
This isn't the case with a graphics driver, for the reasons I pointed out above.
It really needs to integrate better with the distro, and that isn't possible if it's closed-source, unless Nvidia does the integration work themselves for each targeted distro (which they don't).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815895</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29826481</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256153100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>And trust me, I don't care how good a dev team you've put together, if they simply dumped the driver code out on the net I guarantee no one would be able to reverse engineer the damn thing.</p></div></blockquote><p>You've been hiring OpenOffice.org developers, I see!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And trust me , I do n't care how good a dev team you 've put together , if they simply dumped the driver code out on the net I guarantee no one would be able to reverse engineer the damn thing.You 've been hiring OpenOffice.org developers , I see !
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And trust me, I don't care how good a dev team you've put together, if they simply dumped the driver code out on the net I guarantee no one would be able to reverse engineer the damn thing.You've been hiring OpenOffice.org developers, I see!
;)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816105</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815917</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256038860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is you basically have to choose between NVidia and ATI.</p><p>What we really need is someone to come up with the graphics equiv of OpenMoko and get it out there. A truly open graphics card.<br>If you can point me to one, I'll buy it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is you basically have to choose between NVidia and ATI.What we really need is someone to come up with the graphics equiv of OpenMoko and get it out there .
A truly open graphics card.If you can point me to one , I 'll buy it : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is you basically have to choose between NVidia and ATI.What we really need is someone to come up with the graphics equiv of OpenMoko and get it out there.
A truly open graphics card.If you can point me to one, I'll buy it :)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816501</id>
	<title>Re:Hopefully this will put an end to some trolling</title>
	<author>thue</author>
	<datestamp>1256042460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Saying that NVIDIA think the unstable kernel API being "very little trouble" is a little understated. What they actually say in the article:</p><p><i>1) The lack of a stable API in the Linux kernel. This is not a large obstacle for us, though: the kernel interface layer of the NVIDIA kernel module is distributed as source code, and compiled at install time for the version and configuration of the kernel in use. This requires occasional maintenance to update for new kernel interface changes, but generally is not too much work.</i></p><p><i>That said, the kernel API churn sometimes seems unfortunate: in some cases, working interfaces are broken or replaced with broken ones for no seemingly good reason. In some other cases, APIs that were previously available to us are rendered unusable.</i></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Saying that NVIDIA think the unstable kernel API being " very little trouble " is a little understated .
What they actually say in the article : 1 ) The lack of a stable API in the Linux kernel .
This is not a large obstacle for us , though : the kernel interface layer of the NVIDIA kernel module is distributed as source code , and compiled at install time for the version and configuration of the kernel in use .
This requires occasional maintenance to update for new kernel interface changes , but generally is not too much work.That said , the kernel API churn sometimes seems unfortunate : in some cases , working interfaces are broken or replaced with broken ones for no seemingly good reason .
In some other cases , APIs that were previously available to us are rendered unusable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Saying that NVIDIA think the unstable kernel API being "very little trouble" is a little understated.
What they actually say in the article:1) The lack of a stable API in the Linux kernel.
This is not a large obstacle for us, though: the kernel interface layer of the NVIDIA kernel module is distributed as source code, and compiled at install time for the version and configuration of the kernel in use.
This requires occasional maintenance to update for new kernel interface changes, but generally is not too much work.That said, the kernel API churn sometimes seems unfortunate: in some cases, working interfaces are broken or replaced with broken ones for no seemingly good reason.
In some other cases, APIs that were previously available to us are rendered unusable.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815855</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29824795</id>
	<title>Linux + nVidia = great platform</title>
	<author>apexwm</author>
	<datestamp>1256146620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The Linux support of nVidia is awesome.  Even though the drivers are still proprietary, they are solid.  It's amazing how well the nVidia cards work in Linux, when you compare to ATI which can be a nightmare.  When you use an nVidia card in Linux system, it's set and forget usually.  Everything just works out of the box.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The Linux support of nVidia is awesome .
Even though the drivers are still proprietary , they are solid .
It 's amazing how well the nVidia cards work in Linux , when you compare to ATI which can be a nightmare .
When you use an nVidia card in Linux system , it 's set and forget usually .
Everything just works out of the box .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Linux support of nVidia is awesome.
Even though the drivers are still proprietary, they are solid.
It's amazing how well the nVidia cards work in Linux, when you compare to ATI which can be a nightmare.
When you use an nVidia card in Linux system, it's set and forget usually.
Everything just works out of the box.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816173</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>John Whitley</author>
	<datestamp>1256040360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>They don't want to open source it because they don't believe in open source.</p></div><p>Right.  That's unfortunate for the various open source platforms.  Perhaps I've not read the right sources, but I've seen little advice to help companies like NVidia come to grips with how open source policies help them.  That second point, "We have developed substantial IP in our graphics driver that we do not want to expose." is very telling, and one for which Free/Libre/Open/etc. proponents seem to have no coherent response: what to do when a company doesn't understand a path to a successful business model involving open source.  Hand-waving about principles isn't enough.  By evidence so far, whining that the drivers aren't open isn't enough either.  So where's that convincing argument?</p><p>Stallman, FSF, et. al. have raised awareness on the risks of proprietary software.  However, without a practical means to support the creation of said software <em>the risk of the proprietary becomes less than the risk of not having the software at all</em>.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>They do n't want to open source it because they do n't believe in open source.Right .
That 's unfortunate for the various open source platforms .
Perhaps I 've not read the right sources , but I 've seen little advice to help companies like NVidia come to grips with how open source policies help them .
That second point , " We have developed substantial IP in our graphics driver that we do not want to expose .
" is very telling , and one for which Free/Libre/Open/etc .
proponents seem to have no coherent response : what to do when a company does n't understand a path to a successful business model involving open source .
Hand-waving about principles is n't enough .
By evidence so far , whining that the drivers are n't open is n't enough either .
So where 's that convincing argument ? Stallman , FSF , et .
al. have raised awareness on the risks of proprietary software .
However , without a practical means to support the creation of said software the risk of the proprietary becomes less than the risk of not having the software at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They don't want to open source it because they don't believe in open source.Right.
That's unfortunate for the various open source platforms.
Perhaps I've not read the right sources, but I've seen little advice to help companies like NVidia come to grips with how open source policies help them.
That second point, "We have developed substantial IP in our graphics driver that we do not want to expose.
" is very telling, and one for which Free/Libre/Open/etc.
proponents seem to have no coherent response: what to do when a company doesn't understand a path to a successful business model involving open source.
Hand-waving about principles isn't enough.
By evidence so far, whining that the drivers aren't open isn't enough either.
So where's that convincing argument?Stallman, FSF, et.
al. have raised awareness on the risks of proprietary software.
However, without a practical means to support the creation of said software the risk of the proprietary becomes less than the risk of not having the software at all.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29820301</id>
	<title>Linux distros download the driver from nvidia?</title>
	<author>GNUPublicLicense</author>
	<datestamp>1256157120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>&lt;irony&gt;<br>
"0.5\% that of their..."? They are damn rigth. They should just publish the hardware programming manual to let this insignificant OS deal with their own things. Or stop the Linux driver developement and keep programming infos in order to allow the entire FOSS community to push hard for AMD and re-allocate all devs on AMD GPUs (and we will have a real Linux driver, not this kernel abstrated kludge which is the DRM).<br>
&lt;/irony&gt;<br>

BTW, I do not think that mainstream Linux distros download the nvidia driver from the web. If that is really the case, 0.5\% are mainly source based distro downloads since mainstream distros are binary based.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" 0.5 \ % that of their... " ?
They are damn rigth .
They should just publish the hardware programming manual to let this insignificant OS deal with their own things .
Or stop the Linux driver developement and keep programming infos in order to allow the entire FOSS community to push hard for AMD and re-allocate all devs on AMD GPUs ( and we will have a real Linux driver , not this kernel abstrated kludge which is the DRM ) .
BTW , I do not think that mainstream Linux distros download the nvidia driver from the web .
If that is really the case , 0.5 \ % are mainly source based distro downloads since mainstream distros are binary based .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
"0.5\% that of their..."?
They are damn rigth.
They should just publish the hardware programming manual to let this insignificant OS deal with their own things.
Or stop the Linux driver developement and keep programming infos in order to allow the entire FOSS community to push hard for AMD and re-allocate all devs on AMD GPUs (and we will have a real Linux driver, not this kernel abstrated kludge which is the DRM).
BTW, I do not think that mainstream Linux distros download the nvidia driver from the web.
If that is really the case, 0.5\% are mainly source based distro downloads since mainstream distros are binary based.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29817881</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256049420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>- We have developed substantial IP in our graphics driver that we do not want to expose.</p></div><p>Apparently led to </p><p><div class="quote"><p> They don't want to open source it because they don't believe in open source.</p></div><p>I'll translate that for you, Quantum G:</p><p>There's a bunch of code in their drivers that is doing stuff that REALLY should be done in hardware, on the chipset. They don't want to expose to people exactly how much of the actual work being done by the "video card" is in reality being shifted onto the CPU. For one thing, it makes them look bad. For another, people question exactly why they paid for an add-on GPU when it's just shifting most of its burden back to the CPU. And finally, someone could take the driver source and make pretty much any card function like the nvidea, including competitors and cheap knock-offs.</p><p>IF their hardware was really "all that", there would be NO reason to hide the driver source. Drivers only legitimate function is to interface the OS layer to the hardware layer, but a lot of GPU makers are piling a bunch of extra processing into the driver layer. Sometimes this is to make their "hardware" more "compatible" with things like directx: If the hardware isn't directly compatible, then instead of making it work properly, they fudge it in the driver layer. It's an old trick.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>- We have developed substantial IP in our graphics driver that we do not want to expose.Apparently led to They do n't want to open source it because they do n't believe in open source.I 'll translate that for you , Quantum G : There 's a bunch of code in their drivers that is doing stuff that REALLY should be done in hardware , on the chipset .
