<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_06_27_160232</id>
	<title>The Path From Hacker To Security Consultant</title>
	<author>Soulskill</author>
	<datestamp>1246119000000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>CNet has a series of interviews with former hackers who ran afoul of the law in their youth, but later turned their skills toward a profession in security consulting. Adrian Lamo discusses taking "normal every day information resources and [arranging] them in improbable ways," describing a time when he broke into Excite@Home's system and ended up <a href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009\_3-10271162-83.html">answering help desk questions from their users</a>. Kevin Mitnick, famous for gaining access to many high-profile systems, <a href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009\_3-10269348-83.html">warns today's young hackers not to follow in his footsteps</a>, saying, "A lot of pen testers today have done unethical things in their past during their learning process, especially the older ones because there was no opportunity to learn about security. Back in the '70s and '80s, it was all self-taught. So a lot of the old-school hackers really learned on other people's systems. And at the time, I couldn't even afford my own computer." Mark Abene explains how he got interested in phone phreaking, and how it <a href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009\_3-10270582-83.html">led to a prison term and a career in computer security</a>. Like Mitnick, he says that easy access to powerful modern computers removes part of the motivation for breaking into other systems.</htmltext>
<tokenext>CNet has a series of interviews with former hackers who ran afoul of the law in their youth , but later turned their skills toward a profession in security consulting .
Adrian Lamo discusses taking " normal every day information resources and [ arranging ] them in improbable ways , " describing a time when he broke into Excite @ Home 's system and ended up answering help desk questions from their users .
Kevin Mitnick , famous for gaining access to many high-profile systems , warns today 's young hackers not to follow in his footsteps , saying , " A lot of pen testers today have done unethical things in their past during their learning process , especially the older ones because there was no opportunity to learn about security .
Back in the '70s and '80s , it was all self-taught .
So a lot of the old-school hackers really learned on other people 's systems .
And at the time , I could n't even afford my own computer .
" Mark Abene explains how he got interested in phone phreaking , and how it led to a prison term and a career in computer security .
Like Mitnick , he says that easy access to powerful modern computers removes part of the motivation for breaking into other systems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>CNet has a series of interviews with former hackers who ran afoul of the law in their youth, but later turned their skills toward a profession in security consulting.
Adrian Lamo discusses taking "normal every day information resources and [arranging] them in improbable ways," describing a time when he broke into Excite@Home's system and ended up answering help desk questions from their users.
Kevin Mitnick, famous for gaining access to many high-profile systems, warns today's young hackers not to follow in his footsteps, saying, "A lot of pen testers today have done unethical things in their past during their learning process, especially the older ones because there was no opportunity to learn about security.
Back in the '70s and '80s, it was all self-taught.
So a lot of the old-school hackers really learned on other people's systems.
And at the time, I couldn't even afford my own computer.
" Mark Abene explains how he got interested in phone phreaking, and how it led to a prison term and a career in computer security.
Like Mitnick, he says that easy access to powerful modern computers removes part of the motivation for breaking into other systems.</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495457</id>
	<title>Sounds familiar</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246123680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>And at the time, I couldn't even afford my own computer."</p></div><p> <i>Don't do what I've done, do what I say</i>. Things were also tougher for me. When I was a child I had to walk 20 miles to school everyday in a snow storm, through swamps and trying to avoid crocodiles. Things were tough. You kids today have it easy.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And at the time , I could n't even afford my own computer .
" Do n't do what I 've done , do what I say .
Things were also tougher for me .
When I was a child I had to walk 20 miles to school everyday in a snow storm , through swamps and trying to avoid crocodiles .
Things were tough .
You kids today have it easy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And at the time, I couldn't even afford my own computer.
" Don't do what I've done, do what I say.
Things were also tougher for me.
When I was a child I had to walk 20 miles to school everyday in a snow storm, through swamps and trying to avoid crocodiles.
Things were tough.
You kids today have it easy.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495479</id>
	<title>From hacker to help desk?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246123860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>he broke into Excite@Home's system and ended up answering help desk questions from their users.</p></div><p>Sounds like he's still being punished for his "crimes".</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>he broke into Excite @ Home 's system and ended up answering help desk questions from their users.Sounds like he 's still being punished for his " crimes " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>he broke into Excite@Home's system and ended up answering help desk questions from their users.Sounds like he's still being punished for his "crimes".
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495587</id>
	<title>Crackers, not hackers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246124640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm disappointed, Slashdot editor. Everyone here should know that people who break into other systems are <i>crackers</i>, while "hacker" simply refers to anyone with an interest in coding and computer technology.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm disappointed , Slashdot editor .
Everyone here should know that people who break into other systems are crackers , while " hacker " simply refers to anyone with an interest in coding and computer technology .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm disappointed, Slashdot editor.
Everyone here should know that people who break into other systems are crackers, while "hacker" simply refers to anyone with an interest in coding and computer technology.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28523137</id>
	<title>Re:Not in my experience</title>
	<author>spinkham</author>
	<datestamp>1246287180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Security is risk analysis.  If you want your company to make security changes, you need to give the stakeholders the information they need to make decisions, in terms of dollars and cents and probabilities.<br>I would recommend you pick up a few books like "The New School of Information Security" and "Security Metrics: Replacing Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt".  They do a good job of helping you to see security risk through business eyes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Security is risk analysis .
If you want your company to make security changes , you need to give the stakeholders the information they need to make decisions , in terms of dollars and cents and probabilities.I would recommend you pick up a few books like " The New School of Information Security " and " Security Metrics : Replacing Fear , Uncertainty , and Doubt " .
They do a good job of helping you to see security risk through business eyes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Security is risk analysis.
If you want your company to make security changes, you need to give the stakeholders the information they need to make decisions, in terms of dollars and cents and probabilities.I would recommend you pick up a few books like "The New School of Information Security" and "Security Metrics: Replacing Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt".
They do a good job of helping you to see security risk through business eyes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495735</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28523959</id>
	<title>cheap wow gold</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246294080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
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</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28503669</id>
	<title>This is stupid</title>
	<author>stanjam</author>
	<datestamp>1246203120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why in the world would you hire someone who got "caught" hacking to do your security? There are plenty of people out there who know security but don't have a record of taking a company's information.  Even most of the people who "hacked" didn't steal information, just got into stuff to see what we could do.  Yet companies are hiring these people. Unbelievable.  Like most things, the best never got busted, and many of them do security now.  Let me tell you, it is a whole different game nowadays.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why in the world would you hire someone who got " caught " hacking to do your security ?
There are plenty of people out there who know security but do n't have a record of taking a company 's information .
Even most of the people who " hacked " did n't steal information , just got into stuff to see what we could do .
Yet companies are hiring these people .
Unbelievable. Like most things , the best never got busted , and many of them do security now .
Let me tell you , it is a whole different game nowadays .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why in the world would you hire someone who got "caught" hacking to do your security?
There are plenty of people out there who know security but don't have a record of taking a company's information.
Even most of the people who "hacked" didn't steal information, just got into stuff to see what we could do.
