<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_05_28_1826244</id>
	<title>Lightweight C++ Library For SVG On Windows?</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1243536780000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>redblue writes <i>"I would like to display vector graphics in my Windows C++ programs with minimal system requirements. Some of the possibilities are: 1. Enhanced Metafile Format format/EMF+, 2. Flash/SWG, 3. Silverlight/XAML, 4. SVG. The non-open proprietary nature of #2 &amp; #3 make them unattractive. Since EMF+ is not amenable to easy editing, it leaves SVG as the only format worth pursuing. The trouble is that the major vendors have a lock on the market with their proprietary formats; leaving SVG high and dry with no easy native OS support. At least not on Windows. From what I could learn on the intertubes, Cairo is the best, if not only, reasonable system that may enable compiled SVG support. Unfortunately, AFAIK, it comes with a price tag of &gt;2MB overhead and the C++ bindings are not straightforward."</i> Read on for the rest of redblue's question; can you improve on his home-brewed solution?</htmltext>
<tokenext>redblue writes " I would like to display vector graphics in my Windows C + + programs with minimal system requirements .
Some of the possibilities are : 1 .
Enhanced Metafile Format format/EMF + , 2 .
Flash/SWG , 3 .
Silverlight/XAML , 4 .
SVG. The non-open proprietary nature of # 2 &amp; # 3 make them unattractive .
Since EMF + is not amenable to easy editing , it leaves SVG as the only format worth pursuing .
The trouble is that the major vendors have a lock on the market with their proprietary formats ; leaving SVG high and dry with no easy native OS support .
At least not on Windows .
From what I could learn on the intertubes , Cairo is the best , if not only , reasonable system that may enable compiled SVG support .
Unfortunately , AFAIK , it comes with a price tag of &gt; 2MB overhead and the C + + bindings are not straightforward .
" Read on for the rest of redblue 's question ; can you improve on his home-brewed solution ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>redblue writes "I would like to display vector graphics in my Windows C++ programs with minimal system requirements.
Some of the possibilities are: 1.
Enhanced Metafile Format format/EMF+, 2.
Flash/SWG, 3.
Silverlight/XAML, 4.
SVG. The non-open proprietary nature of #2 &amp; #3 make them unattractive.
Since EMF+ is not amenable to easy editing, it leaves SVG as the only format worth pursuing.
The trouble is that the major vendors have a lock on the market with their proprietary formats; leaving SVG high and dry with no easy native OS support.
At least not on Windows.
From what I could learn on the intertubes, Cairo is the best, if not only, reasonable system that may enable compiled SVG support.
Unfortunately, AFAIK, it comes with a price tag of &gt;2MB overhead and the C++ bindings are not straightforward.
" Read on for the rest of redblue's question; can you improve on his home-brewed solution?</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28130729</id>
	<title>Re:TWO WHOLE MEGABYTES?</title>
	<author>BikeHelmet</author>
	<datestamp>1243507500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Even phones have plenty of RAM. What they lack is CPU power, so any sort of acceleration he can take advantage of will help.</p><p>And acceleration usually means even more memory usage.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Even phones have plenty of RAM .
What they lack is CPU power , so any sort of acceleration he can take advantage of will help.And acceleration usually means even more memory usage .
: P</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even phones have plenty of RAM.
What they lack is CPU power, so any sort of acceleration he can take advantage of will help.And acceleration usually means even more memory usage.
:P</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128441</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28129445</id>
	<title>Cairo Graphics Librar</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243502280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>You might want to look at Cairo.  It has a Win32 backend as well as many other platforms.  It is written in C and has bindings for C++ and lots of other languages as well.

<a href="http://cairographics.org/" title="cairographics.org" rel="nofollow">http://cairographics.org/</a> [cairographics.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>You might want to look at Cairo .
It has a Win32 backend as well as many other platforms .
It is written in C and has bindings for C + + and lots of other languages as well .
http : //cairographics.org/ [ cairographics.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You might want to look at Cairo.
It has a Win32 backend as well as many other platforms.
It is written in C and has bindings for C++ and lots of other languages as well.
http://cairographics.org/ [cairographics.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128813</id>
	<title>Re:Inkscape?</title>
	<author>SupplyMission</author>
	<datestamp>1243543320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Are you out of your mind?
</p><p>The overhead in Inkscape will surely be greater than the 2MB required for Cairo (which for some reason the OP finds unacceptable). Furthermore, Inkscape, like other similar applications, probably stores its graphics in an internal data structure. The SVG reading and writing are only a front-end for constructing and translating the internal data structure. The code that draws the image will be using the internal data structure, not actual SVG data. All of these things coupled together will almost certainly result in a multi-megabyte overhead.
</p><p>Furthermore, in addition to the multi-megabyte overhead, but there will be the [probably not insignificant] time and effort required to learn the Inkscape architecture. Then he will need to find and extract the relevant parts of code, so that they can be linked to his C++ program.
</p><p>In short, I'm afraid that "leveraging" Inkscape is not a very feasible idea at all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Are you out of your mind ?
The overhead in Inkscape will surely be greater than the 2MB required for Cairo ( which for some reason the OP finds unacceptable ) .
Furthermore , Inkscape , like other similar applications , probably stores its graphics in an internal data structure .
The SVG reading and writing are only a front-end for constructing and translating the internal data structure .
The code that draws the image will be using the internal data structure , not actual SVG data .
All of these things coupled together will almost certainly result in a multi-megabyte overhead .
Furthermore , in addition to the multi-megabyte overhead , but there will be the [ probably not insignificant ] time and effort required to learn the Inkscape architecture .
Then he will need to find and extract the relevant parts of code , so that they can be linked to his C + + program .
In short , I 'm afraid that " leveraging " Inkscape is not a very feasible idea at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are you out of your mind?
The overhead in Inkscape will surely be greater than the 2MB required for Cairo (which for some reason the OP finds unacceptable).
Furthermore, Inkscape, like other similar applications, probably stores its graphics in an internal data structure.
The SVG reading and writing are only a front-end for constructing and translating the internal data structure.
The code that draws the image will be using the internal data structure, not actual SVG data.
All of these things coupled together will almost certainly result in a multi-megabyte overhead.
Furthermore, in addition to the multi-megabyte overhead, but there will be the [probably not insignificant] time and effort required to learn the Inkscape architecture.
Then he will need to find and extract the relevant parts of code, so that they can be linked to his C++ program.
In short, I'm afraid that "leveraging" Inkscape is not a very feasible idea at all.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127861</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128361</id>
	<title>Re:Webkit?</title>
	<author>Carewolf</author>
	<datestamp>1243542060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Pulling QtWebkit in is not exactly light weight. But Qt actually has another SVG rendered that implements the SVG tiny standard. Using QtSvg is still several megabytes of Qt libraries though, so except for the nice C++ interface, not the solution for the original question.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Pulling QtWebkit in is not exactly light weight .
But Qt actually has another SVG rendered that implements the SVG tiny standard .
Using QtSvg is still several megabytes of Qt libraries though , so except for the nice C + + interface , not the solution for the original question .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pulling QtWebkit in is not exactly light weight.
But Qt actually has another SVG rendered that implements the SVG tiny standard.
Using QtSvg is still several megabytes of Qt libraries though, so except for the nice C++ interface, not the solution for the original question.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127915</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28130475</id>
	<title>Dial-up is still around</title>
	<author>tepples</author>
	<datestamp>1243506180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>2 megabytes of overhead? It ain't 1988 anymore, 2MB barely even registers these days.</p></div><p>A lot of people outside metropolitan areas still can't get an Internet connection faster than 0.05 Mbps.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>2 megabytes of overhead ?
It ai n't 1988 anymore , 2MB barely even registers these days.A lot of people outside metropolitan areas still ca n't get an Internet connection faster than 0.05 Mbps .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>2 megabytes of overhead?
It ain't 1988 anymore, 2MB barely even registers these days.A lot of people outside metropolitan areas still can't get an Internet connection faster than 0.05 Mbps.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128205</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28131007</id>
	<title>Re:TWO WHOLE MEGABYTES?</title>
	<author>SwabTheDeck</author>
	<datestamp>1243508700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Yeah, 2 whole megabytes may be too much. Remember there are *vastly* more small/dumb computing devices out there than the big-old desktop PC. So, maybe he's programming on a phone platform or some such and making a sincere effort to make something different.</p></div><p>
Except we know he's not programming for something other than a "big-old desktop PC" because the title of the post is "Lightweight C++ Library for SVG On <b>Windows</b>?"  Even for the crappiest/oldest Windows systems still in use, 2 MB is comically small.  I I actually thought that spec was some sort of typo, but I guess not!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , 2 whole megabytes may be too much .
Remember there are * vastly * more small/dumb computing devices out there than the big-old desktop PC .