They do n't want to expose to people exactly how much of the actual work being done by the " video card " is in reality being shifted onto the CPU .
For one thing , it makes them look bad .
For another , people question exactly why they paid for an add-on GPU when it 's just shifting most of its burden back to the CPU .
And finally , someone could take the driver source and make pretty much any card function like the nvidea , including competitors and cheap knock-offs.IF their hardware was really " all that " , there would be NO reason to hide the driver source .
Drivers only legitimate function is to interface the OS layer to the hardware layer , but a lot of GPU makers are piling a bunch of extra processing into the driver layer .
Sometimes this is to make their " hardware " more " compatible " with things like directx : If the hardware is n't directly compatible , then instead of making it work properly , they fudge it in the driver layer .
It 's an old trick .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>- We have developed substantial IP in our graphics driver that we do not want to expose.Apparently led to  They don't want to open source it because they don't believe in open source.I'll translate that for you, Quantum G:There's a bunch of code in their drivers that is doing stuff that REALLY should be done in hardware, on the chipset.
They don't want to expose to people exactly how much of the actual work being done by the "video card" is in reality being shifted onto the CPU.
For one thing, it makes them look bad.
For another, people question exactly why they paid for an add-on GPU when it's just shifting most of its burden back to the CPU.
And finally, someone could take the driver source and make pretty much any card function like the nvidea, including competitors and cheap knock-offs.IF their hardware was really "all that", there would be NO reason to hide the driver source.
Drivers only legitimate function is to interface the OS layer to the hardware layer, but a lot of GPU makers are piling a bunch of extra processing into the driver layer.
Sometimes this is to make their "hardware" more "compatible" with things like directx: If the hardware isn't directly compatible, then instead of making it work properly, they fudge it in the driver layer.
It's an old trick.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29822183</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>RiotingPacifist</author>
	<datestamp>1256133480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A few links to follow:<br><a href="http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/radeon" title="freedesktop.org">Main page</a> [freedesktop.org]<br><a href="http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/RadeonFeature" title="freedesktop.org">Features</a> [freedesktop.org]<br><a href="http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/RadeonProgram" title="freedesktop.org">Programs</a> [freedesktop.org] (not performance just wine style if it works)<br><a href="http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/" title="botchco.com">A developers blog</a> [botchco.com]<br>I think the performance will always lag behind nvidia, however I'd guess that in about 9 months time the radeon drivers do most 3d rendering at a decent speed (It could be sooner, but i doubt it will be longer unless there is a major change)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A few links to follow : Main page [ freedesktop.org ] Features [ freedesktop.org ] Programs [ freedesktop.org ] ( not performance just wine style if it works ) A developers blog [ botchco.com ] I think the performance will always lag behind nvidia , however I 'd guess that in about 9 months time the radeon drivers do most 3d rendering at a decent speed ( It could be sooner , but i doubt it will be longer unless there is a major change )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A few links to follow:Main page [freedesktop.org]Features [freedesktop.org]Programs [freedesktop.org] (not performance just wine style if it works)A developers blog [botchco.com]I think the performance will always lag behind nvidia, however I'd guess that in about 9 months time the radeon drivers do most 3d rendering at a decent speed (It could be sooner, but i doubt it will be longer unless there is a major change)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816151</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29820955</id>
	<title>Re:Absolutely no discussion of FreeBSD drivers</title>
	<author>Narishma</author>
	<datestamp>1256122380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From TFA:<br><i>Thanks to the recent developments in the FreeBSD community to address our long standing list of issues on that platform [15], we should finally be able to provide an NVIDIA FreeBSD x86\_64 driver</i></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>From TFA : Thanks to the recent developments in the FreeBSD community to address our long standing list of issues on that platform [ 15 ] , we should finally be able to provide an NVIDIA FreeBSD x86 \ _64 driver</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From TFA:Thanks to the recent developments in the FreeBSD community to address our long standing list of issues on that platform [15], we should finally be able to provide an NVIDIA FreeBSD x86\_64 driver</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29819445</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29817821</id>
	<title>And don't forget the NVidia non-user base</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256048940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I use a Thinkpad T61 laptop computer running Ubuntu.  Now when I bought it, there were two configurations available: a nicer one (higher screen resolution) that I really wanted, that used NVidia graphics, and a less-nice one (lower resolution) that I could live with, that used Intel graphics.  But, there was a free (with source code) driver for the Intel version and not for the NVidia version.  So I bought the Intel version.  The lack of source code for the NVidia chip drove not just a download decision, but a purchase decision.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I use a Thinkpad T61 laptop computer running Ubuntu .
Now when I bought it , there were two configurations available : a nicer one ( higher screen resolution ) that I really wanted , that used NVidia graphics , and a less-nice one ( lower resolution ) that I could live with , that used Intel graphics .
But , there was a free ( with source code ) driver for the Intel version and not for the NVidia version .
So I bought the Intel version .
The lack of source code for the NVidia chip drove not just a download decision , but a purchase decision .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I use a Thinkpad T61 laptop computer running Ubuntu.
Now when I bought it, there were two configurations available: a nicer one (higher screen resolution) that I really wanted, that used NVidia graphics, and a less-nice one (lower resolution) that I could live with, that used Intel graphics.
But, there was a free (with source code) driver for the Intel version and not for the NVidia version.
So I bought the Intel version.
The lack of source code for the NVidia chip drove not just a download decision, but a purchase decision.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815677</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29822853</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256137080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>somebody did come up with a way to do faster database transactions than Oracle and DB2 and they're not <a href="http://db.cs.yale.edu/hstore/" title="yale.edu" rel="nofollow">not keeping it a secret</a> [yale.edu].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>somebody did come up with a way to do faster database transactions than Oracle and DB2 and they 're not not keeping it a secret [ yale.edu ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>somebody did come up with a way to do faster database transactions than Oracle and DB2 and they're not not keeping it a secret [yale.edu].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815895</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29819445</id>
	<title>Absolutely no discussion of FreeBSD drivers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256060100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm quite disappointed to see that Andy discussed absolutely *nothing* about the state of nVidia drivers on FreeBSD.</p><p>There has been a long-standing battle between FreeBSD kernel developers and nVidia regarding their drivers, dating back to at least 2006.  nVidia claims their driver has to go jump through hoops to deal with a shortcoming of the FreeBSD kernel, while kernel developers claimed nVidia's developers simply lacked the knowledge/understanding of the existing (stable) kernel API to use to gain what nVidia needs.</p><p>The discussion in question is here -- multiple links because it spans multiple months, and some mail clients don't seem to honour Reference-ID headers.</p><p><a href="http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-June/016995.html" title="freebsd.org" rel="nofollow">http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-June/016995.html</a> [freebsd.org]<br><a href="http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-July/017062.html" title="freebsd.org" rel="nofollow">http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-July/017062.html</a> [freebsd.org]<br><a href="http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-July/017077.html" title="freebsd.org" rel="nofollow">http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-July/017077.html</a> [freebsd.org]<br><a href="http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-July/017078.html" title="freebsd.org" rel="nofollow">http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-July/017078.html</a> [freebsd.org]</p><p>The thread gets heated (as most crap on freebsd-hackers does), but then dies off without a trace of resolution.  Literally nothing in the years to come.  There are some indications in July of discussions going private between members of FreeBSD Core (also kernel developers) and nVidia, which is shocking, given FreeBSD developers insisting on public release of GPU documentation.  Pot kettle black...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm quite disappointed to see that Andy discussed absolutely * nothing * about the state of nVidia drivers on FreeBSD.There has been a long-standing battle between FreeBSD kernel developers and nVidia regarding their drivers , dating back to at least 2006. nVidia claims their driver has to go jump through hoops to deal with a shortcoming of the FreeBSD kernel , while kernel developers claimed nVidia 's developers simply lacked the knowledge/understanding of the existing ( stable ) kernel API to use to gain what nVidia needs.The discussion in question is here -- multiple links because it spans multiple months , and some mail clients do n't seem to honour Reference-ID headers.http : //lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-June/016995.html [ freebsd.org ] http : //lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-July/017062.html [ freebsd.org ] http : //lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-July/017077.html [ freebsd.org ] http : //lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-July/017078.html [ freebsd.org ] The thread gets heated ( as most crap on freebsd-hackers does ) , but then dies off without a trace of resolution .
Literally nothing in the years to come .
There are some indications in July of discussions going private between members of FreeBSD Core ( also kernel developers ) and nVidia , which is shocking , given FreeBSD developers insisting on public release of GPU documentation .
Pot kettle black.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm quite disappointed to see that Andy discussed absolutely *nothing* about the state of nVidia drivers on FreeBSD.There has been a long-standing battle between FreeBSD kernel developers and nVidia regarding their drivers, dating back to at least 2006.  nVidia claims their driver has to go jump through hoops to deal with a shortcoming of the FreeBSD kernel, while kernel developers claimed nVidia's developers simply lacked the knowledge/understanding of the existing (stable) kernel API to use to gain what nVidia needs.The discussion in question is here -- multiple links because it spans multiple months, and some mail clients don't seem to honour Reference-ID headers.http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-June/016995.html [freebsd.org]http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-July/017062.html [freebsd.org]http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-July/017077.html [freebsd.org]http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2006-July/017078.html [freebsd.org]The thread gets heated (as most crap on freebsd-hackers does), but then dies off without a trace of resolution.
