<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_06_28_0344234</id>
	<title>The State of Munich's Ongoing Linux Migration</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1246179360000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="mailto:einfeldt@digitaltippingpTIGERoint.comminuscat" rel="nofollow">christian.einfeldt</a> writes <i>"The Munich decision to move its 14,000 desktops to Free Open Source Software created a big splash back in 2003 as news circulated of the third-largest German city's defection from Microsoft. When it was announced in 2003, the story garnered coverage even in the US, such as <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2003-07-13-microsoft-linux-munich\_x.htm">an extensive article</a> in USA Today on-line. Currently, about 60\% of desktops are using OpenOffice, with the remaining 40\% <a href="http://blog.worldlabel.com/2009/limux-where-the-munich-linux-revolution-is-today.html">to be completed by the end of 2009</a>.  Firefox and Thunderbird are being used in all of the city's desktop machines.  Ten percent of desktops are <a href="http://www.osor.eu/case\_studies/declaration-of-independence-the-limux-project-in-munich#section-0">running the LiMux Debian-based distro</a>, and 80\% will be running LiMux by 2012 at the latest. Autonomy was generally considered more important than cost savings, although the LiMux initiative is increasing competition in the IT industry in Munich already. The program has succeeded because the city administration has been careful to <a href="http://www.osor.eu/case\_studies/declaration-of-independence-the-limux-project-in-munich#section-12">reach out to all stakeholders</a>, from managers down to simple end users."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>christian.einfeldt writes " The Munich decision to move its 14,000 desktops to Free Open Source Software created a big splash back in 2003 as news circulated of the third-largest German city 's defection from Microsoft .
When it was announced in 2003 , the story garnered coverage even in the US , such as an extensive article in USA Today on-line .
Currently , about 60 \ % of desktops are using OpenOffice , with the remaining 40 \ % to be completed by the end of 2009 .
Firefox and Thunderbird are being used in all of the city 's desktop machines .
Ten percent of desktops are running the LiMux Debian-based distro , and 80 \ % will be running LiMux by 2012 at the latest .
Autonomy was generally considered more important than cost savings , although the LiMux initiative is increasing competition in the IT industry in Munich already .
The program has succeeded because the city administration has been careful to reach out to all stakeholders , from managers down to simple end users .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>christian.einfeldt writes "The Munich decision to move its 14,000 desktops to Free Open Source Software created a big splash back in 2003 as news circulated of the third-largest German city's defection from Microsoft.
When it was announced in 2003, the story garnered coverage even in the US, such as an extensive article in USA Today on-line.
Currently, about 60\% of desktops are using OpenOffice, with the remaining 40\% to be completed by the end of 2009.
Firefox and Thunderbird are being used in all of the city's desktop machines.
Ten percent of desktops are running the LiMux Debian-based distro, and 80\% will be running LiMux by 2012 at the latest.
Autonomy was generally considered more important than cost savings, although the LiMux initiative is increasing competition in the IT industry in Munich already.
The program has succeeded because the city administration has been careful to reach out to all stakeholders, from managers down to simple end users.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28503871</id>
	<title>Hey this is 2009 already - story is from 2003</title>
	<author>flyingfsck</author>
	<datestamp>1246204860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What is this, time travel?</htmltext>
<tokenext>What is this , time travel ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What is this, time travel?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502671</id>
	<title>Re:A success? Some people disagree...</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1246193280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> NT4 is normally used on servers (it's a bit expensive for the desktop</p></div><p>NT4 came in Server and Workstation versions (and some other big-server versions, I think).  The Workstation version was not much more expensive than Windows 95, especially with a corporate site-license and had a lot of features that make sense in a corporate environment (e.g. login that you can't bypass by pressing 'escape').  It was a bit expensive for home users (I ran it because I got a free copy and bought a computer which came with no OS), but a lot of students ran it because the student license OS bundle included both '95 and NT4 for around &#194;&pound;40.  NT4 was a bit more RAM-intensive than '95, but if you had 32MB it ran nicely (my desktop at the time was a P166 with 32MB of RAM).  If you wanted a corporate MS network before 2000 was released, and didn't want to pay a lot to Novell, you bought NT4 Server for the servers and NT4 Workstation for the desktops.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>NT4 is normally used on servers ( it 's a bit expensive for the desktopNT4 came in Server and Workstation versions ( and some other big-server versions , I think ) .
The Workstation version was not much more expensive than Windows 95 , especially with a corporate site-license and had a lot of features that make sense in a corporate environment ( e.g .
login that you ca n't bypass by pressing 'escape ' ) .
It was a bit expensive for home users ( I ran it because I got a free copy and bought a computer which came with no OS ) , but a lot of students ran it because the student license OS bundle included both '95 and NT4 for around     40 .
NT4 was a bit more RAM-intensive than '95 , but if you had 32MB it ran nicely ( my desktop at the time was a P166 with 32MB of RAM ) .
If you wanted a corporate MS network before 2000 was released , and did n't want to pay a lot to Novell , you bought NT4 Server for the servers and NT4 Workstation for the desktops .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> NT4 is normally used on servers (it's a bit expensive for the desktopNT4 came in Server and Workstation versions (and some other big-server versions, I think).
The Workstation version was not much more expensive than Windows 95, especially with a corporate site-license and had a lot of features that make sense in a corporate environment (e.g.
login that you can't bypass by pressing 'escape').
It was a bit expensive for home users (I ran it because I got a free copy and bought a computer which came with no OS), but a lot of students ran it because the student license OS bundle included both '95 and NT4 for around Â£40.
NT4 was a bit more RAM-intensive than '95, but if you had 32MB it ran nicely (my desktop at the time was a P166 with 32MB of RAM).
If you wanted a corporate MS network before 2000 was released, and didn't want to pay a lot to Novell, you bought NT4 Server for the servers and NT4 Workstation for the desktops.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502351</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28509081</id>
	<title>blogs of both sides of the story</title>
	<author>falconwolf</author>
	<datestamp>1246202880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The <a href="http://www.osor.eu/case\_studies/declaration-of-independence-the-limux-project-in-munich#section-12/" title="www.osor.eu"> Declaration of Independence: The LiMux Project in Munich</a> [www.osor.eu] has more info on the failure.  For instance one reason the migration has been delayed is because of concern about software patents, the city wanted to do a study because of legal insecurities.</p><p>

Falcon</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The Declaration of Independence : The LiMux Project in Munich [ www.osor.eu ] has more info on the failure .
For instance one reason the migration has been delayed is because of concern about software patents , the city wanted to do a study because of legal insecurities .
Falcon</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The  Declaration of Independence: The LiMux Project in Munich [www.osor.eu] has more info on the failure.
For instance one reason the migration has been delayed is because of concern about software patents, the city wanted to do a study because of legal insecurities.
Falcon</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28509423</id>
	<title>Re:It's failure</title>
	<author>falconwolf</author>
	<datestamp>1246206720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>10\% of desktops running Linux 6 years after the migration started?? It's an utter failure.</i></p><p>First it's not been 6 years, it hasn't been more than 4 years.  Yes, the migration was supposed to start in 2003, however it was put on hold.  In <a href="http://www.osor.eu/case\_studies/declaration-of-independence-the-limux-project-in-munich#section-12/" title="www.osor.eu">2004</a> [www.osor.eu] they decided a study was needed "to clear up legal insecurities related to software patents. The actual migration has been running since 2005."</p><p>Secondly they never meant to switch over to Linux all at once.  Instead they planned to switch people to FOOS applications first.  Meaning switching from IE to Firefox, MS Office to OpenOffice, Outlook to Thunderbird.  Once people could use those then the OS would be switched to Linux.  And for those apps that are needed but can't be replaced by a FOOS app, then run it in WINE.</p><p>While only 10\% of the desktops have been migrated to Linux 60\% of users use OpenOffice.org instead of MS Office.</p><p>

Falcon</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>10 \ % of desktops running Linux 6 years after the migration started ? ?
It 's an utter failure.First it 's not been 6 years , it has n't been more than 4 years .
Yes , the migration was supposed to start in 2003 , however it was put on hold .
In 2004 [ www.osor.eu ] they decided a study was needed " to clear up legal insecurities related to software patents .
The actual migration has been running since 2005 .
" Secondly they never meant to switch over to Linux all at once .
Instead they planned to switch people to FOOS applications first .
Meaning switching from IE to Firefox , MS Office to OpenOffice , Outlook to Thunderbird .
Once people could use those then the OS would be switched to Linux .
And for those apps that are needed but ca n't be replaced by a FOOS app , then run it in WINE.While only 10 \ % of the desktops have been migrated to Linux 60 \ % of users use OpenOffice.org instead of MS Office .
Falcon</tokentext>
<sentencetext>10\% of desktops running Linux 6 years after the migration started??
It's an utter failure.First it's not been 6 years, it hasn't been more than 4 years.
Yes, the migration was supposed to start in 2003, however it was put on hold.
In 2004 [www.osor.eu] they decided a study was needed "to clear up legal insecurities related to software patents.
The actual migration has been running since 2005.
"Secondly they never meant to switch over to Linux all at once.
Instead they planned to switch people to FOOS applications first.
Meaning switching from IE to Firefox, MS Office to OpenOffice, Outlook to Thunderbird.
Once people could use those then the OS would be switched to Linux.
And for those apps that are needed but can't be replaced by a FOOS app, then run it in WINE.While only 10\% of the desktops have been migrated to Linux 60\% of users use OpenOffice.org instead of MS Office.
Falcon</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28506137</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502769</id>
	<title>Did you read both?</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1246194420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Then you could not have missed this one:</p><p><a href="http://www.floschi.info/2009/02/great-news-limux-got-its-own-anti-lobbyist/" title="floschi.info">http://www.floschi.info/2009/02/great-news-limux-got-its-own-anti-lobbyist/</a> [floschi.info]</p><p>The most interesting quote:</p><p>"It&#226;(TM)s not only a dump troll reservoir, the site owner really tries to deal with facts - of course facts interpreted by him in a very strange manner. He is repeating the same lies again and again, trying to hide them behind real quotes&#226;&#166; his thoughs have no basis in facts, but who will know this?</p><p>Who is interested in doing this job? I don&#226;(TM)t know. I&#226;(TM)ll ask<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-) "</p><p>That is hardly the voice of somebody leading a failed project.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Then you could not have missed this one : http : //www.floschi.info/2009/02/great-news-limux-got-its-own-anti-lobbyist/ [ floschi.info ] The most interesting quote : " It   ( TM ) s not only a dump troll reservoir , the site owner really tries to deal with facts - of course facts interpreted by him in a very strange manner .
He is repeating the same lies again and again , trying to hide them behind real quotes     his thoughs have no basis in facts , but who will know this ? Who is interested in doing this job ?
I don   ( TM ) t know .
