<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_07_04_021218</id>
	<title>Massive Bank Fraud In <em>EVE Online</em></title>
	<author>Soulskill</author>
	<datestamp>1246719900000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>djconrad was one of several readers to point out the latest major scandal in <em>EVE Online</em>, the space MMO notable for its large, player-driven economy and the entertaining stories it often generates. A player named Ricdic, chairman of a large in-game bank, decided to <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8132547.stm">embezzle roughly 200 billion ISK</a> (the game's currency). Ricdic exchanged the ISK for about $5,000 to pay off real-life debts. Massively has an in-depth write-up about <a href="http://www.massively.com/2009/07/02/new-perspective-on-eve-onlines-latest-bank-embezzlement/">how the theft affects the game and its players</a>. Since the scandal became public, there's been a run on the virtual bank, and its executives are <a href="http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&amp;threadID=1094517">doing what they can to reassure people</a> that it will continue to exist. Ricdic was banned, not for the embezzlement, but for trading 200 billion ISK for real currency, which is forbidden by <em>EVE's</em> EULA.</htmltext>
<tokenext>djconrad was one of several readers to point out the latest major scandal in EVE Online , the space MMO notable for its large , player-driven economy and the entertaining stories it often generates .
A player named Ricdic , chairman of a large in-game bank , decided to embezzle roughly 200 billion ISK ( the game 's currency ) .
Ricdic exchanged the ISK for about $ 5,000 to pay off real-life debts .
Massively has an in-depth write-up about how the theft affects the game and its players .
Since the scandal became public , there 's been a run on the virtual bank , and its executives are doing what they can to reassure people that it will continue to exist .
Ricdic was banned , not for the embezzlement , but for trading 200 billion ISK for real currency , which is forbidden by EVE 's EULA .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>djconrad was one of several readers to point out the latest major scandal in EVE Online, the space MMO notable for its large, player-driven economy and the entertaining stories it often generates.
A player named Ricdic, chairman of a large in-game bank, decided to embezzle roughly 200 billion ISK (the game's currency).
Ricdic exchanged the ISK for about $5,000 to pay off real-life debts.
Massively has an in-depth write-up about how the theft affects the game and its players.
Since the scandal became public, there's been a run on the virtual bank, and its executives are doing what they can to reassure people that it will continue to exist.
Ricdic was banned, not for the embezzlement, but for trading 200 billion ISK for real currency, which is forbidden by EVE's EULA.</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577659</id>
	<title>Madoff strikes again!</title>
	<author>ar1550</author>
	<datestamp>1246641660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Wow, I didn't realize that federal inmates were allowed to play Eve!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow , I did n't realize that federal inmates were allowed to play Eve !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow, I didn't realize that federal inmates were allowed to play Eve!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577323</id>
	<title>Ricdic was banned...</title>
	<author>countertrolling</author>
	<datestamp>1246637760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh yeah! That'll work. And just how many accounts you think the guy has that's doing the very same thing right now? His new name? Likdik... Life - Art... which is more real?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh yeah !
That 'll work .
And just how many accounts you think the guy has that 's doing the very same thing right now ?
His new name ?
Likdik... Life - Art... which is more real ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh yeah!
That'll work.
And just how many accounts you think the guy has that's doing the very same thing right now?
His new name?
Likdik... Life - Art... which is more real?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577309</id>
	<title>Slow news day?</title>
	<author>zergl</author>
	<datestamp>1246637640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=26880" title="scrapheap-challenge.com">It happened early June already</a> [scrapheap-challenge.com], though it apparently took quite a while for it to propagate to the mainstream news.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It happened early June already [ scrapheap-challenge.com ] , though it apparently took quite a while for it to propagate to the mainstream news .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It happened early June already [scrapheap-challenge.com], though it apparently took quite a while for it to propagate to the mainstream news.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577373</id>
	<title>In my head:</title>
	<author>Alzheimers</author>
	<datestamp>1246638180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Kneejerk response #1: This jerk is why we're all going to have to pay income taxes on our MMO loot someday.</p><p>Kneejerk response #2: Finally!  The solution to the health care crisis...Gold Sellers!</p><p>Kneejerk response #3: You're only jealous you didn't think of it first.</p><p>-----------------</p><p>My Final Conclusion:  I just hope his kid is getting better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Kneejerk response # 1 : This jerk is why we 're all going to have to pay income taxes on our MMO loot someday.Kneejerk response # 2 : Finally !
The solution to the health care crisis...Gold Sellers ! Kneejerk response # 3 : You 're only jealous you did n't think of it first.-----------------My Final Conclusion : I just hope his kid is getting better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Kneejerk response #1: This jerk is why we're all going to have to pay income taxes on our MMO loot someday.Kneejerk response #2: Finally!
The solution to the health care crisis...Gold Sellers!Kneejerk response #3: You're only jealous you didn't think of it first.-----------------My Final Conclusion:  I just hope his kid is getting better.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577313</id>
	<title>Just you wait...</title>
	<author>SchizoStatic</author>
	<datestamp>1246637700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>He probably has a job lined up now as a normal bank exec or a job in government.</htmltext>
<tokenext>He probably has a job lined up now as a normal bank exec or a job in government .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He probably has a job lined up now as a normal bank exec or a job in government.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28581783</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting and Boring at the Same Time</title>
	<author>Stephenmg</author>
	<datestamp>1246736520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>EVE takes a while to get into. Its sand box nature that allows these scams and heist is what makes it fun. Personally, I find the battles in the outlands fun. Especially when 200 capitals die. <a href="http://www.eveonline.com/mb/news.asp?nid=3163" title="eveonline.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.eveonline.com/mb/news.asp?nid=3163</a> [eveonline.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>EVE takes a while to get into .
Its sand box nature that allows these scams and heist is what makes it fun .
Personally , I find the battles in the outlands fun .
Especially when 200 capitals die .
http : //www.eveonline.com/mb/news.asp ? nid = 3163 [ eveonline.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>EVE takes a while to get into.
Its sand box nature that allows these scams and heist is what makes it fun.
Personally, I find the battles in the outlands fun.
Especially when 200 capitals die.
http://www.eveonline.com/mb/news.asp?nid=3163 [eveonline.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577335</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578773</id>
	<title>Re:Slow news day?</title>
	<author>bogjobber</author>
	<datestamp>1246701300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p><i>Because people are inherently honest. Dishonesty is an abnormality.</i></p></div>  </blockquote><p>That's true to a certain extent, but I would add a large caveat.  People are honest when they know obeying the social norms will be rewarded, and there is a real chance of being caught or punished for their dishonesty.  Most people don't steal, but if a situation like the article describes occurred in meatspace, people would be stealing like crazy.</p><p>The trust can't co-exist without strict societal rules that reward cooperation and discourage selfishness.  That's why in game theory problems like the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's\_dilemma" title="wikipedia.org">prisoner's dilemma</a> [wikipedia.org], people will try to help themselves at the detriment to their partner, even though the optimal solution is to cooperate.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Because people are inherently honest .
Dishonesty is an abnormality .
That 's true to a certain extent , but I would add a large caveat .
People are honest when they know obeying the social norms will be rewarded , and there is a real chance of being caught or punished for their dishonesty .
Most people do n't steal , but if a situation like the article describes occurred in meatspace , people would be stealing like crazy.The trust ca n't co-exist without strict societal rules that reward cooperation and discourage selfishness .
That 's why in game theory problems like the prisoner 's dilemma [ wikipedia.org ] , people will try to help themselves at the detriment to their partner , even though the optimal solution is to cooperate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because people are inherently honest.
Dishonesty is an abnormality.
That's true to a certain extent, but I would add a large caveat.
People are honest when they know obeying the social norms will be rewarded, and there is a real chance of being caught or punished for their dishonesty.
Most people don't steal, but if a situation like the article describes occurred in meatspace, people would be stealing like crazy.The trust can't co-exist without strict societal rules that reward cooperation and discourage selfishness.
