<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_06_28_1150253</id>
	<title>Controversy Over San Francisco Public Transportation Data</title>
	<author>Soulskill</author>
	<datestamp>1246195200000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="mailto:mark@antsclimbtree.com" rel="nofollow">paimin</a> writes <i>"A struggle is breaking out in San Francisco over whether the developer of a publicly-funded installation of real-time tracking for the San Francisco Municipal Transit Agency has <a href="http://sfappeal.com/news/2009/06/who-owns-sfmta-arrival-data.php">a right to control the use of data from the system</a>. The situation is not totally clear, but this sure seems like an attempt to use patent threats to hijack public data. The city paid for the system, and the developer claims he lost money on the deal, so now he's shutting down applications like <a href="http://routesy.com/">Routesy</a> and <a href="http://sf.munitime.com/">Munitime</a> that use data from the system unless they license the 'copyrighted' data from him."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>paimin writes " A struggle is breaking out in San Francisco over whether the developer of a publicly-funded installation of real-time tracking for the San Francisco Municipal Transit Agency has a right to control the use of data from the system .
The situation is not totally clear , but this sure seems like an attempt to use patent threats to hijack public data .
The city paid for the system , and the developer claims he lost money on the deal , so now he 's shutting down applications like Routesy and Munitime that use data from the system unless they license the 'copyrighted ' data from him .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>paimin writes "A struggle is breaking out in San Francisco over whether the developer of a publicly-funded installation of real-time tracking for the San Francisco Municipal Transit Agency has a right to control the use of data from the system.
The situation is not totally clear, but this sure seems like an attempt to use patent threats to hijack public data.
The city paid for the system, and the developer claims he lost money on the deal, so now he's shutting down applications like Routesy and Munitime that use data from the system unless they license the 'copyrighted' data from him.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28516077</id>
	<title>Expect more like this...</title>
	<author>cardpuncher</author>
	<datestamp>1246299000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can't sell an iPhone app unless Apple agrees. Someone doesn't like your app and writes a water-muddying letter to Apple. Apple doesn't like muddy water and pulls app from store. No other means of distribution. Geek squashed.</p><p>Ergo, don't buy an iPhone and don't produce apps for iPhones. Problem solved.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You ca n't sell an iPhone app unless Apple agrees .
Someone does n't like your app and writes a water-muddying letter to Apple .
Apple does n't like muddy water and pulls app from store .
No other means of distribution .
Geek squashed.Ergo , do n't buy an iPhone and do n't produce apps for iPhones .
Problem solved .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can't sell an iPhone app unless Apple agrees.
Someone doesn't like your app and writes a water-muddying letter to Apple.
Apple doesn't like muddy water and pulls app from store.
No other means of distribution.
Geek squashed.Ergo, don't buy an iPhone and don't produce apps for iPhones.
Problem solved.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28504023</id>
	<title>Arrival times != timetables</title>
	<author>abigsmurf</author>
	<datestamp>1246206000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>To me the author of the article is deliberately confusing public timetables with transmissions showing the position and expected arrival times of a bus.
<br> <br>
If the position and expected arrival time is calculated on the fly, that's more of a service than just pure publically available data. If the condition of this service being provided is that the data is confidential or restricted to licensees. The provided data is processed real time using their equiptment and code. It's one thing to say "at 2:12pm the bus is 5 miles from transponder 2A, 1/5 mile from 4B and 8 miles from 1E" which is pure statistics (albeit collected from private equiptment), but to say "it's just left the anystreet stop and will arrive at noname plaza in 6 minutes in the current traffic conditions", could be seen as editorialising. If you're able to get as much of this information whenever you want, it then goes beyond fair use too.
<br> <br>
An extreme argument of what the author is saying could be this: The fact that Michael Jackson died is public fact, a 400 word article going into the detail of how he died is copyrighted and subject to fair use restrictions. The interesting argument that applies here is, if that same news report was machine generated based on a few facts fed into it and the rest padded out through AI, could you copyright that?</htmltext>
<tokenext>To me the author of the article is deliberately confusing public timetables with transmissions showing the position and expected arrival times of a bus .
If the position and expected arrival time is calculated on the fly , that 's more of a service than just pure publically available data .
If the condition of this service being provided is that the data is confidential or restricted to licensees .
The provided data is processed real time using their equiptment and code .
It 's one thing to say " at 2 : 12pm the bus is 5 miles from transponder 2A , 1/5 mile from 4B and 8 miles from 1E " which is pure statistics ( albeit collected from private equiptment ) , but to say " it 's just left the anystreet stop and will arrive at noname plaza in 6 minutes in the current traffic conditions " , could be seen as editorialising .
If you 're able to get as much of this information whenever you want , it then goes beyond fair use too .
An extreme argument of what the author is saying could be this : The fact that Michael Jackson died is public fact , a 400 word article going into the detail of how he died is copyrighted and subject to fair use restrictions .
The interesting argument that applies here is , if that same news report was machine generated based on a few facts fed into it and the rest padded out through AI , could you copyright that ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To me the author of the article is deliberately confusing public timetables with transmissions showing the position and expected arrival times of a bus.
If the position and expected arrival time is calculated on the fly, that's more of a service than just pure publically available data.
If the condition of this service being provided is that the data is confidential or restricted to licensees.
The provided data is processed real time using their equiptment and code.
It's one thing to say "at 2:12pm the bus is 5 miles from transponder 2A, 1/5 mile from 4B and 8 miles from 1E" which is pure statistics (albeit collected from private equiptment), but to say "it's just left the anystreet stop and will arrive at noname plaza in 6 minutes in the current traffic conditions", could be seen as editorialising.
If you're able to get as much of this information whenever you want, it then goes beyond fair use too.
An extreme argument of what the author is saying could be this: The fact that Michael Jackson died is public fact, a 400 word article going into the detail of how he died is copyrighted and subject to fair use restrictions.
The interesting argument that applies here is, if that same news report was machine generated based on a few facts fed into it and the rest padded out through AI, could you copyright that?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503663</id>
	<title>Can you copyright a published prediction?</title>
	<author>Vellmont</author>
	<datestamp>1246203060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't know, I really hope not.  But my guess is that this douche-bag NBIS company could hire enough lawyers to make it not worth anyones money to find out.  Their only interest is protecting their own application.</p><p>Also remember this is a small subsidiary of the real company that produces the prediction software and system.  Someone thought it'd be a good idea to try to sell mobile applications to consumers, so they split off what looks like a dinky subsidiary.  The really stupid thing is this works at cross-purposes of the REAL company (the one who likely makes all the money) who just wants to sell these systems to cities to improve their transit systems.  Having a strong developer community developing software that interacts with YOUR system is a hell of a lot smarter that trying to protect the tiny amount of revenue this kind of application can provide.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know , I really hope not .
But my guess is that this douche-bag NBIS company could hire enough lawyers to make it not worth anyones money to find out .
Their only interest is protecting their own application.Also remember this is a small subsidiary of the real company that produces the prediction software and system .
Someone thought it 'd be a good idea to try to sell mobile applications to consumers , so they split off what looks like a dinky subsidiary .
The really stupid thing is this works at cross-purposes of the REAL company ( the one who likely makes all the money ) who just wants to sell these systems to cities to improve their transit systems .