Literally nothing in the years to come.
There are some indications in July of discussions going private between members of FreeBSD Core (also kernel developers) and nVidia, which is shocking, given FreeBSD developers insisting on public release of GPU documentation.
Pot kettle black...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29818027</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>pnewhook</author>
	<datestamp>1256050440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>They don't want to open source it because they don't believe in open source. It's that simple. Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists.</p></div><p>Why does it matter to most people if they open source their driver or not?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>They do n't want to open source it because they do n't believe in open source .
It 's that simple .
Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists.Why does it matter to most people if they open source their driver or not ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They don't want to open source it because they don't believe in open source.
It's that simple.
Hopefully this will kill the last of the NVIDIA apologists.Why does it matter to most people if they open source their driver or not?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29825073</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Jthon</author>
	<datestamp>1256147760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I believe drivers actually have some optimizing compilers built in for the various intermediate shader languages which get run and spit out actual GPU bytecode. To make the driver useful they'd have to open source their compiler as well and maybe they have some great optimization techniques that AMD or Intel might rip off if they could. It's not like Intel's open source their C/C++ compiler on Linux. How is this any different?</p><p>At least NVIDIA's not hindering the Nouveau project.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I believe drivers actually have some optimizing compilers built in for the various intermediate shader languages which get run and spit out actual GPU bytecode .
To make the driver useful they 'd have to open source their compiler as well and maybe they have some great optimization techniques that AMD or Intel might rip off if they could .
It 's not like Intel 's open source their C/C + + compiler on Linux .
How is this any different ? At least NVIDIA 's not hindering the Nouveau project .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I believe drivers actually have some optimizing compilers built in for the various intermediate shader languages which get run and spit out actual GPU bytecode.
To make the driver useful they'd have to open source their compiler as well and maybe they have some great optimization techniques that AMD or Intel might rip off if they could.
It's not like Intel's open source their C/C++ compiler on Linux.
How is this any different?At least NVIDIA's not hindering the Nouveau project.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815895</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29819521</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>bill\_mcgonigle</author>
	<datestamp>1256060880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>we won't try to hinder their efforts, but we have no plans to help them.</i></p><p><i>Scumbags.</i></p><p>Probably just bad businessmen.</p><p>Let's say helping nouveau was 5FTE's at $100K each.  So, half a million dollars a year to conceivably be the default vendor for the entire linux market segment.  This seems like a no-brainer.</p><p>I don't really care which of the big three I buy from, I just want a hardware/software solution that works well, and with all of the problems with binary blobs I've had, I want an open driver.</p><p>P.S. if they want to know what percentage of linux users is using their hardware they can go look at the smolt statistics, not wonder about download logs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>we wo n't try to hinder their efforts , but we have no plans to help them.Scumbags.Probably just bad businessmen.Let 's say helping nouveau was 5FTE 's at $ 100K each .
So , half a million dollars a year to conceivably be the default vendor for the entire linux market segment .
This seems like a no-brainer.I do n't really care which of the big three I buy from , I just want a hardware/software solution that works well , and with all of the problems with binary blobs I 've had , I want an open driver.P.S .
if they want to know what percentage of linux users is using their hardware they can go look at the smolt statistics , not wonder about download logs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>we won't try to hinder their efforts, but we have no plans to help them.Scumbags.Probably just bad businessmen.Let's say helping nouveau was 5FTE's at $100K each.
So, half a million dollars a year to conceivably be the default vendor for the entire linux market segment.
This seems like a no-brainer.I don't really care which of the big three I buy from, I just want a hardware/software solution that works well, and with all of the problems with binary blobs I've had, I want an open driver.P.S.
if they want to know what percentage of linux users is using their hardware they can go look at the smolt statistics, not wonder about download logs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29817227</id>
	<title>BSD?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256045760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Where is the gratuitous BSD is dead comment?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Where is the gratuitous BSD is dead comment ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where is the gratuitous BSD is dead comment?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816091</id>
	<title>Re:Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256040000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I just checked the nvidia site for the first time for linux drivers.</p><p>Operating System: Windows Server 2003 64-bit, Windows XP 64-bit
File Size: 123 MB</p><p>Operating System: Linux 64-bit
File Size: 21.2 MB<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...What?</p></div><p>Clearly Linux is 6x more efficient than Windows.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I just checked the nvidia site for the first time for linux drivers.Operating System : Windows Server 2003 64-bit , Windows XP 64-bit File Size : 123 MBOperating System : Linux 64-bit File Size : 21.2 MB ...What ? Clearly Linux is 6x more efficient than Windows .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just checked the nvidia site for the first time for linux drivers.Operating System: Windows Server 2003 64-bit, Windows XP 64-bit
File Size: 123 MBOperating System: Linux 64-bit
File Size: 21.2 MB ...What?Clearly Linux is 6x more efficient than Windows.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815841</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29825371</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>WNight</author>
	<datestamp>1256149080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Stallman just wanted his printer to work.</p><p>I don't want to read driver source for fun. I want the source to exist so that people who need to integrate with it and fix it can.</p><p>As ms-vista showed, changing operating systems breaks hardware support. With open source you can get together and fix them if you need, with closed source you can't.</p><p>I really don't see how this is always painted as a weird stance when it's business-101 to buy products that can be repaired at 3rd-party facilities instead of by the manufacturer only, etc. Common sense.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Stallman just wanted his printer to work.I do n't want to read driver source for fun .
I want the source to exist so that people who need to integrate with it and fix it can.As ms-vista showed , changing operating systems breaks hardware support .
With open source you can get together and fix them if you need , with closed source you ca n't.I really do n't see how this is always painted as a weird stance when it 's business-101 to buy products that can be repaired at 3rd-party facilities instead of by the manufacturer only , etc .
Common sense .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stallman just wanted his printer to work.I don't want to read driver source for fun.
I want the source to exist so that people who need to integrate with it and fix it can.As ms-vista showed, changing operating systems breaks hardware support.
With open source you can get together and fix them if you need, with closed source you can't.I really don't see how this is always painted as a weird stance when it's business-101 to buy products that can be repaired at 3rd-party facilities instead of by the manufacturer only, etc.
Common sense.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816833</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815883</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>smellsofbikes</author>
	<datestamp>1256038740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>While at some point it may be possible to release some of this information in <b>pubic</b> form it would be quite a monumental effort to go through the vast amounts of internal documents and repurpose them for external consumption.</p></div><p>
I wonder how far back that particular typo goes, although I'm too lazy to find out.  Regardless, it's a funny mental image.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>While at some point it may be possible to release some of this information in pubic form it would be quite a monumental effort to go through the vast amounts of internal documents and repurpose them for external consumption .
I wonder how far back that particular typo goes , although I 'm too lazy to find out .
Regardless , it 's a funny mental image .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While at some point it may be possible to release some of this information in pubic form it would be quite a monumental effort to go through the vast amounts of internal documents and repurpose them for external consumption.
I wonder how far back that particular typo goes, although I'm too lazy to find out.
Regardless, it's a funny mental image.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29822207</id>
	<title>Re:Hopefully this will put an end to some trolling</title>
	<author>GrumpyOldMan</author>
	<datestamp>1256133600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I maintain a 10GbE network driver for an IHV.   We have one guy (me) doing our 10GbE drivers for all non-Windows OSes.  Our driver is GPL has been in the Linux kernel (minus a many helpful features) for quite a while, and is also in other open source OSs (FreeBSD, OpenSolaris).    However, we also have to offer a driver directly from our site with all the latest features and bugfixes, since distros are so slow to pick up changes.  In this driver, I abstract Linux kernel API changes away, so that the same driver compiles on 2.4.0, 2.6.32rc and all versions in between.  The Linux kernel API churn is responsible for over 20\% of the size of this generic Linux driver, and is a frequent source of problems when vendors like Red Hat backport new features (like GRO) from the mainline kernel in incompatible ways.  OSes with stable kernel APIs are so much easier to deal with that it isn't even funny.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I maintain a 10GbE network driver for an IHV .
We have one guy ( me ) doing our 10GbE drivers for all non-Windows OSes .
Our driver is GPL has been in the Linux kernel ( minus a many helpful features ) for quite a while , and is also in other open source OSs ( FreeBSD , OpenSolaris ) .
However , we also have to offer a driver directly from our site with all the latest features and bugfixes , since distros are so slow to pick up changes .
In this driver , I abstract Linux kernel API changes away , so that the same driver compiles on 2.4.0 , 2.6.32rc and all versions in between .
The Linux kernel API churn is responsible for over 20 \ % of the size of this generic Linux driver , and is a frequent source of problems when vendors like Red Hat backport new features ( like GRO ) from the mainline kernel in incompatible ways .
OSes with stable kernel APIs are so much easier to deal with that it is n't even funny .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I maintain a 10GbE network driver for an IHV.
We have one guy (me) doing our 10GbE drivers for all non-Windows OSes.
Our driver is GPL has been in the Linux kernel (minus a many helpful features) for quite a while, and is also in other open source OSs (FreeBSD, OpenSolaris).
However, we also have to offer a driver directly from our site with all the latest features and bugfixes, since distros are so slow to pick up changes.
In this driver, I abstract Linux kernel API changes away, so that the same driver compiles on 2.4.0, 2.6.32rc and all versions in between.
The Linux kernel API churn is responsible for over 20\% of the size of this generic Linux driver, and is a frequent source of problems when vendors like Red Hat backport new features (like GRO) from the mainline kernel in incompatible ways.
