<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_07_13_1349203</id>
	<title>Hello World!</title>
	<author>samzenpus</author>
	<datestamp>1247508900000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="http://geekbook.org/" rel="nofollow">stoolpigeon</a> writes <i>"Hitting middle age has been an interesting time.  I catch myself thinking about how well kids have it today and sounding a lot like my father.  One difference is while my dad was happy to teach me about sports or cars, we never spent any time knocking out code together.  I think he did realize that home computers were important and I will always be grateful for the Commodore Vic-20 he brought home one day.  It was a substantial purchase for our household.  I spent many days copying lines of basic from magazines and saving the results to cassette tapes.  In my home today we have a considerably better situation, computing wise.  There are usually a couple laptops running as well as the desktop machine upstairs.  My kids take for granted what I found to be amazing and new.  Still, that's all pretty normal and I'd like to give them an opportunity to go deeper if they are so inclined, just like we give them opportunities to explore other skills and pursuits.  With that in mind I brought a copy of <em>Hello World!</em> home a few weeks ago, and the response from my oldest has been surprisingly enthusiastic."</i> Keep reading for the rest of JR's review.</htmltext>
<tokenext>stoolpigeon writes " Hitting middle age has been an interesting time .
I catch myself thinking about how well kids have it today and sounding a lot like my father .
One difference is while my dad was happy to teach me about sports or cars , we never spent any time knocking out code together .
I think he did realize that home computers were important and I will always be grateful for the Commodore Vic-20 he brought home one day .
It was a substantial purchase for our household .
I spent many days copying lines of basic from magazines and saving the results to cassette tapes .
In my home today we have a considerably better situation , computing wise .
There are usually a couple laptops running as well as the desktop machine upstairs .
My kids take for granted what I found to be amazing and new .
Still , that 's all pretty normal and I 'd like to give them an opportunity to go deeper if they are so inclined , just like we give them opportunities to explore other skills and pursuits .
With that in mind I brought a copy of Hello World !
home a few weeks ago , and the response from my oldest has been surprisingly enthusiastic .
" Keep reading for the rest of JR 's review .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>stoolpigeon writes "Hitting middle age has been an interesting time.
I catch myself thinking about how well kids have it today and sounding a lot like my father.
One difference is while my dad was happy to teach me about sports or cars, we never spent any time knocking out code together.
I think he did realize that home computers were important and I will always be grateful for the Commodore Vic-20 he brought home one day.
It was a substantial purchase for our household.
I spent many days copying lines of basic from magazines and saving the results to cassette tapes.
In my home today we have a considerably better situation, computing wise.
There are usually a couple laptops running as well as the desktop machine upstairs.
My kids take for granted what I found to be amazing and new.
Still, that's all pretty normal and I'd like to give them an opportunity to go deeper if they are so inclined, just like we give them opportunities to explore other skills and pursuits.
With that in mind I brought a copy of Hello World!
home a few weeks ago, and the response from my oldest has been surprisingly enthusiastic.
" Keep reading for the rest of JR's review.</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680565</id>
	<title>The beauty of this book</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247514120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>is that not only does it teach programming but as a side effect you're kids are guaranteed to be safe from pregnancy, STDs, or any form of social life.</htmltext>
<tokenext>is that not only does it teach programming but as a side effect you 're kids are guaranteed to be safe from pregnancy , STDs , or any form of social life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>is that not only does it teach programming but as a side effect you're kids are guaranteed to be safe from pregnancy, STDs, or any form of social life.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28683399</id>
	<title>Re:Not Python!</title>
	<author>david\_thornley</author>
	<datestamp>1247482860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
My blocks would be perfectly recognizable from indentation if you took all the braces out.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My blocks would be perfectly recognizable from indentation if you took all the braces out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
My blocks would be perfectly recognizable from indentation if you took all the braces out.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680547</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680433</id>
	<title>Sounds cool but</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247513640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I see your reasons and they aren't too bad but I wouldn't have picked Python myself. Maybe grab something from the top 3 most popular languages Java, (C, C++, C#) or PHP. As far as popularity goes though you could definitely do worse than Python.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I see your reasons and they are n't too bad but I would n't have picked Python myself .
Maybe grab something from the top 3 most popular languages Java , ( C , C + + , C # ) or PHP .
As far as popularity goes though you could definitely do worse than Python .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I see your reasons and they aren't too bad but I wouldn't have picked Python myself.
Maybe grab something from the top 3 most popular languages Java, (C, C++, C#) or PHP.
As far as popularity goes though you could definitely do worse than Python.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28787195</id>
	<title>Re:Thank you!</title>
	<author>Mortgage</author>
	<datestamp>1248255240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Thanks for the review, you just gave me an idea for what I'm going to be getting my nephews for their respective birthdays. Awesome!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></div><p>Its funny I find myself reflecting upon how different things are these days, even looking back to the 70's and 80's.  Technology advances so fast, which is good, I just think we sometimes get a little left behind.

Guess that is what happens with old age!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Thanks for the review , you just gave me an idea for what I 'm going to be getting my nephews for their respective birthdays .
Awesome ! : ) Its funny I find myself reflecting upon how different things are these days , even looking back to the 70 's and 80 's .
Technology advances so fast , which is good , I just think we sometimes get a little left behind .
Guess that is what happens with old age !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thanks for the review, you just gave me an idea for what I'm going to be getting my nephews for their respective birthdays.
Awesome! :)Its funny I find myself reflecting upon how different things are these days, even looking back to the 70's and 80's.
Technology advances so fast, which is good, I just think we sometimes get a little left behind.
Guess that is what happens with old age!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680141</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28690761</id>
	<title>Re:Very different from days of Compute! and Byte..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247585160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"it was a relatively simple matter to redefine a character set with a bunch of POKEs"</p><p>A bunch? Hello... Understatement of the Month Club?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" it was a relatively simple matter to redefine a character set with a bunch of POKEs " A bunch ?
Hello... Understatement of the Month Club ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"it was a relatively simple matter to redefine a character set with a bunch of POKEs"A bunch?
Hello... Understatement of the Month Club?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681081</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28687139</id>
	<title>Re:Expectations of today's 11 year old different</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247512800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He'd probably work out better without a shittarded MBA for a father.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He 'd probably work out better without a shittarded MBA for a father .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He'd probably work out better without a shittarded MBA for a father.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680775</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680845</id>
	<title>Re:Free alternative</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247515500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Another free alternative is  Livewires</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Another free alternative is Livewires</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Another free alternative is  Livewires</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680445</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681095</id>
	<title>Re:You missed the point of your own story</title>
	<author>dkleinsc</author>
	<datestamp>1247516520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Having taught kids programming, I've seen kids get really fascinated by the very simple game of "computer picks a random number between 1 and 100, user gets 10 guesses and is told higher, lower, or just right".</p><p>What's particularly nifty about that game, besides being easy to develop, is that it's a remarkably short conceptual hop from playing that game to understanding binary searches and base-2 logarithms. I've explained that stuff to 10-year-olds, and while I don't expect them to nail it on a test I do think that when they start having to deal with exponents and logs in 7th grade or so they'll have a big leg up on their classmates.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Having taught kids programming , I 've seen kids get really fascinated by the very simple game of " computer picks a random number between 1 and 100 , user gets 10 guesses and is told higher , lower , or just right " .What 's particularly nifty about that game , besides being easy to develop , is that it 's a remarkably short conceptual hop from playing that game to understanding binary searches and base-2 logarithms .
I 've explained that stuff to 10-year-olds , and while I do n't expect them to nail it on a test I do think that when they start having to deal with exponents and logs in 7th grade or so they 'll have a big leg up on their classmates .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having taught kids programming, I've seen kids get really fascinated by the very simple game of "computer picks a random number between 1 and 100, user gets 10 guesses and is told higher, lower, or just right".What's particularly nifty about that game, besides being easy to develop, is that it's a remarkably short conceptual hop from playing that game to understanding binary searches and base-2 logarithms.
I've explained that stuff to 10-year-olds, and while I don't expect them to nail it on a test I do think that when they start having to deal with exponents and logs in 7th grade or so they'll have a big leg up on their classmates.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680647</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28687923</id>
	<title>Re:Tabs or spaces, but not both</title>
	<author>Deltaspectre</author>
	<datestamp>1247564820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Spoken by someone who's truly never used python for a small project<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Spoken by someone who 's truly never used python for a small project : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Spoken by someone who's truly never used python for a small project :)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28683641</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680353</id>
	<title>C is the only starting language</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247513280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Stat with anything else and super bad habits and lack of understanding will result</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Stat with anything else and super bad habits and lack of understanding will result</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stat with anything else and super bad habits and lack of understanding will result</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28684023</id>
	<title>Re:Start them on a tricycle? Or a GSXR?</title>
	<author>diggitzz</author>
	<datestamp>1247486580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Should we teach our kids how to ride a motorcycle where pedaling isn't needed? Or do they need to learn to pedal before they ride a motorcycle?</p></div></blockquote><p>
Well, if they can't pedal they're not going to innovate better bicycles and tricycles, that's for sure.  But back to your analogy with algorithms...<br> <br>
The question becomes, do you want your kid to grow up a mathematician, scientist, or engineer?  Though it may not be immediately apparent, different programming mindsets are used for each of these disciplines, mainly due to the difference in the types of information needing to be computed and the types of problems to be solved.<br>
A kid well-schooled in algorithms might build us better encryption (or prove it impossible!) or might solve complex science puzzles that have never before been computable in all of human history!<br> <br>
Clearly *both* algorithm development and library-navigation are important to innovation, just as it's important to know how to solve  complex integrals before you go looking up solutions in a table... what other skill would you use when you discover that the algorithm you want doesn't exist (yet) ?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Should we teach our kids how to ride a motorcycle where pedaling is n't needed ?
Or do they need to learn to pedal before they ride a motorcycle ?
Well , if they ca n't pedal they 're not going to innovate better bicycles and tricycles , that 's for sure .
But back to your analogy with algorithms.. . The question becomes , do you want your kid to grow up a mathematician , scientist , or engineer ?
Though it may not be immediately apparent , different programming mindsets are used for each of these disciplines , mainly due to the difference in the types of information needing to be computed and the types of problems to be solved .
A kid well-schooled in algorithms might build us better encryption ( or prove it impossible !
) or might solve complex science puzzles that have never before been computable in all of human history !
Clearly * both * algorithm development and library-navigation are important to innovation , just as it 's important to know how to solve complex integrals before you go looking up solutions in a table... what other skill would you use when you discover that the algorithm you want does n't exist ( yet ) ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Should we teach our kids how to ride a motorcycle where pedaling isn't needed?
Or do they need to learn to pedal before they ride a motorcycle?
Well, if they can't pedal they're not going to innovate better bicycles and tricycles, that's for sure.
But back to your analogy with algorithms... 
The question becomes, do you want your kid to grow up a mathematician, scientist, or engineer?
Though it may not be immediately apparent, different programming mindsets are used for each of these disciplines, mainly due to the difference in the types of information needing to be computed and the types of problems to be solved.
A kid well-schooled in algorithms might build us better encryption (or prove it impossible!
) or might solve complex science puzzles that have never before been computable in all of human history!
Clearly *both* algorithm development and library-navigation are important to innovation, just as it's important to know how to solve  complex integrals before you go looking up solutions in a table... what other skill would you use when you discover that the algorithm you want doesn't exist (yet) ?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680523</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681637</id>
	<title>Easy start environment: Processing</title>
	<author>j-stroy</author>
	<datestamp>1247518620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I got into computers because I could hack the BASIC games on an Apple ][+<br> <br>Accessibility is king!  But finding which thread to grab amidst the jumble of a modern GUI OS is tricky!!<br> <br>I have just started playing with <a href="http://processing.org/learning/" title="processing.org">"Processing"</a> [processing.org] and it seems to have a nice mix of understandable code and super powerful libraries to take advantage of: cross platform, modern hardware and complex meta-behaviours that we might expect.<br> <br>As well, I am "sandboxing" with <a href="http://www.parallels.com/" title="parallels.com">"Parallels"</a> [parallels.com] on top of OSX and I have found it to be very stable. (It allows virtualization of Windows flavours, OS X &amp; varieties of linuxen concurrently)  The images can be booted Read Only or not.  Creating a bulletproof, clean starting environment is what kids(and productions) need, and virtualization images might be part of this.<br> <br>I'm new to virtualization, but it feels like the future to me.  Since I have taught in hands-on Lab settings I think this is a better solution for a shared use lab than straight up disk imaging... It would allow week by week, class by class customization of the Boot Image, and changes could always be rolled back.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I got into computers because I could hack the BASIC games on an Apple ] [ + Accessibility is king !
But finding which thread to grab amidst the jumble of a modern GUI OS is tricky ! !
I have just started playing with " Processing " [ processing.org ] and it seems to have a nice mix of understandable code and super powerful libraries to take advantage of : cross platform , modern hardware and complex meta-behaviours that we might expect .
As well , I am " sandboxing " with " Parallels " [ parallels.com ] on top of OSX and I have found it to be very stable .
( It allows virtualization of Windows flavours , OS X &amp; varieties of linuxen concurrently ) The images can be booted Read Only or not .
Creating a bulletproof , clean starting environment is what kids ( and productions ) need , and virtualization images might be part of this .
I 'm new to virtualization , but it feels like the future to me .
Since I have taught in hands-on Lab settings I think this is a better solution for a shared use lab than straight up disk imaging... It would allow week by week , class by class customization of the Boot Image , and changes could always be rolled back .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I got into computers because I could hack the BASIC games on an Apple ][+ Accessibility is king!
But finding which thread to grab amidst the jumble of a modern GUI OS is tricky!!
I have just started playing with "Processing" [processing.org] and it seems to have a nice mix of understandable code and super powerful libraries to take advantage of: cross platform, modern hardware and complex meta-behaviours that we might expect.
As well, I am "sandboxing" with "Parallels" [parallels.com] on top of OSX and I have found it to be very stable.
(It allows virtualization of Windows flavours, OS X &amp; varieties of linuxen concurrently)  The images can be booted Read Only or not.
Creating a bulletproof, clean starting environment is what kids(and productions) need, and virtualization images might be part of this.
I'm new to virtualization, but it feels like the future to me.
Since I have taught in hands-on Lab settings I think this is a better solution for a shared use lab than straight up disk imaging... It would allow week by week, class by class customization of the Boot Image, and changes could always be rolled back.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681081</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28687177</id>
	<title>Re:HTML/CSS/JavaScript</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247513340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, the best thing about it is that it doesn't have any error messages! If you have any typo, misspelling, or bad syntax, things just don't work. Then you get to explore the system to figure out why things won't work. What could be more fun for kids?</p><p>dom</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , the best thing about it is that it does n't have any error messages !
If you have any typo , misspelling , or bad syntax , things just do n't work .
Then you get to explore the system to figure out why things wo n't work .
What could be more fun for kids ? dom</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, the best thing about it is that it doesn't have any error messages!
If you have any typo, misspelling, or bad syntax, things just don't work.
Then you get to explore the system to figure out why things won't work.