Having a strong developer community developing software that interacts with YOUR system is a hell of a lot smarter that trying to protect the tiny amount of revenue this kind of application can provide .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know, I really hope not.
But my guess is that this douche-bag NBIS company could hire enough lawyers to make it not worth anyones money to find out.
Their only interest is protecting their own application.Also remember this is a small subsidiary of the real company that produces the prediction software and system.
Someone thought it'd be a good idea to try to sell mobile applications to consumers, so they split off what looks like a dinky subsidiary.
The really stupid thing is this works at cross-purposes of the REAL company (the one who likely makes all the money) who just wants to sell these systems to cities to improve their transit systems.
Having a strong developer community developing software that interacts with YOUR system is a hell of a lot smarter that trying to protect the tiny amount of revenue this kind of application can provide.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503209</id>
	<title>Me things he looses</title>
	<author>stevew</author>
	<datestamp>1246199400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Gee - last I heard - you couldn't copyright a database. Further, unless he specifically provided for it in his contract up front, work done for hire belongs to he who pays. If you under-price your services, that isn't the cities fault.</p><p>Finally, what about the guy who thought he was HELPING the city and county of SF by not giving the other admins the passwords. They locked his butt up.  SF doesn't play nice when under pressure.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Gee - last I heard - you could n't copyright a database .
Further , unless he specifically provided for it in his contract up front , work done for hire belongs to he who pays .
If you under-price your services , that is n't the cities fault.Finally , what about the guy who thought he was HELPING the city and county of SF by not giving the other admins the passwords .
They locked his butt up .
SF does n't play nice when under pressure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Gee - last I heard - you couldn't copyright a database.
Further, unless he specifically provided for it in his contract up front, work done for hire belongs to he who pays.
If you under-price your services, that isn't the cities fault.Finally, what about the guy who thought he was HELPING the city and county of SF by not giving the other admins the passwords.
They locked his butt up.
SF doesn't play nice when under pressure.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503927</id>
	<title>where is the company? where does he live?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246205340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>yust yoking youse yall<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:p</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>yust yoking youse yall : p</tokentext>
<sentencetext>yust yoking youse yall :p</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28505789</id>
	<title>Well I hope he can get a few bucks because...</title>
	<author>BlackBloq</author>
	<datestamp>1246217400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>  What company would I pay that has a silly mandate such as this.  I would rather eat nails then let such a deal be struck by my lawyers! I would never talk to or deal with a nitwit who claims right or tries to claim right to my data. He is awaiting the loss of his assets due to incomprehensible lack of new business! That would be like the creators of a 3d animation program claiming to own the rights to a movie because their software was used. Good luck !</htmltext>
<tokenext>What company would I pay that has a silly mandate such as this .
I would rather eat nails then let such a deal be struck by my lawyers !
I would never talk to or deal with a nitwit who claims right or tries to claim right to my data .
He is awaiting the loss of his assets due to incomprehensible lack of new business !
That would be like the creators of a 3d animation program claiming to own the rights to a movie because their software was used .
Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>  What company would I pay that has a silly mandate such as this.
I would rather eat nails then let such a deal be struck by my lawyers!
I would never talk to or deal with a nitwit who claims right or tries to claim right to my data.
He is awaiting the loss of his assets due to incomprehensible lack of new business!
That would be like the creators of a 3d animation program claiming to own the rights to a movie because their software was used.
Good luck !</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28505311</id>
	<title>Make up your mind.</title>
	<author>John Hasler</author>
	<datestamp>1246214460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...attempt to use patent threats...<br>&gt;<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...<br>&gt;<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...unless they license the 'copyrighted' data...</p><p>Is this about patents or copyrights?  BTW data is not protected by copyright in the USA.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; ...attempt to use patent threats... &gt; ... &gt; ...unless they license the 'copyrighted ' data...Is this about patents or copyrights ?
BTW data is not protected by copyright in the USA .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; ...attempt to use patent threats...&gt; ...&gt; ...unless they license the 'copyrighted' data...Is this about patents or copyrights?
BTW data is not protected by copyright in the USA.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503577</id>
	<title>Re:Me things he looses</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246202280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Gee - last I heard - you couldn't copyright a database.</i></p><p>You heard wrong. Individual facts aren't copyrightable. But collect a large number into a database or encyclopedia and they are copyrightable.</p><p>But this is a different question from who owns the copyright, and the license terms, if any. This would be in the contracts...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Gee - last I heard - you could n't copyright a database.You heard wrong .
Individual facts are n't copyrightable .
But collect a large number into a database or encyclopedia and they are copyrightable.But this is a different question from who owns the copyright , and the license terms , if any .
This would be in the contracts.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Gee - last I heard - you couldn't copyright a database.You heard wrong.
Individual facts aren't copyrightable.
But collect a large number into a database or encyclopedia and they are copyrightable.But this is a different question from who owns the copyright, and the license terms, if any.
This would be in the contracts...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503209</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28504897</id>
	<title>Copyrighting databases</title>
	<author>nbauman</author>
	<datestamp>1246211820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Gee - last I heard - you couldn't copyright a database.</p></div><p>Yeah, that's what I heard.

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist\_Publications\_v.\_Rural\_Telephone\_Service" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist\_Publications\_v.\_Rural\_Telephone\_Service</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Gee - last I heard - you could n't copyright a database.Yeah , that 's what I heard .
http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist \ _Publications \ _v. \ _Rural \ _Telephone \ _Service [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Gee - last I heard - you couldn't copyright a database.Yeah, that's what I heard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist\_Publications\_v.\_Rural\_Telephone\_Service [wikipedia.org]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503209</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28506005</id>
	<title>Wheres the outrage?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246218840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People should be furious about this,  as a long-time MUNI rider I waited over 5 years to get this system working.  Secondly, why aren't I reading about this in the Chronicle or SFgate.com?  MUNI sucks worse then any of you all can possibly imagine.  Management is incompetent, buses often come two in a row back to back then nothing for 45 minutes.  Emplyees get bonuses for being extra rude to passengers, well at least it seems that way.  Buses are old, and dirty.  The coup d' gras?  They're raising the fare to $2(US) in 2 days.  FAIL.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People should be furious about this , as a long-time MUNI rider I waited over 5 years to get this system working .
Secondly , why are n't I reading about this in the Chronicle or SFgate.com ?
MUNI sucks worse then any of you all can possibly imagine .
Management is incompetent , buses often come two in a row back to back then nothing for 45 minutes .
Emplyees get bonuses for being extra rude to passengers , well at least it seems that way .
Buses are old , and dirty .
The coup d ' gras ?
They 're raising the fare to $ 2 ( US ) in 2 days .
FAIL .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People should be furious about this,  as a long-time MUNI rider I waited over 5 years to get this system working.
Secondly, why aren't I reading about this in the Chronicle or SFgate.com?
MUNI sucks worse then any of you all can possibly imagine.
Management is incompetent, buses often come two in a row back to back then nothing for 45 minutes.
Emplyees get bonuses for being extra rude to passengers, well at least it seems that way.
Buses are old, and dirty.
The coup d' gras?
They're raising the fare to $2(US) in 2 days.