That's why in game theory problems like the prisoner's dilemma [wikipedia.org], people will try to help themselves at the detriment to their partner, even though the optimal solution is to cooperate.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577779</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578033</id>
	<title>Re:A Bit of a Puzzle</title>
	<author>GryMor</author>
	<datestamp>1246646580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>EVE moves faster than real life, being a game, getting a basic income is easy through a variety of means (mining, piracy, manufacturing, bounties and, in this case trade). Proper management of capital can trivially have returns of 10\% a month with almost no work or 100\% in a few days on the market with a lot of work.</p><p>This is coupled with high risk, but it's in game risk. Even wiped back to 0 you can recover back to 'normal player' levels radiatively quickly. If you took the kind of risks that are normal in game in real life, you would lose people their life's savings.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>EVE moves faster than real life , being a game , getting a basic income is easy through a variety of means ( mining , piracy , manufacturing , bounties and , in this case trade ) .
Proper management of capital can trivially have returns of 10 \ % a month with almost no work or 100 \ % in a few days on the market with a lot of work.This is coupled with high risk , but it 's in game risk .
Even wiped back to 0 you can recover back to 'normal player ' levels radiatively quickly .
If you took the kind of risks that are normal in game in real life , you would lose people their life 's savings .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>EVE moves faster than real life, being a game, getting a basic income is easy through a variety of means (mining, piracy, manufacturing, bounties and, in this case trade).
Proper management of capital can trivially have returns of 10\% a month with almost no work or 100\% in a few days on the market with a lot of work.This is coupled with high risk, but it's in game risk.
Even wiped back to 0 you can recover back to 'normal player' levels radiatively quickly.
If you took the kind of risks that are normal in game in real life, you would lose people their life's savings.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578267</id>
	<title>Re:Good advert for Eve...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246649760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Take for example World of Warcraft, you have gold, and you can trade. But you'd never have real businesses exist because the game just doesn't work that way, let alone banks.</i></p><p>Which is fine because you'd have to be a complete moron to trust another player with your money which is essentially what this bank in EVE is.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Take for example World of Warcraft , you have gold , and you can trade .
But you 'd never have real businesses exist because the game just does n't work that way , let alone banks.Which is fine because you 'd have to be a complete moron to trust another player with your money which is essentially what this bank in EVE is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Take for example World of Warcraft, you have gold, and you can trade.
But you'd never have real businesses exist because the game just doesn't work that way, let alone banks.Which is fine because you'd have to be a complete moron to trust another player with your money which is essentially what this bank in EVE is.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577349</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578735</id>
	<title>Re:Good advert for Eve...</title>
	<author>Dr. Impossible</author>
	<datestamp>1246700700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I mean all games have some kind of monetary system and by extension a way to trade money for goods. But very few are able to recreate the real world so closely.</p></div></blockquote><p>That's because no sane person wants to recreate their daily existence in a video game. Video games are (meant to be) escapism and entertainment.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I mean all games have some kind of monetary system and by extension a way to trade money for goods .
But very few are able to recreate the real world so closely.That 's because no sane person wants to recreate their daily existence in a video game .
Video games are ( meant to be ) escapism and entertainment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I mean all games have some kind of monetary system and by extension a way to trade money for goods.
But very few are able to recreate the real world so closely.That's because no sane person wants to recreate their daily existence in a video game.
Video games are (meant to be) escapism and entertainment.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577349</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28581139</id>
	<title>Re:Slow news day?</title>
	<author>thenextstevejobs</author>
	<datestamp>1246731180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That's what happens when there's no real world consequences for your behavior (or you think you can avoid them).</p></div><p> Everyone forgetting how often this happens in real life suddenly? </p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's what happens when there 's no real world consequences for your behavior ( or you think you can avoid them ) .
Everyone forgetting how often this happens in real life suddenly ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's what happens when there's no real world consequences for your behavior (or you think you can avoid them).
Everyone forgetting how often this happens in real life suddenly? 
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577327</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577359</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe these companies will wake up some day</title>
	<author>zergl</author>
	<datestamp>1246638000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>CCP already has something like that in place in EVE Online.</p><p>You can buy a GTC (Game Time Code) and directly sell it to other players for ISK (ingame money) through a secured official system on the website or convert it into a <a href="http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/30\_days\_Concord\_Pilot\_License\_Extension" title="eveonline.com">in-game tradeable item called Pilot License EXtension (PLEX)</a> [eveonline.com].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>CCP already has something like that in place in EVE Online.You can buy a GTC ( Game Time Code ) and directly sell it to other players for ISK ( ingame money ) through a secured official system on the website or convert it into a in-game tradeable item called Pilot License EXtension ( PLEX ) [ eveonline.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>CCP already has something like that in place in EVE Online.You can buy a GTC (Game Time Code) and directly sell it to other players for ISK (ingame money) through a secured official system on the website or convert it into a in-game tradeable item called Pilot License EXtension (PLEX) [eveonline.com].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577311</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28581605</id>
	<title>Re:Slow news day?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246734720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Should it be illegal to scam people in the game ?</p></div><p>Nope...  In EVE, scamming = social PVP</p><p>As has been already stated elsewhere in comments, the only reason he got banned was the RMT.  There have been larger isk value heists that didn't even draw a blink from CCP, because it was all kept in-game.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Should it be illegal to scam people in the game ? Nope... In EVE , scamming = social PVPAs has been already stated elsewhere in comments , the only reason he got banned was the RMT .
There have been larger isk value heists that did n't even draw a blink from CCP , because it was all kept in-game .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Should it be illegal to scam people in the game ?Nope...  In EVE, scamming = social PVPAs has been already stated elsewhere in comments, the only reason he got banned was the RMT.
There have been larger isk value heists that didn't even draw a blink from CCP, because it was all kept in-game.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578971</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578099</id>
	<title>Obvious....</title>
	<author>raehl</author>
	<datestamp>1246647360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>What I'm always struck by is that if you're capable of finagling all these things in the game, what's stopping you from doing it in real life?</i></p><p>Body odor.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What I 'm always struck by is that if you 're capable of finagling all these things in the game , what 's stopping you from doing it in real life ? Body odor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What I'm always struck by is that if you're capable of finagling all these things in the game, what's stopping you from doing it in real life?Body odor.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577335</id>
	<title>Interesting and Boring at the Same Time</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246637880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>EVE continues to be an interesting study in politics and intrigue but I will forever fail to understand its appeal as an MMO. I've tried playing it - it totally does not appeal to me in any way, what-so-ever. It was about as dreadfully boring as a game could possibly be without being nothing at all. In my opinion. But, its political backstabbings and manipulations of its systems sure as hell generate some interesting stories... Intensely interesting and dreadfully boring at the same time.</htmltext>
<tokenext>EVE continues to be an interesting study in politics and intrigue but I will forever fail to understand its appeal as an MMO .
I 've tried playing it - it totally does not appeal to me in any way , what-so-ever .
It was about as dreadfully boring as a game could possibly be without being nothing at all .
In my opinion .
But , its political backstabbings and manipulations of its systems sure as hell generate some interesting stories... Intensely interesting and dreadfully boring at the same time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>EVE continues to be an interesting study in politics and intrigue but I will forever fail to understand its appeal as an MMO.
I've tried playing it - it totally does not appeal to me in any way, what-so-ever.
It was about as dreadfully boring as a game could possibly be without being nothing at all.
In my opinion.
But, its political backstabbings and manipulations of its systems sure as hell generate some interesting stories... Intensely interesting and dreadfully boring at the same time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28580649</id>
	<title>You misrepresent game theory</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246727220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It's this very fact that pisses game theorists off to no end -- agents in the system continue to act completely irrationally (ie, to trust) when the rules clearly indicate every advantage for the "cheater" and next to no consequences.</p></div><p>I work using game theory to model international relations.  This is not at all a problem for game theory; in fact, game theory tends to presuppose that trust is the default choice and treachery is the abnormality. Your hypothesis of some inherent human altruism as being more explicative of human behavior than game theory is bunk.
<br> <br>
Your problem is that you only understand game theory in its most basic form: a single round game with four possible outcomes.  In this configuration, it is true that it is best to cheat, but this does not model anything in the real world and game theorists don't use it; this is just the introductory version that we give to students who are unlikely to ever actually use it.
<br> <br>
What is more realistic is to suppose games of many rounds between the same players. In this case, players will not cheat because they know that if they do that, their partner will also cheat in the next round and it costs more in the long run.  This conception works out pretty well in empirical testing: experiments show that students playing multi-round versions of the prisoner's dilemma for cash rewards will not cheat until the last round, when they tend to cheat.  If they play a single round, whether they cheat seems to vary depending on the environment that the experiment is conducted in.  If they don't know how many rounds they will play, they almost never cheat.