What could be more fun for kids?dom</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681241</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680647</id>
	<title>Re:You missed the point of your own story</title>
	<author>CastrTroy</author>
	<datestamp>1247514540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Good point.  Also, how do you really get somebody interested in programming in this day and age?  I think it would be very hard to impress a kid with a "Hello World" console program with the current state of technology.  I mean, when QBasic Gorillas was right up there with the most advanced games, and you could learn how to modify it yourself in a week, then you got interested really fast, because you realized that programming wasn't some kind of magic.  But compare that to now, where it would take years of learning to get anything close to a current program, and it could be a difficult thing to get someone interested in the first place.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Good point .
Also , how do you really get somebody interested in programming in this day and age ?
I think it would be very hard to impress a kid with a " Hello World " console program with the current state of technology .
I mean , when QBasic Gorillas was right up there with the most advanced games , and you could learn how to modify it yourself in a week , then you got interested really fast , because you realized that programming was n't some kind of magic .
But compare that to now , where it would take years of learning to get anything close to a current program , and it could be a difficult thing to get someone interested in the first place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good point.
Also, how do you really get somebody interested in programming in this day and age?
I think it would be very hard to impress a kid with a "Hello World" console program with the current state of technology.
I mean, when QBasic Gorillas was right up there with the most advanced games, and you could learn how to modify it yourself in a week, then you got interested really fast, because you realized that programming wasn't some kind of magic.
But compare that to now, where it would take years of learning to get anything close to a current program, and it could be a difficult thing to get someone interested in the first place.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680361</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680141</id>
	<title>Thank you!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247512680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Thanks for the review, you just gave me an idea for what I'm going to be getting my nephews for their respective birthdays. Awesome!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Thanks for the review , you just gave me an idea for what I 'm going to be getting my nephews for their respective birthdays .
Awesome ! : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thanks for the review, you just gave me an idea for what I'm going to be getting my nephews for their respective birthdays.
Awesome! :)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681241</id>
	<title>HTML/CSS/JavaScript</title>
	<author>XxtraLarGe</author>
	<datestamp>1247517120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It seems to me if I had a child and wanted to teach them programming, I'd do it using these three techs in this order. You don't need any special software to write any of them, they are easy to learn, and there are millions of free examples available to you. The best thing is, no compiling, no need for a server. You can write a bit of code, open it with your browser and get instant gratification.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It seems to me if I had a child and wanted to teach them programming , I 'd do it using these three techs in this order .
You do n't need any special software to write any of them , they are easy to learn , and there are millions of free examples available to you .
The best thing is , no compiling , no need for a server .
You can write a bit of code , open it with your browser and get instant gratification .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It seems to me if I had a child and wanted to teach them programming, I'd do it using these three techs in this order.
You don't need any special software to write any of them, they are easy to learn, and there are millions of free examples available to you.
The best thing is, no compiling, no need for a server.
You can write a bit of code, open it with your browser and get instant gratification.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680719</id>
	<title>Re:Not Python!</title>
	<author>lysdexia</author>
	<datestamp>1247514900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are several reasons usually cited for using whitespace to define code blocks. Here's a decent intro.</p><p>http://www.diveintopython.org/getting\_to\_know\_python/indenting\_code.html</p><p>It's one of those things: I find it completely easy and intuitive. I don't have any trouble switching between python, perl and ksh (which are what I use to get most of my work done). A decent editor (I like vim) will usually take care of auto-indenting.</p><p>Or were you just kvetching?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are several reasons usually cited for using whitespace to define code blocks .
Here 's a decent intro.http : //www.diveintopython.org/getting \ _to \ _know \ _python/indenting \ _code.htmlIt 's one of those things : I find it completely easy and intuitive .
I do n't have any trouble switching between python , perl and ksh ( which are what I use to get most of my work done ) .
A decent editor ( I like vim ) will usually take care of auto-indenting.Or were you just kvetching ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are several reasons usually cited for using whitespace to define code blocks.
Here's a decent intro.http://www.diveintopython.org/getting\_to\_know\_python/indenting\_code.htmlIt's one of those things: I find it completely easy and intuitive.
I don't have any trouble switching between python, perl and ksh (which are what I use to get most of my work done).
A decent editor (I like vim) will usually take care of auto-indenting.Or were you just kvetching?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680547</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681145</id>
	<title>Re:Start them on a tricycle? Or a GSXR?</title>
	<author>muridae</author>
	<datestamp>1247516760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At that age, do they really need to know how to solve a sigma equation? I remember learning to code on an Apple IIe, writing lines of Apple basic on note pads before typing them in to make sure that I left enough line numbers free to add little patches back in later. No one ever told me that each line of code cost time, nor that each individual step on a line added to that time. In 4th grade, it didn't matter even on those slow computers. We were not dealing with concepts that would be useful in later life, and even a college freshman course in C++ broke all of those old bad habits.</p><p>As for teaching them to use libraries, you'll get a resounding "Yes!" from me. I've met CS graduates who, because the uni does not allow outside libraries for some projects, never learned how to search google for a function or known solution to a problem. They try to reinvent the wheel every single time. It makes sense in school, where the using a library prevents you from learning the underlying concept they are teaching, but it makes not a wit of sense in the real world. Same for writing a dynamic or shared library, depending on the OS. 10 years of college, and I can't remember a single class that covered anything other than static libraries linked in at build time.</p><p>None of that matters if the child doesn't want to learn how computers work, though. Some kids just want to play and build, stuff like Scratch, Processing, Squeek or Croquet. Others want to learn how to use it for more complex stuff, so languages like Haskell might be up their alley. And some kids are so curious that teaching them C and assembly on a small platform would be a good way to pique their interests (personal recommendation of the DS homebrew scene, but any console will do). There won't be 'one way' to teach kids to program, just like there isn't just one type of kid or one type of programmer. But leave the math topics till later, when the kid wants to learn how to do things faster or wants to learn the math.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At that age , do they really need to know how to solve a sigma equation ?
I remember learning to code on an Apple IIe , writing lines of Apple basic on note pads before typing them in to make sure that I left enough line numbers free to add little patches back in later .
No one ever told me that each line of code cost time , nor that each individual step on a line added to that time .
In 4th grade , it did n't matter even on those slow computers .
We were not dealing with concepts that would be useful in later life , and even a college freshman course in C + + broke all of those old bad habits.As for teaching them to use libraries , you 'll get a resounding " Yes !
" from me .
I 've met CS graduates who , because the uni does not allow outside libraries for some projects , never learned how to search google for a function or known solution to a problem .
They try to reinvent the wheel every single time .
It makes sense in school , where the using a library prevents you from learning the underlying concept they are teaching , but it makes not a wit of sense in the real world .
Same for writing a dynamic or shared library , depending on the OS .
10 years of college , and I ca n't remember a single class that covered anything other than static libraries linked in at build time.None of that matters if the child does n't want to learn how computers work , though .
Some kids just want to play and build , stuff like Scratch , Processing , Squeek or Croquet .
Others want to learn how to use it for more complex stuff , so languages like Haskell might be up their alley .
And some kids are so curious that teaching them C and assembly on a small platform would be a good way to pique their interests ( personal recommendation of the DS homebrew scene , but any console will do ) .
There wo n't be 'one way ' to teach kids to program , just like there is n't just one type of kid or one type of programmer .
But leave the math topics till later , when the kid wants to learn how to do things faster or wants to learn the math .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At that age, do they really need to know how to solve a sigma equation?
I remember learning to code on an Apple IIe, writing lines of Apple basic on note pads before typing them in to make sure that I left enough line numbers free to add little patches back in later.
No one ever told me that each line of code cost time, nor that each individual step on a line added to that time.
In 4th grade, it didn't matter even on those slow computers.
We were not dealing with concepts that would be useful in later life, and even a college freshman course in C++ broke all of those old bad habits.As for teaching them to use libraries, you'll get a resounding "Yes!
" from me.
I've met CS graduates who, because the uni does not allow outside libraries for some projects, never learned how to search google for a function or known solution to a problem.
They try to reinvent the wheel every single time.
It makes sense in school, where the using a library prevents you from learning the underlying concept they are teaching, but it makes not a wit of sense in the real world.
Same for writing a dynamic or shared library, depending on the OS.
10 years of college, and I can't remember a single class that covered anything other than static libraries linked in at build time.None of that matters if the child doesn't want to learn how computers work, though.
Some kids just want to play and build, stuff like Scratch, Processing, Squeek or Croquet.
Others want to learn how to use it for more complex stuff, so languages like Haskell might be up their alley.
And some kids are so curious that teaching them C and assembly on a small platform would be a good way to pique their interests (personal recommendation of the DS homebrew scene, but any console will do).
There won't be 'one way' to teach kids to program, just like there isn't just one type of kid or one type of programmer.
But leave the math topics till later, when the kid wants to learn how to do things faster or wants to learn the math.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680523</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28683103</id>
	<title>Get em a RepRap?</title>
	<author>nurb432</author>
	<datestamp>1247481540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, make them design and build their own.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , make them design and build their own .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, make them design and build their own.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680641</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28687581</id>
	<title>Re:Start them on a tricycle? Or a GSXR?</title>
	<author>JebJoya</author>
	<datestamp>1247604060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well, I for one started programming at the age of about 3 or 4 on my dad's Commodore 64, and it was all about just typing in these bits of code from some books he had, and starting through that to understand how different structures work, and more importantly, how to think about structuring a program.  I was a mathematician at Uni (23 now), and am now working as a techie/programmer for an OM firm, and that initial exposure to BASIC programming (pun intended) has stood me in good stead to pick up things like MATLAB and C while at Uni, and Python at work.  I would absolutely say to start on algorithmics and simple programs - it's like maths, understand the basics and how the stuff underneath works and the rest will follow.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , I for one started programming at the age of about 3 or 4 on my dad 's Commodore 64 , and it was all about just typing in these bits of code from some books he had , and starting through that to understand how different structures work , and more importantly , how to think about structuring a program .
I was a mathematician at Uni ( 23 now ) , and am now working as a techie/programmer for an OM firm , and that initial exposure to BASIC programming ( pun intended ) has stood me in good stead to pick up things like MATLAB and C while at Uni , and Python at work .
I would absolutely say to start on algorithmics and simple programs - it 's like maths , understand the basics and how the stuff underneath works and the rest will follow .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, I for one started programming at the age of about 3 or 4 on my dad's Commodore 64, and it was all about just typing in these bits of code from some books he had, and starting through that to understand how different structures work, and more importantly, how to think about structuring a program.
I was a mathematician at Uni (23 now), and am now working as a techie/programmer for an OM firm, and that initial exposure to BASIC programming (pun intended) has stood me in good stead to pick up things like MATLAB and C while at Uni, and Python at work.
I would absolutely say to start on algorithmics and simple programs - it's like maths, understand the basics and how the stuff underneath works and the rest will follow.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680523</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28683275</id>
	<title>Re:Not Python!</title>
	<author>RichardJenkins</author>
	<datestamp>1247482380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The justification at <a href="http://www.secnetix.de/olli/Python/block\_indentation.hawk" title="secnetix.de">http://www.secnetix.de/olli/Python/block\_indentation.hawk</a> [secnetix.de] is pretty telling ("Python does not allow to obfuscate the structure of a program by using bogus indentations"). I think it's consistent with their stated principles for the design of the language: what they call 'the zen of python' (copied below).</p><p>Personally I've come to find it quite useful, with the only downside being a disgusted voice in the back of my head saying "urgh, you're not supposed to do it this way". Certainly I've been flummoxed by plenty of indentation errors in my day.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>    Beautiful is better than ugly.<br>
    Explicit is better than implicit.<br>
    Simple is better than complex.<br>
    Complex is better than complicated.<br>
    Flat is better than nested.<br>
    Sparse is better than dense.<br>
    Readability counts.<br>
    Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules.<br>
    Although practicality beats purity.<br>
    Errors should never pass silently.<br>
    Unless explicitly silenced.<br>
    In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess.<br>
    There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.<br>
    Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch.<br>
    Now is better than never.<br>
    Although never is often better than *right* now.<br>
    If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea.<br>
    If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea.<br>
    Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!</p> </div></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The justification at http : //www.secnetix.de/olli/Python/block \ _indentation.hawk [ secnetix.de ] is pretty telling ( " Python does not allow to obfuscate the structure of a program by using bogus indentations " ) .
I think it 's consistent with their stated principles for the design of the language : what they call 'the zen of python ' ( copied below ) .Personally I 've come to find it quite useful , with the only downside being a disgusted voice in the back of my head saying " urgh , you 're not supposed to do it this way " .
Certainly I 've been flummoxed by plenty of indentation errors in my day .
Beautiful is better than ugly .
Explicit is better than implicit .
Simple is better than complex .
Complex is better than complicated .
Flat is better than nested .
Sparse is better than dense .
Readability counts .
Special cases are n't special enough to break the rules .
Although practicality beats purity .
Errors should never pass silently .
Unless explicitly silenced .
In the face of ambiguity , refuse the temptation to guess .
There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it .
Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you 're Dutch .
Now is better than never .
Although never is often better than * right * now .
If the implementation is hard to explain , it 's a bad idea .
If the implementation is easy to explain , it may be a good idea .
Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let 's do more of those !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The justification at http://www.secnetix.de/olli/Python/block\_indentation.hawk [secnetix.de] is pretty telling ("Python does not allow to obfuscate the structure of a program by using bogus indentations").
I think it's consistent with their stated principles for the design of the language: what they call 'the zen of python' (copied below).Personally I've come to find it quite useful, with the only downside being a disgusted voice in the back of my head saying "urgh, you're not supposed to do it this way".
Certainly I've been flummoxed by plenty of indentation errors in my day.
Beautiful is better than ugly.
Explicit is better than implicit.
Simple is better than complex.
Complex is better than complicated.
Flat is better than nested.
Sparse is better than dense.
Readability counts.
Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules.
Although practicality beats purity.
Errors should never pass silently.
Unless explicitly silenced.
In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess.
There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch.
Now is better than never.
Although never is often better than *right* now.
If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea.
If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea.
Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those! 
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680547</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681149</id>
	<title>Re:Blocks by indentation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247516760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>because it makes sense.

Back in the 1960s &amp; 70s I was working for IBM, when PL/I appeared. It uses Do... End to delineate blocks, and I was OK with that but then found it wasn't enough. So I developed an indentation scheme, jogging right at a Do and jogging back left at an End
(white space is ignored in PL/I). This made it much easier to grasp the logical flow at a glance. Unfortunately I didn't keep any examples when I quit programming, but I think it would look remarkably similar to Python (except for the Do &amp; End keywords).</htmltext>
<tokenext>because it makes sense .
Back in the 1960s &amp; 70s I was working for IBM , when PL/I appeared .
It uses Do... End to delineate blocks , and I was OK with that but then found it was n't enough .
So I developed an indentation scheme , jogging right at a Do and jogging back left at an End ( white space is ignored in PL/I ) .
This made it much easier to grasp the logical flow at a glance .
Unfortunately I did n't keep any examples when I quit programming , but I think it would look remarkably similar to Python ( except for the Do &amp; End keywords ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>because it makes sense.
Back in the 1960s &amp; 70s I was working for IBM, when PL/I appeared.
It uses Do... End to delineate blocks, and I was OK with that but then found it wasn't enough.