FAIL.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503675</id>
	<title>Re:Me things he looses</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246203120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The buses' movement is public data, but the article mentions that transponders were attached to buses to allow this data to be collected. Who paid for this (the article doesn't say)?</p><p>If I pay to collect the data &amp; generate a database that doesn't mean that I can be forced to give the data away. But also, I can't stop anybody else from collecting the data &amp; making their own database. If you don't want to buy it from me go forth &amp; make your own database.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The buses ' movement is public data , but the article mentions that transponders were attached to buses to allow this data to be collected .
Who paid for this ( the article does n't say ) ? If I pay to collect the data &amp; generate a database that does n't mean that I can be forced to give the data away .
But also , I ca n't stop anybody else from collecting the data &amp; making their own database .
If you do n't want to buy it from me go forth &amp; make your own database .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The buses' movement is public data, but the article mentions that transponders were attached to buses to allow this data to be collected.
Who paid for this (the article doesn't say)?If I pay to collect the data &amp; generate a database that doesn't mean that I can be forced to give the data away.
But also, I can't stop anybody else from collecting the data &amp; making their own database.
If you don't want to buy it from me go forth &amp; make your own database.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503363</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28507525</id>
	<title>Re:Copywrongs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246188060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ahh, but I remember well when NextBus first started.  They wrote the software and then sold the service to various transit systems.  (There are many the run NextBus services - or at least trials - see <a href="http://www.nextbus.com/" title="nextbus.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.nextbus.com/</a> [nextbus.com])</p><p>Now, NextBus owns all of the code, IP rights, and equipment that runs the service.  They got paid to install tracking devices on the buses in Muni but other systems already had tracking devices so they just used the tracking data feeds.  What NextBus did was take that tracking information and, with their software technology, produce useful information about future arrival times at bus stops.  (aka Predictions).  This information was generated within the NextBus computers with NextBus developed software.</p><p>So, now while I agree that the behaviors here seem a bit strange, I would doubt that the generated data would belong to Muni unless there was a contract that specifically said so.  I would doubt that a photographer would say that the pictures belong to the plants or people that he photographed with his camera using his skill...  Even if paid to do so - such as wedding photographers owning the copyright on the photos from your wedding...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ahh , but I remember well when NextBus first started .
They wrote the software and then sold the service to various transit systems .
( There are many the run NextBus services - or at least trials - see http : //www.nextbus.com/ [ nextbus.com ] ) Now , NextBus owns all of the code , IP rights , and equipment that runs the service .
They got paid to install tracking devices on the buses in Muni but other systems already had tracking devices so they just used the tracking data feeds .
What NextBus did was take that tracking information and , with their software technology , produce useful information about future arrival times at bus stops .
( aka Predictions ) .
This information was generated within the NextBus computers with NextBus developed software.So , now while I agree that the behaviors here seem a bit strange , I would doubt that the generated data would belong to Muni unless there was a contract that specifically said so .
I would doubt that a photographer would say that the pictures belong to the plants or people that he photographed with his camera using his skill... Even if paid to do so - such as wedding photographers owning the copyright on the photos from your wedding.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ahh, but I remember well when NextBus first started.
They wrote the software and then sold the service to various transit systems.
(There are many the run NextBus services - or at least trials - see http://www.nextbus.com/ [nextbus.com])Now, NextBus owns all of the code, IP rights, and equipment that runs the service.
They got paid to install tracking devices on the buses in Muni but other systems already had tracking devices so they just used the tracking data feeds.
What NextBus did was take that tracking information and, with their software technology, produce useful information about future arrival times at bus stops.
(aka Predictions).
This information was generated within the NextBus computers with NextBus developed software.So, now while I agree that the behaviors here seem a bit strange, I would doubt that the generated data would belong to Muni unless there was a contract that specifically said so.
I would doubt that a photographer would say that the pictures belong to the plants or people that he photographed with his camera using his skill...  Even if paid to do so - such as wedding photographers owning the copyright on the photos from your wedding...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503811</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28654281</id>
	<title>Re:What part is public, and what part is proprieta</title>
	<author>senior dad</author>
	<datestamp>1247216820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I just interviewed all of the parties except gray island ceo. the audio can be heard at <a href="http://seniordad.com/SrDad/SFBR/SFBR.html" title="seniordad.com" rel="nofollow">http://seniordad.com/SrDad/SFBR/SFBR.html</a> [seniordad.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>I just interviewed all of the parties except gray island ceo .
the audio can be heard at http : //seniordad.com/SrDad/SFBR/SFBR.html [ seniordad.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just interviewed all of the parties except gray island ceo.
the audio can be heard at http://seniordad.com/SrDad/SFBR/SFBR.html [seniordad.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28505201</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28504569</id>
	<title>Re:Google Uses It</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246209900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, Google doesn't use it.  Google uses the published schedules. NBIS uses realtime GPS position data of the vehicles.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , Google does n't use it .
Google uses the published schedules .
NBIS uses realtime GPS position data of the vehicles .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, Google doesn't use it.
Google uses the published schedules.
NBIS uses realtime GPS position data of the vehicles.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503203</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503277</id>
	<title>This is only the beginning</title>
	<author>HangingChad</author>
	<datestamp>1246199940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It may be bus arrival times in San Francisco today, but this whole notion of data being exclusive property isn't new and isn't going away.  And if Bilski stands and ends up partially undermining software patents, then I would hazard a guess that more companies are going to try monetizing the data aggregates and outputs.  Even without Bilski as software becomes more of a commodity market, then data and data aggregates will become the value market.

</p><p>This isn't a new concept.  The public pays for scientific research at an institution of higher learning also funded by tax dollars, yet sometimes the only way you could get a copy of the results is pay for an expensive subscription to a scientific journal, which claims copyright on the published data.

</p><p>This case probably isn't a good example and the developer trying to be the data gatekeeper is going to lose, but it's only the beginning. There will be more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It may be bus arrival times in San Francisco today , but this whole notion of data being exclusive property is n't new and is n't going away .
And if Bilski stands and ends up partially undermining software patents , then I would hazard a guess that more companies are going to try monetizing the data aggregates and outputs .
Even without Bilski as software becomes more of a commodity market , then data and data aggregates will become the value market .
This is n't a new concept .
The public pays for scientific research at an institution of higher learning also funded by tax dollars , yet sometimes the only way you could get a copy of the results is pay for an expensive subscription to a scientific journal , which claims copyright on the published data .
This case probably is n't a good example and the developer trying to be the data gatekeeper is going to lose , but it 's only the beginning .
There will be more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It may be bus arrival times in San Francisco today, but this whole notion of data being exclusive property isn't new and isn't going away.
And if Bilski stands and ends up partially undermining software patents, then I would hazard a guess that more companies are going to try monetizing the data aggregates and outputs.
Even without Bilski as software becomes more of a commodity market, then data and data aggregates will become the value market.
This isn't a new concept.
The public pays for scientific research at an institution of higher learning also funded by tax dollars, yet sometimes the only way you could get a copy of the results is pay for an expensive subscription to a scientific journal, which claims copyright on the published data.
This case probably isn't a good example and the developer trying to be the data gatekeeper is going to lose, but it's only the beginning.