OSes with stable kernel APIs are so much easier to deal with that it isn't even funny.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815855</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29819419</id>
	<title>Re:Lies, damn lies, and download rates</title>
	<author>dbIII</author>
	<datestamp>1256059980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The "nv" driver in Xorg isn't bad for a single desktop screen.  Of course you get plenty of other goodies in the nvidia driver.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The " nv " driver in Xorg is n't bad for a single desktop screen .
Of course you get plenty of other goodies in the nvidia driver .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The "nv" driver in Xorg isn't bad for a single desktop screen.
Of course you get plenty of other goodies in the nvidia driver.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29818283</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816653</id>
	<title>Re:Hopefully this will put an end to some trolling</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256043180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Yet they replace a major portion of it. Something just doesn't fit here.</p></div></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yet they replace a major portion of it .
Something just does n't fit here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yet they replace a major portion of it.
Something just doesn't fit here.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815855</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29821701</id>
	<title>Interesting..... and look no X bashing!</title>
	<author>jabjoe</author>
	<datestamp>1256130120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>With all that shared code, sounds like I should completely give up on the idea it will ever be openned, or fit in properly.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-(
<br> <br>
I'm keen on the idea of Gallium3D, KMS and moving drivers out of X, stripping X down to something managable. NVidia aren't going to help at all.
<br> <br>
Linux users, both X bashers and X fans both loose out with NVidia. If your a X fan, you won't get the X developments, if your a X basher, you won't be able to have a X replacement. Both require things to be stripped from X and abstracted.
<br> <br>
No, I'm buying a ATI next time. Maybe it's not as fast or stable, but it's at least beginning to move with X development. In the long run, it's a better choice.</htmltext>
<tokenext>With all that shared code , sounds like I should completely give up on the idea it will ever be openned , or fit in properly .
: - ( I 'm keen on the idea of Gallium3D , KMS and moving drivers out of X , stripping X down to something managable .
NVidia are n't going to help at all .
Linux users , both X bashers and X fans both loose out with NVidia .
If your a X fan , you wo n't get the X developments , if your a X basher , you wo n't be able to have a X replacement .
Both require things to be stripped from X and abstracted .
No , I 'm buying a ATI next time .
Maybe it 's not as fast or stable , but it 's at least beginning to move with X development .
In the long run , it 's a better choice .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With all that shared code, sounds like I should completely give up on the idea it will ever be openned, or fit in properly.
:-(
 
I'm keen on the idea of Gallium3D, KMS and moving drivers out of X, stripping X down to something managable.
NVidia aren't going to help at all.
Linux users, both X bashers and X fans both loose out with NVidia.
If your a X fan, you won't get the X developments, if your a X basher, you won't be able to have a X replacement.
Both require things to be stripped from X and abstracted.
No, I'm buying a ATI next time.
Maybe it's not as fast or stable, but it's at least beginning to move with X development.
In the long run, it's a better choice.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816335</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter MOD UP!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256041440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Modder it way up!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Modder it way up !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Modder it way up!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816135</id>
	<title>Re:Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256040180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They include versions of the driver for every version of Windows that they support, as well as many different cards within a single driver.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They include versions of the driver for every version of Windows that they support , as well as many different cards within a single driver .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They include versions of the driver for every version of Windows that they support, as well as many different cards within a single driver.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815841</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29820265</id>
	<title>2 nvidia cards and 3d accelleration</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256156760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>SInce they say Linux is a strategic market for them, could they find a way to let two nvidia cards and 4 monitors work in xinerama with 3d and hdtv acceleration working? in Windows it has been working forever .<br>If  it is possible and somebody feels like landing a helping hand I would appreciate</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>SInce they say Linux is a strategic market for them , could they find a way to let two nvidia cards and 4 monitors work in xinerama with 3d and hdtv acceleration working ?
in Windows it has been working forever .If it is possible and somebody feels like landing a helping hand I would appreciate</tokentext>
<sentencetext>SInce they say Linux is a strategic market for them, could they find a way to let two nvidia cards and 4 monitors work in xinerama with 3d and hdtv acceleration working?
in Windows it has been working forever .If  it is possible and somebody feels like landing a helping hand I would appreciate</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816303</id>
	<title>Re:Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>RiotingPacifist</author>
	<datestamp>1256041260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Couldn't they approach the 3 or 4 largest linux distros/repositories and ask?</p></div><p> <b>Nvidia:</b> Hi, I'm from nvidia<br>*click*</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Could n't they approach the 3 or 4 largest linux distros/repositories and ask ?
Nvidia : Hi , I 'm from nvidia * click *</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Couldn't they approach the 3 or 4 largest linux distros/repositories and ask?
Nvidia: Hi, I'm from nvidia*click*
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815695</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29819805</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256063760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That's capitalism. (Speculation: some of their binary code dynamically optimizes an FPGA on board for better performance.)</p></div><p>Capitalism would also be other parties reverse engineering the binary. Of course, 'capitalists' like this routinely deny the 'capitalistic' process by getting laws passed that outlaw this.  So much for competition, a core component of capitalism.</p><p>If it's in an FPGA then move the secretbits to the damn chip, or its bios firmware. keep it out of the drivers.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's capitalism .
( Speculation : some of their binary code dynamically optimizes an FPGA on board for better performance .
) Capitalism would also be other parties reverse engineering the binary .
Of course , 'capitalists ' like this routinely deny the 'capitalistic ' process by getting laws passed that outlaw this .
So much for competition , a core component of capitalism.If it 's in an FPGA then move the secretbits to the damn chip , or its bios firmware .
keep it out of the drivers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's capitalism.
(Speculation: some of their binary code dynamically optimizes an FPGA on board for better performance.
)Capitalism would also be other parties reverse engineering the binary.
Of course, 'capitalists' like this routinely deny the 'capitalistic' process by getting laws passed that outlaw this.
So much for competition, a core component of capitalism.If it's in an FPGA then move the secretbits to the damn chip, or its bios firmware.
keep it out of the drivers.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815895</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29819763</id>
	<title>I download Windows graphics drivers all the time</title>
	<author>OrangeTide</author>
	<datestamp>1256063160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think 100\% of the time when I'm installing Windows from scratch I grab the drivers for the ethernet, sata, audio and graphics. Because usually those don't work out of the box when the hardware is a lot newer than the copy of Windows.</p><p>Linux distros don't make it easy to add an extra driver disk, so I tend to have to get a distro that is recent enough to support the new hardware. And those will already have the drivers I need, including the graphics driver.</p><p>For user's downloading drivers, maybe the Linux number isn't too small, but the Windows number is too big?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think 100 \ % of the time when I 'm installing Windows from scratch I grab the drivers for the ethernet , sata , audio and graphics .
Because usually those do n't work out of the box when the hardware is a lot newer than the copy of Windows.Linux distros do n't make it easy to add an extra driver disk , so I tend to have to get a distro that is recent enough to support the new hardware .
And those will already have the drivers I need , including the graphics driver.For user 's downloading drivers , maybe the Linux number is n't too small , but the Windows number is too big ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think 100\% of the time when I'm installing Windows from scratch I grab the drivers for the ethernet, sata, audio and graphics.
Because usually those don't work out of the box when the hardware is a lot newer than the copy of Windows.Linux distros don't make it easy to add an extra driver disk, so I tend to have to get a distro that is recent enough to support the new hardware.
And those will already have the drivers I need, including the graphics driver.For user's downloading drivers, maybe the Linux number isn't too small, but the Windows number is too big?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816105</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256040000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As someone who's worked for NVIDIA driver development, I can tell you that NVIDIA has no "beliefs" regarding open source at all, and most of the developers have no problem with it. I've had plenty of chats with folks there who were trying out Ubuntu, etc. A guy down the hall had a poster on his door of the linux kernel 0.1 source (I think from a Red Hat conference of some kind). The real reason they don't want to open-source the driver is because the driver is<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/massive/, and setting up the documentation and outlets for it would take time and effort away from their primary goal, which is staying on top of the market and satisfying as many customers as they can while doing so. And trust me, I don't care how good a dev team you've put together, if they simply dumped the driver code out on the net I guarantee no one would be able to reverse engineer the damn thing.</p><p>So yeah. If you can make a good case why it's in their interests to open source it, I bet they'd consider it more seriously. Don't make the mistake of anthropomorphizing a large company.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone who 's worked for NVIDIA driver development , I can tell you that NVIDIA has no " beliefs " regarding open source at all , and most of the developers have no problem with it .
I 've had plenty of chats with folks there who were trying out Ubuntu , etc .
A guy down the hall had a poster on his door of the linux kernel 0.1 source ( I think from a Red Hat conference of some kind ) .
The real reason they do n't want to open-source the driver is because the driver is /massive/ , and setting up the documentation and outlets for it would take time and effort away from their primary goal , which is staying on top of the market and satisfying as many customers as they can while doing so .
And trust me , I do n't care how good a dev team you 've put together , if they simply dumped the driver code out on the net I guarantee no one would be able to reverse engineer the damn thing.So yeah .
If you can make a good case why it 's in their interests to open source it , I bet they 'd consider it more seriously .
Do n't make the mistake of anthropomorphizing a large company .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone who's worked for NVIDIA driver development, I can tell you that NVIDIA has no "beliefs" regarding open source at all, and most of the developers have no problem with it.
I've had plenty of chats with folks there who were trying out Ubuntu, etc.
A guy down the hall had a poster on his door of the linux kernel 0.1 source (I think from a Red Hat conference of some kind).
The real reason they don't want to open-source the driver is because the driver is /massive/, and setting up the documentation and outlets for it would take time and effort away from their primary goal, which is staying on top of the market and satisfying as many customers as they can while doing so.