So I developed an indentation scheme, jogging right at a Do and jogging back left at an End
(white space is ignored in PL/I).
This made it much easier to grasp the logical flow at a glance.
Unfortunately I didn't keep any examples when I quit programming, but I think it would look remarkably similar to Python (except for the Do &amp; End keywords).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680547</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28694821</id>
	<title>Re:sounds like a great book!</title>
	<author>Frequency Domain</author>
	<datestamp>1247602620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>"This is so simple, even a child can do it! Someone get me a child, I can't make heads nor tails of it!"</p></div><p>Sounds like <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom\_Lehrer" title="wikipedia.org">Tom Lehrer</a> [wikipedia.org]'s song "New Math".
</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Hooray for new math!<br>
ne...e...ew math!<br>
It won't do you a bit of good<br>
to review math.<br>
'Cause it's so simple,<br>
so very simple,<br>
that only a child can do it!</p></div></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" This is so simple , even a child can do it !
Someone get me a child , I ca n't make heads nor tails of it !
" Sounds like Tom Lehrer [ wikipedia.org ] 's song " New Math " .
Hooray for new math !
ne...e...ew math !
It wo n't do you a bit of good to review math .
'Cause it 's so simple , so very simple , that only a child can do it !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"This is so simple, even a child can do it!
Someone get me a child, I can't make heads nor tails of it!
"Sounds like Tom Lehrer [wikipedia.org]'s song "New Math".
Hooray for new math!
ne...e...ew math!
It won't do you a bit of good
to review math.
'Cause it's so simple,
so very simple,
that only a child can do it!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680241</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680361</id>
	<title>You missed the point of your own story</title>
	<author>cephus</author>
	<datestamp>1247513340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You went out of your way to praise your Dad for having the foresight to move beyond his comfort zone by bringing home a computer.  Isn't computing simply your version of "sports and cars"?  Shouldn't you be trying to emulate your father by moving beyond your comfort zone and bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You went out of your way to praise your Dad for having the foresight to move beyond his comfort zone by bringing home a computer .
Is n't computing simply your version of " sports and cars " ?
Should n't you be trying to emulate your father by moving beyond your comfort zone and bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You went out of your way to praise your Dad for having the foresight to move beyond his comfort zone by bringing home a computer.
Isn't computing simply your version of "sports and cars"?
Shouldn't you be trying to emulate your father by moving beyond your comfort zone and bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28682533</id>
	<title>Re:You missed the point of your own story</title>
	<author>sagematt</author>
	<datestamp>1247479200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You went out of your way to praise your Dad for having the foresight to move beyond his comfort zone by bringing home a computer.  Isn't computing simply your version of "sports and cars"?  Shouldn't you be trying to emulate your father by moving beyond your comfort zone and bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours?</p></div><p>And this is bad because...?</p><p>If they don't like it, you can move on and try something else. But if they are already showing interest in computers... why not?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You went out of your way to praise your Dad for having the foresight to move beyond his comfort zone by bringing home a computer .
Is n't computing simply your version of " sports and cars " ?
Should n't you be trying to emulate your father by moving beyond your comfort zone and bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours ? And this is bad because... ? If they do n't like it , you can move on and try something else .
But if they are already showing interest in computers... why not ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You went out of your way to praise your Dad for having the foresight to move beyond his comfort zone by bringing home a computer.
Isn't computing simply your version of "sports and cars"?
Shouldn't you be trying to emulate your father by moving beyond your comfort zone and bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours?And this is bad because...?If they don't like it, you can move on and try something else.
But if they are already showing interest in computers... why not?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680361</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681415</id>
	<title>Re:Not Python!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247517840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So you don't have to argue about brace styles<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So you do n't have to argue about brace styles : - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you don't have to argue about brace styles :-)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680547</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681061</id>
	<title>Question for the OP</title>
	<author>immakiku</author>
	<datestamp>1247516340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You drew an analogy to parents projecting sports dreams onto their children. Do you see this as a positive phenomenon? Sure, if you value programming as the absolute best thing a child can be familiar with, this makes sense. But what if your child would naturally have favored or have talent in some other area - say physics? The activity you are pursuing with her could lead to relative underdevelopment in physics when naturally she might have become a great physicist.</p><p>An article featured on Slashdot a while back, titled "A Mathematician's Lament", described how, instead of prescribing a course for children to follow in Mathematics, a more effective way to teach math would be for each child to organically discover math on their own. I see that you are attempting to do similarly with your child and programming (instead of math). But that article also brought me to wonder, why favor one subject over another? Why not also let the child organically and naturally discover her talents and interests? Best results might come from doing this with "Hello World", as well as doing similar activities with art, music, physics, language, and sports, in equal proportions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You drew an analogy to parents projecting sports dreams onto their children .
Do you see this as a positive phenomenon ?
Sure , if you value programming as the absolute best thing a child can be familiar with , this makes sense .
But what if your child would naturally have favored or have talent in some other area - say physics ?
The activity you are pursuing with her could lead to relative underdevelopment in physics when naturally she might have become a great physicist.An article featured on Slashdot a while back , titled " A Mathematician 's Lament " , described how , instead of prescribing a course for children to follow in Mathematics , a more effective way to teach math would be for each child to organically discover math on their own .
I see that you are attempting to do similarly with your child and programming ( instead of math ) .
But that article also brought me to wonder , why favor one subject over another ?
Why not also let the child organically and naturally discover her talents and interests ?
Best results might come from doing this with " Hello World " , as well as doing similar activities with art , music , physics , language , and sports , in equal proportions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You drew an analogy to parents projecting sports dreams onto their children.
Do you see this as a positive phenomenon?
Sure, if you value programming as the absolute best thing a child can be familiar with, this makes sense.
But what if your child would naturally have favored or have talent in some other area - say physics?
The activity you are pursuing with her could lead to relative underdevelopment in physics when naturally she might have become a great physicist.An article featured on Slashdot a while back, titled "A Mathematician's Lament", described how, instead of prescribing a course for children to follow in Mathematics, a more effective way to teach math would be for each child to organically discover math on their own.
I see that you are attempting to do similarly with your child and programming (instead of math).
But that article also brought me to wonder, why favor one subject over another?
Why not also let the child organically and naturally discover her talents and interests?
Best results might come from doing this with "Hello World", as well as doing similar activities with art, music, physics, language, and sports, in equal proportions.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681853</id>
	<title>Re:Question for the OP</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247476320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You drew an analogy to parents projecting sports dreams onto their children. Do you see this as a positive phenomenon? Sure, if you value programming as the absolute best thing a child can be familiar with, this makes sense. But what if your child would naturally have favored or have talent in some other area - say physics? The activity you are pursuing with her could lead to relative underdevelopment in physics when naturally she might have become a great physicist.</p></div><p>Actually, I come from a different perspective. I view programming to be a liberal art (in the classic sense) - a core building block on the path towards being a well educated, well-rounded person. Very few people just program - they write applications and libraries that do things. I don't think you are going to hamper a budding physicist by teaching her how to program at the age of 9. Instead, getting kids excited about programming is probably one of the best ways to give them the tools (mental and physical) to explore whatever it is that interests them.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You drew an analogy to parents projecting sports dreams onto their children .
Do you see this as a positive phenomenon ?
Sure , if you value programming as the absolute best thing a child can be familiar with , this makes sense .
But what if your child would naturally have favored or have talent in some other area - say physics ?
The activity you are pursuing with her could lead to relative underdevelopment in physics when naturally she might have become a great physicist.Actually , I come from a different perspective .
I view programming to be a liberal art ( in the classic sense ) - a core building block on the path towards being a well educated , well-rounded person .
Very few people just program - they write applications and libraries that do things .
I do n't think you are going to hamper a budding physicist by teaching her how to program at the age of 9 .
Instead , getting kids excited about programming is probably one of the best ways to give them the tools ( mental and physical ) to explore whatever it is that interests them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You drew an analogy to parents projecting sports dreams onto their children.
Do you see this as a positive phenomenon?
Sure, if you value programming as the absolute best thing a child can be familiar with, this makes sense.
But what if your child would naturally have favored or have talent in some other area - say physics?
The activity you are pursuing with her could lead to relative underdevelopment in physics when naturally she might have become a great physicist.Actually, I come from a different perspective.
I view programming to be a liberal art (in the classic sense) - a core building block on the path towards being a well educated, well-rounded person.
Very few people just program - they write applications and libraries that do things.
I don't think you are going to hamper a budding physicist by teaching her how to program at the age of 9.
Instead, getting kids excited about programming is probably one of the best ways to give them the tools (mental and physical) to explore whatever it is that interests them.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681061</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680547</id>
	<title>Not Python!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247514060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why, Lord, Oh why are blocks defined by indentation!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why , Lord , Oh why are blocks defined by indentation !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why, Lord, Oh why are blocks defined by indentation!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28684643</id>
	<title>Re:You missed the point of your own story</title>
	<author>bitt3n</author>
	<datestamp>1247490300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You went out of your way to praise your Dad for having the foresight to move beyond his comfort zone by bringing home a computer.  Isn't computing simply your version of "sports and cars"?  Shouldn't you be trying to emulate your father by moving beyond your comfort zone and bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours?</p></div><p>yeah, why don't you bring home a real python</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You went out of your way to praise your Dad for having the foresight to move beyond his comfort zone by bringing home a computer .
Is n't computing simply your version of " sports and cars " ?
Should n't you be trying to emulate your father by moving beyond your comfort zone and bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours ? yeah , why do n't you bring home a real python</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You went out of your way to praise your Dad for having the foresight to move beyond his comfort zone by bringing home a computer.
Isn't computing simply your version of "sports and cars"?
Shouldn't you be trying to emulate your father by moving beyond your comfort zone and bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours?yeah, why don't you bring home a real python
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680361</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680523</id>
	<title>Start them on a tricycle? Or a GSXR?</title>
	<author>starglider29a</author>
	<datestamp>1247514000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here's a question: If we teach our kids to program, do we start them on:<br><tt><br>10 N=N+1<br>20 PRINT N<br>GOTO 10<br></tt><br>or OnClick="doHelloWorld"</p><p>After learning to program on a TRS-80 and later GWBASIC but now doing ASP.NET, I find myself looking at code (ExecuteSacalar()) as if every step takes 1/100th of a second, thus slowing performance. When in actuality, it takes a microsecond. Are we better off teaching them how to write an algorithm (How much is 1 + 2 + 3 +<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... + N?) or to start with finding what they need in a library? I've seen advantages and disadvantages to both my career.</p><p>Much of what I do now is finding the best canned operation (GridView) and toying with styles, rather than rolling my own Repeater. Seldom, but not never, does knowing how to step through a string get used. Although rolling my own DDL's is faster than letting<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET do it.</p><p>Should we teach our kids how to ride a motorcycle where pedaling isn't needed? Or do they need to learn to pedal before they ride a motorcycle?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's a question : If we teach our kids to program , do we start them on : 10 N = N + 120 PRINT NGOTO 10or OnClick = " doHelloWorld " After learning to program on a TRS-80 and later GWBASIC but now doing ASP.NET , I find myself looking at code ( ExecuteSacalar ( ) ) as if every step takes 1/100th of a second , thus slowing performance .
When in actuality , it takes a microsecond .
Are we better off teaching them how to write an algorithm ( How much is 1 + 2 + 3 + ... + N ?
) or to start with finding what they need in a library ?
I 've seen advantages and disadvantages to both my career.Much of what I do now is finding the best canned operation ( GridView ) and toying with styles , rather than rolling my own Repeater .
Seldom , but not never , does knowing how to step through a string get used .
Although rolling my own DDL 's is faster than letting .NET do it.Should we teach our kids how to ride a motorcycle where pedaling is n't needed ?
Or do they need to learn to pedal before they ride a motorcycle ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's a question: If we teach our kids to program, do we start them on:10 N=N+120 PRINT NGOTO 10or OnClick="doHelloWorld"After learning to program on a TRS-80 and later GWBASIC but now doing ASP.NET, I find myself looking at code (ExecuteSacalar()) as if every step takes 1/100th of a second, thus slowing performance.
When in actuality, it takes a microsecond.
Are we better off teaching them how to write an algorithm (How much is 1 + 2 + 3 + ... + N?
) or to start with finding what they need in a library?
I've seen advantages and disadvantages to both my career.Much of what I do now is finding the best canned operation (GridView) and toying with styles, rather than rolling my own Repeater.
Seldom, but not never, does knowing how to step through a string get used.
Although rolling my own DDL's is faster than letting .NET do it.Should we teach our kids how to ride a motorcycle where pedaling isn't needed?
Or do they need to learn to pedal before they ride a motorcycle?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680621</id>
	<title>FOSS isn't a reason...</title>
	<author>Obfuscant</author>
	<datestamp>1247514360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>FOSS isn't a reason to use a language to teach programming.<p>
FOSS doesn't mean there is a lot of freely available code to look at, FOSS means there is source code for the INTERPRETER that you can modify. I suspect it is written in C or C++, so you don't get any advantages in having the source for the python itself. Now, FOSS is a good argument for using gcc, since you get lots of example code<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><p>
Even "closed source" languages have freely available code to look at. MATLAB, e.g..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>FOSS is n't a reason to use a language to teach programming .
FOSS does n't mean there is a lot of freely available code to look at , FOSS means there is source code for the INTERPRETER that you can modify .
I suspect it is written in C or C + + , so you do n't get any advantages in having the source for the python itself .
Now , FOSS is a good argument for using gcc , since you get lots of example code .. . Even " closed source " languages have freely available code to look at .
MATLAB , e.g. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>FOSS isn't a reason to use a language to teach programming.
FOSS doesn't mean there is a lot of freely available code to look at, FOSS means there is source code for the INTERPRETER that you can modify.
I suspect it is written in C or C++, so you don't get any advantages in having the source for the python itself.
Now, FOSS is a good argument for using gcc, since you get lots of example code ...
Even "closed source" languages have freely available code to look at.
MATLAB, e.g..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28682215</id>
	<title>Re:You missed the point of your own story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247477880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>what software do you use to design a part for RepRap?  I've always been disappointed at FOSS options for solid modeling and part design. BRL-CAD is very well developed, but it wasn't made to be an intuitive part modeler like a SolidWorks or ProEngineer.</p><p>Also, I seem to recall the <a href="http://www.fabathome.org/" title="fabathome.org" rel="nofollow">Fab@Home</a> [fabathome.org] project having a parts/materials price tag of about $2500 (or that's what someone will sell you a kit for, not surel . That seems on par with what my parents probably spent on our first computer or two. (too young to know what the C-128 went for, but our first PC was about $2k).</p><p>Ok, finally found where RepRap claims a target of ~$400 for parts. not bad.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>what software do you use to design a part for RepRap ?
I 've always been disappointed at FOSS options for solid modeling and part design .
BRL-CAD is very well developed , but it was n't made to be an intuitive part modeler like a SolidWorks or ProEngineer.Also , I seem to recall the Fab @ Home [ fabathome.org ] project having a parts/materials price tag of about $ 2500 ( or that 's what someone will sell you a kit for , not surel .
That seems on par with what my parents probably spent on our first computer or two .