So , maybe he 's programming on a phone platform or some such and making a sincere effort to make something different .
Except we know he 's not programming for something other than a " big-old desktop PC " because the title of the post is " Lightweight C + + Library for SVG On Windows ?
" Even for the crappiest/oldest Windows systems still in use , 2 MB is comically small .
I I actually thought that spec was some sort of typo , but I guess not !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, 2 whole megabytes may be too much.
Remember there are *vastly* more small/dumb computing devices out there than the big-old desktop PC.
So, maybe he's programming on a phone platform or some such and making a sincere effort to make something different.
Except we know he's not programming for something other than a "big-old desktop PC" because the title of the post is "Lightweight C++ Library for SVG On Windows?
"  Even for the crappiest/oldest Windows systems still in use, 2 MB is comically small.
I I actually thought that spec was some sort of typo, but I guess not!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128441</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28135819</id>
	<title>Re:Antigrain rules</title>
	<author>redblue</author>
	<datestamp>1243630320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I looked at AGG brief. No doubt a work of a person more qualified and talented than yours truly. He has even implemented an SVG renderer.</p><p>Unfortunately, it suffers from three problems:<br>1. Even though the AGG renderer is superior visually to GDI+, it is extra baggage in file size and the visual differences not great enough to justify that difference.<br>2. Inability to use hardware acceleration that GDI+ gives.<br>3. The SVG processor is woefully inadequate, even less than my humble efforts. It really only highlight AGG's superior graphics capabilities for certain rendering constructs but ignores the rest.</p><p>I may mention the GPL requirement in the latest version is troublesome, but that is not completely fatal. Perhaps I am wrong and should give it another look. I'd be happy if someone can point to an adequate AGG based SVG rendering engine that comes in under 200K.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I looked at AGG brief .
No doubt a work of a person more qualified and talented than yours truly .
He has even implemented an SVG renderer.Unfortunately , it suffers from three problems : 1 .
Even though the AGG renderer is superior visually to GDI + , it is extra baggage in file size and the visual differences not great enough to justify that difference.2 .
Inability to use hardware acceleration that GDI + gives.3 .
The SVG processor is woefully inadequate , even less than my humble efforts .
It really only highlight AGG 's superior graphics capabilities for certain rendering constructs but ignores the rest.I may mention the GPL requirement in the latest version is troublesome , but that is not completely fatal .
Perhaps I am wrong and should give it another look .
I 'd be happy if someone can point to an adequate AGG based SVG rendering engine that comes in under 200K .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I looked at AGG brief.
No doubt a work of a person more qualified and talented than yours truly.
He has even implemented an SVG renderer.Unfortunately, it suffers from three problems:1.
Even though the AGG renderer is superior visually to GDI+, it is extra baggage in file size and the visual differences not great enough to justify that difference.2.
Inability to use hardware acceleration that GDI+ gives.3.
The SVG processor is woefully inadequate, even less than my humble efforts.
It really only highlight AGG's superior graphics capabilities for certain rendering constructs but ignores the rest.I may mention the GPL requirement in the latest version is troublesome, but that is not completely fatal.
Perhaps I am wrong and should give it another look.
I'd be happy if someone can point to an adequate AGG based SVG rendering engine that comes in under 200K.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128939</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28130433</id>
	<title>There is Windows CE, you know</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243506060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The story mentions WINDOWS</p></div><p>Perhaps the game for Windows is merely a prototype of something eventually intended to run on Windows Mobile or the like.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The story mentions WINDOWSPerhaps the game for Windows is merely a prototype of something eventually intended to run on Windows Mobile or the like .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The story mentions WINDOWSPerhaps the game for Windows is merely a prototype of something eventually intended to run on Windows Mobile or the like.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28129025</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28136353</id>
	<title>Re:The 2M requirement</title>
	<author>ADT7</author>
	<datestamp>1243594080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How much performance do you really need for solitaire though?</p><p>I'm all for cutting things down in size, but eventually you reach the point of diminishing returns.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How much performance do you really need for solitaire though ? I 'm all for cutting things down in size , but eventually you reach the point of diminishing returns .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How much performance do you really need for solitaire though?I'm all for cutting things down in size, but eventually you reach the point of diminishing returns.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28135151</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28135921</id>
	<title>Re:C#.NET vector graphics library?</title>
	<author>redblue</author>
	<datestamp>1243588320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Probably because Silverlight/XAML is the correct answer if you are doing any<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.Net work. Just a no brainer if you are an ISV. SVG start looking superfluous.<br>It is also fairly easy to take an unmanaged C++ SVG engine and put CLR bindings for it. But a world of pain vice versa.</p><p>Silverlight is an obvious long term strategy to extinguish SVG and supplant it with XAML. Same as they did to OpenGL with DirectX. Or tried to.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Probably because Silverlight/XAML is the correct answer if you are doing any .Net work .
Just a no brainer if you are an ISV .
SVG start looking superfluous.It is also fairly easy to take an unmanaged C + + SVG engine and put CLR bindings for it .
But a world of pain vice versa.Silverlight is an obvious long term strategy to extinguish SVG and supplant it with XAML .
Same as they did to OpenGL with DirectX .
Or tried to .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Probably because Silverlight/XAML is the correct answer if you are doing any .Net work.
Just a no brainer if you are an ISV.
SVG start looking superfluous.It is also fairly easy to take an unmanaged C++ SVG engine and put CLR bindings for it.
But a world of pain vice versa.Silverlight is an obvious long term strategy to extinguish SVG and supplant it with XAML.
Same as they did to OpenGL with DirectX.
Or tried to.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28133317</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28140859</id>
	<title>Re:Webkit?</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1243622340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Webkit is not the best bet for anything SVG related, its SVG support is absolutely horrid, as is Gecko's.  It works for primative shapes, but move anywhere beyond that and they both failure to be useful.  Scripting in webkit?  Have fun.  Filters?  Yea right.  Text alignment, whats that?  If you want nothing more than to draw single color polygons, maybe with some borders you'll probably be okay, but even going so far as to add rounded corners to a rectangle and you've already ventured off of what Webkit can handle properly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Webkit is not the best bet for anything SVG related , its SVG support is absolutely horrid , as is Gecko 's .
It works for primative shapes , but move anywhere beyond that and they both failure to be useful .
Scripting in webkit ?
Have fun .
Filters ? Yea right .
Text alignment , whats that ?
If you want nothing more than to draw single color polygons , maybe with some borders you 'll probably be okay , but even going so far as to add rounded corners to a rectangle and you 've already ventured off of what Webkit can handle properly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Webkit is not the best bet for anything SVG related, its SVG support is absolutely horrid, as is Gecko's.
It works for primative shapes, but move anywhere beyond that and they both failure to be useful.
Scripting in webkit?
Have fun.
Filters?  Yea right.
Text alignment, whats that?
If you want nothing more than to draw single color polygons, maybe with some borders you'll probably be okay, but even going so far as to add rounded corners to a rectangle and you've already ventured off of what Webkit can handle properly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127915</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28129419</id>
	<title>Re:TWO WHOLE MEGABYTES?</title>
	<author>Blakey Rat</author>
	<datestamp>1243502160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Good thought, but the summary specifically says he's coding Windows C++ programs. In which case, 2MB is such a drop in the bucket it doesn't matter.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Good thought , but the summary specifically says he 's coding Windows C + + programs .
In which case , 2MB is such a drop in the bucket it does n't matter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good thought, but the summary specifically says he's coding Windows C++ programs.
In which case, 2MB is such a drop in the bucket it doesn't matter.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128441</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128467</id>
	<title>Other Formats</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243542360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While on the subject, I would like to ask what other open formats there are for vector graphics. I'm especially interested in efficient formats (avoiding the overhead of XML) and in formats that do more than just represent images (e.g. that allow animation and/or scripting).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While on the subject , I would like to ask what other open formats there are for vector graphics .
I 'm especially interested in efficient formats ( avoiding the overhead of XML ) and in formats that do more than just represent images ( e.g .
that allow animation and/or scripting ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While on the subject, I would like to ask what other open formats there are for vector graphics.
I'm especially interested in efficient formats (avoiding the overhead of XML) and in formats that do more than just represent images (e.g.
that allow animation and/or scripting).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128643</id>
	<title>Re:"The non-open and proprietary..." blah blah</title>
	<author>Beezlebub33</author>
	<datestamp>1243542780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>We're using <a href="http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/batik/" title="apache.org">Batik</a> [apache.org] and it's great.  It's real, working, (mostly) complete, and multi-platform.  Does it cover absolutely everything?  No, it doesn't (see their status page), but it has done everything that we want it to do.</htmltext>
<tokenext>We 're using Batik [ apache.org ] and it 's great .
It 's real , working , ( mostly ) complete , and multi-platform .
Does it cover absolutely everything ?