And trust me, I don't care how good a dev team you've put together, if they simply dumped the driver code out on the net I guarantee no one would be able to reverse engineer the damn thing.So yeah.
If you can make a good case why it's in their interests to open source it, I bet they'd consider it more seriously.
Don't make the mistake of anthropomorphizing a large company.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29822691</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>dpilot</author>
	<datestamp>1256136360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No Stallmanism in this reply.</p><p>Among other things, I manage CAD for my design group.  We use Linux workstations with nVidia graphics cards, and one our of primary tools is the predominate vendor VLSI CAD package.</p><p>These systems tend to be a bit crashy, a bit brittle.  I've seen the vendor CAD package do odd things before, and I routinely see odd things pass by in the tool logfiles.  It leaves me with the distinct impression that the software is far from clean.  The things I've gone through getting this CAD package to run on a non-corporate-standard Linux distribution further that impression.</p><p>So while there may be other things making the machines brittle, having a CAD package talking to a closed-source binary blob for X certainly gives that package a route right into the kernel.  I can't say that this is THE problem, but it is certainly A possiblity.</p><p>Above and beyond that, nVidia taints my kernel, so other than gathering statistics, my kerneloops dumps don't do squat.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No Stallmanism in this reply.Among other things , I manage CAD for my design group .
We use Linux workstations with nVidia graphics cards , and one our of primary tools is the predominate vendor VLSI CAD package.These systems tend to be a bit crashy , a bit brittle .
I 've seen the vendor CAD package do odd things before , and I routinely see odd things pass by in the tool logfiles .
It leaves me with the distinct impression that the software is far from clean .
The things I 've gone through getting this CAD package to run on a non-corporate-standard Linux distribution further that impression.So while there may be other things making the machines brittle , having a CAD package talking to a closed-source binary blob for X certainly gives that package a route right into the kernel .
I ca n't say that this is THE problem , but it is certainly A possiblity.Above and beyond that , nVidia taints my kernel , so other than gathering statistics , my kerneloops dumps do n't do squat .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No Stallmanism in this reply.Among other things, I manage CAD for my design group.
We use Linux workstations with nVidia graphics cards, and one our of primary tools is the predominate vendor VLSI CAD package.These systems tend to be a bit crashy, a bit brittle.
I've seen the vendor CAD package do odd things before, and I routinely see odd things pass by in the tool logfiles.
It leaves me with the distinct impression that the software is far from clean.
The things I've gone through getting this CAD package to run on a non-corporate-standard Linux distribution further that impression.So while there may be other things making the machines brittle, having a CAD package talking to a closed-source binary blob for X certainly gives that package a route right into the kernel.
I can't say that this is THE problem, but it is certainly A possiblity.Above and beyond that, nVidia taints my kernel, so other than gathering statistics, my kerneloops dumps don't do squat.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815895</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29817211</id>
	<title>Re:Hopefully this will put an end to some trolling</title>
	<author>Keyper7</author>
	<datestamp>1256045700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I constantly lurk at the nvnews forums and download the official nvidia installers. From previous experiences I can say the following:</p><p>1) The installer not working with a new kernel version is a rare event. When it does happen, it's usually an indication that the kernel had major changes. It's not like changing two lines related to the audio stack will break the nvidia installers</p><p>2) nVidia is usually very explicit and clear about which kernel versions the driver will work with.</p><p>3) They are also usually very fast in releasing a new version. Usually only people who like to use the gushing-rivers-of-blood-edge kernel are affected.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I constantly lurk at the nvnews forums and download the official nvidia installers .
From previous experiences I can say the following : 1 ) The installer not working with a new kernel version is a rare event .
When it does happen , it 's usually an indication that the kernel had major changes .
It 's not like changing two lines related to the audio stack will break the nvidia installers2 ) nVidia is usually very explicit and clear about which kernel versions the driver will work with.3 ) They are also usually very fast in releasing a new version .
Usually only people who like to use the gushing-rivers-of-blood-edge kernel are affected .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I constantly lurk at the nvnews forums and download the official nvidia installers.
From previous experiences I can say the following:1) The installer not working with a new kernel version is a rare event.
When it does happen, it's usually an indication that the kernel had major changes.
It's not like changing two lines related to the audio stack will break the nvidia installers2) nVidia is usually very explicit and clear about which kernel versions the driver will work with.3) They are also usually very fast in releasing a new version.
Usually only people who like to use the gushing-rivers-of-blood-edge kernel are affected.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816501</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29820029</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>coolsnowmen</author>
	<datestamp>1256066760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is no difference between hardware and software,  Anything you can do in software, can be done in hardware.  This goes doubly for the use of FPGA's in the graphics community,  So to answer your question, what could be done in 'software' (by that I assume you mean the nvidia driver) that isn't there in hardware, in short: everything.  The firmware for anything using an FPGA or similiar can be the different between something that doesn't work at all, and something that can cure cancer (metaphorically).</p><p>As a side note, your inability to use your desktop environment to run nvidia-settings with the correct privileges is not an oversight by nvidia (it is either a lack of functionality in your environment, or a lack of understanding on how  to utilize that functionality).  The program has the ability to update your config.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is no difference between hardware and software , Anything you can do in software , can be done in hardware .
This goes doubly for the use of FPGA 's in the graphics community , So to answer your question , what could be done in 'software ' ( by that I assume you mean the nvidia driver ) that is n't there in hardware , in short : everything .
The firmware for anything using an FPGA or similiar can be the different between something that does n't work at all , and something that can cure cancer ( metaphorically ) .As a side note , your inability to use your desktop environment to run nvidia-settings with the correct privileges is not an oversight by nvidia ( it is either a lack of functionality in your environment , or a lack of understanding on how to utilize that functionality ) .
The program has the ability to update your config .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is no difference between hardware and software,  Anything you can do in software, can be done in hardware.
This goes doubly for the use of FPGA's in the graphics community,  So to answer your question, what could be done in 'software' (by that I assume you mean the nvidia driver) that isn't there in hardware, in short: everything.
The firmware for anything using an FPGA or similiar can be the different between something that doesn't work at all, and something that can cure cancer (metaphorically).As a side note, your inability to use your desktop environment to run nvidia-settings with the correct privileges is not an oversight by nvidia (it is either a lack of functionality in your environment, or a lack of understanding on how  to utilize that functionality).
The program has the ability to update your config.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816915</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29818755</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256055000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>what to do when a company doesn't understand a path to a successful business model involving open source</p></div><p>Has it occurred to you that maybe they <i>do</i> understand, have weighed the pros and cons, and have decided that a proprietary strategy is still better?  Open source is not always a better business model.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>what to do when a company does n't understand a path to a successful business model involving open sourceHas it occurred to you that maybe they do understand , have weighed the pros and cons , and have decided that a proprietary strategy is still better ?
Open source is not always a better business model .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>what to do when a company doesn't understand a path to a successful business model involving open sourceHas it occurred to you that maybe they do understand, have weighed the pros and cons, and have decided that a proprietary strategy is still better?
Open source is not always a better business model.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816173</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815609</id>
	<title>Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256037540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I download my Nvidia drivers from the Archlinux package repository. How many Linux users manually download them from Nvidia? The 0.5 percentage could be a big understatement...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I download my Nvidia drivers from the Archlinux package repository .
How many Linux users manually download them from Nvidia ?
The 0.5 percentage could be a big understatement.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I download my Nvidia drivers from the Archlinux package repository.
How many Linux users manually download them from Nvidia?
The 0.5 percentage could be a big understatement...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29817401</id>
	<title>Re:Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>Interoperable</author>
	<datestamp>1256046540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Another factor to consider is how often Windows users download drivers repeatedly. It may not be a large percentage of the market, but gamers will download drivers every time a new one is released (and I don't mean the people playing Frozen-Bubble).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Another factor to consider is how often Windows users download drivers repeatedly .
It may not be a large percentage of the market , but gamers will download drivers every time a new one is released ( and I do n't mean the people playing Frozen-Bubble ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Another factor to consider is how often Windows users download drivers repeatedly.
It may not be a large percentage of the market, but gamers will download drivers every time a new one is released (and I don't mean the people playing Frozen-Bubble).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815677</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29819673</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>MostAwesomeDude</author>
	<datestamp>1256062200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We're way ahead of fglrx and nvidia in terms of 2D performance. You can talk up the blobs all you want, but we're definitely making good progress and we have some features the blobs just don't have. There's a good reason that AMD's deprecated their blob for older chipsets now.</p><p>Also, there are three AMD people, two Red Hat people, two from TG/VMare, and about five independent coders (including myself) working on Radeon-related code. Hardly an AMD-led project. Go ahead, check the copyright on mesa/src/gallium/drivers/r300. I dare you. While you're at it, check the copyright on the classic driver in mesa/src/mesa/drivers/dri/r300 and note how nearly all of it was written by non-AMD people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We 're way ahead of fglrx and nvidia in terms of 2D performance .
You can talk up the blobs all you want , but we 're definitely making good progress and we have some features the blobs just do n't have .
There 's a good reason that AMD 's deprecated their blob for older chipsets now.Also , there are three AMD people , two Red Hat people , two from TG/VMare , and about five independent coders ( including myself ) working on Radeon-related code .
Hardly an AMD-led project .
Go ahead , check the copyright on mesa/src/gallium/drivers/r300 .
I dare you .
While you 're at it , check the copyright on the classic driver in mesa/src/mesa/drivers/dri/r300 and note how nearly all of it was written by non-AMD people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We're way ahead of fglrx and nvidia in terms of 2D performance.
You can talk up the blobs all you want, but we're definitely making good progress and we have some features the blobs just don't have.