I   ( TM ) ll ask ; - ) " That is hardly the voice of somebody leading a failed project .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then you could not have missed this one:http://www.floschi.info/2009/02/great-news-limux-got-its-own-anti-lobbyist/ [floschi.info]The most interesting quote:"Itâ(TM)s not only a dump troll reservoir, the site owner really tries to deal with facts - of course facts interpreted by him in a very strange manner.
He is repeating the same lies again and again, trying to hide them behind real quotesâ¦ his thoughs have no basis in facts, but who will know this?Who is interested in doing this job?
I donâ(TM)t know.
Iâ(TM)ll ask ;-) "That is hardly the voice of somebody leading a failed project.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28504949</id>
	<title>Re:Linux at home for the city employees?</title>
	<author>canuck57</author>
	<datestamp>1246212120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Or how many already use Linux at home.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Or how many already use Linux at home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or how many already use Linux at home.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502211</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28506137</id>
	<title>It's failure</title>
	<author>RWerp</author>
	<datestamp>1246219860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>10\% of desktops running Linux 6 years after the migration started?? It's an utter failure.</htmltext>
<tokenext>10 \ % of desktops running Linux 6 years after the migration started ? ?
It 's an utter failure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>10\% of desktops running Linux 6 years after the migration started??
It's an utter failure.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28504053</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246206240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>HA HA HA!</p><p>

Algerian here.  You pompous ass.  Centuries old.  Your little pissant "culture" is barely an eyeblink.  My people were building great monuments when your ignorant white fore-fathers were roleplaying the Flinstones.  Your people are a bad joke and long after your bones are ground to dust, we'll still be here.</p><p>

White people make me sick.  I pray for the day you are bred out.  Do me and the rest of the world a favor and drive off of a cliff, maggot.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>HA HA HA !
Algerian here .
You pompous ass .
Centuries old .
Your little pissant " culture " is barely an eyeblink .
My people were building great monuments when your ignorant white fore-fathers were roleplaying the Flinstones .
Your people are a bad joke and long after your bones are ground to dust , we 'll still be here .
White people make me sick .
I pray for the day you are bred out .
Do me and the rest of the world a favor and drive off of a cliff , maggot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>HA HA HA!
Algerian here.
You pompous ass.
Centuries old.
Your little pissant "culture" is barely an eyeblink.
My people were building great monuments when your ignorant white fore-fathers were roleplaying the Flinstones.
Your people are a bad joke and long after your bones are ground to dust, we'll still be here.
White people make me sick.
I pray for the day you are bred out.
Do me and the rest of the world a favor and drive off of a cliff, maggot.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502575</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28514177</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246291080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Munich has decided it will rather spend for software development than pay licensing costs. It's like owning an apartment instead of paying rent. Makes helluva lot of sense to me. Toasts to Munich! Viel Glueck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Munich has decided it will rather spend for software development than pay licensing costs .
It 's like owning an apartment instead of paying rent .
Makes helluva lot of sense to me .
Toasts to Munich !
Viel Glueck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Munich has decided it will rather spend for software development than pay licensing costs.
It's like owning an apartment instead of paying rent.
Makes helluva lot of sense to me.
Toasts to Munich!
Viel Glueck!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502185</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246186200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Typical Slashdot moderators. Unable to face the fact that not everything is perfect in their own little world.</p><p>I provided two useful blogs that gave facts and opinions from both sides of the migration, plus my own opinion... and I get modded "Flamebait". If this isn't a perfect example of how your opinion WILL be punished if it's not totally for the FOSS line of thought, then I don't know what is.</p><p>I love open-source when it's applicable, but I'm not going change my opinion if I think it's fallen short. Got to laugh at those who can't stand dissent. But thank you to anyone who can post with some maturity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Typical Slashdot moderators .
Unable to face the fact that not everything is perfect in their own little world.I provided two useful blogs that gave facts and opinions from both sides of the migration , plus my own opinion... and I get modded " Flamebait " .
If this is n't a perfect example of how your opinion WILL be punished if it 's not totally for the FOSS line of thought , then I do n't know what is.I love open-source when it 's applicable , but I 'm not going change my opinion if I think it 's fallen short .
Got to laugh at those who ca n't stand dissent .
But thank you to anyone who can post with some maturity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Typical Slashdot moderators.
Unable to face the fact that not everything is perfect in their own little world.I provided two useful blogs that gave facts and opinions from both sides of the migration, plus my own opinion... and I get modded "Flamebait".
If this isn't a perfect example of how your opinion WILL be punished if it's not totally for the FOSS line of thought, then I don't know what is.I love open-source when it's applicable, but I'm not going change my opinion if I think it's fallen short.
Got to laugh at those who can't stand dissent.
But thank you to anyone who can post with some maturity.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502175</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>cryptolemur</author>
	<datestamp>1246186020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Looks like government job to me:</p><ul>
<li>3 years to plan</li><li>1 year to prepare and get selected OS certified</li><li>2 years for training, piloting, feedback and revising</li><li>1 year for final migration</li></ul></htmltext>
<tokenext>Looks like government job to me : 3 years to plan1 year to prepare and get selected OS certified2 years for training , piloting , feedback and revising1 year for final migration</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Looks like government job to me:
3 years to plan1 year to prepare and get selected OS certified2 years for training, piloting, feedback and revising1 year for final migration</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28510427</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>jawahar</author>
	<datestamp>1246215900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Microsoft and Linux, isn't it <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples\_and\_oranges" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Apples and Oranges</a> [wikipedia.org]?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Microsoft and Linux , is n't it Apples and Oranges [ wikipedia.org ] ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Microsoft and Linux, isn't it Apples and Oranges [wikipedia.org]?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502605</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246192380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It's 2009 and only 10\% migration?</p></div><p>The migration started in 2005 and it is a two step migration:</p><p>1) migrate to openoffice, thunderbird and firefox (almost done)<br>2) migrate to linux (just started, 10\%)</p><p>they are gradually migrating to linux, applications first, then the OS.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's 2009 and only 10 \ % migration ? The migration started in 2005 and it is a two step migration : 1 ) migrate to openoffice , thunderbird and firefox ( almost done ) 2 ) migrate to linux ( just started , 10 \ % ) they are gradually migrating to linux , applications first , then the OS .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's 2009 and only 10\% migration?The migration started in 2005 and it is a two step migration:1) migrate to openoffice, thunderbird and firefox (almost done)2) migrate to linux (just started, 10\%)they are gradually migrating to linux, applications first, then the OS.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502389</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>jeremyp</author>
	<datestamp>1246189560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bearing in mind that the have migrated only 10\% of desktops in 6 years, would you like to hazard a guess at how long this long run is?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bearing in mind that the have migrated only 10 \ % of desktops in 6 years , would you like to hazard a guess at how long this long run is ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bearing in mind that the have migrated only 10\% of desktops in 6 years, would you like to hazard a guess at how long this long run is?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502171</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502351</id>
	<title>Re:A success? Some people disagree...</title>
	<author>donaldm</author>
	<datestamp>1246188900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>It normally takes about 20 minutes to install a customised version of Linux for a known desktop. You can even connect to a build server so you don't have to lug around distribution CD's or DVD's. I will concede that making a customised Linux distribution can take a few days (as will a MS Windows custom installation)  but rolling that out is simple and quick. Total cost for the non commercial Linux distribution plus Office and ancillary software is effectively zero dollars. Total cost of Microsoft OS plus Office and Microsoft extras is what  massive discount Microsoft is willing to give you just so a Linux distribution is not used.<br>
<br>
From the blog:<p><div class="quote"><p>According to vice director Schie&#195;Yl, an upgrade of the then-existing Windows NT4 operating system to Windows XP would have been as much as two million euros cheaper.</p></div><p>Hmm I wonder how they arrived at that figure? If the blog said Windows 2000 to Windows XP then I might concede however NT4 is normally used on servers (it's a bit expensive for the desktop) I would have expected NT4 to Windows 2003. Are we talking servers here or the desktop and why XP did not Microsoft want firms to upgrade to Vista? Even if the figure they gave is true well that is Government for you and for a city like Munich then 2 million Euros is not that much for a one time cost..<br>
<br>
The biggest obstacle to installing a Linux Distribution on the desktop is actually middle management not the rank and file worker. If your business has locked themselves into Microsoft solutions then shifting to Linux solutions is going to be hard be it server or desktop and in many ways expensive because there are many proprietary Microsoft solutions that make integration with other operating systems difficult. It must be noted that this is not the fault of other operating systems but of Microsoft, after-all it is not as if Linux solutions hide their API's and source code.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It normally takes about 20 minutes to install a customised version of Linux for a known desktop .
You can even connect to a build server so you do n't have to lug around distribution CD 's or DVD 's .
I will concede that making a customised Linux distribution can take a few days ( as will a MS Windows custom installation ) but rolling that out is simple and quick .
Total cost for the non commercial Linux distribution plus Office and ancillary software is effectively zero dollars .
Total cost of Microsoft OS plus Office and Microsoft extras is what massive discount Microsoft is willing to give you just so a Linux distribution is not used .
From the blog : According to vice director Schie   Yl , an upgrade of the then-existing Windows NT4 operating system to Windows XP would have been as much as two million euros cheaper.Hmm I wonder how they arrived at that figure ?
If the blog said Windows 2000 to Windows XP then I might concede however NT4 is normally used on servers ( it 's a bit expensive for the desktop ) I would have expected NT4 to Windows 2003 .
Are we talking servers here or the desktop and why XP did not Microsoft want firms to upgrade to Vista ?
Even if the figure they gave is true well that is Government for you and for a city like Munich then 2 million Euros is not that much for a one time cost. . The biggest obstacle to installing a Linux Distribution on the desktop is actually middle management not the rank and file worker .
If your business has locked themselves into Microsoft solutions then shifting to Linux solutions is going to be hard be it server or desktop and in many ways expensive because there are many proprietary Microsoft solutions that make integration with other operating systems difficult .
It must be noted that this is not the fault of other operating systems but of Microsoft , after-all it is not as if Linux solutions hide their API 's and source code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It normally takes about 20 minutes to install a customised version of Linux for a known desktop.
You can even connect to a build server so you don't have to lug around distribution CD's or DVD's.
I will concede that making a customised Linux distribution can take a few days (as will a MS Windows custom installation)  but rolling that out is simple and quick.
Total cost for the non commercial Linux distribution plus Office and ancillary software is effectively zero dollars.
Total cost of Microsoft OS plus Office and Microsoft extras is what  massive discount Microsoft is willing to give you just so a Linux distribution is not used.
From the blog:According to vice director SchieÃYl, an upgrade of the then-existing Windows NT4 operating system to Windows XP would have been as much as two million euros cheaper.Hmm I wonder how they arrived at that figure?
If the blog said Windows 2000 to Windows XP then I might concede however NT4 is normally used on servers (it's a bit expensive for the desktop) I would have expected NT4 to Windows 2003.
