<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_07_11_1555235</id>
	<title>Developer Stigma After a Bad Or Catastrophic Release?</title>
	<author>Soulskill</author>
	<datestamp>1247329680000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>An anonymous reader writes <i>"We hear in the news all the time about how executives can drive a company into the ground and yet somehow become <em>more</em> desirable to other big companies. What we don't hear about are the grunts who implemented those decisions, and whether or not they end up resume-stained or blacklisted. Since we've got so many developers with lots of time in the trenches, I thought I would appeal to their experience. When disaster looms and sales starts pushing for development that has little chance but to end in disaster, what happens to the programmer who decides he needs his job enough to follow orders? Have they ever become unhireable?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>An anonymous reader writes " We hear in the news all the time about how executives can drive a company into the ground and yet somehow become more desirable to other big companies .
What we do n't hear about are the grunts who implemented those decisions , and whether or not they end up resume-stained or blacklisted .
Since we 've got so many developers with lots of time in the trenches , I thought I would appeal to their experience .
When disaster looms and sales starts pushing for development that has little chance but to end in disaster , what happens to the programmer who decides he needs his job enough to follow orders ?
Have they ever become unhireable ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An anonymous reader writes "We hear in the news all the time about how executives can drive a company into the ground and yet somehow become more desirable to other big companies.
What we don't hear about are the grunts who implemented those decisions, and whether or not they end up resume-stained or blacklisted.
Since we've got so many developers with lots of time in the trenches, I thought I would appeal to their experience.
When disaster looms and sales starts pushing for development that has little chance but to end in disaster, what happens to the programmer who decides he needs his job enough to follow orders?
Have they ever become unhireable?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28675799</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe for some employers but probably not for m</title>
	<author>PK\_ERTW</author>
	<datestamp>1247497980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>the crew of the Challenger disaster </p></div><p>If you are that involved in a project that failed in such a spectacular fasion, I suspect you are not putting anything on your resume.</p><p>
A current C.V. is one of the least of your new set of problems.</p><p>

PK</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>the crew of the Challenger disaster If you are that involved in a project that failed in such a spectacular fasion , I suspect you are not putting anything on your resume .
A current C.V. is one of the least of your new set of problems .
PK</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the crew of the Challenger disaster If you are that involved in a project that failed in such a spectacular fasion, I suspect you are not putting anything on your resume.
A current C.V. is one of the least of your new set of problems.
PK
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661125</id>
	<title>Re:Don't Worry!</title>
	<author>mysidia</author>
	<datestamp>1247334600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Yes, but the project managers who made all the decisions about what Vista would be may not be in for such luck.
</p><p>
Not everyone on a development team is equally to blame for a project's overall failure.
</p><p>
e.g.  Development members basically have to rely on other teams and co-workers on their own team to do their jobs correctly.
</p><p>
You may be assigned to do X.   But when the overall project is completed, X and Y need to be combined in some manner.
</p><p>
If X's design handed down by the architecture team is horrible, or  Y's code is a piece of junk,  developers of X can't help that,  the best they can do is implement the vision and assignments handed down by the project leadership as correctly and effectively as possible.
</p><p>
I won't blame the team who built the new start menu programming in Vista for the Aero team's poor choice of theme changes.
</p><p>
I won't blame the theme designers for the poor choices of changes to 'control panel', and how, you need 7 clicks now, through non-obvious choices, to assign a static IP to a NIC.
</p><p>
For the most part, no individual developer is responsible for the disaster, except the leadership of the project,  and the people who actually had input or opportunity to provide input into the major decisions that made Vista so undesirable.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , but the project managers who made all the decisions about what Vista would be may not be in for such luck .
Not everyone on a development team is equally to blame for a project 's overall failure .
e.g. Development members basically have to rely on other teams and co-workers on their own team to do their jobs correctly .
You may be assigned to do X. But when the overall project is completed , X and Y need to be combined in some manner .
If X 's design handed down by the architecture team is horrible , or Y 's code is a piece of junk , developers of X ca n't help that , the best they can do is implement the vision and assignments handed down by the project leadership as correctly and effectively as possible .
I wo n't blame the team who built the new start menu programming in Vista for the Aero team 's poor choice of theme changes .
I wo n't blame the theme designers for the poor choices of changes to 'control panel ' , and how , you need 7 clicks now , through non-obvious choices , to assign a static IP to a NIC .
For the most part , no individual developer is responsible for the disaster , except the leadership of the project , and the people who actually had input or opportunity to provide input into the major decisions that made Vista so undesirable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Yes, but the project managers who made all the decisions about what Vista would be may not be in for such luck.
Not everyone on a development team is equally to blame for a project's overall failure.
e.g.  Development members basically have to rely on other teams and co-workers on their own team to do their jobs correctly.
You may be assigned to do X.   But when the overall project is completed, X and Y need to be combined in some manner.
If X's design handed down by the architecture team is horrible, or  Y's code is a piece of junk,  developers of X can't help that,  the best they can do is implement the vision and assignments handed down by the project leadership as correctly and effectively as possible.
I won't blame the team who built the new start menu programming in Vista for the Aero team's poor choice of theme changes.
I won't blame the theme designers for the poor choices of changes to 'control panel', and how, you need 7 clicks now, through non-obvious choices, to assign a static IP to a NIC.
For the most part, no individual developer is responsible for the disaster, except the leadership of the project,  and the people who actually had input or opportunity to provide input into the major decisions that made Vista so undesirable.
</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28660965</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28665313</id>
	<title>Re:What I'd do</title>
	<author>chez69</author>
	<datestamp>1247332320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Folks that quit in the middle of things are quitters.  I wouldn't hire somebody who didn't want to be part of the solution, they'd bail on me as soon as things where boring.</p><p>Why would I want to work with somebody who can't stand adversity?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Folks that quit in the middle of things are quitters .
I would n't hire somebody who did n't want to be part of the solution , they 'd bail on me as soon as things where boring.Why would I want to work with somebody who ca n't stand adversity ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Folks that quit in the middle of things are quitters.
I wouldn't hire somebody who didn't want to be part of the solution, they'd bail on me as soon as things where boring.Why would I want to work with somebody who can't stand adversity?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661759</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662005</id>
	<title>The Punishment Should Fit the Crime</title>
	<author>curmudgeon99</author>
	<datestamp>1247341440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Over the years, I have worked on hundreds of IT projects. I encountered many flawed processes.</p><p>I worked for a company that had just decided to use UML and so we were forced to spend months constructing UML diagrams that <i>mostly</i> were a waste of time. Eventually, we made our business folks master the verbal-only [no stick men] use case model and that worked.</p><p>I worked on another project where the business people were so involved they made technology decisons and were even standing over the backs of developers ordering 'for' or 'while' loops. (Not to me, thankfully).</p><p>I've also worked on perfectly tuned agile teams that had a tight PM daily accountability in standups, and that was stressful but also tremendously productive.</p><p> <b>Let The Punishment Fit the Crime</b></p><p>Project fails because business interfered? Hold the head of the business team responsible.</p><p>Project fails because the software is buggy? Hold the head of QA accountable. Also maybe the architect or lead developer, who of course will be only too glad to point out the sloppy developer who did the work.</p><p>Project fails because the design is stupid or flawed in some other way? Hold the designers accountable.</p><p>So, I hope you see my point: if you were part of a project or product that became infamous--your punishment should fit your crime. If you were only a grunt developer implementing a design blessed by the architect and tech lead and designed by the business folks--then hell no, you should not also be accountable. You were doing your job. The junior developer can honestly say that but only if that developer's superiors are being held accountable.</p><p>So, if you're the original developer of AIG's Credit-Default Swap software, I would not hold you accountable for the damage done by those "financial instruments" (<i>another name for a stick you would use to dig peanuts out of shit<i>). The architects of this software and the business folks who designed it should be held accountable.)</i></i></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Over the years , I have worked on hundreds of IT projects .
I encountered many flawed processes.I worked for a company that had just decided to use UML and so we were forced to spend months constructing UML diagrams that mostly were a waste of time .
Eventually , we made our business folks master the verbal-only [ no stick men ] use case model and that worked.I worked on another project where the business people were so involved they made technology decisons and were even standing over the backs of developers ordering 'for ' or 'while ' loops .
( Not to me , thankfully ) .I 've also worked on perfectly tuned agile teams that had a tight PM daily accountability in standups , and that was stressful but also tremendously productive .
Let The Punishment Fit the CrimeProject fails because business interfered ?
Hold the head of the business team responsible.Project fails because the software is buggy ?
Hold the head of QA accountable .
Also maybe the architect or lead developer , who of course will be only too glad to point out the sloppy developer who did the work.Project fails because the design is stupid or flawed in some other way ?
Hold the designers accountable.So , I hope you see my point : if you were part of a project or product that became infamous--your punishment should fit your crime .
If you were only a grunt developer implementing a design blessed by the architect and tech lead and designed by the business folks--then hell no , you should not also be accountable .
You were doing your job .
The junior developer can honestly say that but only if that developer 's superiors are being held accountable.So , if you 're the original developer of AIG 's Credit-Default Swap software , I would not hold you accountable for the damage done by those " financial instruments " ( another name for a stick you would use to dig peanuts out of shit ) .
The architects of this software and the business folks who designed it should be held accountable .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Over the years, I have worked on hundreds of IT projects.
I encountered many flawed processes.I worked for a company that had just decided to use UML and so we were forced to spend months constructing UML diagrams that mostly were a waste of time.
Eventually, we made our business folks master the verbal-only [no stick men] use case model and that worked.I worked on another project where the business people were so involved they made technology decisons and were even standing over the backs of developers ordering 'for' or 'while' loops.
(Not to me, thankfully).I've also worked on perfectly tuned agile teams that had a tight PM daily accountability in standups, and that was stressful but also tremendously productive.
Let The Punishment Fit the CrimeProject fails because business interfered?
Hold the head of the business team responsible.Project fails because the software is buggy?
Hold the head of QA accountable.
Also maybe the architect or lead developer, who of course will be only too glad to point out the sloppy developer who did the work.Project fails because the design is stupid or flawed in some other way?
Hold the designers accountable.So, I hope you see my point: if you were part of a project or product that became infamous--your punishment should fit your crime.
If you were only a grunt developer implementing a design blessed by the architect and tech lead and designed by the business folks--then hell no, you should not also be accountable.
You were doing your job.
The junior developer can honestly say that but only if that developer's superiors are being held accountable.So, if you're the original developer of AIG's Credit-Default Swap software, I would not hold you accountable for the damage done by those "financial instruments" (another name for a stick you would use to dig peanuts out of shit).
The architects of this software and the business folks who designed it should be held accountable.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661001</id>
	<title>What I'd do</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247333880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>First of all, if you say at your next job interview "I worked on \_\_\_\_\_" they won't know what the hell you're talking about.  Even IT people don't know about every single software solution ever made and how it performed.  The odds that they'll have any idea what you're talking about is non-existant unless you worked on Vista or something.<br>
But if you are working on some super high profile project like for Microsoft or Facebook or something, you'll definitely want to quit BEFORE the project is even close to done.  If you know it's idiotic and as soon as it's done  it's a disaster and the execs all blame you for their own stupid idea and fire you, well then you're out of a job anyway. So beat them to it and quit!  But before you do, tell the higher ups that you refuse to work on a project that pointless and wrong because of what it'll do to your career.  Tell them if they don't let you make the major changes you know it needs or cancel the project, you quit.  Usually they'll just tell you to quit but who knows, it might get you somewhere.</htmltext>
<tokenext>First of all , if you say at your next job interview " I worked on \ _ \ _ \ _ \ _ \ _ " they wo n't know what the hell you 're talking about .
Even IT people do n't know about every single software solution ever made and how it performed .
The odds that they 'll have any idea what you 're talking about is non-existant unless you worked on Vista or something .
But if you are working on some super high profile project like for Microsoft or Facebook or something , you 'll definitely want to quit BEFORE the project is even close to done .
If you know it 's idiotic and as soon as it 's done it 's a disaster and the execs all blame you for their own stupid idea and fire you , well then you 're out of a job anyway .
So beat them to it and quit !
But before you do , tell the higher ups that you refuse to work on a project that pointless and wrong because of what it 'll do to your career .
Tell them if they do n't let you make the major changes you know it needs or cancel the project , you quit .
Usually they 'll just tell you to quit but who knows , it might get you somewhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First of all, if you say at your next job interview "I worked on \_\_\_\_\_" they won't know what the hell you're talking about.
Even IT people don't know about every single software solution ever made and how it performed.
The odds that they'll have any idea what you're talking about is non-existant unless you worked on Vista or something.
But if you are working on some super high profile project like for Microsoft or Facebook or something, you'll definitely want to quit BEFORE the project is even close to done.
If you know it's idiotic and as soon as it's done  it's a disaster and the execs all blame you for their own stupid idea and fire you, well then you're out of a job anyway.
So beat them to it and quit!
But before you do, tell the higher ups that you refuse to work on a project that pointless and wrong because of what it'll do to your career.
Tell them if they don't let you make the major changes you know it needs or cancel the project, you quit.
Usually they'll just tell you to quit but who knows, it might get you somewhere.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28664759</id>
	<title>Consultant</title>
	<author>DrugCheese</author>
	<datestamp>1247322960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work on a lot of projects where my clients want to go one way (the wrong way) although I plead with them to go the other. In the end they're paying me so I usually do what they want. After time they learn to compromise, mostly because of future costs<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... mostly.</p><p>I have plenty of good projects with good outcomes. If you can't sell yourself or your opinions, then you'll probably be put in more positions where your better judgment tells you what you're doing is wrong.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work on a lot of projects where my clients want to go one way ( the wrong way ) although I plead with them to go the other .
In the end they 're paying me so I usually do what they want .
After time they learn to compromise , mostly because of future costs ... mostly.I have plenty of good projects with good outcomes .
If you ca n't sell yourself or your opinions , then you 'll probably be put in more positions where your better judgment tells you what you 're doing is wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work on a lot of projects where my clients want to go one way (the wrong way) although I plead with them to go the other.
In the end they're paying me so I usually do what they want.
After time they learn to compromise, mostly because of future costs ... mostly.I have plenty of good projects with good outcomes.
If you can't sell yourself or your opinions, then you'll probably be put in more positions where your better judgment tells you what you're doing is wrong.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28660991</id>
	<title>People change jobs all the time</title>
	<author>flyingfsck</author>
	<datestamp>1247333760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Bad programmers move on to do other things.  A guy may suck at programming and be perfectly fine in IT doing maintenance, or in an over priced big box electronics store selling some new electronic pieces of shit.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Bad programmers move on to do other things .
A guy may suck at programming and be perfectly fine in IT doing maintenance , or in an over priced big box electronics store selling some new electronic pieces of shit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bad programmers move on to do other things.
A guy may suck at programming and be perfectly fine in IT doing maintenance, or in an over priced big box electronics store selling some new electronic pieces of shit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661919</id>
	<title>Re:People change jobs all the time</title>
	<author>TheMCP</author>
	<datestamp>1247340780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> Bad programmers move on to do other things.</p></div></blockquote><p>Except when they don't. I've seen bad programmers who simply move from job to job, doing incompetent work until their employer catches on and gets rid of them.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Bad programmers move on to do other things.Except when they do n't .
I 've seen bad programmers who simply move from job to job , doing incompetent work until their employer catches on and gets rid of them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Bad programmers move on to do other things.Except when they don't.
I've seen bad programmers who simply move from job to job, doing incompetent work until their employer catches on and gets rid of them.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28660991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28694073</id>
	<title>Re:No excuse.</title>
	<author>ivan256</author>
	<datestamp>1247598960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most (the vast majority) Open Source software never has its source code looked at by anybody but the original developer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most ( the vast majority ) Open Source software never has its source code looked at by anybody but the original developer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most (the vast majority) Open Source software never has its source code looked at by anybody but the original developer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28663953</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661163</id>
	<title>Secretly an SCO thread!</title>
	<author>symbolset</author>
	<datestamp>1247334720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Because who would want to hire the last few software engineers who stayed there through to the last?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Because who would want to hire the last few software engineers who stayed there through to the last ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because who would want to hire the last few software engineers who stayed there through to the last?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28728213</id>
	<title>Just get a job in the UK's Public Sector</title>
	<author>DevLifeRant</author>
	<datestamp>1247838060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The public sector in the UK has a track record of failed projects. All they seem to want is developers who are used to such hardship and bad practice so they can take them on and not rock the boat. devliferant.blogspot.com has lot's of background information on this subject.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The public sector in the UK has a track record of failed projects .
All they seem to want is developers who are used to such hardship and bad practice so they can take them on and not rock the boat .
devliferant.blogspot.com has lot 's of background information on this subject .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The public sector in the UK has a track record of failed projects.