Yet companies are hiring these people.
Unbelievable.  Like most things, the best never got busted, and many of them do security now.
Let me tell you, it is a whole different game nowadays.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495745</id>
	<title>Re:Old adage.</title>
	<author>Omniscient Lurker</author>
	<datestamp>1246126020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Academia wise the worst students at my school dropped out (~20 from my class) or got expelled (1 from my class) and didn't graduate so there is no way they can become teachers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Academia wise the worst students at my school dropped out ( ~ 20 from my class ) or got expelled ( 1 from my class ) and did n't graduate so there is no way they can become teachers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Academia wise the worst students at my school dropped out (~20 from my class) or got expelled (1 from my class) and didn't graduate so there is no way they can become teachers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495555</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495529</id>
	<title>Lamo.</title>
	<author>descil</author>
	<datestamp>1246124220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><tt>I'm sorry but... come on... dude is just pure lamesauce... &amp; his whole family too.</tt></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sorry but... come on... dude is just pure lamesauce... &amp; his whole family too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sorry but... come on... dude is just pure lamesauce... &amp; his whole family too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28502773</id>
	<title>Black hat behavior is not necessary</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246194480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A common theme of a lot of the replies seems to be that black hat behavior is the only way to learn computer security.  Far from it.  I don't need to have broken into an insecure network connection without permission to understand the problems of sending passwords in the clear.  Often, it takes a little imagination, a bit of reasoning, and a bit of technical skill -- the same skills I often suggest for system administrators.</p><p>The best security analysts I've worked with are so strictly white hat that they've managed to get policies in place that prohibit black or gray hats from working in security in the companys I've been in.  Is it perfect?  No.  Some people managed to mostly hide their historical black hat behavior.  Once it was learned, a quiet black mark was placed against them and they were gently eased away from security work.  There are enough good security professionals who have no history of breaking into computers without permission of the owner to fill the jobs requiring that level of technical skill.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A common theme of a lot of the replies seems to be that black hat behavior is the only way to learn computer security .
Far from it .
I do n't need to have broken into an insecure network connection without permission to understand the problems of sending passwords in the clear .
Often , it takes a little imagination , a bit of reasoning , and a bit of technical skill -- the same skills I often suggest for system administrators.The best security analysts I 've worked with are so strictly white hat that they 've managed to get policies in place that prohibit black or gray hats from working in security in the companys I 've been in .
Is it perfect ?
No. Some people managed to mostly hide their historical black hat behavior .
Once it was learned , a quiet black mark was placed against them and they were gently eased away from security work .
There are enough good security professionals who have no history of breaking into computers without permission of the owner to fill the jobs requiring that level of technical skill .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A common theme of a lot of the replies seems to be that black hat behavior is the only way to learn computer security.
Far from it.
I don't need to have broken into an insecure network connection without permission to understand the problems of sending passwords in the clear.
Often, it takes a little imagination, a bit of reasoning, and a bit of technical skill -- the same skills I often suggest for system administrators.The best security analysts I've worked with are so strictly white hat that they've managed to get policies in place that prohibit black or gray hats from working in security in the companys I've been in.
Is it perfect?
No.  Some people managed to mostly hide their historical black hat behavior.
Once it was learned, a quiet black mark was placed against them and they were gently eased away from security work.
There are enough good security professionals who have no history of breaking into computers without permission of the owner to fill the jobs requiring that level of technical skill.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28496127</id>
	<title>The Right Mentaltity</title>
	<author>that this is not und</author>
	<datestamp>1246129740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Security Vendors need people with 'the cracker mentality' to join their ranks.  Without 'morally gray' staffers, how could they supply regimes like the ones in Iran and China with the 'tools' they need to operate their repressive regimes?  Morally blind nihilists, while not necessarily those to fill the ranks of the Ideologically 'pure' elite inside the regime, will always be necessary force.</p><p>The people that they can't EVER become involved with are the real hackers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Security Vendors need people with 'the cracker mentality ' to join their ranks .
Without 'morally gray ' staffers , how could they supply regimes like the ones in Iran and China with the 'tools ' they need to operate their repressive regimes ?
Morally blind nihilists , while not necessarily those to fill the ranks of the Ideologically 'pure ' elite inside the regime , will always be necessary force.The people that they ca n't EVER become involved with are the real hackers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Security Vendors need people with 'the cracker mentality' to join their ranks.
Without 'morally gray' staffers, how could they supply regimes like the ones in Iran and China with the 'tools' they need to operate their repressive regimes?
Morally blind nihilists, while not necessarily those to fill the ranks of the Ideologically 'pure' elite inside the regime, will always be necessary force.The people that they can't EVER become involved with are the real hackers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495613</id>
	<title>Software Pirate - IT Professional</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246124940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Speaking from experience, it is difficult to get back into the workplace after a battle with law enforcement due to a high-tech crime.  It is possible, however.  Keep your nose clean and keep up with the industry and eventually you can regain a bit of trust.  I am proof that it is possible, as I was once the subject of a Slashdot interview regarding a pretty public piracy case.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Speaking from experience , it is difficult to get back into the workplace after a battle with law enforcement due to a high-tech crime .
It is possible , however .
Keep your nose clean and keep up with the industry and eventually you can regain a bit of trust .
I am proof that it is possible , as I was once the subject of a Slashdot interview regarding a pretty public piracy case .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Speaking from experience, it is difficult to get back into the workplace after a battle with law enforcement due to a high-tech crime.
It is possible, however.
Keep your nose clean and keep up with the industry and eventually you can regain a bit of trust.
I am proof that it is possible, as I was once the subject of a Slashdot interview regarding a pretty public piracy case.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28500263</id>
	<title>former hackers?</title>
	<author>plnix0</author>
	<datestamp>1246117800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>CNet has a series of interviews with former hackers</p></div><p>If they're only <em>former</em> hackers, then they're useless as security consultants.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>CNet has a series of interviews with former hackersIf they 're only former hackers , then they 're useless as security consultants .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>CNet has a series of interviews with former hackersIf they're only former hackers, then they're useless as security consultants.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28500877</id>
	<title>Re:Me don't like</title>
	<author>cenc</author>
	<datestamp>1246123020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Several of the security companies chiefs in interviews flatly say they don't hire hackers. Why? Because they are lazy workers. Not they do not have talents or experience, but the kind of social background that produces the best of them also produces the worst sorts of employees.  It was not about their encounters with the laws.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Several of the security companies chiefs in interviews flatly say they do n't hire hackers .
Why ? Because they are lazy workers .
Not they do not have talents or experience , but the kind of social background that produces the best of them also produces the worst sorts of employees .
It was not about their encounters with the laws .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Several of the security companies chiefs in interviews flatly say they don't hire hackers.
Why? Because they are lazy workers.
Not they do not have talents or experience, but the kind of social background that produces the best of them also produces the worst sorts of employees.