( too young to know what the C-128 went for , but our first PC was about $ 2k ) .Ok , finally found where RepRap claims a target of ~ $ 400 for parts .
not bad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>what software do you use to design a part for RepRap?
I've always been disappointed at FOSS options for solid modeling and part design.
BRL-CAD is very well developed, but it wasn't made to be an intuitive part modeler like a SolidWorks or ProEngineer.Also, I seem to recall the Fab@Home [fabathome.org] project having a parts/materials price tag of about $2500 (or that's what someone will sell you a kit for, not surel .
That seems on par with what my parents probably spent on our first computer or two.
(too young to know what the C-128 went for, but our first PC was about $2k).Ok, finally found where RepRap claims a target of ~$400 for parts.
not bad.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680641</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680775</id>
	<title>Expectations of today's 11 year old different</title>
	<author>fprintf</author>
	<datestamp>1247515260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The expectations of today's 9 - 14 year old is very different than for those of us learning BASIC on a Commodore or Atari in the early 80s. I tried Scratch and Kidsprogramminglanguage with my now-13 year old. As soon as he saw the creations we could make he said "at what point do I get to make a game like on Xbox or my computer?"  He just wasn't satisfied making lines on the screen or adding numbers or helping to solve his math homework (when it would be easier to solve it in his head). So, yes it would be cool to make lunar lander and I would have also been soooo happy to have such a game in 1983.</p><p>Then again, his favorite games now are often on Kongregate - sometimes the simpler the better, like launching a stick figure out of a cannon and solving various puzzles of angle, thrust, bounce etc. So maybe it is possible, but it needs to be graphic, challenging and most of all fun.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The expectations of today 's 9 - 14 year old is very different than for those of us learning BASIC on a Commodore or Atari in the early 80s .
I tried Scratch and Kidsprogramminglanguage with my now-13 year old .
As soon as he saw the creations we could make he said " at what point do I get to make a game like on Xbox or my computer ?
" He just was n't satisfied making lines on the screen or adding numbers or helping to solve his math homework ( when it would be easier to solve it in his head ) .
So , yes it would be cool to make lunar lander and I would have also been soooo happy to have such a game in 1983.Then again , his favorite games now are often on Kongregate - sometimes the simpler the better , like launching a stick figure out of a cannon and solving various puzzles of angle , thrust , bounce etc .
So maybe it is possible , but it needs to be graphic , challenging and most of all fun .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The expectations of today's 9 - 14 year old is very different than for those of us learning BASIC on a Commodore or Atari in the early 80s.
I tried Scratch and Kidsprogramminglanguage with my now-13 year old.
As soon as he saw the creations we could make he said "at what point do I get to make a game like on Xbox or my computer?
"  He just wasn't satisfied making lines on the screen or adding numbers or helping to solve his math homework (when it would be easier to solve it in his head).
So, yes it would be cool to make lunar lander and I would have also been soooo happy to have such a game in 1983.Then again, his favorite games now are often on Kongregate - sometimes the simpler the better, like launching a stick figure out of a cannon and solving various puzzles of angle, thrust, bounce etc.
So maybe it is possible, but it needs to be graphic, challenging and most of all fun.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28689369</id>
	<title>Re:Thank you!</title>
	<author>Phoghat</author>
	<datestamp>1247578980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm older than most everyone here (I think, I'm 62) and My Dad left school in the 8th grade and went to work as a truck driver. It was hard work but he loved to drive trucks. When I came along in 1947, he let me be free to be anything I wanted and, stressing education as very important, it was just assumed that I would be the first in my family to attend college. I was supplied with all the educational advantages available in the 50's and early 60's. Moms bought me an encyclopedia (that I read cover to cover), Pop bought me trivia books, comic books, and got me an adult library card. He never imposed any type of censorship onn the books I took out of the library and encouraged me to visit the library once weekly. This was cool because I took out books and met some cute girls at the library.<p>

Fast forward, when I graduated college, I got married and had 4 boys in the 70's. Computers were just being talked about and wishing to give my kids the advantages my Dad gave me, I got involved with programming. I bought a Timex computer (in a drug store!) and taught myself Basic and machine language. I bought computer magazines aimed at kids with programs you could type into the 'puter and save on a cassette player. The kids thought it was very cool.
BTW, although they didn't go into IT, they all attended college, they all became professionals, (except one, who's probably making more money than anyone else) and more importantly, they all are intelligent, well rounded, and happy individuals who will carry on the tradition of "maybe my children will be better than me and I'll be happy about it"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm older than most everyone here ( I think , I 'm 62 ) and My Dad left school in the 8th grade and went to work as a truck driver .
It was hard work but he loved to drive trucks .
When I came along in 1947 , he let me be free to be anything I wanted and , stressing education as very important , it was just assumed that I would be the first in my family to attend college .
I was supplied with all the educational advantages available in the 50 's and early 60 's .
Moms bought me an encyclopedia ( that I read cover to cover ) , Pop bought me trivia books , comic books , and got me an adult library card .
He never imposed any type of censorship onn the books I took out of the library and encouraged me to visit the library once weekly .
This was cool because I took out books and met some cute girls at the library .
Fast forward , when I graduated college , I got married and had 4 boys in the 70 's .
Computers were just being talked about and wishing to give my kids the advantages my Dad gave me , I got involved with programming .
I bought a Timex computer ( in a drug store !
) and taught myself Basic and machine language .
I bought computer magazines aimed at kids with programs you could type into the 'puter and save on a cassette player .
The kids thought it was very cool .
BTW , although they did n't go into IT , they all attended college , they all became professionals , ( except one , who 's probably making more money than anyone else ) and more importantly , they all are intelligent , well rounded , and happy individuals who will carry on the tradition of " maybe my children will be better than me and I 'll be happy about it "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm older than most everyone here (I think, I'm 62) and My Dad left school in the 8th grade and went to work as a truck driver.
It was hard work but he loved to drive trucks.
When I came along in 1947, he let me be free to be anything I wanted and, stressing education as very important, it was just assumed that I would be the first in my family to attend college.
I was supplied with all the educational advantages available in the 50's and early 60's.
Moms bought me an encyclopedia (that I read cover to cover), Pop bought me trivia books, comic books, and got me an adult library card.
He never imposed any type of censorship onn the books I took out of the library and encouraged me to visit the library once weekly.
This was cool because I took out books and met some cute girls at the library.
Fast forward, when I graduated college, I got married and had 4 boys in the 70's.
Computers were just being talked about and wishing to give my kids the advantages my Dad gave me, I got involved with programming.
I bought a Timex computer (in a drug store!
) and taught myself Basic and machine language.
I bought computer magazines aimed at kids with programs you could type into the 'puter and save on a cassette player.
The kids thought it was very cool.
BTW, although they didn't go into IT, they all attended college, they all became professionals, (except one, who's probably making more money than anyone else) and more importantly, they all are intelligent, well rounded, and happy individuals who will carry on the tradition of "maybe my children will be better than me and I'll be happy about it"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680729</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28683641</id>
	<title>Tabs or spaces, but not both</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247484360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't know what it is, but any discussion of Python brings about in me an almost primal reaction of disgust, I just can't help myself.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;) Syntactically important whitespace, what...the...@#\%!?


You know, if he had decided to make either spaces *or* tabs to delimit blocks, Python would suck so much. I mean, it would still suck, but just not as bad. Who doesn't love a language whose programs can be destroyed by the slightest whim of text editor or paste into a web comment field? Or destroyed by one developer using spaces and another tabs? Lord  knows you can't just run indent on a C program to make it formatted exactly the way you want it instead formatted like the insane designer of the language proscribes, except you can use both tabs and spaces to do it, of course.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)


BTW, I think this is next version of Python: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace\_(programming\_language)" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace\_(programming\_language)</a> [wikipedia.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know what it is , but any discussion of Python brings about in me an almost primal reaction of disgust , I just ca n't help myself .
; ) Syntactically important whitespace , what...the... @ # \ % ! ?
You know , if he had decided to make either spaces * or * tabs to delimit blocks , Python would suck so much .
I mean , it would still suck , but just not as bad .
Who does n't love a language whose programs can be destroyed by the slightest whim of text editor or paste into a web comment field ?
Or destroyed by one developer using spaces and another tabs ?
Lord knows you ca n't just run indent on a C program to make it formatted exactly the way you want it instead formatted like the insane designer of the language proscribes , except you can use both tabs and spaces to do it , of course .
: ) BTW , I think this is next version of Python : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace \ _ ( programming \ _language ) [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know what it is, but any discussion of Python brings about in me an almost primal reaction of disgust, I just can't help myself.
;) Syntactically important whitespace, what...the...@#\%!?
You know, if he had decided to make either spaces *or* tabs to delimit blocks, Python would suck so much.
I mean, it would still suck, but just not as bad.
Who doesn't love a language whose programs can be destroyed by the slightest whim of text editor or paste into a web comment field?
Or destroyed by one developer using spaces and another tabs?
Lord  knows you can't just run indent on a C program to make it formatted exactly the way you want it instead formatted like the insane designer of the language proscribes, except you can use both tabs and spaces to do it, of course.
:)


BTW, I think this is next version of Python: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace\_(programming\_language) [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681983</id>
	<title>Re:You missed the point of your own story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247476920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bah... Of course one who likes computers should introduce them to their kids. If the kids don't want to program, so be it. If they do, they'll have a knowledgeable mentor.</p><p>Sure, one should try to find and encourage all sorts of things, not just what one knows, but I thinks this mentality of not telling kids what you think or like is worrisome. If you don't influence your kids, fucking Toys'R'Us will.</p><p>Let the kids know what you think and what you like. Just don't be a dick about it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bah... Of course one who likes computers should introduce them to their kids .
If the kids do n't want to program , so be it .
If they do , they 'll have a knowledgeable mentor.Sure , one should try to find and encourage all sorts of things , not just what one knows , but I thinks this mentality of not telling kids what you think or like is worrisome .
If you do n't influence your kids , fucking Toys'R'Us will.Let the kids know what you think and what you like .
Just do n't be a dick about it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bah... Of course one who likes computers should introduce them to their kids.
If the kids don't want to program, so be it.
If they do, they'll have a knowledgeable mentor.Sure, one should try to find and encourage all sorts of things, not just what one knows, but I thinks this mentality of not telling kids what you think or like is worrisome.
If you don't influence your kids, fucking Toys'R'Us will.Let the kids know what you think and what you like.
Just don't be a dick about it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680361</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680241</id>
	<title>sounds like a great book!</title>
	<author>jollyreaper</author>
	<datestamp>1247512920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Going to be very disappointed if I get stuck. "This is so simple, even a child can do it! Someone get me a child, I can't make heads nor tails of it!"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Going to be very disappointed if I get stuck .
" This is so simple , even a child can do it !
Someone get me a child , I ca n't make heads nor tails of it !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Going to be very disappointed if I get stuck.
"This is so simple, even a child can do it!
Someone get me a child, I can't make heads nor tails of it!
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28684031</id>
	<title>Teaching a parent BASIC...</title>
	<author>VlartBlart</author>
	<datestamp>1247486640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I had my CBM64 I really wanted my dad to join in the fun of me learning to program - he seemed quite interested but this is how the conversation went...</p><p>ME: So, dad, we're going to print the phrase "Hello Dad" on the screen then print loads of them - it'll be fun<br>DAD: OK<br>ME: To print something we use the PRINT command so to print this phrase we type 10 PRINT "HELLO DAD" - 10 is the line number - like a number in an instruction book.<br>DAD: OK - But why PRINT?<br>ME: Errr, because that's the command...<br>DAD: Hmmmm, OK<br>ME: To print it loads we then type "20 GOTO 10", this means it will GOTO line 10 and print it again..<br>DAD: Why GOTO<br>ME: Errr, because that's the command...<br>DAD: OK<br>ME: now we can run it by typing RUN (Hello Dad scrolls up the screen)<br>DAD: Why RUN?<br>ME: Oh FUCK OFF - you're like a 3 year old!</p><p>That was the end of my dad's programming.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I had my CBM64 I really wanted my dad to join in the fun of me learning to program - he seemed quite interested but this is how the conversation went...ME : So , dad , we 're going to print the phrase " Hello Dad " on the screen then print loads of them - it 'll be funDAD : OKME : To print something we use the PRINT command so to print this phrase we type 10 PRINT " HELLO DAD " - 10 is the line number - like a number in an instruction book.DAD : OK - But why PRINT ? ME : Errr , because that 's the command...DAD : Hmmmm , OKME : To print it loads we then type " 20 GOTO 10 " , this means it will GOTO line 10 and print it again..DAD : Why GOTOME : Errr , because that 's the command...DAD : OKME : now we can run it by typing RUN ( Hello Dad scrolls up the screen ) DAD : Why RUN ? ME : Oh FUCK OFF - you 're like a 3 year old ! That was the end of my dad 's programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I had my CBM64 I really wanted my dad to join in the fun of me learning to program - he seemed quite interested but this is how the conversation went...ME: So, dad, we're going to print the phrase "Hello Dad" on the screen then print loads of them - it'll be funDAD: OKME: To print something we use the PRINT command so to print this phrase we type 10 PRINT "HELLO DAD" - 10 is the line number - like a number in an instruction book.DAD: OK - But why PRINT?ME: Errr, because that's the command...DAD: Hmmmm, OKME: To print it loads we then type "20 GOTO 10", this means it will GOTO line 10 and print it again..DAD: Why GOTOME: Errr, because that's the command...DAD: OKME: now we can run it by typing RUN (Hello Dad scrolls up the screen)DAD: Why RUN?ME: Oh FUCK OFF - you're like a 3 year old!That was the end of my dad's programming.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681091</id>
	<title>Re:Not Python!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247516520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I believe it is an effort to force the writer to write human readable code.</p><p>I started coding in C and moved to Python. Personally, I have been bitten more times by forgetting to put in an end bracket than I ever have been for setting the tabbing wrong.</p><p>Anyway, in C you are supposed to use tabbing to do this anyway just for the human readability, the only thing is in C you need to add brackets as an additional measure. Wasted characters IMO.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I believe it is an effort to force the writer to write human readable code.I started coding in C and moved to Python .
Personally , I have been bitten more times by forgetting to put in an end bracket than I ever have been for setting the tabbing wrong.Anyway , in C you are supposed to use tabbing to do this anyway just for the human readability , the only thing is in C you need to add brackets as an additional measure .
Wasted characters IMO .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I believe it is an effort to force the writer to write human readable code.I started coding in C and moved to Python.
Personally, I have been bitten more times by forgetting to put in an end bracket than I ever have been for setting the tabbing wrong.Anyway, in C you are supposed to use tabbing to do this anyway just for the human readability, the only thing is in C you need to add brackets as an additional measure.
Wasted characters IMO.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680547</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28682831</id>
	<title>NOT Javascript!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247480460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I write JS for a living and I wouldn't let that crap loose on anyone.  It's an awful language to learn - the runtime environments give little feedback about errors (and often incorrect feedback at that) it runs differently depending on which browser you use and the free tools for programming JS are crap.</p><p>I'd go for Java instead: all the FOSS advantages claimed for Python apply to Java as well, AND it performs very well ( typically 80\% the speed of C), it has a ton of game specific libraries written for it but you can use it 'out of the box' for writing games as well just with the standard libraries.  BUT - and this is the really big issue for me - it is *very* vocal about errors and the 'fail-fast' design philosophy really helps finding errors quickly.  There's nothing worse than doing some coding on something that already works and finding it no longer runs and you have no (correct) feedback about what the problem is - and this happens to me all the time in Javascript (even with good tools like Venkman or MS's script debug tool).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I write JS for a living and I would n't let that crap loose on anyone .