All they seem to want is developers who are used to such hardship and bad practice so they can take them on and not rock the boat.
devliferant.blogspot.com has lot's of background information on this subject.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28663719</id>
	<title>If you go into your boss...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247310720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;...and refuse to do work you'll get fired for insubordination.<br>Or possibly for sexual harassment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; ...and refuse to do work you 'll get fired for insubordination.Or possibly for sexual harassment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;...and refuse to do work you'll get fired for insubordination.Or possibly for sexual harassment.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661165</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28663509</id>
	<title>Re:What I'd do</title>
	<author>cerberusss</author>
	<datestamp>1247309040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>"I wanted to work on a project that was going to be successful, and I left when I became convinced that I couldn't contribute effectively given the current set up."</p><p>Make sure you're professional enough to talk about these things without badmouthing co-workers or sounding like a legend-in-your-own-mind, but other than that you're fine</p></div><p>I thought about what is different between the message you're giving and the GP his version of the message. Both basically say the same, but your version is better.</p><p>GP says: "They did such-and-such, which I suggested they fix. But they just kept doing it. So I threatened with this-and-that, then took off before they could blame me." Lots of THEY in that sentence, says basically: blames other people, not in control.</p><p>Then I realized your version is better because it is said from the first-person. In other words: "I wanted such-and-such, but I felt this-and-that, so I did action-such." It shows that you knew to listen to your instincts, and did what was in your power.</p><p>Something to be learned from that.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" I wanted to work on a project that was going to be successful , and I left when I became convinced that I could n't contribute effectively given the current set up .
" Make sure you 're professional enough to talk about these things without badmouthing co-workers or sounding like a legend-in-your-own-mind , but other than that you 're fineI thought about what is different between the message you 're giving and the GP his version of the message .
Both basically say the same , but your version is better.GP says : " They did such-and-such , which I suggested they fix .
But they just kept doing it .
So I threatened with this-and-that , then took off before they could blame me .
" Lots of THEY in that sentence , says basically : blames other people , not in control.Then I realized your version is better because it is said from the first-person .
In other words : " I wanted such-and-such , but I felt this-and-that , so I did action-such .
" It shows that you knew to listen to your instincts , and did what was in your power.Something to be learned from that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I wanted to work on a project that was going to be successful, and I left when I became convinced that I couldn't contribute effectively given the current set up.
"Make sure you're professional enough to talk about these things without badmouthing co-workers or sounding like a legend-in-your-own-mind, but other than that you're fineI thought about what is different between the message you're giving and the GP his version of the message.
Both basically say the same, but your version is better.GP says: "They did such-and-such, which I suggested they fix.
But they just kept doing it.
So I threatened with this-and-that, then took off before they could blame me.
" Lots of THEY in that sentence, says basically: blames other people, not in control.Then I realized your version is better because it is said from the first-person.
In other words: "I wanted such-and-such, but I felt this-and-that, so I did action-such.
" It shows that you knew to listen to your instincts, and did what was in your power.Something to be learned from that.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661759</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662291</id>
	<title>Access Your Position, Not Your History</title>
	<author>LifesABeach</author>
	<datestamp>1247343240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"You can only negotiate from a power position."  Were the words told to me by another senior level programmer when I naively ask the same question.  Sometimes it's is better to be known for other things than your job history.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" You can only negotiate from a power position .
" Were the words told to me by another senior level programmer when I naively ask the same question .
Sometimes it 's is better to be known for other things than your job history .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"You can only negotiate from a power position.
"  Were the words told to me by another senior level programmer when I naively ask the same question.
Sometimes it's is better to be known for other things than your job history.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662547</id>
	<title>i worked on amiga os 2.0</title>
	<author>ifeelswine</author>
	<datestamp>1247344800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>and it has haunted me to this day.

i do not go outside for fear that someone will recognize me.</htmltext>
<tokenext>and it has haunted me to this day .
i do not go outside for fear that someone will recognize me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and it has haunted me to this day.
i do not go outside for fear that someone will recognize me.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661923</id>
	<title>Re:In my experience, no.</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1247340780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I very much doubt that. Because other than for us, they do not get punished for it. They usually get large compensations, and leave with a nice reference, shortly before everything crashes. Usually, all the blame then goes to the "end game" manager, who "ran this successful business down so quickly". That "end game" manager usually is a promoted straw-man from a lower level.</p><p>So they learn the opposite of what we developers learn. They learn that you can make good money with it, and apply for an even bigger job in the next company.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)<br>I've seen it myself many times. I always hoped that I just had bad luck with my jobs. But I was not the only one with stories like this. And after all, Dilbert wasn't such a big success in our circles for nothing.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I very much doubt that .
Because other than for us , they do not get punished for it .
They usually get large compensations , and leave with a nice reference , shortly before everything crashes .
Usually , all the blame then goes to the " end game " manager , who " ran this successful business down so quickly " .
That " end game " manager usually is a promoted straw-man from a lower level.So they learn the opposite of what we developers learn .
They learn that you can make good money with it , and apply for an even bigger job in the next company .
: ) I 've seen it myself many times .
I always hoped that I just had bad luck with my jobs .
But I was not the only one with stories like this .
And after all , Dilbert was n't such a big success in our circles for nothing .
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I very much doubt that.
Because other than for us, they do not get punished for it.
They usually get large compensations, and leave with a nice reference, shortly before everything crashes.
Usually, all the blame then goes to the "end game" manager, who "ran this successful business down so quickly".
That "end game" manager usually is a promoted straw-man from a lower level.So they learn the opposite of what we developers learn.
They learn that you can make good money with it, and apply for an even bigger job in the next company.
:)I've seen it myself many times.
I always hoped that I just had bad luck with my jobs.
But I was not the only one with stories like this.
And after all, Dilbert wasn't such a big success in our circles for nothing.
;)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661205</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661165</id>
	<title>Re:What I'd do</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247334780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>tell the higher ups that you refuse to work on a project that pointless and wrong because of what it'll do to your career</p></div><p>
I guarantee that if you go into your boss and refuse to do work you'll get fired for insubordination.  In addition, bringing up your "career" is bound to send a pretty strong signal to your boss that you don't plan on working there very far into the future.  If the place sucks to work at, polish your resume/CV and start making yourself known to other companies.  Don't sabotage yourself by pissing off your boss, thus ensuring a negative reference from your previous employer.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>tell the higher ups that you refuse to work on a project that pointless and wrong because of what it 'll do to your career I guarantee that if you go into your boss and refuse to do work you 'll get fired for insubordination .
In addition , bringing up your " career " is bound to send a pretty strong signal to your boss that you do n't plan on working there very far into the future .
If the place sucks to work at , polish your resume/CV and start making yourself known to other companies .
Do n't sabotage yourself by pissing off your boss , thus ensuring a negative reference from your previous employer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>tell the higher ups that you refuse to work on a project that pointless and wrong because of what it'll do to your career
I guarantee that if you go into your boss and refuse to do work you'll get fired for insubordination.
In addition, bringing up your "career" is bound to send a pretty strong signal to your boss that you don't plan on working there very far into the future.
If the place sucks to work at, polish your resume/CV and start making yourself known to other companies.
Don't sabotage yourself by pissing off your boss, thus ensuring a negative reference from your previous employer.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661001</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662741</id>
	<title>Don't worry ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247303160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Bad programming isn't always punished.  And if you look at how this place is running, one might conclude bad programming is seldom, if ever, punished.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Bad programming is n't always punished .
And if you look at how this place is running , one might conclude bad programming is seldom , if ever , punished .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bad programming isn't always punished.
And if you look at how this place is running, one might conclude bad programming is seldom, if ever, punished.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661683</id>
	<title>Re:I cant imagine Windows ME is a great career boo</title>
	<author>Bigjeff5</author>
	<datestamp>1247338800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Only 30\% of IT projects succeed in meeting their original goals of time, cost, scope, or quality.  In this sense 70\% are "failures".</p><p>Nobody gets a bad reputation that "fails" if the project meets the needs of the company/client.  Projects that fail completely are generally run poorly, and developer's reputations are not tarnished.  Frankly, only an idiot would blame the developer unless they did a piss-poor job.  But if that were the case, said developer would have been canned from the project and a new developer would be brought in.  THAT looks bad.  Finishing a project, no matter how rediculous or terrible it seems to you the developer, rarely has a negative impact.  Even if a project gets canceled, it is more likely to affect the project manager's reputation or the reputation of whoever initiated the project.</p><p>Again, developers who do a poor enough job to be assigned blame for a project - unless it is a company full of asshats - are usually canned and replaced mid-project.  If that didn't happen to you, you should not have a problem, and you could even use it to your advantage in your next job interview.  Blame for these types of things are generally an internal company sort of thing, they rarely spread outside the company except for a few industries.</p><p>Quitting for anything other than ethical reasons or reasons that are completely unrelated to the job itself would probably tarnish your reputation if you brought it up in an interview.  In that case, you should just forget it ever happened.  It shouldn't come up unless they go digging for it, and they won't be able to get anything negative relating specific to you unless you specifically made the news somehow.  In that case, be honest about your role in the project and be honest about what happened.  Unless of course it was your fault the whole thing failed.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Only 30 \ % of IT projects succeed in meeting their original goals of time , cost , scope , or quality .
In this sense 70 \ % are " failures " .Nobody gets a bad reputation that " fails " if the project meets the needs of the company/client .
Projects that fail completely are generally run poorly , and developer 's reputations are not tarnished .
Frankly , only an idiot would blame the developer unless they did a piss-poor job .
But if that were the case , said developer would have been canned from the project and a new developer would be brought in .
THAT looks bad .
Finishing a project , no matter how rediculous or terrible it seems to you the developer , rarely has a negative impact .
Even if a project gets canceled , it is more likely to affect the project manager 's reputation or the reputation of whoever initiated the project.Again , developers who do a poor enough job to be assigned blame for a project - unless it is a company full of asshats - are usually canned and replaced mid-project .
If that did n't happen to you , you should not have a problem , and you could even use it to your advantage in your next job interview .
Blame for these types of things are generally an internal company sort of thing , they rarely spread outside the company except for a few industries.Quitting for anything other than ethical reasons or reasons that are completely unrelated to the job itself would probably tarnish your reputation if you brought it up in an interview .
In that case , you should just forget it ever happened .
It should n't come up unless they go digging for it , and they wo n't be able to get anything negative relating specific to you unless you specifically made the news somehow .
In that case , be honest about your role in the project and be honest about what happened .
Unless of course it was your fault the whole thing failed .
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only 30\% of IT projects succeed in meeting their original goals of time, cost, scope, or quality.
In this sense 70\% are "failures".Nobody gets a bad reputation that "fails" if the project meets the needs of the company/client.
Projects that fail completely are generally run poorly, and developer's reputations are not tarnished.
Frankly, only an idiot would blame the developer unless they did a piss-poor job.
But if that were the case, said developer would have been canned from the project and a new developer would be brought in.
THAT looks bad.
Finishing a project, no matter how rediculous or terrible it seems to you the developer, rarely has a negative impact.
Even if a project gets canceled, it is more likely to affect the project manager's reputation or the reputation of whoever initiated the project.Again, developers who do a poor enough job to be assigned blame for a project - unless it is a company full of asshats - are usually canned and replaced mid-project.
If that didn't happen to you, you should not have a problem, and you could even use it to your advantage in your next job interview.
Blame for these types of things are generally an internal company sort of thing, they rarely spread outside the company except for a few industries.Quitting for anything other than ethical reasons or reasons that are completely unrelated to the job itself would probably tarnish your reputation if you brought it up in an interview.
In that case, you should just forget it ever happened.
It shouldn't come up unless they go digging for it, and they won't be able to get anything negative relating specific to you unless you specifically made the news somehow.
In that case, be honest about your role in the project and be honest about what happened.
Unless of course it was your fault the whole thing failed.
;)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661053</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661759</id>
	<title>Re:What I'd do</title>
	<author>avilliers</author>
	<datestamp>1247339460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>How is being able to tell your interviewer "I quit in the middle of projects I don't think will succeed, because it's good for my career" good for your career?</p></div><p>"I wanted to work on a project that was going to be successful, and I left when I became convinced that I couldn't contribute effectively given the current set up."</p><p>Showing you know the difference between a good project and bad project, especially ahead of time, is a <i>plus</i> in an interview.  Showing you care enough about the end result, and not just a paycheck, is a plus.  You should be able to communicate both of these things pretty convincingly if you left a high-profile disaster ahead of time. Make sure you're professional enough to talk about these things without badmouthing co-workers or sounding like a legend-in-your-own-mind, but other than that you're fine</p><p>

Even if a project was successful, interviewees should be able to explain what they learned from the things that didn't work well.  If it was unsuccessful, they should have a long list of mistakes that they now recognize first hand--and if you're going to claim you recognized all these things at the time they were happening, why did you stay? </p><p>I'd be just as interested in hearing the answer to that question.  It's not like either situation would make you start with a presumptive strike against you--both should be pretty easy to explain.  But there should be some level of awareness demonstrated, shouldn't there?  If someone's attitude is "I did what I was told, <i>my</i> section worked fine," you know (at best) you're dealing with someone who has a pure grunt mentality and will never take responsibility for the overall product quality.  I'd find working on a project like that very frustrating, and would be suspicious people who didn't.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How is being able to tell your interviewer " I quit in the middle of projects I do n't think will succeed , because it 's good for my career " good for your career ?
" I wanted to work on a project that was going to be successful , and I left when I became convinced that I could n't contribute effectively given the current set up .
" Showing you know the difference between a good project and bad project , especially ahead of time , is a plus in an interview .
Showing you care enough about the end result , and not just a paycheck , is a plus .
You should be able to communicate both of these things pretty convincingly if you left a high-profile disaster ahead of time .
Make sure you 're professional enough to talk about these things without badmouthing co-workers or sounding like a legend-in-your-own-mind , but other than that you 're fine Even if a project was successful , interviewees should be able to explain what they learned from the things that did n't work well .
If it was unsuccessful , they should have a long list of mistakes that they now recognize first hand--and if you 're going to claim you recognized all these things at the time they were happening , why did you stay ?
I 'd be just as interested in hearing the answer to that question .
It 's not like either situation would make you start with a presumptive strike against you--both should be pretty easy to explain .
But there should be some level of awareness demonstrated , should n't there ?
If someone 's attitude is " I did what I was told , my section worked fine , " you know ( at best ) you 're dealing with someone who has a pure grunt mentality and will never take responsibility for the overall product quality .
I 'd find working on a project like that very frustrating , and would be suspicious people who did n't .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How is being able to tell your interviewer "I quit in the middle of projects I don't think will succeed, because it's good for my career" good for your career?
"I wanted to work on a project that was going to be successful, and I left when I became convinced that I couldn't contribute effectively given the current set up.
"Showing you know the difference between a good project and bad project, especially ahead of time, is a plus in an interview.
Showing you care enough about the end result, and not just a paycheck, is a plus.
You should be able to communicate both of these things pretty convincingly if you left a high-profile disaster ahead of time.
Make sure you're professional enough to talk about these things without badmouthing co-workers or sounding like a legend-in-your-own-mind, but other than that you're fine

Even if a project was successful, interviewees should be able to explain what they learned from the things that didn't work well.
If it was unsuccessful, they should have a long list of mistakes that they now recognize first hand--and if you're going to claim you recognized all these things at the time they were happening, why did you stay?
I'd be just as interested in hearing the answer to that question.
It's not like either situation would make you start with a presumptive strike against you--both should be pretty easy to explain.
But there should be some level of awareness demonstrated, shouldn't there?
If someone's attitude is "I did what I was told, my section worked fine," you know (at best) you're dealing with someone who has a pure grunt mentality and will never take responsibility for the overall product quality.
I'd find working on a project like that very frustrating, and would be suspicious people who didn't.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661109</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28690801</id>
	<title>Re:In my experience, no.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247585280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not really...</p><p>They're the idiots who thought up and forced the implementation of the stupid idea in the first place.</p><p>The developers / admins / grunts are the ones who have to pay for the executive's ineptitude.</p><p>The executives should be shot on site to prevent the spread of insanity/stupidity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not really...They 're the idiots who thought up and forced the implementation of the stupid idea in the first place.The developers / admins / grunts are the ones who have to pay for the executive 's ineptitude.The executives should be shot on site to prevent the spread of insanity/stupidity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not really...They're the idiots who thought up and forced the implementation of the stupid idea in the first place.The developers / admins / grunts are the ones who have to pay for the executive's ineptitude.The executives should be shot on site to prevent the spread of insanity/stupidity.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661205</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661155</id>
	<title>Re:What I'd do</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247334660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's an incredibly dumb thing to do.  Projects fail, yes, but for many different reasons which may or may not be an individual programmer's fault.</p><p>Bad overall vision for the project.</p><p>Poor marketing.</p><p>Bad user interface.</p><p>Competition from bigger and more powerful companies.</p><p>If your programming chops are as good as you think they are, you <i>will</i> walk away from a disaster unscathed.  There is a difference between a piece of shit and a finely-engineered piece of shit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's an incredibly dumb thing to do .