There's a good reason that AMD's deprecated their blob for older chipsets now.Also, there are three AMD people, two Red Hat people, two from TG/VMare, and about five independent coders (including myself) working on Radeon-related code.
Hardly an AMD-led project.
Go ahead, check the copyright on mesa/src/gallium/drivers/r300.
I dare you.
While you're at it, check the copyright on the classic driver in mesa/src/mesa/drivers/dri/r300 and note how nearly all of it was written by non-AMD people.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816255</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816833</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>petrus4</author>
	<datestamp>1256043960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'm really mystified by this attitude - if a company produces a stable, reliable product with closed software and the market is willing to pay for it, what difference does it make?</p></div><p>The reason why you can't understand this attitude, is because you're not a Stallmanite freetard.</p><p>You're essentially correct; from any sane, neurotypical point of view, there's absolutely nothing wrong with nVidia's hardware or its' drivers being proprietary whatsoever.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm really mystified by this attitude - if a company produces a stable , reliable product with closed software and the market is willing to pay for it , what difference does it make ? The reason why you ca n't understand this attitude , is because you 're not a Stallmanite freetard.You 're essentially correct ; from any sane , neurotypical point of view , there 's absolutely nothing wrong with nVidia 's hardware or its ' drivers being proprietary whatsoever .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm really mystified by this attitude - if a company produces a stable, reliable product with closed software and the market is willing to pay for it, what difference does it make?The reason why you can't understand this attitude, is because you're not a Stallmanite freetard.You're essentially correct; from any sane, neurotypical point of view, there's absolutely nothing wrong with nVidia's hardware or its' drivers being proprietary whatsoever.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815895</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29818781</id>
	<title>Re:Hopefully this will put an end to some trolling</title>
	<author>Ralish</author>
	<datestamp>1256055120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Apparently I'm a troll, because my opinion differs from yours, but oh well:</p><p>a) The actual article doesn't in any way make it out to be "very little trouble" (the exact phrase used was "not a large obstacle"), and considering it's the very first grievance he points out, I think it should be obvious that it causes a non-trivial amount of trouble. I'm not arguing in favour of a stable kernel API mind you; I'm personally not strongly for or against, I've read insightful and convincing arguments from both sides of the debate. But pointing out that one of the biggest closed-source Linux drivers with a large team of dedicated/experienced driver developers who are paid for their work (and presumably quite well) and are are employed by a large company with significant resources don't find the unstable API to be a large obstacle doesn't exactly in my view prove anything, except that with sufficient resources the problem is manageable.</p><p>b) He says the architectural decisions are "quite sound", but at the same time says it's the area of Linux with the "largest opportunities". I'm going to play the Devil's advocate and suggest that he's probably somewhat biased with this kind of assessment, as if he loathed X, I doubt he'd be developing graphics drivers for it. Don't take this as invalidating his comments, I think they are correct, but I'd be more than surprised if he came out and called X a gigantic turd. He \_does\_ point out that it is highly flexible and extensible, which is to say, you can easily change its functionality and implementation, and others have pointed out, the Nvidia binary-drivers replace a fairly large chunk of the X code in order to work, which doesn't exactly lend to your assertion that X is entirely rosy.</p><p>I'll be honest and say I'm no fan of X, it's fairly close to my arch-nemesis on Linux, I just always to have bizarre/infuriating problems with it but that might just be that I'm unlucky/incompetent with it. But, I don't think it's wholly bad; it's been capable of various things for decades that Windows has only achieved in the last couple of years (and other it still can't). I'm just opposed to blanket labelling of opposing viewpoints as trolls.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Apparently I 'm a troll , because my opinion differs from yours , but oh well : a ) The actual article does n't in any way make it out to be " very little trouble " ( the exact phrase used was " not a large obstacle " ) , and considering it 's the very first grievance he points out , I think it should be obvious that it causes a non-trivial amount of trouble .
I 'm not arguing in favour of a stable kernel API mind you ; I 'm personally not strongly for or against , I 've read insightful and convincing arguments from both sides of the debate .
But pointing out that one of the biggest closed-source Linux drivers with a large team of dedicated/experienced driver developers who are paid for their work ( and presumably quite well ) and are are employed by a large company with significant resources do n't find the unstable API to be a large obstacle does n't exactly in my view prove anything , except that with sufficient resources the problem is manageable.b ) He says the architectural decisions are " quite sound " , but at the same time says it 's the area of Linux with the " largest opportunities " .
I 'm going to play the Devil 's advocate and suggest that he 's probably somewhat biased with this kind of assessment , as if he loathed X , I doubt he 'd be developing graphics drivers for it .
Do n't take this as invalidating his comments , I think they are correct , but I 'd be more than surprised if he came out and called X a gigantic turd .
He \ _does \ _ point out that it is highly flexible and extensible , which is to say , you can easily change its functionality and implementation , and others have pointed out , the Nvidia binary-drivers replace a fairly large chunk of the X code in order to work , which does n't exactly lend to your assertion that X is entirely rosy.I 'll be honest and say I 'm no fan of X , it 's fairly close to my arch-nemesis on Linux , I just always to have bizarre/infuriating problems with it but that might just be that I 'm unlucky/incompetent with it .
But , I do n't think it 's wholly bad ; it 's been capable of various things for decades that Windows has only achieved in the last couple of years ( and other it still ca n't ) .
I 'm just opposed to blanket labelling of opposing viewpoints as trolls .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Apparently I'm a troll, because my opinion differs from yours, but oh well:a) The actual article doesn't in any way make it out to be "very little trouble" (the exact phrase used was "not a large obstacle"), and considering it's the very first grievance he points out, I think it should be obvious that it causes a non-trivial amount of trouble.
I'm not arguing in favour of a stable kernel API mind you; I'm personally not strongly for or against, I've read insightful and convincing arguments from both sides of the debate.
But pointing out that one of the biggest closed-source Linux drivers with a large team of dedicated/experienced driver developers who are paid for their work (and presumably quite well) and are are employed by a large company with significant resources don't find the unstable API to be a large obstacle doesn't exactly in my view prove anything, except that with sufficient resources the problem is manageable.b) He says the architectural decisions are "quite sound", but at the same time says it's the area of Linux with the "largest opportunities".
I'm going to play the Devil's advocate and suggest that he's probably somewhat biased with this kind of assessment, as if he loathed X, I doubt he'd be developing graphics drivers for it.
Don't take this as invalidating his comments, I think they are correct, but I'd be more than surprised if he came out and called X a gigantic turd.
He \_does\_ point out that it is highly flexible and extensible, which is to say, you can easily change its functionality and implementation, and others have pointed out, the Nvidia binary-drivers replace a fairly large chunk of the X code in order to work, which doesn't exactly lend to your assertion that X is entirely rosy.I'll be honest and say I'm no fan of X, it's fairly close to my arch-nemesis on Linux, I just always to have bizarre/infuriating problems with it but that might just be that I'm unlucky/incompetent with it.
But, I don't think it's wholly bad; it's been capable of various things for decades that Windows has only achieved in the last couple of years (and other it still can't).
I'm just opposed to blanket labelling of opposing viewpoints as trolls.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815855</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815993</id>
	<title>Re:Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>Verunks</author>
	<datestamp>1256039280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>the windows drivers includes other things like physx, 3dvision and the hdaudio driver</htmltext>
<tokenext>the windows drivers includes other things like physx , 3dvision and the hdaudio driver</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the windows drivers includes other things like physx, 3dvision and the hdaudio driver</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815841</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815783</id>
	<title>I don't wanna see their "pubic" documentation...</title>
	<author>yet-another-lobbyist</author>
	<datestamp>1256038320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>From the bottom of P.3:<p><nobr> <wbr></nobr></p><div class="quote"><p>... While at some point it may be possible to release some of this information in pubic form it would be quite a monumental effort [...]</p></div></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>From the bottom of P.3 : ... While at some point it may be possible to release some of this information in pubic form it would be quite a monumental effort [ ... ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From the bottom of P.3: ... While at some point it may be possible to release some of this information in pubic form it would be quite a monumental effort [...]
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815661</id>
	<title>Re:Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>Wonko the Sane</author>
	<datestamp>1256037780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He admits that in the article.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He admits that in the article .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He admits that in the article.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815609</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29818861</id>
	<title>Re:Holy War</title>
	<author>GaryOlson</author>
	<datestamp>1256055600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Not heretics -- bipolar developers. That's the only way 90\% of the driver code can be used on both Windows and *nix.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not heretics -- bipolar developers .
That 's the only way 90 \ % of the driver code can be used on both Windows and * nix .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not heretics -- bipolar developers.
That's the only way 90\% of the driver code can be used on both Windows and *nix.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29830449</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256130240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Psst, nvidia-settings is open source.  So is the installer.  You would think, being open source, someone would have fixed this stuff right?  Apparently not.  You would think AMD's driver, being open source, would not be crap, but it is.  Maybe making something open source doesn't magically give it powers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Psst , nvidia-settings is open source .
So is the installer .
You would think , being open source , someone would have fixed this stuff right ?
Apparently not .
You would think AMD 's driver , being open source , would not be crap , but it is .
Maybe making something open source does n't magically give it powers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Psst, nvidia-settings is open source.
So is the installer.
You would think, being open source, someone would have fixed this stuff right?
Apparently not.
You would think AMD's driver, being open source, would not be crap, but it is.