No , it does n't ( see their status page ) , but it has done everything that we want it to do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We're using Batik [apache.org] and it's great.
It's real, working, (mostly) complete, and multi-platform.
Does it cover absolutely everything?
No, it doesn't (see their status page), but it has done everything that we want it to do.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127935</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127935</id>
	<title>"The non-open and proprietary..."  blah blah</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243540980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's just ideological drivel.  The point is, SVG is a " standard " with a nice w3c.org - hosted spec and a nice diversified, academy-industry panel of contributors, but the fact remains, that in the 10 years since it became a standard, nobody really cares.  Even browsers that support it officially only support subsets of it.  The pragmatic reality is that it's a standard only in name, not in fact.  If you want something with a clean, complete, consistent documentation describing a real, working, complete, multi-platform implementation, then what you call " proprietary" solutions are actually the way to go.  Read the actual license terms for them and you'll see there's actually NOTHING that they prevent you to do, that you'll likely to have any interest in doing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's just ideological drivel .
The point is , SVG is a " standard " with a nice w3c.org - hosted spec and a nice diversified , academy-industry panel of contributors , but the fact remains , that in the 10 years since it became a standard , nobody really cares .
Even browsers that support it officially only support subsets of it .
The pragmatic reality is that it 's a standard only in name , not in fact .
If you want something with a clean , complete , consistent documentation describing a real , working , complete , multi-platform implementation , then what you call " proprietary " solutions are actually the way to go .
Read the actual license terms for them and you 'll see there 's actually NOTHING that they prevent you to do , that you 'll likely to have any interest in doing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's just ideological drivel.
The point is, SVG is a " standard " with a nice w3c.org - hosted spec and a nice diversified, academy-industry panel of contributors, but the fact remains, that in the 10 years since it became a standard, nobody really cares.
Even browsers that support it officially only support subsets of it.
The pragmatic reality is that it's a standard only in name, not in fact.
If you want something with a clean, complete, consistent documentation describing a real, working, complete, multi-platform implementation, then what you call " proprietary" solutions are actually the way to go.
Read the actual license terms for them and you'll see there's actually NOTHING that they prevent you to do, that you'll likely to have any interest in doing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28130695</id>
	<title>Re:"The non-open and proprietary..." blah blah</title>
	<author>eggnoglatte</author>
	<datestamp>1243507260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr></p><div class="quote"><p>...Even browsers that support it officially only support subsets of it.</p> </div><p>Exactly. The root cause is that "lightweight" and "SVG" are mutually exclusive. SVG is an incredibly complex standard, and implementing it to spec is going to take incredibly complex code.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>...Even browsers that support it officially only support subsets of it .
Exactly. The root cause is that " lightweight " and " SVG " are mutually exclusive .
SVG is an incredibly complex standard , and implementing it to spec is going to take incredibly complex code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> ...Even browsers that support it officially only support subsets of it.
Exactly. The root cause is that "lightweight" and "SVG" are mutually exclusive.
SVG is an incredibly complex standard, and implementing it to spec is going to take incredibly complex code.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127935</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128093</id>
	<title>I've been thinking...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243541400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>..about ripping the V8 and Skia engines from Chrome and making a standalone vector graphics system.  Skia is light by design.  V8 is fast and easy to embed by design.  It's all C++ from the ground up.  Implement the SVG interpreter in Javascript.  Provide a JSON based alternative for the XML haters.  Merge ongoing improvements from Chrome et al.</p><p>Just need a year of funding...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>..about ripping the V8 and Skia engines from Chrome and making a standalone vector graphics system .
Skia is light by design .
V8 is fast and easy to embed by design .
It 's all C + + from the ground up .
Implement the SVG interpreter in Javascript .
Provide a JSON based alternative for the XML haters .
Merge ongoing improvements from Chrome et al.Just need a year of funding.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>..about ripping the V8 and Skia engines from Chrome and making a standalone vector graphics system.
Skia is light by design.
V8 is fast and easy to embed by design.
It's all C++ from the ground up.
Implement the SVG interpreter in Javascript.
Provide a JSON based alternative for the XML haters.
Merge ongoing improvements from Chrome et al.Just need a year of funding...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28135185</id>
	<title>Re:Trim cairo?</title>
	<author>redblue</author>
	<datestamp>1243536180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's just a side effect of using David Bellot's SVG cards which only uses basic paint effects.</p><p>The intent is to be able to use all the fancy effects if they are present in an SVG file and supportable by the rendering hardware. Thus full SVG compliance is always a worthy goal, long term.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's just a side effect of using David Bellot 's SVG cards which only uses basic paint effects.The intent is to be able to use all the fancy effects if they are present in an SVG file and supportable by the rendering hardware .
Thus full SVG compliance is always a worthy goal , long term .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's just a side effect of using David Bellot's SVG cards which only uses basic paint effects.The intent is to be able to use all the fancy effects if they are present in an SVG file and supportable by the rendering hardware.
Thus full SVG compliance is always a worthy goal, long term.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127887</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128471</id>
	<title>Re:"The non-open and proprietary..." blah blah</title>
	<author>theskipper</author>
	<datestamp>1243542360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Read the actual license terms for them and you'll see there's actually NOTHING that they prevent you to do, that you'll likely to have any interest in doing.</i></p><p>Maybe not but I'd argue it's a tad naive.  Out here in the real world, there's nothing stopping a for-profit company from changing terms on their proprietary format license.  After all, it's theirs.  If they can make a profit by altering the terms in the future then why shouldn't they?</p><p>And proprietary formats work surprisingly well.  Witness<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.doc as well as AutoDesk's venerable<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.dwg format.  A truly obfuscated mess and they're still number one because of it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Read the actual license terms for them and you 'll see there 's actually NOTHING that they prevent you to do , that you 'll likely to have any interest in doing.Maybe not but I 'd argue it 's a tad naive .
Out here in the real world , there 's nothing stopping a for-profit company from changing terms on their proprietary format license .
After all , it 's theirs .
If they can make a profit by altering the terms in the future then why should n't they ? And proprietary formats work surprisingly well .
Witness .doc as well as AutoDesk 's venerable .dwg format .
A truly obfuscated mess and they 're still number one because of it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Read the actual license terms for them and you'll see there's actually NOTHING that they prevent you to do, that you'll likely to have any interest in doing.Maybe not but I'd argue it's a tad naive.
Out here in the real world, there's nothing stopping a for-profit company from changing terms on their proprietary format license.
After all, it's theirs.
If they can make a profit by altering the terms in the future then why shouldn't they?And proprietary formats work surprisingly well.
Witness .doc as well as AutoDesk's venerable .dwg format.
A truly obfuscated mess and they're still number one because of it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127935</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28129025</id>
	<title>The story mentions WINDOWS, you braindead simp</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243544040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>RTFA.  And wipe up that drool, you're not in high school any more.</p><p>Christ, Slashdotters just keep getting dumber.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>RTFA .
And wipe up that drool , you 're not in high school any more.Christ , Slashdotters just keep getting dumber .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>RTFA.
And wipe up that drool, you're not in high school any more.Christ, Slashdotters just keep getting dumber.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128441</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28134283</id>
	<title>Re:"The non-open and proprietary..." blah blah</title>
	<author>Shados</author>
	<datestamp>1243527600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The point is, SVG is a " standard " with a nice w3c.org</p></div> </blockquote><p>You've never tried implementing a w3c spec I think. HELLOOOOO SWISS CHEEZE!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The point is , SVG is a " standard " with a nice w3c.org You 've never tried implementing a w3c spec I think .
HELLOOOOO SWISS CHEEZE !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The point is, SVG is a " standard " with a nice w3c.org You've never tried implementing a w3c spec I think.
HELLOOOOO SWISS CHEEZE!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127935</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127861</id>
	<title>Inkscape?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243540800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I haven't looked at the code, but is there something that you can leverage from <a href="http://inkscape.org/" title="inkscape.org">Inkscape</a> [inkscape.org]?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have n't looked at the code , but is there something that you can leverage from Inkscape [ inkscape.org ] ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I haven't looked at the code, but is there something that you can leverage from Inkscape [inkscape.org]?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28129679</id>
	<title>What about CGM aka ISO 8632:1992</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243503060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>CGM exists since about 1985, is standardized by ISO and supported by many applications (Corel, AI, Freehand,...). Binary and ascii representations exist.</p><p>Might be worth a look.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>CGM exists since about 1985 , is standardized by ISO and supported by many applications ( Corel , AI , Freehand,... ) .
Binary and ascii representations exist.Might be worth a look .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>CGM exists since about 1985, is standardized by ISO and supported by many applications (Corel, AI, Freehand,...).