Are we talking servers here or the desktop and why XP did not Microsoft want firms to upgrade to Vista?
Even if the figure they gave is true well that is Government for you and for a city like Munich then 2 million Euros is not that much for a one time cost..

The biggest obstacle to installing a Linux Distribution on the desktop is actually middle management not the rank and file worker.
If your business has locked themselves into Microsoft solutions then shifting to Linux solutions is going to be hard be it server or desktop and in many ways expensive because there are many proprietary Microsoft solutions that make integration with other operating systems difficult.
It must be noted that this is not the fault of other operating systems but of Microsoft, after-all it is not as if Linux solutions hide their API's and source code.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502015</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502973</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>dbcad7</author>
	<datestamp>1246196760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Well, the execution of their plan in a timely manner is definitely a failure.. the blogs from both sides are also failures in providing any reasons... Mr Limuxwatch hides any information about himself or his motives.. I mean, is he upset because it hasn't progressed to his satisfaction ?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. Is he upset because he doesn't want it done at all ?.. exactly what is his stake in all this ?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , the execution of their plan in a timely manner is definitely a failure.. the blogs from both sides are also failures in providing any reasons... Mr Limuxwatch hides any information about himself or his motives.. I mean , is he upset because it has n't progressed to his satisfaction ?
.. Is he upset because he does n't want it done at all ? . .
exactly what is his stake in all this ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Well, the execution of their plan in a timely manner is definitely a failure.. the blogs from both sides are also failures in providing any reasons... Mr Limuxwatch hides any information about himself or his motives.. I mean, is he upset because it hasn't progressed to his satisfaction ?
.. Is he upset because he doesn't want it done at all ?..
exactly what is his stake in all this ?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28508467</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>jbolden</author>
	<datestamp>1246196760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>limuxwatch is grossly oversimplifying.  The importance of Munich is it is revealing what are the remaining issues for migrated Windows shops over.  They are furthest along of any windows shop.    It isn't really about success or failure, it is about learning.  And for Munich it is about independence, they want a high end IT organization.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>limuxwatch is grossly oversimplifying .
The importance of Munich is it is revealing what are the remaining issues for migrated Windows shops over .
They are furthest along of any windows shop .
It is n't really about success or failure , it is about learning .
And for Munich it is about independence , they want a high end IT organization .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>limuxwatch is grossly oversimplifying.
The importance of Munich is it is revealing what are the remaining issues for migrated Windows shops over.
They are furthest along of any windows shop.
It isn't really about success or failure, it is about learning.
And for Munich it is about independence, they want a high end IT organization.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28507361</id>
	<title>Re:It's failure</title>
	<author>prefec2</author>
	<datestamp>1246186920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They changed their processes. And while they did that, they migrated to OSS applications. And as a last step they change the operating system. And do not forget. They are Germans, they have a plan. And they will follow it to the bitter end.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They changed their processes .
And while they did that , they migrated to OSS applications .
And as a last step they change the operating system .
And do not forget .
They are Germans , they have a plan .
And they will follow it to the bitter end .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They changed their processes.
And while they did that, they migrated to OSS applications.
And as a last step they change the operating system.
And do not forget.
They are Germans, they have a plan.
And they will follow it to the bitter end.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28506137</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28503761</id>
	<title>How to getalong with the Germans ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246204080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>German society and culture is different from the English speaking world. They only accept perfection, anything less is off the radar. They also indulge in Grundlichkeit (excessive thoroughness) which means that everything must be done all out, Unter Voll Dampf (under full steam) and if it costs time or money to do it, they'll take a first class ticket everytime. Not only that but in engineering they test everything to absolute destruction, build it completely new, break it again and then build it completely new and continue this process with the dedication of a Zen master. You just need to take a walk up any mountain in Germany to observe this in action. No one is wearing Jeans and a T-shirt and everyone is toting the sort of equipment required on expedition to summit K2. They even have similar equipment for their dogs. <br> <br>So ten per cent success rate considering the incredibly short work week state employees enjoy is not just going well, it's an unprecedent level of efficiency.</htmltext>
<tokenext>German society and culture is different from the English speaking world .
They only accept perfection , anything less is off the radar .
They also indulge in Grundlichkeit ( excessive thoroughness ) which means that everything must be done all out , Unter Voll Dampf ( under full steam ) and if it costs time or money to do it , they 'll take a first class ticket everytime .
Not only that but in engineering they test everything to absolute destruction , build it completely new , break it again and then build it completely new and continue this process with the dedication of a Zen master .
You just need to take a walk up any mountain in Germany to observe this in action .
No one is wearing Jeans and a T-shirt and everyone is toting the sort of equipment required on expedition to summit K2 .
They even have similar equipment for their dogs .
So ten per cent success rate considering the incredibly short work week state employees enjoy is not just going well , it 's an unprecedent level of efficiency .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>German society and culture is different from the English speaking world.
They only accept perfection, anything less is off the radar.
They also indulge in Grundlichkeit (excessive thoroughness) which means that everything must be done all out, Unter Voll Dampf (under full steam) and if it costs time or money to do it, they'll take a first class ticket everytime.
Not only that but in engineering they test everything to absolute destruction, build it completely new, break it again and then build it completely new and continue this process with the dedication of a Zen master.
You just need to take a walk up any mountain in Germany to observe this in action.
No one is wearing Jeans and a T-shirt and everyone is toting the sort of equipment required on expedition to summit K2.
They even have similar equipment for their dogs.
So ten per cent success rate considering the incredibly short work week state employees enjoy is not just going well, it's an unprecedent level of efficiency.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502109</id>
	<title>Interesting</title>
	<author>yanguang</author>
	<datestamp>1246184760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Reminds me of the Cuba's Linux Nova.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Reminds me of the Cuba 's Linux Nova .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Reminds me of the Cuba's Linux Nova.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28503775</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246204140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Looks like you don't know what you are talking about.</p><p>Your timeline is wrong.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Looks like you do n't know what you are talking about.Your timeline is wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Looks like you don't know what you are talking about.Your timeline is wrong.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502175</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502883</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>blackest\_k</author>
	<datestamp>1246195920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>hmm Linuxwatch</p><p>Funny choice of name that reminds me of migrationwatch.org which claims to be "MigrationwatchUK is an independent and non-political body established in October 2001. Our purposes are to; monitor migration flows to and from the UK,"</p><p>In reality its a right Wing organization pushing its nasty agenda where ever it can.</p><p>interestingly you can read here how its irish version got shut down.</p><p><a href="http://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/Migration-Watch-website-shuts-down.4872135.jp" title="leinsterleader.ie">http://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/Migration-Watch-website-shuts-down.4872135.jp</a> [leinsterleader.ie]</p><p>this upset a few people</p><p><a href="http://irish-nationalism.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10249" title="irish-nationalism.net">http://irish-nationalism.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10249</a> [irish-nationalism.net]</p><p>At least they are honest enough not to pretend to be impartial.</p><p>There's a few of these "watch" type organisations wikipedia-watch.org is another example.</p><p>seems that like in the case of  x-sucks sites, the purpose is stick the boot in where ever possible.</p><p>I wouldn't expect a sucks site to be unbiased but at least they are not pretending to be impartial.</p><p>Now perhaps linuxwatch wasn't intended to be anything other than an impartial site but if it was it was a poor choice of name given the connotations such watch sites already have.</p><p>I've never seen a "watch" site which wasn't hypercritical of whatever it watches.</p><p>Linuxwatch critical of Linux - say it isn't so</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>hmm LinuxwatchFunny choice of name that reminds me of migrationwatch.org which claims to be " MigrationwatchUK is an independent and non-political body established in October 2001 .
Our purposes are to ; monitor migration flows to and from the UK , " In reality its a right Wing organization pushing its nasty agenda where ever it can.interestingly you can read here how its irish version got shut down.http : //www.leinsterleader.ie/news/Migration-Watch-website-shuts-down.4872135.jp [ leinsterleader.ie ] this upset a few peoplehttp : //irish-nationalism.net/forum/showthread.php ? t = 10249 [ irish-nationalism.net ] At least they are honest enough not to pretend to be impartial.There 's a few of these " watch " type organisations wikipedia-watch.org is another example.seems that like in the case of x-sucks sites , the purpose is stick the boot in where ever possible.I would n't expect a sucks site to be unbiased but at least they are not pretending to be impartial.Now perhaps linuxwatch was n't intended to be anything other than an impartial site but if it was it was a poor choice of name given the connotations such watch sites already have.I 've never seen a " watch " site which was n't hypercritical of whatever it watches.Linuxwatch critical of Linux - say it is n't so</tokentext>
<sentencetext>hmm LinuxwatchFunny choice of name that reminds me of migrationwatch.org which claims to be "MigrationwatchUK is an independent and non-political body established in October 2001.
Our purposes are to; monitor migration flows to and from the UK,"In reality its a right Wing organization pushing its nasty agenda where ever it can.interestingly you can read here how its irish version got shut down.http://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/Migration-Watch-website-shuts-down.4872135.jp [leinsterleader.ie]this upset a few peoplehttp://irish-nationalism.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10249 [irish-nationalism.net]At least they are honest enough not to pretend to be impartial.There's a few of these "watch" type organisations wikipedia-watch.org is another example.seems that like in the case of  x-sucks sites, the purpose is stick the boot in where ever possible.I wouldn't expect a sucks site to be unbiased but at least they are not pretending to be impartial.Now perhaps linuxwatch wasn't intended to be anything other than an impartial site but if it was it was a poor choice of name given the connotations such watch sites already have.I've never seen a "watch" site which wasn't hypercritical of whatever it watches.Linuxwatch critical of Linux - say it isn't so</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502359</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</id>
	<title>Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>GF678</author>
	<datestamp>1246184100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here's the blog from Floria Schiessl, project leader of the LiMux distro and the Munich migration: <a href="http://www.floschi.info/" title="floschi.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.floschi.info/</a> [floschi.info]</p><p>Here's a blog from someone who believes the Munich migration was a failure: <a href="http://limuxwatch.blogspot.com/" title="blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://limuxwatch.blogspot.com/</a> [blogspot.com]</p><p>From reading both, I tend to gravitate towards the failure side. It's 2009 and only 10\% migration? Wasn't this suppose to save money? It's a frigging embarrassment! How are you suppose to point to Munich as an example of free and open-source software working on a city scale when they can't even implement it in a reasonable time-frame?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's the blog from Floria Schiessl , project leader of the LiMux distro and the Munich migration : http : //www.floschi.info/ [ floschi.info ] Here 's a blog from someone who believes the Munich migration was a failure : http : //limuxwatch.blogspot.com/ [ blogspot.com ] From reading both , I tend to gravitate towards the failure side .
It 's 2009 and only 10 \ % migration ?
Was n't this suppose to save money ?
It 's a frigging embarrassment !