It was not about their encounters with the laws.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495969</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495889</id>
	<title>Re:Crackers, not hackers</title>
	<author>CaptainJeff</author>
	<datestamp>1246127460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm disappointed, Slashdot reader/commenter.  Everyone here should know that the meaning of the word "hacker" has changed over time and evolved to mean, most of the time, what "cracker" means.  Word definitions change over time and this word has been assimilated with a new definition, accepted by the majority of the English-speaking world.

If you want to hang on to the cracker vs hacker definitions, feel free.  But most people have moved beyond this.

<br> <br>
Plus, your definition of "hacker" is off anyway.  In the classical sense, "hacker" means someone who experiments and gets something to do something it was not intended to do.  Doesn't have to be code, doesn't have to be a computer, doesn't have to be anything in particular.  The original targets/subjects of the earliest "hacking" (largely out of MIT) was the phone system, not programs or computers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm disappointed , Slashdot reader/commenter .
Everyone here should know that the meaning of the word " hacker " has changed over time and evolved to mean , most of the time , what " cracker " means .
Word definitions change over time and this word has been assimilated with a new definition , accepted by the majority of the English-speaking world .
If you want to hang on to the cracker vs hacker definitions , feel free .
But most people have moved beyond this .
Plus , your definition of " hacker " is off anyway .
In the classical sense , " hacker " means someone who experiments and gets something to do something it was not intended to do .
Does n't have to be code , does n't have to be a computer , does n't have to be anything in particular .
The original targets/subjects of the earliest " hacking " ( largely out of MIT ) was the phone system , not programs or computers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm disappointed, Slashdot reader/commenter.
Everyone here should know that the meaning of the word "hacker" has changed over time and evolved to mean, most of the time, what "cracker" means.
Word definitions change over time and this word has been assimilated with a new definition, accepted by the majority of the English-speaking world.
If you want to hang on to the cracker vs hacker definitions, feel free.
But most people have moved beyond this.
Plus, your definition of "hacker" is off anyway.
In the classical sense, "hacker" means someone who experiments and gets something to do something it was not intended to do.
Doesn't have to be code, doesn't have to be a computer, doesn't have to be anything in particular.
The original targets/subjects of the earliest "hacking" (largely out of MIT) was the phone system, not programs or computers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495587</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28496073</id>
	<title>Re:Criminal record == no job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246129200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Back in the late 90's (age 13-17) I was a "curious" about security. I did many things which would now be considered criminal or, at the very least, of ethical concern. I now hold the highest level security clearance you can get, helping to defend our military infrastructure. This is after admitting my youthful behavior to my investigators. Perhaps it is more about being caught than actually committing the crime? Or perhaps it was that I had grew out of it and proven myself a trustworthy individual? Probably a combination of both.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Back in the late 90 's ( age 13-17 ) I was a " curious " about security .
I did many things which would now be considered criminal or , at the very least , of ethical concern .
I now hold the highest level security clearance you can get , helping to defend our military infrastructure .
This is after admitting my youthful behavior to my investigators .
Perhaps it is more about being caught than actually committing the crime ?
Or perhaps it was that I had grew out of it and proven myself a trustworthy individual ?
Probably a combination of both .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back in the late 90's (age 13-17) I was a "curious" about security.
I did many things which would now be considered criminal or, at the very least, of ethical concern.
I now hold the highest level security clearance you can get, helping to defend our military infrastructure.
This is after admitting my youthful behavior to my investigators.
Perhaps it is more about being caught than actually committing the crime?
Or perhaps it was that I had grew out of it and proven myself a trustworthy individual?
Probably a combination of both.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495577</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495775</id>
	<title>Re:Criminal record == no job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246126260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"A lot of jobs"?  You mean jobs where you're an <i>employee</i>.</p><p>This is why most of these guys are "consultants".  That is, they run their own business and therefore don't typically require any of the normal checks that employees have to get.  Some (government) things require security clearance but most stuff does not.  All you need is a good reputation and proven skills.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" A lot of jobs " ?
You mean jobs where you 're an employee.This is why most of these guys are " consultants " .
That is , they run their own business and therefore do n't typically require any of the normal checks that employees have to get .
Some ( government ) things require security clearance but most stuff does not .
All you need is a good reputation and proven skills .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"A lot of jobs"?
You mean jobs where you're an employee.This is why most of these guys are "consultants".
That is, they run their own business and therefore don't typically require any of the normal checks that employees have to get.
Some (government) things require security clearance but most stuff does not.
All you need is a good reputation and proven skills.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495577</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28498207</id>
	<title>I can personally relate...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246100640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was caught hacking pbx's and calling cards and using them for call backs and call fwding to facilitate credit card and direct deposit scams in Australia..<br>I am now generally a profitable security consultant with my own vsp/telco<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... but that took over 10 years a transition to complete and not a journey I would recommend for anyone either. There's much easier and quicker ways to get here... put it that way....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was caught hacking pbx 's and calling cards and using them for call backs and call fwding to facilitate credit card and direct deposit scams in Australia..I am now generally a profitable security consultant with my own vsp/telco ... but that took over 10 years a transition to complete and not a journey I would recommend for anyone either .
There 's much easier and quicker ways to get here... put it that way... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was caught hacking pbx's and calling cards and using them for call backs and call fwding to facilitate credit card and direct deposit scams in Australia..I am now generally a profitable security consultant with my own vsp/telco ... but that took over 10 years a transition to complete and not a journey I would recommend for anyone either.
There's much easier and quicker ways to get here... put it that way....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495643</id>
	<title>These days, unethical hacking only leads one place</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246125120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Politics.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Politics .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Politics.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28496157</id>
	<title>Re:Old adage.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246130040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Frank W. Abagnale</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Frank W. Abagnale</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Frank W. Abagnale</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495555</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28506335</id>
	<title>Re:Crackers, not hackers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246221360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Listen, asshole- nobody asked you. When I need someone to design a webpage, or some phone monkey who can tell a bunch of senior citizens how to use a certain piece of software, I'll give you a call. But I've intentionally left you out of the loop on this one.</p><p>"Hacker" means "cracker," sorry, you lose<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:\</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Listen , asshole- nobody asked you .
When I need someone to design a webpage , or some phone monkey who can tell a bunch of senior citizens how to use a certain piece of software , I 'll give you a call .
But I 've intentionally left you out of the loop on this one .
" Hacker " means " cracker , " sorry , you lose : \</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Listen, asshole- nobody asked you.
When I need someone to design a webpage, or some phone monkey who can tell a bunch of senior citizens how to use a certain piece of software, I'll give you a call.
But I've intentionally left you out of the loop on this one.
"Hacker" means "cracker," sorry, you lose :\</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495587</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495633</id>
	<title>Quit nitpicking</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246125060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hacker means cracker, end of story.</p><p>That what you call hacker, is just a hopeless virgin.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hacker means cracker , end of story.That what you call hacker , is just a hopeless virgin .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hacker means cracker, end of story.That what you call hacker, is just a hopeless virgin.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28501333</id>
	<title>Re:Criminal record == no job</title>
	<author>Ihmhi</author>
	<datestamp>1246127580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Remember kids, criminals never make money! Just look at Martha Stewart, 50 Cent, and Don King!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Remember kids , criminals never make money !