<br> <br>

As part of my master's thesis, I ran that last situation: in over 400 rounds of the game between 80 participants, I had exactly one cheater, which was perfectly in line with what the theory predicted.
<br> <br>
Today, game theorists mostly work on how cycles of trust work.  For example, as I mentioned above, if one player cheats once, then his partner will cheat the next round.  Both players will move into the mindset of minimizing damage and cheat consistently.  To break out of this, you need to introduce communication and small stake games to rebuild the trust cycle.
<br> <br>

The problem with game theory is not some inherent human tendency to honesty as you claim, but that it supposes that the players have perfect knowledge, which people don't in the real world. Ambiguity leads to less risk taking, which leads people to avoid cheating, even in single round situations.  Another shortcoming is that it is very difficult to build games that are complex enough to model the real world, but again, this has nothing to do with your hypothesis.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's this very fact that pisses game theorists off to no end -- agents in the system continue to act completely irrationally ( ie , to trust ) when the rules clearly indicate every advantage for the " cheater " and next to no consequences.I work using game theory to model international relations .
This is not at all a problem for game theory ; in fact , game theory tends to presuppose that trust is the default choice and treachery is the abnormality .
Your hypothesis of some inherent human altruism as being more explicative of human behavior than game theory is bunk .
Your problem is that you only understand game theory in its most basic form : a single round game with four possible outcomes .
In this configuration , it is true that it is best to cheat , but this does not model anything in the real world and game theorists do n't use it ; this is just the introductory version that we give to students who are unlikely to ever actually use it .
What is more realistic is to suppose games of many rounds between the same players .
In this case , players will not cheat because they know that if they do that , their partner will also cheat in the next round and it costs more in the long run .
This conception works out pretty well in empirical testing : experiments show that students playing multi-round versions of the prisoner 's dilemma for cash rewards will not cheat until the last round , when they tend to cheat .
If they play a single round , whether they cheat seems to vary depending on the environment that the experiment is conducted in .
If they do n't know how many rounds they will play , they almost never cheat .
As part of my master 's thesis , I ran that last situation : in over 400 rounds of the game between 80 participants , I had exactly one cheater , which was perfectly in line with what the theory predicted .
Today , game theorists mostly work on how cycles of trust work .
For example , as I mentioned above , if one player cheats once , then his partner will cheat the next round .
Both players will move into the mindset of minimizing damage and cheat consistently .
To break out of this , you need to introduce communication and small stake games to rebuild the trust cycle .
The problem with game theory is not some inherent human tendency to honesty as you claim , but that it supposes that the players have perfect knowledge , which people do n't in the real world .
Ambiguity leads to less risk taking , which leads people to avoid cheating , even in single round situations .
Another shortcoming is that it is very difficult to build games that are complex enough to model the real world , but again , this has nothing to do with your hypothesis .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's this very fact that pisses game theorists off to no end -- agents in the system continue to act completely irrationally (ie, to trust) when the rules clearly indicate every advantage for the "cheater" and next to no consequences.I work using game theory to model international relations.
This is not at all a problem for game theory; in fact, game theory tends to presuppose that trust is the default choice and treachery is the abnormality.
Your hypothesis of some inherent human altruism as being more explicative of human behavior than game theory is bunk.
Your problem is that you only understand game theory in its most basic form: a single round game with four possible outcomes.
In this configuration, it is true that it is best to cheat, but this does not model anything in the real world and game theorists don't use it; this is just the introductory version that we give to students who are unlikely to ever actually use it.
What is more realistic is to suppose games of many rounds between the same players.
In this case, players will not cheat because they know that if they do that, their partner will also cheat in the next round and it costs more in the long run.
This conception works out pretty well in empirical testing: experiments show that students playing multi-round versions of the prisoner's dilemma for cash rewards will not cheat until the last round, when they tend to cheat.
If they play a single round, whether they cheat seems to vary depending on the environment that the experiment is conducted in.
If they don't know how many rounds they will play, they almost never cheat.
As part of my master's thesis, I ran that last situation: in over 400 rounds of the game between 80 participants, I had exactly one cheater, which was perfectly in line with what the theory predicted.
Today, game theorists mostly work on how cycles of trust work.
For example, as I mentioned above, if one player cheats once, then his partner will cheat the next round.
Both players will move into the mindset of minimizing damage and cheat consistently.
To break out of this, you need to introduce communication and small stake games to rebuild the trust cycle.
The problem with game theory is not some inherent human tendency to honesty as you claim, but that it supposes that the players have perfect knowledge, which people don't in the real world.
Ambiguity leads to less risk taking, which leads people to avoid cheating, even in single round situations.
Another shortcoming is that it is very difficult to build games that are complex enough to model the real world, but again, this has nothing to do with your hypothesis.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577779</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578355</id>
	<title>Re:A Bit of a Puzzle</title>
	<author>phantomfive</author>
	<datestamp>1246737900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hey man, don't leave us with your story ending there.......let us know, did you start a successful business?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey man , do n't leave us with your story ending there.......let us know , did you start a successful business ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hey man, don't leave us with your story ending there.......let us know, did you start a successful business?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578715</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting and Boring at the Same Time</title>
	<author>Dr. Impossible</author>
	<datestamp>1246700400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Every time I read a story about EVE, all I can think of is why the hell anyone would want to play it, let alone pay a monthly fee to do so. It does a better job of simulating the boredom and dreadfulness of real life than Sims does, and it also sounds like it was practically designed for griefing. What a shitload of fuck.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Every time I read a story about EVE , all I can think of is why the hell anyone would want to play it , let alone pay a monthly fee to do so .
It does a better job of simulating the boredom and dreadfulness of real life than Sims does , and it also sounds like it was practically designed for griefing .
What a shitload of fuck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Every time I read a story about EVE, all I can think of is why the hell anyone would want to play it, let alone pay a monthly fee to do so.
It does a better job of simulating the boredom and dreadfulness of real life than Sims does, and it also sounds like it was practically designed for griefing.
What a shitload of fuck.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577335</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577311</id>
	<title>Maybe these companies will wake up some day</title>
	<author>Cernst77</author>
	<datestamp>1246637640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>...and allow some kind of regulated Real Money Trade inside their games.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...and allow some kind of regulated Real Money Trade inside their games .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...and allow some kind of regulated Real Money Trade inside their games.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28582253</id>
	<title>Re:Slow news day?</title>
	<author>darpo</author>
	<datestamp>1246698720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>"Trust is inherently illogical and irrational and yet it works."</i>
<br> <br>
It's irrational individually. But it is rational at a societal or species level, as you point out. The kind of creatures that stuck around (us) are the *type* of creatures that trust. Those societies and creatures where mistrust and cheating were rampant are the ones that weren't selected for. You're seeing a biased sample, basically: the survivor species, who "learned" (via natural selection) that trust is the only way to go if we want to stick around.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Trust is inherently illogical and irrational and yet it works .
" It 's irrational individually .
But it is rational at a societal or species level , as you point out .
The kind of creatures that stuck around ( us ) are the * type * of creatures that trust .
Those societies and creatures where mistrust and cheating were rampant are the ones that were n't selected for .
You 're seeing a biased sample , basically : the survivor species , who " learned " ( via natural selection ) that trust is the only way to go if we want to stick around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Trust is inherently illogical and irrational and yet it works.
"
 
It's irrational individually.
But it is rational at a societal or species level, as you point out.
The kind of creatures that stuck around (us) are the *type* of creatures that trust.
Those societies and creatures where mistrust and cheating were rampant are the ones that weren't selected for.
You're seeing a biased sample, basically: the survivor species, who "learned" (via natural selection) that trust is the only way to go if we want to stick around.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577779</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578345</id>
	<title>Re:Slow news day?</title>
	<author>Seumas</author>
	<datestamp>1246737780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not really sure why this is newsworthy again. There is a massive bank scam or other fraud or corporate infiltration every couple months in EVE-Online going back a number of years, now. It's a part of the game and happens regularly. Space is a cold and hard place.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not really sure why this is newsworthy again .