How are you suppose to point to Munich as an example of free and open-source software working on a city scale when they ca n't even implement it in a reasonable time-frame ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's the blog from Floria Schiessl, project leader of the LiMux distro and the Munich migration: http://www.floschi.info/ [floschi.info]Here's a blog from someone who believes the Munich migration was a failure: http://limuxwatch.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]From reading both, I tend to gravitate towards the failure side.
It's 2009 and only 10\% migration?
Wasn't this suppose to save money?
It's a frigging embarrassment!
How are you suppose to point to Munich as an example of free and open-source software working on a city scale when they can't even implement it in a reasonable time-frame?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28506693</id>
	<title>Why Munich is important</title>
	<author>jbolden</author>
	<datestamp>1246181040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At the start of the early 2000s there was essentially a controlled experiment about implementing Linux on the desktop.</p><p>In the first category we had companies like AutoZone, Burlington Coat Factory and Pep Boys that never had developed a Windows culture to begin with.  These were Unix shops (generally SCO or Solaris) and they transitioned quickly (within a year or 2) and easily (say under 100 man years) to Linux.</p><p>In the second category we had technology knowledgeable companies that wanted to transition to all Unix/Linux, and considered it important but not critical.  IBM, Oracle, Sun (Sun Java desktop) being leading examples.  They failed, believing it was not worth the distraction even though this failure was quite embarrassing.   In many people's estimation they gave up much too quickly.</p><p>In the third category we had places that wanted to transition to Linux for ideological reasons.  Most of them found the processes daunting and gave up.  Munich is a great example of the 3rd category.   They have some technical depth but not a technical user base.  They have financial resources but are somewhat cost constrained.  And they had  a Windows culture.  That is Munich is sort of a good case study for most companies that are not IT focused.    When Munich is successful they will provide a wonderful example that it is possible and how to do it.    Right now they provide a caution of the complexities.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At the start of the early 2000s there was essentially a controlled experiment about implementing Linux on the desktop.In the first category we had companies like AutoZone , Burlington Coat Factory and Pep Boys that never had developed a Windows culture to begin with .
These were Unix shops ( generally SCO or Solaris ) and they transitioned quickly ( within a year or 2 ) and easily ( say under 100 man years ) to Linux.In the second category we had technology knowledgeable companies that wanted to transition to all Unix/Linux , and considered it important but not critical .
IBM , Oracle , Sun ( Sun Java desktop ) being leading examples .
They failed , believing it was not worth the distraction even though this failure was quite embarrassing .
In many people 's estimation they gave up much too quickly.In the third category we had places that wanted to transition to Linux for ideological reasons .
Most of them found the processes daunting and gave up .
Munich is a great example of the 3rd category .
They have some technical depth but not a technical user base .
They have financial resources but are somewhat cost constrained .
And they had a Windows culture .
That is Munich is sort of a good case study for most companies that are not IT focused .
When Munich is successful they will provide a wonderful example that it is possible and how to do it .
Right now they provide a caution of the complexities .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At the start of the early 2000s there was essentially a controlled experiment about implementing Linux on the desktop.In the first category we had companies like AutoZone, Burlington Coat Factory and Pep Boys that never had developed a Windows culture to begin with.
These were Unix shops (generally SCO or Solaris) and they transitioned quickly (within a year or 2) and easily (say under 100 man years) to Linux.In the second category we had technology knowledgeable companies that wanted to transition to all Unix/Linux, and considered it important but not critical.
IBM, Oracle, Sun (Sun Java desktop) being leading examples.
They failed, believing it was not worth the distraction even though this failure was quite embarrassing.
In many people's estimation they gave up much too quickly.In the third category we had places that wanted to transition to Linux for ideological reasons.
Most of them found the processes daunting and gave up.
Munich is a great example of the 3rd category.
They have some technical depth but not a technical user base.
They have financial resources but are somewhat cost constrained.
And they had  a Windows culture.
That is Munich is sort of a good case study for most companies that are not IT focused.
When Munich is successful they will provide a wonderful example that it is possible and how to do it.
Right now they provide a caution of the complexities.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502679</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246193400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Bad thing" was not my intention.</p><p>Perhaps I should have added that to me it looks like they're doing the right way. I sorta figured that claiming it as 'mere' "government job" and then providing their good plan would be enough for people with a sense of irony. In any case it didn't see that anti-libertarian knee jerk aggression coming -- I really don't think libertarianism is worth any attention at all. It's a prime example of dead-on-arrival ideology.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Bad thing " was not my intention.Perhaps I should have added that to me it looks like they 're doing the right way .
I sorta figured that claiming it as 'mere ' " government job " and then providing their good plan would be enough for people with a sense of irony .
In any case it did n't see that anti-libertarian knee jerk aggression coming -- I really do n't think libertarianism is worth any attention at all .
It 's a prime example of dead-on-arrival ideology .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Bad thing" was not my intention.Perhaps I should have added that to me it looks like they're doing the right way.
I sorta figured that claiming it as 'mere' "government job" and then providing their good plan would be enough for people with a sense of irony.
In any case it didn't see that anti-libertarian knee jerk aggression coming -- I really don't think libertarianism is worth any attention at all.
It's a prime example of dead-on-arrival ideology.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502429</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28503307</id>
	<title>Moving target?</title>
	<author>gravyface</author>
	<datestamp>1246200180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Making an assumption here, but perhaps Open Office's release of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenOffice.org#History" title="wikipedia.org">two major versions</a> [wikipedia.org] during the project's lifecycle may have something to do with the delay.</p><p>If I was running this show, I'd have uber-time blocked off for compatibility testing to make sure key stakeholders (see, "important people with important spreadsheets") were happy, even if that meant delaying roll-out for the next major OOo release.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Making an assumption here , but perhaps Open Office 's release of two major versions [ wikipedia.org ] during the project 's lifecycle may have something to do with the delay.If I was running this show , I 'd have uber-time blocked off for compatibility testing to make sure key stakeholders ( see , " important people with important spreadsheets " ) were happy , even if that meant delaying roll-out for the next major OOo release .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Making an assumption here, but perhaps Open Office's release of two major versions [wikipedia.org] during the project's lifecycle may have something to do with the delay.If I was running this show, I'd have uber-time blocked off for compatibility testing to make sure key stakeholders (see, "important people with important spreadsheets") were happy, even if that meant delaying roll-out for the next major OOo release.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28584855</id>
	<title>Re:Why Munich is important</title>
	<author>dave87656</author>
	<datestamp>1246736880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In the second category we had technology knowledgeable companies that wanted to transition to all Unix/Linux, and considered it important but not critical. IBM, Oracle, Sun (Sun Java desktop) being leading examples.</p></div><p>Huh? I was at Sun in Munich a couple of years ago and they were running most of their workstations and PC's on something other than Windows (Linux or Solaris). They also had 300 or so thin clients running off a couple of Sun servers.</p><p>You certainly didn't see alot of Windows there.</p><p>What are you basing you statement on?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In the second category we had technology knowledgeable companies that wanted to transition to all Unix/Linux , and considered it important but not critical .
IBM , Oracle , Sun ( Sun Java desktop ) being leading examples.Huh ?
I was at Sun in Munich a couple of years ago and they were running most of their workstations and PC 's on something other than Windows ( Linux or Solaris ) .
They also had 300 or so thin clients running off a couple of Sun servers.You certainly did n't see alot of Windows there.What are you basing you statement on ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the second category we had technology knowledgeable companies that wanted to transition to all Unix/Linux, and considered it important but not critical.
IBM, Oracle, Sun (Sun Java desktop) being leading examples.Huh?
I was at Sun in Munich a couple of years ago and they were running most of their workstations and PC's on something other than Windows (Linux or Solaris).
They also had 300 or so thin clients running off a couple of Sun servers.You certainly didn't see alot of Windows there.What are you basing you statement on?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28506693</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28508311</id>
	<title>Re:Needs Logo</title>
	<author>Samah</author>
	<datestamp>1246195500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The project will not be complete until they have a logo with Tux the Linux Penguin lofting a good German beer.</p></div><p>Coming up soon, Tuxzenfest!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The project will not be complete until they have a logo with Tux the Linux Penguin lofting a good German beer.Coming up soon , Tuxzenfest !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The project will not be complete until they have a logo with Tux the Linux Penguin lofting a good German beer.Coming up soon, Tuxzenfest!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502047</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28548333</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>MrResistor</author>
	<datestamp>1246438860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>of course MS will be cheaper at first because you don't have to cope with defeating the vendor lock-in if you stay with Windows</p></div><p>I'm not sure I buy that, or maybe I should say that I don't see how version lock-in is preferable. Every Windows version migration I've done or been involved with required at least one piece of hardware be replaced due to driver incompatibilities. I'm not blaming Microsoft, it's the hardware vendors that aren't updating their drivers. However, it's pretty much an inherent problem in the closed source model. Once something's supported in Linux, it tends to stay supported.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>of course MS will be cheaper at first because you do n't have to cope with defeating the vendor lock-in if you stay with WindowsI 'm not sure I buy that , or maybe I should say that I do n't see how version lock-in is preferable .
Every Windows version migration I 've done or been involved with required at least one piece of hardware be replaced due to driver incompatibilities .
I 'm not blaming Microsoft , it 's the hardware vendors that are n't updating their drivers .
However , it 's pretty much an inherent problem in the closed source model .
Once something 's supported in Linux , it tends to stay supported .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>of course MS will be cheaper at first because you don't have to cope with defeating the vendor lock-in if you stay with WindowsI'm not sure I buy that, or maybe I should say that I don't see how version lock-in is preferable.
Every Windows version migration I've done or been involved with required at least one piece of hardware be replaced due to driver incompatibilities.
I'm not blaming Microsoft, it's the hardware vendors that aren't updating their drivers.
However, it's pretty much an inherent problem in the closed source model.
Once something's supported in Linux, it tends to stay supported.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502171</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28506585</id>
	<title>Re:Needs Logo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246180020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>or here</p><p>http://www.linuxbierwanderung.org/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>or herehttp : //www.linuxbierwanderung.org/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>or herehttp://www.linuxbierwanderung.org/</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502047</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502751</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246194240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Having 10\% migrated to Linux does not main a 10\% saving on Microsoft licensing costs. That 10\% is a very strong point when negotiating with Microsoft, so the actual savings could be a high as 90\%. (Microsoft is know to give &gt;90\% discounts in situations like these, especially for governments.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Having 10 \ % migrated to Linux does not main a 10 \ % saving on Microsoft licensing costs .
That 10 \ % is a very strong point when negotiating with Microsoft , so the actual savings could be a high as 90 \ % .
( Microsoft is know to give &gt; 90 \ % discounts in situations like these , especially for governments .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having 10\% migrated to Linux does not main a 10\% saving on Microsoft licensing costs.
That 10\% is a very strong point when negotiating with Microsoft, so the actual savings could be a high as 90\%.