Just look at Martha Stewart , 50 Cent , and Don King !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Remember kids, criminals never make money!
Just look at Martha Stewart, 50 Cent, and Don King!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495577</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28496059</id>
	<title>Re:Criminal record == no job</title>
	<author>smoker2</author>
	<datestamp>1246129080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>It is the exception, not the rule, that a hacker becomes employed as a highly paid consultant.</p></div> </blockquote><p>How do you know ?<br>Surely if you were any good at it you wouldn't get caught, so no criminal record. It's only the ones who do get caught that have nothing to lose by exposing their past. And of course they're going to say "don't do it". I would argue that we need more people involved in it not less. Why should "the man" have everything his way ? Sometimes it is necessary to step outside the law, precisely because it is the law. If an authoritarian govt. says you can't access a website, should you just say "yes sir", or would you find a way to do it anyway ? I would have thought that with all the passive-aggressive angst on here recently regarding Irans internet policy, the answer should be obvious.<br> <br>"Hacking" drives security, and keeps the corporations and the govt. awake. Information is control, why should the powers that be have all the control ?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is the exception , not the rule , that a hacker becomes employed as a highly paid consultant .
How do you know ? Surely if you were any good at it you would n't get caught , so no criminal record .
It 's only the ones who do get caught that have nothing to lose by exposing their past .
And of course they 're going to say " do n't do it " .
I would argue that we need more people involved in it not less .
Why should " the man " have everything his way ?
Sometimes it is necessary to step outside the law , precisely because it is the law .
If an authoritarian govt .
says you ca n't access a website , should you just say " yes sir " , or would you find a way to do it anyway ?
I would have thought that with all the passive-aggressive angst on here recently regarding Irans internet policy , the answer should be obvious .
" Hacking " drives security , and keeps the corporations and the govt .
awake. Information is control , why should the powers that be have all the control ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is the exception, not the rule, that a hacker becomes employed as a highly paid consultant.
How do you know ?Surely if you were any good at it you wouldn't get caught, so no criminal record.
It's only the ones who do get caught that have nothing to lose by exposing their past.
And of course they're going to say "don't do it".
I would argue that we need more people involved in it not less.
Why should "the man" have everything his way ?
Sometimes it is necessary to step outside the law, precisely because it is the law.
If an authoritarian govt.
says you can't access a website, should you just say "yes sir", or would you find a way to do it anyway ?
I would have thought that with all the passive-aggressive angst on here recently regarding Irans internet policy, the answer should be obvious.
"Hacking" drives security, and keeps the corporations and the govt.
awake. Information is control, why should the powers that be have all the control ?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495577</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495555</id>
	<title>Old adage.</title>
	<author>dov\_0</author>
	<datestamp>1246124400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>It takes one to know one. This works in all sorts of industries. The best teachers for example were often the worst behaved students.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It takes one to know one .
This works in all sorts of industries .
The best teachers for example were often the worst behaved students .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It takes one to know one.
This works in all sorts of industries.
The best teachers for example were often the worst behaved students.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28502713</id>
	<title>Re:Criminal record == no job</title>
	<author>alcourt</author>
	<datestamp>1246193760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most of the places I would work at have long standing policies that forbid the use of even gray hats in security.  It doesn't matter if they are employees or contractors or consultants.  If it is learned that you have a black hat record, you are out of security.</p><p>Seem harsh?  Maybe, but it sure beats the alternative of hiring yet another pretend reformer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most of the places I would work at have long standing policies that forbid the use of even gray hats in security .
It does n't matter if they are employees or contractors or consultants .
If it is learned that you have a black hat record , you are out of security.Seem harsh ?
Maybe , but it sure beats the alternative of hiring yet another pretend reformer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most of the places I would work at have long standing policies that forbid the use of even gray hats in security.
It doesn't matter if they are employees or contractors or consultants.
If it is learned that you have a black hat record, you are out of security.Seem harsh?
Maybe, but it sure beats the alternative of hiring yet another pretend reformer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495775</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495885</id>
	<title>Re:Crackers, not hackers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246127400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The widely-accepted definition of a hacker is different than your romanticized version of things.  That horse has left the barn - you can be disappointed all you want but trust me, you're only bothering yourself with it.</p><p>I bet you insist on GNU/Linux, too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The widely-accepted definition of a hacker is different than your romanticized version of things .
That horse has left the barn - you can be disappointed all you want but trust me , you 're only bothering yourself with it.I bet you insist on GNU/Linux , too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The widely-accepted definition of a hacker is different than your romanticized version of things.
That horse has left the barn - you can be disappointed all you want but trust me, you're only bothering yourself with it.I bet you insist on GNU/Linux, too.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495587</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495657</id>
	<title>Re:Old adage.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246125180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> It takes one to know one.</p></div> </blockquote><p>Yes you are, but what am I?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It takes one to know one .
Yes you are , but what am I ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext> It takes one to know one.
Yes you are, but what am I?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495555</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28498295</id>
	<title>Re:Crackers, not hackers</title>
	<author>endymion.nz</author>
	<datestamp>1246101420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>People used to say 'computer hacker' because a person was a hacker of computers. When the computer prefix was dropped is about the time that crackers started being called hackers. There are other types of hacking... if you've ever tried to make one good Toyota out of five dead Toyotas, or tried to make a microwave do something it was never designed for, you should understand what hacking is.</htmltext>
<tokenext>People used to say 'computer hacker ' because a person was a hacker of computers .
When the computer prefix was dropped is about the time that crackers started being called hackers .
There are other types of hacking... if you 've ever tried to make one good Toyota out of five dead Toyotas , or tried to make a microwave do something it was never designed for , you should understand what hacking is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People used to say 'computer hacker' because a person was a hacker of computers.
When the computer prefix was dropped is about the time that crackers started being called hackers.
There are other types of hacking... if you've ever tried to make one good Toyota out of five dead Toyotas, or tried to make a microwave do something it was never designed for, you should understand what hacking is.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495587</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495423</id>
	<title>Or maybe...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246123320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They just realize they can hide better as security researchers.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They just realize they can hide better as security researchers .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They just realize they can hide better as security researchers.
:)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28506983</id>
	<title>Re:Not in my experience</title>
	<author>bvankuik</author>
	<datestamp>1246183560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That dude had the ear of all management, everything he said went, they changed things that I've been recommending to them for months because he said so.</p></div><p>I am reading a lot of stuff here that is very recognizable for me as well. The post ends somewhat bitterly. Instead I'd advise you brush up on your social skills and ask your employer in a good man to man conversation why your advice did not hit the mark and what you can do the next time.

They might advise a couple of soft skills trainings and will probably be willing to pay for those. You'd probably also get something out of it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That dude had the ear of all management , everything he said went , they changed things that I 've been recommending to them for months because he said so.I am reading a lot of stuff here that is very recognizable for me as well .
The post ends somewhat bitterly .