There is a massive bank scam or other fraud or corporate infiltration every couple months in EVE-Online going back a number of years , now .
It 's a part of the game and happens regularly .
Space is a cold and hard place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not really sure why this is newsworthy again.
There is a massive bank scam or other fraud or corporate infiltration every couple months in EVE-Online going back a number of years, now.
It's a part of the game and happens regularly.
Space is a cold and hard place.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577309</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577605</id>
	<title>A Bit of a Puzzle</title>
	<author>hardburn</author>
	<datestamp>1246641180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'd like to take a minute to address concerns over EBANK's solvency, that is, it's ability to pay out withdraws. As I mentioned before, EBANK moved a large portion of it's assets into cash and we've been merrily burning through it today as people have drawn their money out in concern. We also haven't had deposits coming in - so the money is only flowing in one direction....out.</p><p>That's ok.</p><p>We still have enough cash to handle withdraws and as of the time I write this; withdraws have been actioned. I would also like to point out a few other things; we have had many persons asking when they can deposit money again, as a show of support and to provide EBANK with an infusion of cash. On top of this, we have had private loans offered to us totaling 100 billion and if we really have to....we still have the ability to issue a Bond or if really required, we may finally launch an IPO.</p><p>Why am I pointing this out? I want to provide assurances to our customers that your money is safe with EBANK. We are solvent and continue to build liquidity even in this challenging environment. Even if we have a solvency issue, we have many options at hand to address that should it arise.</p><p>Again, thank you to those who have expressed support.</p></div><p>I don't play Eve anymore (purely out of regard for personal time management), but I've read many statements like the above of business dealings in the game (not necessarily about scams, just straight business). What I'm always struck by is that if you're capable of finagling all these things in the game, what's stopping you from doing it in real life?</p><p>When this thought first struck me, I was making plans to run an in game POS as a business, and had produced a full business plan and profit analysis spreadsheet. Which is exactly what you'd expect to need at the start of a real business.</p><p>Supply and demand, buy low/sell high, and negotiations are all key skills in running a business in the game, but no more or less than they are in real life. Real life has a lot more government regulation (CCP takes a largely hands-off policy as long as you're not trading ISK for real money), but as long as you can navigate that, you'll have the skills you need for a real business, too.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd like to take a minute to address concerns over EBANK 's solvency , that is , it 's ability to pay out withdraws .
As I mentioned before , EBANK moved a large portion of it 's assets into cash and we 've been merrily burning through it today as people have drawn their money out in concern .
We also have n't had deposits coming in - so the money is only flowing in one direction....out.That 's ok.We still have enough cash to handle withdraws and as of the time I write this ; withdraws have been actioned .
I would also like to point out a few other things ; we have had many persons asking when they can deposit money again , as a show of support and to provide EBANK with an infusion of cash .
On top of this , we have had private loans offered to us totaling 100 billion and if we really have to....we still have the ability to issue a Bond or if really required , we may finally launch an IPO.Why am I pointing this out ?
I want to provide assurances to our customers that your money is safe with EBANK .
We are solvent and continue to build liquidity even in this challenging environment .
Even if we have a solvency issue , we have many options at hand to address that should it arise.Again , thank you to those who have expressed support.I do n't play Eve anymore ( purely out of regard for personal time management ) , but I 've read many statements like the above of business dealings in the game ( not necessarily about scams , just straight business ) .
What I 'm always struck by is that if you 're capable of finagling all these things in the game , what 's stopping you from doing it in real life ? When this thought first struck me , I was making plans to run an in game POS as a business , and had produced a full business plan and profit analysis spreadsheet .
Which is exactly what you 'd expect to need at the start of a real business.Supply and demand , buy low/sell high , and negotiations are all key skills in running a business in the game , but no more or less than they are in real life .
Real life has a lot more government regulation ( CCP takes a largely hands-off policy as long as you 're not trading ISK for real money ) , but as long as you can navigate that , you 'll have the skills you need for a real business , too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd like to take a minute to address concerns over EBANK's solvency, that is, it's ability to pay out withdraws.
As I mentioned before, EBANK moved a large portion of it's assets into cash and we've been merrily burning through it today as people have drawn their money out in concern.
We also haven't had deposits coming in - so the money is only flowing in one direction....out.That's ok.We still have enough cash to handle withdraws and as of the time I write this; withdraws have been actioned.
I would also like to point out a few other things; we have had many persons asking when they can deposit money again, as a show of support and to provide EBANK with an infusion of cash.
On top of this, we have had private loans offered to us totaling 100 billion and if we really have to....we still have the ability to issue a Bond or if really required, we may finally launch an IPO.Why am I pointing this out?
I want to provide assurances to our customers that your money is safe with EBANK.
We are solvent and continue to build liquidity even in this challenging environment.
Even if we have a solvency issue, we have many options at hand to address that should it arise.Again, thank you to those who have expressed support.I don't play Eve anymore (purely out of regard for personal time management), but I've read many statements like the above of business dealings in the game (not necessarily about scams, just straight business).
What I'm always struck by is that if you're capable of finagling all these things in the game, what's stopping you from doing it in real life?When this thought first struck me, I was making plans to run an in game POS as a business, and had produced a full business plan and profit analysis spreadsheet.
Which is exactly what you'd expect to need at the start of a real business.Supply and demand, buy low/sell high, and negotiations are all key skills in running a business in the game, but no more or less than they are in real life.
Real life has a lot more government regulation (CCP takes a largely hands-off policy as long as you're not trading ISK for real money), but as long as you can navigate that, you'll have the skills you need for a real business, too.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577587</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe these companies will wake up some day</title>
	<author>longacre</author>
	<datestamp>1246640880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are already games that let you do that. They're called NYSE, NASDAQ and FOREX.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are already games that let you do that .
They 're called NYSE , NASDAQ and FOREX .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are already games that let you do that.
They're called NYSE, NASDAQ and FOREX.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577311</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28579385</id>
	<title>Banning is a reward</title>
	<author>Organic Brain Damage</author>
	<datestamp>1246714260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Banning Ricdic for making $5,000 in real money from the game will probably result in him making more real money, from real work, in the real world.  He might even meet a real girl and have a real relationship and real children.  Hardly seems like much of a punishment, if you ask me.  If the developers of EVE wanted to punish Ricdic, they'd have given him two more accounts....for free.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Banning Ricdic for making $ 5,000 in real money from the game will probably result in him making more real money , from real work , in the real world .
He might even meet a real girl and have a real relationship and real children .
Hardly seems like much of a punishment , if you ask me .
If the developers of EVE wanted to punish Ricdic , they 'd have given him two more accounts....for free .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Banning Ricdic for making $5,000 in real money from the game will probably result in him making more real money, from real work, in the real world.
He might even meet a real girl and have a real relationship and real children.
Hardly seems like much of a punishment, if you ask me.
If the developers of EVE wanted to punish Ricdic, they'd have given him two more accounts....for free.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578417</id>
	<title>Re:Slow news day?</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1246738920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is, there IS actually no real consequence. What is the consequence? The account was banned. That is a consequence<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... how? Sure, the average gamer would probably be a little shocked, a few years of his life down the drain, but someone whose goal is to con? He doesn't play anyway.</p><p>It's also not a safeguard against never doing it again. He could just hire someone to make an account for him.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is , there IS actually no real consequence .
What is the consequence ?
The account was banned .
That is a consequence ... how ? Sure , the average gamer would probably be a little shocked , a few years of his life down the drain , but someone whose goal is to con ?
He does n't play anyway.It 's also not a safeguard against never doing it again .
He could just hire someone to make an account for him .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is, there IS actually no real consequence.
What is the consequence?
The account was banned.
That is a consequence ... how? Sure, the average gamer would probably be a little shocked, a few years of his life down the drain, but someone whose goal is to con?
He doesn't play anyway.It's also not a safeguard against never doing it again.
He could just hire someone to make an account for him.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577327</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28581847</id>
	<title>Re:Slow news day?</title>
	<author>lawpoop</author>
	<datestamp>1246737180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think people mostly go by what they perceive as the norm. In other words, "Locks keep an honest man honest". If you perceive yourself to be in a loosey-goosey, anything goes situation, you'll do what you see everybody else around you doing.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think people mostly go by what they perceive as the norm .
In other words , " Locks keep an honest man honest " .