(Microsoft is know to give &gt;90\% discounts in situations like these, especially for governments.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28509295</id>
	<title>Re:Linux at home for the city employees?</title>
	<author>falconwolf</author>
	<datestamp>1246205640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I'm wondering if they have a percentage of the city employees who, after using Linux at work, have migrated over to Linux at home?</i></p><p>Now I'd think that would be a better indication of Linux's success or failure.</p><p>

Falcon</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm wondering if they have a percentage of the city employees who , after using Linux at work , have migrated over to Linux at home ? Now I 'd think that would be a better indication of Linux 's success or failure .
Falcon</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm wondering if they have a percentage of the city employees who, after using Linux at work, have migrated over to Linux at home?Now I'd think that would be a better indication of Linux's success or failure.
Falcon</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502211</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28504991</id>
	<title>Shouldn't they be done already?</title>
	<author>WheelDweller</author>
	<datestamp>1246212420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do the math; 14,000 machines, 2190 days (6 years, ballpark) is 6 machines a day. I can do the physical conversion with just one other person in that time.</p><p>I understand the virtual conversion- putting people on Firefox and OpenOffice...but with the teams surely available to any organization \_requiring\_ 14,000 machines, doesn't it seem like they'd be done by now?</p><p>Maybe I'm overlooking something?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do the math ; 14,000 machines , 2190 days ( 6 years , ballpark ) is 6 machines a day .
I can do the physical conversion with just one other person in that time.I understand the virtual conversion- putting people on Firefox and OpenOffice...but with the teams surely available to any organization \ _requiring \ _ 14,000 machines , does n't it seem like they 'd be done by now ? Maybe I 'm overlooking something ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do the math; 14,000 machines, 2190 days (6 years, ballpark) is 6 machines a day.
I can do the physical conversion with just one other person in that time.I understand the virtual conversion- putting people on Firefox and OpenOffice...but with the teams surely available to any organization \_requiring\_ 14,000 machines, doesn't it seem like they'd be done by now?Maybe I'm overlooking something?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502547</id>
	<title>Re:A success? Some people disagree...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246191600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here it is <a href="http://www.osor.eu/case\_studies/declaration-of-independence-the-limux-project-in-munich" title="www.osor.eu" rel="nofollow">the whole story</a> [www.osor.eu], maybe it might interest you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here it is the whole story [ www.osor.eu ] , maybe it might interest you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here it is the whole story [www.osor.eu], maybe it might interest you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502015</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28503095</id>
	<title>On the nature and timing of slip lists...</title>
	<author>jonaskoelker</author>
	<datestamp>1246198320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The sound byte that only 10\% of the workstations have been migrated in X years doesn't scale to mean that it will take 9 * X more years to complete to rest of them. I know you didn't state this, but the LimuxWatch blog implies this in many of their schedule slip lists.</p></div><p>Yeah, everyone knows things are expected to take O(X log X) time with a slip list.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The sound byte that only 10 \ % of the workstations have been migrated in X years does n't scale to mean that it will take 9 * X more years to complete to rest of them .
I know you did n't state this , but the LimuxWatch blog implies this in many of their schedule slip lists.Yeah , everyone knows things are expected to take O ( X log X ) time with a slip list .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The sound byte that only 10\% of the workstations have been migrated in X years doesn't scale to mean that it will take 9 * X more years to complete to rest of them.
I know you didn't state this, but the LimuxWatch blog implies this in many of their schedule slip lists.Yeah, everyone knows things are expected to take O(X log X) time with a slip list.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502359</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502619</id>
	<title>Which part of 60\% installed is vague?</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1246192680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And which dates are not clear to you?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And which dates are not clear to you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And which dates are not clear to you?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502015</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502047</id>
	<title>Needs Logo</title>
	<author>resistant</author>
	<datestamp>1246183620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>  The project will not be complete until they have a logo with Tux the Linux Penguin lofting a good German beer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The project will not be complete until they have a logo with Tux the Linux Penguin lofting a good German beer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>  The project will not be complete until they have a logo with Tux the Linux Penguin lofting a good German beer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502649</id>
	<title>Yeah, sure, like if private companies were better.</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1246193100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Several big failures of the UK's government's IT strategy has been due to the sheer incompetence of the *private* contractors.</p><p>Or what about train companies in the UK, or highway operators in Mexico. In both cases the original "investors" cashed in on their shares as soon as they could and left a mess behind that the government has had to paid.</p><p>I can also say that, having worked all my life in private industry, your comment, which seems to imply government=ineptitude could easily apply as well to major well known corporations.</p><p>It is ironic that now that governments are having to bail out banks (not for the first time mind you, in Mexico we got deeply into debt to avoid the collapse of the financial system during the 90s), car manufacturers and insurers there are still people out there equalling government with incompetence.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Several big failures of the UK 's government 's IT strategy has been due to the sheer incompetence of the * private * contractors.Or what about train companies in the UK , or highway operators in Mexico .
In both cases the original " investors " cashed in on their shares as soon as they could and left a mess behind that the government has had to paid.I can also say that , having worked all my life in private industry , your comment , which seems to imply government = ineptitude could easily apply as well to major well known corporations.It is ironic that now that governments are having to bail out banks ( not for the first time mind you , in Mexico we got deeply into debt to avoid the collapse of the financial system during the 90s ) , car manufacturers and insurers there are still people out there equalling government with incompetence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Several big failures of the UK's government's IT strategy has been due to the sheer incompetence of the *private* contractors.Or what about train companies in the UK, or highway operators in Mexico.
In both cases the original "investors" cashed in on their shares as soon as they could and left a mess behind that the government has had to paid.I can also say that, having worked all my life in private industry, your comment, which seems to imply government=ineptitude could easily apply as well to major well known corporations.It is ironic that now that governments are having to bail out banks (not for the first time mind you, in Mexico we got deeply into debt to avoid the collapse of the financial system during the 90s), car manufacturers and insurers there are still people out there equalling government with incompetence.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502175</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502359</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>ahodgkinson</author>
	<datestamp>1246189080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>To answer your reasonable question about unfairly squashing
dissent:
<p>
<em>
From reading both, I tend to gravitate towards the failure side.
It's 2009 and only 10\% migration? Wasn't this suppose to save money?
It's a frigging embarrassment! How are you suppose to point to Munich
as an example of free and open-source software working on a city scale
when they can't even implement it in a reasonable time-frame?
</em>
</p><p>
I think you got got labeled flamebait, not that I agree, because your
conclusions appear
unreasonable, namely that you are measuring the project on criteria
which do not match the project's own stated goals.
</p><p>
First of all: Munich was said that the their goal is not to save
money in the short-term, but to gain 'autonomy' from a single
supplier. The savings, if any, are to be realized in the long
term.
</p><p>
Second: Schedule and cost overruns are (unfortunately) normal for
projects this size and complexity. What is your idea of a reasonable
time scale anyways? With some searching I can probably identify
other similar sized projects which eventually succeeded, in spite of
serious schedule overruns.
BTW: The sound byte that only 10\% of the workstations
have been migrated in X years doesn't scale to mean that it will take
9 * X more years to complete to rest of them. I know you didn't
state this, but the LimuxWatch blog implies this in many of
their schedule slip lists.
</p><p>
Third: There is more at stake than producing Linux-based work
stations and a support infrastructure for Munich. This is a first
of it's type project, meaning a major public-sector open source
deployment on the desktop. If this succeeds, then the lessons
learned will form the basis for other similar projects.
In other words, don't be surprised if LimuxWatch blog has a
hidden agenda.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To answer your reasonable question about unfairly squashing dissent : From reading both , I tend to gravitate towards the failure side .
It 's 2009 and only 10 \ % migration ?
Was n't this suppose to save money ?
It 's a frigging embarrassment !
How are you suppose to point to Munich as an example of free and open-source software working on a city scale when they ca n't even implement it in a reasonable time-frame ?
I think you got got labeled flamebait , not that I agree , because your conclusions appear unreasonable , namely that you are measuring the project on criteria which do not match the project 's own stated goals .
First of all : Munich was said that the their goal is not to save money in the short-term , but to gain 'autonomy ' from a single supplier .
The savings , if any , are to be realized in the long term .
Second : Schedule and cost overruns are ( unfortunately ) normal for projects this size and complexity .
What is your idea of a reasonable time scale anyways ?
With some searching I can probably identify other similar sized projects which eventually succeeded , in spite of serious schedule overruns .
BTW : The sound byte that only 10 \ % of the workstations have been migrated in X years does n't scale to mean that it will take 9 * X more years to complete to rest of them .
I know you did n't state this , but the LimuxWatch blog implies this in many of their schedule slip lists .
Third : There is more at stake than producing Linux-based work stations and a support infrastructure for Munich .
This is a first of it 's type project , meaning a major public-sector open source deployment on the desktop .
If this succeeds , then the lessons learned will form the basis for other similar projects .
In other words , do n't be surprised if LimuxWatch blog has a hidden agenda .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To answer your reasonable question about unfairly squashing
dissent:


From reading both, I tend to gravitate towards the failure side.
It's 2009 and only 10\% migration?
Wasn't this suppose to save money?
It's a frigging embarrassment!
How are you suppose to point to Munich
as an example of free and open-source software working on a city scale
when they can't even implement it in a reasonable time-frame?
I think you got got labeled flamebait, not that I agree, because your
conclusions appear
unreasonable, namely that you are measuring the project on criteria
which do not match the project's own stated goals.
First of all: Munich was said that the their goal is not to save
money in the short-term, but to gain 'autonomy' from a single
supplier.
The savings, if any, are to be realized in the long
term.
Second: Schedule and cost overruns are (unfortunately) normal for
projects this size and complexity.
What is your idea of a reasonable
time scale anyways?
With some searching I can probably identify
other similar sized projects which eventually succeeded, in spite of
serious schedule overruns.
BTW: The sound byte that only 10\% of the workstations
have been migrated in X years doesn't scale to mean that it will take
9 * X more years to complete to rest of them.
I know you didn't
state this, but the LimuxWatch blog implies this in many of
their schedule slip lists.
Third: There is more at stake than producing Linux-based work
stations and a support infrastructure for Munich.
This is a first
of it's type project, meaning a major public-sector open source
deployment on the desktop.
If this succeeds, then the lessons
learned will form the basis for other similar projects.
In other words, don't be surprised if LimuxWatch blog has a
hidden agenda.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502185</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502381</id>
	<title>Re:A success? Some people disagree...</title>
	<author>mpe</author>
	<datestamp>1246189500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>This blog chronicles the failure of this project: <a href="http://limuxwatch.blogspot.com/" title="blogspot.com">http://limuxwatch.blogspot.com/</a> [blogspot.com] </i> <br> <br>Wonder how this would compare with similar projects involving proprietary software. Assuming that it would be possible to blog in such a way without the software vendors and contractors setting their lawyers loose!</htmltext>
<tokenext>This blog chronicles the failure of this project : http : //limuxwatch.blogspot.com/ [ blogspot.com ] Wonder how this would compare with similar projects involving proprietary software .