Instead I 'd advise you brush up on your social skills and ask your employer in a good man to man conversation why your advice did not hit the mark and what you can do the next time .
They might advise a couple of soft skills trainings and will probably be willing to pay for those .
You 'd probably also get something out of it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That dude had the ear of all management, everything he said went, they changed things that I've been recommending to them for months because he said so.I am reading a lot of stuff here that is very recognizable for me as well.
The post ends somewhat bitterly.
Instead I'd advise you brush up on your social skills and ask your employer in a good man to man conversation why your advice did not hit the mark and what you can do the next time.
They might advise a couple of soft skills trainings and will probably be willing to pay for those.
You'd probably also get something out of it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495735</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495509</id>
	<title>Path from GOP leader to full-fledged homosexual</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246124040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some hackers are closeted nazis just like many in the GOP leadership are closeted homos.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some hackers are closeted nazis just like many in the GOP leadership are closeted homos .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some hackers are closeted nazis just like many in the GOP leadership are closeted homos.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495577</id>
	<title>Criminal record == no job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246124520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is the exception, not the rule, that a hacker becomes employed as a highly paid consultant. A lot of jobs require security checks, which you will fail if you have a criminal record. Some places have the flexibility to allow exceptions. Most don't. Even if they do you have to prove you offer something so unique and worthwhile that an exception should be made.</p><p>It does happen. Hackers do sometimes get jobs. People also win the lottery. Doesn't mean it's smart to play against the odds.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is the exception , not the rule , that a hacker becomes employed as a highly paid consultant .
A lot of jobs require security checks , which you will fail if you have a criminal record .
Some places have the flexibility to allow exceptions .
Most do n't .
Even if they do you have to prove you offer something so unique and worthwhile that an exception should be made.It does happen .
Hackers do sometimes get jobs .
People also win the lottery .
Does n't mean it 's smart to play against the odds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is the exception, not the rule, that a hacker becomes employed as a highly paid consultant.
A lot of jobs require security checks, which you will fail if you have a criminal record.
Some places have the flexibility to allow exceptions.
Most don't.
Even if they do you have to prove you offer something so unique and worthwhile that an exception should be made.It does happen.
Hackers do sometimes get jobs.
People also win the lottery.
Doesn't mean it's smart to play against the odds.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28496555</id>
	<title>Re:Sounds familiar</title>
	<author>sco08y</author>
	<datestamp>1246133160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>When I was a child I had to walk 20 miles to school everyday in a snow storm, through swamps and trying to avoid crocodiles.</p></div></blockquote><p>Yeah, I remember, when I was a child I actually had to walk to a library to borrow an actual book.</p><blockquote><div><p>Don't do what I've done, do what I say</p></div></blockquote><p><a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html" title="nizkor.org">Sounds familiar.</a> [nizkor.org]</p><p>Look, I'm not even saying that kids have it easy nowadays, far from it. I remember learning to program on a C-64. You could memorize all the important addresses. Your languages were BASIC and assembler. You had a grand total of 3 registers. You had no endian issues, no Unicode, nothing to install, nothing to configure. You just bought a subscription to Run magazine and started by copying the programs from it.</p><p>Things are different now, and I think it's better that it's harder and that the upcoming generation will adapt just as we did. All these guys are saying is that what made sense then doesn't make sense now, that much should be obvious, but kids are still idiots.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was a child I had to walk 20 miles to school everyday in a snow storm , through swamps and trying to avoid crocodiles.Yeah , I remember , when I was a child I actually had to walk to a library to borrow an actual book.Do n't do what I 've done , do what I saySounds familiar .
[ nizkor.org ] Look , I 'm not even saying that kids have it easy nowadays , far from it .
I remember learning to program on a C-64 .
You could memorize all the important addresses .
Your languages were BASIC and assembler .
You had a grand total of 3 registers .
You had no endian issues , no Unicode , nothing to install , nothing to configure .
You just bought a subscription to Run magazine and started by copying the programs from it.Things are different now , and I think it 's better that it 's harder and that the upcoming generation will adapt just as we did .
All these guys are saying is that what made sense then does n't make sense now , that much should be obvious , but kids are still idiots .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was a child I had to walk 20 miles to school everyday in a snow storm, through swamps and trying to avoid crocodiles.Yeah, I remember, when I was a child I actually had to walk to a library to borrow an actual book.Don't do what I've done, do what I saySounds familiar.
[nizkor.org]Look, I'm not even saying that kids have it easy nowadays, far from it.
I remember learning to program on a C-64.
You could memorize all the important addresses.
Your languages were BASIC and assembler.
You had a grand total of 3 registers.
You had no endian issues, no Unicode, nothing to install, nothing to configure.
You just bought a subscription to Run magazine and started by copying the programs from it.Things are different now, and I think it's better that it's harder and that the upcoming generation will adapt just as we did.
All these guys are saying is that what made sense then doesn't make sense now, that much should be obvious, but kids are still idiots.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495457</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28496785</id>
	<title>Re:Criminal record == no job</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1246134480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thank you, I got here late.</p><p>A criminal record is NOT a recommendation paper. Quite the opposite. These people got their jobs <i>despite</i> a record. Not <i>because</i>. A criminal record is, essentially, the proof that you made a mistake. Else you wouldn't have been caught. They are the icons of hacking, and that's what landed them jobs. DESPITE their records.</p><p>That's not to say that there are no "white hats" that never crossed the legal lines. It's easier now today, who could afford a mainframe server in the 70s to test its security? You can easily afford something that is used as a server on the internet these days. Hell, you can install the relevant software on your machine. Or use one of your old machines, it will do as a hack target.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thank you , I got here late.A criminal record is NOT a recommendation paper .
Quite the opposite .
These people got their jobs despite a record .
Not because .
A criminal record is , essentially , the proof that you made a mistake .
Else you would n't have been caught .
They are the icons of hacking , and that 's what landed them jobs .
DESPITE their records.That 's not to say that there are no " white hats " that never crossed the legal lines .
It 's easier now today , who could afford a mainframe server in the 70s to test its security ?
You can easily afford something that is used as a server on the internet these days .
Hell , you can install the relevant software on your machine .
Or use one of your old machines , it will do as a hack target .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thank you, I got here late.A criminal record is NOT a recommendation paper.
Quite the opposite.
These people got their jobs despite a record.
Not because.
A criminal record is, essentially, the proof that you made a mistake.
Else you wouldn't have been caught.
They are the icons of hacking, and that's what landed them jobs.
DESPITE their records.That's not to say that there are no "white hats" that never crossed the legal lines.
It's easier now today, who could afford a mainframe server in the 70s to test its security?
You can easily afford something that is used as a server on the internet these days.
Hell, you can install the relevant software on your machine.
Or use one of your old machines, it will do as a hack target.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495577</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28496725</id>
	<title>do7l</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246134240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><A HREF="http://goat.cx/" title="goat.cx" rel="nofollow">violated. In the My resignation inventing excuses that he documents BSD culminated in failure, its corpse FREEBSD USED To would you like to started work on</a> [goat.cx]</htmltext>
<tokenext>violated .