If you perceive yourself to be in a loosey-goosey , anything goes situation , you 'll do what you see everybody else around you doing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think people mostly go by what they perceive as the norm.
In other words, "Locks keep an honest man honest".
If you perceive yourself to be in a loosey-goosey, anything goes situation, you'll do what you see everybody else around you doing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578773</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28580653</id>
	<title>Re:Slow news day?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246727280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In World of Warcraft, these people are called Chinese Gold Farmers.</p><p>5000$? Pocket change.</p><p>Hilarious.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In World of Warcraft , these people are called Chinese Gold Farmers.5000 $ ?
Pocket change.Hilarious .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In World of Warcraft, these people are called Chinese Gold Farmers.5000$?
Pocket change.Hilarious.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577309</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578319</id>
	<title>Seems like someone finally...</title>
	<author>SpeZek</author>
	<datestamp>1246651140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>figured out how to win the ever elusive mmo endgame</htmltext>
<tokenext>figured out how to win the ever elusive mmo endgame</tokentext>
<sentencetext>figured out how to win the ever elusive mmo endgame</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577833</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting and Boring at the Same Time</title>
	<author>bertoelcon</author>
	<datestamp>1246643580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Isn't the idea of a game to escape reality, not have it mimic so flawlessly the errors that exist in reality so heavily?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is n't the idea of a game to escape reality , not have it mimic so flawlessly the errors that exist in reality so heavily ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Isn't the idea of a game to escape reality, not have it mimic so flawlessly the errors that exist in reality so heavily?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577335</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577655</id>
	<title>They need an EDIC.</title>
	<author>Jane Q. Public</author>
	<datestamp>1246641660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>EVE Deposit Insurance Corporation. Banks pay a small premium to EDIC, in turn it insures everybody's deposits.
<br> <br>
Of course, to keep it from going broke immediately, there would have to be some kind of in-game sanctions against cheaters and embezzlers! Does EVE have a "jail"???</htmltext>
<tokenext>EVE Deposit Insurance Corporation .
Banks pay a small premium to EDIC , in turn it insures everybody 's deposits .
Of course , to keep it from going broke immediately , there would have to be some kind of in-game sanctions against cheaters and embezzlers !
Does EVE have a " jail " ? ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>EVE Deposit Insurance Corporation.
Banks pay a small premium to EDIC, in turn it insures everybody's deposits.
Of course, to keep it from going broke immediately, there would have to be some kind of in-game sanctions against cheaters and embezzlers!
Does EVE have a "jail"??
?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578449</id>
	<title>Re:A Bit of a Puzzle</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246739460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'll also add, this is why I don't play video games much any more........real life is so much of an adventure that games seem less exciting in comparison.  They are fun, but compared to what I can REALLY do.....</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll also add , this is why I do n't play video games much any more........real life is so much of an adventure that games seem less exciting in comparison .
They are fun , but compared to what I can REALLY do.... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll also add, this is why I don't play video games much any more........real life is so much of an adventure that games seem less exciting in comparison.
They are fun, but compared to what I can REALLY do.....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577329</id>
	<title>Re:Slow news day?</title>
	<author>Grail</author>
	<datestamp>1246637820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If it gets more people interested in the game who cares that Slashdot is a month behind the curve?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If it gets more people interested in the game who cares that Slashdot is a month behind the curve ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If it gets more people interested in the game who cares that Slashdot is a month behind the curve?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577309</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577379</id>
	<title>Re:Slow news day?</title>
	<author>plasmacutter</author>
	<datestamp>1246638240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>madoff has been sentenced and the trial is over..</p><p>people have gotten used to the spectacle of embezzlement and ponzi schemes, so we have to find another one.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>madoff has been sentenced and the trial is over..people have gotten used to the spectacle of embezzlement and ponzi schemes , so we have to find another one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>madoff has been sentenced and the trial is over..people have gotten used to the spectacle of embezzlement and ponzi schemes, so we have to find another one.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577309</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28580399</id>
	<title>Not sure who the bigger fool is ...</title>
	<author>stwrtpj</author>
	<datestamp>1246725180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Not sure who the bigger fool is, the guy that embezzled all the in-game money or the schmuck that paid $5000 of real money for it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not sure who the bigger fool is , the guy that embezzled all the in-game money or the schmuck that paid $ 5000 of real money for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not sure who the bigger fool is, the guy that embezzled all the in-game money or the schmuck that paid $5000 of real money for it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578071</id>
	<title>Re:Already happened in Second Life</title>
	<author>GryMor</author>
	<datestamp>1246647000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Loans are EBANK's bread and butter. The loans are mostly collateralized (there are in game mechanisms for locking resources so they can still be used by a third party but can't be moved) or guaranteed by a trusted party (effectively using their reputation as collateral).</p><p>Added to the compartmentalized capital management they have, and no one person can kill the bank, take 200bn? Sure, but that isn't death, just a really big chunk of profit...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Loans are EBANK 's bread and butter .
The loans are mostly collateralized ( there are in game mechanisms for locking resources so they can still be used by a third party but ca n't be moved ) or guaranteed by a trusted party ( effectively using their reputation as collateral ) .Added to the compartmentalized capital management they have , and no one person can kill the bank , take 200bn ?
Sure , but that is n't death , just a really big chunk of profit.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Loans are EBANK's bread and butter.
The loans are mostly collateralized (there are in game mechanisms for locking resources so they can still be used by a third party but can't be moved) or guaranteed by a trusted party (effectively using their reputation as collateral).Added to the compartmentalized capital management they have, and no one person can kill the bank, take 200bn?
Sure, but that isn't death, just a really big chunk of profit...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577699</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577779</id>
	<title>Re:Slow news day?</title>
	<author>girlintraining</author>
	<datestamp>1246642920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I don't know why this is surprising except for one fact: That it didn't happen much, much sooner.</p></div><p>Because people are inherently honest. Dishonesty is an abnormality. Even in this case, it took $5,000 in immediate <i>real life</i> needs for this person to cause harm in a <i>video game</i> to a fictional economy, and the only punishment is that a few ones and zeroes got flipped around so they didn't like a few other ones and zeroes anymore. It's this very fact that pisses game theorists off to no end -- agents in the system continue to act completely irrationally (ie, to trust) when the rules clearly indicate every advantage for the "cheater" and next to no consequences.</p><p>Trust is inherently illogical and irrational <i>and yet it works</i>. Society is built on networks of trust -- most of our institutions and infrastructure that allow life to go on the way it does right now depends on the vast majority of people playing by the rules. Rules which, for the most part, are arbitrary. There are very few rules that are "naturally derived" -- For example, not murdering people is a naturally derived rule because we can't exactly make going extinct legal. O.o Traffic laws are, for the most part, arbitrary -- red means stop, green means go, drive on the left (or right), etc. But we'd never be able to use the shared public resource (the highway) without them.</p><p>Human beings are social creatures. In order to survive, we have to trust one another. Every social organizational structure is derived from this basic concept -- it simply varies in how we trust, to what degree, and to whom.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know why this is surprising except for one fact : That it did n't happen much , much sooner.Because people are inherently honest .
Dishonesty is an abnormality .
Even in this case , it took $ 5,000 in immediate real life needs for this person to cause harm in a video game to a fictional economy , and the only punishment is that a few ones and zeroes got flipped around so they did n't like a few other ones and zeroes anymore .
It 's this very fact that pisses game theorists off to no end -- agents in the system continue to act completely irrationally ( ie , to trust ) when the rules clearly indicate every advantage for the " cheater " and next to no consequences.Trust is inherently illogical and irrational and yet it works .
Society is built on networks of trust -- most of our institutions and infrastructure that allow life to go on the way it does right now depends on the vast majority of people playing by the rules .
Rules which , for the most part , are arbitrary .
There are very few rules that are " naturally derived " -- For example , not murdering people is a naturally derived rule because we ca n't exactly make going extinct legal .
O.o Traffic laws are , for the most part , arbitrary -- red means stop , green means go , drive on the left ( or right ) , etc .
But we 'd never be able to use the shared public resource ( the highway ) without them.Human beings are social creatures .
In order to survive , we have to trust one another .
Every social organizational structure is derived from this basic concept -- it simply varies in how we trust , to what degree , and to whom .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know why this is surprising except for one fact: That it didn't happen much, much sooner.Because people are inherently honest.