Projects fail , yes , but for many different reasons which may or may not be an individual programmer 's fault.Bad overall vision for the project.Poor marketing.Bad user interface.Competition from bigger and more powerful companies.If your programming chops are as good as you think they are , you will walk away from a disaster unscathed .
There is a difference between a piece of shit and a finely-engineered piece of shit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's an incredibly dumb thing to do.
Projects fail, yes, but for many different reasons which may or may not be an individual programmer's fault.Bad overall vision for the project.Poor marketing.Bad user interface.Competition from bigger and more powerful companies.If your programming chops are as good as you think they are, you will walk away from a disaster unscathed.
There is a difference between a piece of shit and a finely-engineered piece of shit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661001</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662165</id>
	<title>Re:Just quit</title>
	<author>lemur666</author>
	<datestamp>1247342520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Collecting a paycheck to support a losing project is sign you have a wife and two kids to support</p></div><p>There, I fixed it for you.</p><p>Working on a doomed project while speaking out and trying to fix it is a sign of an engineer who is a good candidate for promotion.  They aren't just focused on their narrow portion and care about the project as a whole.</p><p>Generally, seeing engineers quit in the middle of a cluster-fuck project is a ding against their manager. It's up to their manager to make sure the engineers have input into the project, and can actual have their voices heard. Even if the project is a minor failure, people don't mind as much if they feel they have some stake in it. It's also a sign the project can be turned around in a later release if people at least have a voice in how to fix the processes that led to failure in the first place.</p><p>Sure some engineers are malcontents who can never be made happy, but these are pretty easy to spot in an interview. They'll talk about how the project sucked, but won't have much to say about how they'd make it better.
</p><p>And even within clusterfuck projects, there can be small successes. I'm sure there are some lovely components buried deep inside Vista </p><p>So a smart interviewer is going to ask questions about your involvement in the clusterfuck.</p><p>And if the interviewer doesn't. Try answering the question without being asked. Or talk about how great your subcomponent was. And if the interviewer doesn't like that. Well, do you really want to work for/with a dumb-ass? </p><p>It also depends on experience. A smart, junior engineer shouldn't be blamed at all of a project failure. A senior engineer / manager should be asked some tough questions about their involvement.</p><p>Then there's the whole "companies with a stench of failure all over everything." Basically, I look for people with short tenures at these sorts of places. I don't want to see a 10 year veteran VP candidate from any company with reputations for "climb to the top of the meatpile" back-stabbers. Or an engineer from a place with a reputation for being insular and producing sub-par code.</p><p>Finally, the question you have to ask yourself is "Is this project really a failure?"</p><p>15 years ago I left a software company after a 3 year 'Bataan Death March'-style release of what I thought was a very disappointing, bloated, and technologically lagging project. </p><p>This product enjoys around a 65\% Market share and probably a billion in sales annually. </p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Collecting a paycheck to support a losing project is sign you have a wife and two kids to supportThere , I fixed it for you.Working on a doomed project while speaking out and trying to fix it is a sign of an engineer who is a good candidate for promotion .
They are n't just focused on their narrow portion and care about the project as a whole.Generally , seeing engineers quit in the middle of a cluster-fuck project is a ding against their manager .
It 's up to their manager to make sure the engineers have input into the project , and can actual have their voices heard .
Even if the project is a minor failure , people do n't mind as much if they feel they have some stake in it .
It 's also a sign the project can be turned around in a later release if people at least have a voice in how to fix the processes that led to failure in the first place.Sure some engineers are malcontents who can never be made happy , but these are pretty easy to spot in an interview .
They 'll talk about how the project sucked , but wo n't have much to say about how they 'd make it better .
And even within clusterfuck projects , there can be small successes .
I 'm sure there are some lovely components buried deep inside Vista So a smart interviewer is going to ask questions about your involvement in the clusterfuck.And if the interviewer does n't .
Try answering the question without being asked .
Or talk about how great your subcomponent was .
And if the interviewer does n't like that .
Well , do you really want to work for/with a dumb-ass ?
It also depends on experience .
A smart , junior engineer should n't be blamed at all of a project failure .
A senior engineer / manager should be asked some tough questions about their involvement.Then there 's the whole " companies with a stench of failure all over everything .
" Basically , I look for people with short tenures at these sorts of places .
I do n't want to see a 10 year veteran VP candidate from any company with reputations for " climb to the top of the meatpile " back-stabbers .
Or an engineer from a place with a reputation for being insular and producing sub-par code.Finally , the question you have to ask yourself is " Is this project really a failure ?
" 15 years ago I left a software company after a 3 year 'Bataan Death March'-style release of what I thought was a very disappointing , bloated , and technologically lagging project .
This product enjoys around a 65 \ % Market share and probably a billion in sales annually .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Collecting a paycheck to support a losing project is sign you have a wife and two kids to supportThere, I fixed it for you.Working on a doomed project while speaking out and trying to fix it is a sign of an engineer who is a good candidate for promotion.
They aren't just focused on their narrow portion and care about the project as a whole.Generally, seeing engineers quit in the middle of a cluster-fuck project is a ding against their manager.
It's up to their manager to make sure the engineers have input into the project, and can actual have their voices heard.
Even if the project is a minor failure, people don't mind as much if they feel they have some stake in it.
It's also a sign the project can be turned around in a later release if people at least have a voice in how to fix the processes that led to failure in the first place.Sure some engineers are malcontents who can never be made happy, but these are pretty easy to spot in an interview.
They'll talk about how the project sucked, but won't have much to say about how they'd make it better.
And even within clusterfuck projects, there can be small successes.
I'm sure there are some lovely components buried deep inside Vista So a smart interviewer is going to ask questions about your involvement in the clusterfuck.And if the interviewer doesn't.
Try answering the question without being asked.
Or talk about how great your subcomponent was.
And if the interviewer doesn't like that.
Well, do you really want to work for/with a dumb-ass?
It also depends on experience.
A smart, junior engineer shouldn't be blamed at all of a project failure.
A senior engineer / manager should be asked some tough questions about their involvement.Then there's the whole "companies with a stench of failure all over everything.
" Basically, I look for people with short tenures at these sorts of places.
I don't want to see a 10 year veteran VP candidate from any company with reputations for "climb to the top of the meatpile" back-stabbers.
Or an engineer from a place with a reputation for being insular and producing sub-par code.Finally, the question you have to ask yourself is "Is this project really a failure?
"15 years ago I left a software company after a 3 year 'Bataan Death March'-style release of what I thought was a very disappointing, bloated, and technologically lagging project.
This product enjoys around a 65\% Market share and probably a billion in sales annually. 
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661291</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28664037</id>
	<title>Re:People change jobs all the time</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247313600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>The bad programmers usually get an MBA and move on to project management. We all know since they can't program that well... they can't possibly mess up a project by managing them. Laf.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The bad programmers usually get an MBA and move on to project management .
We all know since they ca n't program that well... they ca n't possibly mess up a project by managing them .
Laf .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The bad programmers usually get an MBA and move on to project management.
We all know since they can't program that well... they can't possibly mess up a project by managing them.
Laf.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28660991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28693857</id>
	<title>Re:What I'd do</title>
	<author>ivan256</author>
	<datestamp>1247598060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On the other hand, folks that go down with a sinking ship are idiots.</p><p>Why would you want to work with somebody who's an idiot?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On the other hand , folks that go down with a sinking ship are idiots.Why would you want to work with somebody who 's an idiot ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On the other hand, folks that go down with a sinking ship are idiots.Why would you want to work with somebody who's an idiot?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28665313</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28665981</id>
	<title>Re:The Punishment Should Fit the Crime</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247389380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Project fails because the software is buggy? Hold the head of QA accountable.</p></div></blockquote><p>Kindly fuck off.  QA didn't write the bugs.  QA is not accountable for anything other unless they failed to dilligently search for defects.</p><p>Love,</p><p>Your QA team.</p><p>PS: Fuck you ^ 2 if the development team is late delivering and test time is cut to meet the schedule.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Project fails because the software is buggy ?
Hold the head of QA accountable.Kindly fuck off .
QA did n't write the bugs .
QA is not accountable for anything other unless they failed to dilligently search for defects.Love,Your QA team.PS : Fuck you ^ 2 if the development team is late delivering and test time is cut to meet the schedule .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Project fails because the software is buggy?
Hold the head of QA accountable.Kindly fuck off.
QA didn't write the bugs.
QA is not accountable for anything other unless they failed to dilligently search for defects.Love,Your QA team.PS: Fuck you ^ 2 if the development team is late delivering and test time is cut to meet the schedule.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662005</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28669351</id>
	<title>Re:People change jobs all the time</title>
	<author>St.Creed</author>
	<datestamp>1247389680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I once had a trainee colleague who came out of the psychology field and had retrained into IT. She was pretty bored by the whole IT thing after a month or 6, and she wasnt very good at her job either.</p><p>However, I ran into her about 10 years later, and she's an IT-manager now, appreciated by several good IT-folks as one of the best managers they ever had the pleasure to work with. She just had to find the place to apply her real skills.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I once had a trainee colleague who came out of the psychology field and had retrained into IT .
She was pretty bored by the whole IT thing after a month or 6 , and she wasnt very good at her job either.However , I ran into her about 10 years later , and she 's an IT-manager now , appreciated by several good IT-folks as one of the best managers they ever had the pleasure to work with .
She just had to find the place to apply her real skills .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I once had a trainee colleague who came out of the psychology field and had retrained into IT.
She was pretty bored by the whole IT thing after a month or 6, and she wasnt very good at her job either.However, I ran into her about 10 years later, and she's an IT-manager now, appreciated by several good IT-folks as one of the best managers they ever had the pleasure to work with.
She just had to find the place to apply her real skills.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28660991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661329</id>
	<title>Lame Project Survival Kit</title>
	<author>ddt</author>
	<datestamp>1247335800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been in this position a few times because in game development, there are lots of bad games out there that are rushed to completion to sync them up with the release of a film, for example, or to hit Christmas, or because a publisher is trying to make its quarter or because a developer is running out of money.</p><p>Here's your lame project survival kit:</p><p>1. Stick close to the most talented folks on the team, and treat them as your real boss.  Pretty soon, they're going to leave.  Make sure they have fond memories of you, so that they can recommend you where they end up, and make sure you get their personal email addresses.  Everybody loves a good, helpful coder.  This is by far and away the most useful thing you can do for both your soul and the long-term health of your career.</p><p>2. Drop the project from your resume.  Mention the company but explain that you worked on various projects there.</p><p>3. Take responsibility for turning the project around, find a scapegoat in sales, gather evidence, and pin it on him (never in writing) when it goes down in flames.  This will make you part evil and is a big part of how people fail upwards, but lots of folks have had made lucrative careers using this approach.</p><p>4. Lame projects typically have poor direction and allow people to get away with doing whatever they want without being fired, as long as they look busy.  So invent a task that or sub-project that results in a short, flashy demo or video that makes you look good to your next employer.</p><p>5. Flatter the slimiest, most inept manager in the group.  They typically crave this because no one recognizes their true "genius".  They also often pick option 3. and end up attached to some new project to fuck up, which can buy time while you're looking for a new job.  They work hard to surround themselves with loyal useful people who say nice things about them.</p><p>6. Start humbly asking to buy the CEO lunch and start picking his brain on executive management or anything he knows lots about and seems to be passionate about discussing.  Never let him pay for lunch, because you consider it too educational.  You may or may not be interested in what he has to say, but the key thing is face time.  When things go to poo, it'll be harder for him to fire you.</p><p>7. Stop being lazy about your future.  Look hard for another job.  Put 1-2 hours into it every day after you come home from work.  Lame projects blacken and destroy souls.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been in this position a few times because in game development , there are lots of bad games out there that are rushed to completion to sync them up with the release of a film , for example , or to hit Christmas , or because a publisher is trying to make its quarter or because a developer is running out of money.Here 's your lame project survival kit : 1 .
Stick close to the most talented folks on the team , and treat them as your real boss .
Pretty soon , they 're going to leave .
Make sure they have fond memories of you , so that they can recommend you where they end up , and make sure you get their personal email addresses .
Everybody loves a good , helpful coder .
This is by far and away the most useful thing you can do for both your soul and the long-term health of your career.2 .
Drop the project from your resume .
Mention the company but explain that you worked on various projects there.3 .
Take responsibility for turning the project around , find a scapegoat in sales , gather evidence , and pin it on him ( never in writing ) when it goes down in flames .
This will make you part evil and is a big part of how people fail upwards , but lots of folks have had made lucrative careers using this approach.4 .
Lame projects typically have poor direction and allow people to get away with doing whatever they want without being fired , as long as they look busy .
So invent a task that or sub-project that results in a short , flashy demo or video that makes you look good to your next employer.5 .
Flatter the slimiest , most inept manager in the group .
They typically crave this because no one recognizes their true " genius " .
They also often pick option 3. and end up attached to some new project to fuck up , which can buy time while you 're looking for a new job .
They work hard to surround themselves with loyal useful people who say nice things about them.6 .
Start humbly asking to buy the CEO lunch and start picking his brain on executive management or anything he knows lots about and seems to be passionate about discussing .
Never let him pay for lunch , because you consider it too educational .
You may or may not be interested in what he has to say , but the key thing is face time .
When things go to poo , it 'll be harder for him to fire you.7 .
Stop being lazy about your future .
Look hard for another job .
Put 1-2 hours into it every day after you come home from work .
Lame projects blacken and destroy souls .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been in this position a few times because in game development, there are lots of bad games out there that are rushed to completion to sync them up with the release of a film, for example, or to hit Christmas, or because a publisher is trying to make its quarter or because a developer is running out of money.Here's your lame project survival kit:1.
Stick close to the most talented folks on the team, and treat them as your real boss.
Pretty soon, they're going to leave.
Make sure they have fond memories of you, so that they can recommend you where they end up, and make sure you get their personal email addresses.
Everybody loves a good, helpful coder.
This is by far and away the most useful thing you can do for both your soul and the long-term health of your career.2.
Drop the project from your resume.
Mention the company but explain that you worked on various projects there.3.
Take responsibility for turning the project around, find a scapegoat in sales, gather evidence, and pin it on him (never in writing) when it goes down in flames.
This will make you part evil and is a big part of how people fail upwards, but lots of folks have had made lucrative careers using this approach.4.
Lame projects typically have poor direction and allow people to get away with doing whatever they want without being fired, as long as they look busy.
So invent a task that or sub-project that results in a short, flashy demo or video that makes you look good to your next employer.5.
Flatter the slimiest, most inept manager in the group.
They typically crave this because no one recognizes their true "genius".
They also often pick option 3. and end up attached to some new project to fuck up, which can buy time while you're looking for a new job.
They work hard to surround themselves with loyal useful people who say nice things about them.6.
Start humbly asking to buy the CEO lunch and start picking his brain on executive management or anything he knows lots about and seems to be passionate about discussing.
Never let him pay for lunch, because you consider it too educational.
You may or may not be interested in what he has to say, but the key thing is face time.
When things go to poo, it'll be harder for him to fire you.7.
Stop being lazy about your future.
Look hard for another job.
Put 1-2 hours into it every day after you come home from work.
Lame projects blacken and destroy souls.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28665561</id>
	<title>Re:Lame Project Survival Kit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247336820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Erm... Is this from actual experience?</p><p>All of this sounds a lot like the past 6 months of Dilbert strips.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Erm... Is this from actual experience ? All of this sounds a lot like the past 6 months of Dilbert strips .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Erm... Is this from actual experience?All of this sounds a lot like the past 6 months of Dilbert strips.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661329</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28664061</id>
	<title>And nobody is listening..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247313960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am experiencing the same in my company. A new guy is hired and he is on the mission to build the entire system in two weeks...we tried that before and it failed miserably. So I tried communicating it to this talented soul [who is hired without any technical interview - anyways] - and he went on shooting a few missiles my way. Now, I don't understand why people don't want to listen.</p><p>Like re-designing entire production database because they want to use a specific ORM technology or love something brand new. In my opinion - strategy based on "technology looking for a requirement" is a recipe for the disaster. Many a time we as a developer or a group either commit the same mistake or take a passive stand so we can save our own job [ I am doing the same now] - I got my small project going on [1 man army - me myself working on it], but some where in the near distance a team is going on the path that will take them to the cliff...and nobody is listening..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am experiencing the same in my company .