In the My resignation inventing excuses that he documents BSD culminated in failure , its corpse FREEBSD USED To would you like to started work on [ goat.cx ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>violated.
In the My resignation inventing excuses that he documents BSD culminated in failure, its corpse FREEBSD USED To would you like to started work on [goat.cx]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495735</id>
	<title>Not in my experience</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246125960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I worked at a company who shall remain anonymous. I worked there as their security consultant and was in charge of keeping the  systems secure. </p><p>
I noticed that their systems were insecure, I kept telling them that these things will get hacked, I kept telling them that they are wide open. Did they listen to me? No. They kept going on and on, I worked to patch as many holes as I can, but the system was insecure in itself (things like passwords stored in plain text on mysql databases etc...). Fixes I recommended were rejected by management because they would change things from how they were used to, or too expensive, or "but who would want to hack us" responses.
</p><p>
A few weeks ago our external servers get hacked (surprise surprise), and the hacker notifies the company. What do they do? They pay the guy 600 euros per domain (we have a lot of domains) to fix it for us. That dude had the ear of all management, everything he said went, they changed things that I've been recommending to them for months because he said so. And to finish it off, he earned more money in those two weeks working for this company than I did in the last 6 months, to make fixes I've been telling them to do since I got the job.</p><p>
F*ck it, in future I will just break into computers and then offer them a huge fee to fix them, It seems to pay more to do it that way. The company didn't call the police, just kept it as quiet as possible so word didn't get out.
</p><p>
Posting anonymously for obvious reasons.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I worked at a company who shall remain anonymous .
I worked there as their security consultant and was in charge of keeping the systems secure .
I noticed that their systems were insecure , I kept telling them that these things will get hacked , I kept telling them that they are wide open .
Did they listen to me ?
No. They kept going on and on , I worked to patch as many holes as I can , but the system was insecure in itself ( things like passwords stored in plain text on mysql databases etc... ) .
Fixes I recommended were rejected by management because they would change things from how they were used to , or too expensive , or " but who would want to hack us " responses .
A few weeks ago our external servers get hacked ( surprise surprise ) , and the hacker notifies the company .
What do they do ?
They pay the guy 600 euros per domain ( we have a lot of domains ) to fix it for us .
That dude had the ear of all management , everything he said went , they changed things that I 've been recommending to them for months because he said so .
And to finish it off , he earned more money in those two weeks working for this company than I did in the last 6 months , to make fixes I 've been telling them to do since I got the job .
F * ck it , in future I will just break into computers and then offer them a huge fee to fix them , It seems to pay more to do it that way .
The company did n't call the police , just kept it as quiet as possible so word did n't get out .
Posting anonymously for obvious reasons .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I worked at a company who shall remain anonymous.
I worked there as their security consultant and was in charge of keeping the  systems secure.
I noticed that their systems were insecure, I kept telling them that these things will get hacked, I kept telling them that they are wide open.
Did they listen to me?
No. They kept going on and on, I worked to patch as many holes as I can, but the system was insecure in itself (things like passwords stored in plain text on mysql databases etc...).
Fixes I recommended were rejected by management because they would change things from how they were used to, or too expensive, or "but who would want to hack us" responses.
A few weeks ago our external servers get hacked (surprise surprise), and the hacker notifies the company.
What do they do?
They pay the guy 600 euros per domain (we have a lot of domains) to fix it for us.
That dude had the ear of all management, everything he said went, they changed things that I've been recommending to them for months because he said so.
And to finish it off, he earned more money in those two weeks working for this company than I did in the last 6 months, to make fixes I've been telling them to do since I got the job.
F*ck it, in future I will just break into computers and then offer them a huge fee to fix them, It seems to pay more to do it that way.
The company didn't call the police, just kept it as quiet as possible so word didn't get out.
Posting anonymously for obvious reasons.
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28510313</id>
	<title>PMP</title>
	<author>itomato</author>
	<datestamp>1246214880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A Hacker with the proven ability to create and execute a project plan should be seriously employable.</p><p>Know what pieces overlap, understand how they impact the business, and what it takes to get from A to Z.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A Hacker with the proven ability to create and execute a project plan should be seriously employable.Know what pieces overlap , understand how they impact the business , and what it takes to get from A to Z .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A Hacker with the proven ability to create and execute a project plan should be seriously employable.Know what pieces overlap, understand how they impact the business, and what it takes to get from A to Z.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495905</id>
	<title>Re:Crackers, not hackers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246127640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sorry, but I think it's time to acknowledge that there are some "Wordsmith Wars" that have simply been lost.  Moreover, lost about 10-15 years ago.  The general public is not going to refer to "Linux" as "GNU/Linux"... not going to use licensing terms like "Libre"... and thinks of "cracker" as a silly racial slur for white people.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry , but I think it 's time to acknowledge that there are some " Wordsmith Wars " that have simply been lost .
Moreover , lost about 10-15 years ago .
The general public is not going to refer to " Linux " as " GNU/Linux " ... not going to use licensing terms like " Libre " ... and thinks of " cracker " as a silly racial slur for white people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry, but I think it's time to acknowledge that there are some "Wordsmith Wars" that have simply been lost.
Moreover, lost about 10-15 years ago.
The general public is not going to refer to "Linux" as "GNU/Linux"... not going to use licensing terms like "Libre"... and thinks of "cracker" as a silly racial slur for white people.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495587</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28497721</id>
	<title>(Cheap) Background checks don't catch everything</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246097100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Having been in security since the beginning of my IT career I have seen all kinds of companies.  Most SMBs don't do background checks or drug testing.  How many people with a hacker background (or any for that matter) are planning on working for a Fortune 100 company as a career goal?  As a VP friend of mine once put it, "If I wanted to go through background checks and drug testing I would have gone to work for the CIA or FBI." He refuses to work for any company that does either of those, in the belief that it's not necessary to know those things to hire a person who can do their job, and the fact that it doesn't enhance shareholder value.   It's OK to turn down a job on principal.  I can also say that having been on the dealing end of the background checks, most vendor companies out there are worthless and you won't get the whole picture about a candidate.  Most background checks only look at NCIC and not state or city/county level.  If your HR department is paying $50 per person you're only getting the Federal level.  If you want the whole picture you'll be paying about $1000-$2000 per candidate for city level screening if you check each and every city and county the candidate has ever lived in.  The same goes for drug testing.  The DOT accurate drug tests for commercial drivers cost anywhere from $150-$300.  The cheap ones cost about $25 for 5 different drugs and aren't that accurate.  I complained to someone in HR at a previous company I worked at about wasting the time and money for a drug test that was in all probability inaccurate.  I was told that the drug testing was mainly for marketing purposes so the company could say they were a drug free workplace and bid on government contracts.  HR had no interest in actually rooting out drug users, as they had no desire to actually find out for sure if anyone had a criminal record, hence the $50 background check.  Basically if you didn't smoke weed a few weeks before coming on board you were golden.  If you always got into bar fights or simply drive drunk all the time, the company wouldn't know about that either.</p><p>You can also be a security consultant without dealing with the equipment directly, which is what a lot of people are concerned with when it comes to consultants.  I haven't logged into a firewall or an IDS in 6 years, but I used to develop IDS software early on.  Security consulting for a lot of customers involves business process analysis mainly to determine if anything is broken.  If you're doing ISO 27001 or COBIT consulting you probably won't be handling any of the equipment, but performing audits and writing project plans for the customer to implement.    If a customer asks me to implement the recommendations I'll bounce them to a firm I trust and take a referral fee.  If you've ever sat through a security audit with a Big 4 company, they spend most of their time performing interviews with IT staff, they'll shoulder surf or look at screen shots for random items, then charge you a ton of money for not really verifying anything.  Most of them are CISA certified, but aren't technical which is really amusing.</p><p>There's enough work out there for everyone if you're willing to move to another city or travel for business, regardless of your background.  If you're really in bad shape you create your own company and approach clients as a vendor, not an individual.  LLC or Corporation filing fees are around $100 and I have yet to encounter anyone in the private sector who does background checks on firms performing work on premises.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Having been in security since the beginning of my IT career I have seen all kinds of companies .