Dishonesty is an abnormality.
Even in this case, it took $5,000 in immediate real life needs for this person to cause harm in a video game to a fictional economy, and the only punishment is that a few ones and zeroes got flipped around so they didn't like a few other ones and zeroes anymore.
It's this very fact that pisses game theorists off to no end -- agents in the system continue to act completely irrationally (ie, to trust) when the rules clearly indicate every advantage for the "cheater" and next to no consequences.Trust is inherently illogical and irrational and yet it works.
Society is built on networks of trust -- most of our institutions and infrastructure that allow life to go on the way it does right now depends on the vast majority of people playing by the rules.
Rules which, for the most part, are arbitrary.
There are very few rules that are "naturally derived" -- For example, not murdering people is a naturally derived rule because we can't exactly make going extinct legal.
O.o Traffic laws are, for the most part, arbitrary -- red means stop, green means go, drive on the left (or right), etc.
But we'd never be able to use the shared public resource (the highway) without them.Human beings are social creatures.
In order to survive, we have to trust one another.
Every social organizational structure is derived from this basic concept -- it simply varies in how we trust, to what degree, and to whom.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577327</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578495</id>
	<title>Well duh, you got it</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246740060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most MMO's are boring, after all, you can play any game for so long. SWG is not fondly remembered for its battles or storyline, but for the sandbox that allowed some of us to create an alternate world were we could play... well star wars.</p><p>EVE does it even better. People don't play it to fly a starship, they play it for the economy model. It is amazing and allows you to pull of stuff that would take a lifetime in the realworld and sometimes gets you killed.</p><p>You can look at the D&amp;D rulebook and see nothing but stats and rules for manipulating numbers, an accountants manual perhaps, OR you can see it as the spreadsheet gateway to a fantasy world of your own making. Of course, you could do it without the D&amp;D rulebook, but for most of us, it helps to have a tool (the game) to build the fantasy around.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most MMO 's are boring , after all , you can play any game for so long .
SWG is not fondly remembered for its battles or storyline , but for the sandbox that allowed some of us to create an alternate world were we could play... well star wars.EVE does it even better .
People do n't play it to fly a starship , they play it for the economy model .
It is amazing and allows you to pull of stuff that would take a lifetime in the realworld and sometimes gets you killed.You can look at the D&amp;D rulebook and see nothing but stats and rules for manipulating numbers , an accountants manual perhaps , OR you can see it as the spreadsheet gateway to a fantasy world of your own making .
Of course , you could do it without the D&amp;D rulebook , but for most of us , it helps to have a tool ( the game ) to build the fantasy around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most MMO's are boring, after all, you can play any game for so long.
SWG is not fondly remembered for its battles or storyline, but for the sandbox that allowed some of us to create an alternate world were we could play... well star wars.EVE does it even better.
People don't play it to fly a starship, they play it for the economy model.
It is amazing and allows you to pull of stuff that would take a lifetime in the realworld and sometimes gets you killed.You can look at the D&amp;D rulebook and see nothing but stats and rules for manipulating numbers, an accountants manual perhaps, OR you can see it as the spreadsheet gateway to a fantasy world of your own making.
Of course, you could do it without the D&amp;D rulebook, but for most of us, it helps to have a tool (the game) to build the fantasy around.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577335</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577327</id>
	<title>Re:Slow news day?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246637820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Either way, I don't know why this is surprising except for one fact:  That it didn't happen much, much sooner.  That's what happens when there's no real world consequences for your behavior (or you think you can avoid them).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Either way , I do n't know why this is surprising except for one fact : That it did n't happen much , much sooner .
That 's what happens when there 's no real world consequences for your behavior ( or you think you can avoid them ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Either way, I don't know why this is surprising except for one fact:  That it didn't happen much, much sooner.
That's what happens when there's no real world consequences for your behavior (or you think you can avoid them).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577309</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577699</id>
	<title>Already happened in Second Life</title>
	<author>Animats</author>
	<datestamp>1246641960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Remember the big flap with Second Life banks when <a href="http://www.wired.com/gaming/virtualworlds/news/2007/08/virtual\_bank" title="wired.com">Ginko Financial failed?</a> [wired.com] They had a real bank run in Second Life, with avatars crowding branches demanding their money.
</p><p>
Linden Labs then banned all "banks" in Second Life unless operated by a regulated real-world financial institution.  A few real banks established a presence in Second Life, but most (maybe all) have given it up by now.
</p><p>
The problem with banks in a virtual world is that what banks really do is sell loans.  It's hard to collect from an avatar.  So a loan business is tough to make work.  A deposit and transfer business is quite workable, but it's expensive to run well.  Among other things, it has all the fraud-prevention problems and costs of, say, PayPal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Remember the big flap with Second Life banks when Ginko Financial failed ?
[ wired.com ] They had a real bank run in Second Life , with avatars crowding branches demanding their money .
Linden Labs then banned all " banks " in Second Life unless operated by a regulated real-world financial institution .
A few real banks established a presence in Second Life , but most ( maybe all ) have given it up by now .
The problem with banks in a virtual world is that what banks really do is sell loans .
It 's hard to collect from an avatar .
So a loan business is tough to make work .
A deposit and transfer business is quite workable , but it 's expensive to run well .
Among other things , it has all the fraud-prevention problems and costs of , say , PayPal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Remember the big flap with Second Life banks when Ginko Financial failed?
[wired.com] They had a real bank run in Second Life, with avatars crowding branches demanding their money.
Linden Labs then banned all "banks" in Second Life unless operated by a regulated real-world financial institution.
A few real banks established a presence in Second Life, but most (maybe all) have given it up by now.
The problem with banks in a virtual world is that what banks really do is sell loans.
It's hard to collect from an avatar.
So a loan business is tough to make work.
A deposit and transfer business is quite workable, but it's expensive to run well.
Among other things, it has all the fraud-prevention problems and costs of, say, PayPal.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577353</id>
	<title>Summer's EVE ?  Only for DOUCHEBAGS!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246637940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yo! Douchebag!  Yeah you!  Douchebag!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yo !
Douchebag ! Yeah you !
Douchebag !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yo!
Douchebag!  Yeah you!
Douchebag!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577493</id>
	<title>Happy Birthday USA - you are one old fart</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246639500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Once you hit 200 it's downhill from there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Once you hit 200 it 's downhill from there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Once you hit 200 it's downhill from there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578971</id>
	<title>Re:Slow news day?</title>
	<author>Exception Duck</author>
	<datestamp>1246705860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Should it be illegal to scam people in the game ?  As I understand it - this is part of the game, scamming people....<br>Then he broke the EULA - and they kicked him out of the game... Any real world consequences are not justifiable in my opinion.</p><p>What I don't really get is - why the buyer isn't kicked out as well... surely 200 billion ISK in EVE can't be that hard to trace... or do they have money laundering services there ? How on earth would they work in a log-all virtual world.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Should it be illegal to scam people in the game ?
As I understand it - this is part of the game , scamming people....Then he broke the EULA - and they kicked him out of the game... Any real world consequences are not justifiable in my opinion.What I do n't really get is - why the buyer is n't kicked out as well... surely 200 billion ISK in EVE ca n't be that hard to trace... or do they have money laundering services there ?
How on earth would they work in a log-all virtual world .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Should it be illegal to scam people in the game ?
As I understand it - this is part of the game, scamming people....Then he broke the EULA - and they kicked him out of the game... Any real world consequences are not justifiable in my opinion.What I don't really get is - why the buyer isn't kicked out as well... surely 200 billion ISK in EVE can't be that hard to trace... or do they have money laundering services there ?
How on earth would they work in a log-all virtual world.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577327</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577349</id>
	<title>Good advert for Eve...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246637940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You might think I'm being sarcastic but really. Each time I read one of these stories about an Eve problem I only want to play the game more. I've played other MMOs and having full banking institutions, investments, and companies exist is within its self very rare.</p><p>I mean all games have some kind of monetary system and by extension a way to trade money for goods. But very few are able to recreate the real world so closely.</p><p>Take for example World of Warcraft, you have gold, and you can trade. But you'd never have real businesses exist because the game just doesn't work that way, let alone banks.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You might think I 'm being sarcastic but really .