Maybe making something open source doesn't magically give it powers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816915</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815855</id>
	<title>Hopefully this will put an end to some trolling.</title>
	<author>serviscope\_minor</author>
	<datestamp>1256038620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd like the authors of some common troll s to note:</p><p>a) The most high profile binary kernel module distributor considers the unstable kernel API to be very little trouble.</p><p>b) One of the most high profile X driver cerators thinks that X is well designed.</p><p>so there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd like the authors of some common troll s to note : a ) The most high profile binary kernel module distributor considers the unstable kernel API to be very little trouble.b ) One of the most high profile X driver cerators thinks that X is well designed.so there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd like the authors of some common troll s to note:a) The most high profile binary kernel module distributor considers the unstable kernel API to be very little trouble.b) One of the most high profile X driver cerators thinks that X is well designed.so there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29819751</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Sloppy</author>
	<datestamp>1256063100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The problem is you basically have to choose between NVidia and ATI.</p></div></blockquote><p>It's worse than that, if what you want is video decoding, rather than 3D.  Neither Intel's nor ATI's drivers can do it yet.  If you're building a MythTV system, then you're either going to decode with CPU, or use Nvidia graphics.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is you basically have to choose between NVidia and ATI.It 's worse than that , if what you want is video decoding , rather than 3D .
Neither Intel 's nor ATI 's drivers can do it yet .
If you 're building a MythTV system , then you 're either going to decode with CPU , or use Nvidia graphics .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is you basically have to choose between NVidia and ATI.It's worse than that, if what you want is video decoding, rather than 3D.
Neither Intel's nor ATI's drivers can do it yet.
If you're building a MythTV system, then you're either going to decode with CPU, or use Nvidia graphics.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815917</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815695</id>
	<title>Re:Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256037960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Couldn't they approach the 3 or 4 largest linux distros/repositories and ask?  I, also, got my NVIDIA driver from a repository, not the NVIDIA web site.</p><p>- Oakbox</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Could n't they approach the 3 or 4 largest linux distros/repositories and ask ?
I , also , got my NVIDIA driver from a repository , not the NVIDIA web site.- Oakbox</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Couldn't they approach the 3 or 4 largest linux distros/repositories and ask?
I, also, got my NVIDIA driver from a repository, not the NVIDIA web site.- Oakbox</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815609</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29821437</id>
	<title>Re:Lies, damn lies, and download rates</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256127660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>NVidia needs to replace a lot of slow, bugged or simply broken code on X11 to be possible to make then work corretly. If works, who cares? I need a working system and not a broken but "FOOS compliant".</htmltext>
<tokenext>NVidia needs to replace a lot of slow , bugged or simply broken code on X11 to be possible to make then work corretly .
If works , who cares ?
I need a working system and not a broken but " FOOS compliant " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>NVidia needs to replace a lot of slow, bugged or simply broken code on X11 to be possible to make then work corretly.
If works, who cares?
I need a working system and not a broken but "FOOS compliant".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815935</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816477</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>jim\_v2000</author>
	<datestamp>1256042280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I suppose when someone figures out how to buy an OpenManufacturingPlant then it will happen.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I suppose when someone figures out how to buy an OpenManufacturingPlant then it will happen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I suppose when someone figures out how to buy an OpenManufacturingPlant then it will happen.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815917</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29819519</id>
	<title>gksudo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256060880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Go into your gnome menu editor and change the shortcut for it to be preceded by gksudo.  It'll pop up a dialog for you to enter your password into when you run like the other items in the system menu.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Go into your gnome menu editor and change the shortcut for it to be preceded by gksudo .
It 'll pop up a dialog for you to enter your password into when you run like the other items in the system menu .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Go into your gnome menu editor and change the shortcut for it to be preceded by gksudo.
It'll pop up a dialog for you to enter your password into when you run like the other items in the system menu.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816915</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29820123</id>
	<title>2 nvidia cards and 3d accelleration</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256067900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>since they have so many graphical workstation that are part of they core business, can they tell me how I can use two nvidia video cards, connect 4 monitors, have xinerama working with 3d acceleration?  I am really struggling on this.<br>Thanks for anybody else who feels like landing a helping hand<br>TC</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>since they have so many graphical workstation that are part of they core business , can they tell me how I can use two nvidia video cards , connect 4 monitors , have xinerama working with 3d acceleration ?
I am really struggling on this.Thanks for anybody else who feels like landing a helping handTC</tokentext>
<sentencetext>since they have so many graphical workstation that are part of they core business, can they tell me how I can use two nvidia video cards, connect 4 monitors, have xinerama working with 3d acceleration?
I am really struggling on this.Thanks for anybody else who feels like landing a helping handTC</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29821741</id>
	<title>Re:Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>pbhj</author>
	<datestamp>1256130420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It rather sounds like they haven't bothered to find out though - I'd expect him to know a ball-park figure for what portion of his business relies on Linux, how do they know how much to spend on Linux drivers and promotion otherwise?</p><p>Canonical, as one of the largest Linux suppliers probably have an idea especially with popularity-contest of how many users are using Nvidia drivers, that would at least give you an idea of the approx userbase. I can't imagine that such a calculation would give a figure  0.5\%?!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It rather sounds like they have n't bothered to find out though - I 'd expect him to know a ball-park figure for what portion of his business relies on Linux , how do they know how much to spend on Linux drivers and promotion otherwise ? Canonical , as one of the largest Linux suppliers probably have an idea especially with popularity-contest of how many users are using Nvidia drivers , that would at least give you an idea of the approx userbase .
I ca n't imagine that such a calculation would give a figure 0.5 \ % ?
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It rather sounds like they haven't bothered to find out though - I'd expect him to know a ball-park figure for what portion of his business relies on Linux, how do they know how much to spend on Linux drivers and promotion otherwise?Canonical, as one of the largest Linux suppliers probably have an idea especially with popularity-contest of how many users are using Nvidia drivers, that would at least give you an idea of the approx userbase.
I can't imagine that such a calculation would give a figure  0.5\%?
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815677</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29833031</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256207160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Are you just ignoring the existence of every single opensource driver in linux RIGHT NOW?<br>The model works, obviously.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Are you just ignoring the existence of every single opensource driver in linux RIGHT NOW ? The model works , obviously .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are you just ignoring the existence of every single opensource driver in linux RIGHT NOW?The model works, obviously.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816255</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815935</id>
	<title>Lies, damn lies, and download rates</title>
	<author>Antique Geekmeister</author>
	<datestamp>1256038980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One powerful reason for the low Linux download rate is because the packaging for the NVidia Linux drivers is terrible. It doesn't upgrade properly, it replaces system provided OpenGL libraries with little warning, and it has lacked (the last time I looked) a way to detect if there is a more recent driver available. Instead, people install the freshrpms or atrpms or other repositories that report dependencies and available updates more reliably for RedHat based software,</p><p>I shouldn't have to compile a kernel module in order to install a software package: it should be published, or at least publishable, along with the updated kernel itself. But NVidia refuses to use licensing that would permit this, so they're going to continue to have people not only using alternative installation sources, but becoming quite angry when they update their kernels and their graphics drivers from NVidia stop working until they can be recompiled and a new kernel module built.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One powerful reason for the low Linux download rate is because the packaging for the NVidia Linux drivers is terrible .
It does n't upgrade properly , it replaces system provided OpenGL libraries with little warning , and it has lacked ( the last time I looked ) a way to detect if there is a more recent driver available .
Instead , people install the freshrpms or atrpms or other repositories that report dependencies and available updates more reliably for RedHat based software,I should n't have to compile a kernel module in order to install a software package : it should be published , or at least publishable , along with the updated kernel itself .
But NVidia refuses to use licensing that would permit this , so they 're going to continue to have people not only using alternative installation sources , but becoming quite angry when they update their kernels and their graphics drivers from NVidia stop working until they can be recompiled and a new kernel module built .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One powerful reason for the low Linux download rate is because the packaging for the NVidia Linux drivers is terrible.
It doesn't upgrade properly, it replaces system provided OpenGL libraries with little warning, and it has lacked (the last time I looked) a way to detect if there is a more recent driver available.
Instead, people install the freshrpms or atrpms or other repositories that report dependencies and available updates more reliably for RedHat based software,I shouldn't have to compile a kernel module in order to install a software package: it should be published, or at least publishable, along with the updated kernel itself.
But NVidia refuses to use licensing that would permit this, so they're going to continue to have people not only using alternative installation sources, but becoming quite angry when they update their kernels and their graphics drivers from NVidia stop working until they can be recompiled and a new kernel module built.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29820453</id>
	<title>Re:Holy War</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256115780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can't speak for the Linux team, but among other engineers at NVIDIA vim/emacs debate seems to result in a tie.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't speak for the Linux team , but among other engineers at NVIDIA vim/emacs debate seems to result in a tie .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't speak for the Linux team, but among other engineers at NVIDIA vim/emacs debate seems to result in a tie.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29822085</id>
	<title>Re:Measurement from the NVIDIA site?</title>
	<author>jeremyp</author>
	<datestamp>1256132880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Of course, many Windows and Apple users get the driver preinstalled or through other means that wouldn't be measured in the download figure.</p><p>In short, the download figure is completely useless as a measure of operating system share.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course , many Windows and Apple users get the driver preinstalled or through other means that would n't be measured in the download figure.In short , the download figure is completely useless as a measure of operating system share .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course, many Windows and Apple users get the driver preinstalled or through other means that wouldn't be measured in the download figure.In short, the download figure is completely useless as a measure of operating system share.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815677</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29832113</id>
	<title>What an outright lie!</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1256149560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Creating an AMD-like open-source strategy at NVIDIA would be time intensive and unlikely.</p></div><p>No it would NOT. You just add a license to the files, that lie right on your computer, run "git init" in that directory, and upload it to the web. Done!<br>The real reason is, that much of what makes your most expensive GPUs "differ" from the cheapest ones, is in the driver. Including some functionality, that you claim to be in the hardware.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Creating an AMD-like open-source strategy at NVIDIA would be time intensive and unlikely.No it would NOT .