Assuming that it would be possible to blog in such a way without the software vendors and contractors setting their lawyers loose !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This blog chronicles the failure of this project: http://limuxwatch.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]   Wonder how this would compare with similar projects involving proprietary software.
Assuming that it would be possible to blog in such a way without the software vendors and contractors setting their lawyers loose!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502015</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502171</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246185900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's supposed to save money in the long run, of course MS will be cheaper at first because you don't have to cope with defeating the vendor lock-in if you stay with Windows but it matters what happens a few years down the line.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's supposed to save money in the long run , of course MS will be cheaper at first because you do n't have to cope with defeating the vendor lock-in if you stay with Windows but it matters what happens a few years down the line .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's supposed to save money in the long run, of course MS will be cheaper at first because you don't have to cope with defeating the vendor lock-in if you stay with Windows but it matters what happens a few years down the line.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502361</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>ReeceTarbert</author>
	<datestamp>1246189200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Wasn't this suppose to save money?</p></div><p>Not really. From the article:</p><p>  <i>"While the proprietary solution was deemed to be slightly more cost-effective over the full period, <b>the strategic advantage of being free to take its own IT decisions led the city council to decide in favour of the migration to GNU/Linux.</b> </i>"</p><p> 
and also from the same:</p><p> 
"<i>The Microsoft solution would have made it necessary to introduce an Active Directory system, which would have meant a strong lock-in and would have caused significant follow-up costs.</i></p><p>

RT</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Was n't this suppose to save money ? Not really .
From the article : " While the proprietary solution was deemed to be slightly more cost-effective over the full period , the strategic advantage of being free to take its own IT decisions led the city council to decide in favour of the migration to GNU/Linux .
" and also from the same : " The Microsoft solution would have made it necessary to introduce an Active Directory system , which would have meant a strong lock-in and would have caused significant follow-up costs .
RT</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wasn't this suppose to save money?Not really.
From the article:  "While the proprietary solution was deemed to be slightly more cost-effective over the full period, the strategic advantage of being free to take its own IT decisions led the city council to decide in favour of the migration to GNU/Linux.
" 
and also from the same: 
"The Microsoft solution would have made it necessary to introduce an Active Directory system, which would have meant a strong lock-in and would have caused significant follow-up costs.
RT
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502079</id>
	<title>Cost of support?</title>
	<author>moon3</author>
	<datestamp>1246184280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>upgrade of the then-existing Windows NT4 operating system to Windows XP would have been as much as <b>two million euros cheaper</b> </i>
<br> <br>
Installing Linux has been costly enough already. One can only imagine the effort to keep everything going, that could potentially be even heavier expense.</htmltext>
<tokenext>upgrade of the then-existing Windows NT4 operating system to Windows XP would have been as much as two million euros cheaper Installing Linux has been costly enough already .
One can only imagine the effort to keep everything going , that could potentially be even heavier expense .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>upgrade of the then-existing Windows NT4 operating system to Windows XP would have been as much as two million euros cheaper 
 
Installing Linux has been costly enough already.
One can only imagine the effort to keep everything going, that could potentially be even heavier expense.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502409</id>
	<title>Re:Needs Logo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246189860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It will have to be like this:<br>http://www.loewenbraeu.de/</p><p>PS: The spam filter just asked me to type fascism...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It will have to be like this : http : //www.loewenbraeu.de/PS : The spam filter just asked me to type fascism.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It will have to be like this:http://www.loewenbraeu.de/PS: The spam filter just asked me to type fascism...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502047</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502055</id>
	<title>Nice wake up!</title>
	<author>pickle\_in\_being</author>
	<datestamp>1246183800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I love good news in the morning!!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I love good news in the morning !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I love good news in the morning!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502835</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246195440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The 10\% is November 2008. It's the end of June 2009. It's entirely possible that the 60\% figure in TFA is correct.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The 10 \ % is November 2008 .
It 's the end of June 2009 .
It 's entirely possible that the 60 \ % figure in TFA is correct .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The 10\% is November 2008.
It's the end of June 2009.
It's entirely possible that the 60\% figure in TFA is correct.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28511841</id>
	<title>What is a reasonable time-frame?</title>
	<author>Ignatius</author>
	<datestamp>1246274220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A 5 to 10 year time frame seems quite reasonable for a project like this - if anything it's a bit on the tight side; technological revolutions in other industries like manufactoring usually take considerably longer. This is not about migrating a couple of office destops and a server or two - this is about migrating the complete IT infratructure of Germany's third largest city and affects pretty much every piece of software that is currently used in the public sector. Already the interal and external interoperabilty issues (with other administrative bodies, contractors and the public) pose a formidable challenge. And you have to do it as an early adopter in the worst possible environment for change - after all, this is not a "dictatoric" private company but a city government with politics, hidden agendas, entreched formal and (even harder to identify as well to change) informal work flows and bureaucratic procedures, subborn tenured civil servents and legal issues behind every corner. It's in many way's the worst case scenario for Linux migration, a really Herculian task! If you can make it there, then anywhere else will seem trivial by comparison.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A 5 to 10 year time frame seems quite reasonable for a project like this - if anything it 's a bit on the tight side ; technological revolutions in other industries like manufactoring usually take considerably longer .
This is not about migrating a couple of office destops and a server or two - this is about migrating the complete IT infratructure of Germany 's third largest city and affects pretty much every piece of software that is currently used in the public sector .
Already the interal and external interoperabilty issues ( with other administrative bodies , contractors and the public ) pose a formidable challenge .
And you have to do it as an early adopter in the worst possible environment for change - after all , this is not a " dictatoric " private company but a city government with politics , hidden agendas , entreched formal and ( even harder to identify as well to change ) informal work flows and bureaucratic procedures , subborn tenured civil servents and legal issues behind every corner .
It 's in many way 's the worst case scenario for Linux migration , a really Herculian task !
If you can make it there , then anywhere else will seem trivial by comparison .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A 5 to 10 year time frame seems quite reasonable for a project like this - if anything it's a bit on the tight side; technological revolutions in other industries like manufactoring usually take considerably longer.
This is not about migrating a couple of office destops and a server or two - this is about migrating the complete IT infratructure of Germany's third largest city and affects pretty much every piece of software that is currently used in the public sector.
Already the interal and external interoperabilty issues (with other administrative bodies, contractors and the public) pose a formidable challenge.
And you have to do it as an early adopter in the worst possible environment for change - after all, this is not a "dictatoric" private company but a city government with politics, hidden agendas, entreched formal and (even harder to identify as well to change) informal work flows and bureaucratic procedures, subborn tenured civil servents and legal issues behind every corner.
It's in many way's the worst case scenario for Linux migration, a really Herculian task!
If you can make it there, then anywhere else will seem trivial by comparison.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28504755</id>
	<title>Moving at the Speed of Light</title>
	<author>Gr8outdrs</author>
	<datestamp>1246210920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Like the article says, &#226;oethey reached out to all stakeholders&#226;. I think the amazing part is that they got enough stakeholders to agree to the change. Change is not something that a lot of people &#226;oeembrace&#226; if you will, especially government agencies that entrenched in their ways of doing things. I could easily imagine them taking ten years just to make a decision never mind getting the project started. I would say that to have gotten as much done as fast as they have would be considered the speed of light in a lot of situations.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Like the article says ,   oethey reached out to all stakeholders   .
I think the amazing part is that they got enough stakeholders to agree to the change .
Change is not something that a lot of people   oeembrace   if you will , especially government agencies that entrenched in their ways of doing things .
I could easily imagine them taking ten years just to make a decision never mind getting the project started .
I would say that to have gotten as much done as fast as they have would be considered the speed of light in a lot of situations .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Like the article says, âoethey reached out to all stakeholdersâ.
I think the amazing part is that they got enough stakeholders to agree to the change.
Change is not something that a lot of people âoeembraceâ if you will, especially government agencies that entrenched in their ways of doing things.
I could easily imagine them taking ten years just to make a decision never mind getting the project started.
I would say that to have gotten as much done as fast as they have would be considered the speed of light in a lot of situations.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502429</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28503205</id>
	<title>Re:A success? Some people disagree...</title>
	<author>arose</author>
	<datestamp>1246199400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Nevermind the figure, XPwould be obsolete by now and another migration would have to be planned.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Nevermind the figure , XPwould be obsolete by now and another migration would have to be planned .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nevermind the figure, XPwould be obsolete by now and another migration would have to be planned.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502351</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502429</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246190100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You say this as if it's necessarily a bad thing.</p><p>It's a good idea to get things done as quickly as possible, generally speaking, but you should also give them as much time as necessary to do them PROPERLY.</p><p>Munich, it seems, was under no particular pressure to rush the project through and meet and arbitrarily-set deadlines so that shareholders would be satisfied or so that a C*O would be able to collect his bonus. Isn't it better to take a few more years and actually do the job well, in a way that will ensure the resulting "ecosystem" and infrastructure is going to last, than to rush it and have it all fall apart in 5 or 10 or even 20 years?</p><p>Of course, this is Slashdot, so chances are you're the libertarian sort who hates anything that's been touched by the "government". Which is fair enough, but you shouldn't confuse cause and effect: if you want to hate the government, do so because the things it does are objectively bad. If you automatically view everything the government does as bad for no other reason than that it's the government (which you hate) that did it, then you've got it backwards - you've slipped from reason into more or less blind ideology.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You say this as if it 's necessarily a bad thing.It 's a good idea to get things done as quickly as possible , generally speaking , but you should also give them as much time as necessary to do them PROPERLY.Munich , it seems , was under no particular pressure to rush the project through and meet and arbitrarily-set deadlines so that shareholders would be satisfied or so that a C * O would be able to collect his bonus .
Is n't it better to take a few more years and actually do the job well , in a way that will ensure the resulting " ecosystem " and infrastructure is going to last , than to rush it and have it all fall apart in 5 or 10 or even 20 years ? Of course , this is Slashdot , so chances are you 're the libertarian sort who hates anything that 's been touched by the " government " .
Which is fair enough , but you should n't confuse cause and effect : if you want to hate the government , do so because the things it does are objectively bad .
If you automatically view everything the government does as bad for no other reason than that it 's the government ( which you hate ) that did it , then you 've got it backwards - you 've slipped from reason into more or less blind ideology .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You say this as if it's necessarily a bad thing.It's a good idea to get things done as quickly as possible, generally speaking, but you should also give them as much time as necessary to do them PROPERLY.Munich, it seems, was under no particular pressure to rush the project through and meet and arbitrarily-set deadlines so that shareholders would be satisfied or so that a C*O would be able to collect his bonus.