A new guy is hired and he is on the mission to build the entire system in two weeks...we tried that before and it failed miserably .
So I tried communicating it to this talented soul [ who is hired without any technical interview - anyways ] - and he went on shooting a few missiles my way .
Now , I do n't understand why people do n't want to listen.Like re-designing entire production database because they want to use a specific ORM technology or love something brand new .
In my opinion - strategy based on " technology looking for a requirement " is a recipe for the disaster .
Many a time we as a developer or a group either commit the same mistake or take a passive stand so we can save our own job [ I am doing the same now ] - I got my small project going on [ 1 man army - me myself working on it ] , but some where in the near distance a team is going on the path that will take them to the cliff...and nobody is listening. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am experiencing the same in my company.
A new guy is hired and he is on the mission to build the entire system in two weeks...we tried that before and it failed miserably.
So I tried communicating it to this talented soul [who is hired without any technical interview - anyways] - and he went on shooting a few missiles my way.
Now, I don't understand why people don't want to listen.Like re-designing entire production database because they want to use a specific ORM technology or love something brand new.
In my opinion - strategy based on "technology looking for a requirement" is a recipe for the disaster.
Many a time we as a developer or a group either commit the same mistake or take a passive stand so we can save our own job [ I am doing the same now] - I got my small project going on [1 man army - me myself working on it], but some where in the near distance a team is going on the path that will take them to the cliff...and nobody is listening..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28674917</id>
	<title>Re:In my experience, no.</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1247493420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Could not agree with you more...I am in a stable company now, but before went through many of these types of cos. that just did not get it, all in the name of saving a few pennies, instead of getting the proper resources...in the end they lost everything, even with such great potential they had...!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Could not agree with you more...I am in a stable company now , but before went through many of these types of cos. that just did not get it , all in the name of saving a few pennies , instead of getting the proper resources...in the end they lost everything , even with such great potential they had... !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Could not agree with you more...I am in a stable company now, but before went through many of these types of cos. that just did not get it, all in the name of saving a few pennies, instead of getting the proper resources...in the end they lost everything, even with such great potential they had...!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661619</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661053</id>
	<title>I cant imagine Windows ME is a great career boost</title>
	<author>voss</author>
	<datestamp>1247334240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>However, learning from the mistakes of failed projects can actually increase your value, especially if the employer wants you to speak up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>However , learning from the mistakes of failed projects can actually increase your value , especially if the employer wants you to speak up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>However, learning from the mistakes of failed projects can actually increase your value, especially if the employer wants you to speak up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28660937</id>
	<title>Back up about 2 steps</title>
	<author>BadAnalogyGuy</author>
	<datestamp>1247333460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Before we can answer your question, two questions for you.</p><p>Who do you work for?<br>Describe the project you're currently working on.</p><p>Bonus question: What is your name and the names of your teammates?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Before we can answer your question , two questions for you.Who do you work for ? Describe the project you 're currently working on.Bonus question : What is your name and the names of your teammates ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Before we can answer your question, two questions for you.Who do you work for?Describe the project you're currently working on.Bonus question: What is your name and the names of your teammates?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661109</id>
	<title>Re:What I'd do</title>
	<author>Brian Gordon</author>
	<datestamp>1247334480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>How is being able to tell your interviewer "I quit in the middle of projects I don't think will succeed, because it's good for my career" good for your career?</htmltext>
<tokenext>How is being able to tell your interviewer " I quit in the middle of projects I do n't think will succeed , because it 's good for my career " good for your career ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How is being able to tell your interviewer "I quit in the middle of projects I don't think will succeed, because it's good for my career" good for your career?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661001</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28663911</id>
	<title>Re:In my experience, no.</title>
	<author>rakslice</author>
	<datestamp>1247312580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe... In the trenches you can learn from your co-workers, and you can learn from your mistakes. But it's often lonely at the top, <a href="http://www.scripting.com/davenet/1995/12/24/whiteboywelfare.html#5" title="scripting.com">"White boy welfare"</a> [scripting.com] makes even the latter difficult.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe... In the trenches you can learn from your co-workers , and you can learn from your mistakes .
But it 's often lonely at the top , " White boy welfare " [ scripting.com ] makes even the latter difficult .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe... In the trenches you can learn from your co-workers, and you can learn from your mistakes.
But it's often lonely at the top, "White boy welfare" [scripting.com] makes even the latter difficult.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661205</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661395</id>
	<title>Re:What I'd do</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247336460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just ask Sarah Palin.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just ask Sarah Palin .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just ask Sarah Palin.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661109</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28660927</id>
	<title>In my experience, no.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247333340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been part of two large, high-profile projects that cratered spectacularly (as I knew they would) and I consider it some of the most valuable experience of my career as a software developer. I've told that to interviewers a number of times. If they don't get it, then I don't want to work for them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been part of two large , high-profile projects that cratered spectacularly ( as I knew they would ) and I consider it some of the most valuable experience of my career as a software developer .
I 've told that to interviewers a number of times .
If they do n't get it , then I do n't want to work for them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been part of two large, high-profile projects that cratered spectacularly (as I knew they would) and I consider it some of the most valuable experience of my career as a software developer.
I've told that to interviewers a number of times.
If they don't get it, then I don't want to work for them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28663785</id>
	<title>Unhireable?, Haha, they get promoted...</title>
	<author>hofmny</author>
	<datestamp>1247311380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>Have they ever become unhireable?</i>
<br> <br>
Not at all. Instead, they move on to become development leads or even project managers, ruining even more projects and companies!
<br> <br>
(my ex was in HR, and basically, US law forbids your old job from saying anything negative to your new employer)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Have they ever become unhireable ?
Not at all .
Instead , they move on to become development leads or even project managers , ruining even more projects and companies !
( my ex was in HR , and basically , US law forbids your old job from saying anything negative to your new employer )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have they ever become unhireable?
Not at all.
Instead, they move on to become development leads or even project managers, ruining even more projects and companies!
(my ex was in HR, and basically, US law forbids your old job from saying anything negative to your new employer)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661619</id>
	<title>Re:In my experience, no.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247338260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Not really.  If a project is a catastrophe, then that's usually attributable to executive decisions.  If the output of the developers caused the catastrophe, then it's usually because the project was mismanaged - not assigning any resources to QA, ignoring risks, handling change requests badly, allowing feature creep, setting unrealistic deadlines, and so on.  It's rare that developers are actually to blame for a project going pear-shaped, and when they are, management are often complicit because they knowingly hired cheap developers without experience.  The developers are there to write code, it's the managers' jobs to ensure that the project succeeds.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not really .
If a project is a catastrophe , then that 's usually attributable to executive decisions .
If the output of the developers caused the catastrophe , then it 's usually because the project was mismanaged - not assigning any resources to QA , ignoring risks , handling change requests badly , allowing feature creep , setting unrealistic deadlines , and so on .
It 's rare that developers are actually to blame for a project going pear-shaped , and when they are , management are often complicit because they knowingly hired cheap developers without experience .
The developers are there to write code , it 's the managers ' jobs to ensure that the project succeeds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Not really.
If a project is a catastrophe, then that's usually attributable to executive decisions.
If the output of the developers caused the catastrophe, then it's usually because the project was mismanaged - not assigning any resources to QA, ignoring risks, handling change requests badly, allowing feature creep, setting unrealistic deadlines, and so on.
It's rare that developers are actually to blame for a project going pear-shaped, and when they are, management are often complicit because they knowingly hired cheap developers without experience.
The developers are there to write code, it's the managers' jobs to ensure that the project succeeds.
</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661205</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28664569</id>
	<title>Re:In my experience, no.</title>
	<author>wrook</author>
	<datestamp>1247319420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've worked on some flops in my time too.  At subsequent interviews I'm pretty candid about what went wrong.  For example on one project it became clear that we were building a product that nobody would want to use.  Eventually the project was canned because it was simply stupid.  I'm invariably asked what I would do differently in those situations.</p><p>I respond that when I see a potential problem, I discuss it with my manager.  I point out possible solutions and indicate the cost of remedial action.  I try to explain what the consequences of ignoring the problem is.  Usually they ask if that will solve the problem.  I say, probably not.  Because I am not running the project.  I am only one voice and can only view the project from my perspective.  I will honestly give feedback and and discretely point out potential problems.  But business is about taking risk.  I may not be able to fully understand the risks and potential benefits from my position.  So in the end I will discuss problems, but I will accept decisions and do my best to fulfill my role.  Sometimes the risk doesn't pan out and we are left with a failure.  Even if I correctly predicted the failure, that doesn't mean it wasn't worth trying.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've worked on some flops in my time too .
At subsequent interviews I 'm pretty candid about what went wrong .
For example on one project it became clear that we were building a product that nobody would want to use .
Eventually the project was canned because it was simply stupid .
I 'm invariably asked what I would do differently in those situations.I respond that when I see a potential problem , I discuss it with my manager .
I point out possible solutions and indicate the cost of remedial action .
I try to explain what the consequences of ignoring the problem is .
Usually they ask if that will solve the problem .
I say , probably not .
Because I am not running the project .
I am only one voice and can only view the project from my perspective .
I will honestly give feedback and and discretely point out potential problems .
But business is about taking risk .
I may not be able to fully understand the risks and potential benefits from my position .
So in the end I will discuss problems , but I will accept decisions and do my best to fulfill my role .
Sometimes the risk does n't pan out and we are left with a failure .
Even if I correctly predicted the failure , that does n't mean it was n't worth trying .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've worked on some flops in my time too.
At subsequent interviews I'm pretty candid about what went wrong.
For example on one project it became clear that we were building a product that nobody would want to use.
Eventually the project was canned because it was simply stupid.
I'm invariably asked what I would do differently in those situations.I respond that when I see a potential problem, I discuss it with my manager.
I point out possible solutions and indicate the cost of remedial action.
I try to explain what the consequences of ignoring the problem is.
Usually they ask if that will solve the problem.
I say, probably not.
Because I am not running the project.
I am only one voice and can only view the project from my perspective.
I will honestly give feedback and and discretely point out potential problems.
But business is about taking risk.
I may not be able to fully understand the risks and potential benefits from my position.
So in the end I will discuss problems, but I will accept decisions and do my best to fulfill my role.
Sometimes the risk doesn't pan out and we are left with a failure.
Even if I correctly predicted the failure, that doesn't mean it wasn't worth trying.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28660927</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662163</id>
	<title>Re:A solution</title>
	<author>John Hasler</author>
	<datestamp>1247342460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; For those that don't know the Confirm project, they spent about $180M and about 6 weeks<br>&gt; from the end date realized they were at least 18 months late.</p><p>Yes, but how did it differ from the average project?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; For those that do n't know the Confirm project , they spent about $ 180M and about 6 weeks &gt; from the end date realized they were at least 18 months late.Yes , but how did it differ from the average project ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; For those that don't know the Confirm project, they spent about $180M and about 6 weeks&gt; from the end date realized they were at least 18 months late.Yes, but how did it differ from the average project?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661173</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28663493</id>
	<title>Re:A solution</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1247308920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And thats supposed to be shocking or something?  Do you realize this is pretty much standard operating procedure for software development now, I can't think of any company that gives me a software release date and I believe it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And thats supposed to be shocking or something ?
Do you realize this is pretty much standard operating procedure for software development now , I ca n't think of any company that gives me a software release date and I believe it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And thats supposed to be shocking or something?
Do you realize this is pretty much standard operating procedure for software development now, I can't think of any company that gives me a software release date and I believe it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661173</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28666983</id>
	<title>It depends on hindsight</title>
	<author>ned14</author>
	<datestamp>1247409540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One of the biggest roles I ever worked was as head of development for the control software of the fuel and hydraulic test benches of the EuroFighter defence aircraft. The entire EuroFighter project was probably one of the biggest IT flops of the last twenty years - with at least a 25 BILLION euro overrun as well as five years late and the project still doesn't work (and likely never will). And it wasn't the engineering that went wrong, it was actually the software stuff - few realised at the outset that most of that airplane was actually software and not hardware, and they misallocated the resources accordingly from the start. For example, I was appointed as head of software development despite being just *twenty* *three* years old at the time because no one thought software was the hard part. It typically meant that the big salaries went to the hardware guys and they just got anyone they could for the software - though in fairness, they rapidly ramped up our salaries when they twigged our importance.
</p><p>.
</p><p>Yet because of the name recognition and the seniority of the role, it is without doubt the biggest asset on my CV (despite having also worked for ARM and having a long line of open source contributions). Companies really like names they know, and a big engineering project is perceived as being "even better" by managers and HR than a pure software project.
</p><p>.
</p><p>However that's today in 2009, and it wasn't always so. In 2003 I couldn't get an interview for love nor money and I think that was because there was more negative EuroFighter news in the press at the time, and I was indeed black balled for it at that time. In hindsight, with the passage of some time (and I'm sure it helps that now I'm older too), people tend to forget the bad and remember only the good.
</p><p>.
</p><p>Therefore my advice to you is this: even if you are working on the biggest flop of the next decade which will be talked about by everyone for years to come, remember that the pain of association only lasts a few years. It is still better for your CV in *the* *long* *run* to have worked on a really famous disaster (and to show you have worked on anything e.g. open source competently since) than to have worked a serious of non-descript successes.
</p><p>.
</p><p>I guess that's celebrity culture for you, but maybe also a touch of the prodigal son. Interviews and job hiring as just as fraught with insecurity and anxiety for the managers (indeed probably more so) than for the prospective employee. I certainly always found during the hiring process that I worried about how person X would fit into my team, whether their colourful private life might be a boon or a problem, whether and how much they are telling lies or leaving things out etc. Someone who is slightly famous and/or has evidence of having publicly gone through the wringer is probably a safer bet than someone whose background could be entirely faked - after all, I as a manager don't have the time to extensively fact check an interviewee's CV for truth.
</p><p>.
</p><p>Hope that helps and good luck in the future. By the way, in the long run forming your own business is definitely the way - it's much more of a challenge, you reap what you sow directly, and best of all you get to mostly work on what you want when you want with whom you want.
</p><p>.
</p><p>Cheers,</p><p>
Niall</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One of the biggest roles I ever worked was as head of development for the control software of the fuel and hydraulic test benches of the EuroFighter defence aircraft .
The entire EuroFighter project was probably one of the biggest IT flops of the last twenty years - with at least a 25 BILLION euro overrun as well as five years late and the project still does n't work ( and likely never will ) .
And it was n't the engineering that went wrong , it was actually the software stuff - few realised at the outset that most of that airplane was actually software and not hardware , and they misallocated the resources accordingly from the start .
For example , I was appointed as head of software development despite being just * twenty * * three * years old at the time because no one thought software was the hard part .
It typically meant that the big salaries went to the hardware guys and they just got anyone they could for the software - though in fairness , they rapidly ramped up our salaries when they twigged our importance .
. Yet because of the name recognition and the seniority of the role , it is without doubt the biggest asset on my CV ( despite having also worked for ARM and having a long line of open source contributions ) .
Companies really like names they know , and a big engineering project is perceived as being " even better " by managers and HR than a pure software project .
. However that 's today in 2009 , and it was n't always so .
In 2003 I could n't get an interview for love nor money and I think that was because there was more negative EuroFighter news in the press at the time , and I was indeed black balled for it at that time .
In hindsight , with the passage of some time ( and I 'm sure it helps that now I 'm older too ) , people tend to forget the bad and remember only the good .
. Therefore my advice to you is this : even if you are working on the biggest flop of the next decade which will be talked about by everyone for years to come , remember that the pain of association only lasts a few years .
It is still better for your CV in * the * * long * * run * to have worked on a really famous disaster ( and to show you have worked on anything e.g .
open source competently since ) than to have worked a serious of non-descript successes .
. I guess that 's celebrity culture for you , but maybe also a touch of the prodigal son .
Interviews and job hiring as just as fraught with insecurity and anxiety for the managers ( indeed probably more so ) than for the prospective employee .
I certainly always found during the hiring process that I worried about how person X would fit into my team , whether their colourful private life might be a boon or a problem , whether and how much they are telling lies or leaving things out etc .
Someone who is slightly famous and/or has evidence of having publicly gone through the wringer is probably a safer bet than someone whose background could be entirely faked - after all , I as a manager do n't have the time to extensively fact check an interviewee 's CV for truth .
. Hope that helps and good luck in the future .
By the way , in the long run forming your own business is definitely the way - it 's much more of a challenge , you reap what you sow directly , and best of all you get to mostly work on what you want when you want with whom you want .