Each time I read one of these stories about an Eve problem I only want to play the game more .
I 've played other MMOs and having full banking institutions , investments , and companies exist is within its self very rare.I mean all games have some kind of monetary system and by extension a way to trade money for goods .
But very few are able to recreate the real world so closely.Take for example World of Warcraft , you have gold , and you can trade .
But you 'd never have real businesses exist because the game just does n't work that way , let alone banks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You might think I'm being sarcastic but really.
Each time I read one of these stories about an Eve problem I only want to play the game more.
I've played other MMOs and having full banking institutions, investments, and companies exist is within its self very rare.I mean all games have some kind of monetary system and by extension a way to trade money for goods.
But very few are able to recreate the real world so closely.Take for example World of Warcraft, you have gold, and you can trade.
But you'd never have real businesses exist because the game just doesn't work that way, let alone banks.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577839</id>
	<title>Trying to scare people into renewing their account</title>
	<author>An anonymous Frank</author>
	<datestamp>1246643700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is rather very old news, and the "run" is also over already; my ISKs are sitting safely at the bank, and earning too!  Heck, people were even making deposits to help out while others were reacting.</p><p>What I thought was interesting, was the talk of how perhaps the bank needs to increase returns to reflect the greater resulting/perceived risk.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is rather very old news , and the " run " is also over already ; my ISKs are sitting safely at the bank , and earning too !
Heck , people were even making deposits to help out while others were reacting.What I thought was interesting , was the talk of how perhaps the bank needs to increase returns to reflect the greater resulting/perceived risk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is rather very old news, and the "run" is also over already; my ISKs are sitting safely at the bank, and earning too!
Heck, people were even making deposits to help out while others were reacting.What I thought was interesting, was the talk of how perhaps the bank needs to increase returns to reflect the greater resulting/perceived risk.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577911</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting and Boring at the Same Time</title>
	<author>jollyreaper</author>
	<datestamp>1246644960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>EVE continues to be an interesting study in politics and intrigue but I will forever fail to understand its appeal as an MMO. I've tried playing it - it totally does not appeal to me in any way, what-so-ever. It was about as dreadfully boring as a game could possibly be without being nothing at all. In my opinion. But, its political backstabbings and manipulations of its systems sure as hell generate some interesting stories... Intensely interesting and dreadfully boring at the same time.</p></div><p>Perversely enough, those are exactly the play mechanics they wanted to emulate.</p><p>MMORPG's are weird beasts. On one hand, it doesn't feel like an RPG because nobody is in character, nobody is playing according to the setting's fluff. It all feels like a bunch of game geeks dorking around on a video game. But on the other hand, these seemingly average, real-life people can be anything but. I'm not just talking about the mild-mannered high school mathlete who becomes a griefing dickhead when he gets online, I'm talking about the people who work out the elaborate con jobs. There was one massive screw-job that took over a year to plan and execute. You don't really know anyone.</p><p>I played EVE briefly and am firmly in the carebear camp. If a game is any bit more complicated and involved than an FPS deathmatch, I'd prefer to be playing as a team rather than in competition.</p><p>The time it takes to put into a game like this, to get anywhere, to pull off these virtual coups, it's mental illness in a can. We're talking obsessive behavior, unhealthy commitments of time not seen outside of stalker/murderer ex's and the terminally ambitious.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>EVE continues to be an interesting study in politics and intrigue but I will forever fail to understand its appeal as an MMO .
I 've tried playing it - it totally does not appeal to me in any way , what-so-ever .
It was about as dreadfully boring as a game could possibly be without being nothing at all .
In my opinion .
But , its political backstabbings and manipulations of its systems sure as hell generate some interesting stories... Intensely interesting and dreadfully boring at the same time.Perversely enough , those are exactly the play mechanics they wanted to emulate.MMORPG 's are weird beasts .
On one hand , it does n't feel like an RPG because nobody is in character , nobody is playing according to the setting 's fluff .
It all feels like a bunch of game geeks dorking around on a video game .
But on the other hand , these seemingly average , real-life people can be anything but .
I 'm not just talking about the mild-mannered high school mathlete who becomes a griefing dickhead when he gets online , I 'm talking about the people who work out the elaborate con jobs .
There was one massive screw-job that took over a year to plan and execute .
You do n't really know anyone.I played EVE briefly and am firmly in the carebear camp .
If a game is any bit more complicated and involved than an FPS deathmatch , I 'd prefer to be playing as a team rather than in competition.The time it takes to put into a game like this , to get anywhere , to pull off these virtual coups , it 's mental illness in a can .
We 're talking obsessive behavior , unhealthy commitments of time not seen outside of stalker/murderer ex 's and the terminally ambitious .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>EVE continues to be an interesting study in politics and intrigue but I will forever fail to understand its appeal as an MMO.
I've tried playing it - it totally does not appeal to me in any way, what-so-ever.
It was about as dreadfully boring as a game could possibly be without being nothing at all.
In my opinion.
But, its political backstabbings and manipulations of its systems sure as hell generate some interesting stories... Intensely interesting and dreadfully boring at the same time.Perversely enough, those are exactly the play mechanics they wanted to emulate.MMORPG's are weird beasts.
On one hand, it doesn't feel like an RPG because nobody is in character, nobody is playing according to the setting's fluff.
It all feels like a bunch of game geeks dorking around on a video game.
But on the other hand, these seemingly average, real-life people can be anything but.
I'm not just talking about the mild-mannered high school mathlete who becomes a griefing dickhead when he gets online, I'm talking about the people who work out the elaborate con jobs.
There was one massive screw-job that took over a year to plan and execute.
You don't really know anyone.I played EVE briefly and am firmly in the carebear camp.
If a game is any bit more complicated and involved than an FPS deathmatch, I'd prefer to be playing as a team rather than in competition.The time it takes to put into a game like this, to get anywhere, to pull off these virtual coups, it's mental illness in a can.
We're talking obsessive behavior, unhealthy commitments of time not seen outside of stalker/murderer ex's and the terminally ambitious.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577335</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578687</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe these companies will wake up some day</title>
	<author>julesh</author>
	<datestamp>1246699980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>CCP already has something like that in place in EVE Online.</i></p><p><i>You can buy a GTC (Game Time Code) and directly sell it to other players for ISK (ingame money) </i></p><p>Yes, but there's no official mechanism for converting your ISK back to real money.  For that, you'd basically have to sell it externally, presumably to an ISK trader.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>CCP already has something like that in place in EVE Online.You can buy a GTC ( Game Time Code ) and directly sell it to other players for ISK ( ingame money ) Yes , but there 's no official mechanism for converting your ISK back to real money .
For that , you 'd basically have to sell it externally , presumably to an ISK trader .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>CCP already has something like that in place in EVE Online.You can buy a GTC (Game Time Code) and directly sell it to other players for ISK (ingame money) Yes, but there's no official mechanism for converting your ISK back to real money.
For that, you'd basically have to sell it externally, presumably to an ISK trader.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577359</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28583507</id>
	<title>Re:A Bit of a Puzzle</title>
	<author>petermgreen</author>
	<datestamp>1246713720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are a couple of things that make starting a buisness in real life harder IMO.</p><p>1: giving up the day job to start a buisness is a pretty risky move, especialbly when that day job is the only thing paying the mortgage that keeps a roof over your families head. Starting up a buisness without giving up your day job is pretty hard because you will most likely be in your day job during "buisness hours"<br>2: most buisness require capital to start. You can possiblly borrow some in the buisnesses name but much of it is going to have to either come from your savings or be borrowed in your name.</p><p>I get the impression that there are many people who like the idea of running a buisness but (rightly or wrongly) consider that they don't have the resources or that it is too risky an option. So they keep working at a regular job and play a buisness simulator in thier spare time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are a couple of things that make starting a buisness in real life harder IMO.1 : giving up the day job to start a buisness is a pretty risky move , especialbly when that day job is the only thing paying the mortgage that keeps a roof over your families head .
Starting up a buisness without giving up your day job is pretty hard because you will most likely be in your day job during " buisness hours " 2 : most buisness require capital to start .
You can possiblly borrow some in the buisnesses name but much of it is going to have to either come from your savings or be borrowed in your name.I get the impression that there are many people who like the idea of running a buisness but ( rightly or wrongly ) consider that they do n't have the resources or that it is too risky an option .