Binary and ascii representations exist.Might be worth a look.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28130981</id>
	<title>Re:Webkit?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243508580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a developer who uses SVG: Webkit isn't a very good SVG viewer.  Depending on what I'm doing, I've found it's sometimes equal to, but often worse than, Gecko's SVG rendering.  (I'd suggest Gecko, but it's not exactly small.)</p><p>If you're writing desktop software and don't specifically need SVG, but simply vector graphics, I'd use a native library like Cairo.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a developer who uses SVG : Webkit is n't a very good SVG viewer .
Depending on what I 'm doing , I 've found it 's sometimes equal to , but often worse than , Gecko 's SVG rendering .
( I 'd suggest Gecko , but it 's not exactly small .
) If you 're writing desktop software and do n't specifically need SVG , but simply vector graphics , I 'd use a native library like Cairo .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a developer who uses SVG: Webkit isn't a very good SVG viewer.
Depending on what I'm doing, I've found it's sometimes equal to, but often worse than, Gecko's SVG rendering.
(I'd suggest Gecko, but it's not exactly small.
)If you're writing desktop software and don't specifically need SVG, but simply vector graphics, I'd use a native library like Cairo.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127915</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128251</id>
	<title>XAML is free. Quit spreading FUD.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243541820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open\_Specification\_Promise</p><p>XAML is not a UI language or graphics format.  It is an XML Based Application(Avalon) Markup Language.</p><p>What you want are xaml constructs made up of Paths and Glyphs.  Inkscape will export these with minor bugs to be fixed in your favorite text editor (last i checked it was putting a "px" after a pixel width, ie Stroke="3px" instead of Stroke="3").</p><p>You can print anything you want to an XPS file (under vista), then extract that xps and get the xaml out (an xps is a xaml + resources zipped in a file)</p><p>Under windows (DX10+) your UI will be accelerated on the GPU.  With any other alternative it's all software.</p><p>Or you can fuck around in vi or emacs like its 1984 and reinvent the wheel again because the wheels on the car are "too proprietary".</p><p>You could do a google search and find http://www.antigrain.com/, libsvg, and 100 other alternatives - but of course this article is only posted for ignoramus linux "users" to rail against the XAML "machine".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open \ _Specification \ _PromiseXAML is not a UI language or graphics format .
It is an XML Based Application ( Avalon ) Markup Language.What you want are xaml constructs made up of Paths and Glyphs .
Inkscape will export these with minor bugs to be fixed in your favorite text editor ( last i checked it was putting a " px " after a pixel width , ie Stroke = " 3px " instead of Stroke = " 3 " ) .You can print anything you want to an XPS file ( under vista ) , then extract that xps and get the xaml out ( an xps is a xaml + resources zipped in a file ) Under windows ( DX10 + ) your UI will be accelerated on the GPU .
With any other alternative it 's all software.Or you can fuck around in vi or emacs like its 1984 and reinvent the wheel again because the wheels on the car are " too proprietary " .You could do a google search and find http : //www.antigrain.com/ , libsvg , and 100 other alternatives - but of course this article is only posted for ignoramus linux " users " to rail against the XAML " machine " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open\_Specification\_PromiseXAML is not a UI language or graphics format.
It is an XML Based Application(Avalon) Markup Language.What you want are xaml constructs made up of Paths and Glyphs.
Inkscape will export these with minor bugs to be fixed in your favorite text editor (last i checked it was putting a "px" after a pixel width, ie Stroke="3px" instead of Stroke="3").You can print anything you want to an XPS file (under vista), then extract that xps and get the xaml out (an xps is a xaml + resources zipped in a file)Under windows (DX10+) your UI will be accelerated on the GPU.
With any other alternative it's all software.Or you can fuck around in vi or emacs like its 1984 and reinvent the wheel again because the wheels on the car are "too proprietary".You could do a google search and find http://www.antigrain.com/, libsvg, and 100 other alternatives - but of course this article is only posted for ignoramus linux "users" to rail against the XAML "machine".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28135319</id>
	<title>Re:Webkit?</title>
	<author>redblue</author>
	<datestamp>1243537680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In the process of developing the library, I built an SVG viewer to test it. The nice thing about having a GDI+ based SVG viewer is that it becomes trival to generate EMF+ files using it. Something that I can't do with any SVG renderer out there.<br>Also, having restricted myself to Windows, I was able to leverage MSXML. Though I am seriously pondering using tinyxml or some such library.<br>With that aside, QT has it's share of issues. It's not completely free and it has a heavy file size footprint, at least on Windows. AFAIK.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In the process of developing the library , I built an SVG viewer to test it .
The nice thing about having a GDI + based SVG viewer is that it becomes trival to generate EMF + files using it .
Something that I ca n't do with any SVG renderer out there.Also , having restricted myself to Windows , I was able to leverage MSXML .
Though I am seriously pondering using tinyxml or some such library.With that aside , QT has it 's share of issues .
It 's not completely free and it has a heavy file size footprint , at least on Windows .
AFAIK .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the process of developing the library, I built an SVG viewer to test it.
The nice thing about having a GDI+ based SVG viewer is that it becomes trival to generate EMF+ files using it.
Something that I can't do with any SVG renderer out there.Also, having restricted myself to Windows, I was able to leverage MSXML.
Though I am seriously pondering using tinyxml or some such library.With that aside, QT has it's share of issues.
It's not completely free and it has a heavy file size footprint, at least on Windows.
AFAIK.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127915</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28134683</id>
	<title>Re:Inkscape?</title>
	<author>drakaan</author>
	<datestamp>1243531620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If I recall correctly, Firefox can display SVG...maybe a talk with Mozilla devs is in order?</htmltext>
<tokenext>If I recall correctly , Firefox can display SVG...maybe a talk with Mozilla devs is in order ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I recall correctly, Firefox can display SVG...maybe a talk with Mozilla devs is in order?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127861</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28129091</id>
	<title>Boost google SOC 2007 svg\_plot</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243544280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've used this one, the svg\_plot library in the boost sandbox, developed as part of the google summer of code 2007<br>http://svn.boost.org/svn/boost/sandbox/SOC/2007/visualization/libs/svg\_plot/doc/pdf/svg\_plot.pdf</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've used this one , the svg \ _plot library in the boost sandbox , developed as part of the google summer of code 2007http : //svn.boost.org/svn/boost/sandbox/SOC/2007/visualization/libs/svg \ _plot/doc/pdf/svg \ _plot.pdf</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've used this one, the svg\_plot library in the boost sandbox, developed as part of the google summer of code 2007http://svn.boost.org/svn/boost/sandbox/SOC/2007/visualization/libs/svg\_plot/doc/pdf/svg\_plot.pdf</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28136161</id>
	<title>Re:TWO WHOLE MEGABYTES?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243591380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work on embedded applications for digital TVs.  Some of the latest platforms have "huge" amounts of RAM and flash disks for storing programs - e.g. I'm working on a board with 64MB RAM and 16MB Flash.  Five years ago we were working in 4MB RAM / 1MB Flash.</p><p>(And remember the Flash is compressed, so code has to be decompressed to RAM before it can be run.  We also need large chunks of RAM for video buffers - just decoding a High Definition video needs over 12MB of RAM for the uncompressed video, plus extra buffers for the compressed video coming to/from the hard disk).</p><p>So 2MB is still a lot.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work on embedded applications for digital TVs .
Some of the latest platforms have " huge " amounts of RAM and flash disks for storing programs - e.g .
I 'm working on a board with 64MB RAM and 16MB Flash .
Five years ago we were working in 4MB RAM / 1MB Flash .
( And remember the Flash is compressed , so code has to be decompressed to RAM before it can be run .
We also need large chunks of RAM for video buffers - just decoding a High Definition video needs over 12MB of RAM for the uncompressed video , plus extra buffers for the compressed video coming to/from the hard disk ) .So 2MB is still a lot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work on embedded applications for digital TVs.
Some of the latest platforms have "huge" amounts of RAM and flash disks for storing programs - e.g.
I'm working on a board with 64MB RAM and 16MB Flash.
Five years ago we were working in 4MB RAM / 1MB Flash.
(And remember the Flash is compressed, so code has to be decompressed to RAM before it can be run.
We also need large chunks of RAM for video buffers - just decoding a High Definition video needs over 12MB of RAM for the uncompressed video, plus extra buffers for the compressed video coming to/from the hard disk).So 2MB is still a lot.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128205</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128309</id>
	<title>blah blah, I don't know what I am saying blah blah</title>
	<author>Kludge</author>
	<datestamp>1243541940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The pragmatic reality is that SVG is becoming standard very quickly.  Have a look at wikipedia.org. (Have you heard of it?)</p><p><div class="quote"><p> " proprietary" solutions are actually the way to go.  Read the actual license terms for them and you'll see there's actually NOTHING that they prevent you to do, that you'll likely to have any interest in doing.</p></div><p>Yes, I'm sure that Adobe will have no problem with him using their library in his program that he gives out to all his friends and clients.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The pragmatic reality is that SVG is becoming standard very quickly .