There will be more.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28569327</id>
	<title>Re:Arrival times != timetables</title>
	<author>theodicey</author>
	<datestamp>1246612680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>To me the author of the article is deliberately confusing public timetables with transmissions showing the position and expected arrival times of a bus. </i>
</p><p>No, that's not even an issue. The timetables are entirely public data generated by Muni (SFMTA) and are available many ways including Google Transit's GTFS. The author seems aware of this.
</p><p>The only issue is about who has the rights to the data generated by Nextbus's proprietary prediction algorithms. According to Muni's spokesperson they have already paid for this data, and presumably have an ironclad contract saying that. Even if this NBIS company is some part of Nextbus's parent company, they have no ability to interfere in this contract.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To me the author of the article is deliberately confusing public timetables with transmissions showing the position and expected arrival times of a bus .
No , that 's not even an issue .
The timetables are entirely public data generated by Muni ( SFMTA ) and are available many ways including Google Transit 's GTFS .
The author seems aware of this .
The only issue is about who has the rights to the data generated by Nextbus 's proprietary prediction algorithms .
According to Muni 's spokesperson they have already paid for this data , and presumably have an ironclad contract saying that .
Even if this NBIS company is some part of Nextbus 's parent company , they have no ability to interfere in this contract .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> To me the author of the article is deliberately confusing public timetables with transmissions showing the position and expected arrival times of a bus.
No, that's not even an issue.
The timetables are entirely public data generated by Muni (SFMTA) and are available many ways including Google Transit's GTFS.
The author seems aware of this.
The only issue is about who has the rights to the data generated by Nextbus's proprietary prediction algorithms.
According to Muni's spokesperson they have already paid for this data, and presumably have an ironclad contract saying that.
Even if this NBIS company is some part of Nextbus's parent company, they have no ability to interfere in this contract.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28504023</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503389</id>
	<title>This seems comparable to uni students</title>
	<author>wjh31</author>
	<datestamp>1246200960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Seems a comparable situation to when students have claimed rights over their own work that has been funded by their university. As i recall they all ended up with the university winning.<br> <br>I also seem to recall a few occations of similar stuff where workers stuff was claimed by their employers, also tended to go in favour of the employer, usually especially so because it was stated in whatever contract</htmltext>
<tokenext>Seems a comparable situation to when students have claimed rights over their own work that has been funded by their university .
As i recall they all ended up with the university winning .
I also seem to recall a few occations of similar stuff where workers stuff was claimed by their employers , also tended to go in favour of the employer , usually especially so because it was stated in whatever contract</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seems a comparable situation to when students have claimed rights over their own work that has been funded by their university.
As i recall they all ended up with the university winning.
I also seem to recall a few occations of similar stuff where workers stuff was claimed by their employers, also tended to go in favour of the employer, usually especially so because it was stated in whatever contract</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503169</id>
	<title>Whoops</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246198980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Just because you lose money doesn't mean you can change the rules after the fact. I guess this guy shouldn't have bid so low to get that contract.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just because you lose money does n't mean you can change the rules after the fact .
I guess this guy should n't have bid so low to get that contract .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just because you lose money doesn't mean you can change the rules after the fact.
I guess this guy shouldn't have bid so low to get that contract.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503845</id>
	<title>Re:Whoops</title>
	<author>poetmatt</author>
	<datestamp>1246204740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't get all of the controversy, but the info on Routesy.com is certainly a bit interesting. It sounds like the developer didn't have interest in charging for the app. "NextBus Information Systems, not to be confused with NextBus, claims that an agreement from 2004 gives them full authorization to collect $1 per download from any application developer. Even after I offered to make Routesy free, they still insist on collecting a fee."</p><p>Sounds like Muni wanted him to pay them, and he understandably has no obligation by some random 3rd party.</p><p>Did I not understand the whole situation per that story and the actual newslink?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't get all of the controversy , but the info on Routesy.com is certainly a bit interesting .
It sounds like the developer did n't have interest in charging for the app .
" NextBus Information Systems , not to be confused with NextBus , claims that an agreement from 2004 gives them full authorization to collect $ 1 per download from any application developer .
Even after I offered to make Routesy free , they still insist on collecting a fee .
" Sounds like Muni wanted him to pay them , and he understandably has no obligation by some random 3rd party.Did I not understand the whole situation per that story and the actual newslink ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't get all of the controversy, but the info on Routesy.com is certainly a bit interesting.
It sounds like the developer didn't have interest in charging for the app.
"NextBus Information Systems, not to be confused with NextBus, claims that an agreement from 2004 gives them full authorization to collect $1 per download from any application developer.
Even after I offered to make Routesy free, they still insist on collecting a fee.
"Sounds like Muni wanted him to pay them, and he understandably has no obligation by some random 3rd party.Did I not understand the whole situation per that story and the actual newslink?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503169</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503811</id>
	<title>Copywrongs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246204440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the data could be copyrighted, ownership would go to the creator of the data. That would be the city of SF, not the programmer. They created the data with the software they contracted him to produce for them, then they ran their software on their hardware, watching their mass transit movements and recording the results on their computers. The programmer could not own the data because he could not create it. He has no mass transit system with which to do so.</p><p>In any case, it is highly unlikely anyone could copyright the data. Copyright requires at least minimal creativity. Data produced automatically requires no creativity. In addition, works produced by the government (ie. by the public for their own good via their chosen representatives) cannot be copyrighted.</p><p>The programmers actions are likely to be considered by the court (unless he backs down very quickly) blackmail. These days, if the actions threaten public safety, they might even be considered terrorism. Under these charges, even if he backs down the damage is done and he might well be looking at many years in prison. The SF DA could file such charges to scare him as they often do with other charges. But terrorism charges tend to go all the way through once the process is started. To prevent others from trying this stunt, they may well do just this. And I hope they do.</p><p>The contract may have given him the right to use the data. There's no doubt it my mind that it did not give him sole use, much less state that he also had sole control over its use. There's no way the SF city attorneys would have allowed that in a contract.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the data could be copyrighted , ownership would go to the creator of the data .
That would be the city of SF , not the programmer .
They created the data with the software they contracted him to produce for them , then they ran their software on their hardware , watching their mass transit movements and recording the results on their computers .
The programmer could not own the data because he could not create it .
He has no mass transit system with which to do so.In any case , it is highly unlikely anyone could copyright the data .
Copyright requires at least minimal creativity .
Data produced automatically requires no creativity .
In addition , works produced by the government ( ie .
by the public for their own good via their chosen representatives ) can not be copyrighted.The programmers actions are likely to be considered by the court ( unless he backs down very quickly ) blackmail .
These days , if the actions threaten public safety , they might even be considered terrorism .
Under these charges , even if he backs down the damage is done and he might well be looking at many years in prison .
The SF DA could file such charges to scare him as they often do with other charges .
But terrorism charges tend to go all the way through once the process is started .
To prevent others from trying this stunt , they may well do just this .
And I hope they do.The contract may have given him the right to use the data .
There 's no doubt it my mind that it did not give him sole use , much less state that he also had sole control over its use .
There 's no way the SF city attorneys would have allowed that in a contract .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the data could be copyrighted, ownership would go to the creator of the data.