It 's an awful language to learn - the runtime environments give little feedback about errors ( and often incorrect feedback at that ) it runs differently depending on which browser you use and the free tools for programming JS are crap.I 'd go for Java instead : all the FOSS advantages claimed for Python apply to Java as well , AND it performs very well ( typically 80 \ % the speed of C ) , it has a ton of game specific libraries written for it but you can use it 'out of the box ' for writing games as well just with the standard libraries .
BUT - and this is the really big issue for me - it is * very * vocal about errors and the 'fail-fast ' design philosophy really helps finding errors quickly .
There 's nothing worse than doing some coding on something that already works and finding it no longer runs and you have no ( correct ) feedback about what the problem is - and this happens to me all the time in Javascript ( even with good tools like Venkman or MS 's script debug tool ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I write JS for a living and I wouldn't let that crap loose on anyone.
It's an awful language to learn - the runtime environments give little feedback about errors (and often incorrect feedback at that) it runs differently depending on which browser you use and the free tools for programming JS are crap.I'd go for Java instead: all the FOSS advantages claimed for Python apply to Java as well, AND it performs very well ( typically 80\% the speed of C), it has a ton of game specific libraries written for it but you can use it 'out of the box' for writing games as well just with the standard libraries.
BUT - and this is the really big issue for me - it is *very* vocal about errors and the 'fail-fast' design philosophy really helps finding errors quickly.
There's nothing worse than doing some coding on something that already works and finding it no longer runs and you have no (correct) feedback about what the problem is - and this happens to me all the time in Javascript (even with good tools like Venkman or MS's script debug tool).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681241</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28683857</id>
	<title>Re:Here's how you can tell</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247485680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>NOBODY is every really ready for C</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>NOBODY is every really ready for C</tokentext>
<sentencetext>NOBODY is every really ready for C</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680925</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28690089</id>
	<title>Why Python's whitespace use really is a problem</title>
	<author>walterbyrd</author>
	<datestamp>1247582100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you have the luxury of only working with your own code, and if you stick to your own conventions, then the whitespace issue may not be a big deal.</p><p>But, when I work with somebody else's code, I have to wonder: "what I am I looking at? Spaces? Tabs? Some combination of spaces and tabs?" I can not tell just by looking at the code, I have to do a hex dump, or something.</p><p>Then, if I want to put somebody else's code into my own, I have to muck with the code first to make sure I have the exact combination of spaces and tabs.</p><p>If I want to email Python code, or post Python code to a news-group, that is another potential headache.</p><p>Being able to use curly brackets makes the situation even worse. If somebody else uses curly  brackets, and I don't, then I have to muck with the code even more.</p><p>I especially can not understand why Python 3.0 allows the use of spaces and tabs. Python 3.0 was supposed to fix long standing problems with Python. Even Guido has commented that indentations should be four spaces - so why not make that mandatory? Such a standard would go a long way towards mitigating the whitespace issue, and Python 3.0 is throwing away backwards compatibility anyway.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you have the luxury of only working with your own code , and if you stick to your own conventions , then the whitespace issue may not be a big deal.But , when I work with somebody else 's code , I have to wonder : " what I am I looking at ?
Spaces ? Tabs ?
Some combination of spaces and tabs ?
" I can not tell just by looking at the code , I have to do a hex dump , or something.Then , if I want to put somebody else 's code into my own , I have to muck with the code first to make sure I have the exact combination of spaces and tabs.If I want to email Python code , or post Python code to a news-group , that is another potential headache.Being able to use curly brackets makes the situation even worse .
If somebody else uses curly brackets , and I do n't , then I have to muck with the code even more.I especially can not understand why Python 3.0 allows the use of spaces and tabs .
Python 3.0 was supposed to fix long standing problems with Python .
Even Guido has commented that indentations should be four spaces - so why not make that mandatory ?
Such a standard would go a long way towards mitigating the whitespace issue , and Python 3.0 is throwing away backwards compatibility anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you have the luxury of only working with your own code, and if you stick to your own conventions, then the whitespace issue may not be a big deal.But, when I work with somebody else's code, I have to wonder: "what I am I looking at?
Spaces? Tabs?
Some combination of spaces and tabs?
" I can not tell just by looking at the code, I have to do a hex dump, or something.Then, if I want to put somebody else's code into my own, I have to muck with the code first to make sure I have the exact combination of spaces and tabs.If I want to email Python code, or post Python code to a news-group, that is another potential headache.Being able to use curly brackets makes the situation even worse.
If somebody else uses curly  brackets, and I don't, then I have to muck with the code even more.I especially can not understand why Python 3.0 allows the use of spaces and tabs.
Python 3.0 was supposed to fix long standing problems with Python.
Even Guido has commented that indentations should be four spaces - so why not make that mandatory?
Such a standard would go a long way towards mitigating the whitespace issue, and Python 3.0 is throwing away backwards compatibility anyway.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680547</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28683359</id>
	<title>Re:Thank you!</title>
	<author>tuxgeek</author>
	<datestamp>1247482680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Agreed! any programming book makes the perfect gift for nieces &amp; nephews as well as your own children. I remember my first C programming book. I was fascinated with learning to code. I may even have to pick up this book as I have not yet learned python. Just another one of the many things I must do before I die.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed !
any programming book makes the perfect gift for nieces &amp; nephews as well as your own children .
I remember my first C programming book .
I was fascinated with learning to code .
I may even have to pick up this book as I have not yet learned python .
Just another one of the many things I must do before I die .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed!
any programming book makes the perfect gift for nieces &amp; nephews as well as your own children.
I remember my first C programming book.
I was fascinated with learning to code.
I may even have to pick up this book as I have not yet learned python.
Just another one of the many things I must do before I die.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680141</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28687873</id>
	<title>Re:Start them on a tricycle? Or a GSXR?</title>
	<author>commlinx</author>
	<datestamp>1247564280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Here's a question: If we teach our kids to program, do we start them on:<br> <br>
10 N=N+1<br>
20 PRINT N<br>
GOTO 10</p></div> </blockquote><p>Start them on "5 LET N=0" just in case</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's a question : If we teach our kids to program , do we start them on : 10 N = N + 1 20 PRINT N GOTO 10 Start them on " 5 LET N = 0 " just in case</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's a question: If we teach our kids to program, do we start them on: 
10 N=N+1
20 PRINT N
GOTO 10 Start them on "5 LET N=0" just in case
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680523</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681815</id>
	<title>Re:Free alternative</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247476200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Despite the title, it's aimed regular school kids and is being used to teach a class on python programming. It's just come out in a second edition. http://openbookproject.net//thinkCSpy/</p> </div><p>At least, they'll get familiar with everyone's favorite text editor when "Configuring Ubuntu for Python Development"...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Despite the title , it 's aimed regular school kids and is being used to teach a class on python programming .
It 's just come out in a second edition .
http : //openbookproject.net//thinkCSpy/ At least , they 'll get familiar with everyone 's favorite text editor when " Configuring Ubuntu for Python Development " .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Despite the title, it's aimed regular school kids and is being used to teach a class on python programming.
It's just come out in a second edition.
http://openbookproject.net//thinkCSpy/ At least, they'll get familiar with everyone's favorite text editor when "Configuring Ubuntu for Python Development"...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680445</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680439</id>
	<title>Re:You missed the point of your own story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247513700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Shouldn't you shut up? The last thing the world needs are more kids who are only good at playing sports.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Should n't you shut up ?
The last thing the world needs are more kids who are only good at playing sports .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Shouldn't you shut up?
The last thing the world needs are more kids who are only good at playing sports.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680361</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680925</id>
	<title>Here's how you can tell</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247515800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hand your kid a copy of The C Programming Language. If they can't handle that, they are not ready.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hand your kid a copy of The C Programming Language .
If they ca n't handle that , they are not ready .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hand your kid a copy of The C Programming Language.
If they can't handle that, they are not ready.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28685713</id>
	<title>Educational Programming languages</title>
	<author>jbolden</author>
	<datestamp>1247499840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If any parents are reading this, just wanted to mention I've (+other's help) written an article on wikipedia covering the educational programming language domain:</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational\_programming\_language" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational\_programming\_language</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If any parents are reading this , just wanted to mention I 've ( + other 's help ) written an article on wikipedia covering the educational programming language domain : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational \ _programming \ _language [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If any parents are reading this, just wanted to mention I've (+other's help) written an article on wikipedia covering the educational programming language domain:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational\_programming\_language [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681025</id>
	<title>Re:Not Python!</title>
	<author>rhoderickj</author>
	<datestamp>1247516220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Using whitespace to define code blocks is awkward at first. I revolted at the idea for a good year or two before finally giving it a go. Ultimately, I barely noticed. Looking back, one could just as easily say, "Why, Lord Oh why are blocks defined by braces!" Honestly, most of us are just used to braces, so anything different is bound to give rise to the knee-jerk reactions of fear and disgust. Ultimately, it is much like how people refuse to use Firefox or Opera over IE: "You mean I don't click the little E to get Internet? That's absurd!"

In the end, I found that I disliked Python for other reasons, but the use of whitespace is not one of them. Even so, it's a great language and deserves a look.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Using whitespace to define code blocks is awkward at first .
I revolted at the idea for a good year or two before finally giving it a go .
Ultimately , I barely noticed .
Looking back , one could just as easily say , " Why , Lord Oh why are blocks defined by braces !
" Honestly , most of us are just used to braces , so anything different is bound to give rise to the knee-jerk reactions of fear and disgust .
Ultimately , it is much like how people refuse to use Firefox or Opera over IE : " You mean I do n't click the little E to get Internet ?
That 's absurd !
" In the end , I found that I disliked Python for other reasons , but the use of whitespace is not one of them .
Even so , it 's a great language and deserves a look .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Using whitespace to define code blocks is awkward at first.
I revolted at the idea for a good year or two before finally giving it a go.
Ultimately, I barely noticed.
Looking back, one could just as easily say, "Why, Lord Oh why are blocks defined by braces!
" Honestly, most of us are just used to braces, so anything different is bound to give rise to the knee-jerk reactions of fear and disgust.
Ultimately, it is much like how people refuse to use Firefox or Opera over IE: "You mean I don't click the little E to get Internet?
That's absurd!
"

In the end, I found that I disliked Python for other reasons, but the use of whitespace is not one of them.
Even so, it's a great language and deserves a look.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680547</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28684491</id>
	<title>Re:Thank you!</title>
	<author>freeweed</author>
	<datestamp>1247489400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>At the risk of being modded a troll... </i></p><p>I'm lost. Why would you think you'd be modded a troll for reading a book review on Slashdot, then saying "hey, I think I'm going to buy this book!".</p><p>Or is this reverse-psychology karma whoring taken to a new, pointless level?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At the risk of being modded a troll... I 'm lost .
Why would you think you 'd be modded a troll for reading a book review on Slashdot , then saying " hey , I think I 'm going to buy this book !
" .Or is this reverse-psychology karma whoring taken to a new , pointless level ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At the risk of being modded a troll... I'm lost.
Why would you think you'd be modded a troll for reading a book review on Slashdot, then saying "hey, I think I'm going to buy this book!
".Or is this reverse-psychology karma whoring taken to a new, pointless level?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680693</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28684723</id>
	<title>Re:Question for the OP</title>
	<author>stoolpigeon</author>
	<datestamp>1247491140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am not a big fan of pushing kids too hard.  At the same time I don't believe in a laissez-faire type approach to parenting either.  I believe it is my responsibility to guide and help them grow.  We let them try all kinds of stuff and tell them that if they are willing to work hard enough they can do almost anything.</p><p>I am not a perfect parent, but I do my best.</p><p>What I find to be a very interesting phenomenon is how many people not only have very strong opinions about parenting but feel that those strong opinions should be observed by everyone.  It's odd how often anyone with kids runs into these types of people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am not a big fan of pushing kids too hard .
At the same time I do n't believe in a laissez-faire type approach to parenting either .
I believe it is my responsibility to guide and help them grow .
We let them try all kinds of stuff and tell them that if they are willing to work hard enough they can do almost anything.I am not a perfect parent , but I do my best.What I find to be a very interesting phenomenon is how many people not only have very strong opinions about parenting but feel that those strong opinions should be observed by everyone .
It 's odd how often anyone with kids runs into these types of people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am not a big fan of pushing kids too hard.
At the same time I don't believe in a laissez-faire type approach to parenting either.
I believe it is my responsibility to guide and help them grow.
We let them try all kinds of stuff and tell them that if they are willing to work hard enough they can do almost anything.I am not a perfect parent, but I do my best.What I find to be a very interesting phenomenon is how many people not only have very strong opinions about parenting but feel that those strong opinions should be observed by everyone.
It's odd how often anyone with kids runs into these types of people.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681061</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680729</id>
	<title>Re:Thank you!</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1247515020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I catch myself thinking about how well kids have it today</i></p><p>It's like that with every generation. My dad rode a mule to school, I had a school bus. Today's kids (some of them anyway) have air conditioning in the classrooms.</p><p>But in a lot of ways the kids have it harder. For instance, there was no such thing as crack when I was a kid, and meth was only manufactured in drug company factories. If I needed a ride I could find a pay phione, today if you lose your cell you can't make a call.</p><p><i>My kids take for granted what I found to be amazing and new</i></p><p>I took running water for granted; well, mostly, because when I was small my grandparents still didn't have running water.</p><p>However, I'm not looking forward to being as old as my parents are now. My dad says "I lived 78 years without a computer and cell phone and I don't need it now", while my maternal grandfather said the same thing about indoor plumbing. Even afetr my uncle put a bathroom in his house, he still used the outhouse! I visited my Mom Saturday, and she was saying the same thing about cell phones. She has one, but she never uses it (it's maddening, these days you expect to actually be able to communicate with people).</p><p>When I was a kid, <a href="http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/3/28/184436/250" title="kuro5hin.org">only rich, giant corporations had computers</a> [kuro5hin.org] and about the the only interaction a normal person had with one was that your electric bill came on a Hollerith card.</p><p>BTW and OT, but who gave mod points to a troll? The parent comment should have been left neutral, or at worst, modded "overrated". The book would indeed make a good gift.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I catch myself thinking about how well kids have it todayIt 's like that with every generation .
My dad rode a mule to school , I had a school bus .
Today 's kids ( some of them anyway ) have air conditioning in the classrooms.But in a lot of ways the kids have it harder .
For instance , there was no such thing as crack when I was a kid , and meth was only manufactured in drug company factories .
If I needed a ride I could find a pay phione , today if you lose your cell you ca n't make a call.My kids take for granted what I found to be amazing and newI took running water for granted ; well , mostly , because when I was small my grandparents still did n't have running water.However , I 'm not looking forward to being as old as my parents are now .