Have a look at wikipedia.org .
( Have you heard of it ?
) " proprietary " solutions are actually the way to go .
Read the actual license terms for them and you 'll see there 's actually NOTHING that they prevent you to do , that you 'll likely to have any interest in doing.Yes , I 'm sure that Adobe will have no problem with him using their library in his program that he gives out to all his friends and clients .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The pragmatic reality is that SVG is becoming standard very quickly.
Have a look at wikipedia.org.
(Have you heard of it?
) " proprietary" solutions are actually the way to go.
Read the actual license terms for them and you'll see there's actually NOTHING that they prevent you to do, that you'll likely to have any interest in doing.Yes, I'm sure that Adobe will have no problem with him using their library in his program that he gives out to all his friends and clients.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127935</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128757</id>
	<title>Qt</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243543140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>try using Qt library. It has some SVG support. Although I am not sure how complete it is...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>try using Qt library .
It has some SVG support .
Although I am not sure how complete it is.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>try using Qt library.
It has some SVG support.
Although I am not sure how complete it is...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128527</id>
	<title>Mobile SVG</title>
	<author>SpaceToast</author>
	<datestamp>1243542480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd suggest looking at projects for bringing SVG to smartphones.  You may find an SVG library for Windows CE that would compile under (vanilla) Windows -- probably not feature complete, but chances are the Mobile SVG specs are enough for your needs.  I believe there is at least one very trim branch of Firefox underway, though SVG support may be one of the things that it trimmed.  Good luck.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd suggest looking at projects for bringing SVG to smartphones .
You may find an SVG library for Windows CE that would compile under ( vanilla ) Windows -- probably not feature complete , but chances are the Mobile SVG specs are enough for your needs .
I believe there is at least one very trim branch of Firefox underway , though SVG support may be one of the things that it trimmed .
Good luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd suggest looking at projects for bringing SVG to smartphones.
You may find an SVG library for Windows CE that would compile under (vanilla) Windows -- probably not feature complete, but chances are the Mobile SVG specs are enough for your needs.
I believe there is at least one very trim branch of Firefox underway, though SVG support may be one of the things that it trimmed.
Good luck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28129129</id>
	<title>Re:Inkscape?</title>
	<author>goldaryn</author>
	<datestamp>1243501200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>&gt; I haven't looked at the code, but is there something that you can leverage from Inkscape?<br> <br>
Not looking at the code: +1.<br>
Answer indicative of having RTFA: -10.<br>
---<br>
Net gain/loss: -9</htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; I have n't looked at the code , but is there something that you can leverage from Inkscape ?
Not looking at the code : + 1 .
Answer indicative of having RTFA : -10 .
--- Net gain/loss : -9</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; I haven't looked at the code, but is there something that you can leverage from Inkscape?
Not looking at the code: +1.
Answer indicative of having RTFA: -10.
---
Net gain/loss: -9</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127861</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28130493</id>
	<title>Re:Webkit?</title>
	<author>ciroknight</author>
	<datestamp>1243506300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>QT/Webkit once you've got all of the dependencies down is over 20 megs. Cairo is an order of magnitude smaller.
<br> <br>
The fact is, vector art isn't cheap. Not computationally, not memory wise. Making a real go at it (not just faking a bunch of it, as many libraries do for speed) takes time, it takes work, it takes a bunch of libraries (XML parser, CSS parser, layout engine, etc). Putting any size constraint on it should at least take these things into account, which this developer quite clearly has not.
<br> <br>
I'd suggest he do his homework and look into the libraries that currently exist.</htmltext>
<tokenext>QT/Webkit once you 've got all of the dependencies down is over 20 megs .
Cairo is an order of magnitude smaller .
The fact is , vector art is n't cheap .
Not computationally , not memory wise .
Making a real go at it ( not just faking a bunch of it , as many libraries do for speed ) takes time , it takes work , it takes a bunch of libraries ( XML parser , CSS parser , layout engine , etc ) .
Putting any size constraint on it should at least take these things into account , which this developer quite clearly has not .
I 'd suggest he do his homework and look into the libraries that currently exist .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>QT/Webkit once you've got all of the dependencies down is over 20 megs.
Cairo is an order of magnitude smaller.
The fact is, vector art isn't cheap.
Not computationally, not memory wise.
Making a real go at it (not just faking a bunch of it, as many libraries do for speed) takes time, it takes work, it takes a bunch of libraries (XML parser, CSS parser, layout engine, etc).
Putting any size constraint on it should at least take these things into account, which this developer quite clearly has not.
I'd suggest he do his homework and look into the libraries that currently exist.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127915</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28129119</id>
	<title>Re:"The non-open and proprietary..." blah blah</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243544340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Read the actual license terms for them and you'll see there's actually NOTHING that they prevent you to do, that you'll likely to have any interest in doing.</p></div><p>For now.</p><p>But they may change them which they can do because they own them.</p><p>My Brother got stung badly developing for a 'community' game engine which was subsequently sold, and the new owner started charging to distribute the libraries.</p><p>If its open source your development can't be marooned like this.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Read the actual license terms for them and you 'll see there 's actually NOTHING that they prevent you to do , that you 'll likely to have any interest in doing.For now.But they may change them which they can do because they own them.My Brother got stung badly developing for a 'community ' game engine which was subsequently sold , and the new owner started charging to distribute the libraries.If its open source your development ca n't be marooned like this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Read the actual license terms for them and you'll see there's actually NOTHING that they prevent you to do, that you'll likely to have any interest in doing.For now.But they may change them which they can do because they own them.My Brother got stung badly developing for a 'community' game engine which was subsequently sold, and the new owner started charging to distribute the libraries.If its open source your development can't be marooned like this.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127935</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128221</id>
	<title>If you have the time/energy, then yes, please do.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243541760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But please make it work cross-platform through SDL and/or OpenGL or AGG.</p><p>If it is cross-platform, I could see there being some interest at least in the indie game development community.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But please make it work cross-platform through SDL and/or OpenGL or AGG.If it is cross-platform , I could see there being some interest at least in the indie game development community .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But please make it work cross-platform through SDL and/or OpenGL or AGG.If it is cross-platform, I could see there being some interest at least in the indie game development community.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128769</id>
	<title>Improvements eh?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243543140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>&gt; Windows<br>
&gt; can you improve <br> <br>Well...</htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; Windows &gt; can you improve Well.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; Windows
&gt; can you improve  Well...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128169</id>
	<title>Huh?</title>
	<author>harryandthehenderson</author>
	<datestamp>1243541580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>minimal system requirements</p></div><p><div class="quote"><p>2. Flash/SWG, 3. Silverlight/XAML</p></div><p>Does not compute.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>minimal system requirements2 .
Flash/SWG , 3 .
Silverlight/XAMLDoes not compute .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>minimal system requirements2.
Flash/SWG, 3.
Silverlight/XAMLDoes not compute.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28129739</id>
	<title>SDL\_svg</title>
	<author>zakeria</author>
	<datestamp>1243503300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>works for me. <a href="http://sdlsvg.sourceforge.net/" title="sourceforge.net" rel="nofollow">http://sdlsvg.sourceforge.net/</a> [sourceforge.net]</htmltext>
<tokenext>works for me .
http : //sdlsvg.sourceforge.net/ [ sourceforge.net ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>works for me.
http://sdlsvg.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128939</id>
	<title>Antigrain rules</title>
	<author>Cyberax</author>
	<datestamp>1243543680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The author of Antigrain is a perfectionist.</p><p>Just look here - <a href="http://www.antigrain.com/svg/index.html" title="antigrain.com">http://www.antigrain.com/svg/index.html</a> [antigrain.com] . And version 2.4 is under BSD license.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The author of Antigrain is a perfectionist.Just look here - http : //www.antigrain.com/svg/index.html [ antigrain.com ] .
And version 2.4 is under BSD license .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The author of Antigrain is a perfectionist.Just look here - http://www.antigrain.com/svg/index.html [antigrain.com] .
And version 2.4 is under BSD license.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28138899</id>
	<title>For Windows, use GDI+ as a basis?</title>
	<author>tjstork</author>
	<datestamp>1243612260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would think that if you are looking at C++ in Windows that you would probably consider using GDI+ as the basis for an SVG style render.  GDI+ fits in nicely with Windows DC model, but is very cleanly object oriented.</p><p>And um, I would think that, by its nature, SVG is not going to be all that small....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would think that if you are looking at C + + in Windows that you would probably consider using GDI + as the basis for an SVG style render .
GDI + fits in nicely with Windows DC model , but is very cleanly object oriented.And um , I would think that , by its nature , SVG is not going to be all that small... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would think that if you are looking at C++ in Windows that you would probably consider using GDI+ as the basis for an SVG style render.