That would be the city of SF, not the programmer.
They created the data with the software they contracted him to produce for them, then they ran their software on their hardware, watching their mass transit movements and recording the results on their computers.
The programmer could not own the data because he could not create it.
He has no mass transit system with which to do so.In any case, it is highly unlikely anyone could copyright the data.
Copyright requires at least minimal creativity.
Data produced automatically requires no creativity.
In addition, works produced by the government (ie.
by the public for their own good via their chosen representatives) cannot be copyrighted.The programmers actions are likely to be considered by the court (unless he backs down very quickly) blackmail.
These days, if the actions threaten public safety, they might even be considered terrorism.
Under these charges, even if he backs down the damage is done and he might well be looking at many years in prison.
The SF DA could file such charges to scare him as they often do with other charges.
But terrorism charges tend to go all the way through once the process is started.
To prevent others from trying this stunt, they may well do just this.
And I hope they do.The contract may have given him the right to use the data.
There's no doubt it my mind that it did not give him sole use, much less state that he also had sole control over its use.
There's no way the SF city attorneys would have allowed that in a contract.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28504951</id>
	<title>Re:Me things he looses</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246212240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Gee - last I heard - you couldn't copyright a database.</p></div><p>You <em>can</em> copyright a database.,</p><p>You <em>can't</em> copyright the data contained therein. (in the US, anyway)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Gee - last I heard - you could n't copyright a database.You can copyright a database.,You ca n't copyright the data contained therein .
( in the US , anyway )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Gee - last I heard - you couldn't copyright a database.You can copyright a database.,You can't copyright the data contained therein.
(in the US, anyway)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503209</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503461</id>
	<title>Tactic</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246201380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They are hoping the City won't take it to court, but settle the case.  It's a type of judicial blackmail to make back the $$$ they lost.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They are hoping the City wo n't take it to court , but settle the case .
It 's a type of judicial blackmail to make back the $ $ $ they lost .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They are hoping the City won't take it to court, but settle the case.
It's a type of judicial blackmail to make back the $$$ they lost.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28510949</id>
	<title>Re:Whoops</title>
	<author>wujing</author>
	<datestamp>1246307040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://www.watchmvp.com/Rolex.html" title="watchmvp.com" rel="nofollow">Rolex</a> [watchmvp.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Rolex [ watchmvp.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Rolex [watchmvp.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503169</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503397</id>
	<title>Data and copyright?</title>
	<author>QuantumV</author>
	<datestamp>1246201020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I thought you there was no copyright on data under US law. C.f. the OpenStreetMap legal issues <a href="http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=262" title="opengeodata.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=262</a> [opengeodata.org]. There may be contractual rights in the picture, but only if those were negotiated already.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I thought you there was no copyright on data under US law .
C.f. the OpenStreetMap legal issues http : //www.opengeodata.org/ ? p = 262 [ opengeodata.org ] .
There may be contractual rights in the picture , but only if those were negotiated already .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I thought you there was no copyright on data under US law.
C.f. the OpenStreetMap legal issues http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=262 [opengeodata.org].
There may be contractual rights in the picture, but only if those were negotiated already.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503251</id>
	<title>Buy a car</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246199700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Problem solved.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Problem solved .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Problem solved.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28506497</id>
	<title>Contract?</title>
	<author>lymond01</author>
	<datestamp>1246222620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You would think this would already be in the contract they signed.  I mean, it's not only programmers who have to guess the possible errors users will make ("Enter the number of fingers on your right hand:  [Same as my left.]").  Lawyers and consultants should have stipulations if something doesn't occur as planned.  Point to page Section 27, paragraph 3, and avoid the cheesy media coverage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You would think this would already be in the contract they signed .
I mean , it 's not only programmers who have to guess the possible errors users will make ( " Enter the number of fingers on your right hand : [ Same as my left. ] " ) .
Lawyers and consultants should have stipulations if something does n't occur as planned .
Point to page Section 27 , paragraph 3 , and avoid the cheesy media coverage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You would think this would already be in the contract they signed.
I mean, it's not only programmers who have to guess the possible errors users will make ("Enter the number of fingers on your right hand:  [Same as my left.]").
Lawyers and consultants should have stipulations if something doesn't occur as planned.
Point to page Section 27, paragraph 3, and avoid the cheesy media coverage.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28506273</id>
	<title>Re:Whoops</title>
	<author>Nutria</author>
	<datestamp>1246220940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>If NBIS owns (copyright owner) the data, he has to pay whatever they charge. If the San Francisco local government owns the data, then it's probably public data, I'm not sure. NBIS may own copyrights on that data because they have invested tens or hundreds of thousands in employees and installing those transponders.</i></p><p>I work for the company that runs a big chunk of E-ZPass, and even though</p><ul><li>the transponders are built by a private company,</li><li>"rented" to citizens from stores leased by us, a private company,</li><li>they send their money to us, and not the government,<b>it would never even occur to us</b> to treat it as if it were our data.<p>Someone in SanFran City Hall is doing a piss-poor job of contract management!</p></li></ul></htmltext>
<tokenext>If NBIS owns ( copyright owner ) the data , he has to pay whatever they charge .
If the San Francisco local government owns the data , then it 's probably public data , I 'm not sure .
NBIS may own copyrights on that data because they have invested tens or hundreds of thousands in employees and installing those transponders.I work for the company that runs a big chunk of E-ZPass , and even thoughthe transponders are built by a private company , " rented " to citizens from stores leased by us , a private company,they send their money to us , and not the government,it would never even occur to us to treat it as if it were our data.Someone in SanFran City Hall is doing a piss-poor job of contract management !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If NBIS owns (copyright owner) the data, he has to pay whatever they charge.
If the San Francisco local government owns the data, then it's probably public data, I'm not sure.
NBIS may own copyrights on that data because they have invested tens or hundreds of thousands in employees and installing those transponders.I work for the company that runs a big chunk of E-ZPass, and even thoughthe transponders are built by a private company,"rented" to citizens from stores leased by us, a private company,they send their money to us, and not the government,it would never even occur to us to treat it as if it were our data.Someone in SanFran City Hall is doing a piss-poor job of contract management!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503711</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28505681</id>
	<title>Re:Me things he looses</title>
	<author>mrchaotica</author>
	<datestamp>1246216680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But maps <em>are</em> "facts themselves." Unless, of course, you want to argue that there's "artistry" in deciding what kind of information to put on the map -- but then you could argue that there's exactly the same kind of artistry in deciding what to include in a database!</p><p>In other words, if the Copyright Act of 1790 made a distinction between maps and databases, then it was <em>wrong</em>. Either both should be copyrightable, or (better yet) <em>neither</em> should be!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But maps are " facts themselves .
" Unless , of course , you want to argue that there 's " artistry " in deciding what kind of information to put on the map -- but then you could argue that there 's exactly the same kind of artistry in deciding what to include in a database ! In other words , if the Copyright Act of 1790 made a distinction between maps and databases , then it was wrong .
Either both should be copyrightable , or ( better yet ) neither should be !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But maps are "facts themselves.
" Unless, of course, you want to argue that there's "artistry" in deciding what kind of information to put on the map -- but then you could argue that there's exactly the same kind of artistry in deciding what to include in a database!In other words, if the Copyright Act of 1790 made a distinction between maps and databases, then it was wrong.