You just add a license to the files , that lie right on your computer , run " git init " in that directory , and upload it to the web .
Done ! The real reason is , that much of what makes your most expensive GPUs " differ " from the cheapest ones , is in the driver .
Including some functionality , that you claim to be in the hardware .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Creating an AMD-like open-source strategy at NVIDIA would be time intensive and unlikely.No it would NOT.
You just add a license to the files, that lie right on your computer, run "git init" in that directory, and upload it to the web.
Done!The real reason is, that much of what makes your most expensive GPUs "differ" from the cheapest ones, is in the driver.
Including some functionality, that you claim to be in the hardware.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29821801</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>dnaumov</author>
	<datestamp>1256130780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>And trust me, I don't care how good a dev team you've put together, if they simply dumped the driver code out on the net I guarantee no one would be able to reverse engineer the damn thing.</p></div><p>Alright, I'll bite:

Considering a lot of opensource hardware drivers have been written by reverse engineering without having any original source code whatsoever to work with, why would having the code available suddenly make it harder?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And trust me , I do n't care how good a dev team you 've put together , if they simply dumped the driver code out on the net I guarantee no one would be able to reverse engineer the damn thing.Alright , I 'll bite : Considering a lot of opensource hardware drivers have been written by reverse engineering without having any original source code whatsoever to work with , why would having the code available suddenly make it harder ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And trust me, I don't care how good a dev team you've put together, if they simply dumped the driver code out on the net I guarantee no one would be able to reverse engineer the damn thing.Alright, I'll bite:

Considering a lot of opensource hardware drivers have been written by reverse engineering without having any original source code whatsoever to work with, why would having the code available suddenly make it harder?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816105</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29817811</id>
	<title>Re:Holy War</title>
	<author>socceroos</author>
	<datestamp>1256048940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree with this guy - for me, using those huge cumbersome IDEs only slows me down. I find them inefficient. I always feel I can go at optimum speed when I'm using the terminal.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with this guy - for me , using those huge cumbersome IDEs only slows me down .
I find them inefficient .
I always feel I can go at optimum speed when I 'm using the terminal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with this guy - for me, using those huge cumbersome IDEs only slows me down.
I find them inefficient.
I always feel I can go at optimum speed when I'm using the terminal.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29816923</id>
	<title>Holy War</title>
	<author>arielCo</author>
	<datestamp>1256044320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> <b>Q: Which text editors or IDEs do NVIDIA Linux developers use?</b> </p><p>Most of the engineers on the Linux driver team use emacs and/or vim for their day-to-day development work.</p></div> </blockquote><p>What, <b>no preference</b>? Heretics!</p><p>
[/sarcasm]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Q : Which text editors or IDEs do NVIDIA Linux developers use ?
Most of the engineers on the Linux driver team use emacs and/or vim for their day-to-day development work .
What , no preference ?
Heretics ! [ /sarcasm ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Q: Which text editors or IDEs do NVIDIA Linux developers use?
Most of the engineers on the Linux driver team use emacs and/or vim for their day-to-day development work.
What, no preference?
Heretics!
[/sarcasm]
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29818575</id>
	<title>Re:Lies, damn lies, and download rates</title>
	<author>3.1415926535</author>
	<datestamp>1256053740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From the nvidia-installer man page:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --update<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Connect  to the NVIDIA FTP server &rsquo; <a href="ftp://download.nvidia.com" title="nvidia.com" rel="nofollow">ftp://download.nvidia.com</a> [nvidia.com] &rsquo; and determine the lat<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; est  available  driver  version.   If  there  is  a  more  recent  driver   available,<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; automatically  download  and  install  it.  Any other options given on the commandline<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; will be passed on to the downloaded driver package when installing it.</p></div></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>From the nvidia-installer man page :               --update                             Connect to the NVIDIA FTP server    ftp : //download.nvidia.com [ nvidia.com ]    and determine the lat                             est available driver version .
If there is a more recent driver available ,                             automatically download and install it .
Any other options given on the commandline                             will be passed on to the downloaded driver package when installing it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From the nvidia-installer man page:
              --update
                            Connect  to the NVIDIA FTP server ’ ftp://download.nvidia.com [nvidia.com] ’ and determine the lat
                            est  available  driver  version.
If  there  is  a  more  recent  driver   available,
                            automatically  download  and  install  it.
Any other options given on the commandline
                            will be passed on to the downloaded driver package when installing it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815935</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29819329</id>
	<title>Re:There's only two questions that matter</title>
	<author>Eskarel</author>
	<datestamp>1256059260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They don't want to open source because they want to stay in business.</p><p>There are substantial performance optimizations in their drivers. That combined with the way they design their cards and architectures so that you basically use the same driver for every NVIDIA card(well nearly every desktop card) means that there's some rather substantial work that's been done on those drivers and quite a lot of their competitive advantages come from that work. They don't want to share that with their competitors and they don't want their linux drivers to significantly under perform on Linux, which is fair enough. They could be wrong in their assessment of these risks, but they are more than likely right.</p><p>I've always been an nvidia on linux supporter, but that's because, unlike ATI(unless it's changed recently), they're cards have always worked. They kept changes in sync with the kernel, kept up with changes in X, created viable 64 bit drivers. They fully support OpenGL 3d rendering on Linux, and they have for quite a number of years, much farther back than ATI did, and with much better quality.</p><p>True some of their extra features aren't implemented in Linux, but PhysX sucks anyway and no one really uses it, so that's no real loss.</p><p>The only criticism you can make of NVIDIAs dealings with Linux is that they haven't open sourced their driver. Aside from that, they've provided more resources and more support for the Linux platform than any other hardware company I've ever dealt with. Personally I don't mind the drivers being closed source because I don't fundamentally object to close source software, and I always prefer software which works and does what I want as opposed to software which is crap but conforms to some sort of ideology. Their driver works, and with the exception of some small gaps after major(and usually political) changes in the kernel, it always has. They take Linux seriously and work to support it fully. They haven't, for a number of likely legitimate business reasons, open sourced their driver, and they haven't actively supported attempts to create an open source driver, but they have otherwise done the right thing consistently and in sharp contrast with nearly everyone else.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They do n't want to open source because they want to stay in business.There are substantial performance optimizations in their drivers .
That combined with the way they design their cards and architectures so that you basically use the same driver for every NVIDIA card ( well nearly every desktop card ) means that there 's some rather substantial work that 's been done on those drivers and quite a lot of their competitive advantages come from that work .
They do n't want to share that with their competitors and they do n't want their linux drivers to significantly under perform on Linux , which is fair enough .
They could be wrong in their assessment of these risks , but they are more than likely right.I 've always been an nvidia on linux supporter , but that 's because , unlike ATI ( unless it 's changed recently ) , they 're cards have always worked .
They kept changes in sync with the kernel , kept up with changes in X , created viable 64 bit drivers .
They fully support OpenGL 3d rendering on Linux , and they have for quite a number of years , much farther back than ATI did , and with much better quality.True some of their extra features are n't implemented in Linux , but PhysX sucks anyway and no one really uses it , so that 's no real loss.The only criticism you can make of NVIDIAs dealings with Linux is that they have n't open sourced their driver .
Aside from that , they 've provided more resources and more support for the Linux platform than any other hardware company I 've ever dealt with .
Personally I do n't mind the drivers being closed source because I do n't fundamentally object to close source software , and I always prefer software which works and does what I want as opposed to software which is crap but conforms to some sort of ideology .
Their driver works , and with the exception of some small gaps after major ( and usually political ) changes in the kernel , it always has .
They take Linux seriously and work to support it fully .
They have n't , for a number of likely legitimate business reasons , open sourced their driver , and they have n't actively supported attempts to create an open source driver , but they have otherwise done the right thing consistently and in sharp contrast with nearly everyone else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They don't want to open source because they want to stay in business.There are substantial performance optimizations in their drivers.
That combined with the way they design their cards and architectures so that you basically use the same driver for every NVIDIA card(well nearly every desktop card) means that there's some rather substantial work that's been done on those drivers and quite a lot of their competitive advantages come from that work.
They don't want to share that with their competitors and they don't want their linux drivers to significantly under perform on Linux, which is fair enough.
They could be wrong in their assessment of these risks, but they are more than likely right.I've always been an nvidia on linux supporter, but that's because, unlike ATI(unless it's changed recently), they're cards have always worked.
They kept changes in sync with the kernel, kept up with changes in X, created viable 64 bit drivers.
They fully support OpenGL 3d rendering on Linux, and they have for quite a number of years, much farther back than ATI did, and with much better quality.True some of their extra features aren't implemented in Linux, but PhysX sucks anyway and no one really uses it, so that's no real loss.The only criticism you can make of NVIDIAs dealings with Linux is that they haven't open sourced their driver.
Aside from that, they've provided more resources and more support for the Linux platform than any other hardware company I've ever dealt with.
Personally I don't mind the drivers being closed source because I don't fundamentally object to close source software, and I always prefer software which works and does what I want as opposed to software which is crap but conforms to some sort of ideology.
Their driver works, and with the exception of some small gaps after major(and usually political) changes in the kernel, it always has.
They take Linux seriously and work to support it fully.
They haven't, for a number of likely legitimate business reasons, open sourced their driver, and they haven't actively supported attempts to create an open source driver, but they have otherwise done the right thing consistently and in sharp contrast with nearly everyone else.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_20_1948237.29815691</parent>
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