GDI+ fits in nicely with Windows DC model, but is very cleanly object oriented.And um, I would think that, by its nature, SVG is not going to be all that small....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128205</id>
	<title>TWO WHOLE MEGABYTES?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243541700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>2 megabytes of overhead?  It ain't 1988 anymore, 2MB barely even registers these days.</p><p>I get the whole Slashdot obsession with bloat, but there's a limit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>2 megabytes of overhead ?
It ai n't 1988 anymore , 2MB barely even registers these days.I get the whole Slashdot obsession with bloat , but there 's a limit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>2 megabytes of overhead?
It ain't 1988 anymore, 2MB barely even registers these days.I get the whole Slashdot obsession with bloat, but there's a limit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28129055</id>
	<title>Re:Inkscape?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243544160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Inkscape is a good editor, but you will probably spend a lot of time trying to figure out a way to get the library out of the program.  It sounds to me like redblue recreated parts of librsvg, which may be the free lightweight library he is looking for.  As an aside, I think if openoffice had a plugin using librsvg (or some other well-maintained svg library) to render (even complex) svg files so they look right, svg adoption would go much faster.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Inkscape is a good editor , but you will probably spend a lot of time trying to figure out a way to get the library out of the program .
It sounds to me like redblue recreated parts of librsvg , which may be the free lightweight library he is looking for .
As an aside , I think if openoffice had a plugin using librsvg ( or some other well-maintained svg library ) to render ( even complex ) svg files so they look right , svg adoption would go much faster .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Inkscape is a good editor, but you will probably spend a lot of time trying to figure out a way to get the library out of the program.
It sounds to me like redblue recreated parts of librsvg, which may be the free lightweight library he is looking for.
As an aside, I think if openoffice had a plugin using librsvg (or some other well-maintained svg library) to render (even complex) svg files so they look right, svg adoption would go much faster.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127861</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28135463</id>
	<title>OpenVG</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243539960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>http://www.khronos.org/openvg/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.khronos.org/openvg/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.khronos.org/openvg/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28135485</id>
	<title>Re:"The non-open and proprietary..." blah blah</title>
	<author>redblue</author>
	<datestamp>1243540200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's as easy as 1-2-3 to use the many variety of bitmap formats because there is either built-in OS support for them or good focused free open source libraries out there.<br>It has not been so for vector art. I just can't do a Draw(VectorFile, HDC/Gdiplus::Graphics), though I can do so for bitmaps. EMF+ gives you that functionality, but is non-portable and non-editable.<br>GDI+ implements so many SVG contructs close to spec it's scary. It's almost as if XAML was designed to spite SVG. That "intent" is so clear to me now that I have implemented a GDI+ based SVG renderer that I can't help marvel that someone like you would willingly drink the Microbe cool-aid. Unless you are their agent, of course. As I once was, in another life time.<br>No it is quite clear that The Microbe strategy is to Embrace, Extend and Extinguish and they will do (or not do) anything in their power to extend their defacto cartel on the graphics market.<br>Even if SVG, and my minor inconsequential efforts at building a rendering library for it are just a thorn at the side of the evil empire, I'm just happy to do my bit in twisting it in.<br>Unless, of course, they are willing to pay me billions to quit. In which case I'll refer to them as a Symbiote. But I don't think they are willing to do the name change just yet<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's as easy as 1-2-3 to use the many variety of bitmap formats because there is either built-in OS support for them or good focused free open source libraries out there.It has not been so for vector art .
I just ca n't do a Draw ( VectorFile , HDC/Gdiplus : : Graphics ) , though I can do so for bitmaps .
EMF + gives you that functionality , but is non-portable and non-editable.GDI + implements so many SVG contructs close to spec it 's scary .
It 's almost as if XAML was designed to spite SVG .
That " intent " is so clear to me now that I have implemented a GDI + based SVG renderer that I ca n't help marvel that someone like you would willingly drink the Microbe cool-aid .
Unless you are their agent , of course .
As I once was , in another life time.No it is quite clear that The Microbe strategy is to Embrace , Extend and Extinguish and they will do ( or not do ) anything in their power to extend their defacto cartel on the graphics market.Even if SVG , and my minor inconsequential efforts at building a rendering library for it are just a thorn at the side of the evil empire , I 'm just happy to do my bit in twisting it in.Unless , of course , they are willing to pay me billions to quit .
In which case I 'll refer to them as a Symbiote .
But I do n't think they are willing to do the name change just yet : - ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's as easy as 1-2-3 to use the many variety of bitmap formats because there is either built-in OS support for them or good focused free open source libraries out there.It has not been so for vector art.
I just can't do a Draw(VectorFile, HDC/Gdiplus::Graphics), though I can do so for bitmaps.
EMF+ gives you that functionality, but is non-portable and non-editable.GDI+ implements so many SVG contructs close to spec it's scary.
It's almost as if XAML was designed to spite SVG.
That "intent" is so clear to me now that I have implemented a GDI+ based SVG renderer that I can't help marvel that someone like you would willingly drink the Microbe cool-aid.
Unless you are their agent, of course.
As I once was, in another life time.No it is quite clear that The Microbe strategy is to Embrace, Extend and Extinguish and they will do (or not do) anything in their power to extend their defacto cartel on the graphics market.Even if SVG, and my minor inconsequential efforts at building a rendering library for it are just a thorn at the side of the evil empire, I'm just happy to do my bit in twisting it in.Unless, of course, they are willing to pay me billions to quit.
In which case I'll refer to them as a Symbiote.
But I don't think they are willing to do the name change just yet :-).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127935</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127813</id>
	<title>fp</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243540620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>props to all dead homiez</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>props to all dead homiez</tokentext>
<sentencetext>props to all dead homiez</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28135151</id>
	<title>The 2M requirement</title>
	<author>redblue</author>
	<datestamp>1243535880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some of you have responded negatively to the need of rejecting a library with &gt;2M overhead. Allow me to address that instead of responding individually.<br>Regrettably, I was unclear about what that 2M referred to. I totally meant the file size, not the memory footprint. The real utility of vector graphics shows up on large displays, meaning large buffers in the 5-30M RAM range, so imposing a RAM limitation is not wise per se.<br>The reasons for wanting a small file size are threefold:<br>1. Lower bandwidth cost<br>2. Better NUMA optimization<br>3. Smaller surface area for bugs</p><p>1. Bandwidth: As an online publisher, you have to pay for every byte that is served over the wire to the customers. It's a minuscule cost when there are only a thousand downloads. But if you ever dream of millions or more of downloads, the cost of that adds up rapidly. That's when a library that is only 200K is better than a 2M one.<br>2. Faster Memory performance: Given the NUMA nature of modern computers, you get better performance the higher up in the hierarchy you are. Hence, there is a greater chance of your program's working set sitting in the L1 cache if it is small.<br>3. Bugs: This is probably doesn't need much explaining, since smaller programs are easier to make bug free.</p><p>I think there are four major inflection points today as far as file size for programs is concerned:<br>size &lt; 100K<br>100K &lt;= size &lt; 5M<br>5M &lt;= size &lt; 50M<br>size &gt;= 50M</p><p>Without a doubt Cairo is appropriate for the latter two, i.e. if your project is &gt;=5M in size.<br>But if your SVG artwork+code is already &lt;1M, it makes no sense to add &gt;2M code overhead when a 200K library can do the job. I think a lot of software is (or should be) in that category. The only reason it isn't so is because everybody is using bitmaps that up the file size when vector art is more appropriate. They do that because there is no easy native OS support.</p><p>Now someone possibly more knowledgeable than I mentioned here that Cairo's footprint might actually be smaller (maybe 1M) if you tweak with it enough, so it might be worth taking a second look at. But I hope my thoughts will convince you that pursuing a smaller binary size is a worthy endeavour, especially in a library.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some of you have responded negatively to the need of rejecting a library with &gt; 2M overhead .
Allow me to address that instead of responding individually.Regrettably , I was unclear about what that 2M referred to .
I totally meant the file size , not the memory footprint .
The real utility of vector graphics shows up on large displays , meaning large buffers in the 5-30M RAM range , so imposing a RAM limitation is not wise per se.The reasons for wanting a small file size are threefold : 1 .
Lower bandwidth cost2 .
Better NUMA optimization3 .
Smaller surface area for bugs1 .
Bandwidth : As an online publisher , you have to pay for every byte that is served over the wire to the customers .
It 's a minuscule cost when there are only a thousand downloads .
But if you ever dream of millions or more of downloads , the cost of that adds up rapidly .
That 's when a library that is only 200K is better than a 2M one.2 .
Faster Memory performance : Given the NUMA nature of modern computers , you get better performance the higher up in the hierarchy you are .
Hence , there is a greater chance of your program 's working set sitting in the L1 cache if it is small.3 .