Most SMBs do n't do background checks or drug testing .
How many people with a hacker background ( or any for that matter ) are planning on working for a Fortune 100 company as a career goal ?
As a VP friend of mine once put it , " If I wanted to go through background checks and drug testing I would have gone to work for the CIA or FBI .
" He refuses to work for any company that does either of those , in the belief that it 's not necessary to know those things to hire a person who can do their job , and the fact that it does n't enhance shareholder value .
It 's OK to turn down a job on principal .
I can also say that having been on the dealing end of the background checks , most vendor companies out there are worthless and you wo n't get the whole picture about a candidate .
Most background checks only look at NCIC and not state or city/county level .
If your HR department is paying $ 50 per person you 're only getting the Federal level .
If you want the whole picture you 'll be paying about $ 1000- $ 2000 per candidate for city level screening if you check each and every city and county the candidate has ever lived in .
The same goes for drug testing .
The DOT accurate drug tests for commercial drivers cost anywhere from $ 150- $ 300 .
The cheap ones cost about $ 25 for 5 different drugs and are n't that accurate .
I complained to someone in HR at a previous company I worked at about wasting the time and money for a drug test that was in all probability inaccurate .
I was told that the drug testing was mainly for marketing purposes so the company could say they were a drug free workplace and bid on government contracts .
HR had no interest in actually rooting out drug users , as they had no desire to actually find out for sure if anyone had a criminal record , hence the $ 50 background check .
Basically if you did n't smoke weed a few weeks before coming on board you were golden .
If you always got into bar fights or simply drive drunk all the time , the company would n't know about that either.You can also be a security consultant without dealing with the equipment directly , which is what a lot of people are concerned with when it comes to consultants .
I have n't logged into a firewall or an IDS in 6 years , but I used to develop IDS software early on .
Security consulting for a lot of customers involves business process analysis mainly to determine if anything is broken .
If you 're doing ISO 27001 or COBIT consulting you probably wo n't be handling any of the equipment , but performing audits and writing project plans for the customer to implement .
If a customer asks me to implement the recommendations I 'll bounce them to a firm I trust and take a referral fee .
If you 've ever sat through a security audit with a Big 4 company , they spend most of their time performing interviews with IT staff , they 'll shoulder surf or look at screen shots for random items , then charge you a ton of money for not really verifying anything .
Most of them are CISA certified , but are n't technical which is really amusing.There 's enough work out there for everyone if you 're willing to move to another city or travel for business , regardless of your background .
If you 're really in bad shape you create your own company and approach clients as a vendor , not an individual .
LLC or Corporation filing fees are around $ 100 and I have yet to encounter anyone in the private sector who does background checks on firms performing work on premises .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having been in security since the beginning of my IT career I have seen all kinds of companies.
Most SMBs don't do background checks or drug testing.
How many people with a hacker background (or any for that matter) are planning on working for a Fortune 100 company as a career goal?
As a VP friend of mine once put it, "If I wanted to go through background checks and drug testing I would have gone to work for the CIA or FBI.
" He refuses to work for any company that does either of those, in the belief that it's not necessary to know those things to hire a person who can do their job, and the fact that it doesn't enhance shareholder value.
It's OK to turn down a job on principal.
I can also say that having been on the dealing end of the background checks, most vendor companies out there are worthless and you won't get the whole picture about a candidate.
Most background checks only look at NCIC and not state or city/county level.
If your HR department is paying $50 per person you're only getting the Federal level.
If you want the whole picture you'll be paying about $1000-$2000 per candidate for city level screening if you check each and every city and county the candidate has ever lived in.
The same goes for drug testing.
The DOT accurate drug tests for commercial drivers cost anywhere from $150-$300.
The cheap ones cost about $25 for 5 different drugs and aren't that accurate.
I complained to someone in HR at a previous company I worked at about wasting the time and money for a drug test that was in all probability inaccurate.
I was told that the drug testing was mainly for marketing purposes so the company could say they were a drug free workplace and bid on government contracts.
HR had no interest in actually rooting out drug users, as they had no desire to actually find out for sure if anyone had a criminal record, hence the $50 background check.
Basically if you didn't smoke weed a few weeks before coming on board you were golden.
If you always got into bar fights or simply drive drunk all the time, the company wouldn't know about that either.You can also be a security consultant without dealing with the equipment directly, which is what a lot of people are concerned with when it comes to consultants.
I haven't logged into a firewall or an IDS in 6 years, but I used to develop IDS software early on.
Security consulting for a lot of customers involves business process analysis mainly to determine if anything is broken.
If you're doing ISO 27001 or COBIT consulting you probably won't be handling any of the equipment, but performing audits and writing project plans for the customer to implement.
If a customer asks me to implement the recommendations I'll bounce them to a firm I trust and take a referral fee.
If you've ever sat through a security audit with a Big 4 company, they spend most of their time performing interviews with IT staff, they'll shoulder surf or look at screen shots for random items, then charge you a ton of money for not really verifying anything.
Most of them are CISA certified, but aren't technical which is really amusing.There's enough work out there for everyone if you're willing to move to another city or travel for business, regardless of your background.
If you're really in bad shape you create your own company and approach clients as a vendor, not an individual.