Either both should be copyrightable, or (better yet) neither should be!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503861</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28508675</id>
	<title>Re:Me things he looses</title>
	<author>Registered Coward v2</author>
	<datestamp>1246198620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Gee - last I heard - you couldn't copyright a database. Further, unless he specifically provided for it in his contract up front, work done for hire belongs to he who pays. If you under-price your services, that isn't the cities fault.</p></div><p>Actually, databases are generally copyrightable as a compilation; however the underlying data generally isn't.  So, if he is collecting real time data from muni buses; data  muni makes available, I don't see how he is violating someone else's copyright.  It's not like he is downloading a thrid party database, which might be protected.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Gee - last I heard - you could n't copyright a database .
Further , unless he specifically provided for it in his contract up front , work done for hire belongs to he who pays .
If you under-price your services , that is n't the cities fault.Actually , databases are generally copyrightable as a compilation ; however the underlying data generally is n't .
So , if he is collecting real time data from muni buses ; data muni makes available , I do n't see how he is violating someone else 's copyright .
It 's not like he is downloading a thrid party database , which might be protected .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Gee - last I heard - you couldn't copyright a database.
Further, unless he specifically provided for it in his contract up front, work done for hire belongs to he who pays.
If you under-price your services, that isn't the cities fault.Actually, databases are generally copyrightable as a compilation; however the underlying data generally isn't.
So, if he is collecting real time data from muni buses; data  muni makes available, I don't see how he is violating someone else's copyright.
It's not like he is downloading a thrid party database, which might be protected.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503209</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28504275</id>
	<title>Re:Me things he looses</title>
	<author>Paradise Pete</author>
	<datestamp>1246207980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> Maps are databases.</p></div></blockquote><p>

Maps are the presentation of data, not the data itself.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maps are databases .
Maps are the presentation of data , not the data itself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Maps are databases.
Maps are the presentation of data, not the data itself.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503363</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503203</id>
	<title>Google Uses It</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246199400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This isn't the first time someone has used this data; looks like they're too scared to go after the big guys.<br> <br>

<a href="http://maps.google.com/intl/en/landing/transit/" title="google.com" rel="nofollow">http://maps.google.com/intl/en/landing/transit/</a> [google.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is n't the first time someone has used this data ; looks like they 're too scared to go after the big guys .
http : //maps.google.com/intl/en/landing/transit/ [ google.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This isn't the first time someone has used this data; looks like they're too scared to go after the big guys.
http://maps.google.com/intl/en/landing/transit/ [google.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28504149</id>
	<title>Re:This is only the beginning</title>
	<author>bitingduck</author>
	<datestamp>1246206960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>This isn't a new concept.  The public pays for scientific research at an institution of higher learning also funded by tax dollars, yet sometimes the only way you could get a copy of the results is pay for an expensive subscription to a scientific journal, which claims copyright on the published data.</p></div><p>That model is starting to go away (with the publishers kicking and screaming).  The US government is starting to (started a while ago) include clauses in grant contracts that limit the exclusive data rights of the investigators, and also require gov't funded authors to use copyright transfer agreements that give the publishers a limited time for exclusive publication.  I haven't been keeping up closely, but it's inevitable and accelerating.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is n't a new concept .
The public pays for scientific research at an institution of higher learning also funded by tax dollars , yet sometimes the only way you could get a copy of the results is pay for an expensive subscription to a scientific journal , which claims copyright on the published data.That model is starting to go away ( with the publishers kicking and screaming ) .
The US government is starting to ( started a while ago ) include clauses in grant contracts that limit the exclusive data rights of the investigators , and also require gov't funded authors to use copyright transfer agreements that give the publishers a limited time for exclusive publication .
I have n't been keeping up closely , but it 's inevitable and accelerating .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This isn't a new concept.
The public pays for scientific research at an institution of higher learning also funded by tax dollars, yet sometimes the only way you could get a copy of the results is pay for an expensive subscription to a scientific journal, which claims copyright on the published data.That model is starting to go away (with the publishers kicking and screaming).
The US government is starting to (started a while ago) include clauses in grant contracts that limit the exclusive data rights of the investigators, and also require gov't funded authors to use copyright transfer agreements that give the publishers a limited time for exclusive publication.
I haven't been keeping up closely, but it's inevitable and accelerating.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503277</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28504243</id>
	<title>Re:Whoops</title>
	<author>Paradise Pete</author>
	<datestamp>1246207800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>NBIS may own copyrights on that data because they have invested tens or hundreds of thousands in employees and installing those transponders. They can only recoup the cost + make a profit by charging tens of thousands per month.</p></div></blockquote><p>
Their motivation is clear, but data is not typically copyrightable. That they have invested money and want to make a profit doesn't change that.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>NBIS may own copyrights on that data because they have invested tens or hundreds of thousands in employees and installing those transponders .
They can only recoup the cost + make a profit by charging tens of thousands per month .
Their motivation is clear , but data is not typically copyrightable .
That they have invested money and want to make a profit does n't change that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>NBIS may own copyrights on that data because they have invested tens or hundreds of thousands in employees and installing those transponders.
They can only recoup the cost + make a profit by charging tens of thousands per month.
Their motivation is clear, but data is not typically copyrightable.
That they have invested money and want to make a profit doesn't change that.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503711</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503711</id>
	<title>Re:Whoops</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246203480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If NBIS owns (copyright owner) the data, he has to pay whatever they charge. If the San Francisco local government owns the data, then it's probably public data, I'm not sure. NBIS may own copyrights on that data because they have invested tens or hundreds of thousands in employees and installing those transponders. They can only recoup the cost + make a profit by charging tens of thousands per month.</p><p>It's just business -- you can't walk into a BMW dealership and demand they give you a new car for $1,000. The seller sets the price, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If NBIS owns ( copyright owner ) the data , he has to pay whatever they charge .
If the San Francisco local government owns the data , then it 's probably public data , I 'm not sure .
NBIS may own copyrights on that data because they have invested tens or hundreds of thousands in employees and installing those transponders .
They can only recoup the cost + make a profit by charging tens of thousands per month.It 's just business -- you ca n't walk into a BMW dealership and demand they give you a new car for $ 1,000 .
The seller sets the price , and if you do n't like it , do n't buy it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If NBIS owns (copyright owner) the data, he has to pay whatever they charge.
If the San Francisco local government owns the data, then it's probably public data, I'm not sure.
NBIS may own copyrights on that data because they have invested tens or hundreds of thousands in employees and installing those transponders.
They can only recoup the cost + make a profit by charging tens of thousands per month.It's just business -- you can't walk into a BMW dealership and demand they give you a new car for $1,000.
The seller sets the price, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503169</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503861</id>
	<title>Re:Me things he looses</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246204860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Are you sure about that? Maps are databases.</p></div><p>Not in copyright lingo they aren't. Interestingly, maps were one of the original works mentioned in the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright\_Act\_of\_1790" title="wikipedia.org">earliest federal copyright act.</a> [wikipedia.org] "Databases" has a very different meaning; US copyright law has been loathe to grant protection to facts themselves. IIRC, the EU does have copyright protection (or some kind of protection) for databases.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Are you sure about that ?