Bugs : This is probably does n't need much explaining , since smaller programs are easier to make bug free.I think there are four major inflection points today as far as file size for programs is concerned : size 100K 5M size &gt; = 50MWithout a doubt Cairo is appropriate for the latter two , i.e .
if your project is &gt; = 5M in size.But if your SVG artwork + code is already 2M code overhead when a 200K library can do the job .
I think a lot of software is ( or should be ) in that category .
The only reason it is n't so is because everybody is using bitmaps that up the file size when vector art is more appropriate .
They do that because there is no easy native OS support.Now someone possibly more knowledgeable than I mentioned here that Cairo 's footprint might actually be smaller ( maybe 1M ) if you tweak with it enough , so it might be worth taking a second look at .
But I hope my thoughts will convince you that pursuing a smaller binary size is a worthy endeavour , especially in a library .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some of you have responded negatively to the need of rejecting a library with &gt;2M overhead.
Allow me to address that instead of responding individually.Regrettably, I was unclear about what that 2M referred to.
I totally meant the file size, not the memory footprint.
The real utility of vector graphics shows up on large displays, meaning large buffers in the 5-30M RAM range, so imposing a RAM limitation is not wise per se.The reasons for wanting a small file size are threefold:1.
Lower bandwidth cost2.
Better NUMA optimization3.
Smaller surface area for bugs1.
Bandwidth: As an online publisher, you have to pay for every byte that is served over the wire to the customers.
It's a minuscule cost when there are only a thousand downloads.
But if you ever dream of millions or more of downloads, the cost of that adds up rapidly.
That's when a library that is only 200K is better than a 2M one.2.
Faster Memory performance: Given the NUMA nature of modern computers, you get better performance the higher up in the hierarchy you are.
Hence, there is a greater chance of your program's working set sitting in the L1 cache if it is small.3.
Bugs: This is probably doesn't need much explaining, since smaller programs are easier to make bug free.I think there are four major inflection points today as far as file size for programs is concerned:size 100K 5M size &gt;= 50MWithout a doubt Cairo is appropriate for the latter two, i.e.
if your project is &gt;=5M in size.But if your SVG artwork+code is already 2M code overhead when a 200K library can do the job.
I think a lot of software is (or should be) in that category.
The only reason it isn't so is because everybody is using bitmaps that up the file size when vector art is more appropriate.
They do that because there is no easy native OS support.Now someone possibly more knowledgeable than I mentioned here that Cairo's footprint might actually be smaller (maybe 1M) if you tweak with it enough, so it might be worth taking a second look at.
But I hope my thoughts will convince you that pursuing a smaller binary size is a worthy endeavour, especially in a library.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28133111</id>
	<title>Juce</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243519200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Im surprised no one has mentioned the Juce library. It has svg support for multiple platforms.<br>http://www.rawmaterialsoftware.com/juce/index.php</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Im surprised no one has mentioned the Juce library .
It has svg support for multiple platforms.http : //www.rawmaterialsoftware.com/juce/index.php</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Im surprised no one has mentioned the Juce library.
It has svg support for multiple platforms.http://www.rawmaterialsoftware.com/juce/index.php</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28135713</id>
	<title>Re:Other Formats</title>
	<author>redblue</author>
	<datestamp>1243629180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I had that same dilemma going in since I dislike the verbose XML syntax. I hope my experience is of some help.<br>One of the ideas I had early on was, after reading in the SVG in memory, to save it back in a different "superior" file format to save space. The intent was to read this easier format and render it with no XML overhead. Turns out there was little gain, if any. SVG is fairly lean, as is, after compression. All the repetitive elements get compressed away to nothing by arithmetic compression.<br>The XML processing overhead is miniscule (probably 4-10K) since I used MSXML. Even so I am thinking of using tinyxml, which may not be too much of an overhead.<br>As long as you don't start using Schemas and other heavier XML constructs, which many SVG editors don't support anyway.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I had that same dilemma going in since I dislike the verbose XML syntax .
I hope my experience is of some help.One of the ideas I had early on was , after reading in the SVG in memory , to save it back in a different " superior " file format to save space .
The intent was to read this easier format and render it with no XML overhead .
Turns out there was little gain , if any .
SVG is fairly lean , as is , after compression .
All the repetitive elements get compressed away to nothing by arithmetic compression.The XML processing overhead is miniscule ( probably 4-10K ) since I used MSXML .
Even so I am thinking of using tinyxml , which may not be too much of an overhead.As long as you do n't start using Schemas and other heavier XML constructs , which many SVG editors do n't support anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had that same dilemma going in since I dislike the verbose XML syntax.
I hope my experience is of some help.One of the ideas I had early on was, after reading in the SVG in memory, to save it back in a different "superior" file format to save space.
The intent was to read this easier format and render it with no XML overhead.
Turns out there was little gain, if any.
SVG is fairly lean, as is, after compression.
All the repetitive elements get compressed away to nothing by arithmetic compression.The XML processing overhead is miniscule (probably 4-10K) since I used MSXML.
Even so I am thinking of using tinyxml, which may not be too much of an overhead.As long as you don't start using Schemas and other heavier XML constructs, which many SVG editors don't support anyway.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128467</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127915</id>
	<title>Webkit?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243540920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I&#205;'d say QT/Webkit is the best bet currently. That will give you XML tools and a decent SVG view(er).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I   'd say QT/Webkit is the best bet currently .
That will give you XML tools and a decent SVG view ( er ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IÍ'd say QT/Webkit is the best bet currently.
That will give you XML tools and a decent SVG view(er).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28131349</id>
	<title>Inkscape uses Cairo</title>
	<author>Giant Electronic Bra</author>
	<datestamp>1243510380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Inkscape uses Cairo for all its rendering. Thus it is not going to be lighter weight than Cairo. There may be code in there that would provide a more useful interface, especially for C++ code. Reuse is always a good idea...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Inkscape uses Cairo for all its rendering .
Thus it is not going to be lighter weight than Cairo .
There may be code in there that would provide a more useful interface , especially for C + + code .
Reuse is always a good idea.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Inkscape uses Cairo for all its rendering.
Thus it is not going to be lighter weight than Cairo.
There may be code in there that would provide a more useful interface, especially for C++ code.
Reuse is always a good idea...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127861</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28127887</id>
	<title>Trim cairo?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243540860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It looks like your needs/game only use basic vectors, nothing fancy like blends, blurs.  Could you just strip out much of the code from the SVG source that does stuff you don't foresee using?</htmltext>
<tokenext>It looks like your needs/game only use basic vectors , nothing fancy like blends , blurs .
Could you just strip out much of the code from the SVG source that does stuff you do n't foresee using ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It looks like your needs/game only use basic vectors, nothing fancy like blends, blurs.
Could you just strip out much of the code from the SVG source that does stuff you don't foresee using?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28136429</id>
	<title>updated libsvg</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1243595160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>An updated libsvg library can be found here <a href="http://svg2swf.sourceforge.net/" title="sourceforge.net" rel="nofollow">http://svg2swf.sourceforge.net/</a> [sourceforge.net]. With a little work the dependencies can be reduced to just expat and uriparser.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>An updated libsvg library can be found here http : //svg2swf.sourceforge.net/ [ sourceforge.net ] .
With a little work the dependencies can be reduced to just expat and uriparser .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An updated libsvg library can be found here http://svg2swf.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net].
With a little work the dependencies can be reduced to just expat and uriparser.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28133317</id>
	<title>C#.NET vector graphics library?</title>
	<author>Stiletto</author>
	<datestamp>1243520520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At the risk of offending the geek-gods, would anyone be able to answer the same question, but for C#/.NET?  Everything I've found so far for rendering SVG written in C# is either "under development" or "abandoned".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At the risk of offending the geek-gods , would anyone be able to answer the same question , but for C # /.NET ?
Everything I 've found so far for rendering SVG written in C # is either " under development " or " abandoned " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At the risk of offending the geek-gods, would anyone be able to answer the same question, but for C#/.NET?
Everything I've found so far for rendering SVG written in C# is either "under development" or "abandoned".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28132187</id>
	<title>Re:Other Formats</title>
	<author>ciroknight</author>
	<datestamp>1243514640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>PostScript, PDF are still the winners in terms of adoption and efficiency. PostScript is more burdensome code-wise, so most everyone today will recommend PDF (it's essentially "PS-lite") or even a subset of PDF (most commonly throwing out things like quadradic Bezier curves and higher-level filtering).
<br> <br>
Most modern Windowing systems are heavily influenced by these as well; Cairo is essentially DisplayPDF (using slightly different compositing operators; closer to the original Porter-Duff ones), Quartz even more so than Cairo (implements filtering operators, etc). Even Windows has gotten off the bitmap and uses a similar model for their display system in XP/Vista with GDI+.</htmltext>
<tokenext>PostScript , PDF are still the winners in terms of adoption and efficiency .