. Cheers , Niall</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One of the biggest roles I ever worked was as head of development for the control software of the fuel and hydraulic test benches of the EuroFighter defence aircraft.
The entire EuroFighter project was probably one of the biggest IT flops of the last twenty years - with at least a 25 BILLION euro overrun as well as five years late and the project still doesn't work (and likely never will).
And it wasn't the engineering that went wrong, it was actually the software stuff - few realised at the outset that most of that airplane was actually software and not hardware, and they misallocated the resources accordingly from the start.
For example, I was appointed as head of software development despite being just *twenty* *three* years old at the time because no one thought software was the hard part.
It typically meant that the big salaries went to the hardware guys and they just got anyone they could for the software - though in fairness, they rapidly ramped up our salaries when they twigged our importance.
.
Yet because of the name recognition and the seniority of the role, it is without doubt the biggest asset on my CV (despite having also worked for ARM and having a long line of open source contributions).
Companies really like names they know, and a big engineering project is perceived as being "even better" by managers and HR than a pure software project.
.
However that's today in 2009, and it wasn't always so.
In 2003 I couldn't get an interview for love nor money and I think that was because there was more negative EuroFighter news in the press at the time, and I was indeed black balled for it at that time.
In hindsight, with the passage of some time (and I'm sure it helps that now I'm older too), people tend to forget the bad and remember only the good.
.
Therefore my advice to you is this: even if you are working on the biggest flop of the next decade which will be talked about by everyone for years to come, remember that the pain of association only lasts a few years.
It is still better for your CV in *the* *long* *run* to have worked on a really famous disaster (and to show you have worked on anything e.g.
open source competently since) than to have worked a serious of non-descript successes.
.
I guess that's celebrity culture for you, but maybe also a touch of the prodigal son.
Interviews and job hiring as just as fraught with insecurity and anxiety for the managers (indeed probably more so) than for the prospective employee.
I certainly always found during the hiring process that I worried about how person X would fit into my team, whether their colourful private life might be a boon or a problem, whether and how much they are telling lies or leaving things out etc.
Someone who is slightly famous and/or has evidence of having publicly gone through the wringer is probably a safer bet than someone whose background could be entirely faked - after all, I as a manager don't have the time to extensively fact check an interviewee's CV for truth.
.
Hope that helps and good luck in the future.
By the way, in the long run forming your own business is definitely the way - it's much more of a challenge, you reap what you sow directly, and best of all you get to mostly work on what you want when you want with whom you want.
.
Cheers,
Niall</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662103</id>
	<title>Re:What I'd do</title>
	<author>TheMCP</author>
	<datestamp>1247342040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're telling your interviewer "I quit in the middle of organizational failure, and I'm smart enough to cover my ass by jumping when things are obviously wrong, rather than stupidly going down with the sinking ship."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're telling your interviewer " I quit in the middle of organizational failure , and I 'm smart enough to cover my ass by jumping when things are obviously wrong , rather than stupidly going down with the sinking ship .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're telling your interviewer "I quit in the middle of organizational failure, and I'm smart enough to cover my ass by jumping when things are obviously wrong, rather than stupidly going down with the sinking ship.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661109</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661229</id>
	<title>Re:Don't Worry!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247335200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'm sure Windows 7 developers will still be employable after the October release.</p></div><p>I don't know, can we have a show of hands for Windows ME developers that are still employed in IT?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sure Windows 7 developers will still be employable after the October release.I do n't know , can we have a show of hands for Windows ME developers that are still employed in IT ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sure Windows 7 developers will still be employable after the October release.I don't know, can we have a show of hands for Windows ME developers that are still employed in IT?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28660965</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661387</id>
	<title>Re:What I'd do</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247336400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not sure. Ask Sarah Palin.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure .
Ask Sarah Palin .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not sure.
Ask Sarah Palin.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661109</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28670697</id>
	<title>It's not the stigma, it's the stink</title>
	<author>heironymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247400780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Projects almost never fail for technical reasons.  Pretty much everyone knows this, so I wouldn't worry too much about programmers being stigmatized from working on a failed project.</p><p>However, you should worry about the effects on yourself.  Toxic environments can warp your perspective, your work ethic, and your love for the craft.  Engineers need to be optimists, and cynicism will creep into you if you work for a messed-up company.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Projects almost never fail for technical reasons .
Pretty much everyone knows this , so I would n't worry too much about programmers being stigmatized from working on a failed project.However , you should worry about the effects on yourself .
Toxic environments can warp your perspective , your work ethic , and your love for the craft .
Engineers need to be optimists , and cynicism will creep into you if you work for a messed-up company .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Projects almost never fail for technical reasons.
Pretty much everyone knows this, so I wouldn't worry too much about programmers being stigmatized from working on a failed project.However, you should worry about the effects on yourself.
Toxic environments can warp your perspective, your work ethic, and your love for the craft.
Engineers need to be optimists, and cynicism will creep into you if you work for a messed-up company.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28664885</id>
	<title>Re:A solution</title>
	<author>Swampash</author>
	<datestamp>1247324820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirm\_Project" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirm\_Project</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirm \ _Project [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirm\_Project [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661173</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661205</id>
	<title>Re:In my experience, no.</title>
	<author>DerekLyons</author>
	<datestamp>1247335020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I've been part of two large, high-profile projects that cratered spectacularly (as I knew they would) and I consider it some of the most valuable experience of my career as a software developer.</p></div></blockquote><p>Yep, and the same thing applies to the executives the questioner slams.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been part of two large , high-profile projects that cratered spectacularly ( as I knew they would ) and I consider it some of the most valuable experience of my career as a software developer.Yep , and the same thing applies to the executives the questioner slams .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been part of two large, high-profile projects that cratered spectacularly (as I knew they would) and I consider it some of the most valuable experience of my career as a software developer.Yep, and the same thing applies to the executives the questioner slams.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28660927</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661173</id>
	<title>A solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247334840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A good friend of mine spent a couple of years on the Confirm project, which ended in a total mess almost 20 years ago.  He claims that he simply put <i>"2 years, federal prison"</i> on his resume so that he'd have a better chance of being hired.</p><p>For those that don't know the Confirm project, they spent about $180M and about 6 weeks from the end date realized they were at least 18 months late.  You can look up the rest of the details.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A good friend of mine spent a couple of years on the Confirm project , which ended in a total mess almost 20 years ago .
He claims that he simply put " 2 years , federal prison " on his resume so that he 'd have a better chance of being hired.For those that do n't know the Confirm project , they spent about $ 180M and about 6 weeks from the end date realized they were at least 18 months late .
You can look up the rest of the details .
: - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A good friend of mine spent a couple of years on the Confirm project, which ended in a total mess almost 20 years ago.
He claims that he simply put "2 years, federal prison" on his resume so that he'd have a better chance of being hired.For those that don't know the Confirm project, they spent about $180M and about 6 weeks from the end date realized they were at least 18 months late.
You can look up the rest of the details.
:-)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662155</id>
	<title>Re:In my experience, no.</title>
	<author>fooslacker</author>
	<datestamp>1247342460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I've been part of two large, high-profile projects that cratered spectacularly (as I knew they would) and I consider it some of the most valuable experience of my career as a software developer. I've told that to interviewers a number of times. If they don't get it, then I don't want to work for them.</p></div><p>Developers blame the project management and architects, architects blame the project management and developers, project management blames the architects and developers and everyone blames politics.  All the posts about how much you learned or how valuable the experience was is nice but the truth of the matter is that very few individuals have the introspection skills necessary or the broad view to see what true convergence of horrific behaviors and decisions led to the smoking crater that is the massive software project failure.
<br> <br>
The good thing is that with all this confusing and complexity it's extremely rare that anyone ever gets blamed for even their part in the failure much less the whole thing and while some folks might be blacklisted in a small enough company it's almost unheard of for anyone leadership through grunts to be blacklisted in an entire industry or even a big company.
<br> <br>
The bad news is that we rarely learn from our mistakes and large software projects continue to fail or succeed when the right random mix of situations and behaviors occur.  My first advice would be try to steer clear of massive big bang delivery waterfall type projects, they're ripe for breeding a convergence of bad things that lead to failure and while you won't be blacklisted but you'll still experience the suffering and frustration of a failing project.
<br> <br>
More practical advice for those of you who can't or don't want to avoid these situations is when one of these monstrosities fails be realistic.  You're working in a high risk environment for this type of failure.  A huge project with a team with more than 20 or worse 100 (or even worse 1000) people is courting failure.  When you experience failure certainly look at what other people did wrong but more importantly ask yourself, "given this high risk of failure environment what did I do that contributed to it".  We tend to see what other did to contribute and place an inordinate amount of blame on their behaviors and mistakes when in truth it is the convergence of a massive number of little mistakes that most often causes failure.  Any one of the problems alone wouldn't doom the project but the whole of their destructiveness is greater than the sum of the parts in this case.  If you can at least not contribute to that swirl of chaos you'll have done the best you can to help avert disaster.  Beyond that just prepare to be disappointed because these types of projects are hard and risky and they fail far too often.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been part of two large , high-profile projects that cratered spectacularly ( as I knew they would ) and I consider it some of the most valuable experience of my career as a software developer .
I 've told that to interviewers a number of times .
If they do n't get it , then I do n't want to work for them.Developers blame the project management and architects , architects blame the project management and developers , project management blames the architects and developers and everyone blames politics .
All the posts about how much you learned or how valuable the experience was is nice but the truth of the matter is that very few individuals have the introspection skills necessary or the broad view to see what true convergence of horrific behaviors and decisions led to the smoking crater that is the massive software project failure .
The good thing is that with all this confusing and complexity it 's extremely rare that anyone ever gets blamed for even their part in the failure much less the whole thing and while some folks might be blacklisted in a small enough company it 's almost unheard of for anyone leadership through grunts to be blacklisted in an entire industry or even a big company .
The bad news is that we rarely learn from our mistakes and large software projects continue to fail or succeed when the right random mix of situations and behaviors occur .
My first advice would be try to steer clear of massive big bang delivery waterfall type projects , they 're ripe for breeding a convergence of bad things that lead to failure and while you wo n't be blacklisted but you 'll still experience the suffering and frustration of a failing project .
More practical advice for those of you who ca n't or do n't want to avoid these situations is when one of these monstrosities fails be realistic .
You 're working in a high risk environment for this type of failure .
A huge project with a team with more than 20 or worse 100 ( or even worse 1000 ) people is courting failure .
When you experience failure certainly look at what other people did wrong but more importantly ask yourself , " given this high risk of failure environment what did I do that contributed to it " .
We tend to see what other did to contribute and place an inordinate amount of blame on their behaviors and mistakes when in truth it is the convergence of a massive number of little mistakes that most often causes failure .
Any one of the problems alone would n't doom the project but the whole of their destructiveness is greater than the sum of the parts in this case .
If you can at least not contribute to that swirl of chaos you 'll have done the best you can to help avert disaster .
Beyond that just prepare to be disappointed because these types of projects are hard and risky and they fail far too often .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been part of two large, high-profile projects that cratered spectacularly (as I knew they would) and I consider it some of the most valuable experience of my career as a software developer.
I've told that to interviewers a number of times.
If they don't get it, then I don't want to work for them.Developers blame the project management and architects, architects blame the project management and developers, project management blames the architects and developers and everyone blames politics.
All the posts about how much you learned or how valuable the experience was is nice but the truth of the matter is that very few individuals have the introspection skills necessary or the broad view to see what true convergence of horrific behaviors and decisions led to the smoking crater that is the massive software project failure.
The good thing is that with all this confusing and complexity it's extremely rare that anyone ever gets blamed for even their part in the failure much less the whole thing and while some folks might be blacklisted in a small enough company it's almost unheard of for anyone leadership through grunts to be blacklisted in an entire industry or even a big company.
The bad news is that we rarely learn from our mistakes and large software projects continue to fail or succeed when the right random mix of situations and behaviors occur.
My first advice would be try to steer clear of massive big bang delivery waterfall type projects, they're ripe for breeding a convergence of bad things that lead to failure and while you won't be blacklisted but you'll still experience the suffering and frustration of a failing project.
More practical advice for those of you who can't or don't want to avoid these situations is when one of these monstrosities fails be realistic.
You're working in a high risk environment for this type of failure.
A huge project with a team with more than 20 or worse 100 (or even worse 1000) people is courting failure.
When you experience failure certainly look at what other people did wrong but more importantly ask yourself, "given this high risk of failure environment what did I do that contributed to it".
We tend to see what other did to contribute and place an inordinate amount of blame on their behaviors and mistakes when in truth it is the convergence of a massive number of little mistakes that most often causes failure.
Any one of the problems alone wouldn't doom the project but the whole of their destructiveness is greater than the sum of the parts in this case.
If you can at least not contribute to that swirl of chaos you'll have done the best you can to help avert disaster.
Beyond that just prepare to be disappointed because these types of projects are hard and risky and they fail far too often.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28660927</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28665009</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe for some employers but probably not for m</title>
	<author>markov\_chain</author>
	<datestamp>1247327580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I concur with the parent, I was involved with the Challenger project but all I did was make some simple gaskets so no problems with rehiring.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I concur with the parent , I was involved with the Challenger project but all I did was make some simple gaskets so no problems with rehiring .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I concur with the parent, I was involved with the Challenger project but all I did was make some simple gaskets so no problems with rehiring.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28666023</id>
	<title>Re:What I'd do</title>
	<author>An Onerous Coward</author>
	<datestamp>1247390220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't think anybody is asking for the right to show up to a job and idle away the hours on Facebook.  The way to get out of a doomed project is to request a reassignment, or to look for another job.  Nor did he say that you should explicitly mention your career as the reason for your departure.</p><p>It's hard to say what signal you're sending by quitting in the middle of a doomed project.  Interviewers hear everything from "this guy takes pride in his work" to "quitter."  All you can do is try to spin your way to the former interpretation, and let the chips fall where they may.  If you can communicate the sentiment, "I'm generally loyal to my employer, but I do have my threshold for stupidity," and an employer takes that as a red flag, it's probably because they intend to exceed that threshold on a regular basis.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't think anybody is asking for the right to show up to a job and idle away the hours on Facebook .
The way to get out of a doomed project is to request a reassignment , or to look for another job .
Nor did he say that you should explicitly mention your career as the reason for your departure.It 's hard to say what signal you 're sending by quitting in the middle of a doomed project .
Interviewers hear everything from " this guy takes pride in his work " to " quitter .
" All you can do is try to spin your way to the former interpretation , and let the chips fall where they may .
If you can communicate the sentiment , " I 'm generally loyal to my employer , but I do have my threshold for stupidity , " and an employer takes that as a red flag , it 's probably because they intend to exceed that threshold on a regular basis .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't think anybody is asking for the right to show up to a job and idle away the hours on Facebook.
The way to get out of a doomed project is to request a reassignment, or to look for another job.
Nor did he say that you should explicitly mention your career as the reason for your departure.It's hard to say what signal you're sending by quitting in the middle of a doomed project.
Interviewers hear everything from "this guy takes pride in his work" to "quitter.
"  All you can do is try to spin your way to the former interpretation, and let the chips fall where they may.
If you can communicate the sentiment, "I'm generally loyal to my employer, but I do have my threshold for stupidity," and an employer takes that as a red flag, it's probably because they intend to exceed that threshold on a regular basis.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661165</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661521</id>
	<title>What normally happens</title>
	<author>Sadsfae</author>
	<datestamp>1247337360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>with expensive upper management/executive types is they do rove from company to company, doing the exact same thing they did at their previous job.</p><p>The notion that it might not work at a different organization never comes up or is questioned, they want be seen making large, sweeping changes.</p><p>An example would be shoving some mandate down the pipe like an open floorplan for "collaboration" which in most cases turns into a noisy, distracting work environment that just ends up impeding efficiency rather than enhancing it.</p><p>Because this was "so successful" at their last job, the lack of effectiveness at the present can easily be blamed on staff, culture, etc.</p><p>For larger, more destructive mandates these guys are usually out the door, resume in hand before the full catastrophic effects have been fully felt or realized.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>with expensive upper management/executive types is they do rove from company to company , doing the exact same thing they did at their previous job.The notion that it might not work at a different organization never comes up or is questioned , they want be seen making large , sweeping changes.An example would be shoving some mandate down the pipe like an open floorplan for " collaboration " which in most cases turns into a noisy , distracting work environment that just ends up impeding efficiency rather than enhancing it.Because this was " so successful " at their last job , the lack of effectiveness at the present can easily be blamed on staff , culture , etc.For larger , more destructive mandates these guys are usually out the door , resume in hand before the full catastrophic effects have been fully felt or realized .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>with expensive upper management/executive types is they do rove from company to company, doing the exact same thing they did at their previous job.The notion that it might not work at a different organization never comes up or is questioned, they want be seen making large, sweeping changes.An example would be shoving some mandate down the pipe like an open floorplan for "collaboration" which in most cases turns into a noisy, distracting work environment that just ends up impeding efficiency rather than enhancing it.Because this was "so successful" at their last job, the lack of effectiveness at the present can easily be blamed on staff, culture, etc.For larger, more destructive mandates these guys are usually out the door, resume in hand before the full catastrophic effects have been fully felt or realized.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661181</id>
	<title>Quitting is often worse than completing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247334840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While I work in a different industry it's also project based and the quality of the project will to some degree determine your next opportunities.  What I've found both as a a worker bee and later on in management is that even though the results of the project can have some influence over getting your next contract (I work in film vfx, so if the film looked bad it's harder to find something good to show other companies) not completing the project is much, much worse.  Companies want to know that you will stick with them and help them through a crisis rather than bailing on them mid-way through.</p><p>As a supervisor I take a close look at a person's end date on a project to see if they jumped ship half way through.  There are good reasons to leave part way, but one such as "I didn't like the way it was going" really isn't one of them unless the person could demonstrate specifically what was wrong and how they would have made it better.  In business you are paid to do the job asked of you in the best way possible.  If you are asked to do something you think is wrong then it's time to start making suggestions as to how to improve the task rather than running away from the situation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While I work in a different industry it 's also project based and the quality of the project will to some degree determine your next opportunities .