So they keep working at a regular job and play a buisness simulator in thier spare time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are a couple of things that make starting a buisness in real life harder IMO.1: giving up the day job to start a buisness is a pretty risky move, especialbly when that day job is the only thing paying the mortgage that keeps a roof over your families head.
Starting up a buisness without giving up your day job is pretty hard because you will most likely be in your day job during "buisness hours"2: most buisness require capital to start.
You can possiblly borrow some in the buisnesses name but much of it is going to have to either come from your savings or be borrowed in your name.I get the impression that there are many people who like the idea of running a buisness but (rightly or wrongly) consider that they don't have the resources or that it is too risky an option.
So they keep working at a regular job and play a buisness simulator in thier spare time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28581075</id>
	<title>Re:Not sure who the bigger fool is ...</title>
	<author>Dun Malg</author>
	<datestamp>1246730640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Not sure who the bigger fool is, the guy that embezzled all the in-game money or the schmuck that paid $5000 of real money for it.</p></div><p>Try as I might, I can't find a single thing the embezzler did that makes him a fool. He ditched a real-life time and money sink of a habit (EVE Online) and managed to trade it for real-life money and pay some bills. Might qualify slightly as "jerk", but not even a little as "fool".</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not sure who the bigger fool is , the guy that embezzled all the in-game money or the schmuck that paid $ 5000 of real money for it.Try as I might , I ca n't find a single thing the embezzler did that makes him a fool .
He ditched a real-life time and money sink of a habit ( EVE Online ) and managed to trade it for real-life money and pay some bills .
Might qualify slightly as " jerk " , but not even a little as " fool " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not sure who the bigger fool is, the guy that embezzled all the in-game money or the schmuck that paid $5000 of real money for it.Try as I might, I can't find a single thing the embezzler did that makes him a fool.
He ditched a real-life time and money sink of a habit (EVE Online) and managed to trade it for real-life money and pay some bills.
Might qualify slightly as "jerk", but not even a little as "fool".
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28580399</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28579507</id>
	<title>Trust is still Important</title>
	<author>PleaseFearMe</author>
	<datestamp>1246715820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>In real life, a reputation follows a person.  No one will invest in Madoff anymore.  In the game, a reputation follows the username.  If the game does not allow username changes, then being dishonest would adversely affect the cheater's game play, which means cheating/punishment is \_a part of\_ the game.  People probably were no longer willing to play with Ridic anymore.  In games like Counter-Strike, if a person does not cover you in one round, then you remember the name, and no longer trust him to cover you in the next round.  It may not seem to be as big of a deal in Counter-Strike because almost everything resets in the next round, but nothing resets in Eve and people lost hard-earned money.  So in summary, in Ridic's case, the cheater lost even if he did not get banned, because no one would be willing to play with him again.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In real life , a reputation follows a person .
No one will invest in Madoff anymore .
In the game , a reputation follows the username .
If the game does not allow username changes , then being dishonest would adversely affect the cheater 's game play , which means cheating/punishment is \ _a part of \ _ the game .
People probably were no longer willing to play with Ridic anymore .
In games like Counter-Strike , if a person does not cover you in one round , then you remember the name , and no longer trust him to cover you in the next round .
It may not seem to be as big of a deal in Counter-Strike because almost everything resets in the next round , but nothing resets in Eve and people lost hard-earned money .
So in summary , in Ridic 's case , the cheater lost even if he did not get banned , because no one would be willing to play with him again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In real life, a reputation follows a person.
No one will invest in Madoff anymore.
In the game, a reputation follows the username.
If the game does not allow username changes, then being dishonest would adversely affect the cheater's game play, which means cheating/punishment is \_a part of\_ the game.
People probably were no longer willing to play with Ridic anymore.
In games like Counter-Strike, if a person does not cover you in one round, then you remember the name, and no longer trust him to cover you in the next round.
It may not seem to be as big of a deal in Counter-Strike because almost everything resets in the next round, but nothing resets in Eve and people lost hard-earned money.
So in summary, in Ridic's case, the cheater lost even if he did not get banned, because no one would be willing to play with him again.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577779</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578443</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting and Boring at the Same Time</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1246739340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Metagaming" is thicker in EvE than in any other game out there, mostly because your chance to impact the playing experience of other players has never been higher. EvE is a social-economic experiment of sorts, a lot of the experience you have depends on the interaction with other players.</p><p>Of course, if you're not into that, there are few MMOs out there that could be any more boring.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Metagaming " is thicker in EvE than in any other game out there , mostly because your chance to impact the playing experience of other players has never been higher .
EvE is a social-economic experiment of sorts , a lot of the experience you have depends on the interaction with other players.Of course , if you 're not into that , there are few MMOs out there that could be any more boring .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Metagaming" is thicker in EvE than in any other game out there, mostly because your chance to impact the playing experience of other players has never been higher.
EvE is a social-economic experiment of sorts, a lot of the experience you have depends on the interaction with other players.Of course, if you're not into that, there are few MMOs out there that could be any more boring.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577335</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28580371</id>
	<title>Re:Slow news day?</title>
	<author>O('\_')O\_Bush</author>
	<datestamp>1246724820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That theory doesn't hold water in other games that have smaller subscription fees (such as RS).<br><br>RS (as an example to the extreme), has an economy that is almost built off currency and prices generated or affected by Pump-And-Dump clans, mage-boxing, account stealing, trust trading, player luring, and public price manipulation.<br><br>The biggest reason for this, in my opinion, is that while EVE has a subscription fee of 15$/month, RS can be played for free or have additions for 5$/month. With pre-trade restriction prices of 10-12$/mill, losing an account simply doesn't matter in comparison to the gain of being dishonest and stealing from other players.<br><br>As with many things, the more a person has invested in something, the more they'll try to keep it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That theory does n't hold water in other games that have smaller subscription fees ( such as RS ) .RS ( as an example to the extreme ) , has an economy that is almost built off currency and prices generated or affected by Pump-And-Dump clans , mage-boxing , account stealing , trust trading , player luring , and public price manipulation.The biggest reason for this , in my opinion , is that while EVE has a subscription fee of 15 $ /month , RS can be played for free or have additions for 5 $ /month .
With pre-trade restriction prices of 10-12 $ /mill , losing an account simply does n't matter in comparison to the gain of being dishonest and stealing from other players.As with many things , the more a person has invested in something , the more they 'll try to keep it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That theory doesn't hold water in other games that have smaller subscription fees (such as RS).RS (as an example to the extreme), has an economy that is almost built off currency and prices generated or affected by Pump-And-Dump clans, mage-boxing, account stealing, trust trading, player luring, and public price manipulation.The biggest reason for this, in my opinion, is that while EVE has a subscription fee of 15$/month, RS can be played for free or have additions for 5$/month.
With pre-trade restriction prices of 10-12$/mill, losing an account simply doesn't matter in comparison to the gain of being dishonest and stealing from other players.As with many things, the more a person has invested in something, the more they'll try to keep it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577779</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28578489</id>
	<title>Re:Interesting and Boring at the Same Time</title>
	<author>DrXym</author>
	<datestamp>1246740000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>This <a href="http://ravven.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/eve\_learningcurve.jpg" title="wordpress.com">learning curve</a> [wordpress.com] may explain why EVE is so intimidating / boring.
<p>
Anyway, once you get into it its actually a great game. Perhaps you have to have liked playing Elite back in the day to appreciate it. It's a massively online version Elite. Aside from all fighting you also get the politicking, scams, crimes and so forth that make the game world hugely dynamic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This learning curve [ wordpress.com ] may explain why EVE is so intimidating / boring .
Anyway , once you get into it its actually a great game .
Perhaps you have to have liked playing Elite back in the day to appreciate it .
It 's a massively online version Elite .
Aside from all fighting you also get the politicking , scams , crimes and so forth that make the game world hugely dynamic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This learning curve [wordpress.com] may explain why EVE is so intimidating / boring.
Anyway, once you get into it its actually a great game.
Perhaps you have to have liked playing Elite back in the day to appreciate it.
It's a massively online version Elite.
Aside from all fighting you also get the politicking, scams, crimes and so forth that make the game world hugely dynamic.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_07_04_021218.28577335</parent>
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