Maps are databases.Not in copyright lingo they are n't .
Interestingly , maps were one of the original works mentioned in the earliest federal copyright act .
[ wikipedia.org ] " Databases " has a very different meaning ; US copyright law has been loathe to grant protection to facts themselves .
IIRC , the EU does have copyright protection ( or some kind of protection ) for databases .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are you sure about that?
Maps are databases.Not in copyright lingo they aren't.
Interestingly, maps were one of the original works mentioned in the earliest federal copyright act.
[wikipedia.org] "Databases" has a very different meaning; US copyright law has been loathe to grant protection to facts themselves.
IIRC, the EU does have copyright protection (or some kind of protection) for databases.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503363</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503585</id>
	<title>Complete nonsense..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246202340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1) The patent only grants exlusivity to the owner for the method itself, not the data.<br>2) The data is intrinisically owned by the City of SF.</p><p>Both these points will destroy and generally make the company look like money grubbing greed-monsters from the netherrealm.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 ) The patent only grants exlusivity to the owner for the method itself , not the data.2 ) The data is intrinisically owned by the City of SF.Both these points will destroy and generally make the company look like money grubbing greed-monsters from the netherrealm .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1) The patent only grants exlusivity to the owner for the method itself, not the data.2) The data is intrinisically owned by the City of SF.Both these points will destroy and generally make the company look like money grubbing greed-monsters from the netherrealm.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28507237</id>
	<title>Re:Me things he looses</title>
	<author>StrawberryFrog</author>
	<datestamp>1246186140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Unless, of course, you want to argue that there's "artistry" in deciding what kind of information to put on the map </i></p><p>Maps are a lot smaller than the territory they represent. They leave out most stuff. How could there not be skill and judgement (i.e. Artistry) in choosing what to show?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless , of course , you want to argue that there 's " artistry " in deciding what kind of information to put on the map Maps are a lot smaller than the territory they represent .
They leave out most stuff .
How could there not be skill and judgement ( i.e .
Artistry ) in choosing what to show ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless, of course, you want to argue that there's "artistry" in deciding what kind of information to put on the map Maps are a lot smaller than the territory they represent.
They leave out most stuff.
How could there not be skill and judgement (i.e.
Artistry) in choosing what to show?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28505681</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28504635</id>
	<title>Re:Me things he looses</title>
	<author>joconor</author>
	<datestamp>1246210320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You need to study up on this issue a bit. The disputed issue isn't a database, by which you presumably mean the published MUNI schedules. The issue is the *arrival prediction information* which NBIS claims is covered by patents. The arrival information is determined based on realtime reported GPS position of the MUNI vehicles. Then, presumably, NBIS applies some algorithm taking into account traffic patterns to predict when the vehicle will reach each of its stops.</p><p>The basic issue is that since this is a *publicly funded* project, can NBIS keep the public from using this information in any way they, and San Francisco, desire.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You need to study up on this issue a bit .
The disputed issue is n't a database , by which you presumably mean the published MUNI schedules .
The issue is the * arrival prediction information * which NBIS claims is covered by patents .
The arrival information is determined based on realtime reported GPS position of the MUNI vehicles .
Then , presumably , NBIS applies some algorithm taking into account traffic patterns to predict when the vehicle will reach each of its stops.The basic issue is that since this is a * publicly funded * project , can NBIS keep the public from using this information in any way they , and San Francisco , desire .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You need to study up on this issue a bit.
The disputed issue isn't a database, by which you presumably mean the published MUNI schedules.
The issue is the *arrival prediction information* which NBIS claims is covered by patents.
The arrival information is determined based on realtime reported GPS position of the MUNI vehicles.
Then, presumably, NBIS applies some algorithm taking into account traffic patterns to predict when the vehicle will reach each of its stops.The basic issue is that since this is a *publicly funded* project, can NBIS keep the public from using this information in any way they, and San Francisco, desire.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503209</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503633</id>
	<title>It's not the patents - it's just insane</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246202760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>NextBus' patents do not play a role in this. It is just plain access and who gets to play gatekeeper. Overall bizarre but one would expect that the City could usher one of their staff attorneys in and send NextBus Information System a c&amp;d.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>NextBus ' patents do not play a role in this .
It is just plain access and who gets to play gatekeeper .
Overall bizarre but one would expect that the City could usher one of their staff attorneys in and send NextBus Information System a c&amp;d .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>NextBus' patents do not play a role in this.
It is just plain access and who gets to play gatekeeper.
Overall bizarre but one would expect that the City could usher one of their staff attorneys in and send NextBus Information System a c&amp;d.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28505893</id>
	<title>Here is another CEO</title>
	<author>AnAdventurer</author>
	<datestamp>1246218060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That clearly deserves a raise, what a great business man!</htmltext>
<tokenext>That clearly deserves a raise , what a great business man !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That clearly deserves a raise, what a great business man!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28509035</id>
	<title>Re:Arrival times != timetables</title>
	<author>Gregory Arenius</author>
	<datestamp>1246202400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The system uses GPS systems that use report in their location every minute.  Even if they predictions that nextbus publishes aren't open the raw gps feed could be very useful.  The nextbus prediction system leaves a lot to be desired; With the raw data I'm sure someone could do significantly better.</p><p>Cheers,<br>Greg</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The system uses GPS systems that use report in their location every minute .
Even if they predictions that nextbus publishes are n't open the raw gps feed could be very useful .
The nextbus prediction system leaves a lot to be desired ; With the raw data I 'm sure someone could do significantly better.Cheers,Greg</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The system uses GPS systems that use report in their location every minute.
Even if they predictions that nextbus publishes aren't open the raw gps feed could be very useful.
The nextbus prediction system leaves a lot to be desired; With the raw data I'm sure someone could do significantly better.Cheers,Greg</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28504023</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503225</id>
	<title>Lost money?</title>
	<author>mmarlett</author>
	<datestamp>1246199520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The developer, at least in the linked articles, does not claim that it has lost money on the system. It simply claims to own the data and that it has licensed the exclusive rights (from another private company) to develop with the data. The question becomes, "So, OK, you have paid to develop this data, but why? It is, after all, public data."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The developer , at least in the linked articles , does not claim that it has lost money on the system .
It simply claims to own the data and that it has licensed the exclusive rights ( from another private company ) to develop with the data .
The question becomes , " So , OK , you have paid to develop this data , but why ?
It is , after all , public data .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The developer, at least in the linked articles, does not claim that it has lost money on the system.
It simply claims to own the data and that it has licensed the exclusive rights (from another private company) to develop with the data.
The question becomes, "So, OK, you have paid to develop this data, but why?
It is, after all, public data.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28507567</id>
	<title>Re:This is only the beginning</title>
	<author>jwilty</author>
	<datestamp>1246188420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>This isn't a new concept.  The public pays for scientific research at an institution of higher learning also funded by tax dollars, yet sometimes the only way you could get a copy of the results is pay for an expensive subscription to a scientific journal, which claims copyright on the published data.