What I 've found both as a a worker bee and later on in management is that even though the results of the project can have some influence over getting your next contract ( I work in film vfx , so if the film looked bad it 's harder to find something good to show other companies ) not completing the project is much , much worse .
Companies want to know that you will stick with them and help them through a crisis rather than bailing on them mid-way through.As a supervisor I take a close look at a person 's end date on a project to see if they jumped ship half way through .
There are good reasons to leave part way , but one such as " I did n't like the way it was going " really is n't one of them unless the person could demonstrate specifically what was wrong and how they would have made it better .
In business you are paid to do the job asked of you in the best way possible .
If you are asked to do something you think is wrong then it 's time to start making suggestions as to how to improve the task rather than running away from the situation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I work in a different industry it's also project based and the quality of the project will to some degree determine your next opportunities.
What I've found both as a a worker bee and later on in management is that even though the results of the project can have some influence over getting your next contract (I work in film vfx, so if the film looked bad it's harder to find something good to show other companies) not completing the project is much, much worse.
Companies want to know that you will stick with them and help them through a crisis rather than bailing on them mid-way through.As a supervisor I take a close look at a person's end date on a project to see if they jumped ship half way through.
There are good reasons to leave part way, but one such as "I didn't like the way it was going" really isn't one of them unless the person could demonstrate specifically what was wrong and how they would have made it better.
In business you are paid to do the job asked of you in the best way possible.
If you are asked to do something you think is wrong then it's time to start making suggestions as to how to improve the task rather than running away from the situation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28664543</id>
	<title>Re:Just quit</title>
	<author>Kjella</author>
	<datestamp>1247319120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It sounds like you're confusing loyalty and professionalism with laziness. Personally if I'm hired to do a job I stick it out until the job is finished. Even if the project ends in spectacular failure, as long as I did my absolute best I stay until the job is done and I expect those I work with to do the same. Everyone works, no one quits.</p></div><p>For me you sound like two extremes on a scale and I think you're both wrong. Yes, if you quit the first time a project you're in is in trouble then you're a quitter. But if it's a huge project or it's a repeated problem, why do you want to inflict a death march project of on yourself? You know the kind where you know the project will be a failure even if your part is flawless. That kind of thing is just a soul-destroyer of morale, making you feel like you live in a Dilbert strip. If the company is just too stupid to cut their losses, are you supposed to loyally and blindly follow their stupidity? Draining every last paycheck before the project burns isn't exactly building confidence in the consultants that either, then you're just blamed for bleeding them dry and leaving them with crap. In fact, I'm quite sure I've heard more accusations of that than the opposite. Of all the reaosns a project fails, "horrible internal project mismanagement" is always the very last option if you got noone else to blame. Try to guide them through the rough waters, but if they insist on heading full speed like Titanic against the ice berg, then I say abandon ship. The honor of going down with the ship may gladly be left to the captain, not the crew.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It sounds like you 're confusing loyalty and professionalism with laziness .
Personally if I 'm hired to do a job I stick it out until the job is finished .
Even if the project ends in spectacular failure , as long as I did my absolute best I stay until the job is done and I expect those I work with to do the same .
Everyone works , no one quits.For me you sound like two extremes on a scale and I think you 're both wrong .
Yes , if you quit the first time a project you 're in is in trouble then you 're a quitter .
But if it 's a huge project or it 's a repeated problem , why do you want to inflict a death march project of on yourself ?
You know the kind where you know the project will be a failure even if your part is flawless .
That kind of thing is just a soul-destroyer of morale , making you feel like you live in a Dilbert strip .
If the company is just too stupid to cut their losses , are you supposed to loyally and blindly follow their stupidity ?
Draining every last paycheck before the project burns is n't exactly building confidence in the consultants that either , then you 're just blamed for bleeding them dry and leaving them with crap .
In fact , I 'm quite sure I 've heard more accusations of that than the opposite .
Of all the reaosns a project fails , " horrible internal project mismanagement " is always the very last option if you got noone else to blame .
Try to guide them through the rough waters , but if they insist on heading full speed like Titanic against the ice berg , then I say abandon ship .
The honor of going down with the ship may gladly be left to the captain , not the crew .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It sounds like you're confusing loyalty and professionalism with laziness.
Personally if I'm hired to do a job I stick it out until the job is finished.
Even if the project ends in spectacular failure, as long as I did my absolute best I stay until the job is done and I expect those I work with to do the same.
Everyone works, no one quits.For me you sound like two extremes on a scale and I think you're both wrong.
Yes, if you quit the first time a project you're in is in trouble then you're a quitter.
But if it's a huge project or it's a repeated problem, why do you want to inflict a death march project of on yourself?
You know the kind where you know the project will be a failure even if your part is flawless.
That kind of thing is just a soul-destroyer of morale, making you feel like you live in a Dilbert strip.
If the company is just too stupid to cut their losses, are you supposed to loyally and blindly follow their stupidity?
Draining every last paycheck before the project burns isn't exactly building confidence in the consultants that either, then you're just blamed for bleeding them dry and leaving them with crap.
In fact, I'm quite sure I've heard more accusations of that than the opposite.
Of all the reaosns a project fails, "horrible internal project mismanagement" is always the very last option if you got noone else to blame.
Try to guide them through the rough waters, but if they insist on heading full speed like Titanic against the ice berg, then I say abandon ship.
The honor of going down with the ship may gladly be left to the captain, not the crew.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662293</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662029</id>
	<title>maybe a little too stereotypical</title>
	<author>tommeke100</author>
	<datestamp>1247341560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This sounds a little too black and white.<br>
I'm sure projects aren't all 1-man operations (or 3- man operations for that matter) where everyone knows everything about the project.<br>
You could very well be part of a project where your sub-project is very successful yet other parts are the deal-breakers.<br>
For example, you could have been working on a very efficient GUI/web-interface that you could be proud of, yet the back-end guys totally f'ed up and made it unscalable.<br>
Or you could have been working on the database-end that kicks ass, but the business logic guys bombed.
Not every developer is supposed to know the status of the whole projects, sometimes you're just asked to design by contract, and that's what you do. And this doesn't necessarely means you're just a code-monkey. Like, they could just ask you to design and implement a piece of software that exposes a certain API with a couple of constraints you need to comply to, but everything behind it is your responability. THis doesn't mean you know the overall status of the project.<br> <br>

If the guy has the right credentials, I would just ask what he did on the project, why he thinks it failed, etc...<br>

a lesson lived is a lesson learned!</htmltext>
<tokenext>This sounds a little too black and white .
I 'm sure projects are n't all 1-man operations ( or 3- man operations for that matter ) where everyone knows everything about the project .
You could very well be part of a project where your sub-project is very successful yet other parts are the deal-breakers .
For example , you could have been working on a very efficient GUI/web-interface that you could be proud of , yet the back-end guys totally f'ed up and made it unscalable .
Or you could have been working on the database-end that kicks ass , but the business logic guys bombed .
Not every developer is supposed to know the status of the whole projects , sometimes you 're just asked to design by contract , and that 's what you do .
And this does n't necessarely means you 're just a code-monkey .
Like , they could just ask you to design and implement a piece of software that exposes a certain API with a couple of constraints you need to comply to , but everything behind it is your responability .
THis does n't mean you know the overall status of the project .
If the guy has the right credentials , I would just ask what he did on the project , why he thinks it failed , etc.. . a lesson lived is a lesson learned !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This sounds a little too black and white.
I'm sure projects aren't all 1-man operations (or 3- man operations for that matter) where everyone knows everything about the project.
You could very well be part of a project where your sub-project is very successful yet other parts are the deal-breakers.
For example, you could have been working on a very efficient GUI/web-interface that you could be proud of, yet the back-end guys totally f'ed up and made it unscalable.
Or you could have been working on the database-end that kicks ass, but the business logic guys bombed.
Not every developer is supposed to know the status of the whole projects, sometimes you're just asked to design by contract, and that's what you do.
And this doesn't necessarely means you're just a code-monkey.
Like, they could just ask you to design and implement a piece of software that exposes a certain API with a couple of constraints you need to comply to, but everything behind it is your responability.
THis doesn't mean you know the overall status of the project.
If the guy has the right credentials, I would just ask what he did on the project, why he thinks it failed, etc...

a lesson lived is a lesson learned!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661291</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662101</id>
	<title>Re:Lame Project Survival Kit</title>
	<author>JAlexoi</author>
	<datestamp>1247342040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well I make my career by joining late projects and doing everything to fix them.<br> Whenever I see that the project will fail in any case, I quote the project as a project where I have learned "How NOT to do things".<br>
And I can't complain about my career.<br>
On the positive side, the late projects have actually relaxed their rules to get the project completed. So I get into an environment that needs results fast and I can push through more innovative ideas through. Whereas, on a "on schedule" project, there is little space for innovative solutions.</div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well I make my career by joining late projects and doing everything to fix them .
Whenever I see that the project will fail in any case , I quote the project as a project where I have learned " How NOT to do things " .
And I ca n't complain about my career .
On the positive side , the late projects have actually relaxed their rules to get the project completed .
So I get into an environment that needs results fast and I can push through more innovative ideas through .
Whereas , on a " on schedule " project , there is little space for innovative solutions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well I make my career by joining late projects and doing everything to fix them.
Whenever I see that the project will fail in any case, I quote the project as a project where I have learned "How NOT to do things".
And I can't complain about my career.
On the positive side, the late projects have actually relaxed their rules to get the project completed.
So I get into an environment that needs results fast and I can push through more innovative ideas through.
Whereas, on a "on schedule" project, there is little space for innovative solutions.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661329</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661511</id>
	<title>Not a problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247337300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can always lie on your resume and explain the last couple of years as having served time in the state penitentiary.
</p><p>But seriously: I went into private practice as an engineer because of this. Not due to a single project. All of mine were quite successful, making them oddities at my old company. But the stink of that employer's reputation just won't come off a CV.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You can always lie on your resume and explain the last couple of years as having served time in the state penitentiary .
But seriously : I went into private practice as an engineer because of this .
Not due to a single project .
All of mine were quite successful , making them oddities at my old company .
But the stink of that employer 's reputation just wo n't come off a CV .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can always lie on your resume and explain the last couple of years as having served time in the state penitentiary.
But seriously: I went into private practice as an engineer because of this.
Not due to a single project.
All of mine were quite successful, making them oddities at my old company.
But the stink of that employer's reputation just won't come off a CV.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662387</id>
	<title>Re:Don't Worry!</title>
	<author>SanityInAnarchy</author>
	<datestamp>1247343840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd assume they're still working on Vista.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd assume they 're still working on Vista .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd assume they're still working on Vista.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661229</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662141</id>
	<title>Re:Just quit</title>
	<author>TheMCP</author>
	<datestamp>1247342340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I will hire people who worked on obviously doomed projects or for obviously doomed companies, and I don't mind if they stayed for the final meltdown. Heck, my dad turned off the lights and locked the door for the last time at a largeish corporation a few years ago after its meltdown. But, I will ask for and expect an explanation. If what I get is "oh it was so wonderful I don't understand how it could have gone wrong", I will be dubious about hiring the person, because it demonstrates that they are unrealistic or oblivious. If, on the other hand, I get a simple "I hadn't found a new job yet and I needed the money," I have no problem with that and would consider hiring the person.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I will hire people who worked on obviously doomed projects or for obviously doomed companies , and I do n't mind if they stayed for the final meltdown .
Heck , my dad turned off the lights and locked the door for the last time at a largeish corporation a few years ago after its meltdown .
But , I will ask for and expect an explanation .
If what I get is " oh it was so wonderful I do n't understand how it could have gone wrong " , I will be dubious about hiring the person , because it demonstrates that they are unrealistic or oblivious .
If , on the other hand , I get a simple " I had n't found a new job yet and I needed the money , " I have no problem with that and would consider hiring the person .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I will hire people who worked on obviously doomed projects or for obviously doomed companies, and I don't mind if they stayed for the final meltdown.
Heck, my dad turned off the lights and locked the door for the last time at a largeish corporation a few years ago after its meltdown.
But, I will ask for and expect an explanation.
If what I get is "oh it was so wonderful I don't understand how it could have gone wrong", I will be dubious about hiring the person, because it demonstrates that they are unrealistic or oblivious.
If, on the other hand, I get a simple "I hadn't found a new job yet and I needed the money," I have no problem with that and would consider hiring the person.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661291</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28663549</id>
	<title>Re:I cant imagine Windows ME is a great career boo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247309340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>However, learning from the mistakes of failed projects can actually increase your value, especially if the employer wants you to speak up.</p></div><p>One would think so but how about going in for a operation and the doctor saying "I killed my last patient but believe me I learned from that experience and won't make that mistake again".</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>However , learning from the mistakes of failed projects can actually increase your value , especially if the employer wants you to speak up.One would think so but how about going in for a operation and the doctor saying " I killed my last patient but believe me I learned from that experience and wo n't make that mistake again " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>However, learning from the mistakes of failed projects can actually increase your value, especially if the employer wants you to speak up.One would think so but how about going in for a operation and the doctor saying "I killed my last patient but believe me I learned from that experience and won't make that mistake again".
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661053</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662053</id>
	<title>Re:What I'd do</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247341680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's not ideal for your career but if you've come into a company where a very bad decision was made shortly before you came in and the project continually slides down the drain because any with talent gets fed up with being ignored then you do find it hard to stay on board.
<br> <br>
It is nice to see how far you can shine the turd and make the best of a bad situation but being out numbered by idiots makes it hard to see things through.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not ideal for your career but if you 've come into a company where a very bad decision was made shortly before you came in and the project continually slides down the drain because any with talent gets fed up with being ignored then you do find it hard to stay on board .
It is nice to see how far you can shine the turd and make the best of a bad situation but being out numbered by idiots makes it hard to see things through .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not ideal for your career but if you've come into a company where a very bad decision was made shortly before you came in and the project continually slides down the drain because any with talent gets fed up with being ignored then you do find it hard to stay on board.
It is nice to see how far you can shine the turd and make the best of a bad situation but being out numbered by idiots makes it hard to see things through.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661109</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28675845</id>
	<title>I worked for MER and C</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247498220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In each country where I have worked there has been a financial clusterfuck of monumental proportions.</p><p>Do you think I am really that important or would you be more willing to think it was just a coincidence?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In each country where I have worked there has been a financial clusterfuck of monumental proportions.Do you think I am really that important or would you be more willing to think it was just a coincidence ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In each country where I have worked there has been a financial clusterfuck of monumental proportions.Do you think I am really that important or would you be more willing to think it was just a coincidence?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28663633</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe for some employers but probably not for m</title>
	<author>ucanlookitup</author>
	<datestamp>1247310000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I tend to think most hiring managers are smart enough to know that it takes more than a few bad programmers to make a spectacular failure. Personally, as the manager, I'd ask about the project and listen carefully to the answer. It would tell me a lot about the person (perhaps more than a litany of successes). As a potential applicant, be prepared with an answer that shows you have an understanding of the whole project life cycle and not just your piece. Show that  you can critically evaluate the project without resorting to name calling or finger pointing. I don't think you have to worry about it being a career ender.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I tend to think most hiring managers are smart enough to know that it takes more than a few bad programmers to make a spectacular failure .
Personally , as the manager , I 'd ask about the project and listen carefully to the answer .