Isn't it better to take a few more years and actually do the job well, in a way that will ensure the resulting "ecosystem" and infrastructure is going to last, than to rush it and have it all fall apart in 5 or 10 or even 20 years?Of course, this is Slashdot, so chances are you're the libertarian sort who hates anything that's been touched by the "government".
Which is fair enough, but you shouldn't confuse cause and effect: if you want to hate the government, do so because the things it does are objectively bad.
If you automatically view everything the government does as bad for no other reason than that it's the government (which you hate) that did it, then you've got it backwards - you've slipped from reason into more or less blind ideology.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502175</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502015</id>
	<title>A success? Some people disagree...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246183200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This blog chronicles the failure of this project: <a href="http://limuxwatch.blogspot.com/" title="blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://limuxwatch.blogspot.com/</a> [blogspot.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This blog chronicles the failure of this project : http : //limuxwatch.blogspot.com/ [ blogspot.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This blog chronicles the failure of this project: http://limuxwatch.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28584797</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>dave87656</author>
	<datestamp>1246736100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are only looking at the initial cost. Plus, as with most ground-breaking moves, there are alot of issues to work out at the beginning. Each progressive city to switch with have an easier time.</p><p>MS has made it their business policy to make switching hard. They've suceeded at that. But, it's not impossible and their worst nightmare is starting to come true: people are switching.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are only looking at the initial cost .
Plus , as with most ground-breaking moves , there are alot of issues to work out at the beginning .
Each progressive city to switch with have an easier time.MS has made it their business policy to make switching hard .
They 've suceeded at that .
But , it 's not impossible and their worst nightmare is starting to come true : people are switching .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are only looking at the initial cost.
Plus, as with most ground-breaking moves, there are alot of issues to work out at the beginning.
Each progressive city to switch with have an easier time.MS has made it their business policy to make switching hard.
They've suceeded at that.
But, it's not impossible and their worst nightmare is starting to come true: people are switching.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28507231</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>prefec2</author>
	<datestamp>1246186080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They did a little more than migrating to Linux. They started by migrating the applications. And while they did it they improved the internal processes. So they used the migration also to improve other parts of the bureaucracy/of the city management. This is why this is taking so long. They rewrote specialized applications, they integrated several small office solutions to city wide solutions. And they said in the beginning they do not want to overstrain the users. So they first give them new browsers, email-clients, word-processors. Then they added new plugins for these applications etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They did a little more than migrating to Linux .
They started by migrating the applications .
And while they did it they improved the internal processes .
So they used the migration also to improve other parts of the bureaucracy/of the city management .
This is why this is taking so long .
They rewrote specialized applications , they integrated several small office solutions to city wide solutions .
And they said in the beginning they do not want to overstrain the users .
So they first give them new browsers , email-clients , word-processors .
Then they added new plugins for these applications etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They did a little more than migrating to Linux.
They started by migrating the applications.
And while they did it they improved the internal processes.
So they used the migration also to improve other parts of the bureaucracy/of the city management.
This is why this is taking so long.
They rewrote specialized applications, they integrated several small office solutions to city wide solutions.
And they said in the beginning they do not want to overstrain the users.
So they first give them new browsers, email-clients, word-processors.
Then they added new plugins for these applications etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28539075</id>
	<title>Re:Why Munich is important</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246389120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I can't help but wonder--city planning and street departments need to use a program like AutoCAD or its verticals, such as AutoCAD Civil.  This stuff won't run in WINE.  I haven't found a viable open source CAD solution, only rudimentary 2D apps that are reminiscent of AutoCAD Release 12 for DOS.  Do they need to keep Windows on hand to run these apps?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't help but wonder--city planning and street departments need to use a program like AutoCAD or its verticals , such as AutoCAD Civil .
This stuff wo n't run in WINE .
I have n't found a viable open source CAD solution , only rudimentary 2D apps that are reminiscent of AutoCAD Release 12 for DOS .
Do they need to keep Windows on hand to run these apps ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't help but wonder--city planning and street departments need to use a program like AutoCAD or its verticals, such as AutoCAD Civil.
This stuff won't run in WINE.
I haven't found a viable open source CAD solution, only rudimentary 2D apps that are reminiscent of AutoCAD Release 12 for DOS.
Do they need to keep Windows on hand to run these apps?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28506693</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28511421</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>thunrida</author>
	<datestamp>1246270320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well, first years it also took them to migrate to Openoffice, Thunderbird, Firefox. And train users on this new environment. This phase was done 1 year ago and now they entered the final stage, OS change.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , first years it also took them to migrate to Openoffice , Thunderbird , Firefox .
And train users on this new environment .
This phase was done 1 year ago and now they entered the final stage , OS change .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, first years it also took them to migrate to Openoffice, Thunderbird, Firefox.
And train users on this new environment.
This phase was done 1 year ago and now they entered the final stage, OS change.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502405</id>
	<title>Re:Doing OK, in spite of bumps in the road</title>
	<author>Lennie</author>
	<datestamp>1246189800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Further, you must bear in mind that Munich is a pioneer in even attempting to replace a major Microsoft based infrastructure with open source software. They are having to to do everything from scratch, which I'm sure increases the cost.</i></p><p>That's what you'd call an early adoptor, they usually pay more, but definitly in this case, everyone, especially the other german government agencies that will adopt it too, will benefit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Further , you must bear in mind that Munich is a pioneer in even attempting to replace a major Microsoft based infrastructure with open source software .
They are having to to do everything from scratch , which I 'm sure increases the cost.That 's what you 'd call an early adoptor , they usually pay more , but definitly in this case , everyone , especially the other german government agencies that will adopt it too , will benefit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Further, you must bear in mind that Munich is a pioneer in even attempting to replace a major Microsoft based infrastructure with open source software.
They are having to to do everything from scratch, which I'm sure increases the cost.That's what you'd call an early adoptor, they usually pay more, but definitly in this case, everyone, especially the other german government agencies that will adopt it too, will benefit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502251</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28509599</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>jawahar</author>
	<datestamp>1246208160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I work for Govt. Every action we take must be endorsed by everybody in Judiciary, Legislative and Administration.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I work for Govt .
Every action we take must be endorsed by everybody in Judiciary , Legislative and Administration .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work for Govt.
Every action we take must be endorsed by everybody in Judiciary, Legislative and Administration.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502175</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502211</id>
	<title>Linux at home for the city employees?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246186560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm wondering if they have a percentage of the city employees who, after using Linux at work, have migrated over to Linux at home?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm wondering if they have a percentage of the city employees who , after using Linux at work , have migrated over to Linux at home ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm wondering if they have a percentage of the city employees who, after using Linux at work, have migrated over to Linux at home?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28503299</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246200120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Agree it is a failure...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Agree it is a failure.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agree it is a failure...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502359</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502355</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>jcookeman</author>
	<datestamp>1246189020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't think you read the relevant bits. The project was put on hold a few years ago for patent legality research. And, they are doing a "soft migration" in which relevant open source applications are being installed on Windows to gear up the user base for the switch.

Just pulling the rug out from under all the users quickly is stupid and will generate nothing but backlash. I read the OSOR page, and it seems they know what they are doing and doing it well. I drive a Mercedes, and I can say that Germans don't half ass things.

Speculatively, I would say the cost is so high because the city most likely dug themselves a hole by developing loads of software that is Windows specific. But, they are doing the right thing here by getting their technology independence. In 10 years from now, their operating costs will be amazingly low since they will ditch millions in MS tax, have a user base acclimatized to Linux, flexible applications, and knowledgeable admins.

This should be an example and business case to other governments and large organizations that they too can save themselves tons of cash by just going through the pain of undoing "easy decisions".</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't think you read the relevant bits .
The project was put on hold a few years ago for patent legality research .
And , they are doing a " soft migration " in which relevant open source applications are being installed on Windows to gear up the user base for the switch .
Just pulling the rug out from under all the users quickly is stupid and will generate nothing but backlash .
I read the OSOR page , and it seems they know what they are doing and doing it well .
I drive a Mercedes , and I can say that Germans do n't half ass things .
Speculatively , I would say the cost is so high because the city most likely dug themselves a hole by developing loads of software that is Windows specific .
But , they are doing the right thing here by getting their technology independence .
In 10 years from now , their operating costs will be amazingly low since they will ditch millions in MS tax , have a user base acclimatized to Linux , flexible applications , and knowledgeable admins .
This should be an example and business case to other governments and large organizations that they too can save themselves tons of cash by just going through the pain of undoing " easy decisions " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't think you read the relevant bits.
The project was put on hold a few years ago for patent legality research.
And, they are doing a "soft migration" in which relevant open source applications are being installed on Windows to gear up the user base for the switch.
Just pulling the rug out from under all the users quickly is stupid and will generate nothing but backlash.
I read the OSOR page, and it seems they know what they are doing and doing it well.
I drive a Mercedes, and I can say that Germans don't half ass things.
Speculatively, I would say the cost is so high because the city most likely dug themselves a hole by developing loads of software that is Windows specific.
But, they are doing the right thing here by getting their technology independence.
In 10 years from now, their operating costs will be amazingly low since they will ditch millions in MS tax, have a user base acclimatized to Linux, flexible applications, and knowledgeable admins.
This should be an example and business case to other governments and large organizations that they too can save themselves tons of cash by just going through the pain of undoing "easy decisions".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28508999</id>
	<title>NT 4</title>
	<author>falconwolf</author>
	<datestamp>1246201980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I might concede however NT4 is normally used on servers (it's a bit expensive for the desktop)</i></p><p>For my personal use, I have NY 4 Workstation on an old PC.  I don't recall how much it cost but I don't think that NT4 was that expensive.</p><p>And BTW it was the best version of Windows I've used.</p><p>

Falcon</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I might concede however NT4 is normally used on servers ( it 's a bit expensive for the desktop ) For my personal use , I have NY 4 Workstation on an old PC .
I do n't recall how much it cost but I do n't think that NT4 was that expensive.And BTW it was the best version of Windows I 've used .
Falcon</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I might concede however NT4 is normally used on servers (it's a bit expensive for the desktop)For my personal use, I have NY 4 Workstation on an old PC.
I don't recall how much it cost but I don't think that NT4 was that expensive.And BTW it was the best version of Windows I've used.
Falcon</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502351</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28505013</id>
	<title>Re:A success? Some people disagree...</title>
	<author>Runaway1956</author>
	<datestamp>1246212600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Conclusions</p><p>"There are perhaps two main lessons to be drawn from Munich's experience. The first one is that such a large-scale migration requires careful analysis and planning, as well as a clearly defined goal. It bears repeating that in Munich this goal is the strategic independence from software suppliers. Lower IT costs are a welcome side-effect, but autonomy is more important."</p><p>I see no failure.  I see people thinking outside the Microsoft box.  People who are interested might actually read and understand.  <a href="http://www.osor.eu/case\_studies/declaration-of-independence-the-limux-project-in-munich#section-12" title="www.osor.eu">http://www.osor.eu/case\_studies/declaration-of-independence-the-limux-project-in-munich#section-12</a> [www.osor.eu]</p><p>I don't believe that anyone in the Linux world has ever suggested that migrating to Linux is completely "free", or even that it saves money in the short term.  It most definitely saves tons of money in the long run.  To suggest otherwise amounts to FUD.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Conclusions " There are perhaps two main lessons to be drawn from Munich 's experience .