My dad says " I lived 78 years without a computer and cell phone and I do n't need it now " , while my maternal grandfather said the same thing about indoor plumbing .
Even afetr my uncle put a bathroom in his house , he still used the outhouse !
I visited my Mom Saturday , and she was saying the same thing about cell phones .
She has one , but she never uses it ( it 's maddening , these days you expect to actually be able to communicate with people ) .When I was a kid , only rich , giant corporations had computers [ kuro5hin.org ] and about the the only interaction a normal person had with one was that your electric bill came on a Hollerith card.BTW and OT , but who gave mod points to a troll ?
The parent comment should have been left neutral , or at worst , modded " overrated " .
The book would indeed make a good gift .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I catch myself thinking about how well kids have it todayIt's like that with every generation.
My dad rode a mule to school, I had a school bus.
Today's kids (some of them anyway) have air conditioning in the classrooms.But in a lot of ways the kids have it harder.
For instance, there was no such thing as crack when I was a kid, and meth was only manufactured in drug company factories.
If I needed a ride I could find a pay phione, today if you lose your cell you can't make a call.My kids take for granted what I found to be amazing and newI took running water for granted; well, mostly, because when I was small my grandparents still didn't have running water.However, I'm not looking forward to being as old as my parents are now.
My dad says "I lived 78 years without a computer and cell phone and I don't need it now", while my maternal grandfather said the same thing about indoor plumbing.
Even afetr my uncle put a bathroom in his house, he still used the outhouse!
I visited my Mom Saturday, and she was saying the same thing about cell phones.
She has one, but she never uses it (it's maddening, these days you expect to actually be able to communicate with people).When I was a kid, only rich, giant corporations had computers [kuro5hin.org] and about the the only interaction a normal person had with one was that your electric bill came on a Hollerith card.BTW and OT, but who gave mod points to a troll?
The parent comment should have been left neutral, or at worst, modded "overrated".
The book would indeed make a good gift.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680141</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28693469</id>
	<title>Re:The beauty of this book</title>
	<author>Doctor Faustus</author>
	<datestamp>1247596380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>as a side effect you're kids are guaranteed to be safe from pregnancy, STDs, or any form of social life.</i><br>That's why I've also been teaching my son guitar.</p><p>He complains about having to practice, and I tell him that most parents tell their kids they'll thank them when they're grown-ups, but he'll thank me when he's a teenager.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>as a side effect you 're kids are guaranteed to be safe from pregnancy , STDs , or any form of social life.That 's why I 've also been teaching my son guitar.He complains about having to practice , and I tell him that most parents tell their kids they 'll thank them when they 're grown-ups , but he 'll thank me when he 's a teenager .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>as a side effect you're kids are guaranteed to be safe from pregnancy, STDs, or any form of social life.That's why I've also been teaching my son guitar.He complains about having to practice, and I tell him that most parents tell their kids they'll thank them when they're grown-ups, but he'll thank me when he's a teenager.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680565</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680773</id>
	<title>Sounds familiar...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247515200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Hitting middle age has been an interesting time. I catch myself thinking about how well kids have it today and sounding a lot like my father. One difference is while my dad was happy to teach me about horses or goats, we never spent any time hooking up pipes together. I think he did realize that indoor plumbing was important and I will always be grateful for the commode he brought home one day. It was a substantial purchase for our household. I spent many days excreting feces and flushing the results down the toilet. In my home today we have a considerably better situation, plumbing wise. There are usually a couple showers running as well as the jacuzzi upstairs. My kids take for granted what I found to be amazing and new. Still, that's all pretty normal and I'd like to give them an opportunity to go deeper if they are so inclined, just like we give them opportunities to explore other skills and pursuits. With that in mind I brought a copy of Hello Plumbing! home a few weeks ago, and the response from my oldest has been surprisingly enthusiastic."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Hitting middle age has been an interesting time .
I catch myself thinking about how well kids have it today and sounding a lot like my father .
One difference is while my dad was happy to teach me about horses or goats , we never spent any time hooking up pipes together .
I think he did realize that indoor plumbing was important and I will always be grateful for the commode he brought home one day .
It was a substantial purchase for our household .
I spent many days excreting feces and flushing the results down the toilet .
In my home today we have a considerably better situation , plumbing wise .
There are usually a couple showers running as well as the jacuzzi upstairs .
My kids take for granted what I found to be amazing and new .
Still , that 's all pretty normal and I 'd like to give them an opportunity to go deeper if they are so inclined , just like we give them opportunities to explore other skills and pursuits .
With that in mind I brought a copy of Hello Plumbing !
home a few weeks ago , and the response from my oldest has been surprisingly enthusiastic .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Hitting middle age has been an interesting time.
I catch myself thinking about how well kids have it today and sounding a lot like my father.
One difference is while my dad was happy to teach me about horses or goats, we never spent any time hooking up pipes together.
I think he did realize that indoor plumbing was important and I will always be grateful for the commode he brought home one day.
It was a substantial purchase for our household.
I spent many days excreting feces and flushing the results down the toilet.
In my home today we have a considerably better situation, plumbing wise.
There are usually a couple showers running as well as the jacuzzi upstairs.
My kids take for granted what I found to be amazing and new.
Still, that's all pretty normal and I'd like to give them an opportunity to go deeper if they are so inclined, just like we give them opportunities to explore other skills and pursuits.
With that in mind I brought a copy of Hello Plumbing!
home a few weeks ago, and the response from my oldest has been surprisingly enthusiastic.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681959</id>
	<title>Re:You missed the point of your own story</title>
	<author>badboy\_tw2002</author>
	<datestamp>1247476800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I started when I was 7 or so in BASIC - at that time there was no way I was going to make anything as advanced as asteroids or frogger, but being able to write a "choose your own adventure" game with if loops and PRINT statements was pretty awesome to me.  The first time I managed to make the speaker beep was an achievement.</p><p>Think about it this way - there are great works of art out there yet a child will spend hours and hours coloring and making stick figures.  They don't seem to be discouraged by it at all.  The process of doing and learning is its own reward.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I started when I was 7 or so in BASIC - at that time there was no way I was going to make anything as advanced as asteroids or frogger , but being able to write a " choose your own adventure " game with if loops and PRINT statements was pretty awesome to me .
The first time I managed to make the speaker beep was an achievement.Think about it this way - there are great works of art out there yet a child will spend hours and hours coloring and making stick figures .
They do n't seem to be discouraged by it at all .
The process of doing and learning is its own reward .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started when I was 7 or so in BASIC - at that time there was no way I was going to make anything as advanced as asteroids or frogger, but being able to write a "choose your own adventure" game with if loops and PRINT statements was pretty awesome to me.
The first time I managed to make the speaker beep was an achievement.Think about it this way - there are great works of art out there yet a child will spend hours and hours coloring and making stick figures.
They don't seem to be discouraged by it at all.
The process of doing and learning is its own reward.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680647</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681081</id>
	<title>Very different from days of Compute! and Byte...</title>
	<author>digitalhermit</author>
	<datestamp>1247516460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Back then, if you wanted to play a game you often had to copy programs from source code listings. So you had things like line validators (checksum as you entered each line) and whole sections devoted to programming. The projects, I think, were also very different. I remember building a WeFax device to decode satellite weather facsimile images. There was also the Ciarcia articles that talked about everything from building a micro-computer to assembly programming.</p><p>Sure, there are still programming magazines, but we don't have to solve the same things we did then. Now it's just a matter of running CPAN, downloading a Flash or Java snippet, or just a #include.</p><p>That's why I'm super grateful for the availability of Linux, free software, and the suite of compilers. I remember saving up for weeks to purchase Megamax C and later GFA BASIC. I remember borrowing a Z80 card so that I could run Borland Turbo Pascal.  Now it's a quick download and every language I want is available within moments.</p><p>The downside is that it's a lot more complex now. If I wanted to make a graphics program back then, for example on TI BASIC, it was a relatively simple matter to redefine a character set with a bunch of POKEs.  Now we have to worry about initializing a window, internationalization, acceleration, etc.. Sometimes it's a bit daunting for non-professionals. Sure, there things like SDL and TCL/TK and a raft of IDEs, but still I don't think it is as easy as it was back then.  (Of course, today's software does a lot more).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Back then , if you wanted to play a game you often had to copy programs from source code listings .
So you had things like line validators ( checksum as you entered each line ) and whole sections devoted to programming .
The projects , I think , were also very different .
I remember building a WeFax device to decode satellite weather facsimile images .
There was also the Ciarcia articles that talked about everything from building a micro-computer to assembly programming.Sure , there are still programming magazines , but we do n't have to solve the same things we did then .
Now it 's just a matter of running CPAN , downloading a Flash or Java snippet , or just a # include.That 's why I 'm super grateful for the availability of Linux , free software , and the suite of compilers .
I remember saving up for weeks to purchase Megamax C and later GFA BASIC .
I remember borrowing a Z80 card so that I could run Borland Turbo Pascal .
Now it 's a quick download and every language I want is available within moments.The downside is that it 's a lot more complex now .
If I wanted to make a graphics program back then , for example on TI BASIC , it was a relatively simple matter to redefine a character set with a bunch of POKEs .
Now we have to worry about initializing a window , internationalization , acceleration , etc.. Sometimes it 's a bit daunting for non-professionals .
Sure , there things like SDL and TCL/TK and a raft of IDEs , but still I do n't think it is as easy as it was back then .
( Of course , today 's software does a lot more ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back then, if you wanted to play a game you often had to copy programs from source code listings.
So you had things like line validators (checksum as you entered each line) and whole sections devoted to programming.
The projects, I think, were also very different.
I remember building a WeFax device to decode satellite weather facsimile images.
There was also the Ciarcia articles that talked about everything from building a micro-computer to assembly programming.Sure, there are still programming magazines, but we don't have to solve the same things we did then.
Now it's just a matter of running CPAN, downloading a Flash or Java snippet, or just a #include.That's why I'm super grateful for the availability of Linux, free software, and the suite of compilers.
I remember saving up for weeks to purchase Megamax C and later GFA BASIC.
I remember borrowing a Z80 card so that I could run Borland Turbo Pascal.
Now it's a quick download and every language I want is available within moments.The downside is that it's a lot more complex now.
If I wanted to make a graphics program back then, for example on TI BASIC, it was a relatively simple matter to redefine a character set with a bunch of POKEs.
Now we have to worry about initializing a window, internationalization, acceleration, etc.. Sometimes it's a bit daunting for non-professionals.
Sure, there things like SDL and TCL/TK and a raft of IDEs, but still I don't think it is as easy as it was back then.
(Of course, today's software does a lot more).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28721289</id>
	<title>Re:sounds like a great book!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247776080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They are missing the point. Unless you can have people typing in source for something that will make them say ohhhh and ahhhh after they execute what they typed.</p><p>Typing in useful  code for something that can balance a check book, or sort a telephone book in nlog n time will not be appreciated by so many people. What you need is, to bring things down to earth, a book for some multimedia engine that has abstracted out the core functions of multimedia and have people code a demo or a playable game after they type in code. Only then would you get younger generations of people interested in code.</p><p>For an example of something eye catching see the productions by Future Crew http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future\_Crew. But these are only executed. Still they provide the wonder of typing in lines and lines of code from byte or compute gazette (Which I have done, thank you very much!) because you have to put in some elbow grease and at the end you are rewarded for your efforts.</p><p>Im sure the book will be useful to someone. But unless the productions (book,demos,code, whatever) serve as a spring board to some thing else...It will be wasted effort.</p><p>My two cents, get off my lawn, bla-ze bla-ze.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:0)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They are missing the point .
Unless you can have people typing in source for something that will make them say ohhhh and ahhhh after they execute what they typed.Typing in useful code for something that can balance a check book , or sort a telephone book in nlog n time will not be appreciated by so many people .
What you need is , to bring things down to earth , a book for some multimedia engine that has abstracted out the core functions of multimedia and have people code a demo or a playable game after they type in code .
Only then would you get younger generations of people interested in code.For an example of something eye catching see the productions by Future Crew http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future \ _Crew .
But these are only executed .
Still they provide the wonder of typing in lines and lines of code from byte or compute gazette ( Which I have done , thank you very much !
) because you have to put in some elbow grease and at the end you are rewarded for your efforts.Im sure the book will be useful to someone .
But unless the productions ( book,demos,code , whatever ) serve as a spring board to some thing else...It will be wasted effort.My two cents , get off my lawn , bla-ze bla-ze .
: 0 )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They are missing the point.
Unless you can have people typing in source for something that will make them say ohhhh and ahhhh after they execute what they typed.Typing in useful  code for something that can balance a check book, or sort a telephone book in nlog n time will not be appreciated by so many people.
What you need is, to bring things down to earth, a book for some multimedia engine that has abstracted out the core functions of multimedia and have people code a demo or a playable game after they type in code.
Only then would you get younger generations of people interested in code.For an example of something eye catching see the productions by Future Crew http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future\_Crew.
But these are only executed.
Still they provide the wonder of typing in lines and lines of code from byte or compute gazette (Which I have done, thank you very much!
) because you have to put in some elbow grease and at the end you are rewarded for your efforts.Im sure the book will be useful to someone.
But unless the productions (book,demos,code, whatever) serve as a spring board to some thing else...It will be wasted effort.My two cents, get off my lawn, bla-ze bla-ze.
:0)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680241</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681311</id>
	<title>Re:Start them on a tricycle? Or a GSXR?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247517420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You have to get the interest level up for kids first. Cooking is the same way. You may think boiling water is a rudimentary skill, but getting the kids to just follow directions completely by making Jello gets them on the road to understanding how to parse a recipe. Plus it holds their interest in the form of desert in an hour.</p><p>I think that is the same issue here.</p><p>On the other hand, being in the embedded world, I have had to work with to many people that were really accomplished CE grads that could code around me in a heartbeat at the level you describe, but would trip over scoping issues in embedded programming over and over and over again. They were great at riding wheelies on the motorcycle but kept falling off the tricycle.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You have to get the interest level up for kids first .
Cooking is the same way .
You may think boiling water is a rudimentary skill , but getting the kids to just follow directions completely by making Jello gets them on the road to understanding how to parse a recipe .
Plus it holds their interest in the form of desert in an hour.I think that is the same issue here.On the other hand , being in the embedded world , I have had to work with to many people that were really accomplished CE grads that could code around me in a heartbeat at the level you describe , but would trip over scoping issues in embedded programming over and over and over again .
They were great at riding wheelies on the motorcycle but kept falling off the tricycle .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You have to get the interest level up for kids first.
Cooking is the same way.
You may think boiling water is a rudimentary skill, but getting the kids to just follow directions completely by making Jello gets them on the road to understanding how to parse a recipe.
Plus it holds their interest in the form of desert in an hour.I think that is the same issue here.On the other hand, being in the embedded world, I have had to work with to many people that were really accomplished CE grads that could code around me in a heartbeat at the level you describe, but would trip over scoping issues in embedded programming over and over and over again.
They were great at riding wheelies on the motorcycle but kept falling off the tricycle.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680523</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28687885</id>
	<title>Re:Not Python!</title>
	<author>Haeleth</author>
	<datestamp>1247564400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Better question: Why not ?</p></div></blockquote><p>The use of indentation to define blocks (among other things) has forced a number of other undesirable constraints on program structure.  For example, it's the reason why a Python lambda is restricted to a single expression.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Better question : Why not ? The use of indentation to define blocks ( among other things ) has forced a number of other undesirable constraints on program structure .