It would tell me a lot about the person ( perhaps more than a litany of successes ) .
As a potential applicant , be prepared with an answer that shows you have an understanding of the whole project life cycle and not just your piece .
Show that you can critically evaluate the project without resorting to name calling or finger pointing .
I do n't think you have to worry about it being a career ender .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I tend to think most hiring managers are smart enough to know that it takes more than a few bad programmers to make a spectacular failure.
Personally, as the manager, I'd ask about the project and listen carefully to the answer.
It would tell me a lot about the person (perhaps more than a litany of successes).
As a potential applicant, be prepared with an answer that shows you have an understanding of the whole project life cycle and not just your piece.
Show that  you can critically evaluate the project without resorting to name calling or finger pointing.
I don't think you have to worry about it being a career ender.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662047</id>
	<title>Re:Just quit</title>
	<author>JAlexoi</author>
	<datestamp>1247341680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Really, what about people with iron commitment, that do anything it takes to fix the project till the end? Are those kind of people bad?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Really , what about people with iron commitment , that do anything it takes to fix the project till the end ?
Are those kind of people bad ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Really, what about people with iron commitment, that do anything it takes to fix the project till the end?
Are those kind of people bad?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661291</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661445</id>
	<title>NT: Pfft just blame it on QA!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247336820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>NT</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>NT</tokentext>
<sentencetext>NT</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28663319</id>
	<title>Re:Lame Project Survival Kit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247307780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is honestly the best advice I think I've ever read on slashdot.  You should write a book.  I'm not kidding.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is honestly the best advice I think I 've ever read on slashdot .
You should write a book .
I 'm not kidding .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is honestly the best advice I think I've ever read on slashdot.
You should write a book.
I'm not kidding.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661329</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662317</id>
	<title>Re:Don't Worry!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247343360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Does janitorial work near the machine room count?<br>If so, I think we might have a few still employed in IT.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Does janitorial work near the machine room count ? If so , I think we might have a few still employed in IT .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does janitorial work near the machine room count?If so, I think we might have a few still employed in IT.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661229</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28712299</id>
	<title>Project/personal success only equate for leaders</title>
	<author>drew\_eckhardt</author>
	<datestamp>1247677200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As team lead with staffing control and sufficient resources, you're personally responsible for the project.</p><p>Without enough resources, quantifiable partial success (maybe internal use and a few external alpha customers before money runs out) is your duty.</p><p>Otherwise, project success is at best something you can influence.</p><p>When you're good you'll accomplish notable things (radical performance improvements, patents, the best test environment you've seen with the lowest cost to find and fix bugs,  novel external data structures) on almost any project (the notable exception is being stuck with whatever comes up next on the SCRUM burn-down list) and influence co-workers up, down, and side-ways in the org chart so they'll provide positive references.</p><p>What happened to an individual project as a whole isn't relevant, although being exposed to both successes (cradle to grave full-life cycle experience) and failures (better to learn from other people's mistakes than to make them first hand when you're responsible) is something to look for in candidates.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As team lead with staffing control and sufficient resources , you 're personally responsible for the project.Without enough resources , quantifiable partial success ( maybe internal use and a few external alpha customers before money runs out ) is your duty.Otherwise , project success is at best something you can influence.When you 're good you 'll accomplish notable things ( radical performance improvements , patents , the best test environment you 've seen with the lowest cost to find and fix bugs , novel external data structures ) on almost any project ( the notable exception is being stuck with whatever comes up next on the SCRUM burn-down list ) and influence co-workers up , down , and side-ways in the org chart so they 'll provide positive references.What happened to an individual project as a whole is n't relevant , although being exposed to both successes ( cradle to grave full-life cycle experience ) and failures ( better to learn from other people 's mistakes than to make them first hand when you 're responsible ) is something to look for in candidates .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As team lead with staffing control and sufficient resources, you're personally responsible for the project.Without enough resources, quantifiable partial success (maybe internal use and a few external alpha customers before money runs out) is your duty.Otherwise, project success is at best something you can influence.When you're good you'll accomplish notable things (radical performance improvements, patents, the best test environment you've seen with the lowest cost to find and fix bugs,  novel external data structures) on almost any project (the notable exception is being stuck with whatever comes up next on the SCRUM burn-down list) and influence co-workers up, down, and side-ways in the org chart so they'll provide positive references.What happened to an individual project as a whole isn't relevant, although being exposed to both successes (cradle to grave full-life cycle experience) and failures (better to learn from other people's mistakes than to make them first hand when you're responsible) is something to look for in candidates.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661997</id>
	<title>as a person that hires people...</title>
	<author>pjr.cc</author>
	<datestamp>1247341380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work for a reasonably small company, but i've also been asked by several of our clients (from small to mammoth) to help with the interview process for technical types. (Im in AU by the way, so may not be pertinent outside Australia).</p><p>The fact you may have come from a catastrophic failure really doesn't matter... There maybe some idle curiosity as to how it was "at the end", but in reality nothing matters as much as being able prove that:</p><p>1) you have the skill to do the job<br>2) you have the right attitude<br>3) other people are willing to say good things about you (i.e. references) and they are believable.</p><p>There's often very little you can assume/find out about a single persons involvement in a catastrophe. If they were there to the bitter end its either because they couldn't find a new job quick enough or because they were hoping to save the company (which are opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of an employee - but it could be a million other reasons too). The point im trying to make it that its impossible to know (from an employer perspective) what the reasons might have been and they rarely give much insight anyway. To some extent, the size of the company that folded can make it easier to figure out some facts, but its rarely a developers fault. Its often management/business decisions that result in the doom of a company.</p><p>All that aside, there are some things in the industry which are "more is better" and experience is probably the prime candidate. If you've been around for the end of a company, well thats something you have to your advantage as its an experience you have that perhaps alot of your possible competitors for a job may not. Simply put, as an employer if I had someone on my team that lost their job cause of a company collapse i'd certainly like to hear his views on where my company is heading (from a developers perspective).</p><p>Thats just my humble opinion, keep in mind almost all employers have different views on almost any subject. some may view your involvement in a catastrophe as a bad thing, but i personally don't know any.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work for a reasonably small company , but i 've also been asked by several of our clients ( from small to mammoth ) to help with the interview process for technical types .
( Im in AU by the way , so may not be pertinent outside Australia ) .The fact you may have come from a catastrophic failure really does n't matter... There maybe some idle curiosity as to how it was " at the end " , but in reality nothing matters as much as being able prove that : 1 ) you have the skill to do the job2 ) you have the right attitude3 ) other people are willing to say good things about you ( i.e .
references ) and they are believable.There 's often very little you can assume/find out about a single persons involvement in a catastrophe .
If they were there to the bitter end its either because they could n't find a new job quick enough or because they were hoping to save the company ( which are opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of an employee - but it could be a million other reasons too ) .
The point im trying to make it that its impossible to know ( from an employer perspective ) what the reasons might have been and they rarely give much insight anyway .
To some extent , the size of the company that folded can make it easier to figure out some facts , but its rarely a developers fault .
Its often management/business decisions that result in the doom of a company.All that aside , there are some things in the industry which are " more is better " and experience is probably the prime candidate .
If you 've been around for the end of a company , well thats something you have to your advantage as its an experience you have that perhaps alot of your possible competitors for a job may not .
Simply put , as an employer if I had someone on my team that lost their job cause of a company collapse i 'd certainly like to hear his views on where my company is heading ( from a developers perspective ) .Thats just my humble opinion , keep in mind almost all employers have different views on almost any subject .
some may view your involvement in a catastrophe as a bad thing , but i personally do n't know any .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work for a reasonably small company, but i've also been asked by several of our clients (from small to mammoth) to help with the interview process for technical types.
(Im in AU by the way, so may not be pertinent outside Australia).The fact you may have come from a catastrophic failure really doesn't matter... There maybe some idle curiosity as to how it was "at the end", but in reality nothing matters as much as being able prove that:1) you have the skill to do the job2) you have the right attitude3) other people are willing to say good things about you (i.e.
references) and they are believable.There's often very little you can assume/find out about a single persons involvement in a catastrophe.
If they were there to the bitter end its either because they couldn't find a new job quick enough or because they were hoping to save the company (which are opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of an employee - but it could be a million other reasons too).
The point im trying to make it that its impossible to know (from an employer perspective) what the reasons might have been and they rarely give much insight anyway.
To some extent, the size of the company that folded can make it easier to figure out some facts, but its rarely a developers fault.
Its often management/business decisions that result in the doom of a company.All that aside, there are some things in the industry which are "more is better" and experience is probably the prime candidate.
If you've been around for the end of a company, well thats something you have to your advantage as its an experience you have that perhaps alot of your possible competitors for a job may not.
Simply put, as an employer if I had someone on my team that lost their job cause of a company collapse i'd certainly like to hear his views on where my company is heading (from a developers perspective).Thats just my humble opinion, keep in mind almost all employers have different views on almost any subject.
some may view your involvement in a catastrophe as a bad thing, but i personally don't know any.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661291</id>
	<title>Just quit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247335560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are a professional.  When a project is truly doomed (i.e. the goal is pointless or no software could solve the problem,) just leave.  Internal transfer, join a new firm, etc, it doesn't matter:  just leave.  Collecting a paycheck to support a losing project is sign you are a loser.  Either fix the project or leave it.</p><p>I'm happy to hire people who have been on doomed projects, I avoid those who collected a pay-check until the final meltdown.  A programmer who quits a clusterfuck is an asset:  that's a clear warning sign to management that something is seriously screwed up.  A keep-plugging-away-as-Rome-burns guy is a net cost:  fire these guys first chance you get.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are a professional .
When a project is truly doomed ( i.e .
the goal is pointless or no software could solve the problem , ) just leave .
Internal transfer , join a new firm , etc , it does n't matter : just leave .
Collecting a paycheck to support a losing project is sign you are a loser .
Either fix the project or leave it.I 'm happy to hire people who have been on doomed projects , I avoid those who collected a pay-check until the final meltdown .
A programmer who quits a clusterfuck is an asset : that 's a clear warning sign to management that something is seriously screwed up .
A keep-plugging-away-as-Rome-burns guy is a net cost : fire these guys first chance you get .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are a professional.
When a project is truly doomed (i.e.
the goal is pointless or no software could solve the problem,) just leave.
Internal transfer, join a new firm, etc, it doesn't matter:  just leave.
Collecting a paycheck to support a losing project is sign you are a loser.
Either fix the project or leave it.I'm happy to hire people who have been on doomed projects, I avoid those who collected a pay-check until the final meltdown.
A programmer who quits a clusterfuck is an asset:  that's a clear warning sign to management that something is seriously screwed up.
A keep-plugging-away-as-Rome-burns guy is a net cost:  fire these guys first chance you get.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661483</id>
	<title>Inside, sure; outside, not really</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247337060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A project that failed due to bad executive decisions, can hurt an engineer's chances inside the same company. But other companies don't care so much.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A project that failed due to bad executive decisions , can hurt an engineer 's chances inside the same company .
But other companies do n't care so much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A project that failed due to bad executive decisions, can hurt an engineer's chances inside the same company.
But other companies don't care so much.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28660965</id>
	<title>Don't Worry!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247333580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm sure Windows 7 developers will still be employable after the October release.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sure Windows 7 developers will still be employable after the October release .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sure Windows 7 developers will still be employable after the October release.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28663953</id>
	<title>No excuse.</title>
	<author>crhylove</author>
	<datestamp>1247312880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm sorry, but there is not excuse for a bad release.  Zero.</p><p>Any decent software is Open Source, and has TONS of developers examining the code.  Further, as an Open Source program, there should be constant SVNs and betas for end users to test.</p><p>There is no reason for a bad release.  What is this 1987 and you are Microsoft?</p><p>Ludicrous.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sorry , but there is not excuse for a bad release .
Zero.Any decent software is Open Source , and has TONS of developers examining the code .
Further , as an Open Source program , there should be constant SVNs and betas for end users to test.There is no reason for a bad release .
What is this 1987 and you are Microsoft ? Ludicrous .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sorry, but there is not excuse for a bad release.
Zero.Any decent software is Open Source, and has TONS of developers examining the code.
Further, as an Open Source program, there should be constant SVNs and betas for end users to test.There is no reason for a bad release.
What is this 1987 and you are Microsoft?Ludicrous.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661309</id>
	<title>Project failure is not business failure</title>
	<author>holophrastic</author>
	<datestamp>1247335680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Keep in mind that when it comes to actual businesses, it's often better for a project to fail catastrophically in two months.</p><p>A project that is started, realized, and dead in two months costs two months of resources.  Compare that with the following:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; -  a project that takes a year of work to get off the ground, and then eventualyl fails after repeated attempts to make it profitable over another two years.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; -  a project that takes three years to become profitable</p><p>The former is not only a waste of money, it's a waste of time too.<br>The latter is profitable, but when considering the opportunity cost, many businesses look for faster, simpler, and lower resource-intensive projects.</p><p>The reason business-level executives can be rewarded for a failed project is because a smooth fast failure is a good thing is high-risk projects.</p><p>Realizing failure is just as important as realizing success -- when you've got other work to do too.</p><p>As for developers knowing earlier, I call zombie bullshit. Developers know when the product isn't great.  Business has always made successful projects from crummy products.</p><p>Also compare spending $N on a project over a year, versus spending the same $N on the same project over only a month.  In business, the latter is better -- why waste time.</p><p>But hey, we're all science-lovers here.  Look at business the way we look an scientific research.  If your experiment can be done faster, at the same or even a moderately increased cost, you get to results faster, and you get to do more experiments, and you get to move through more potential filliments before finally being able to invent that working lightbulb.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Keep in mind that when it comes to actual businesses , it 's often better for a project to fail catastrophically in two months.A project that is started , realized , and dead in two months costs two months of resources .
Compare that with the following :     - a project that takes a year of work to get off the ground , and then eventualyl fails after repeated attempts to make it profitable over another two years .
    - a project that takes three years to become profitableThe former is not only a waste of money , it 's a waste of time too.The latter is profitable , but when considering the opportunity cost , many businesses look for faster , simpler , and lower resource-intensive projects.The reason business-level executives can be rewarded for a failed project is because a smooth fast failure is a good thing is high-risk projects.Realizing failure is just as important as realizing success -- when you 've got other work to do too.As for developers knowing earlier , I call zombie bullshit .
Developers know when the product is n't great .
Business has always made successful projects from crummy products.Also compare spending $ N on a project over a year , versus spending the same $ N on the same project over only a month .
In business , the latter is better -- why waste time.But hey , we 're all science-lovers here .
Look at business the way we look an scientific research .
If your experiment can be done faster , at the same or even a moderately increased cost , you get to results faster , and you get to do more experiments , and you get to move through more potential filliments before finally being able to invent that working lightbulb .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Keep in mind that when it comes to actual businesses, it's often better for a project to fail catastrophically in two months.A project that is started, realized, and dead in two months costs two months of resources.
Compare that with the following:
    -  a project that takes a year of work to get off the ground, and then eventualyl fails after repeated attempts to make it profitable over another two years.
    -  a project that takes three years to become profitableThe former is not only a waste of money, it's a waste of time too.The latter is profitable, but when considering the opportunity cost, many businesses look for faster, simpler, and lower resource-intensive projects.The reason business-level executives can be rewarded for a failed project is because a smooth fast failure is a good thing is high-risk projects.Realizing failure is just as important as realizing success -- when you've got other work to do too.As for developers knowing earlier, I call zombie bullshit.
Developers know when the product isn't great.
Business has always made successful projects from crummy products.Also compare spending $N on a project over a year, versus spending the same $N on the same project over only a month.
In business, the latter is better -- why waste time.But hey, we're all science-lovers here.
Look at business the way we look an scientific research.
If your experiment can be done faster, at the same or even a moderately increased cost, you get to results faster, and you get to do more experiments, and you get to move through more potential filliments before finally being able to invent that working lightbulb.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662003</id>
	<title>Re:Lame Project Survival Kit</title>
	<author>sigmabody</author>
	<datestamp>1247341440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is great advice, IMHO, #1 especially. As a senior developer who has both switched companies a few times, and been responsible for trying to find other developers to hire, I have pulled in friends and colleges on many occasions, and I could get a good developer I knew from a previous company a job pretty easily (even today). The problem for people with other good developer friends is usually more that they don't live in the right place, and/or are already happily employed, and/or don't want to work at the particular company.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is great advice , IMHO , # 1 especially .
As a senior developer who has both switched companies a few times , and been responsible for trying to find other developers to hire , I have pulled in friends and colleges on many occasions , and I could get a good developer I knew from a previous company a job pretty easily ( even today ) .