The first one is that such a large-scale migration requires careful analysis and planning , as well as a clearly defined goal .
It bears repeating that in Munich this goal is the strategic independence from software suppliers .
Lower IT costs are a welcome side-effect , but autonomy is more important .
" I see no failure .
I see people thinking outside the Microsoft box .
People who are interested might actually read and understand .
http : //www.osor.eu/case \ _studies/declaration-of-independence-the-limux-project-in-munich # section-12 [ www.osor.eu ] I do n't believe that anyone in the Linux world has ever suggested that migrating to Linux is completely " free " , or even that it saves money in the short term .
It most definitely saves tons of money in the long run .
To suggest otherwise amounts to FUD .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Conclusions"There are perhaps two main lessons to be drawn from Munich's experience.
The first one is that such a large-scale migration requires careful analysis and planning, as well as a clearly defined goal.
It bears repeating that in Munich this goal is the strategic independence from software suppliers.
Lower IT costs are a welcome side-effect, but autonomy is more important.
"I see no failure.
I see people thinking outside the Microsoft box.
People who are interested might actually read and understand.
http://www.osor.eu/case\_studies/declaration-of-independence-the-limux-project-in-munich#section-12 [www.osor.eu]I don't believe that anyone in the Linux world has ever suggested that migrating to Linux is completely "free", or even that it saves money in the short term.
It most definitely saves tons of money in the long run.
To suggest otherwise amounts to FUD.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502015</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502575</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>Teun</author>
	<datestamp>1246192020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>When you live in this city (Munich) and state (Bavaria) you are immersed in a many centuries old culture.<br>Munich might not be Rome but a thousand years old structures are what you grow up with, the same is valid for the continuity of the administration. <p>
So who is going to complain about a few years of software migration especially when the goal is greater independence?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When you live in this city ( Munich ) and state ( Bavaria ) you are immersed in a many centuries old culture.Munich might not be Rome but a thousand years old structures are what you grow up with , the same is valid for the continuity of the administration .
So who is going to complain about a few years of software migration especially when the goal is greater independence ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When you live in this city (Munich) and state (Bavaria) you are immersed in a many centuries old culture.Munich might not be Rome but a thousand years old structures are what you grow up with, the same is valid for the continuity of the administration.
So who is going to complain about a few years of software migration especially when the goal is greater independence?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28507243</id>
	<title>I didn't read the fine article, but...</title>
	<author>mikehoskins</author>
	<datestamp>1246186140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Munich's now a State!  Way to go, Linux!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Munich 's now a State !
Way to go , Linux ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Munich's now a State!
Way to go, Linux!!
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502047</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502747</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>the\_womble</author>
	<datestamp>1246194240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>10\% have switched to Linux, but 60\% have switched to Open Office.</p><p>They are also using a custom Linux distro, which must slow things down somewhat.</p><p>It is not fast, but lots of big IT changes take longer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>10 \ % have switched to Linux , but 60 \ % have switched to Open Office.They are also using a custom Linux distro , which must slow things down somewhat.It is not fast , but lots of big IT changes take longer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>10\% have switched to Linux, but 60\% have switched to Open Office.They are also using a custom Linux distro, which must slow things down somewhat.It is not fast, but lots of big IT changes take longer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502111</id>
	<title>Re:A success? Some people disagree...</title>
	<author>wondershit</author>
	<datestamp>1246184760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Some people always disagree.<br>
<br>
(can't wait for the first 'I disagree!' reply)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Some people always disagree .
( ca n't wait for the first 'I disagree !
' reply )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some people always disagree.
(can't wait for the first 'I disagree!
' reply)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502015</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28507265</id>
	<title>Re:Both sides of the story</title>
	<author>prefec2</author>
	<datestamp>1246186260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No. They migrated the applications first. In addition they replaced bad, old applications for administrative processes with new ones, which are designed to work with modern  administrative processes. That's what it taking so long. Also they are training their stuff.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No .
They migrated the applications first .
In addition they replaced bad , old applications for administrative processes with new ones , which are designed to work with modern administrative processes .
That 's what it taking so long .
Also they are training their stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No.
They migrated the applications first.
In addition they replaced bad, old applications for administrative processes with new ones, which are designed to work with modern  administrative processes.
That's what it taking so long.
Also they are training their stuff.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502175</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28503031</id>
	<title>Nice sigmonster.</title>
	<author>catman</author>
	<datestamp>1246197600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>At the bottom of the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. page for this story, the quip of the day reads:
<i> You can always tell the people that are forging the new frontier. They're the ones with arrows sticking out of their backs.</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>At the bottom of the / .
page for this story , the quip of the day reads : You can always tell the people that are forging the new frontier .
They 're the ones with arrows sticking out of their backs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At the bottom of the /.
page for this story, the quip of the day reads:
 You can always tell the people that are forging the new frontier.
They're the ones with arrows sticking out of their backs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502251</id>
	<title>Doing OK, in spite of bumps in the road</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246187340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Considering what's at stake for Microsoft, it's amazing that
Munich's Limux project continues.
<p>
Over the years I've read a great deal about various efforts
to belittle and undermine it. The Munich Limux Watch blog
seems like an attempt to systematically discredit the entire
project. I'd love to find out who's behind it. I doubt it's
directly supported Microsoft, but I'd wouldn't be surprised
if there is some business interest, perhaps a disgruntled
IT supplier or even a public sector employee who doesn't want
their desktop system changed, behind it. Perhaps some clever
Slashdot reader can find out more.
</p><p>
Don't be surprised that there are unexpected costs on a
project of this size and complexity. Think about similar
projects in the (semi-)public sector, some of which had
factor 10 cost overruns and were abandoned (for example:
Denver airport luggage processing system). In the end, the
ability to actually complete the project, even if years
late, and the long-term cost savings will determine its real
success.  [See my signature below]
</p><p>
We shouldn't expect Limux to have an instant pay back. Even
though the operating system is free, the installation
scripting, customization, roll-out, training and support have
real costs, which will take years to amortize. The gain will
only be in the long-term when the infrastructure to support
Limux is in place and saves from not having license costs
associated with forced upgrades are realized.
</p><p>
Further, you must bear in mind that Munich is a pioneer in
even attempting to replace a major Microsoft based
infrastructure with open source software. They are having to
to do everything from scratch, which I'm sure increases the
cost.
</p><p>
Munich's Limux project is a battleground for Microsoft. It
it succeeds then it will become the model for similar
initiatives. This could make non-Microsoft desktop systems
a real alternative for large institutions. This is
Microsoft's disaster scenario, and could ruin their
monopoly hold on the marker. They might even have to,
gasp, compete.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Considering what 's at stake for Microsoft , it 's amazing that Munich 's Limux project continues .
Over the years I 've read a great deal about various efforts to belittle and undermine it .
The Munich Limux Watch blog seems like an attempt to systematically discredit the entire project .
I 'd love to find out who 's behind it .
I doubt it 's directly supported Microsoft , but I 'd would n't be surprised if there is some business interest , perhaps a disgruntled IT supplier or even a public sector employee who does n't want their desktop system changed , behind it .
Perhaps some clever Slashdot reader can find out more .
Do n't be surprised that there are unexpected costs on a project of this size and complexity .
Think about similar projects in the ( semi- ) public sector , some of which had factor 10 cost overruns and were abandoned ( for example : Denver airport luggage processing system ) .
In the end , the ability to actually complete the project , even if years late , and the long-term cost savings will determine its real success .
[ See my signature below ] We should n't expect Limux to have an instant pay back .
Even though the operating system is free , the installation scripting , customization , roll-out , training and support have real costs , which will take years to amortize .
The gain will only be in the long-term when the infrastructure to support Limux is in place and saves from not having license costs associated with forced upgrades are realized .
Further , you must bear in mind that Munich is a pioneer in even attempting to replace a major Microsoft based infrastructure with open source software .
They are having to to do everything from scratch , which I 'm sure increases the cost .
Munich 's Limux project is a battleground for Microsoft .
It it succeeds then it will become the model for similar initiatives .
This could make non-Microsoft desktop systems a real alternative for large institutions .
This is Microsoft 's disaster scenario , and could ruin their monopoly hold on the marker .
They might even have to , gasp , compete .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Considering what's at stake for Microsoft, it's amazing that
Munich's Limux project continues.
Over the years I've read a great deal about various efforts
to belittle and undermine it.
The Munich Limux Watch blog
seems like an attempt to systematically discredit the entire
project.
I'd love to find out who's behind it.
I doubt it's
directly supported Microsoft, but I'd wouldn't be surprised
if there is some business interest, perhaps a disgruntled
IT supplier or even a public sector employee who doesn't want
their desktop system changed, behind it.
Perhaps some clever
Slashdot reader can find out more.
Don't be surprised that there are unexpected costs on a
project of this size and complexity.
Think about similar
projects in the (semi-)public sector, some of which had
factor 10 cost overruns and were abandoned (for example:
Denver airport luggage processing system).
In the end, the
ability to actually complete the project, even if years
late, and the long-term cost savings will determine its real
success.
[See my signature below]

We shouldn't expect Limux to have an instant pay back.
Even
though the operating system is free, the installation
scripting, customization, roll-out, training and support have
real costs, which will take years to amortize.
The gain will
only be in the long-term when the infrastructure to support
Limux is in place and saves from not having license costs
associated with forced upgrades are realized.
Further, you must bear in mind that Munich is a pioneer in
even attempting to replace a major Microsoft based
infrastructure with open source software.
They are having to
to do everything from scratch, which I'm sure increases the
cost.
Munich's Limux project is a battleground for Microsoft.
It
it succeeds then it will become the model for similar
initiatives.
This could make non-Microsoft desktop systems
a real alternative for large institutions.
This is
Microsoft's disaster scenario, and could ruin their
monopoly hold on the marker.
They might even have to,
gasp, compete.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_41</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502405
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502251
</commentlist>
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28503095
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502359
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502185
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_43</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502389
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502171
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_28</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28507361
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28506137
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_10</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28507243
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_33</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28505013
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502015
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_9</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28503205
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502351
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502015
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_3</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28514177
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_25</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28508467
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502071
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_30</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502111
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_2</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502747
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_32</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28511841
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_15</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502769
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_31</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28511421
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_22</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502973
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_1</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28503299
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502359
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502185
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_23</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28508311
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_14</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502361
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_37</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502381
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_42</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28548333
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28502171
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_28_0344234_13</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_28_0344234.28509423
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