LLC or Corporation filing fees are around $100 and I have yet to encounter anyone in the private sector who does background checks on firms performing work on premises.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28496199</id>
	<title>Re:Old adage.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246130520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If by "worst behaved" you simply mean the ones that would challenge authority and "color outside the lines," then sure - those kinds of "misbehaviors" are pretty common among people who are really good at their job. That seems to be a pretty milquetoast version of "worst behaved" though.</p><p>As someone who went to Chicago Public Schools, I can say that the "worst behaved" students are the ones who were unable to handle any kind of structured environment, were disruptive and violent towards other students, were often high if they bothered to show up for classes, and generally couldn't handle even remedial work. The few of these kids that eventually straightened themselves out might make good mentors or counselors at programs to help at-risk children, but generally wouldn't be what I'd call good teachers because they're usually lacking the academic accomplishment that really good teachers must have.</p><p>On the issue of taking one to know one - I think it's possible to be a good security expert without being a convicted felon. Given the choice between hiring someone who is very good but a convicted felon vs. someone who is very good and who has the moral compass necessary to avoid committing acts that are criminal, I'll take the latter any time. There are *millions* of people the world over who do computer security - most of them without criminal records - it's not exactly like it's some kind of arcane art or a skillset so hard to come by that one must hire a (hopefully former) black-hat.</p><p>My guess is some of these guys are being hired by organizations who want to use their felony record as some kind of street cred - "Our security is the best; we've got one of the worst of the hackers in charge of it!" etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If by " worst behaved " you simply mean the ones that would challenge authority and " color outside the lines , " then sure - those kinds of " misbehaviors " are pretty common among people who are really good at their job .
That seems to be a pretty milquetoast version of " worst behaved " though.As someone who went to Chicago Public Schools , I can say that the " worst behaved " students are the ones who were unable to handle any kind of structured environment , were disruptive and violent towards other students , were often high if they bothered to show up for classes , and generally could n't handle even remedial work .
The few of these kids that eventually straightened themselves out might make good mentors or counselors at programs to help at-risk children , but generally would n't be what I 'd call good teachers because they 're usually lacking the academic accomplishment that really good teachers must have.On the issue of taking one to know one - I think it 's possible to be a good security expert without being a convicted felon .
Given the choice between hiring someone who is very good but a convicted felon vs. someone who is very good and who has the moral compass necessary to avoid committing acts that are criminal , I 'll take the latter any time .
There are * millions * of people the world over who do computer security - most of them without criminal records - it 's not exactly like it 's some kind of arcane art or a skillset so hard to come by that one must hire a ( hopefully former ) black-hat.My guess is some of these guys are being hired by organizations who want to use their felony record as some kind of street cred - " Our security is the best ; we 've got one of the worst of the hackers in charge of it !
" etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If by "worst behaved" you simply mean the ones that would challenge authority and "color outside the lines," then sure - those kinds of "misbehaviors" are pretty common among people who are really good at their job.
That seems to be a pretty milquetoast version of "worst behaved" though.As someone who went to Chicago Public Schools, I can say that the "worst behaved" students are the ones who were unable to handle any kind of structured environment, were disruptive and violent towards other students, were often high if they bothered to show up for classes, and generally couldn't handle even remedial work.
The few of these kids that eventually straightened themselves out might make good mentors or counselors at programs to help at-risk children, but generally wouldn't be what I'd call good teachers because they're usually lacking the academic accomplishment that really good teachers must have.On the issue of taking one to know one - I think it's possible to be a good security expert without being a convicted felon.
Given the choice between hiring someone who is very good but a convicted felon vs. someone who is very good and who has the moral compass necessary to avoid committing acts that are criminal, I'll take the latter any time.
There are *millions* of people the world over who do computer security - most of them without criminal records - it's not exactly like it's some kind of arcane art or a skillset so hard to come by that one must hire a (hopefully former) black-hat.My guess is some of these guys are being hired by organizations who want to use their felony record as some kind of street cred - "Our security is the best; we've got one of the worst of the hackers in charge of it!
" etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495555</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495435</id>
	<title>Terrist's</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246123440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Kill them all and let God choose which backups to restore.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Kill them all and let God choose which backups to restore .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Kill them all and let God choose which backups to restore.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28496307</id>
	<title>Re:Criminal record == no job</title>
	<author>tukang</author>
	<datestamp>1246131420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>It is the exception, not the rule, that a hacker becomes employed as a highly paid consultant. A lot of jobs require security checks, which you will fail if you have a criminal record.</i>

<p>Hacker !imply Criminal</p><p>Yes, some hackers are criminals but not all are - and *a lot* of the ones who aren't are in fact highly paid consultants. Please stop spreading the misperception that hacking is criminal or unethical.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is the exception , not the rule , that a hacker becomes employed as a highly paid consultant .
A lot of jobs require security checks , which you will fail if you have a criminal record .
Hacker ! imply CriminalYes , some hackers are criminals but not all are - and * a lot * of the ones who are n't are in fact highly paid consultants .
Please stop spreading the misperception that hacking is criminal or unethical .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is the exception, not the rule, that a hacker becomes employed as a highly paid consultant.
A lot of jobs require security checks, which you will fail if you have a criminal record.
Hacker !imply CriminalYes, some hackers are criminals but not all are - and *a lot* of the ones who aren't are in fact highly paid consultants.
Please stop spreading the misperception that hacking is criminal or unethical.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495577</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495565</id>
	<title>Put Kevin Back!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246124460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Will someone please put kevin back in jail!?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Will someone please put kevin back in jail !
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Will someone please put kevin back in jail!
?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_27_160232.28495969</id>
	<title>Me don't like</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246128240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't like these articles on hackers becoming security consultants. Obviously it has happened in the past - and the story itself covers well known examples, but doing information security for private corporation is so much, much, much much much more than pen testing and other skills typical crackers are good at. In practice, the vast majority of security professionals aren't ex-hackers, and that's a damn good thing.</p><p>Maybe it's because I'm actually working in the field, but I really don't like how the medias keep bringing back ex-hackers and present them as some kinds of security gurus, or worst, geek super stars. I don't think it is mature, and I don't think it is healthy. These individuals are criminals, and many have caused thousands if not millions of damages, or forced other people to spend countless hours to fix their mess. No matter how you look at this, this is not cool.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't like these articles on hackers becoming security consultants .
Obviously it has happened in the past - and the story itself covers well known examples , but doing information security for private corporation is so much , much , much much much more than pen testing and other skills typical crackers are good at .
In practice , the vast majority of security professionals are n't ex-hackers , and that 's a damn good thing.Maybe it 's because I 'm actually working in the field , but I really do n't like how the medias keep bringing back ex-hackers and present them as some kinds of security gurus , or worst , geek super stars .
I do n't think it is mature , and I do n't think it is healthy .
These individuals are criminals , and many have caused thousands if not millions of damages , or forced other people to spend countless hours to fix their mess .
No matter how you look at this , this is not cool .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't like these articles on hackers becoming security consultants.
Obviously it has happened in the past - and the story itself covers well known examples, but doing information security for private corporation is so much, much, much much much more than pen testing and other skills typical crackers are good at.
In practice, the vast majority of security professionals aren't ex-hackers, and that's a damn good thing.Maybe it's because I'm actually working in the field, but I really don't like how the medias keep bringing back ex-hackers and present them as some kinds of security gurus, or worst, geek super stars.
I don't think it is mature, and I don't think it is healthy.
These individuals are criminals, and many have caused thousands if not millions of damages, or forced other people to spend countless hours to fix their mess.
No matter how you look at this, this is not cool.</sentencetext>
</comment>
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