The problem for people with other good developer friends is usually more that they do n't live in the right place , and/or are already happily employed , and/or do n't want to work at the particular company .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is great advice, IMHO, #1 especially.
As a senior developer who has both switched companies a few times, and been responsible for trying to find other developers to hire, I have pulled in friends and colleges on many occasions, and I could get a good developer I knew from a previous company a job pretty easily (even today).
The problem for people with other good developer friends is usually more that they don't live in the right place, and/or are already happily employed, and/or don't want to work at the particular company.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661329</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28665289</id>
	<title>Re:Quitting is often worse than completing</title>
	<author>Ritchie70</author>
	<datestamp>1247332020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The last few bosses I've had, I have told the same thing:</p><p><i>You pay me too much for me to sit quietly and do what I'm told. If you tell me to do something I think is stupid, I'm going to tell you, in no uncertain terms, that I think it is stupid, and exactly why I think it is stupid.<br>But I will also accept that there may be things going on that I don't know about, and if you tell me that you understand what I'm saying, but to proceed with the stupidity, then that's what I'm going to do, and I'll do my best to make it successful.</i></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The last few bosses I 've had , I have told the same thing : You pay me too much for me to sit quietly and do what I 'm told .
If you tell me to do something I think is stupid , I 'm going to tell you , in no uncertain terms , that I think it is stupid , and exactly why I think it is stupid.But I will also accept that there may be things going on that I do n't know about , and if you tell me that you understand what I 'm saying , but to proceed with the stupidity , then that 's what I 'm going to do , and I 'll do my best to make it successful .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The last few bosses I've had, I have told the same thing:You pay me too much for me to sit quietly and do what I'm told.
If you tell me to do something I think is stupid, I'm going to tell you, in no uncertain terms, that I think it is stupid, and exactly why I think it is stupid.But I will also accept that there may be things going on that I don't know about, and if you tell me that you understand what I'm saying, but to proceed with the stupidity, then that's what I'm going to do, and I'll do my best to make it successful.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661181</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28668685</id>
	<title>Re:What I'd do</title>
	<author>plopez</author>
	<datestamp>1247427060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Folks that quit in the middle of things are quitters.</i></p><p>What if it's a 13 year project? I'm serious. This project started in 1981 and was killed in 1994:<br><a href="http://www.baselinemag.com/c/a/Projects-Processes/The-Ugly-History-of-Tool-Development-at-the-FAA/" title="baselinemag.com">http://www.baselinemag.com/c/a/Projects-Processes/The-Ugly-History-of-Tool-Development-at-the-FAA/</a> [baselinemag.com]</p><p>Could you tough it out for 13 years? 10 years?</p><p>I've seen people burn out in 18 months of 6-7 day 50-70 hour weeks. I was one of them. I'm not sure if you have ever experienced one of these train wrecks. Get yourself involved in one and then let's talk.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Folks that quit in the middle of things are quitters.What if it 's a 13 year project ?
I 'm serious .
This project started in 1981 and was killed in 1994 : http : //www.baselinemag.com/c/a/Projects-Processes/The-Ugly-History-of-Tool-Development-at-the-FAA/ [ baselinemag.com ] Could you tough it out for 13 years ?
10 years ? I 've seen people burn out in 18 months of 6-7 day 50-70 hour weeks .
I was one of them .
I 'm not sure if you have ever experienced one of these train wrecks .
Get yourself involved in one and then let 's talk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Folks that quit in the middle of things are quitters.What if it's a 13 year project?
I'm serious.
This project started in 1981 and was killed in 1994:http://www.baselinemag.com/c/a/Projects-Processes/The-Ugly-History-of-Tool-Development-at-the-FAA/ [baselinemag.com]Could you tough it out for 13 years?
10 years?I've seen people burn out in 18 months of 6-7 day 50-70 hour weeks.
I was one of them.
I'm not sure if you have ever experienced one of these train wrecks.
Get yourself involved in one and then let's talk.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28665313</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28663673</id>
	<title>The low-hanging fruit.</title>
	<author>westlake</author>
	<datestamp>1247310360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>- a project that takes three years to become profitable</i> </p><p>This notion worries me a little. Because it suggests you are satisfied with picking the low-hanging fruit. The company with deep pockets and long term goals can be a brutally effective competitor - one that just might sweep up the best features of your niche product and weave them into his own before you can gain any traction.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>- a project that takes three years to become profitable This notion worries me a little .
Because it suggests you are satisfied with picking the low-hanging fruit .
The company with deep pockets and long term goals can be a brutally effective competitor - one that just might sweep up the best features of your niche product and weave them into his own before you can gain any traction .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>- a project that takes three years to become profitable This notion worries me a little.
Because it suggests you are satisfied with picking the low-hanging fruit.
The company with deep pockets and long term goals can be a brutally effective competitor - one that just might sweep up the best features of your niche product and weave them into his own before you can gain any traction.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661309</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28665055</id>
	<title>Re:Quitting is often worse than completing</title>
	<author>smellsofbikes</author>
	<datestamp>1247328240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>&gt;If you are asked to do something you think is wrong then it's time to start making suggestions as to how to improve the task rather than running away from the situation.<br> <br>

I have two friends who were fired for doing exactly this, which I think looks worse on your resume than quitting when you realize that your management has already decided to do something you think is a bad idea.</htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; If you are asked to do something you think is wrong then it 's time to start making suggestions as to how to improve the task rather than running away from the situation .
I have two friends who were fired for doing exactly this , which I think looks worse on your resume than quitting when you realize that your management has already decided to do something you think is a bad idea .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;If you are asked to do something you think is wrong then it's time to start making suggestions as to how to improve the task rather than running away from the situation.
I have two friends who were fired for doing exactly this, which I think looks worse on your resume than quitting when you realize that your management has already decided to do something you think is a bad idea.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661181</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662469</id>
	<title>Re:Lame Project Survival Kit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247344320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>6. Start humbly asking to buy the CEO lunch<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p></div><p>I work in a fairly big company.  I think I'd rather eat vomit from a shoe than have lunch with my CEO (grade "A" prick).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>6 .
Start humbly asking to buy the CEO lunch ...I work in a fairly big company .
I think I 'd rather eat vomit from a shoe than have lunch with my CEO ( grade " A " prick ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>6.
Start humbly asking to buy the CEO lunch ...I work in a fairly big company.
I think I'd rather eat vomit from a shoe than have lunch with my CEO (grade "A" prick).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661329</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28664027</id>
	<title>Re:People change jobs all the time</title>
	<author>ryen</author>
	<datestamp>1247313480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Bad programmers move on to do other things.  A guy may suck at programming and be perfectly fine in IT doing maintenance, <b>managerial duties</b>, or in an over priced big box electronics store selling some new electronic pieces of shit.</p></div><p>
There, fixed that for you.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Bad programmers move on to do other things .
A guy may suck at programming and be perfectly fine in IT doing maintenance , managerial duties , or in an over priced big box electronics store selling some new electronic pieces of shit .
There , fixed that for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bad programmers move on to do other things.
A guy may suck at programming and be perfectly fine in IT doing maintenance, managerial duties, or in an over priced big box electronics store selling some new electronic pieces of shit.
There, fixed that for you.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28660991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661055</id>
	<title>If executives made the bad decisions, say so</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247334240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is about the interview. Nobody is going to expect the grunt classifications to be making the big decisions.</p><p>Simple explanations of where you made design decisions and where you merely implemented poor design should suffice during the interview. Don't diss your previous managment. Try to remain objective in your descriptions.</p><p>In most cases, anyone with any time in the business will have gone through a litany of death marches and will completely understand your history.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is about the interview .
Nobody is going to expect the grunt classifications to be making the big decisions.Simple explanations of where you made design decisions and where you merely implemented poor design should suffice during the interview .
Do n't diss your previous managment .
Try to remain objective in your descriptions.In most cases , anyone with any time in the business will have gone through a litany of death marches and will completely understand your history .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is about the interview.
Nobody is going to expect the grunt classifications to be making the big decisions.Simple explanations of where you made design decisions and where you merely implemented poor design should suffice during the interview.
Don't diss your previous managment.
Try to remain objective in your descriptions.In most cases, anyone with any time in the business will have gone through a litany of death marches and will completely understand your history.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661233</id>
	<title>Re:What I'd do</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247335260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Tell that to Sarah Palin.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Tell that to Sarah Palin .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Tell that to Sarah Palin.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661109</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28665935</id>
	<title>Re:Don't Worry!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247431320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We sentenced them to doing the maintenance releases and patches for it.  Harsh, I know, but the punishment has to fit the crime.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We sentenced them to doing the maintenance releases and patches for it .
Harsh , I know , but the punishment has to fit the crime .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We sentenced them to doing the maintenance releases and patches for it.
Harsh, I know, but the punishment has to fit the crime.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661229</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661247</id>
	<title>Maybe for some employers but probably not for most</title>
	<author>nahdude812</author>
	<datestamp>1247335320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's certainly possible that for some employers they'd hear you worked on Project X which failed spectacularly, and so they'd want to avoid hiring you.  But I'd wager for most employers this isn't a black mark against you unless for some reason you have demonstrably substantial culpability in its failure.  Maybe if you had 3 or 4 big failures I'd start to wonder if there was a pattern.  But even then I'd ask you why those projects failed, and depending on your answer, this might actually make me more likely to hire you.  For example, if you could give me a thoughtful analysis of what went wrong in each case, and could give good thoughts on things which might be done to avoid those mistakes in the future, maybe you have the insights necessary to help my team avoid a similar mistake in the future.</p><p>The only things I can think of that would make me not want to hire you (based on association with a specific project) is if you put on your resume that you were the lead developer, project leader, etc... or if the project failed for a very specific reason and I knew you were the cause (such as if you were successfully prosecuted for coding a back door into the project, etc).</p><p>There were a lot of excellent crew on the Titanic; the crew of the Challenger disaster were not responsible for its failure.  Just because you're associated with a catastrophe doesn't mean you did anything wrong.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's certainly possible that for some employers they 'd hear you worked on Project X which failed spectacularly , and so they 'd want to avoid hiring you .
But I 'd wager for most employers this is n't a black mark against you unless for some reason you have demonstrably substantial culpability in its failure .
Maybe if you had 3 or 4 big failures I 'd start to wonder if there was a pattern .
But even then I 'd ask you why those projects failed , and depending on your answer , this might actually make me more likely to hire you .
For example , if you could give me a thoughtful analysis of what went wrong in each case , and could give good thoughts on things which might be done to avoid those mistakes in the future , maybe you have the insights necessary to help my team avoid a similar mistake in the future.The only things I can think of that would make me not want to hire you ( based on association with a specific project ) is if you put on your resume that you were the lead developer , project leader , etc... or if the project failed for a very specific reason and I knew you were the cause ( such as if you were successfully prosecuted for coding a back door into the project , etc ) .There were a lot of excellent crew on the Titanic ; the crew of the Challenger disaster were not responsible for its failure .
Just because you 're associated with a catastrophe does n't mean you did anything wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's certainly possible that for some employers they'd hear you worked on Project X which failed spectacularly, and so they'd want to avoid hiring you.
But I'd wager for most employers this isn't a black mark against you unless for some reason you have demonstrably substantial culpability in its failure.
Maybe if you had 3 or 4 big failures I'd start to wonder if there was a pattern.
But even then I'd ask you why those projects failed, and depending on your answer, this might actually make me more likely to hire you.
For example, if you could give me a thoughtful analysis of what went wrong in each case, and could give good thoughts on things which might be done to avoid those mistakes in the future, maybe you have the insights necessary to help my team avoid a similar mistake in the future.The only things I can think of that would make me not want to hire you (based on association with a specific project) is if you put on your resume that you were the lead developer, project leader, etc... or if the project failed for a very specific reason and I knew you were the cause (such as if you were successfully prosecuted for coding a back door into the project, etc).There were a lot of excellent crew on the Titanic; the crew of the Challenger disaster were not responsible for its failure.
Just because you're associated with a catastrophe doesn't mean you did anything wrong.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662293</id>
	<title>Re:Just quit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247343240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>You are a professional. When a project is truly doomed (i.e. the goal is pointless or no software could solve the problem,) just leave.</p></div></blockquote><p>You're obviously a Highly Paid Consultant who could care less what happens to the project or what the client thinks.  It's people like you who give developers (and consultants in particular) a bad rap.</p><blockquote><div><p>Collecting a paycheck to support a losing project is sign you are a loser.</p></div></blockquote><p>Or they at least have the balls to stick it out until the bitter end, which (if your post is at all accurate) can't be said for you.</p><blockquote><div><p>I'm happy to hire people who have been on doomed projects, I avoid those who collected a pay-check until the final meltdown.</p></div></blockquote><p>Please, what company do you work for so I know who to avoid?</p><blockquote><div><p>A programmer who quits a clusterfuck is an asset</p></div></blockquote><p>Or a quitter, i.e. someone I wouldn't care to work with.</p><p>It sounds like you're confusing loyalty and professionalism with laziness.  Personally if I'm hired to do a job I stick it out until the job is finished.  Even if the project ends in spectacular failure, as long as I did my absolute best I stay until the job is done and I expect those I work with to do the same.  Everyone works, no one quits.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You are a professional .
When a project is truly doomed ( i.e .
the goal is pointless or no software could solve the problem , ) just leave.You 're obviously a Highly Paid Consultant who could care less what happens to the project or what the client thinks .
It 's people like you who give developers ( and consultants in particular ) a bad rap.Collecting a paycheck to support a losing project is sign you are a loser.Or they at least have the balls to stick it out until the bitter end , which ( if your post is at all accurate ) ca n't be said for you.I 'm happy to hire people who have been on doomed projects , I avoid those who collected a pay-check until the final meltdown.Please , what company do you work for so I know who to avoid ? A programmer who quits a clusterfuck is an assetOr a quitter , i.e .
someone I would n't care to work with.It sounds like you 're confusing loyalty and professionalism with laziness .
Personally if I 'm hired to do a job I stick it out until the job is finished .
Even if the project ends in spectacular failure , as long as I did my absolute best I stay until the job is done and I expect those I work with to do the same .
Everyone works , no one quits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are a professional.
When a project is truly doomed (i.e.
the goal is pointless or no software could solve the problem,) just leave.You're obviously a Highly Paid Consultant who could care less what happens to the project or what the client thinks.
It's people like you who give developers (and consultants in particular) a bad rap.Collecting a paycheck to support a losing project is sign you are a loser.Or they at least have the balls to stick it out until the bitter end, which (if your post is at all accurate) can't be said for you.I'm happy to hire people who have been on doomed projects, I avoid those who collected a pay-check until the final meltdown.Please, what company do you work for so I know who to avoid?A programmer who quits a clusterfuck is an assetOr a quitter, i.e.
someone I wouldn't care to work with.It sounds like you're confusing loyalty and professionalism with laziness.
Personally if I'm hired to do a job I stick it out until the job is finished.
Even if the project ends in spectacular failure, as long as I did my absolute best I stay until the job is done and I expect those I work with to do the same.
Everyone works, no one quits.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661291</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28665393</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe for some employers but probably not for m</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1247333460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>But even then I'd ask you why those projects failed, and depending on your answer, this might actually make me more likely to hire you.</p></div><p>...</p><p><div class="quote"><p>There were a lot of excellent crew on the Titanic; the crew of the Challenger disaster were not responsible for its failure. Just because you're associated with a catastrophe doesn't mean you did anything wrong.</p></div><p>So basically you're saying that you don't mind an office full of zombies, right?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>But even then I 'd ask you why those projects failed , and depending on your answer , this might actually make me more likely to hire you....There were a lot of excellent crew on the Titanic ; the crew of the Challenger disaster were not responsible for its failure .
Just because you 're associated with a catastrophe does n't mean you did anything wrong.So basically you 're saying that you do n't mind an office full of zombies , right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But even then I'd ask you why those projects failed, and depending on your answer, this might actually make me more likely to hire you....There were a lot of excellent crew on the Titanic; the crew of the Challenger disaster were not responsible for its failure.
Just because you're associated with a catastrophe doesn't mean you did anything wrong.So basically you're saying that you don't mind an office full of zombies, right?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661247</parent>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_07_11_1555235_4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28666023
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661165
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661001
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_07_11_1555235_37</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28694073
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28663953
</commentlist>
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_07_11_1555235_13</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28690801
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661205
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28660927
</commentlist>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_07_11_1555235_36</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28663493
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661173
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_07_11_1555235_15</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28665935
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661229
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</commentlist>
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_07_11_1555235_38</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661387
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661109
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28661001
</commentlist>
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_07_11_1555235_43</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28664037
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</commentlist>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_07_11_1555235_14</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28665055
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_07_11_1555235_35</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_11_1555235.28662163
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