</p></div><p>This is a good example...one that has been recently addressed by the <a href="http://publicaccess.nih.gov/" title="nih.gov" rel="nofollow">NIH public access policy</a> [nih.gov], much to the chagrin of the "expensive scientific journals."  As the Internet makes data mining more accessible (and therefore more common), I think we'll see more of these types of arrangements for government-funded projects.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is n't a new concept .
The public pays for scientific research at an institution of higher learning also funded by tax dollars , yet sometimes the only way you could get a copy of the results is pay for an expensive subscription to a scientific journal , which claims copyright on the published data .
This is a good example...one that has been recently addressed by the NIH public access policy [ nih.gov ] , much to the chagrin of the " expensive scientific journals .
" As the Internet makes data mining more accessible ( and therefore more common ) , I think we 'll see more of these types of arrangements for government-funded projects .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This isn't a new concept.
The public pays for scientific research at an institution of higher learning also funded by tax dollars, yet sometimes the only way you could get a copy of the results is pay for an expensive subscription to a scientific journal, which claims copyright on the published data.
This is a good example...one that has been recently addressed by the NIH public access policy [nih.gov], much to the chagrin of the "expensive scientific journals.
"  As the Internet makes data mining more accessible (and therefore more common), I think we'll see more of these types of arrangements for government-funded projects.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503277</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28506965</id>
	<title>Re:Buy a car</title>
	<author>MrEricSir</author>
	<datestamp>1246183440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>After I moved to SF, I sold my car.  No need for it here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>After I moved to SF , I sold my car .
No need for it here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After I moved to SF, I sold my car.
No need for it here.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503251</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28517693</id>
	<title>Wait, wut?</title>
	<author>Impy the Impiuos Imp</author>
	<datestamp>1246305300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm confused.  Is this a patent problems thread, or a some-government-official-screwed-up-a-contract-again thread?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm confused .
Is this a patent problems thread , or a some-government-official-screwed-up-a-contract-again thread ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm confused.
Is this a patent problems thread, or a some-government-official-screwed-up-a-contract-again thread?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28504601</id>
	<title>Re:Whoops</title>
	<author>vux984</author>
	<datestamp>1246210080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>It's just business -- you can't walk into a BMW dealership and demand they give you a new car for $1,000. The seller sets the price, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.</i></p><p>But if you do walk into a BWM dealership and ask them for the best price on a BMW complete with a navigation system that lets you see where you've driven, how fast, what your fuel efficience was, etc, etc, etc.</p><p>They turn around and sell you a car; but it turns out it was below their cost.</p><p>They can't turn then around and say that all the data produced by the navigation system actually belongs to them and that you need to pay copyright license fees in order to see the data your navigation system has been collecting for you... (er for them??).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's just business -- you ca n't walk into a BMW dealership and demand they give you a new car for $ 1,000 .
The seller sets the price , and if you do n't like it , do n't buy it.But if you do walk into a BWM dealership and ask them for the best price on a BMW complete with a navigation system that lets you see where you 've driven , how fast , what your fuel efficience was , etc , etc , etc.They turn around and sell you a car ; but it turns out it was below their cost.They ca n't turn then around and say that all the data produced by the navigation system actually belongs to them and that you need to pay copyright license fees in order to see the data your navigation system has been collecting for you... ( er for them ? ?
) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's just business -- you can't walk into a BMW dealership and demand they give you a new car for $1,000.
The seller sets the price, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.But if you do walk into a BWM dealership and ask them for the best price on a BMW complete with a navigation system that lets you see where you've driven, how fast, what your fuel efficience was, etc, etc, etc.They turn around and sell you a car; but it turns out it was below their cost.They can't turn then around and say that all the data produced by the navigation system actually belongs to them and that you need to pay copyright license fees in order to see the data your navigation system has been collecting for you... (er for them??
).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503711</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503363</id>
	<title>Re:Me things he looses</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246200660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Gee - last I heard - you couldn't copyright a database.</i></p><p>Are you sure about that? Maps are databases.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Gee - last I heard - you could n't copyright a database.Are you sure about that ?
Maps are databases .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Gee - last I heard - you couldn't copyright a database.Are you sure about that?
Maps are databases.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28503209</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_1150253.28505201</id>
	<title>What part is public, and what part is proprietary.</title>
	<author>Animats</author>
	<datestamp>1246213740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
I met the inventor of NextBus some years ago at the Hacker's Conference.  What they get from the bus is position, speed, and a few bits of data like the destination sign setting, "doors open" and "wheelchair lift deployed".
After much crunching on this data, info like "Next bus at this stop: 6 minutes" comes out. Over time, as more data comes in, the predictions get better.  It's a good machine learning problem, because you have actuals; you can tell when the bus eventually gets to the stop, so you have hard data from which to validate the prediction algorithm.  You don't even need a map.
</p><p>
The early business plan for NextBus had a little dedicated receiver they were going to sell to consumers. The idea was that you have one at home, and it tells you the number of minutes until the next bus gets to the stop near your house, so you know when to leave the house.  That was before the World Wide Web, so that wasn't necessary.
</p><p>
Originally, Muni management hated the system, because it was too honest about their bad service.  But after much political effort, eventually it was deployed on a few lines, where it was very popular. Then it was put in everywhere.
</p><p>
Muni probably owns the raw data, and NextBus probably owns the predictions.  I'm not sure on that, though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I met the inventor of NextBus some years ago at the Hacker 's Conference .
What they get from the bus is position , speed , and a few bits of data like the destination sign setting , " doors open " and " wheelchair lift deployed " .
After much crunching on this data , info like " Next bus at this stop : 6 minutes " comes out .
Over time , as more data comes in , the predictions get better .
It 's a good machine learning problem , because you have actuals ; you can tell when the bus eventually gets to the stop , so you have hard data from which to validate the prediction algorithm .
You do n't even need a map .
The early business plan for NextBus had a little dedicated receiver they were going to sell to consumers .
The idea was that you have one at home , and it tells you the number of minutes until the next bus gets to the stop near your house , so you know when to leave the house .
That was before the World Wide Web , so that was n't necessary .
Originally , Muni management hated the system , because it was too honest about their bad service .
But after much political effort , eventually it was deployed on a few lines , where it was very popular .
Then it was put in everywhere .
Muni probably owns the raw data , and NextBus probably owns the predictions .
I 'm not sure on that , though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I met the inventor of NextBus some years ago at the Hacker's Conference.
What they get from the bus is position, speed, and a few bits of data like the destination sign setting, "doors open" and "wheelchair lift deployed".
After much crunching on this data, info like "Next bus at this stop: 6 minutes" comes out.
Over time, as more data comes in, the predictions get better.
It's a good machine learning problem, because you have actuals; you can tell when the bus eventually gets to the stop, so you have hard data from which to validate the prediction algorithm.
You don't even need a map.
The early business plan for NextBus had a little dedicated receiver they were going to sell to consumers.
The idea was that you have one at home, and it tells you the number of minutes until the next bus gets to the stop near your house, so you know when to leave the house.
That was before the World Wide Web, so that wasn't necessary.
Originally, Muni management hated the system, because it was too honest about their bad service.
But after much political effort, eventually it was deployed on a few lines, where it was very popular.
Then it was put in everywhere.
Muni probably owns the raw data, and NextBus probably owns the predictions.
I'm not sure on that, though.</sentencetext>
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