For example , it 's the reason why a Python lambda is restricted to a single expression .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Better question: Why not ?The use of indentation to define blocks (among other things) has forced a number of other undesirable constraints on program structure.
For example, it's the reason why a Python lambda is restricted to a single expression.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681643</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680693</id>
	<title>Re:Thank you!</title>
	<author>symes</author>
	<datestamp>1247514840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>At the risk of being modded a troll...  I completely agree. I've been looking for something like this for my daughter for some time. She's nine, just got her first laptop (and old one, but decent enough) and is really taking an interest. I know that writing a simple game would give her a real buzz. Next stop Amazon.</htmltext>
<tokenext>At the risk of being modded a troll... I completely agree .
I 've been looking for something like this for my daughter for some time .
She 's nine , just got her first laptop ( and old one , but decent enough ) and is really taking an interest .
I know that writing a simple game would give her a real buzz .
Next stop Amazon .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At the risk of being modded a troll...  I completely agree.
I've been looking for something like this for my daughter for some time.
She's nine, just got her first laptop (and old one, but decent enough) and is really taking an interest.
I know that writing a simple game would give her a real buzz.
Next stop Amazon.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680141</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680137</id>
	<title>Google this!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247512620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I just downloaded Google Chrome 3.0.192.0 for Mac and it crashed before I could even open a page. There is no excuse for this; my <a href="http://support.apple.com/kb/SP506" title="apple.com" rel="nofollow">Mac</a> [apple.com] is perfect in every way with eight 2.93 GHz cores, 32 GB RAM, and a fresh install of <a href="http://www.apple.com/macosx/" title="apple.com" rel="nofollow">Mac OS X</a> [apple.com] Leopard v10.5.7.</p><p>And they want my personal data to help make their browser better? They should ask me that when it doesn't crash on launch.</p><p>Why is it that <a href="http://www.apple.com/" title="apple.com" rel="nofollow">Apple</a> [apple.com] and <a href="http://www.mozilla.com/" title="mozilla.com" rel="nofollow">Mozilla</a> [mozilla.com] can do this but <a href="http://www.google.com/" title="google.com" rel="nofollow">Google</a> [google.com] can't? I ran <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/default.aspx" title="microsoft.com" rel="nofollow">Internet Explorer 8</a> [microsoft.com] for months before its final release, <a href="http://www.trollaxor.com/2009/07/some-questions-comments-about-firefox.html" title="trollaxor.com" rel="nofollow">Firefox 3.5</a> [trollaxor.com] since its 3.1 days, and found Safari 4 Developer Preview more stable than Safari 3. In fact, <a href="http://www.webkit.org/" title="webkit.org" rel="nofollow">WebKit</a> [webkit.org] nightlies run circles around most websites with nary a freeze or crash. So what's with Google's Chrome?</p><p>What really baffles me, however, isn't the instability I've come to expect from Google, but that Google has the audacity to ask for personal user info to improve its browser. Is the search engine maker datamonger really so desperate for my private information that it's stooped to the level of Trojan horses to get it?</p><p>Everything Google does is just another way to sieve personal data away for targeting ads. This kind of Big Brother crap is more repulsive than the fat programmers that make it possible. Google, with its deep pockets and doctoral students, thinks that by holding user data hostage it can maneuver around Apple and <a href="http://www.micrsoft.com/" title="micrsoft.com" rel="nofollow">Microsoft</a> [micrsoft.com]. While this may be true, I'm not willing to be a part of it.</p><p>In using Google search, Ads, <a href="http://mail.google.com/" title="google.com" rel="nofollow">Gmail</a> [google.com], Chrome or whatever else the faceless robot of a company invents, the user is surrendering their personal information to a giant hivemind. No longer are their personal preferences some choice they make; they're a string of data processed by a Google algorithm: <i>Google dehumanizes its users!</i> </p><p>So while Google is arrogant enough to paint pretty Trojans to try to mine our browsing habits, the least they could do is make sure it doesn't crash. If Apple, Microsoft, and Mozilla can get their preview releases right, why can't Google? And they're going to come out with their own operating system?</p><p>Get real, Google! I'll use your crashing, sneaking, spyware when my Mac has gone dead and cold and I'm looking for handouts. Until then, quit the crashing and quit syphoning off my personal data!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I just downloaded Google Chrome 3.0.192.0 for Mac and it crashed before I could even open a page .
There is no excuse for this ; my Mac [ apple.com ] is perfect in every way with eight 2.93 GHz cores , 32 GB RAM , and a fresh install of Mac OS X [ apple.com ] Leopard v10.5.7.And they want my personal data to help make their browser better ?
They should ask me that when it does n't crash on launch.Why is it that Apple [ apple.com ] and Mozilla [ mozilla.com ] can do this but Google [ google.com ] ca n't ?
I ran Internet Explorer 8 [ microsoft.com ] for months before its final release , Firefox 3.5 [ trollaxor.com ] since its 3.1 days , and found Safari 4 Developer Preview more stable than Safari 3 .
In fact , WebKit [ webkit.org ] nightlies run circles around most websites with nary a freeze or crash .
So what 's with Google 's Chrome ? What really baffles me , however , is n't the instability I 've come to expect from Google , but that Google has the audacity to ask for personal user info to improve its browser .
Is the search engine maker datamonger really so desperate for my private information that it 's stooped to the level of Trojan horses to get it ? Everything Google does is just another way to sieve personal data away for targeting ads .
This kind of Big Brother crap is more repulsive than the fat programmers that make it possible .
Google , with its deep pockets and doctoral students , thinks that by holding user data hostage it can maneuver around Apple and Microsoft [ micrsoft.com ] .
While this may be true , I 'm not willing to be a part of it.In using Google search , Ads , Gmail [ google.com ] , Chrome or whatever else the faceless robot of a company invents , the user is surrendering their personal information to a giant hivemind .
No longer are their personal preferences some choice they make ; they 're a string of data processed by a Google algorithm : Google dehumanizes its users !
So while Google is arrogant enough to paint pretty Trojans to try to mine our browsing habits , the least they could do is make sure it does n't crash .
If Apple , Microsoft , and Mozilla can get their preview releases right , why ca n't Google ?
And they 're going to come out with their own operating system ? Get real , Google !
I 'll use your crashing , sneaking , spyware when my Mac has gone dead and cold and I 'm looking for handouts .
Until then , quit the crashing and quit syphoning off my personal data !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just downloaded Google Chrome 3.0.192.0 for Mac and it crashed before I could even open a page.
There is no excuse for this; my Mac [apple.com] is perfect in every way with eight 2.93 GHz cores, 32 GB RAM, and a fresh install of Mac OS X [apple.com] Leopard v10.5.7.And they want my personal data to help make their browser better?
They should ask me that when it doesn't crash on launch.Why is it that Apple [apple.com] and Mozilla [mozilla.com] can do this but Google [google.com] can't?
I ran Internet Explorer 8 [microsoft.com] for months before its final release, Firefox 3.5 [trollaxor.com] since its 3.1 days, and found Safari 4 Developer Preview more stable than Safari 3.
In fact, WebKit [webkit.org] nightlies run circles around most websites with nary a freeze or crash.
So what's with Google's Chrome?What really baffles me, however, isn't the instability I've come to expect from Google, but that Google has the audacity to ask for personal user info to improve its browser.
Is the search engine maker datamonger really so desperate for my private information that it's stooped to the level of Trojan horses to get it?Everything Google does is just another way to sieve personal data away for targeting ads.
This kind of Big Brother crap is more repulsive than the fat programmers that make it possible.
Google, with its deep pockets and doctoral students, thinks that by holding user data hostage it can maneuver around Apple and Microsoft [micrsoft.com].
While this may be true, I'm not willing to be a part of it.In using Google search, Ads, Gmail [google.com], Chrome or whatever else the faceless robot of a company invents, the user is surrendering their personal information to a giant hivemind.
No longer are their personal preferences some choice they make; they're a string of data processed by a Google algorithm: Google dehumanizes its users!
So while Google is arrogant enough to paint pretty Trojans to try to mine our browsing habits, the least they could do is make sure it doesn't crash.
If Apple, Microsoft, and Mozilla can get their preview releases right, why can't Google?
And they're going to come out with their own operating system?Get real, Google!
I'll use your crashing, sneaking, spyware when my Mac has gone dead and cold and I'm looking for handouts.
Until then, quit the crashing and quit syphoning off my personal data!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28684677</id>
	<title>Re:Not Python!</title>
	<author>Kingrames</author>
	<datestamp>1247490540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Real programmers program in whitespace and don't tell anyone.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Real programmers program in whitespace and do n't tell anyone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Real programmers program in whitespace and don't tell anyone.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681025</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680641</id>
	<title>Re:You missed the point of your own story</title>
	<author>ShieldW0lf</author>
	<datestamp>1247514480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Get em a RepRap.  Teach em to do 3D modeling, back off and let em make their own toys.  That's what I'm doing... my kid has already developed a bunch of toys and the circuit boards for our RepRap are in the mail.</p><p>As for teaching kids programming, I'd suggest starting with Scratch from MIT.  My daughter loves it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Get em a RepRap .
Teach em to do 3D modeling , back off and let em make their own toys .
That 's what I 'm doing... my kid has already developed a bunch of toys and the circuit boards for our RepRap are in the mail.As for teaching kids programming , I 'd suggest starting with Scratch from MIT .
My daughter loves it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get em a RepRap.
Teach em to do 3D modeling, back off and let em make their own toys.
That's what I'm doing... my kid has already developed a bunch of toys and the circuit boards for our RepRap are in the mail.As for teaching kids programming, I'd suggest starting with Scratch from MIT.
My daughter loves it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680361</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28684367</id>
	<title>Re:You missed the point of your own story</title>
	<author>blahplusplus</author>
	<datestamp>1247488740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>" Shouldn't you be trying to emulate your father by moving beyond your comfort zone and bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours?"</p><p>This is where I disagree somewhat, there are certain subjects that you would love to have been forced to take at a young age but you were not long lived enough and too new to the world to realize their importance.</p><p>My relative forced her kids all to go to music school and many ended up becoming musicians out of their own free will, even though early going they weren't so enthused but as they grew up they gained a lot of respect and appreciation for music.  Even if they do not get paid professionally to play their instruments they still enjoy it and believe it was an enriching experience that they will pass onto their own children.</p><p>Now the same is not true for all children obviously, some children would probably resent it but that's the risk you take as a parent for having lived longer and having more foresight of vision.</p><p>The idea that disciplining your kids into activities they may (at the time) not be interested is somehow immoral or wrong is incorrect, since kids do not have the life experience to make judgements and reflections about the things they *Regret* their parents *didn't teach them* in hindsight.  I'm sure many of us have had such occasions wishing our parents were better or were more clued in to their own wisdom, instead of letting the child (who has no lifetime of experiences and therefore foresight and judgement) do whatever it wants.</p><p>There's a balance between freedom, discipline, responsbility and enrichment and I think parents should take that part of themselves back as *the parent*.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Should n't you be trying to emulate your father by moving beyond your comfort zone and bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours ?
" This is where I disagree somewhat , there are certain subjects that you would love to have been forced to take at a young age but you were not long lived enough and too new to the world to realize their importance.My relative forced her kids all to go to music school and many ended up becoming musicians out of their own free will , even though early going they were n't so enthused but as they grew up they gained a lot of respect and appreciation for music .
Even if they do not get paid professionally to play their instruments they still enjoy it and believe it was an enriching experience that they will pass onto their own children.Now the same is not true for all children obviously , some children would probably resent it but that 's the risk you take as a parent for having lived longer and having more foresight of vision.The idea that disciplining your kids into activities they may ( at the time ) not be interested is somehow immoral or wrong is incorrect , since kids do not have the life experience to make judgements and reflections about the things they * Regret * their parents * did n't teach them * in hindsight .
I 'm sure many of us have had such occasions wishing our parents were better or were more clued in to their own wisdom , instead of letting the child ( who has no lifetime of experiences and therefore foresight and judgement ) do whatever it wants.There 's a balance between freedom , discipline , responsbility and enrichment and I think parents should take that part of themselves back as * the parent * .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>" Shouldn't you be trying to emulate your father by moving beyond your comfort zone and bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours?
"This is where I disagree somewhat, there are certain subjects that you would love to have been forced to take at a young age but you were not long lived enough and too new to the world to realize their importance.My relative forced her kids all to go to music school and many ended up becoming musicians out of their own free will, even though early going they weren't so enthused but as they grew up they gained a lot of respect and appreciation for music.
Even if they do not get paid professionally to play their instruments they still enjoy it and believe it was an enriching experience that they will pass onto their own children.Now the same is not true for all children obviously, some children would probably resent it but that's the risk you take as a parent for having lived longer and having more foresight of vision.The idea that disciplining your kids into activities they may (at the time) not be interested is somehow immoral or wrong is incorrect, since kids do not have the life experience to make judgements and reflections about the things they *Regret* their parents *didn't teach them* in hindsight.
I'm sure many of us have had such occasions wishing our parents were better or were more clued in to their own wisdom, instead of letting the child (who has no lifetime of experiences and therefore foresight and judgement) do whatever it wants.There's a balance between freedom, discipline, responsbility and enrichment and I think parents should take that part of themselves back as *the parent*.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680361</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680295</id>
	<title>I wish...</title>
	<author>plasmidmap</author>
	<datestamp>1247513100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That something like this had been around when I was a kid!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That something like this had been around when I was a kid !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That something like this had been around when I was a kid!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28687687</id>
	<title>Re:C is the only starting language</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1247562180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Start with C and a lack of <i>want</i> to understand will result.</p><p>C is one of the worst languages to start with. What it teaches you is frustration because you can't even begin to understand just WHY your programs don't run. What it teaches you is bad coding practice because it WILL accept almost any harebrained spaghetticode you cram down its compiler. And once you got used to 'if (i=a\%2)...' to test a for being odd or even and store that fact in i at the same time, so you can later just add/subtract i from something else, you are already lost. Not to mention the countless hours spent figuring out why 'if (i=5)' is always true even if i isn't 5, but oddly i is always 5 after the branch...</p><p>Start in something that enforces some strict rules while at the same time offers enough training wheels to enable you to <i>find</i> your bugs. C is very powerful indeed, but finding bugs can be a daunting task for an inexperienced programmer. And I'm not even talking about obscure run time bugs (like, say, buffer overflows because you count from 1 instead of 0) or bugs that don't show in the line where the actual problem resides.</p><p>Give your newbies a language that, while not powerful or fast, makes <i>debugging</i> easy. I have met a fair lot of programmers, and interesting how many of them lack in the debugging department. And don't say your programs have no bugs. That only means you never found them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Start with C and a lack of want to understand will result.C is one of the worst languages to start with .
What it teaches you is frustration because you ca n't even begin to understand just WHY your programs do n't run .
What it teaches you is bad coding practice because it WILL accept almost any harebrained spaghetticode you cram down its compiler .