PostScript is more burdensome code-wise , so most everyone today will recommend PDF ( it 's essentially " PS-lite " ) or even a subset of PDF ( most commonly throwing out things like quadradic Bezier curves and higher-level filtering ) .
Most modern Windowing systems are heavily influenced by these as well ; Cairo is essentially DisplayPDF ( using slightly different compositing operators ; closer to the original Porter-Duff ones ) , Quartz even more so than Cairo ( implements filtering operators , etc ) .
Even Windows has gotten off the bitmap and uses a similar model for their display system in XP/Vista with GDI + .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PostScript, PDF are still the winners in terms of adoption and efficiency.
PostScript is more burdensome code-wise, so most everyone today will recommend PDF (it's essentially "PS-lite") or even a subset of PDF (most commonly throwing out things like quadradic Bezier curves and higher-level filtering).
Most modern Windowing systems are heavily influenced by these as well; Cairo is essentially DisplayPDF (using slightly different compositing operators; closer to the original Porter-Duff ones), Quartz even more so than Cairo (implements filtering operators, etc).
Even Windows has gotten off the bitmap and uses a similar model for their display system in XP/Vista with GDI+.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128467</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28132411</id>
	<title>Re:Cairo Graphics Librar</title>
	<author>SanityInAnarchy</author>
	<datestamp>1243515600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>RTFS, wow.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>RTFS , wow .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>RTFS, wow.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28129445</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28141219</id>
	<title>Re:Webkit?</title>
	<author>jgrahn</author>
	<datestamp>1243623780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The fact is, vector art isn't cheap. Not computationally, not memory wise.</p></div></blockquote><p>Really? Why not? I would have thought it's just Bresenham and a bunch of other familiar algorithms
(splines, clipping, antialiasing and stuff) into a raster buffer.
("Cheap" is relative. I'm thinking "cheap" as in "insignificant load on a computer from this millenium";
I remember that my Amiga 500 wasn't all that good for rendering Postscript.)
We're talking 2D, non-animated, right?</p><blockquote><div><p>it takes a bunch of libraries (XML parser, CSS parser, layout engine, etc)</p></div></blockquote><p>You need a bloody XML parser to do vector graphics?
Or are you referring specifially to SVG now?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The fact is , vector art is n't cheap .
Not computationally , not memory wise.Really ?
Why not ?
I would have thought it 's just Bresenham and a bunch of other familiar algorithms ( splines , clipping , antialiasing and stuff ) into a raster buffer .
( " Cheap " is relative .
I 'm thinking " cheap " as in " insignificant load on a computer from this millenium " ; I remember that my Amiga 500 was n't all that good for rendering Postscript .
) We 're talking 2D , non-animated , right ? it takes a bunch of libraries ( XML parser , CSS parser , layout engine , etc ) You need a bloody XML parser to do vector graphics ?
Or are you referring specifially to SVG now ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The fact is, vector art isn't cheap.
Not computationally, not memory wise.Really?
Why not?
I would have thought it's just Bresenham and a bunch of other familiar algorithms
(splines, clipping, antialiasing and stuff) into a raster buffer.
("Cheap" is relative.
I'm thinking "cheap" as in "insignificant load on a computer from this millenium";
I remember that my Amiga 500 wasn't all that good for rendering Postscript.
)
We're talking 2D, non-animated, right?it takes a bunch of libraries (XML parser, CSS parser, layout engine, etc)You need a bloody XML parser to do vector graphics?
Or are you referring specifially to SVG now?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28130493</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28130645</id>
	<title>LibBoard?</title>
	<author>kabloom</author>
	<datestamp>1243506960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://libboard.sourceforge.net/" title="sourceforge.net">http://libboard.sourceforge.net/</a> [sourceforge.net]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //libboard.sourceforge.net/ [ sourceforge.net ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://libboard.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128441</id>
	<title>Re:TWO WHOLE MEGABYTES?</title>
	<author>mpapet</author>
	<datestamp>1243542300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, 2 whole megabytes may be too much.  Remember there are *vastly* more small/dumb computing devices out there than the big-old desktop PC.  So, maybe he's programming on a phone platform or some such and making a sincere effort to make something different.</p><p>I don't quite know what you are after, but I'll throw out SDL as a platform and SDL\_svg.  It may not fit in the requirements, but hey, it's worth a look.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , 2 whole megabytes may be too much .
Remember there are * vastly * more small/dumb computing devices out there than the big-old desktop PC .
So , maybe he 's programming on a phone platform or some such and making a sincere effort to make something different.I do n't quite know what you are after , but I 'll throw out SDL as a platform and SDL \ _svg .
It may not fit in the requirements , but hey , it 's worth a look .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, 2 whole megabytes may be too much.
Remember there are *vastly* more small/dumb computing devices out there than the big-old desktop PC.
So, maybe he's programming on a phone platform or some such and making a sincere effort to make something different.I don't quite know what you are after, but I'll throw out SDL as a platform and SDL\_svg.
It may not fit in the requirements, but hey, it's worth a look.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28128205</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_05_28_1826244.28136377</id>
	<title>My SVG Library</title>
	<author>JM Apocalypse</author>
	<datestamp>1243594260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been working on a similar problem in my spare time for quite some time now.  I needed a SVG library that was BSD-compatible, could draw any Adobe Illustrator SVG, and selectively enable or disable objects by their ID that was suitable for inclusion in a 3D game.</p><p>I couldn't find any library that fit the requirements, so I ended up writing a C++ library called Donner SVG.  It is heavily based on librsvg except written with SVG DOM in mind and for minimal dependencies.  It's only dependencies are Cairo, rapidxml, and libcroco, but none of libcroco's dependencies as I wrote a compatibility layer.  Additionally, the renderer can be easily swapped out to eliminate the Cairo requirement.</p><p>Some notable features:<br>- Ability to access the SVG document tree and modify it after loading an SVG.<br>- Supports all shapes and paint server types (radial and linear gradients with stops, solid colors, and transparency).<br>- CSS2 selector support.<br>- Bounding box calculation.</p><p>It renders static SVGs very well, but I don't consider it to be releasable yet.  My goal is to fully implement the #SVG-static feature string and use the library to implement a SVG extension for skeletal animation and inverse kinematics.</p><p>I'm willing to send a copy of the source over if anyone is interested, just contact me at "donner (at) jeffrules (dot) com".  It is licensed under the LGPL as parts of it are borrowed from librsvg.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been working on a similar problem in my spare time for quite some time now .
I needed a SVG library that was BSD-compatible , could draw any Adobe Illustrator SVG , and selectively enable or disable objects by their ID that was suitable for inclusion in a 3D game.I could n't find any library that fit the requirements , so I ended up writing a C + + library called Donner SVG .
It is heavily based on librsvg except written with SVG DOM in mind and for minimal dependencies .
It 's only dependencies are Cairo , rapidxml , and libcroco , but none of libcroco 's dependencies as I wrote a compatibility layer .
Additionally , the renderer can be easily swapped out to eliminate the Cairo requirement.Some notable features : - Ability to access the SVG document tree and modify it after loading an SVG.- Supports all shapes and paint server types ( radial and linear gradients with stops , solid colors , and transparency ) .- CSS2 selector support.- Bounding box calculation.It renders static SVGs very well , but I do n't consider it to be releasable yet .
My goal is to fully implement the # SVG-static feature string and use the library to implement a SVG extension for skeletal animation and inverse kinematics.I 'm willing to send a copy of the source over if anyone is interested , just contact me at " donner ( at ) jeffrules ( dot ) com " .
It is licensed under the LGPL as parts of it are borrowed from librsvg .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been working on a similar problem in my spare time for quite some time now.
I needed a SVG library that was BSD-compatible, could draw any Adobe Illustrator SVG, and selectively enable or disable objects by their ID that was suitable for inclusion in a 3D game.I couldn't find any library that fit the requirements, so I ended up writing a C++ library called Donner SVG.
It is heavily based on librsvg except written with SVG DOM in mind and for minimal dependencies.
It's only dependencies are Cairo, rapidxml, and libcroco, but none of libcroco's dependencies as I wrote a compatibility layer.
Additionally, the renderer can be easily swapped out to eliminate the Cairo requirement.Some notable features:- Ability to access the SVG document tree and modify it after loading an SVG.- Supports all shapes and paint server types (radial and linear gradients with stops, solid colors, and transparency).- CSS2 selector support.- Bounding box calculation.It renders static SVGs very well, but I don't consider it to be releasable yet.
My goal is to fully implement the #SVG-static feature string and use the library to implement a SVG extension for skeletal animation and inverse kinematics.I'm willing to send a copy of the source over if anyone is interested, just contact me at "donner (at) jeffrules (dot) com".
It is licensed under the LGPL as parts of it are borrowed from librsvg.</sentencetext>
</comment>
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