And once you got used to 'if ( i = a \ % 2 ) ... ' to test a for being odd or even and store that fact in i at the same time , so you can later just add/subtract i from something else , you are already lost .
Not to mention the countless hours spent figuring out why 'if ( i = 5 ) ' is always true even if i is n't 5 , but oddly i is always 5 after the branch...Start in something that enforces some strict rules while at the same time offers enough training wheels to enable you to find your bugs .
C is very powerful indeed , but finding bugs can be a daunting task for an inexperienced programmer .
And I 'm not even talking about obscure run time bugs ( like , say , buffer overflows because you count from 1 instead of 0 ) or bugs that do n't show in the line where the actual problem resides.Give your newbies a language that , while not powerful or fast , makes debugging easy .
I have met a fair lot of programmers , and interesting how many of them lack in the debugging department .
And do n't say your programs have no bugs .
That only means you never found them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Start with C and a lack of want to understand will result.C is one of the worst languages to start with.
What it teaches you is frustration because you can't even begin to understand just WHY your programs don't run.
What it teaches you is bad coding practice because it WILL accept almost any harebrained spaghetticode you cram down its compiler.
And once you got used to 'if (i=a\%2)...' to test a for being odd or even and store that fact in i at the same time, so you can later just add/subtract i from something else, you are already lost.
Not to mention the countless hours spent figuring out why 'if (i=5)' is always true even if i isn't 5, but oddly i is always 5 after the branch...Start in something that enforces some strict rules while at the same time offers enough training wheels to enable you to find your bugs.
C is very powerful indeed, but finding bugs can be a daunting task for an inexperienced programmer.
And I'm not even talking about obscure run time bugs (like, say, buffer overflows because you count from 1 instead of 0) or bugs that don't show in the line where the actual problem resides.Give your newbies a language that, while not powerful or fast, makes debugging easy.
I have met a fair lot of programmers, and interesting how many of them lack in the debugging department.
And don't say your programs have no bugs.
That only means you never found them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680353</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28682011</id>
	<title>I didn't read to book, but...</title>
	<author>ratboot</author>
	<datestamp>1247476980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>Python was created from the start to be easy to learn</i>

But I think BASIC on VIC-20 was even easier to learn then Python : no need to use colons or indenting! And what about the dreaded ==, impossible to understant for a kid!

Mod me troll.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Python was created from the start to be easy to learn But I think BASIC on VIC-20 was even easier to learn then Python : no need to use colons or indenting !
And what about the dreaded = = , impossible to understant for a kid !
Mod me troll .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Python was created from the start to be easy to learn

But I think BASIC on VIC-20 was even easier to learn then Python : no need to use colons or indenting!
And what about the dreaded ==, impossible to understant for a kid!
Mod me troll.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28684061</id>
	<title>Re:You missed the point of your own story</title>
	<author>mdwh2</author>
	<datestamp>1247486760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What example of such a thing would there be today? I'm not saying there isn't one - but I can't think of one off hand. The new toys and gadgets like netbooks/phones/etc are just extensions of the computer (and unless you need portability, an ordinary computer is just as useful if not more practical).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What example of such a thing would there be today ?
I 'm not saying there is n't one - but I ca n't think of one off hand .
The new toys and gadgets like netbooks/phones/etc are just extensions of the computer ( and unless you need portability , an ordinary computer is just as useful if not more practical ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What example of such a thing would there be today?
I'm not saying there isn't one - but I can't think of one off hand.
The new toys and gadgets like netbooks/phones/etc are just extensions of the computer (and unless you need portability, an ordinary computer is just as useful if not more practical).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680361</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28682683</id>
	<title>Re:HTML/CSS/JavaScript</title>
	<author>Obfuscant</author>
	<datestamp>1247479920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Of the three you list, only the last is a programming language.<p>If you want create a web page designer, teach them HTML and CSS.</p><p>
If you want to create a programmer, teach them how to tear a complex problem apart into small bits that a computer can understand and then how to express those small bits to the computer -- in any language that doesn't have 500\% overhead or arbitrary interpretations based on things like how many spaces are in the line. The former rules out COBOL, the latter python.</p><p>
FORTH. Yes, you have to learn to think backwards, but it is SO easy to start with a small piece and add and combine them. Thinking backwards enforces decomposition of the process into small bits. In fact, LOGO, IIRC, was a very FORTH-like language that was intended for kids. "Move the turtle so many pixels up, turn so many degrees right..."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Of the three you list , only the last is a programming language.If you want create a web page designer , teach them HTML and CSS .
If you want to create a programmer , teach them how to tear a complex problem apart into small bits that a computer can understand and then how to express those small bits to the computer -- in any language that does n't have 500 \ % overhead or arbitrary interpretations based on things like how many spaces are in the line .
The former rules out COBOL , the latter python .
FORTH. Yes , you have to learn to think backwards , but it is SO easy to start with a small piece and add and combine them .
Thinking backwards enforces decomposition of the process into small bits .
In fact , LOGO , IIRC , was a very FORTH-like language that was intended for kids .
" Move the turtle so many pixels up , turn so many degrees right... "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of the three you list, only the last is a programming language.If you want create a web page designer, teach them HTML and CSS.
If you want to create a programmer, teach them how to tear a complex problem apart into small bits that a computer can understand and then how to express those small bits to the computer -- in any language that doesn't have 500\% overhead or arbitrary interpretations based on things like how many spaces are in the line.
The former rules out COBOL, the latter python.
FORTH. Yes, you have to learn to think backwards, but it is SO easy to start with a small piece and add and combine them.
Thinking backwards enforces decomposition of the process into small bits.
In fact, LOGO, IIRC, was a very FORTH-like language that was intended for kids.
"Move the turtle so many pixels up, turn so many degrees right..."</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681241</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681723</id>
	<title>Re:The beauty of this book</title>
	<author>Lurchicus</author>
	<datestamp>1247475720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Actually... Hello World of Warcraft would have the side effect that you're kids are guaranteed to be safe from pregnancy, STDs, or any form of social life.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually... Hello World of Warcraft would have the side effect that you 're kids are guaranteed to be safe from pregnancy , STDs , or any form of social life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually... Hello World of Warcraft would have the side effect that you're kids are guaranteed to be safe from pregnancy, STDs, or any form of social life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680565</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28797967</id>
	<title>Re:HTML/CSS/JavaScript</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1248376440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not as instant as interactive python in a terminal window:<br><tt><br>&gt;&gt;&gt; x = 3<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; y = x + 4<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; print x,y<br>3 7<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br></tt><br>http://www.astro.umd.edu/~chapman/python\_tutorial.html</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not as instant as interactive python in a terminal window : &gt; &gt; &gt; x = 3 &gt; &gt; &gt; y = x + 4 &gt; &gt; &gt; print x,y3 7 &gt; &gt; &gt; http : //www.astro.umd.edu/ ~ chapman/python \ _tutorial.html</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not as instant as interactive python in a terminal window:&gt;&gt;&gt; x = 3&gt;&gt;&gt; y = x + 4&gt;&gt;&gt; print x,y3 7&gt;&gt;&gt;http://www.astro.umd.edu/~chapman/python\_tutorial.html</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681241</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28682529</id>
	<title>Re:HTML/CSS/JavaScript</title>
	<author>RegularFry</author>
	<datestamp>1247479140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is, they're all broken. It's far harder than it should be to get anything meaningful done reliably and well in CSS and HTML, even if the specs were implemented properly. Javascript is hamstrung by crappy implementations with crappily pointless differences between them, and a crappy standard library. Don't get me started on the DOM API, that just makes me cry.</p><p>Really, the only advantage that HTML/CSS/Javascript has over Python is that every PC has an interpreter present out of the box, but given that if you're doing JS there's few tools better than Firebug, you've got installation to do anyway and you might as well just suck it up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is , they 're all broken .
It 's far harder than it should be to get anything meaningful done reliably and well in CSS and HTML , even if the specs were implemented properly .
Javascript is hamstrung by crappy implementations with crappily pointless differences between them , and a crappy standard library .
Do n't get me started on the DOM API , that just makes me cry.Really , the only advantage that HTML/CSS/Javascript has over Python is that every PC has an interpreter present out of the box , but given that if you 're doing JS there 's few tools better than Firebug , you 've got installation to do anyway and you might as well just suck it up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is, they're all broken.
It's far harder than it should be to get anything meaningful done reliably and well in CSS and HTML, even if the specs were implemented properly.
Javascript is hamstrung by crappy implementations with crappily pointless differences between them, and a crappy standard library.
Don't get me started on the DOM API, that just makes me cry.Really, the only advantage that HTML/CSS/Javascript has over Python is that every PC has an interpreter present out of the box, but given that if you're doing JS there's few tools better than Firebug, you've got installation to do anyway and you might as well just suck it up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681241</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680445</id>
	<title>Free alternative</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247513700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>There is a really nice, free alternative available in "How to think like a computer scientist". Despite the title, it's aimed regular school kids and is being used to teach a class on python programming. It's just come out in a second edition.

<a href="http://openbookproject.net//thinkCSpy/" title="openbookproject.net">http://openbookproject.net//thinkCSpy/</a> [openbookproject.net]</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is a really nice , free alternative available in " How to think like a computer scientist " .
Despite the title , it 's aimed regular school kids and is being used to teach a class on python programming .
It 's just come out in a second edition .
http : //openbookproject.net//thinkCSpy/ [ openbookproject.net ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is a really nice, free alternative available in "How to think like a computer scientist".
Despite the title, it's aimed regular school kids and is being used to teach a class on python programming.
It's just come out in a second edition.
http://openbookproject.net//thinkCSpy/ [openbookproject.net]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681269</id>
	<title>Re:Free alternative</title>
	<author>maxume</author>
	<datestamp>1247517240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It sounds to me like the reviewed book is aimed at 4th-5th-6th graders, and looking at the link, it looks like that book is mostly aimed at 9th-10th-11th graders.</p><p>(The younger kids will find the older book incredibly dry, and the older kids will find the younger book childish)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It sounds to me like the reviewed book is aimed at 4th-5th-6th graders , and looking at the link , it looks like that book is mostly aimed at 9th-10th-11th graders .
( The younger kids will find the older book incredibly dry , and the older kids will find the younger book childish )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It sounds to me like the reviewed book is aimed at 4th-5th-6th graders, and looking at the link, it looks like that book is mostly aimed at 9th-10th-11th graders.
(The younger kids will find the older book incredibly dry, and the older kids will find the younger book childish)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680445</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28682357</id>
	<title>Re:You missed the point of your own story</title>
	<author>Shawn Parr</author>
	<datestamp>1247478480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours?</p></div><p>Maybe he is just very subtle, and this is a stab against python....</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours ? Maybe he is just very subtle , and this is a stab against python... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> bringing home something that will inspire your kids to pursue their own interests rather than yours?Maybe he is just very subtle, and this is a stab against python....
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680361</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681643</id>
	<title>Re:Not Python!</title>
	<author>SlashV</author>
	<datestamp>1247518620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Why, Lord, Oh why are blocks defined by indentation!</p></div><p>Better question: Why not ?<br>
I suppose you indent your code anyway. In that case, the braces, begin..ends and whatnots are only syntax clutter.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why , Lord , Oh why are blocks defined by indentation ! Better question : Why not ?
I suppose you indent your code anyway .
In that case , the braces , begin..ends and whatnots are only syntax clutter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why, Lord, Oh why are blocks defined by indentation!Better question: Why not ?
I suppose you indent your code anyway.
In that case, the braces, begin..ends and whatnots are only syntax clutter.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680547</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28683279</id>
	<title>Re:Thank you!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247482380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My kids love Scratch from MIT</p><p><a href="http://scratch.mit.edu/" title="mit.edu" rel="nofollow">http://scratch.mit.edu/</a> [mit.edu]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My kids love Scratch from MIThttp : //scratch.mit.edu/ [ mit.edu ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My kids love Scratch from MIThttp://scratch.mit.edu/ [mit.edu]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680141</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681307</id>
	<title>Re:Expectations of today's 11 year old different</title>
	<author>AdamWeeden</author>
	<datestamp>1247517420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>If that is the case, I would HIGHLY recommend you get him started on <a href="http://www.kongregate.com/labs" title="kongregate.com">Kongregate Labs' Shootorial</a> [kongregate.com].  It is essentially a tutorial on how to make a side scrolling shooter in Flash from the ground up.  It starts out basic but introduces concepts like logic and hit boundaries and other things that actually require code.  Hope he enjoys it!</htmltext>
<tokenext>If that is the case , I would HIGHLY recommend you get him started on Kongregate Labs ' Shootorial [ kongregate.com ] .
It is essentially a tutorial on how to make a side scrolling shooter in Flash from the ground up .
It starts out basic but introduces concepts like logic and hit boundaries and other things that actually require code .
Hope he enjoys it !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If that is the case, I would HIGHLY recommend you get him started on Kongregate Labs' Shootorial [kongregate.com].
It is essentially a tutorial on how to make a side scrolling shooter in Flash from the ground up.
It starts out basic but introduces concepts like logic and hit boundaries and other things that actually require code.
Hope he enjoys it!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28680775</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28684171</id>
	<title>Re:Question for the OP</title>
	<author>diggitzz</author>
	<datestamp>1247487360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Best results might come from doing this with "Hello World", as well as doing similar activities with art, music, physics, language, and sports, in equal proportions.</p></div></blockquote><p>

Computer programming offers the ability for a child to explore at least the theoretical foundations of every discipline known to man.  She can program musical ensembles with tones, harmonics, and rhythms, she can create graphic art and learn about color, light, motion, and composition, she can write games and calculate sports plays, and honestly are physics and math really questionable in the domain of programming? When I was 9, the first thing I did once comfortable in BASIC was to grab my dad's star charts and start writing up a solar system simulator, purely out of interest in physics, math, and astronomy! Programming is a tool for exploration... you're basically handing them the keys to the imaginable universe!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Best results might come from doing this with " Hello World " , as well as doing similar activities with art , music , physics , language , and sports , in equal proportions .
Computer programming offers the ability for a child to explore at least the theoretical foundations of every discipline known to man .
She can program musical ensembles with tones , harmonics , and rhythms , she can create graphic art and learn about color , light , motion , and composition , she can write games and calculate sports plays , and honestly are physics and math really questionable in the domain of programming ?
When I was 9 , the first thing I did once comfortable in BASIC was to grab my dad 's star charts and start writing up a solar system simulator , purely out of interest in physics , math , and astronomy !
Programming is a tool for exploration... you 're basically handing them the keys to the imaginable universe !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Best results might come from doing this with "Hello World", as well as doing similar activities with art, music, physics, language, and sports, in equal proportions.
Computer programming offers the ability for a child to explore at least the theoretical foundations of every discipline known to man.
She can program musical ensembles with tones, harmonics, and rhythms, she can create graphic art and learn about color, light, motion, and composition, she can write games and calculate sports plays, and honestly are physics and math really questionable in the domain of programming?
When I was 9, the first thing I did once comfortable in BASIC was to grab my dad's star charts and start writing up a solar system simulator, purely out of interest in physics, math, and astronomy!
Programming is a tool for exploration... you're basically handing them the keys to the imaginable universe!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_13_1349203.28681061</parent>
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